Ron Howard and Brian Grazer on Longevity in Hollywood
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Hey, it's Jessica Mendoza, one of the hosts of the show. Today's episode comes to you from the Wall Street Journal's Future of Everything Festival, where we recorded live in front of an audience. Hollywood reporter Ben Fritz sat down with legendary director Ron Howard and powerhouse producer Brian Grazer. They're the award-winning duo behind Imagine Entertainment. Together, they've shaped some of the most iconic stories in film and television. And you can watch the interview as a video episode on Spotify. Enjoy.

Director Ron Howard and producer Brian Grazer have some of the longest careers in Hollywood. Howard even acted as a child star in the 60s. One of Ron and Brian's earliest collaborations was the Tom Hanks classic Splash in 1984. All my life, I've been waiting for someone. And when I find her, she's a fish. The next year, they founded Imagine Entertainment, which quickly became one of the most prolific production companies in modern Hollywood.

In 2002, their film A Beautiful Mind won the Oscar for Best Picture. This isn't math. You can't come up with a formula to change the way you experience the world. All I have to do is apply my mind. And Imagine has been behind other projects, like the cult hit sitcom Arrested Development. And do you want to go out or? Why are you trying to get me out of the house? I just thought that we could hang out. The adaptation of Vice President J.D. Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy. But you, you got to decide. You want to be somebody?

And a whole lot more. The Da Vinci Code, The Nutty Professor, Friday Night Lights, the movie and the show, and their upcoming film After the Hunt, starring Julia Roberts. This year, Imagine Entertainment is celebrating its 40th anniversary. Ron and Brian's partnership has weathered countless changes to the media landscape, from the emergence of VHS tapes and DVDs to the disruption of the internet, the rise and fall of prestige TV, and big tech's takeover of Hollywood.

So how has Imagine Entertainment endured, and what's their plan for its future? Live from the Wall Street Journal's Future of Everything, this is a special recording of the Journal podcast, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ben Fritz. Please join me in welcoming Ron Howard and Brian Grazer.

All right, guys. So you have been working together for 40 years. Very, very few creative partnerships last that long. Why do you think you've never gotten sick of each other? And why do you think working together still adds value for each of you? Well, we haven't gotten sick of each other because we still don't know each other. We live on different coasts. No, no, we do know each other. I think it's, look, we access on similar taste in terms of what...

He thinks it's quality. I would think it's quality. It doesn't mean we agree on every story or every theme exactly. We often do, and those are our most successful films. But it's basically just trust in each other's creative judgment, work ethic, and...

And so I think that's part of it. We have a very polite relationship after 40 years. I had to, after the first four years and finishing Splash, I had to say to Ron's wife, Cheryl, I don't think the guy even likes me. And she said, no, no, he really does.

And I said, "Why, what evidence is there?" And she said, "Well, no, he really, really does." I said, "Well, I've tried to hug him, and..."

We didn't quite hug. And she said, no, but he really likes you. And so we do hug about once every four or five years. But it's a 40-year period. But it's polite. We don't yell at each other. We actually don't yell at each other. But we do tell each other the truth. And that's the thing. I mean, we get at it in a way that, and by the way, we really know how to read the nuances of each other's, you know, sort of statements and even body language.

But the point is we do different things

But in the big picture, we're very much aligned. We want to tell great stories. We want to find the audience wherever they are and carry stories to them. Brian's famous for his curiosity. That fuels things. That's exciting to be around. And at the end of the day, the fact that our compatibility has sustained itself and that, but some of it is that the surprises of the business is

keep presenting new wrinkles. There's new challenges, there's new stuff to figure out. In a lot of ways, you know, I still feel like we're kind of in a startup mentality in a lot of ways. - Well, let's talk about some of those challenges. So you've been through so many disruptions this industry's faced, right? Home video, DVD, cable, the internet, piracy, streaming, VR.

Which of those disruptions do you think were sort of the most consequential changes to entertainment and which ones were kind of blips that didn't matter as much as we may have thought? Remember many years ago right after we were at the Allen & Company and there was a panel and it was all about whatever the latest disruption was. It was, you know, cable should, you know, DVD or whatever it was.

Some new hardware. New hardware, and there was a lot of controversy about it and projections as to what it would mean. And we literally looked at each other, and I just said, aren't you just glad we're software? Yeah, it's true. We're content providers, and we make movies and or television or documentaries. We do it in all sizes, shapes, and form. Some of them, I know you're going to get to it, I think, at some point, but we do short form. We do...

We do TikTok. We do big scale movies that are very big scale movies.

