George Wagner Takes the Stand
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He said straight up, we don't get along. He said there were times he wanted to leave. And I wondered if that was really true. Maybe he did want to leave, but he didn't do it. Describe your relationship with him. I looked at Hannah as a baby sister. I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were you there? Did you do anything? Did you know about it at any time? When did you find out that they were guilty or that they had actually participated in the crime?

I never would have believed my family would be capable of doing something of this magnitude. This is The Pikedon Massacre, Return to Pike County, Season 4, Episode 21, George Wagner Takes the Stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.

His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. Facing a mountain of evidence and testimony placing George Wagner IV at the center of the plot to kill the Rodin family, his lawyers made the surprising decision to call him to the stand. The unexpected move was described as a "Hail Mary" by many trial watchers. During his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers painted him as the black sheep of the family.

During the first day of his testimony, George calmly disputed nearly everything that had been said about him by other witnesses. And while describing his criminal upbringing, George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting to escape from his own family. Today, it was a bombshell day, if you will, of testimony.

For nine weeks, George Wagner IV has sat quietly as a parade of witnesses, from police investigators to his own brother and mother, picked apart his claim of innocence and ignorance. George, let me adjust this microphone for you. Just keep your voice up real loud so the jury can hear you. Please state your full name for the record. George Washington Wagner IV. You've been sitting in this trial for many weeks now, right? Yes.

But on the 42nd day of the trial, wearing a white collar dress shirt, dark tie, and a gray vest, George Wagner took the stands in his own defense. His attorney began by asking George to describe the troubled environment he grew up in. Let's talk about your education first. Okay. Did you ever go to a public school? For a very short period of time. So how did you get your education on?

My mother homeschooled us. But George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long. By the age of 14, his official education was over. It was replaced by a different type of education. When did you quit? I felt that I didn't need it anymore and I just wanted to do my own thing. My father quit in the sixth grade. So what did you want to do when you quit school? What did you want to do with your life? Did you have any goals or aspirations? When I was a young kid, I wanted to be either a game warden or a forester.

George Wagner said when he was young, he and his father had a great relationship and that the pair spent many days hunting and fishing together. But his father, Billy Wagner, was also responsible for George Wagner's other education.

In your youth, did he teach you other things? My father taught me how to open a lock, how to steal fuel, how to steal loads or break into loads. How did he actually do it? Did he set you down, explain how that works? He bought like a lock pick set, tons of like a whole bunch of different locks and picks. And then you set us down for hours until we could figure out how to open it. And what would he do next?

If anything, what do you want you to learn how to do that? After my brother and I learned how to do it, he would go from like hotel to hotel in different counties and open the vending machines in them. Would he do it or would he have you do it? Usually you'd have my brother do it. Why your brother? Because my brother can open a lock in a matter of seconds. All right. And what about you? Three, four minutes. So your brother was a little better at picking locks than you? Yes.

But your dad took both of you around to pick locks? Yes. What kind of locks would he have you pick? Padlocks, vending machine locks was the most common, door locks on trucks, ignition switches. And what would be the purpose? The vending machines? Yeah. He would take the coin box and the cash box out of them. And did he teach you anything else around that? Just how to break into trailers and drive off with loads. All right, explain how that works.

With the loads, you go around, take the padlock and the hinges off so you don't break the seal. If the seal is broken, it's instantly somebody's been in it, so you've got to take a hinge off and open it without it. But you see what's in the trailer. If it's something you wanted, then you unload it. If it's not, you put the hinge back on. Nobody ever knows it was opened. All right. And your brother was with you? Yes.

And he would pick out the truck? Yes. Did he have any methods or codes or anything like that as far as how would he pick out a certain truck? Usually it had to end up being a company truck, but Walmart was like the one he went after more than anything. And why was that? He despises Walmart. I don't know why. Now, did your mother know about these activities? Yes, she was there 99.9% of the time. She was in the truck with you? Yes. And she knew your father was teaching? Yes.

Were there other things that your father taught you around? How to steal fuel. Steal fuel. Yes. So, your dad taught you to steal fuel and pick locks. When you would go out with your father, would he ever teach you to look out for things or not look out for things? Was there anything like that? So, the job was you were always supposed to make sure you could see a top before they seen you or to know where every camera was. All right. So, explain how it taught you. It taught...

It really goes back to when I was a kid and he was still around in Pennsylvania a lot. For every cop me or my brother would see, we'd get a dollar when we were a kid. And that goes back to like eight years old, even before he started the theft. And how old did that last? We were 10, 11. He would go around and start out with the...

Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

The fact that George Wagner took the stand in his own defense, unexpectedly, nobody in the courtroom was anticipating him to take the stand that day. And I have to say, he was very composed. He seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. The stakes could not be higher for him. And when he describes his childhood, it's almost as though he was born into a family of con artists, you

You know, here he is being taught how to pick padlocks and steal fuel and steal coins from vending machines. These are crimes.

Granted, they are petty crimes and nowhere equivalent to murder, but it does paint a picture of what was happening in his early days. It's possible that the defense was feeling the pressure and decided it can't hurt to have George Wagner take the stand. And I think he did a pretty good job. He does not seem emotional. To me, he seems more credible than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now, it might be different because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories differ.

He said, she said, versus he said. I mean, he's extremely prepared for this moment. You know, we might be surprised, but I imagine this is something he and his lawyers were working on for weeks and probably running through potential questions and potential answers.

So for him, this is the culmination of probably a lot of practice. And remember, accused killer dad, Billy Wagner, he's very anti-government, anti-law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him preparing for the end of days. So the other side of this is, you know, they live in a very rural area in the event of a

disaster. Billy Wagner wanted to make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it. But the truth is they were stealing and they were stealing on a very high level at a very young age.

If I'm the Rodin family, I'm thinking, I don't care. There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me, you know, you got your ATV taken away as a kid. I don't know how that equates to being a part of an eight-person homicide. But again, I mean, this whole case, you know, we've heard a lot of things that we don't think are relevant and what the jury is thinking and what the judge is thinking, we can't say.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's attorneys are really painting a picture of a guy who was considered maybe second best to his brother. Much has been made about perhaps Jake was favored by his parents and that George was always the outcast and trying to step away from the family and maybe look away from their scams and cons and just try to get out to make a better life for himself.

It matters maybe because it offers some insight into how he just has always been used to ignoring them. And maybe that's how he was able to ignore the fact that

his family was commiserating to murder eight people? Or is that just wildly far-fetched? It's now decades later. Does that excuse you of what you're being accused of? On the other hand, it also does paint a picture of how people are potentially indoctrinated into really dangerous behavior.

By the time George Wagner was a teenager, he said he was growing apart from his own family and that he was growing closer to his uncle, Chris Newcomb. The two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs around the farm. Let's talk about Chris for a moment. Explain your relationship with Chris. Chris is more like a brother to me than an uncle. Why do you say that? We're almost identical in everything we like and do. And what type of things would you do together? Go mudding, hunting, fishing, fishing.

Just to see how far we could go on a four-wheeler in a day. And would Jake be part of this? In his own way, sometimes, yes. He was always left behind. And why was he left behind? He didn't want to get his four-wheeler or his dirt bike or whatever he had dirty, and he'd run like two miles an hour. And how were you and Chris doing? Kind of like a battle of hell.

George Wagner said his brother Jake preferred to play video games and to play with action figures. He had hundreds of them. Every dime he got as a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would set them up on a shelf and stare at them for hours. And did you play with them as well? No. But I would go in and move them when he wasn't there just to see if he'd notice it. And you could move it like a centimeter and he'd know. And did that ever cause any problems? Many, many fights.

Wagner testified he started drinking alcohol at age 13 and was partying regularly.

Around the time he was 18 years old, George met Frankie Roten. The pair became quick friends. Did you consider him a good friend? I considered him one of my best friends. George said his life changed once he got his driver's license. He made new friends and was able to get away from his mother Angela and brother Jake. Why is that? Because I had freedom. You had freedom. And I could leave when I wanted. I'd hang out with my uncle or Frankie or Sean and Nathan Walls and Garrett Leith.

All right. And did that cause any problems back home on Bethel Hill? My mom was never happy about it. Tell us about that. She always said that I was leaving my brother to do all the work and I needed to be more like him to stay home. Around the time George got his driver's license, his father, Billy Wagner, bought him a used Chevy pickup truck for about $2,500. But even that purchase created lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought a more expensive pickup for Jake.

He got his three or four months before mine. My mother made my father buy it for him. It was $16,000. Yes. Considering the one I wanted was, I was told no for, and then a couple weeks later they bought my brother's truck that was the same price. It

Not a good feeling for a 15-year-old. And did you express your feelings? I brought it up many times my entire life. A little bit bitter about that? Yes, still am. With freedom and new friends, George Wagner spent most of his free time partying with Frankie Rodin at nearby Big Bear Lake. Describe the drinking parties or whatever that you did there. We played drinking games and drank until one of us fell out, which was usually me. All right. Did you enjoy them? Yes.

George testified that his mother, Angela, regularly berated him for his immoral lifestyle. Also, that she viewed Jake as an angel.

When my mother had him paranoid that he was going to go to hell and she kept beating into everybody's head, if you do anything that you're making Jesus cry and you're going to end up going to hell. What do you mean by that? She would say that all the time. If you say one curse word or if you do anything that she thought was inappropriate. What would she say? That you're going down an entirely bad road or you're making Jesus cry for this or that or depending on the situation. What was your reaction to that?

