House of the Dragon: Ep. 6 “The Princess and the Queen”
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Aemond, you're the only one of us without a dragon, so we found one for you. Behold, the Pink Dread! Be sure to mount her carefully. First flight's always rough. I'm Aegon Targaryen, and this is Jackass. Bring it on in! Bring it on in!

Fun little pranksters. Fun little prince pranksters. Oh, my God. Is that fun? Is that fun? I gotta say, I don't think it's safe to bring a prey animal down into the dragon pit. Like, let's put it off to the side and not down where the dragons are. Yeah. That said, I would love an interspecies friendship between a dragon and a kitten or something. Like, that would make me really happy, actually. It would. I think it would be very short-lived, but it would be fun. Yeah.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones nerd or you have just started your journey with dragons with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. Well, that was a jump. That was a time jump. Yeah, yeah, that was a hell of a time jump. It's

Today is a very exciting episode because we have co-showrunner, director, and EP Miguel Sapochnik on the show, giving us all the behind-the-scenes details on bringing House of the Dragon to the screen. But first, what do we think of this episode? ♪

I mean, this was definitely one of the more complicated episodes we've seen. You know, I would so much rather be thrown into something than, like, have a bunch of ham-fisted dialogue explaining everything I should have figured out that happened over the last 10 years. So I thought it was really well done, but it was also like, oh, wow, a lot of things happened. What'd you think? Yeah, you definitely sit forward. I just want to shout out also the unbelievable cinematography and direction on the opening scene, which is a one-shot, which you don't even notice, you know? Like, you don't...

notice that it isn't until they arrive at the queen's chambers that it quote unquote cuts maybe there's some hidden cuts in there but it's super well done in a real-time shot where you go right from delivery oh my in real time to renero struggling to walk over to the queen's chamber so you get to experience that with her in the same amount of time that she would have done that

While that was taking place, which was just really, really great storytelling. That is really cool. Yeah, it almost felt like a completely different show, especially in those first couple minutes in a way that I really enjoyed and found super engaging. Yeah. Should we do our little recap and then get to it? Let's do it.

Awesome. Okay, so as we said, 10 years have passed since episode five. Rhaenyra, Alicent, Laenor, and Laena are all played by new actors. There are a lot of gaps to fill in over the decade. We know now that Daemon and Laena got married. They had two daughters. Laena's pregnant with her third at the beginning of this episode. Viserys is somehow still alive. He and Alicent have three kids. Aegon is a teenager and seems like a real Joffrey, if you ask me. Yeah.

Speaking of Joffreys, Rhaenyra had her third son, who Laenor names Joffrey. And all of those boys look a lot like Ser Harwin Strong, which is a hot piece of goss on King's Landing these days. Something else everybody's talking about is the fact that the triarchy has aligned with Dorne, which also seems ominous. This episode has some brutal depictions of childbirth, torture, and burning alive, which is maybe just what you want in an episode of Game of Thrones. Well, should we dive in? Let's dive into it.

This is the episode where it's nature versus nurture. You can feel the intergenerational baggage. Oh, my God. Those suitcases stuffed full of toxic waste being passed from parent to child. I like to think of rooms with boxes on shelves. But yeah, whatever it is. I know you think you're friends with these boys, but I've got all your toxic waste that you're going to need to go through. Oh, yeah.

Well, and just the fact that, like, everybody's married with kids now, too, is just such a huge shift from what we saw even an episode ago. It was kind of mind-blowing. You know, it's interesting thinking about the way the parents, you know, goals and fears and anxieties are being passed. When we see Egon, Eamon, Jace, and Luke as...

at Jace's dragon training session, Aegon is saying we a lot. Like when they do the pink dread, the pig prank on Aemond, Aegon, first of all, the ringleader, and second of all, he's saying, we have a present for you. It's like, if left alone,

you get the feeling that these boys would just be friends. I mean, sure, they would squabble occasionally, but, like, look at them. They're just doing kids' stuff. Yeah, but you agree that Aegon does seem like a monster over the course of this episode, right?

