Shownotes Transcript
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.
Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Pikedon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this kid had rolled over on this case...
One thing that kind of came to mind for me is, you know, I kind of envisioned his mother in a, almost a mob barker kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet master that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along and suddenly he has this lucid moment where he's out from under that thong and he realizes, I'm going to get the needle for all of this.
This is The Pyketon Massacre: Return to Pike County, Season 2, Episode 3: Wagner vs. Wagner. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. On April 22nd, 2021, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated murder charges in the Roden Family Massacre.
As part of his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, father, Billy Wagner, and brother, George Wagner, as co-conspirators in the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his parents and brother, who are also charged in these murders. Here's reporter Anjanette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was going to do this. So it's a pretty stunning development to see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the entire family...
who you would think would be, you know, maybe the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest. But to see him just break away from his family, I don't know, it's pretty interesting.
The significance of Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. But what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending legal chess match. In terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt, I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed to killing five of the eight rodents personally. Is he trying to save himself or trying to save his family?
you know obviously you know if he did five out of eight you still have three left and you know it'll come out who who actually did the killing on those other three but it was probably a strategic uh move on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet and you know a prosecutor is not gonna not gonna show his cards or in this case she angie when she's got three other defendants to try so they're still gonna hold it close to the vest i think
Stephanie asked reporter James Pilcher if there were still moves left for Jake to play. Is it possible that he'll say that Jake could say, I was in a very controlling environment. My mother, Angela Wagner, controlled us. My father was a bully and...
said I had to do these things and we were coerced into it. Is there any value in that even? I mean, that's entirely possible. In some of the reporting, that's what we've heard leak out. The other thing I will say is that maybe they're going after bigger game than Jake and they figured we'll cut this deal now. He'll give us what we want and then we can go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they were going after the people who plotted it.
This was not Jake's idea, right? Or at least not according to the prosecutors. This was a family coming together. That's what the prosecutors are after is that, okay, we get Jake to help us. We get Jake to plead out. It shows that this really did happen. Now we can go after the people who actually planned it.
On April 28th, just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother, George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal in the Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense motions involving discovery evidence. Anjanette Levy was on the scene that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. Can you kind of describe the mood and what was going on?
The mood was a lot lighter than it had been in the past. The Roden family, the little bit that I saw of them, they just seemed happy for the first time in a long time. And I think I saw Hannah Gilley's mother and she actually seemed happy. They can start to finally look forward. So it was just a much lighter mood. But, you know, George IV, obviously, it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked very stressed. He looked very thin. He doesn't look good. You can see it on his face.
In the aftermath of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older brother George Wagner's hearing would play out.
We spoke at length about George in the last two episodes. It was at his wedding that the last known picture of the Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his ex-wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Roden and Jake Wagner. His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained that George IV, there was no case against him, there was no evidence against him. But now he's kind of having to
swallow his pride a little bit, I think, and realize that there may be some really good evidence tying his client to this. And this motion hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty motions. Death penalty is off the table now.
People following the case wondered, would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well? My opinion of George IV is that he's viewed kind of as the weakest link in this family because he's got the most to lose. He has a son who he loves dearly and he wants to be with his son. And so I was wondering, what's George going to do?
Instead of a guilty plea, the court heard something far less dramatic. It took less than five minutes for George Wagner IV to ask for more time to evaluate the situation. Is there anything further that you want to say concerning the motions today? No, Judge, I don't think so. I think everybody's agreed that given recent events, that everybody needs to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an agreement to reschedule the motion for June 21, 2021.
Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear that the next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner and his accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner, must now decide how they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible that now that Jake took the plea deal and admitted to the murders, that we may see Billy, Angela, and or George doing the same thing? I think it's possible that the others could plead out, but at the same time, what's the point?
They have nothing to lose by going to trial because they either bleed out, get life in prison, or they roll the dice and go to trial and maybe they can hang a jury.
As Mike Allen points out, there's no one case that assures a conviction. Is there any version of this where one of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent? It's possible, yeah. I mean, it just, it all depends on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean, that's very possible. And it's happened on trials that...
where there are two defendants that have been severed where one is found guilty and the other one is not. You know, different juries are different, and it'll be a different jury for every one of these trials. And lawyers will tell you, especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to happen with the jury. And I've been at this for 40 years, and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I don't know why.
But they are. But in answer to your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the Wagners' cult-like family dynamic. They're very close. They live together. They've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled. They homeschool together. They raise their kids together. Everything is done together, as well as we have an informant who says that every decision within that family is made together.