But we do all of that and television as well. When people didn't want it, movie people didn't want to do TV. Yeah, you weren't in it before TV was cool. It was extremely unpopular. It was thought of, first it was the pioneer way of experiencing. It pioneered a way of experiencing stories that people hadn't been doing really, which was television in the 50s and 60s.

And then it became all about movies when movies could become sort of the signature of something meaningful. And once we succeeded at movies, I really wanted to go back to television. And the disruptions that you're talking about are often, you know, they're about distribution. Or if it's tech...

Most of those are very advantageous for us because we're storytellers and we're collaborating with storytellers. And all the technical innovations have either impacted distribution, where are people seeing it, how are they seeing it, and that certainly influences us because we have to decide how to tell a story and how do we expect it to be seen and so forth. But the other thing is,

As my friend George Lucas said, it's just trying to get more of the director's mind's eye onto the screen more effectively in a cost-responsible way. On the point of distribution, obviously, it used to be that, well, the studio releases a movie in a theater, and then it goes on video, and then it goes the way they want it. Now, it's much more the people watch where they want to, right? So you guys might make a very big-budget movie that's

with the best possible picture and sound made to be experienced in a theater, and a lot of people might end up watching it on their phone. So how do you, do you just embrace that, that's where the audience is, or do you feel like everything should be done to try to get people to see movies in theaters where they're made to be seen? - You're talking to me as a director? - Yes, as a filmmaker. - As a filmmaker. - Yes. - Of course I want the maximum number of people to see it, you know, in its, you know, as it was designed and executed to be seen.

But all my life, more people have seen my movies on TV than on the big screen. You know, between VHS and DVD and syndication and networking. So I've always been aware of that reality. And I also remember that when I was a film student, I was cutting my teeth on movies

that were classics, and I was seeing them on my little small dorm room black and white TV at 3 o'clock in the morning, because, of course, you couldn't just download Grapes of Wrath or Citizen Kane. And I was having an experience. It wasn't the ideal experience. So I'm pretty philosophical about it. To this date, I'd say I'm agnostic. For me, I'm just practical. I don't care how people see it.

I don't want to, I can't regulate how people see things. I don't try to regulate anyone's behavior. So, and there are times that we have the contractual right after making a film to

to have it in theaters as opposed to streaming. And there are many times, even though we have the contractual right and muscularity to have it in a big screen, I'll look at it and I'll think it might be, this movie I'm thinking about right now, I thought it was a really good movie, but I did think it should be better experienced streaming. Do you want to tell us what that was? Yeah.

13 Lives. Okay. Yeah. It was a really good thriller and a true story. And Ron directed this particular movie. And it was a great movie and got lots of prestigious awards. But I just felt like, I don't know if they'll pay for that movie. It doesn't have any... It doesn't top line big stars. It doesn't make a star bigger than life. And that's... You have to do a lot of things to...

qualify, in my opinion, for a bigger-than-life experience where people are going to leave their house to go see it and some events play as a viewing spot. And that turned out to be the highest-testing movie we've ever had, by the way, when we had our test audiences. But I still understand what Brian was talking about. We were coming out of COVID.

Not a lot of movies people weren't going out to see. You were kind of mad at me, though. Yeah. Not really. Sure, right. And the last thing you want is a box office flop. If, you know, you want people... Yeah. It's very hard to get people into theaters now, obviously. You want momentum. Yes, yes.

Things don't work without momentum. That makes sense. And creativity stagnates if it doesn't have momentum. Let's talk about the newest creative technology that affects creativity in Hollywood, which is AI. So I know everybody in Hollywood is using AI, but nobody wants to admit it because they don't want to upset people.

I'll admit it. Okay, good. Great. So I want to ask you, what are you doing with AI right now? And what do you think will be its future for filmmaking and TV production and everything? I'll say what we're doing and what we would do with it. But we use it in all different forms. We do it, obviously, for post-production and production efficiencies. I personally use it to collaborate in...

if I have an idea or an area, like as Ron pointed out, I meet a new person every week that's expert in some other field. So I get excited about things. I got excited about the military and about drone technology and defense tech.

But I'll throw out an idea and then you can just build it and then give it to professional writers to write. I might get an out, be able to produce an outline of what I would like to see or what I'd like to see in the frame. But ultimately, someone has to have the artistic finesse to write it to actually ignite real emotion in human beings.