I actually thought he seemed other than what, like the public masturbation, I think is probably we need to reign that. Let's reign that in. But other than that, he's making fun of his little brother. I know. But isn't that normal? Like sibling stuff? He shouldn't do it. Right. Yeah. It's also like not King Joffrey. Like I'm shooting women with crossbows. The bar is in hell. Yeah.

The bar is absolutely in hell. And when Allison confronts him about like, okay, whose idea was this prank on your brother? He's like, it was Jace. It was the two of them.

Emmond is your brother. Oh, he's a twat. We are family. Yeah, but he also blames his cousins. He says it was their idea. I think he's an asshole. I'm going to stand by this. I think that he seems like a pretty normal 14, 15-year-old kid who doesn't want to get into, like, a deadly family civil war with these other kids that he's growing up with, if not for the fact that, like, he's being pushed in every second to do it. He's being trained in the yard to kill these kids. And he kind of doesn't want to. Ugh.

Yeah. Okay, so should we talk about the other kids? Should we talk about the parentage issue? Well... First of all, how dare you call it an issue? How dare you bring up this vile allegation?

I will say in the books, there is obviously because it's not a visual medium, there feels like a little more plausible deniability. Potential question. But yeah. And not to mention the way that Harwin acts around them, which is like, don't you have an entire city police force to run? No, man, he's busy. He's got to take him to the dragon pits. Aren't you the commander of the city watch? What are you doing up here? Like watching kids spar?

He seems like a more present parent than Laenor did, you know? It's a great point because even Rhaenyra has to say, hey, you're their dad, remember? Yeah. You can't just be like, hey, there's a cool war going on. I'm out. I've been hanging out with this cute soldier. Yeah, I have to raise my kids. That's what you should be thinking rather than have like this vile slander that's going around the realm that...

amplified by the fact that you're just like, hey, I'm going to go wink at some sailors and go play a war. Her words, not mine. I really did like the interaction between the two of them because you get the sense that while she's irritated with him, they're still a team in a really interesting way. They still are upholding their ends of the bargain. And even the moment, you know, you mentioned the amazing cinematography of the scene when they're walking over to see the queen and

He says, I took a lot through the shoulder once. My deepest sympathies. And she's like, yeah, bro, you want to talk about pain right now? Like, I just, I thought it was great. I thought it was a really interesting interaction and a fun little glimpse into their dynamics where like, they're calling each other on bullshit, but they're still showing up for, you know, he's still helping carry her down the hallway to the Queens.

I completely agree. In fact, I would say that to this point in our story, they have the healthiest relationship of anybody in this show because while they don't agree on things, they also just air all their differences. They just bring it up and talk about it. And they, you know, it gets to the point where Rhaenyra is just like, yeah, you can bring, bring Carl. We need him. Right. Totally. Totally.

An acceptance of the reality of what is happening. And she calls him on his ship. Yeah, there's an honesty to it that's kind of cool. And it's really, really refreshing. And when she pulls rank, he respects it. When she says, as your future queen and princess, I order you to stay here and raise your kids. He's like, okay. Yeah. I'm not happy about it, but I'll do it. I mean, that is, if only the rest of the realm operated this way. No kidding. And there were so many...

interesting mirror moments, you know, Laenor taking a different angle on Corlys' storm metaphor. Well, and for him to have the twist and then for her to bring it up again. The wise sailor flees the storms it gathers.

Another great example of the respect they have, because when she calls him on it, he just goes, yeah, that's right. He gives her that little nod like, yeah, you're right. You got me on that one. That's right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I was really struck by the contrast of Harwin and Rhaenyra and Harwin's

absolutely unmistakable affinity for Jason Luke, both in the queen's chambers when he's like, can I hold this newborn child who is not related to me in any fucking way? Like, why am I here? And later in the, in the yard where he's getting on Cole for not coaching up the kids and being like, Hey, keep your sword up to Jace. Like you could never let them get a moment's hit on you. And contrasting that with the absolute stern, stern,

still like doubling down of what are you talking about this is not my child how dare you oh my god it is quite a thing i assumed rainier and leaner would at least like do what they needed to do to produce an heir and i get that i mean you know to each their own but you know it's just like oh damn and like rainier like you're just gonna keep banging knights like is that how this works

Listen, I think Alicent, who incredible flip for her from the previous episode to this one, you know, in the previous episode where she was giving where she was so generous to Rhaenyra almost to the last moment. And now where it's curdled, it's pure hatred now. And so not to take her side, but I got to agree. Rhaenyra, one is like, OK, we got away with it.