I say family decision. Without any of the other Wagners coming forward with plea deals, there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered about the family that is alleged to have carried out Ohio's most notorious crime. It's worth noting that while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela, Billy, and George Wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state has kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy had their own role. They had their own kind of part to play. And
At this point, one thing is clear. Jake Wagner holds the fate of his family in his hands. And the united front the Wagner family has built is beginning to erode. How it will all unfold is anyone's guess.
So let's take a look at the evidence we know about based on what we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years. One of the most informative was a hearing for accused brother George Wagner that took place on August 31st, 2020.
That day, George's attorneys requested that he be allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence to tie him to the case. And Jeanette Levy was at the Pike County Courthouse that day. It was actually a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone charged with aggravated murder in which the death penalty is sought can be held without bail automatically. There's really no question about it. So they were
They were kind of wanting to, I think, get some more information about the evidence in the case. And the BCI agent on the case, the lead agent, Ryan Scheiderer, took the stand and answered a series of questions about the evidence in the case that they have against George. I do. You see him?
That's Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer of the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court. During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney had said something to the effect of the evidence, you know, if it tied anybody to this, it was Jake and Angela and not George. What text or digital communications did you find to or from him that you think is relevant?
Specifically about text messages with George. I don't remember any. Did you collect a cell phone from George? I don't believe we ever collected George's cell phone. What connection does George have to do with that laptop? The device was registered to Jake, but specifically Angela seemed to be the primary user of that laptop.
But there was some evidence that implicated George Wagner, along with his brother Jake, in the crimes. One of the most striking parts of Agent Scheiderer's testimony had to do with the type of guns used in the homicides. We know the three calibers of firearms that were used to commit these murders. And they were? A .22 caliber long rifle.
Scheiderer went on to make a direct correlation between the .22 caliber shell casings found at victims Dana Roden and Frankie Roden's homes and the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's agent Scheiderer being questioned by prosecutor Angie Canepa.
We recovered .22 caliber shell casings, and where we recovered those was at 260 Peterson Road, which was property that was owned by George Wagner and his brother Jake. And were those shell casings submitted to the lab for comparison to the shell casings that had been recovered from both Frankie's and Dana's residences? Yes. And what was the opinion of the...
But the weapon that fired the shell casings at 260 Peterson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's and Dana's residence, as well as Frankie and Anna Gilley's residence. So the same firearm had been fired on the same properties. So the exact same gun, not just the same type of gun. The same firearm. Same gun. Okay. Okay.
Forensic expert Joseph Morgan explained the intricate science involved in tying a shell casing back to a specific gun. The inside of a handgun like this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, which are kind of flat, plateau-looking formations. And also, because these are soft metal brass casings that are being ejected once the round is fired, you have what are referred to as extraction marks.
this spent casing. It leaves these little marks that are unique to the interior housing of this particular weapon. And even you can have a weapon that rolls off the line with 50 other weapons that are the same make, same model, but they're all going to be unique at a microscopic level. And that's how they tie back the projectile to a specific weapon.
Another suspicious item was found during a different search of the same Wagner property. The police went back and they found what the ATF says was likely used as a homemade silencer for a gun.
Agent Scheiderer elaborated. We covered a mag light flashlight turned into a suppressor. You add an adapter at one end that is a solid adapter. It closed in. And then at the other end, you add a thread adapter. And it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm. But it can easily be converted into a suppressor.
They determined that it was a suppressor as defined by federal statute, then fired at least one time because they could see a bullet strike inside the suppressor.
That was pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was found in, I think, October of 2018, right before the indictments came out. And that property, the Peterson Road home, had been searched in May of 2017. I mean, when I hear that, it sounds like someone told them about it. We know that Jake led them to the guns, the murder weapons, the car used, purchased and used. And so who knows? Maybe.
During cross-examination by George Wagner's attorney, Agent Scheiderer highlighted some of the other evidence the state has on George, including wiretap surveillance. Could you approximate to the nearest hundred of how many hours you have regarding this recording of George Wagner? Hours? Not really, but I would say...
Over 100 days. Over 100 days. Okay. And so I want you to focus on those 100 days. And maybe your answer is the same, but I'm going to ask it a different way. Could you tell us over that 100 days of recording George Wagner, what statement he made that you recorded that ties him into this case? I mean, he never confessed, if that's what you're getting at. But he made incriminating statements.
At a different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for an unusual request: to be put in solitary confinement. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike Allen. What about George Wagner asking for solitary confinement? What do you make of that? His stated reason was that he wanted to be able to study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual.
