Naheed Nenshi: For All of Us
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Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Jan Arden Podcast. First of all, I'm here with Caitlin Green and Sarah Burke. As always, thank you ladies for being with me today. Today we also have an extremely special guest. He is no stranger to public life, although you might have been wondering what he's been up to since his run as the Mayor of Calgary came to a close in 2021.

I know I say this all the time. This is not a political podcast. And if you're with us week after week, you know that this podcast is about being a human being.

And all the stuff that we do, the mistakes we make, how to, you know, how we're navigating this strange world. Although he is venturing back into politics, and there will be some intersectionality in what we talk about, he's here first and foremost, as my friend and someone I admire and respect, and who has a lot to say about being a human in totalitarianism.

in 2024, because it is challenging. Please welcome a tenured professor, a brilliant leader, the former mayor of Calgary, who is indeed running to be the next premier of Alberta, where I live, just outside of Calgary here, my friend, Nahed Nenshi. Welcome, and how are you doing?

Well, thanks so much, Jan. I am thrilled to be on with Caitlin and Sarah. I've been wanting to do this forever. And you too, I suppose. I'm most excited because I get to hang out with the W.O. Mitchell Book Prize nominee for Best Calgary Book. What? Published in 2023, Jan Arden. Yay! I am.

am very touched. Well, thank you for breaking that news. This is just incredible. Right out of the box, I'm going to hand things over to Caitlin because the girls and I have been super excited since we found out that we were going to be able to speak to you today. And I want Caitlin to lead the show out of the gate because she's not from here. She doesn't

have a dog in the hunt, so to speak. So just her take on what she found out about you. We didn't let her into the deep, deep, deep takes on how Nahid Denshi is the number one Jan fan in the world for the last 30 years, did you? I did not find that. No, I'm from away. So from Ontario. But I feel like Ontario and Alberta can draw some similarities, like politically speaking. Yeah.

in that we have a population that can lean very liberal federally when it comes to how we vote, but very conservative provincially.

And so I'm kind of wondering how you feel like in Alberta, where a lot of the supporters are on a federal level, very conservative. How do you feel like the NDP can kind of like make inroads? You know, you're running for leadership in the NDP. And so how do you think they can make inroads with so many conservative voters in Alberta? Yeah, that's a really important question. And, you know, the city of Edmonton is very interesting because provincially in the last election, they voted entirely NDP and federally all

all but three seats, they voted Conservative. And so I think that it just reminds me that most voters don't live and breathe their politics and their tribes every day. They just want to vote for the people who think they will do the best job for them and for preserving their quality of life. Now, it's been interesting for me to get into this whole partisan politics thing, because although I ran in one for mayor three times,

That was as an independent, no political parties. I'm known because I wear purple every day. I'm wearing purple socks. You can't see them now. But the purple originally came from combining liberal red and conservative blue. And it was sort of an invitation to people to come to what I call the muscular middle. But that doesn't mean centrist politics necessarily, because I think most people don't define themselves as left versus right.

What it really is, is an invitation to people to not define themselves by their tribe, but to define ourselves by our common humanity. So now here I am in partisan politics and I've just gotten a whole bunch of purple and orange ties and pocket squares and things, mostly orange with a little bit of purple, because the idea there really is that I'm not trying to take over this party or change it.

But I'm trying to invite people to understand that this party probably reflects their views, the views of the media in Albertan. And the purple is a little invitation, a little invitation to open the door and come on in. And I hope that those are the conversations that we can continue to have through this leadership race, which goes until the end of June and then for the next three years in opposition before our next provincial election.

Yeah. I mean, that's what appeals to me, at least when I started researching you a little more closely because I knew you were going to be a guest on the show, is that it feels like we're sort of living in a time where there is less and less decorum and dignity in terms of communication with others when it comes to being...

on the other side of the political spectrum. It maybe isn't always like that, but it feels like, especially because of social media, everyone is doing a lot of yelling and things have just become more geared towards extreme views because that's what gets you the most clicks and the most views kind of today. So, and because like when you were the mayor, you're there for, you know, three terms. So you have to work with what, you know, six different premiers, three different parties, two different parties federally. And you seem like you're pretty good at

walking kind of both lines and working with people who are across the aisle. So do you feel like that's something that you would prioritize if you were the leader of the province? Well, yeah, you know, I mean, that would certainly be my goal. But I'm also not naive about the fact that this is partisan politics, and it is a different kind of game. And so one of the things I have to be careful about is that

I don't want to get eaten by the partisan politics because I'm actually pretty good at arguing and debating with people and going after those with whom I disagree. Maybe John Arden knows a little bit about that. I do indeed. Putting up my dukes, right? And so one of the things that I have to be careful of as a human being in this world is to try and ensure that I remember that I have to try and represent all people. You know, it used to be that any time a politician made a speech on election night,

They would always have a line like, and for those who didn't vote for me, I'm going to be the best premier, prime minister, whatever. And I'm going to convince you to come over. Right. And that's gone out of fashion right now. Now what's interesting is our current premier of Alberta, premier Smith did make that speech on election night. I was actually quite impressed because we don't hear that so much on election night anymore. And then she proceeded to not do it at all. And so I'm going to need people like Jan and others in Alberta to keep me honest about

to basically say, look, your job is to represent everybody and to continue to be kind to people. And, you know, when I jumped into this again, one of the things I was nervous about is that that kind of politics or my kind of politics is just out of style now.