Three is someone is going to die. And indeed did. It's like, yeah, yeah. This is dangerous now. Yeah. You need to figure out, get the maesters involved, like something. Yeah. Some way to have an actual child with Leenor. You had to figure that out. It's too late now, but. Yeah. I think especially it felt a bit disingenuous to me that she would be this worried about the rumor after three children. I don't know. It just seems like.

Something that would have maybe reached a fever pitch slightly earlier than this precise moment. You know what's interesting, though, is her generosity at the end of this, which is like, what an incredible olive branch. My son, Jocerys, will inherit the Iron Throne after me. I propose we betroth him to your daughter, Helena. Additionally, if Cyrax brings forth another clutch of eggs, your son, Aemond, will have his choice of them, a symbol of our goodwill.

Allison doesn't go, oh, that's actually, you know what? That's a good deal. She goes, I've got her on the ropes. Yeah. I've got her. I just got to keep pushing. Well, she's like leaking out of her nipples. I mean, it's a very intense scene for a number of reasons, that scene. I mean, the metaphor there, right? It's like, here's an attempt at rapprochement and what

comes between them is literally the milk of her motherhood and the sustenance for her children, you know? Yeah. Well, and the other thing about that scene, too, is, like, Viserys seemed like he was feeling pretty good for, like, 44 minutes of this episode, and then it was just, like, right back down. It's like, oh, damn it. He's still not okay.

There is a good argument for, throughout so far what we've seen of this series and going back to Game of Thrones, for there being no happier person than Viserys holding his grandchildren. Oh my God, yes. It's so pure and real. I think you can make an argument that he was weak before this, but he has...

He is, like, impotent now. Like, people are just pushing him around willy-nilly. Well, and to see how much Alicent is involved in things in a way she was not 10 years ago was also really interesting. She's at the small council.

the way she says to him as they're walking up to the king's chambers, you know, she says, you know, the king is like, oh, this is great. You know, we're all a family. Yeah, how nice. They're going to get married. It's going to be sweet. Yeah, I'm going to marry. Unity and stuff. Yeah, she's really reaching out. This is great. And then she says, you may do as you wish, husband, but I am cold in my grave. Alicent,

my dead body. Could you imagine Alicent, the previous version of Alicent saying that to the king? No, it was perfect. You know, that's another moment where you can feel how much time has passed and you can feel that King Viserys has just let go of the rope. This is a guy who is just, he is counting down the days till he doesn't have to deal with this shit anymore and he is slipped from this mortal coil. Oh,

Oh, my God. And just the scene with the cushions and the blanket with him in the chair. I thought that was just such an amazing distillation of, you know, at this point, more than 10 years of marriage between them, though. And how much power she wields between the two of them was just and it was like kind of it was a bit wry. Like, I just thought it was a great there were a lot of really great couple married with children interactions in this episode.

So do you know? Absolutely. Going back to that small council scene, which turns into a little bit of a sparring match between Rhaenyra and Alyson before Rhaenyra finally offers that olive branch. It's interesting the levels to like this kind of the nature versus nurture theme, because what they're talking about as they open is the feud between the Blackwoods and the Brackens, which we've talked about, which is another intergenerational feud, a feud that has gone on so long that legitimately neither family remembers Rhaenyra

what started it. And fun fact, they mentioned Lord Grover Tully. Lord Grover Tully's grandson is named Elmo and his great grandson will be named Kermit. Really? Yes. George, that makes me so happy. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's a really fun fact, Jason. That might be the best book fun fact that you have given us over the course of these episodes. Well,

