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cover of episode Israel’s Other Intractable Conflict (Part 1)

Israel’s Other Intractable Conflict (Part 1)

2024/8/2
logo of podcast The New Yorker Radio Hour

The New Yorker Radio Hour

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David Remnick
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Nathan Thrall
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Raja Shehadeh
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David Remnick:本节目探讨了以色列持续占领西岸的复杂问题,以及由此引发的冲突和人道主义危机。通过与以色列和平活动家、记者和巴勒斯坦律师的对话,揭示了占领对巴勒斯坦人民生活造成的深远影响,以及以色列社会内部对此问题的不同观点。节目还讨论了国际社会对以色列占领的反应,以及未来和平解决的可能性。 Nathan Thrall:通过其著作《阿贝德·萨拉玛的一天》,作者详细描述了以色列占领如何使巴勒斯坦人的生活变得压抑、绝望和几乎无法忍受。他指出,以色列在西岸的策略是将巴勒斯坦地区分割成多个孤立的区域,这与以色列在加沙地带的策略类似。他还强调,许多以色列人对占领的情况缺乏了解,这使得解决问题更加困难。 Raja Shehadeh:作者认为,以色列的目标是将巴勒斯坦人赶出西岸,并吞并这片土地。他指出,以色列的吞并政策意在只吞并土地,而非人民,这将导致类似南非种族隔离制度的局面。他还认为,以色列对巴勒斯坦的恐惧并非仅仅出于安全考虑,更在于承认巴勒斯坦国将挑战以色列的建国神话。他强调,只有在相互承认的基础上才能实现和平,而和平才是以色列最好的安全保障。

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Israel has occupied the West Bank of the Jordan River since 1967, after the third Arab-Israeli war, and ever since Israelis have settled on more and more of this contested land. Violence by armed settlers against their Palestinian neighbors has increased dramatically in recent years, as a far-right government came to dominate Israeli politics. Unless things change, the American journalist Nathan Thrall tells David Remnick, the future for Palestinians is “not unlike that of the Native Americans.” Thrall won a Pulitzer Prize for his book “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama,” which uses one isolated incident—a road accident in the West Bank—to illustrate the ways in which life under occupation has become nearly unlivable for Palestinians. On July 19th, the United Nations’ International Court of Justice issued an advisory ruling that the occupation violates international law. While the world’s attention is focussed on the devastating war in Gaza, and the escalating conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, the occupation of the West Bank remains a fundamental challenge for any peaceful resolution. 

Remnick also speaks with the Palestinian lawyer and author Raja Shehadeh, a longtime advocate for peace with Israel who lives in Ramallah. Palestinians “are, in a sense, living under a different law than the law of the settlements. And so the settlers are going to be part of Israel, and the laws of Israel apply to them—and that's annexation—but not to us. There will be two communities living side by side, each subject to different laws, and that’s entirely apartheid.” Shehadeh’s new book is titled “What Does Israel Fear from Palestine?” He argues that, as much as a concern for their security, many Israelis refuse to contemplate a two-state solution because recognizing Palestinians’ claims to nationhood challenges Israel’s national story.   Although Thrall believes that any false hope about an end to the conflict is damaging, he acknowledges that U.S. sanctions on violent settlers is a meaningful step, and Shehadeh sees the I.C.J.’s ruling as a new degree of global pressure. “That could bring about the end of the era of impunity of Israel,” Shehadeh believes. “And that can make a big difference.”