in this time that is so divisive and angry and you're demonizing your opponents all the time. It's, I haven't seen this before. And I was concerned that if I jumped in, people would be like, that's very old fashioned, you know, that's not how we work anymore. And I've just been amazed that,

by the overwhelming support these last I launched three weeks ago today as we're recording this and I've been amazed by the overwhelming support I've gotten across the province and I think people are not that excited about my face by this handsome face but what most people have said to me is look you're giving us something we haven't had a little long time which is the permission

to dream of something bigger and to dream of something better instead of just being defensive about who we are and defensive about what Alberta is having taken away, quote unquote, from us. And so if I can hold on to that, that current of hope and optimism, you know, for those who are not from Alberta, I will tell you that if you're very lucky and you happen to be in the mountains at the right time a few weeks from now, you'll hear a big crack. And that crack is the ice breaking.

and the water beginning to flow in the spring. And I feel like I've heard a big crack over the last three weeks. And so my job is going to have to be to be the conduit, if I can stretch the metaphor a little bit.

for that sense of hope and optimism and figure out how I can continue to do that going forward. How did we get to this point where our politics do seem so polarized and we are living in a time where it does seem very us and them, and I don't know if I'm a them or an us. Honestly, I'm in the middle of this and I will tell you I'm extremely heartbroken. I have lived here all my life and

My relatives came up on a covered wagon in 1880. They settled in Cardston. They were a bunch of Mormon folks. I didn't know that. My great-great-grandfather was one of the gentlemen that built the Mormon temple in Cardston. And so my personal history, I have been here, and I'm very grateful to be living in this territorial land and to have a home here.

I'm heartbroken at what the language is like, and I'm heartbroken about some of the stuff on bumper stickers, and I'm extremely disillusioned about a province that I don't recognize anymore, really, even from 15 years ago, and perhaps it was...

the presidential election in the United States that we're all very familiar with when the game changed forever about how we speak to each other, that Pandora's box that opened up. But I do see a way forward and I don't hate anybody. I don't walk around with a lot of anger. I think everyone essentially wants the same things for their families and for their lives. And we want to be happy and have some money in our pockets and have gas in our car. And I guess my question is,

How did we get here? And how do we unravel a conversation that seems so bound up with misinformation and vitriol? I think a lot of us are asking ourselves that question. And I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on for a moment here and tell you that this was not accidental. This was very much by design. The challenge, however, is that the design has gone so far that it's completely out of control now.

So you might ask our former premier in Alberta, Jason Kenney, you know, who used to say, oh, my gosh, people have gotten so angry and divisive. And I would say, you know, the arsonist is not allowed to call the fire department. If you started this, you cannot now say, oh, no, what happened here?

And so it's not just here. It's everywhere. It's everywhere around the world. And I can tell you a little bit about what's actually happening. That's an important message for people to hear. It's not just here. This is a blanket that covers the planet. That's correct. Okay. And it was very much by design. So this is the tinfoil hat stuff, right? I can tell you kind of what happened. You may remember about 12 years ago now, there was a little bit of a scandal with a company called Cambridge Analytica and the work they were doing to data mine Facebook.

But I don't think people really understood what was going on there and how it was kind of a wedge for something quite different. So this is what was happening. About 12, 14 years ago, people decided to do an experiment with kind of earlier artificial intelligence and machine learning algorithms. And what they would do is look at the

totality of your experience online, you know, they'd look at Caitlin and go, all right, where does she hang out? What groups is she in? Right. Where does she post? And even if she didn't post things that were implicitly angry or hateful or racist, they could kind of figure out that she might have propensities to be that way. And what they learned was that folks who are sort of anti, right, who were against things,

tend to be loners. They tend to not form groups. I mean, they sometimes form groups. And of course, we see that in the streets, but most people don't join the Proud Boys or whatever. You know, they just sort of keep to themselves and they know that they can't share these feelings in public because they're not fashionable or people might be offended. And so what these folks did and have continued to do all these years is they have found these people, they have put them into

social groupings. So they might be telegram channels or they might be Facebook groups or whatever, where people suddenly feel like, oh, there are others who agree with me. And then slowly, slowly, you begin to radicalize these groups. You begin to add more and more radical information, get them angrier and angrier. And then you put in pro-voting messages.

So these folks never used to vote, right? They never voted because they didn't believe in government and all government is the same and everyone's against me. And now they've become a very, very strong voting bloc. They vote in huge numbers. And so if you are a smart politician and you go, geez, you want to go fishing where the fish are. That's why we have good seniors benefits, right, in the country, because seniors always vote.

And now they've discovered that these folks also always vote. So the example I always use, this is a fun thought experiment. So if you're a fan of Coke, you will know that Coke around the world. Drink, not the drug. Not the drug, the soft drink, Coca-Cola. If you're a fan of Coca-Cola, you will know that Coca-Cola around the world is made with sugar, right? Sugar is the number one ingredient, except in Canada and the United States. In Canada and the United States, it's made with corn syrup.

So you may ask yourself, why is Coke made with high fructose corn syrup in Canada and the United States? Any guesses? Well, I would imagine it would be the addictive part of it to get people drinking it more. Cheaper. Cheaper? Cheaper, yes. But why is it cheaper? It's because Iowa votes first. Because Iowa has the first primary or the first caucus in the presidential election.

So every president of every party will always promise corn subsidies in order to make it through those first Iowa caucuses. Wow. So you go where the votes are, right? And so in this case, you know, folks have figured out that this group of people that I'm describing might only be 20, 25% of the population, but they always vote now. And so they're a place to go where you're going to get votes. But the problem is that it's gotten out of control.

So we're recording this on April the 1st, and it's the day that the carbon tax went up and the carbon tax rebate went up. And there's protests across the country of folks blocking highways. And I just heard an interview with people in the Maritimes and the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border saying they're not going home until the carbon tax is revoked.