Whenever I hear about Lord Grover being in the mix, I'm like, great guy. But I can't wait for his grandson and great-grandson to get in the mix. So still no Cookie Monster Tully then yet? Unfortunately, no. Well, maybe eventually. It's not too late, right? So I think speaking in the small council meeting, I would love to discuss what's happening between the Triarchy and Dorne.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So we've talked about this. Yeah, it's been brewing. Touched on it. The threat that because Dorne, the southernmost region of the continent of Westeros, is an independent kingdom not brought into the realm yet, there is the threat that the Triarchy could link up with Dorne and now you'd have this very threatening alliance right on the doorstep of the realm. And indeed, it seems as if

That is occurring. You know, that is a good example of unfinished business. I think that Renier is exactly right in that we needed to handle this business. Yes, it would have been expensive to like build fortresses there. But now we're going to have a war. And is that not in itself expensive? And

This leads us to Daemon. It's interesting to see Daemon over in Pentos where that is a city state that would be very threatened by the rise of the Triarchy. Yeah, he seems threatened. That Pentoshi magister is indeed talking about that. And that's also a place where the Valerian influence is strong. A lot of those families there, the people that live in that city are going to be descended from Valerian colonists, etc.,

So all of that history that Damon is able to read is going to be stuff that directly leads back to the place where his family is from. So, you know, that would be very interesting to him. That is interesting. Well, and you see, I mean, we learn a lot about Damon in this episode. You see him teaching one of his daughters, Valerian, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Which was nice. Should we talk more about what happens in Pentos? Because I feel a lot happens in Pentos. Sure. Let's talk about it. So fun fact about Pentos. We have been there before in the opening of Game of Thrones. Ilriomo Padas, who is the person that brokered the wedding between Daenerys and Khal Drogo. Oh, wow. It was a Pentoshi. And, you know, obviously a supporter of the Targaryen regime and interested in seeing them rise again and was kind of like tinkering geopolitically to bring that about.

So we've been there before. And that is a play. Pentos is a place that is, you know, oligarchical, very capitalistic society based on a slave holding economy. They've been to war with Bravo several times.

And, like, the rest of the Free Cities have a very kind of, like, fractious relationship with the rest of the city-states on the continent. Well, and based on this dude's concern about what's about to happen between Dorne and the Triarchy, essentially he's saying, we would love to broker a deal where y'all live here and you bring your dragons and you help us out. As your great ancestor Aegon the Conqueror once did. Yeah, yeah. Who we just happened to toast a moment ago. Interesting, too, that...

I guess we should talk about this because shouts to Liana for bagging Vhagar. Yes. The dragon flirting scene. The dragon flirting scene. So Vhagar, you know, there was hints of this. So Vhagar originally was written by Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror's sister, the more warlike sister. And Vhagar is just huge. And unless there's dragons that we don't know about in the world...

the oldest thing alive at this time. Very old, very huge, very slow, but very strong and big. And remember, we had those hints. I was going to say it was even Lyena who was asking Viserys about it, wasn't it? That's awesome.

When she says the merchants at Spicetown talk about hearing Vhagar's dragon songs, that gave us a hint that Vhagar was somewhere on Driftmark, around Driftmark. That's so cool. And clearly Lyanna was able to coax a bond with Vhagar, which is really cool. I suppose people would be interested in how Lyanna did this.

It's kind of like bonding with a horse in that it takes a lot of patience, obviously, because you could die very easily. Getting the dragon used to your presence, feeding the dragon, bringing it food, it's

talking to it until eventually you manage to create that bond. But it's a very, very, very risky thing to do. That's awesome. Do you know, did she do that before she married Damon? Well, in the book version, yes. So in the book version, what happened in this 10 years with Leanna is she was originally betrothed to someone else. Right. But Corliss was aware of Damon's interest and he liked that match.

And so they kind of delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed until they were able to kind of with dignity pass on from that previous marriage arrangement and then marry Lena to Damon. And there was obviously mutual interest there. Yes, there did seem to be obvious mutual interest. That's true. It's cool to think about how many little seeds have been dropped throughout the season so far that led to a lot of what we see in episode six. I mean, I think about even just that moment of them falling.

at the banquet together flirting, right? Where it's like, it was probably 30 seconds or less, but it did what the storytellers needed it to do in order for it to make sense when we saw it in episode six, which is cool. Absolutely. And I got it. Man, a lot of pregnant and recently not pregnant women just struggling to their feet and being tougher than anybody could possibly be. Oh, my God. What a sad end for Leanna. Yeah.

