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Koberger is accused of murdering University of Idaho students Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zaina Kronodal, and Ethan Chapin. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Episode 4, Cracks in the Narrative. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell.
After being arrested in Pennsylvania and extradited, 28-year-old Brian Koburger is in prison awaiting trial for the murders of four University of Idaho students. Six months after police say the former PhD criminology student committed the brutal murders, Koburger appeared in an Idaho courtroom. The families of several of the victims watched the arraignment hearing from the gallery. After a brief glance toward the families, Koburger kept his head and eyes looking forward.
With his feet shackled and wearing an orange prison outfit, Koberger listened as the judge read the charges against him and explained that a conviction carried a penalty of life in prison or death. When the judge asked Koberger's attorney if he was ready to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty, attorney Ann Taylor declined.
The judge then answered a plea on behalf of Brian Coburger. The judge then set a trial date for October 2nd. While investigators believe they have their man, the case against Brian Coburger is far from airtight.
It's important to note that Brian Koberger has not been found guilty of any crimes. Monroe County Public Defender Jason LaBarre represented Koberger in Pennsylvania after his arrest.
LaBar is no longer working for Koberger, but has been a regular on TV and in the media, pushing back on the official police narrative. It's a strong circumstantial case, but the evidence, when it's viewed individually, you can attack that evidence as a defense attorney. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So at this point, officials are in the very early stages of laying out their case against the alleged killer, Brian Koberger.
Yeah, all that's been released is this 19 page probable cause affidavit. A probable cause affidavit is a summary of the evidence and circumstances of the arrest. It's usually written by the arresting officer and given to a judge for a review. And within these 19 pages, we learned a lot about the night of the massacre and how police zeroed in on Coburger specifically.
a lot of the evidence at this stage is merely circumstantial. Now, for listeners who don't know or need a reminder, circumstantial evidence is evidence of facts that the court can draw conclusions from. So in this case, the fact that we know Koberger's cell phone pinged off of towers near the scene of the crime points to the idea that he may have been around the area when these murders were committed. And when you put all of that together, it paints a pretty damning picture, but it's not direct evidence like DNA or being in possession of the murder weapon.
happen. We need to remember that everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And as Koberger's first attorney pointed out, the best way for any defense to attack the prosecution is to remind the jury that everything the prosecution has is circumstantial. Because at the end of the day, all the defense needs to do is find one jury member who has doubts about the case. And it's also important to note that likely investigators have more evidence than they're sharing at this point.
In the immediate aftermath of the brutal murders, Moscow police said the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, were home during the murders. But they did not wake up until later in the morning. That information was part of every timeline until December 20th, when Moscow PD removed it. Ten days later, when Brian Koberger was arrested, police stated in the probable cause affidavit that Dylan was not only awake, but had seen the attacker.
Here again, Jeff and Stephanie.
Regardless of what Dylan may or may not have seen, she and Bethany are both victims in all this. They lived through a serious trauma. They lost their friends and have been skewered by the media. It's just not right. The prosecution may be sympathetic to that, but they also have a case to close. And Dylan is the big star witness. And the question is, though, is she a reliable one?
Terrified, she remained frozen in place as the suspect walked past her and left out the sliding glass door behind her. There are some things we know based on the probable cause affidavit. We know that Dylan was, quote unquote, frozen in fear, that she heard some sort of cries from her roommates, and she saw a masked man who was slender but not muscular with bushy eyebrows.
Dylan's description definitely offers something, but again, it doesn't really link Brian Koberger to the murders. Not very muscular, having bushy eyebrows, that could describe a lot of people. She also made no mention of skin color or hair color.
While at first the information Dylan provided seemed to point the finger at Koberger, upon closer look it actually might be more helpful for the defense because this vague description could cause reasonable doubt amongst jury members. Detectives announced that they are interested in talking to the person or people in a white 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Electra. The first piece of evidence that appears to connect Brian Koberger to the crime is his white Hyundai Elantra.
It may be a big break in the case, a grainy image of a speeding car that could be the white Hyundai Elantra police are looking for. According to the probable cause affidavit, multiple security cameras caught a white Elantra driving past the home on King Road within minutes around the murders. Koberger's first defense attorney, Jason LaBar, points out that white Elantras are common cars and Koberger is just one of many owners of the four-door sedan.