You mentioned the word efficiencies, which can also, as we all know, mean job loss. I mean, is it realistic to think that some of the craftspeople in the world of filmmaking, visual effects artists, animators, production designers, that that work is, there's going to be fewer people working in film to do those jobs because AI is going to take some of that work? Well, I think that, look, I think it's going to affect every business, right?

in the way that you're talking about, every single business. So it's not exclusive to the creative parts. Hard to tell what the shift is going to be at this point. I mean, right now, you know, it's primarily a research tool. And, you know, it's almost like a backboard. It works very dynamically and quickly. I think you sometimes ask it to do tasks that you wouldn't even bother to. It's not like you're replacing a room full of writers. Yeah.

Because everyone is so fluent in this vocabulary of AI at this point, as are we. Nobody can point to where AI could produce soul or life essence. And the best entertainment, storytelling, movies and television...

usually become memorable because you feel the soul or energy of something that is another dimension. And the great ones like Oppenheimer was certainly one of them. Some of ours have worked that way where you feel the soul of that person.

So 20 years ago or so, you know, when you guys, maybe when Hollywood is at its height, there's all this DVD money, production companies like Imagine, you know, you guys and all your competitors would regularly get a percentage of every dollar of revenue, gross points, as they call it in the industry, sometimes before a movie even made a profit. Studios would give you millions of dollars a year to cover your overhead. It was a very lush time for a lot of production companies. Thank God. Those lavish deals have pretty much disappeared with the end of DVD revenue. So,

So how has the economics of running Imagine Entertainment changed? How have you evolved running the company now compared to those times when there was so much more money flowing through the business? Oh, I would say, well, first of all, this is one of our best years. We're now currently in production on five movies. So we just all collectively, with Justin and his team and Ron and I, with us collectively all working together,

as a unit, we have the energy to do that. And so that produces real money. But the, so, you know, we have branded, you know,

that we do now. And you know what? We're not doing commercials, but we're dealing with brand narratives and themes within and historical moments that they've dealt with. And it's exciting. We find the stories within those collaborations and we're

and have a lot of fun doing it and a lot of excitement. So it's just broadened what we're capable of doing and along with that, it's broadened our potential for collaboration with business partners, but also, of course, with the creative community. So it's Brian and me, we're still loving it, we're still doing it, but it's also, you know, so many more voices that we're able to work with. Some of them are non-English speakers. We do different things. Yeah, right. I'm more of a prospector. I'm finding the place to be...

where we should drill. Ron is an excellent driller. And he can drill all the way through the center of the earth and bring dimension to it, which it already has, but he's able to animate those dimensions and become great films, the ones that you would know about, whether it's Backdraft about firemen or Ransom that even surprised me because it was...

dangerous and you know and then as as recent as the one he's now just worked with he we both like working with younger talent different talent we still love working with i love working with eddie murphy and tom hanks and and denzel but we also you just finished working with sydney sweeney and honor to armis minessa kirby and jude law and eden it's coming out right in august and we're working with kiki palmer and we have partnerships with glenn powell who's going to do something with us so we like to do things with uh

I think we're good at spotting talent and we like doing it. That's another thing. We're also trying to encourage a lot of creatives who are kind of hyphenates. They're entrepreneurial. Yeah, yeah. Like Glenn. Like Sidney Sweeney brought us a project after we worked together. And we're using what we know and the resources at our disposal to kind of help them begin to grow their businesses. And it's fun. ♪

So let's talk about big tech coming into Hollywood, right? So, you know, Netflix and Amazon, they're undeniably two of the most powerful companies in Hollywood right now. And Apple is also starting to find its footing in Hollywood. Meanwhile, some of the traditional studios and networks, I would say, are to varying degrees in kind of a state of existential crisis. So for you guys as producers, filmmakers, what's been the good and the bad of big tech companies coming into Hollywood?

Why don't you try that one, Ron? Well, look, anybody that comes in and fuels the market is a plus for a company like ours. And we've worked with all the big streaming companies. We have good relationships with

with them across the board. It also creates hunger elsewhere. Some of these companies that are experiencing a kind of an existential crisis, it's kind of like, it's not our problem unless we can help you. And of course, holistically, we want as many companies winning as possible, but it's even...

you know, interesting to see companies, you know, like Tubi take off. And I mean, so it really is dynamic. The important thing is, you know, and YouTube, and as Brian was mentioning, wherever a story can meet the audience, that intrigues us.

And whatever the format we've found, it can be exciting to us. So it's about aligning the appropriate story with the right home, the right partnership creatively and from a business standpoint as well. And I think, again, that's where our flexibility really is exciting for us and important.