Yeah, that was devastating. Absolutely devastating. And she says in a scene previous to where she orders Vhagar to burn her, I want to die a dragon rider's death. I don't want to be out here in Pentos. Like, what are we doing here? You know? Yeah, it was really interesting, I thought, to compare that entire scene to what happened to Emma. Yeah. Because in a lot of ways, it

It's not that different. They were just having a really hard time delivering. I don't know if it's because the baby was breached as it was in Emma's case or what, but it was, you know, and Damon was essentially given the same scenario. The exact same scenario. Viserys was, right? It was, we can try to save this kid, but for sure mom's not going to survive it.

And for her to pick up on that as well as she did and to be like, you know what? I'm going to get the fuck out of here. And then Damon, I guess, like turned his back and Leanna got up and like juked the midwife guy and then got out. Like, yeah, yeah. Be on the ball here and pay attention to what's going on. Like, how did she get out? That's a fair point. Like, you know, what are you doing out here? Yes.

That's a fair point. Did you read Hesitation in Vhagar's giant soulful eyes in that moment? I thought that too. It's like, here's a character who we have not met before, has no lines, is a fictional creature, you know? Yeah. And yet still there was a really intense moment of emotional gravity in that scene, I thought. Very. I processed it that way. And also, you know, again, Vhagar is very, very old.

Scary huge, but also slow to move and slow to act and not as lively as some of these younger dragons like Caraxes or Cyrax.

So I read it as both the outgrowth of age and also like, wait, you're my rider. Why do you want this? I don't want to do this. Whatever the case, very, very sad. Yeah. So speaking of dragons, I would love to talk a little bit about who, especially now that we have eight children in this new generation, like who has dragons and who doesn't. We talked about it a little bit in the case of one of Allison's kids, who

But obviously there is some tension, let's say, about, you know, how the kids feel about it and how the parents feel about it. I thought it was very... There were a couple of interesting conversations around that in this episode. Yeah. So obviously it is a...

very, very important mark of authority and familial authenticity for a Targaryen to have a dragon. But as we hear Lyanna say, as she comes upon Rayla attempting to get her egg to hatch, which is apparently she's been doing for eight years, that even if you have the blood of the dragon, i.e. Targaryen lineage, and they do put, you know, it was common practice to put the egg in the cradle with a Targaryen babe, right?

in the hopes that it would hatch. They didn't always hatch. Maegor the Cruel notably did not have a dragon for many years of his early life. And so that, while it is just kind of like no one is sure why a dragon hatches or doesn't hatch, it would also be something to really be anxious about. And I think we see that Aemon Targaryen

is really, really anxious about it. We learn about his obsession with dragons. We learned that that's not the first time he has snuck down into the dragon pit to get a glimpse of these creatures. And we can also surmise from this that dragon eggs, while they are laid, there's currently, the supplies are very, very low. Supply chain on dragon eggs is just not there right now. And you're gonna have to wait.

Gonna be a while. Well, and there's that moment, too, as you mentioned with Lyanna. And which daughter was that? Was that... Rayna. Will they let me stay? The Prince of Pentos. He wants you and father. Because you have dragons. For a young girl to have that fear around, like, am I going to be welcome here if I don't have... Like, that's intense. Yeah.

Yeah, that's intense. And it's a lot. And again, like that is such an important status symbol for this family to have that. One wonders if Viserys, who last rode Balerion before Balerion died, actually had a dragon. Would people treat him differently? Would his orders have carried more weight? You know, it's one can only wonder. Yeah, I do think that's an interesting question.

And so now Alicent and Viserys have three children. That's right. Two of whom we have talked about. We have not talked about Helena yet. She does not have a dragon either, right? It's unclear at this time whether she has one.