We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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Play for free at LuckyLandSluts.com. No purchase necessary. BGW grip. Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. George described his brother Jake as rude and lacking a filter. He goes to somebody's house and he thinks it's dirty, he's going to tell them your house is filthy. If he thinks you stink, he'll tell you to go take a shower. He has no filter. Did that cause a problem? Yes, he insults people and a lot of my friends and stuff didn't like him being around.

Did that cause you trouble? Yes, because they didn't want to hang out with me. My brother thinks that he's a saint and can do no wrong and he's better than everybody. He thinks that him being honest with people is what people want to hear about his opinion of their self.

Here's investigative journalist and law and crime reporter Anjanette Levy.

He made it sound like, you know, Angela favored Jake. He always got in trouble for what Jake did. Jake would blame him for things when they were kids. But I mean, he said straight up, we don't get along. We'd fight all the time and sometimes we get along and then most of the times we didn't. I can't imagine existing like that. He said there were times he wanted to leave. And I wondered if that was really true. Maybe he did want to leave, but he didn't do it.

Later, George told the jury that his younger brother Jake was also a regular at Big Bear Lake. But instead of partying, Jake would hang out with his new 13-year-old girlfriend, Hannah Mae Roden. He would sit in the tent or around the campfire back in the yard where the tent was with Hannah all night. No, he wouldn't let Hannah either. Yes. Jake wouldn't let her go.

He didn't want Hannah having bad influences or drinking or partying. At this point in George's testimony, having set up the tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney John Parker pivoted back to the Wagners' life on Bethel Hill and began to unpack the Wagners' history of criminal activity. The first house was a single white trailer.

What happened when you were six years old? My mother tried to burn the house down that failed because she didn't know what she was doing in the beginning. All right, explain. If there's no air, it smothers out, and she had everything closed up in the beginning. So just the kitchen, living room area burned. And your mother set that on fire? She had my father set it on fire, but it was her plan, and she's the one who taught my father how to do it.

George said after his parents remodeled their first trailer, they added a second one. But once again, his parents set fire to their newly remodeled home.

In 2000 you were about nine years old? Roughly. Alright, and what do you mean they burned that one? They burned that one down and succeeded with that one. Whose dead? My father and my mother. And how did they burn it? Same method as always, a whole bunch of newspapers stuck underneath the fuse box. So at this point in time, when you're nine years old approximately, your first two homes have been burned by your mom and dad? Yes.

Later, the Wagners built a more permanent home on their property. It was nicknamed the, quote, Kentucky Wonder Mansion, and George said he was fond of this house because he had his own area that allowed him to leave whenever he wanted. George said he often did this to avoid working with his mother in her dog breeding business. She expected me and my brother to put in eight and ten hour days and basically not get paid for it. Okay. So every time she'd turn her back, I'd be gone. And so...

What did your mom think of that? She'd always tell a fit for me leaving my brother. And did she sell a lot of dogs? Lots of them. Made money on it? A lot. And what type of dogs did you sell? At that point, English Bulldogs and Labrador Retrievers. So purebreds? Yes. Were they always purebreds? She would—we'll start with the labs. The English Bulldogs were legit because it's hard to find something that looks like them.

The labs, if one of the females had eight pups, she would go to the pound and get four or five more that looked like them. And if she sold the eight, she'd just say she didn't sell the eight, and then she'd resell the ones that she got from the pound that may or may not be a lab. Occasionally, if it had a white spot on a black dog that looked identical to a lab, she'd just dye the hair. She would do what? She would dye the hair so it would turn it black and you wouldn't know it had a white spot on it. And how long did the dog business go on for?

until it burned. What happened? We came home from Columbus one night late at night and it was laying in ashes. What was laying in ashes? All four dog kennels. And how many dogs? Close to a hundred. Did you ever find out how that dog kennel burned? No.

But the fires didn't stop. George said his parents burnt the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in 2007 when his parents considered moving to Alaska. However, they decided to stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained a special room in the basement for a new business opportunity with Chris Roden Sr. All right, and what was that room used for? It was used for growing marijuana. Explain that. It was 10 foot wide by 40 foot long.

All right. And were you ever in that room? No. Why not? I don't agree with drugs. George also testified that his family once stole a truckload of boots. From the beginning, my father and other people that he drove with had two choices, basically. They were either going to take a load of diapers or a load of rocky boots. Who actually hooked the trailer, I can't say. I was not there. I don't know who hooked it. But the plan was either the diapers or the boots.