And I'm sure that no politician actually wants never ending protests on the highways. But when you've created this, you cannot control it. So if you're Pierre Polyev, for example, and you're creating a narrative, don't trust the media, don't trust anybody, only trust me. You know, what's going to happen at some point is people don't trust you anymore.

Because you created a thing where mistrust is the norm, where mistrust is where you want to go. And that's a huge problem. That has certainly started. I think there's so much doubt. I think it's interesting that you talk about the intention of...

what they were trying to do to instigate or to rally this particular group of individuals. And I think those were the individuals I would imagine that were the insurrectionists. Is that correct to say? I think so. I think that it's come into this whole situation, right? Because you saw it across the world. You saw it with Orban in Hungary. You saw it with the Brexit vote in Britain. Of course, with the Trump election, and you've seen it come through Canada, and I've had to deal with it a little bit.

even in my own final mayoral election. And so the problem is the people get angrier and angrier. If you keep them angry, they don't really care what the facts are. It's just the ire. And like you touched on earlier, just the

Well, I keep talking about how empathy is really hard right now. Yeah. It's hard to feel empathy because, well, those people crazy, right? They don't listen to reason. They don't listen to science. They're angry all the time. They want to create a world that doesn't exist, right? That is not familiar to us. So when I say that, and I looked at the three of you, I can imagine that you are probably visualizing the same person that I'm visualizing.

but you know if i say those same sentences in just a random crowd of people

There will be people in that crowd who, when I say the exact same words, visualize drag queens reading to children. So that's the challenge, right, is that we've become so divided that people on each side don't actually understand where the other side is coming from at all. But no one listens. No one's listening. And I don't want to both sides it, right? You know, on the one side, you have folks who, you know, say that you should treat everyone with dignity and respect, no matter how freaking weird they are.

And on the other side, you have people who say we should overthrow the government by violent means if necessary. Those are not the same thing. But at the same time, I understand why it's harder and harder for people to seek out the common ground. As you embark on this journey, are you fearful for...

the safety of your family, your sister, you know, in particular, your relatives, your friends. I know that when you consider a big move like this in this climate, there's a lot of threats. There's a lot of idle threats. There's a lot of, you know, threats that you have to put them in an envelope somewhere and kind of keep track of them to make sure, you know, we've gotten 50 threats from this one individual. Like, how do you weigh out what's safe for you and what your heart and soul can handle? Because

Nobody wants to be booed at a hockey game. Yes, as happened to our mayor just a couple of nights ago. In fact, I saw her the next night at a trans function where she was roundly cheered. And she actually started by saying that's better than the hockey game the night before. Right. But I felt so bad for her. And I went to talk to her afterwards. And she just said, look, this is just a point in time. This is what life is like. But, you know, this morning I received a text from my ex saying,

And she hasn't been that involved on the campaign. But she basically just said, I've been telling everyone that I tried hard to talk you out of this because I'm worried about your own safety, but you're doing it anyway. So we have to support you. And, you know, I thought to myself, that is true. She did really try to talk me out of this whole situation for that reason. Now, at the end of the day, I don't want to sound overly noble about this, but somebody's got to do it. If we all run away and give up,

then we don't get the kind of change or the kind of world that we want. And I've been lucky that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the folks who have gotten involved with me have been hugely supportive. They say this is something they've been looking for, which I'm pretty excited about. But I got to tell you, I've got a volunteer whose job it is to read the emails and she's got to have an iron stomach, man. I would not want to do what she's doing because I don't know the kinds of things she has to look at every day. Yeah, that's the part where...

I have a disconnect because often, like when I get involved in any kind of political discourse about any issue, I do get the shut up and saying, you're irrelevant. You shouldn't be in fucking politics. Stay in your own lane. And I'm thinking, well, in a democracy, this is what I'm supposed to do as a citizen. I can speak my mind. I can talk about who I like, who I don't like, who I'm supporting, who I'm not supporting. I'm not out to...

you know, make people mad, but it's okay for somebody else to support someone or put their hand in the air and put bumper stickers on their truck as it were, or, or fly flags or do whatever that that's fine. Um,

But I can't do anything. So that's where I kind of get lost in, you know, I'm allowed to do that. And people are like, how do you even stomach it? And I really, it doesn't bother me. I mean, 90% of it is noise. I feel like 90% of it comes from people who feel marginalized, unheard. They know full well that really for the most part, their social media, they're yelling into a void because most of the time you're looking at people that have between 10 and 1,000 followers. Like it's not a huge number.

gathering of minds. So it doesn't bother me and I'm never going to stop. I'm never going to be pushed into a corner. And I was talking to the girls. I have voted for every party. Me too. I'm 62 years old. I don't have party politics. And it's like you alluded to at the beginning of this podcast, um,

I have tried to go with a person in my community that I feel that I have an affinity for. I surprised myself. Sometimes it's liberal. Sometimes it's progressive conservative or the sometimes it's NDP. I voted everything over the years. Me too, as a matter of fact, which is so weird, but ultimately it's a team game and you've got to make a choice. But to your point, Jan,

It doesn't bother me. I'm used to it. I've got a pretty thick skin and I don't really think that there is any actual physical danger. I think people just yell into the void, right? Truly. You know, I had an event in Edmonton last week and I hadn't had an event in Edmonton before.

And I didn't know how many people would show up. And as it turned out, I had to remind my volunteer team that I used to be the mayor. So I do care about things like fire codes and people's safety. And we actually have to cap the registrations. You know, like something like 1000 or 1200 people showed up in a room that seats six or 700. But there were all these people online who were like, I'm going to show up and disrupt it. I'm going to bring a megaphone. I'm going to tell people the truth of who you are.