Inmates ask for solitary a lot of times, although they may not say it. They're asking for that because they've been threatened and they want to make sure that they're as safe as they can be in jail. It's hard to know what's going through his head, but either he's immersing himself in the Holy Bible or somebody's saying that they're going to do something to him. Either way, his mental state is probably not good.
Since his arrest in 2018, accused father Billy Wagner has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy Wagner's attorney has been very adamant that there's no evidence, there's no case against Billy Wagner, that there's nothing. They have nothing that ties him to this.
Last year, Billy Wagner made an audacious move to separate himself from the other members of his family and move his trial forward. He took it upon himself to file a motion in court. It had to do with his right to what's referred to as a speedy trial, an Ohio procedural rule stipulating that anyone charged with a felony must be brought to trial within 270 days of their arrest. While accused father Billy Wagner had initially waived his right to a speedy trial, it was
it seems he suddenly had a change of heart. The court received a handwritten motion from Billy Wagner asking that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and that he withdraw his waiver of his speedy trial right. He was pretty frustrated, I guess, that he's sitting in jail. He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this to the court.
But it was actually some fairly good jailhouse lawyering. I'm assuming he had somebody in the jail handwrite this for him. And his attorneys, they became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew it immediately.
Mike Allen gave us his professional opinion on Billy's homespun legal strategy. I don't care how small your jail is, you're going to have jailhouse lawyers and criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients, do not listen to the jailhouse lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about. If they did, they wouldn't be where they are today.
So that's every criminal defense lawyer's worst nightmare is when your client files a motion without consulting the attorney. It's a very stupid thing to do. So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure, probably had some strong words for him for doing that.
While Billy and George Wagner have been busy filing legal motions to help their cases, the same can't be said about accused mother Angela Wagner. Bob Craypence is what you would call, you know, the first chair on this case for her defense team. And he's been very, it's been very quiet on that front.
However, Angela Wagner has appeared in court for other reasons. At a hearing in 2019, Judge Randy Deering revoked Angela Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she was caught trying to discuss case strategy with her family. Here's her lawyer speaking in court that day.
would stipulate that she was in fact instructed that she was to have no contact with the co-defendants in this case. The state has presented us with some information indicative of a violation of that and stipulate that she did in fact violate that court order.
Some of Angela Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by Agent Scheiderer at Georgia's bail hearing last year. He testified about shoe prints that were found at a few of the crime scenes. This evidence points directly to Angela Wagner's role in the conspiracy. These are the...
shoe impression prints that were lifted from Chris Rogan Sr.'s residence. And those are shoe impressions that are later determined to be from a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart? Correct. And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up on State Route 41? Yes. Can you describe to us what you were searching? There were two pickup trucks
and three trailers that were parked at that location that belonged to the Wagner family. Did you find the receipt? Yes, we did. There was a Walmart receipt. And how did you find the receipt? And Jake Wagner's. Okay. And...
Specifically in a tub marked important things or something? Correct. Okay. What was the significance of that receipt? So this Walmart receipt is for the Waverly, Ohio Walmart on M Avenue. It is dated April 7th, 2016, time stamped at 1658 hours. On there, there are the purchase of two athletic brand tennis shoes, which is consistent with the
that we were looking for. And you indicated that Angela made a statement to your fellow agents that she had purchased those shoes specifically for Jake and George. Correct. And you were asked if you recovered those shoes, if you found those shoes. Yes. And you did not, correct? Correct.
And isn't it true that Angela said that she had thrown those shoes away the very same day that she bought them? Yes. Because the boys didn't like the shoes. Correct. But Jacob George told... They denied knowledge of the shoes. Ever seen them? Correct. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment.
After your entire world is flipped upside down,
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on, Paul.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some trees.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, a hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
All together, it appears the prosecution has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the Wagner family. Here is Agent Scheiderer telling George Wagner's attorney just how much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. What recordings do you have that you feel are relevant or in this or some evidence here in this case? We have approximately 8,000 recordings primarily of the Wagner individuals, the family, and
We also have interviews where I feel there was incriminating statements made within the interviews.
They've got wiretaps in this case. They have video surveillance evidence. They have, you know, countless interviews with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this is a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space on a computer. So that kind of gives you an idea of what they've gathered.
The sheer volume of evidence shocked even seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is talking to Jeff. You as an expert, is that a high amount? Is that a normal amount of evidence? No, that's just astronomical. I would not have expected it to be that high. It's not normal at all.
According to investigative reporter Jody Barr, George and the other accused Wagners could have implicated each other without even knowing. What we don't know is whether the Wagners gave statements and what statements they made to investigators before, during, or after the charge. We don't know what
the contents of any intercepted phone calls since they've been in jail might be. Who knows what the state of Ohio has as far as whether statements made by one Wagner could almost assure a conviction of another.