The white Elantra can't be determined to be his white Elantra. I mean, there's circumstantial evidence indicating that it could potentially be his white Elantra, but there's certainly not direct evidence. Again, Jeff and Stephanie. We know that within days of the murders, police told the wider community to be on the lookout for a white Hyundai Elantra.
As a result, the officer at WSU found this exact type of car registered to Brian Koberger. Police also checked his records and noted that Koberger had changed his registration from Pennsylvania to Washington State on November 18th, which was just days after the murder. They don't have direct evidence that he's driving the white Elantra. Here's the problem. Police haven't provided any evidence that Koberger was actually driving the car speeding past the house on King Road.
As of this moment, there's no highway or red light camera photos, nothing. That we know of. And keep in mind at this point, we may not have all the information that the police does. That's true. And we also don't know what they found in the car. According to experts we talked to, if this was Koberger's car and he really did kill four people and then get in and drive away, it's likely that no matter how well he scrubbed and cleaned, there would be some sort of DNA evidence in that car from the night in question.
And I think it's worth noting that DNA can take weeks to process. And at the time of his arrest, investigators didn't have access to his car. However, now weeks later, they do. A key part of the prosecution of Brian Koberger will be putting him at the scene of the crime. Police also need to place Brian Koberger behind the wheel of the suspected vehicle. In the probable cause affidavit, investigators rely on historical cell site data to make this connection.
Here again, Jeff and Stephanie. So in an effort to track Koberger, police really had to rely on cell phone towers and to see where Koberger's cell phone was pinging from. A cell phone ping is the act of determining the estimated current location of a cell phone. This may be accomplished via GPS data or by using cell phone tower triangulation, which, as we know in this case, is what they used.
Police were able to get a search warrant for Koberger's cell phone records because he had been pulled over for a traffic violation prior and he gave police his cell phone number. Upon reviewing the records, police determined that Koberger's phone was connecting to towers in Moscow around that time and that his movements were very similar to what the alleged killer was doing at that time.
And so I think what we surmise from this is that we are all glued to our phones. Here's mine in my hand right now. So it stands to reason that if Koberger was in the car that night, so was his phone. However, it should be noted that locating a mobile phone based on a single cell phone tower places the phone in a broad area, but it cannot actually pinpoint the exact location. So it's not like this is 100% reliable science.
Cell phones are intimate devices. Their data knows a lot about us. If Kohlberger's phone was in his car, then he was likely in his car.
Once police began to hone in on Brian Coburger, they began looking at his movements around the time of the murders. He had given his cell phone number to a deputy during a previous traffic stop, so police got a search warrant for his cell phone records. A police review determined Coburger's phone was connecting to towers in the Moscow area and were similar to the movements of the suspected White Elantra investigators believed was the murder vehicle. But cell phone pings on a tower are not precise GPS location coordinates.
If it was GPS location coordinates, you're talking down to a meter as to where Brian Koberger was at the time of these crimes. Whereas a cell phone tower ping is that you're within a radius of that tower up to 20 miles. And obviously, Mr. Koberger lived within 10 miles of the University of Idaho where these crimes were committed. So certainly he could ping at any moment in time near the actual crime.
The night of the murders, Kohlberger's phone was tracked heading to Moscow before the attack, but his phone was off from 2:47 AM to 4:48 AM. So what you're saying is that this looks like what he's trying to conceal his location for these approximately two hours. Kohlberger's former attorney said, just because Kohlberger's phone pings at a tower doesn't mean much considering the short distance between Pullman, Washington, where Kohlberger lived and Moscow where the victims were murdered.
Right, because the phone data places him near the scene of the crime, but not actually at the scene of the crime. Now, his car's built-in computer may be a different story and provide a lot of data, but so far it has not been presented as evidence. When investigators began combing through the crime scene, they found a tan leather knife sheath underneath Madison's body and the comforter.
According to the probable cause affidavit, police found a single male source DNA on the button of that knife sheath. Later testing identified that DNA as Brian Koberger's.
On the face of it, this DNA link on the knife sheath is very strong evidence against Koberger. But upon closer inspection, the existence of DNA on the sheath doesn't actually mean Koberger was there the night of the murders. All it really means is that at some point he came into contact with the knife sheath. And granted, this all sounds very suspicious, but again, just throwing it out there as an alternate theory, maybe somebody is trying to frame Koberger and that the real killer placed the knife sheath where the victims were murdered. That's a good question.