And my sister, who you mentioned before, who worries a lot more than I do, got really nervous. And she's like, have you called the cops? Do you have a security detail? Blah, blah, blah. And then she got all of us a little nervous and we had to figure out how to deal with security. But of course, none of these people showed up. Right. And or if they did, they were completely outnumbered by everyone else. But why do they bother to do that in the first place? And I'm sure it comes from both sides.

None of us are innocent people that have not talked about a certain party in a certain way. Like, I think we're all a little bit guilty and I will take responsibility there too for making assumptions and

having kind of a stereotype, not listening, not really understanding people's concerns or taking the time to. And I want to be more open because if I'm not more open and if I don't take the time, I love my province, Mr. Nanshi. I love living here. I didn't have to stay here. People have asked me to leave many, many times. Why don't you just leave? Why don't you go? We don't need you. I'm like, well, I love it here. I love the people. I love my friends. I love

The geography. And I want to find a solution. And I think you do, too. And I would imagine that is sort of the central role of any politician that goes into public life. It's not to drive a wedge further into our hearts. It's to find something that we have in common. Yeah. You know, I, too, lived and worked all around the world and then chose to come back and make my life here where I grew up.

And so I'm invested in this place and in the work that needs to be done here. But, you know, there's lots of hope out there in the world. You look at the new premier, Manitoba, Wab Kanu, right? And he basically ran on a campaign of let's be decent to one another again. And he won. And so I think that part of this really is about giving people an alternative. And, you know, I think for too long, all sides of the political spectrum have been playing the same game.

And, you know, when you look at the backlash against quote unquote woke politics, right?

you can see that there's still divisiveness going on. And like, I'd rather be awake than asleep myself. But at the same time, you got to understand that people are nervous, right? The world is changing. I'm nervous. And here in Alberta, you know, we're nervous because we know even though we won't admit it to ourselves, that our economy is based on a resource that someday we don't know when someday will not be worth anything anymore. And

And how do we transition to that, even though transition is a dirty word here in Alberta, right? How do we ensure that we are world leaders in sustainable energy instead of bystanders to how the world is changing? So that basic economic insecurity, I think, is at the root. It is. It pushes a lot of buttons, doesn't it? So, you know, I'm worried that my kids... Well, look, let's be frank. The people graduating university today, young people graduating university today,

likely for the first time, maybe since the Industrial Revolution, will be less well off than their parents. I know, I've been reading that stat. I want you to have more than I had. Your mom and I worked hard so that we could hand this to... And they're not going to have a house. They're not going to have land. They're not going to have, you know, two vacations every year. It's a very different landscape that young people are walking into. And so you can imagine that that leads to economic insecurity among the young people, but also among their parents.

And I believe that that economic insecurity is the root of everything else. It's easy to be generous with your thinking.

when you're not worried about your next meal. And so even though by many standards, we're very wealthy in Canada, we are very wealthy in Canada, people are nervous about their own economic future and the economic future of their kids. And that means that you're looking for things to blame. And when the world is changing on things like human rights for people that you don't know where you're uncomfortable with, right, or people that you don't understand very well,

I believe that that economic insecurity leads to a whole variety of insecurities that all of us feel. And, you know, I don't want to poke at people and say, well, you know, that's ignorant or that's wrong. I think all of us are feeling it right now. But we have two basic responses to it, right? Number one is to get super defensive and to hang on to every possible crumb that we've got because we're worried that it's going to be taken away. The other is to take a big risk.

And the risk is to open up our minds and our hearts and our arms to other people and to say we're willing to embrace change because at the other end, it might be better. But that's hard to do. We are going to take a quick break. We have so much more to talk about. We are here with the wonderful Nahed Nenshi, and we'll be right back.

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We're back. This is the Jan Arden Podcast. I'm here with Sarah Burke, Caitlin Green, and of course, Nahed Nenshi is our guest today. I guess what we're all hearing, and Caitlin can probably back me up on this, and Sarah in Ontario, is that there's these catchphrases. And Caitlin, you know what I'm talking about, is people repeat like all the time about what they want to have and why they want to have it. Buck a beer, buck a beer.

Yeah. And I mean, returning our money for license plate registrations, you know, there's there's these easy sort of things that can happen around election time to put immediate money back in people's pockets, because I think any political every political party understands that we are in increasingly dark economic times.

But the other piece that I always think about personally is that I don't necessarily see that improving. So part of my concern is that, you know, things may not improve anytime soon. And so what are we doing to support a population that may have problems?

bleak economic future compared to what their expectations were. And that because of, you know, maybe an impending global recession, all these types of things. How do you kind of like bolster your own community's resilience given the like onslaught of bad news from the climate to, you know, global aggression and everything? How do you keep your population at home in Canada feeling more supported and grease the wheels of society a little bit more again? And I always feel like a lot of that has to do with,

your kind of public assets, whether that's healthcare or education. And so it doesn't feel as doom and gloom if your ER wait in the hospital isn't eight hours. It doesn't feel as doom and gloom if your kids are going to a decent school. You know, sure, maybe you're renting instead of owning now, but those pieces, kind of the cornerstones for a lot of people of society and why we pay taxes.

are sort of still there. And same with mental health. I mean, we know we've been experiencing a very serious mental health crisis for a long time. The pandemic certainly didn't help. You can speak to this because you were sort of at the front of this in Calgary and you actually implemented like this community first mental health response. If you call 911, you get the choice between what was it?

