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cover of episode Israel’s Other Intractable Conflict (Part 2)

Israel’s Other Intractable Conflict (Part 2)

2024/8/6
logo of podcast The New Yorker Radio Hour

The New Yorker Radio Hour

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David Remnick
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Nathan Thrall
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Raja Shehadeh
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Nathan Thrall:特朗普政府可能使局势恶化,允许以色列采取更严厉的行动,例如驱逐加沙地带的巴勒斯坦人。民主党政府虽然不太可能在政策上做出重大改变,但可能采取一些渐进的措施,例如加强对暴力定居者和定居点组织的制裁。以色列对巴勒斯坦的政策并非党派问题,而是所有政府的共识,导致巴勒斯坦人持续困境。他批评了中心左翼的乐观主义,认为这掩盖了持续占领的现实,并可能导致巴勒斯坦人面临类似于美国原住民的未来。他认为,打破这种虚假的乐观主义,才能避免最坏的结果。 Raja Shehadeh:加沙战争使局势复杂化,但国际法院和国际刑事法院的裁决和行动,标志着以色列有罪不罚的时代可能结束,这可能带来重大变化。他认为以色列右翼和宗教右翼势力的增强,将导致其陷入持续战争的困境,最终可能导致美国停止对其支持。以色列需要与巴勒斯坦人和平相处,第一步是结束占领,建立独立的巴勒斯坦国,之后再寻求更长远的合作,最终可能走向统一。如果以色列不与巴勒斯坦人和平相处,它将不再是一个犹太人占多数的国家。他认为一国方案目前不可行,需要经过多年的准备,首先应该致力于两国方案。中东地区所有小国最终都需要走向统一,才能繁荣发展。巴勒斯坦人现在承认以色列人民和国家的合法性,但和平需要以色列承认巴勒斯坦作为国家的合法性。 David Remnick:作为访谈主持人,引导讨论,并总结发言者的观点。

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Nathan Thrall discusses the potential impacts of a Trump presidency on the Israel-Palestine conflict, including increased violence in Gaza and the possibility of U.S. sanctions on violent settlers.

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Israel has occupied the West Bank of the Jordan River since 1967, after the third Arab-Israeli war, and ever since Israelis have settled on more and more of this contested land. Violence by armed settlers against their Palestinian neighbors has increased dramatically in recent years, as a far-right government came to dominate Israeli politics. Unless things change, the American journalist Nathan Thrall tells David Remnick, the future for Palestinians is “not unlike that of the Native Americans.” Thrall won a Pulitzer Prize for his book “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama,” which uses one isolated incident—a road accident in the West Bank—to illustrate the ways in which life under occupation has become nearly unlivable for Palestinians. On July 19th, the United Nations’ International Court of Justice issued an advisory ruling that the occupation violates international law. While the world’s attention is focussed on the devastating war in Gaza, and the escalating conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, the occupation of the West Bank remains a fundamental challenge for any peaceful resolution. 

Remnick also speaks with Palestinian lawyer and author Raja Shehadeh, a longtime advocate for peace with Israel who lives in Ramallah. Palestinians “are, in a sense, living under a different law than the law of the settlements. And so the settlers are going to be part of Israel, and the laws of Israel apply to them—and that's annexation—but not to us. There will be two communities living side by side, each subject to different laws, and that's entirely apartheid.” Shehadeh’s new book is titled, “What Does Israel Fear from Palestine?” He argues that, as much as a concern for their security, many Israelis refuse to contemplate a two-state solution because recognizing Palestinians’ claims to nationhood challenges Israel’s national story.   Although Thrall believes that any false hope about an end to the conflict is damaging, he acknowledges that U.S. sanctions on violent settlers is a meaningful step, and Shehadeh sees the I.C.J.’s ruling as a new degree of global pressure. “That could bring about the end of the era of impunity of Israel,” Shehadeh believes. “And that can make a big difference.” 

Plus, for the fiftieth anniversary of Philippe Petit’s famous high-wire walk between the Twin Towers of the old World Trade Center—a quarter mile up in the air—The New Yorker’s Parul Sehgal reads an excerpt from Gwen Kinkead’s Profile of Petit titled “Alone and in Control).”