So how could we see the legal battles play out in the courtroom if the Wagners decide to go to trial? As it stands, Billy, Angela, and George Wagner have all been charged with eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, like Jake, will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never have I seen anything even remotely close to this case. I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one is by far the worst.
One of the many things that's so unique about this offense is you do have generations of family members just taken out completely. It's just hard to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one. It's just, it's so unique in so many ways.
One of them is the enormous burden the trials will place on the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. You're trying the case in a small county with limited resources. I don't know how they're going to do it.
It's just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner lawyers work together on the defense or does it all have to be separate? They can work together. And that happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at some point you run into some strategy problems, but to a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has to zealously represent his client. But if it's in his client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah, they definitely would.
Witness testimony could also prove to be a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many, most probably, of the witnesses in one trial will be witnesses in the other. And, you know, that's a burden upon the witnesses, but the prosecution has no choice. They have to go forward in that nature.
Another obstacle? Seating a jury of 12 impartial Pike County residents. Here's Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state law that you initially have to try and seat a jury in the county the crime was committed, correct? So Angela Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved out of Pike County, but...
under higher legal procedures, you have to try to see the jury in the county where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it. So they've got a poll from a jury pool of registered voters, narrow it down to 12, plus a couple alternates. And that process can take anywhere from three days to a week, depending on the complexity of the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult, isn't it? I mean, there's only, I think, what, 27, 28,000 residents in all of Pike County.
You have to pick jurors for cases out of a jury pool that small? I would not be surprised to see them have to move some of these trials to another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able to seek separate juries that can be fair both to the state and to the defense. Because I think he'd be hard pressed to find evidence
any county in the state of Ohio that just was not inundated with media coverage about this. But it's important to keep this in mind. If a potential juror says under oath that, "Yes, I have seen things in the media about this, but I can divorce myself from those things and render a fair and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see from the witness stand, the testimony,"
and the instructions given by the judge, that's then a good and acceptable juror. And that's the only way that this case is going to work, because unless you're living in some kind of a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard about it. And, you know, you're just not going to be able to seat a jury of 12 in any of these cases where they've not heard anything about it.
How are each of the cases likely to affect the other? Are there things that we should be keeping an eye on? The first one that goes, I think, is the tougher road. And the guy going last or next to last, they're going to have an advantage by knowing which way the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of that nature. They'll have the benefit of watching the tape, so to speak, like a football coach would.
But there could be one overlooked factor that determines the outcome of the cases, the drive of the prosecuting attorneys. When you see a case like this and see the position these young kids have been put in, what does that make you feel when you see a case like this? It's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just know that that is going to permanently affect that child. There's no way that it couldn't.
But the prosecutor's driven by justice for the victim and the victim's family. But if you have a particularly violent and heinous crime like you have here, it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly, it makes you want to work all the harder to get a conviction. And that's just the way it is.
We've heard Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mention witnesses who were close to the Wagners in excerpts of his testimony. Since Jake Wagner's confession, we haven't heard anything from grandmother of the accused, Frederica Wagner.
Last season, we talked about how she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges pertaining to bulletproof vests she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner. Prosecutors believe she purchased the vest for him to use in the killings. Her charges were dropped after a hearing in 2019 as the prosecution feared not being able to try the case before the 270-day speedy trial statute.
But her case isn't closed yet. Frederica, they've indicated in court documents that they may charge her again with obstruction. Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence. But is it possible that she knows more about what happened the night of April 21st, 2016 than she's let on?
Depending on what Jake Wagner knows and reveals, it's possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at new charges. Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how that will impact his grandmother? Well, they can always be re-indicted if there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems to be like he's the key to this entire case. So, yeah, I suppose it's possible.
To our knowledge, Frederica Wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes, nor has she made any plea deals with the prosecution. But the same can't be said for the other grandmother who was charged in the case. Rita Newcomb, Angela Wagner's mother, initially told investigators that she had notarized and signed some custody documents for the child that Jake and Hannah shared in the event that they died, but then later relapsed.
As her trial approached on the day of trial, all of a sudden we were all out there ready to go and the trial was canceled. And then a short time later, she pleaded guilty. And in court, the prosecution outlined how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied and that her daughter, Angela, had asked her to lie about signing and notarizing those custody documents.
Here's a statement Rita Newcomb made during her plea deal. Has anyone promised you anything at all or threatened you in any way at all in order to induce you to withdraw your former plea of not guilty, entered to the original charge of obstructing justice, a fifth degree felony in count four, and to enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of obstructing official business, a misdemeanor of the second degree?