But Helena, what an interesting little nerd she is. She loves those bugs. Math and science. She's really into the STEM fields. And I just love that for her. I absolutely love it for her. And I will say one thing. In the book, she's presented as they talk about her as being kind of odd, but very happy. I mean, she's definitely speaking cryptically in that scene about the bug. It's like, is it about the bug?

the bugs is it about yeah well yeah they're discussing amand and whether amand will ever ride a dragon and she makes a comment that is very interesting that is a good example of a change or maybe a deepening of that character from the books that gives her a perhaps a magical kind of quality we'll have to wait and see okay so we'll we'll keep an eye on that one

We got to talk about Allison and Laris at this point. I mean... Oh, my God. Yes. Dinner buddies. Dinner buddies. And clearly have been at this a while because Laris even says how much he's been providing Allison with information. Surely...

Harwin and Rhaenyra's alleged infidelities, the news of that would have traveled through Larys to get to Alyson. Well, also even the fact that, like, she's showing up late and he's already started eating. I mean, how often do you have plans with somebody where, like, that's what happens? You know what I mean? Like, even that was just such a strong sign, especially with the Queen. Like, you don't do that. Well, here's what I find really, really interesting and, like, realistic about this relationship. Okay.

He knows.

It's this real like respectability politics kind of angle to it. She is more than happy to lie and to put her fate in the hands of a guy who is about to murder his direct family members, who has clearly no like allegiance to anyone other than like the moment. And it leads me to a question that I think about a lot, which is how does

You know, what comes first? One's political beliefs, their moral beliefs or their personal beliefs? You know, like it seems to me like Alicent has a bunch of personal grievances and then she's like back mapped the world. She's a reverse engineer of the worldview to fit her dislikes, her likes and the things that she's afraid of and wants to happen.

I could totally see that. I do want to take issue with something you said, though, because I don't think she willingly put her fate in the hands of Laris. I think she was bitching. I think he put her in a very difficult position that she did not ask for. It may be the outcome that she had said she desired, but I do not think she would have said, you know, if you could just burn them alive, that would actually solve all my problems. I agree with you. She didn't come out and say it.

It was more of a, will no one rid me of this troublesome priest kind of thing. But, you know, there's a really great exchange here. It is now that I must rue the absence of my own father. He wouldn't hesitate to speak the truth to the king if Otto Hytale was still at hand. You cannot say, my queen, that your father would be impartial in this matter. No, but he would be partial to me.

That is the whole thing. Would have been on my team. And I think there, I think after 10 years, I don't disagree with you that it's not like first degree murder. But, you know, accessory. Sure. Whatever. I get that. Yeah. But I would say that after 10 years of dinners, you should have an idea of the person you're talking to by now. Totally. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I don't know. I just think especially given her reaction when she finds out what happened and he says something like, you owe me big time, bitch, more or less. Yeah, basically. Like, I'm sure you'll reward me at a certain date. Yeah. Yeah. Like that puts her in a position I do not think she would have asked for. You know, I agree with you in that she certainly did not see this exact outcome at the same time. Like the way she shoots Cole a look when Cole calls the princess a cunt.

Right. That was pretty great. And he apologizes for it. I thought that was really interesting. And the way she just lets Laris shit talk his own family without even blinking at it. Yeah. Tells you how blinkered she is in terms of seeing Laris as a person who can get her what she wants.

Does Laris fit with her worldview of honor and dignity and goodness and all that? No. But he is a tool to get what she wants. And she's willing to completely ignore all that stuff. And so did she know that he was going to kill his dad and his brother? Probably not. Oh, my God. But also she had to suspect that something bad was going to happen.

Does that make him air? Like, is that is there a self-serving element beyond blackmailing the queen? Oh, yeah. It tells us how Laris is going to work in this story and that everybody's going to be like, this guy's dangerous, but he's going to get me what I want. And I'm going to overlook this. Yeah, there's a level of deviousness of his character that I don't think we have seen in any other characters in this series yet. Yeah.