Police, fire, ambulance, or mental health? Or mental health, yeah. Yeah. And so these are the types of things where you're like, okay, so the world's changing. It's really hard for your average citizen to stomach. You know, let's acknowledge that. What can we do in government to sort of make this a little bit easier for everybody and to make people who are experiencing, say, a mental health crisis feel safer and to make the people who are maybe with them on public transit or wherever you are, how can we sort of

meaningfully respond to these new challenges that aren't probably going to go anytime soon. I'm not doom and gloom. I just, I think that we have, we have to plan. You know, one of my catchphrase, one of my catchphrases is not buck a beer, but one of my catchphrases is we have limited control over what's going on over there, but we have a lot of control over what's going on right here. And I think in building up our community resilience, as you say, mental health is a great example of that.

But in building up our quality of life here at home through public provision of public services, we really do have an opportunity to be able to help people understand that even though times are uncertain, we've still got it pretty good. You know, here in Alberta, for example, we increased the population of Alberta last year by 200,000 people. So two red deers. It's the largest population increase we've ever had. So people are interested in coming here.

They see a life here. And the problem is that our political discourse is unable right now to latch on to that idea that there's a dream here. There's a dream that people are looking to achieve under this giant blue prairie sky. And I think that's what we have to be able to remind people that even when times are tough here, we're the envy of the world in Canada, right? The problems we have, most people would kill to have.

Consistently one of the top countries in the world. 100%, right? Highest quality of life, highest levels of happiness. But, you know, there was a recent happiness report which suggested that Canada has slipped to, I can't remember now, I think it was 15th in global happiness. Not surprising. But young people have slipped down into the 50s and 60s. And so young people in particular are just not seeing any hope.

And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, right? We can blame social media for everything. We can blame how we communicate with one another. We can blame the narratives that we're being given. We can blame perhaps expectations that were unrealistic in terms of, you know, graduate university and buy a house the next day in the city you want to live in. But we also have to understand that there's very real insecurity behind all of this. So as much as

other countries would kill to have our problems. That doesn't mean we can ignore our problems. But it does mean that we should start, I think, from a position of happiness and a position of asset-based analysis, which is a fancy way of saying, start from understanding what's good and what we have, and then use that to build something better. This is a perfect opportunity. Sarah brought me so many great things about your young life. And

And I want to go back to young head, your family, immigrant family coming here with diddly spot. And here we are having this conversation today after three terms of the mayor in the city. And you're very beloved in Calgary. Let me tell you that. But speak to us about, you know, growing up in Calgary and being that brown skin kid in a school and trying to figure out, do I belong here? Where the hell are we? Yes. So.

My parents immigrated to Canada when my mother was pregnant with me. So I always say that I was born in Canada, but made in Africa. And so they came from Tanzania. They came to Toronto. There's a wonderful story about how they ended up in Canada, which basically had to do with the fact that my dad had received copies of the Toronto Star. And for those under 40 who are listening, the Toronto Star is a newspaper.

Yes. Paper is sort of like an iPad, but on paper. Yes. I used to work there. Really? I worked in the photo research department for a couple summers. Number one, Yonge Street? That's right. I used to live at number 10, Yonge Street, right across the street. No way. That's funny. But in any case, he was reading about Canada and he saw, well, this sounds like an interesting place. Someday I'll go see that. What he actually saw was the pictures of the opening of the Toronto City Hall and it's

And in his mind, he couldn't understand how a building could be so tall, but also round. So he wanted to come see it. And eventually he had the opportunity to come visit. And my mom figured out she was pregnant just before they left. But they came anyway. They left my sister back in Tanzania. And then they got to Toronto and said, you know what? We should make a life here. And at that time, you could apply for immigration from within the country. And so that's what they did. And so I was born in Toronto.

In downtown Toronto at St. Mike's Hospital. Hey, same as me. Yeah. Very cool. But many, many, many years later, Caitlin, I think you were born decades after me. But in any case, when I was 18 months old, I did my research. I made the briefing book. My mother says the briefing book was not that compelling. It was mostly in crayon, but convinced them that we should move to the West. And we packed up all our belongings in a 1974 Dodge Dart.

and moved across the country and made a life in northeast Calgary. For a little while, we lived just outside of Red Deer. In 1979, we decided that there was nothing that could stop the momentum of the Alberta energy sector, and we were going to buy a motel just outside of Red Deer. 1979 was not very good timing. Yeah, 1980 was kind of a...

That was kind of a kick in the pants. So after a few years, we lost everything. My family were always entrepreneurs, but I didn't say they were good entrepreneurs. We lost everything. We moved back to Calgary. We bought a little laundromat on 17th Avenue, Southeast in Calgary in the community of Forest Lawn. It's now called the Forest Laundry, which I wish I had come up with when I was a kid. So we had a series of small businesses. Sometimes mom and dad had real jobs. Sometimes we had small businesses. Sometimes we were poor. Sometimes we were very poor businesses.

We were never that well off. Can I tell you something that was happening in the 80s when you moved back to Calgary and your parents bought the laundromat? My parents bought a laundromat. No, really? It was on 14th Street, and I believe it's still there. Oh, come on. On the other side of the city. So at the same time, your parents were doing that, my parents were doing that, and I just remember them counting quarters.

Isn't that funny? Counting quarters and rolling quarters. That was like my whole job. And they work so hard there. Like my dad worked full time. My mom worked at a dental office as a dental assistant. And they just needed, it still wasn't enough to make it go. So they bought this crazy laundromat. And so funny that you guys were doing that at the same time. You were our competition. At the exact same time. Isn't that funny? It is weird.

I love it. But we never made any money out of it. Hopefully you made some money out of it. I don't think it was lucrative, no. I think if there was $100, like seriously at the end of the week, and obviously it was just in vain. It was to come out of it with $400 or $500 after all the water and the electricity. In the 80s, most of the money we made wasn't from the laundromat. It was from the three video game machines that we had in there, three arcade game machines. Yeah. Because those kids would play all day. When you think back to that time, though...

in your life. People coming out of COVID are going through similar things, like having to start from scratch, maybe after losing everything. And it's such a hard time to inspire people to start over, whether it's a family business or getting back into a workforce.