That is certainly an argument that defense could and probably will make. Without a murder weapon, this evidence is circumstantial. Remember, the standard for guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt. It does seem like there's a lot of evidence mounting against Koberger. There are also plenty of places, though, to raise reasonable doubt. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
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If Brian Kopeker is innocent, as he claims, are there any alternative theories that could explain the murders? Jeff and Stephanie. Like so many murder investigations, the police looked into many different possibilities in the immediate aftermath of the crimes. The first suspect was Kaylee's ex-boyfriend, a young man named Jack. The pair dated for about five years and had recently broken up, but they were still in communication. The next day, they were in a relationship.
This was awful.
all so tragic for Jack. But again, it's very common to look at the people closest to the victims first when you're starting an investigation. But he was ultimately cleared very quickly. So after the ex-boyfriend, we heard about a supposed stalker. A local business owner went to the press and said that about three weeks before the murders, they overheard Madison and Kaylee voicing concerns about Kaylee being stalked.
She said she would beg friends to walk closely behind her at all times after becoming terrified of someone who would follow her around town. Could this mystery stalker also be the killer?
And that story was also backed up by the footage from this food truck. In this video, if you've seen it, it appeared that there was this gentleman, a young guy, kind of following Kaylee and Madison. And again, depending upon how you look at this footage, you could interpret this person as looking creepy or suspicious because he was wearing a hood. It's a snippet of a video. So is everyone just grasping at straws or is this actual real evidence?
Well, Steph, after this food truck guy, we heard about Zanna's DoorDash delivery and whether or not the driver might have seen something or somehow been involved. And there were also all of those rumors about a love triangle gone wrong and scorned roommates seeking revenge. It all was getting extremely nuts at this point. It seems as though social media, at least, was targeting a lot of people without any information.
And it's safe to assume that investigators checked out all these possibilities and people and they were all cleared or never even considered suspects in the first place. But unfortunately, with a case like this, it doesn't really mean much for these innocent men and women because they were not free from online abuse and the court of public opinion.
Within hours of the brutal murders, local and national media descended on the once relatively unknown town of Moscow and began to cover the shocking killings. At nearly the same time, an invisible army of internet sleuths and trolls began to speculate on the investigation from afar. Dozens of YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, and Reddit groups emerged overnight to discuss, dissect, and analyze all aspects of the case.
People are making things up because they want answers. And because the gag order, people are making things up for content too. So like on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube, people are just making shit up and they're running with it. Like it was a drug house and, you know, this was a drug deal gone bad. And the door dash driver was secretly delivering cocaine. You know what I mean? Like people are just making shit up.
Despite the massive amount of public interest, for weeks police provided few details about the gruesome murders. And the judge in Idaho also issued a gag order preventing anyone involved from speaking publicly. The internet, often recklessly, jumped in to fill the void. The baseless speculation and misinformation came with grim consequences for real innocent people. Just know, I'm not the only one who suspects Rebecca Schofield.
A TikTok psychic accused Rebecca Schofield, an associate professor at the university, of being in a lover's triangle and orchestrating the murders. If anyone would have been considered a person of interest and would have had a motive, it would have been Jack. At the same time, a YouTuber accused Kaylee's ex-boyfriend Jack DeCour of the killings, suggesting their recent breakup after five years of dating as a cause for the crime.
When you talk about like Reddit, because there's so many subreddits dedicated to this case. There's Idaho 4, there's Moscow murders, there's, you know, Brian Koberger, Moscow murders. There's so many different subreddits dedicated to this case that have, I mean, hundreds of thousands of posts discussing everything under the sun. And because there's no real moderation, you know,
on those subreddits, there's all kinds of speculation. You know, the moderation on some of the subreddits could use a little work. I mean, people are posting, you know, they're making things up.
Deanna Thompson is the co-host, along with John Green, of the upcoming iHeart KT Studios podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna. In 2010, they led the online effort to identify and catch the international serial killer Luca Magnata. That case was later turned into the popular Netflix documentary, Don't Fuck With Cats. Stephanie and Jeff.
John Green and Deanna Thompson aren't your typical online sleuths. They became famous for their work helping catch a killer online. It was all showcased in Netflix's Don't F with Cats in 2019. Here at KT Studios, we're actually working with them on a new podcast called True Crimes, which will be out later this year. And if you haven't seen their documentary, please do. It's astounding the work that they do.