My mother was pushing for the diapers, and my father and his friends all wanted the boots. So my mother sided with them, and they went with the boots. Okay, so what happened? Then the boots showed up, and my dad's friends and their family, my dad, my brother, and I, and my mom unloaded the trailer. All right, and so what happened next? We unloaded it. It got divided three ways, and then they hauled the trailer out while everybody hauled their boots to whoever's house they were going to. And how many boots are we talking about here?

53-102 load. Thousands. Thousands of boots? Yes. And your mom was involved in that? Yes. She helped plan it. She helped plan it? Yes. And so did you guys get some of the boots? Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point. Are you aware of any other deaths, like between 2005-2014, that your mom or dad or family was involved in? How many do you want me to go into? Because I can go for days.

George Wagner detailed many other crimes his family committed, from stealing Dell computers to copper wiring. After the items were sold, George said his father, Billy Wagner, would hide money around the country. Did your dad ever tell you something about a pension plan he had? My father used to say that he buried money across the U.S. in different spots. What do you mean by that? When he'd get big loads of stuff that he would take and haul it to Mexico and sell, he would take the money and bury it.

Where would he bury him? I can't say that. I just know somewhere between here and Texas. That's what he told you? He said multiple places. So, if I understand you, he would take a load of what? Copper, aluminum, zinc. And he would come back? Yes. What would he come back with? Brown paper bags full of money.

Here again, Stephanie and Jeff.

This is pretty shocking. It's a pretty wild detail. $200,000 in a little brown bag is a lot of cash. So you're buying scraps, you're stealing scraps of aluminum and copper and then hiding the money in various places throughout the country. It's a big plan. It shows a lot of thinking. By the way, if any of the Wagners were using some of these clever

clever ways of making money legally. Imagine how successful they would be. It takes a lot of thought and preparation and care to even come up with a plan to be able to hide money in various parts of the country and all of the stealing and the thieving and the arson and the receipts.

It's just all used for bad. Does that mean it's not such a leap to imagine them as murderers? Maybe not. Where I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off the rails is this section about burying money and all of the things, because to me, it just makes the whole family only seem more out of their minds. And they looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone was out to get them, and they were being trailed and tracked at all moments of the day, so much so that they had to hide money across the country in brown paper bags.

It only to me adds to the level of depravity and true lunacy that was going on inside this home that by all accounts, George Wagner IV was very much a part of. Let's stop here for another break.

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Despite being close to his father as a young boy, the pair grew apart when George was a teenager and after his father Billy began driving long-haul truck routes. After the dog kennels burned, the last one, my father started driving the truck. And did you notice any changes in your father after he started driving the truck?

Yes. Explain it. My father had the habit of wanting to be identical to whoever he takes as a father figure at the time. What do you mean by that? He has daddy issues. Okay. And so when he started driving trucks, did you notice a change? Yes. What did you notice? The guy he was driving with took multiple different things to stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him, so he started doing the same thing. What do you mean he started doing the same thing? He would take what the guy he was driving with was taking. Like taking...

Multiple handfuls of Adaphex and pain pills. And did you notice any changes in his behavior? It made him very irritable, hard to be around. Did that cause any problems in your relationship? A lot. He said he had a tumultuous relationship with his father, Billy, and recalled three fistfights they got into over the years. My brother ran me over with my own truck when he was trying to hook up a trailer, and I was yelling at my brother, and for some reason my father went off on me.

He said your brother ran you over. Was that on purpose or an accident? He was not paying attention. Were you injured? Not really, just a little black and blue. And so what happened? My father thought I was just yelling at my brother for no reason and pushed me up against my truck and dared me to hit him. And you were 16? Yes. And so what happened? I was just fed up with it, so I hit him.

What do you mean you hit him? I hauled off and hit him. With your fist? Yes. And what happened then? He hit the ground and he got back up and we went into a fist fight. How long did that last? A few minutes until my mother broke it up. And so did that first fist fight affect your relationship with your dad? We didn't speak for a few weeks after that.

And so were there other instances or other times when you got into a fight with your dad? Yes, three more I remember. Two more fist fights and one that was just like a massive verbal argument. He'd call me dumb, say I wouldn't listen, call me ignorant all the time. And how old were you about? In my late teens. So what happened next? I hit him again.

In early 2016, there was another fight between George and Billy. This one nearly turned deadly. He punched the window.

Then my AR was kept on my dash. He grabbed it and threw it across the yard into the dog pen. What's an AR? It's an AR-15. That's a gun? Yes. And so he broke out the passenger side window and grabbed your gun that was on the dash, you would say? And so what happened after he threw your AR? I got upset because he just threw my AR that I just recently bought a few months prior. And me and my father went to another fist fight. And what happened next?

More on that, next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Pikedon Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston.

The Pikedon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hold on to your screams. Winchester Mystery House presents Unhinged Hotel. Whistle.

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