I've heard a lot of stories lately about middle-aged people losing jobs. And it's like, where do you start looking for a job when you're 45? Well, or me, 52. I'm 52 now and I'm looking for a new job too. But I think part of it has to do with making sure people have that safety net that they need. So if you're a newcomer to Canada and it's really hard for you to work in your profession, for example, or it's hard for you to improve your English skills,

then you're going to go work in a job that is not matching your level of skills and expertise, but you're going to put everything into your kids, right? But for that to work, you need great public schools, you need great public health care, you need great public transit. These things are the things that really are the building blocks of the society. And I always say that I feel like I was lucky because I grew up in a neighborhood where we didn't have anything. What we had was a community that invested in my success, right?

a community that wanted me and my sister and my parents to succeed. And that's what we were able to do. And we have to make sure that every kid showing up in every neighborhood has the chance to succeed. Great public schools. I haunted the public library. I took public transit everywhere. I went to a great public university. Oh, open brackets. So while I was at the university, I was very involved in the

the Students' Union and in the community, as one always is. I was later president of the Students' Union. But one of my jobs was sort of volunteer roadie. And so I got to help out when we were putting events in and out. And that's when I met, and I'm sure that the story has been heard by Jan, but that is when I met the most extraordinary young musical artist. I saw her on stage and she was incredible. And I became a lifelong fan. And of course, I'm referring to Sarah McLachlan. I was waiting for it. Tick, tick, tick, tick.

Always the punchline. But I also met Jan Arden back in those days. And there's this fabulous picture. I love this picture so much of me and Jan and two of my buddies, one of whom is my campaign manager now. Is that Adam? Chima. Okay. And one of whom is now a judge, but he was always a photographer. You guys did pretty good. Yeah. In the days before there were smartphones, he would carry a big camera around when he went on trips.

And Chima and Nick came to visit me when I was at school in Boston. And Jan happened to be playing a festival with Cher, as we recall. And we went to see her and met her afterwards. And she autographed Chima's driver's license. And I've got this fabulous picture of that. So basically what I'm saying is I'm a stalker.

But it is funny how, you know, worlds do collide and that you and I came back here. We landed back here. We both landed back here. Yeah. And I, you know, for a while there for 25 years, I was traveling 250 days a year and I could not wait to get back to Alberta and I still can't.

No matter what has happened here, no matter how much I withstand on a personal level, and some days are tougher for me than others on social media. It depends where I step. And I know when I say things, I know what the outcome is. So I'm not naive about it. But I will say this, there's nothing that's ever going to change.

break my heart enough to keep me from my home here, my friends, and to keep me from cheering Alberta on. I believe in the people here. I believe in the people of Canada. Like I'm so Canadian and I'm

I do want to make it better. I do want to stay. I do want to weather these difficult times. And I'm glad that Mayor Gondek said, you know, this is a little moment in time and it will pass. And we can't be discouraged by this kind of unrest. Because like you said, this is not indigenous to Alberta or Ontario. This is a blanket that is kind of thrown over the world. And, you know, this is the first time in my life where I've seen major wars going on. I just want you to know how much I appreciate

admire anyone going into public office. And I will say that if it's Ms. Smith, whatever the case may be, whatever her outward personality is, Doug Ford, yada, yada, yada, going into public service, going into politics, I don't care how tough you are, at the end of the day,

When you face that kind of opposition and insults, it's very difficult. And I just want to thank everyone in public service, no matter what side of the fence you're on. That's kind of you. And I think it is important.

for us to be able to encourage people, particularly women, to get more engaged in public life. I'm in public life about as much as I can be in public life. You don't have to run for office. I mean, you're doing a great job and you're having huge influence in policy right now. And in fact, I saw just yesterday, Jan, that you put your name to a really important letter that is about protecting trans kids.

This stuff really matters, right? Well, Tegan and Sarah, of course, the Tegan and Sarah Foundation, they have spearheaded so many 400 plus artists to sign off on this letter that's just basically saying everyone deserves equality. Everyone deserves respect and understanding and to walk through this world with some grace. So we have to be mindful about when things like that start elevating and start making their way up the political channels. They have to be...

There has to be like a revolution to push back against that kind of thinking because we saw it in the 30s. We saw it in countries where entire generations of families were wiped out because of perception. So that's why as an artist, I'm never going to sit on my hands and wait for somebody else to do that kind of work and to have that kind of voice. I just, I can't do it. It's never easy being an advocate for people

anything these days. You can't win everybody over. You just can't. So you're going to have some people that really appreciate what you're doing, and then you're going to open up your computer, and there's going to be 100 comments. Since 2009, when I've been on the X social media platform, I've now blocked almost 15,000 people. Have you really? Yes.

But some people disagree with it. Oh, you're just giving them the attention they want. No, you don't even have two chances. And I've told these girls the story before is I had someone come up to me in a grocery store a few years ago and said, you blocked me on Twitter. And I said, you must have done something. Anyway, we stood in the parking lot, had a conversation, which I thought was very big of both of us.

And she's like, well, I think you took it in the wrong way. And I really would appreciate if you'd follow me again. We stood there with our freaking phones. And I'm like, give me your handle. I went through my phone. I found her. I saw that it was blocked. I unblocked her. And we went on our merry way. And I said, now you behave yourself. And she said, you behave yourself. I was about to ask how long before you blocked her again. I didn't. But I thought...