They're the perfect example of people who really conduct ethical, responsible investigations and turn over any relevant information to the police. It's impressive and it's really effective. Here's Deanna Thompson, a.k.a. Body Movin', followed by John Green. I do think that people want to make sense of police.
A really senseless murder of four like super rad people, you know, like how could this happen? So you have to make sense of it somehow. And in order to do that with a gag order and no information coming out, the only thing that you can do is get on the internet and talk to other people who are also trying to figure out what happened.
And I think that is cathartic. The problem with it is, is imagine being Dylan or Bethany and having all these rumors come out about you, like you're involved somehow, or you were in some sort of drug ring or human trafficking. I mean,
the gamut has run wild on these two girls. And it's really tragic because they are listed as victims. They are listed as victims and you don't victim shame people. And I feel like that's what's been done to Dylan and Bethany. And it was happening to just Dylan because she's mentioned a lot in the PCA. But now that Bethany has potentially exculpatory information and she just got a subpoena in the state of Nevada to come testify at
The prelim hearing, which has been squashed, by the way, they're going to come to Nevada and interview her instead. Now all the attention is on Bethany because she potentially has exculpatory information. And it's like, what does she know that's going to help Brian? You know what I mean? Like people are already starting to point fingers at her and it breaks my heart for them. And so that side of things I find quite disgusting, quite disgusting. And I have no qualms in telling people how disgusting I think they are.
Another aspect to it is time. When the incident happens and there's an amount of time that lapses before the police arrest somebody, I think that it triggers something in people. So this incident happened November 13th. It was a high-profile murder case where four innocent college students in a small town were killed. It was on all the major news. Nobody knew, I think.
people get triggered, like what is taking the police so long? Why can't they solve this? I know I'm going to jump online and I'm going to try and figure this out myself. So there's that time element to it. I think it took six weeks before they arrested Brian. So when you have this gap and people think police aren't doing their job, I believe some of the parents are coming out saying the police aren't being forthcoming. I think that
adds to it and gives people this sense of, hey, let's go online. I mean, if you arrest somebody within 48, 72 hours, there's no time for the public to go out there and make these wild accusations or for psychics to get involved in, you know, trying to figure out anytime a psychic's involved, you know, something's not right. Don't listen to psychics. So I think that was part of this very high profile case.
Well, again, let's talk about how there's a way to do it ethically and that's what you guys do. And then there's a way to do it unethically, which is maybe what we're seeing. Yeah. So one of the things, you know, and I don't know if it's an ethical thing or not, but
One of the things that we have done in the past is we don't really talk about the cases that we're working on ever. We don't post about them. We don't ask the public for help. We don't, and if we do, it's very sneaky, you know, and it doesn't give anything away. We don't make videos about them. We don't, we don't do anything in it. And it's specifically because we don't want the suspect to
to know that we're looking at them, number one, because sometimes I feel like there's a new case right now and I feel like me even acknowledging that I know about it gives that the person that did it like a little bit of a rush, like, ooh, Body Movin's looking at me. You know what I mean? Like, ooh, I put this cat in a blender and maybe I'll, you know, maybe Body Movin and John Green will look at my case. You know, like,
I don't want to give them any attention. So I don't want the suspect to know that I have the specific evidence, i.e. the Puma.
which we talk about a lot in the podcast, I don't want the suspect to even know that him and I are working on it because I think that will give them some sort of ego boost that these Netflix people are looking at me, you know, get them happy. If there is like in the cases that John and I typically work on, the victim is an animal, right? So there's no like human being that I have to like be careful with,
like as far as the victim is concerned. But if you are talking about something like Idaho, where there are actual humans that are victims and family that is suffering, I just think it's incredibly insensitive to get on national television and talk about rumors that you've heard
where Ethan was sliced from ankle to groin. Do you know what I mean? I just think that's, and it's a rumor. I just think it's incredibly insensitive. His parents, his brother and sister, they have to see that. You know what I mean? And while they know what happened, I'm sure by now they know what happened to him. Do we really need to know what happened to him right now before court? Do we need to know that? Is it important that the public
that you heard a rumor that Ethan was slashed from ankle to groin. And I just think it's insensitive. And I would never do that. Deanna and I at the core of it are true crime fans, just like people listening to this podcast. And
As a true crime fan, you've watched enough documentaries or series involving detectives or investigations. You always hear the same thing. It's an ongoing investigation, no comment. And so you need to learn to keep a tight lip, not say anything, don't expose anything that you have or know. Again, we're journalists.