In the past several years, Imagine has taken on outside investment and you guys have also explored a sale. I know obviously it hasn't happened. So do you want to at some point sell Imagine? Do you want Imagine to continue beyond your careers? And what would you imagine Imagine being without Ron Howard and Brian Grazer?

Well, we want to just grow Imagine. And so we're having a great time. Sure, we'd like Imagine to become something that continued to be stable and stood for something. Because young people want to be Imagine. They like the idea of it, the idea of two artists. I mean, I started as a writer. I'm not a great writer. You are Splash. I think that's a pretty good credit. Thanks.

So, but I had other helpers, too, along the way. We got nominated for it, but a lot of it was due to two writers named Lowell and Bob Lou. Right. In any event, Enron is a director in Hyphenate, and so I think they like that artists, well, we understand the language. We understand their, you know, their fears. We all have the same...

kind of fears, anxieties, hopes, dreams. Look, the content business has always been a dream business. You have to dream in order to do something great. You have to dream in order to get through all of the no's, even if you're at the highest level.

Steven Spielberg after Jaws had E.T. put into Turnaround. I mean, it's just insane like that. We're going to ask a minute of lightning round questions and then turn to the audience. So follow up, try to pin you down one last time. Do you want to sell Imagine? Is Imagine still for sale?

Not today. No. Not today. Okay. I'll take it. Maybe tomorrow. No. Not today. Not today. Not today. Yeah. So YouTube and TikTok, are they a good thing for filmmakers and producers? YouTube's amazing. Okay. Amazing. Is TikTok great or is it a waste of time that distracts people from important stuff? Fun. Fun for them. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

What project of yours do you think was most unfairly maligned by the critics in public? Fairly maligned? Wow, there's so many. I don't know. I've had some pretty big, without naming titles because there's been more than one, disparities between, you know, sort of audience response and critical response. And that's always frustrating. All right, fair enough. What imagined movie or TV show would you most like to revive or to reboot?

Revive or reboot? Yeah. Well, I like the idea of doing Sports Night again today. I'd really like that. We're doing The Burbs right now, which was a movie that I produced during a writer's strike, starred Tom Hanks, and now stars Kiki Palmer as a TV series. All right. Let's do an audience question or two. Please. Hi. Caroline Koster, Brooklyn, New York. We are so polarized in America right now. We all know the statistics, but...

I recently saw a study that said that there's something like 80 or 90 percent of Americans actually want to try to come back together. So I feel like you guys probably have some stories up your sleeves that would help with that. I'm wondering what they are and can you do them?

That's an easy one. Can you heal all of America's differences? No, no, no, no. But there is, look, there's conflict in that. And in conflict, there's drama and entertainment value. And so certainly we are always talking about shows that, you know, I sometimes talk to them as purple relationships, you know. So I think it's a time where storytellers can utilize this. And I think in Shining a Light on it, of course, that's

that's healing and revelatory because in the end of the day, we're all more alike than we are different. - Okay, great. All right, let's take another one. Sure, the next woman over there. - Hello, Hannah Daly from Cambridge. As some really prolific storytellers, how would you or what advice would you give to really strike the heart note with your audience and really get to the chord of that key message or that key story?

Well, just say what that means. What does it mean? Do you know what that means? So like really resonating with your audience when you're thinking about storytelling, how do you really get to that soul piece that you're talking about? For me, I try to find, I try to have a story that I think will be relatable to the audience that I'm trying to go after, that we're going after. Oh, go ahead. But I look at stories as there's the

external part of a story and then there's the internal part. The internal part is again the heartbeat or the soul of what that is. So you try to find a theme that is unifying. So if you do a movie, a movie or television show that ultimately is about family, parenting was about family, but then goofy arrested development was about family because it's about keeping family together. That will unify. That

If that's part of your question. For me, when I'm directing, you always hope you've discovered that. But then to me, I always say I choose the idea with my own heart and mind and belief.

And very quickly, it ceases to be mine and it starts to be the audience's. And it begins in pre-production. I'll start asking people, I'll pitch the idea, I'll talk about it, I'll include the crew. I'm always looking for those connections, those heartbeats. And then of course, the most edifying is when you eventually have your test screenings

which are always pretty shocking and pretty frustrating in some ways, but it's the only way to understand the way the story is communicating and the way it's landing. And then you, to the extent that you can continue to tailor, refine, and focus, you're always searching for that relationship, that connection. This has been fantastic. Unfortunately, our time is up. Ron and Brian, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Great.

That's all for today, Sunday, June 1st. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Special thanks to Kelly Clark. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.