She did care. She was bothered by it. And I listened to her and I said, listen, I don't know what the thing was. I said, if you can remember exactly what the... Well, I just felt like my comment was misunderstood. Anyway, on a much bigger scale, I'm saying that these kinds of conversations, these kinds of

you know, these threads, I think they do get out of hand and they do get misunderstood very quickly. You have a big job in front of you. And I would be remiss not to touch on this a bit. I don't think you've necessarily ever thought of yourself as an NDP candidate. Like you said, you've been an independent your entire time as mayor, but the infrastructure is there. Is it not in Alberta to have that?

a new leader for this party. Yeah, let me, before I get there, I want to just respond to one other thing you said, which is I want to be very clear to let people know that we're making it sound like we're putting on our hair shirts to be activists and advocates and it's only pain that we're facing doing it. And I want people to understand that that's not always true. Definitely. The fight is worth it. That if you're passionate about something, if you believe in something strongly, take on the fight. It's absolutely worth it.

because ultimately you're making a difference for people. You're making life better for people. And that's what really, really matters in this world. And we all have to be able to do it in whatever way we can. You know, before I was mayor, when I was a professor, I worked on the issue of civic engagement and how and why people get involved in their community. And what I learned is that literature is very clear over time and over space. When you ask people, why don't you get involved in your community? Why don't you volunteer? Why don't you step up?

The answer is never, I don't have enough time or I don't have enough money or I don't have a passion for something. The answer is always very simply, nobody ever asked me. And so if we put in

That idea that service is something that matters. That, you know, Marian Wright Edelman once said, service is the rent we pay for being human. I love that. Then just ask people to get involved in their communities in whatever way they're excited about. Which is what you're doing. You are asking for volunteers and it's been unprecedented. The volunteers that are coming out. You know, even those people who are part of the convoy protests, right? Or the anti-vaccination protests. Most of them had never stood in a protest in their lives.

And as much as you might agree or disagree with what they were saying, the fact that they were getting more engaged was wonderful. It's just a matter of trying to channel people's energies towards things that, you know, make sense, right? And not things where they've been manipulated or fed misinformation or so on. So let me address your question about the NDP. You know, Jan, you were asking me about life as an independence and how you fall into partisan world.

And so I'll be political just for a minute if I can. You know, I've been more and more discouraged by the province and the direction of the province for some time now. And I thought to myself, well, I need to get more engaged in how we can build something better here. But I didn't think it was going to be me. I thought I've done my 11 years and, you know, provincial politics is a team sport and I sort of like politics.

floating above that right and being an independent and picking and choosing the best ideas from everywhere but kind of two things happened one of them was that enough people were saying to me look you have a very limited set of skills there's not a lot of things you can do but one of the things you can do is you can stand in front of a microphone and try and bring people together in a common cause and we're in a situation right now where none of us can afford to be bystanders

where we actually need to jump in with both feet using whatever skills we've got. So that was part of it. The other part was that I've spent the last several weeks before I announced talking to people in every corner of the province, you know, folks who are stalwart NDP supporters and folks who have never put the X next to the NDP in their lives.

And just ask them about their values and what they believe in and checking that against my own values. And, you know, some of the things I found, I knew I was going to find right. Everyone believes in strong public services, believes in protecting the most vulnerable, not punching down on them, believes in giving people a hand up at the times they most need them. But, you know, I also checked on other things. Do you believe in a strong economy? Do you believe in supporting small, medium and large businesses? Do you believe in supporting the energy sector, which is our largest economic sector in Alberta?

through this time of transition? Do you believe that we need to be world leaders on climate change, not bystanders to climate change? And do you believe that we need balanced budgets and a reasonable cost of living and low taxes? And, you know, people generally said, yeah, I believe in all of those things. And I realized maybe to my own surprise that

Sometimes the team is already there. Sometimes the team that believes in the stuff you believe in is already there. And that kind of surprised me. And I realized that for a lot of Albertans, they just don't know that today's Alberta New Democrats are actually supporting the values of the media in Albertan.

And so now my job is to try and invite more people in to that conversation to make sure that they too feel like they've got a home in this party. So it's a whole new challenge for me. I haven't done stuff like that before. But the number of folks who have signed up has been unbelievable. You know, I've been saying that when I first ran for mayor, six or seven month long campaign. And by the end of that campaign, we had 11 or 1200 volunteers signed up, which was more than

anyone had ever seen in a municipal campaign before. It's great. And on day one of this campaign, I had three times that number of volunteers sign up. We've had volunteers sign up, I'm told, in all but two municipalities across the province. And they won't tell me which two are missing because they know I'll go there immediately and stand on the street corner and say, why don't you love me? But in any case, the movement that we've created, the people who are excited about being for something again,

is really cool. You know, and I'll say this, that when I wrote the slogan for the campaign, it's for Alberta, for all of us. And I thought that it would be like that, for Alberta, for all of us. Emphasis on the words Alberta and all. But what I've really learned is that the power of that slogan and the thing that gets people really excited is that tiny word for, F-O-R, because we've been conditioned for so long to be against that.

to be against environmentalists, to be against vulnerable kids, to be against the energy sector, to be against Ottawa, to be against outsiders. Science. To be against science, right? And people have been waiting. They've been holding their breath for the opportunity to be for something again. And so that's what I'm really excited about, the opportunity to be for. And, you know, that's what keeps me going. And, you know, like I say, I don't know how to do this in a partisan environment. I don't know how to keep

the people who've been working so hard to build this party and make sure that they know that they'll always have a home here while we're inviting all these new people into the house.