We're just armchair detectives. We're not experts or anything. Who are we to go online and make a statement or accusation or accuse somebody? You know, it's not our place. We try to collect the evidence, put it in a format that's easily understandable, contact the local law enforcement or whoever has jurisdiction, talk to somebody there, say, hey, we'd like to email you something. Let them handle it from there. Let's stop here for another break.
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And in that time, I will run down seven stories, everything from the most important headlines to fascinating new information you might miss otherwise. My name's Hannah Jewell. Go follow The 7 right now, wherever you're listening, and we will get you caught up.
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Here is Adam Wandit, a digital forensic expert and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He points out that her case isn't really one of online slews breaking the case open, but more an example of the widespread availability of videos aiding law enforcement.
In the Gabby Petito case, the evidence that led to the recovery of Gabby Petito's body was actually evidence that was on a video camera of somebody who was driving through the park that accidentally recorded the vehicle that was used to dump her body in the park.
And only after the case, only after he recorded it, when he learned on social media that there was a potential body or murder in that park, he went through his own evidence, found what he was looking for, posted it to YouTube, sent it to law enforcement. And in the Gabby Petito case specifically, that evidence was critical for finding her body and
and bringing her killer to justice. And, you know, it doesn't always happen that the public has that information, but in the Gabby Petito case, they did. But that is certainly, you know, the rare exception. When internet sleuths have inserted themselves into active cases, it hasn't always gone well. In 2013, thousands of online amateur detectives rushed to identify the individuals they believed carried out the Boston Marathon bombing.
They were wrong and misidentified several innocent people. With thousands of online sleuths and commentators posting about the Idaho murders, some have stuck out. A user who goes by Papa Roger was a prolific contributor on the site, with many creepy and insensitive posts. The prolific poster appeared to have knowledge of the facts of the case before information was officially released.
At the same time, Papa Rogers also made claims that turned out to be wrong, like suggesting that the white Elantra was a, quote, red herring. Many have speculated that the poster Papa Rogers was in fact Brian Koberger. Stephanie and Jeff.
Papa Rogers was a member of the University of Idaho Murders Case Discussion, which is basically a Facebook group. And it popped up out of nowhere and very quickly amassed about 225,000 users. And that just shows the country's interest in this case. It's just one of the hundreds of online groups talking about the case real time. But of all the members, Papa Rogers was
he stuck out to the group because he was being very condescending and very argumentative to other online users. Other things also caused Papa Rogers to be a notable member of this group. They posted frequently with information that seemed almost too detailed. For example, one post read, of the evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife.
This leads me to believe they found the sheath. While at this time, police did say they were searching for a bladed murder weapon, investigators hadn't yet said anything about the knife sheath being at the murder scene until the probable cause affidavit was released, meaning that Papa Rogers was either a very good guesser or they somehow knew something the general public did not.
And also real time over on Reddit, a very similar user named Inside Looking also appeared to have a lot of detailed information that hadn't been released to the press yet. One post read, Speculation. Killer parked behind the house. Approached property through tree line.
Entered sliding door and left it open. Committed murders and exited sliding door. One knife, according to coroner's statement. Time of murder approximately 3:20 to 3:40 a.m. according to the car fleeing the scene and on camera on Highway 8. Approximately 3:45 a.m. vehicle left skid marks upon exit.
The detailed post really creeped out the Reddit posters. And there was this one person I recall saying, quote, "Dude, this guy is solving his own crime. Psycho." End quote. Really implying that it's possible that the killer has now joined this group to really better understand the chatter happening around the crime. Interestingly, or coincidentally, Papa Rogers was later kicked out of the group discussion and seemingly disappeared just before Koberger was arrested.
More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios.
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Deanna, who you may know as Body Movin'. My friend and I, John Green, were featured in the Netflix documentary, Don't F with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. ♪
Police say 33-year-old Breidigan was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack. It appears to be an execution-style assassination. This is very active, so we have to be careful. I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies in the basement. I knew. I just knew something was wrong. Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something, please...
It's never too late to do the right thing. This is True Crimes with John and Deanna. The production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that takes different shapes or forms.
MITRE's mission is to solve problems for a safer world. If you have a passion for applied cybersecurity with skills in infrastructure threat intelligence, deterrence technologies, advisal threat emulation, or intelligence analysis, explore the many challenging and fulfilling career opportunities at MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.
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