This is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb, it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us.
Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would designate her as a hostile witness.
What is a hostile witness?
It's not a matter of whether they get up on the stand and act crazy or act like an idiot. It's a matter of, is this person going to cooperate with whoever is calling them?
Another possibility is hearing from one of the long-rumored informants we discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role informants usually play in cases like the Wagners. Are you able to, Mike, just tell us what an informant is? It usually is a situation where they go to the police with some information. I mean, police can seek out people, too, and...
you know, just say, hey, you know, tell us what you know about this. And I mean, it happens both ways, but more often than not, it's the police know that somebody, there's a good chance somebody would know something and they seek that person out. But the thing of it is, it's a confidential and reliable informant. So it has to be someone that you can build a case that they are reliable.
At George Wagner's bond hearing last year, Agent Ryan Scheiderer told the court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that the Wagner family was planning on carrying out. It included then-Attorney General Mike DeWine, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reeder, and Scheiderer himself. There is a witness that testified that she was present when George, his brother Jake, his mom, and his dad were killed.
Basically organizing a retaliation plan should they get arrested and charged. Specifically targeting myself and DeWine and Sheriff Reeder. Okay. And according to the person who gave you this information, when was that statement made? Summer of 2018.
Anjanette Levy heard Agent Scheiderer's testimony that day. I think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in this case. And one of them, which is very interesting, happens to be a woman who married Jake Wagner when the family went to Alaska. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on, Paul.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Last season, we talked about the Wagner's suspicious move to Alaska in June of 2017 at the height of the Roden murder investigation. They said this had been planned for some time. The boys were looking for good jobs up there. And then Jake met a woman at church. They became married.
And in the discovery documents that detail what was handed over by the state to the Wagner attorneys, it states that there are several interviews between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent and the woman that Jake Wagner married while he was living in Alaska. So there are a number of interviews with her and recorded phone calls between this woman and Jake Wagner.
One of the kids was a three-year-old toddler. If that child witnessed the murder, I don't know if he said something when the investigators came in that pointed to possibly someone in the Wagner family because they would have all known each other, you know? He's eight now.
If he had any memory or had said something at the time when they found him, is there any potential that he might be called as a witness? Although eight now, in Ohio, the rule is a child under the age of 10 is presumed
incompetent to testify. Now, if a judge does what they call a voir dire of that potential witness and determines that the young person does know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie, it's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy, any defense attorney or
are going to fight like crazy to keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability. Is it a reliable statement? Can you rely on something that a three-year-old saw and something that an eight-year-old, years after the fact, is trying to explain? It's tough, not impossible to get a statement like that in, but I think highly unlikely.
Mike Allen pointed out a compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in terms of the discovery list that is the "aha" or something that really surprised you? Yeah, there's definitely one thing. It says "trash poll from June 8th, 2017." And that can only mean one thing: that DNA is involved in this case.
What a trash poll is, is when somebody sets their trash out at the curb, they do not have a privacy interest anymore in that trash.
So it's open season for the police if they want to go rooting through somebody's trash. And that's how, in many instances, that's how law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls. That's the thing that closes the deal, right? That, like, closes the case, essentially. That's the part of the CSI thing that, you know, jurors watch. And that's one thing that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence, it's just devastating. ♪
Another revelation we're likely to witness at the trial is more information about the Rodin's autopsy reports. Though the documents were released months after the murders in 2016, they were heavily redacted due to a gag order imposed by the judge on the case. This is just a situation where, you know, the trial judge who asked the
Reporter James Pilcher told us what journalists were able to glean from the initial releases.
They basically laid out where they were found, how many times they were shot, you know, where they were shot. And, you know, they did list specifically where the kids, the young kids were found. So what can we expect from the full reports? A good autopsy will tell you a lot about how the victim lived and how they died. And it's a pivotal, critical piece of the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the killer would know.
But the most powerful part of the state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the events of April 21, 2016. According to forensics expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to each member of the Slain family. It's something that we'll be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy, Angela, and George Wagner proceed.
In the case of the massacre in Piketon, every single human remain, every body that was there has an individual tale to be told.
The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here, and they're going to do that through these bodies. That's going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here. And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture, the more effective. It shocks the conscience of just people that go about their normal day life. They don't expect this type of thing to happen. And it is pure evil. More on that next time.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Pyton Massacre Return to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lidecker and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by executive producer Jared Astin. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker, and Chris Graves.
The Piketon Massacre, Return to Pike County, is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hold on to your screens. Winchester Mystery House presents Unhinged Hotel. Whistle.
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Why not?
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.