And, you know, that'll be my challenge going forward. But I think if we start from that basic place of values, that's what's really going to make a difference. Caitlin's going to wrap things up here. Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say, I was kind of echoing your sentiments about how exciting it is for people who support you to be for something. And I think that it's because you do seem to be running a campaign that is built a little bit more on hope than we've frequently seen for a long time when it comes to elections.

in my lifetime, at least, you know, it seems all very doom and gloom. But you can see how even when people are increasingly financially unstable, government can have a really meaningful impact on everyone's finances with something as simple as, you know, the provincially subsidized daycare. And here in Ontario, we had astronomical daycare costs. I mean, my friends who had two kids in daycare at the same time were sometimes spending probably $2,400 to $2,600 a month on

on daycare. So to have that money really freed up for people in real time makes a massive difference. And so I do think there are still these levers that we can pull and it's easy to become cynical and say the government's not going to do anything for you. But public service is supposed to be that it's supposed to be service.

And so I just think that moving away from the notion that people are getting into politics to become rich, let's be honest, some people do that. They want to be connected. They want to privatize certain public sectors and then be on the boards. Wait a minute. If you go into politics, you could get rich. Nobody told me this. Don't get your hopes too high. Well, you could decide to privatize, you know, senior care and then be on a board of a large senior care company. So there's ways to do it that people have done in the past. But

So like all to say, I do think that, you know, it would be nice to see the public sector and public services not be so politically divisive anymore because everyone needs education. Everyone needs childcare and everyone needs the hospital. So I just, I don't understand. And I was wondering if you even knew why those things that everyone uses.

uses and benefits from and improves our lives. Why are they so politically divisive? I just cannot understand how that is like a politicking issue. Well, you know, part of the problem is just straight up money. Healthcare is very expensive. Education is very expensive. And no government wants to be seen as wasting money. The other challenge is sort of benign neglect, right? So here in Alberta, for example, I

I alluded to the fact that we welcomed 200,000 new people into Alberta last year. So the Calgary Board of Education here in Calgary had enough new students to fill 22 schools, and they're building one. So you get the idea that we're just not prepared for this influx and this growth.

And we've let things fall by the wayside in a very dangerous way. Infrastructure, infrastructure. Do they not see it coming? In roads and transit and healthcare and education and everything, but especially in healthcare. Yes. Hospitals are very expensive. And we haven't been able to innovate enough to think about how can we help people access the healthcare system in ways that we can make the resources we have go further, right? Yeah. So for example, we have a huge investment in home care.

Jan will know a lot about this, right? Yeah. But the problem is that the home care system has the goal of keeping people out of long term care to free up long term care beds, which essentially frees up beds in the hospital because people can be discharged to long term care. But the problem is that the home care system is not designed to actually keep people out of long term care.

So, you know, I've been having some interactions with the home care system lately, and I've been surprised at the incredibly limited scale that those poor women who work in the system who are mostly racialized women, very poorly paid. Yeah. There's so many things they used to be able to do that they can't do anymore. So, for example, they can't take the senior out for a walk anymore because it's too risky to take the senior outside. And yet those are the sorts of things they're keeping the senior living in their homes. Yeah.

And so to me, this entire system is messed up. It's a system that's based on fear. So these poor women are scared that they'll lose their job if they do things for their patient that they're not allowed to do. But at the same time, they're caregivers and they want to give care to their patients.

And how are they supposed to reconcile those two things? This is a whole other podcast. Yes, we can talk about that. Listen, we could speak to you like for six hours. I think it is incredible that you are making a lot of sacrifices. And I know there's lots of great things too. I know that you enjoy this work. I know that you're a person that's filled with joy. I know you're hopeful.

And we do need that. It's an incredible time in Alberta. I think it's an incredible time in Canada. I'm very grateful to live here. We all are. The opportunities I've had here, Sarah just started her own freaking network. You know, Caitlin's out there. She's going to be the entrepreneur of the damn year here in the next few months. Awesome. And that's because we are women living in Canada. So listen, thank you for doing this. Thank you for spending the time with us today. Thank you. But let me just say that

I have been incredibly energized over the last three weeks about the excitement that people have. I kind of forgot that I'm an extrovert. Being in those rooms filled with that hope and that optimism and seeing old people who are parking five blocks away and taking their walkers and coming so they can see me, right? That was me. But that to me shows that there is an undercurrent of...

Hope for that place. And for those not from Alberta, I would argue to you that, you know, when you think about Alberta, you might think of the big cities or the wheat fields or the Rocky Mountains. But I think the defining characteristic of Alberta is that giant, endless prairie sky that we get to live under.

It's always sunny here, usually. And we get to live under that big blue sky. And that big blue sky is the only thing that limits our dreams for the future, you know. And the fact that people are that excited about the future and what is possible is what energizes me and what keeps me going and I hope what keeps everyone going. We're going to leave it there. You've been listening to the Jan Arden Podcast. I've been here with Caitlin Green, of course, Sarah Burke, and the Honorable Ned Nenshi, who is running for the NDP Leadership Committee.

and has an opportunity to become this province's next premier. We shall see how things unfold. It's going to be a very interesting time. Mary, mind you, very early, get out there and vote. When you have your opportunity, when we do have our provincial election, when we have our federal election, make sure you vote. That's one way you can serve your country and serve your future. Thank you, sir, for spending your time with us today. And I look forward to having a coffee with you soon. Please stay safe.

Don't let the bastards get you down, as they say somewhere. Maybe my grandmother said that, but we sure appreciate your service. And that's been the word here today. We appreciate your service and the sacrifices that you and your family and all the people that are working with you are making to be in public light. Thank you very much, Mr. Nenshi.

Thank you. And my volunteers would be mad at me if I didn't point out that you don't have to wait till the provincial election. You got to vote in the leadership race and you can get more information at nenshi.ca about buying your membership and voting in the leadership. All the information will be in the show notes. We'll see you next time. Toodaloo. Thanks, everybody. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.