I completely agree. And back to our nature versus nurture theme, right? We understand how Aegon is being influenced by the things that go on around him and Aemond and Jace and Luke, et cetera. But like, Lionel Strong seems like a good, solid guy. Very honorable is like even Laris says. Yeah. Harwin Strong for his indiscretions, allegedly. You're really going to stick to that allegedly, huh? Hey, you know, there's no proof.

It seemed like a very solid guy and very interested in the well-being of a couple boys that maybe just looked like him. So where did Laris get this? You know, and it's a great question. Like, what happened to Laris that he is this curdled and devious person? Maybe not the deviousness, but the fact that he feels like such an outsider. We did talk about in other episodes. And I think...

You know, I mean, you also talked about the idea of him maybe playing up his disability to seem weaker than he even is. But this doesn't seem like a culture that is going to be super accommodating to someone with it. I think you're right. Like, it seems like that could do it of just like, you know, a lifetime of...

being overlooked and ignored, you know, I would probably want to fuck stuff up too. And not to mention like your older brother being the strongest guy in the realm. They call him Breakbones because he is the physically strongest man, as far as anybody knows, the strongest knight in the realm. You're absolutely right. That would cause no uncertain amount of jealousy. I can't overlook the fact that while Laris, I think you're right, I agree, completely plays up his weakness, so-called,

Man, when he goes out of the dungeons, he's got a little skip in his step. He's snapping that cane around. He has got a big smile on his face and he can't wait to see some tongues get cut off. Oh, my God. Yeah, he seems. Well, he's just in such a position of power in that moment. You can tell he's enjoying it. Absolutely. And now he's got something on the queen, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, that's huge. Huge. So as much as I really don't want to go back to the scene where we see Aegon wanking out the window, I do think the interaction between him and Alicent is very telling. And really, I mean, is it the only time in this episode we see Alicent really losing her shit? You are the challenge! You are the challenge, Aegon! Simply by living and breathing!

I think so. I mean, she gets pissed at Viserys, but she doesn't, like, the height of her emotion in that scene is extremely intense. I agree. Well, first of all, I just want to say, fun fact,

The Jack window appears to be the same window that King Tommen leapt out of years and years later. But it's an interesting mirror conversation from the one that Otto has with Alicent, right? Where she is now Otto, where she's saying, don't you realize? Yeah, you need to be scared. You need to be scared. You're a threat to them. I know you think that they're your friends and you're having these, you're playing pranks on your own brother with them, but they're going to kill you.

You're a threat to them and they're going to kill your brother and you need to get it together. So, yeah, really molding the future generation to hate their cousins. Yes. Can I make two word choice requests, though? Yeah. Can we never use the phrase jack window again? Should be a fap window, masturbation window. Yeah.

No, no, no. I think we just never need to discuss it again. I think we can just let it. It happened in the show. And so I don't know what to do. Other than say this. Okay. Mom, you got to knock. You've got a 15 or 16 year old son. The fact that she says nothing about. Oh, yeah, that was weird, too. Your son is 15 or 16 years old. Please knock. I'm surprised he isn't just like, oh, mom. God. God.

Xbox, what? I also think you're being a little liberal with the phrase fun fact. And I just want to call that out. Interesting anecdote. We would see that window again years later. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that amendment.

One thing our adept producer Molly wanted us to bring up, which I think is a really good one, is the symbolism and the presence of the rats. Because this was not the first episode where we saw some rats, but we haven't discussed them. Yeah, they're a symbol of decay, right? Of this vermin inside this glittering palace. At the same time, like, I think...

in a utilitarian way. This is a castle that we understand is riddled with secret passageways. How are these rats getting in? You think the rats got maps? You think they're flying literate rats? I think the rats absolutely know what the passages are, and I think we should wonder, as the king weakens and is near death...

And plausibly could die in his sleep at any time. Yeah. If someone might slip in through one of those rat passageways and kind of hasten things along their way. I think that's also a thing that we are meant to wonder about as well. There's leaks. Leaks abound.

Yeah. I mean, we saw with Damon, you can get anywhere in this castle that you want to if you know where to go. Right. Another thing I wanted to point out is this is also our most far flung episode that we've seen so far in this season, in these episodes. Right. Because we had people in all sorts of places. And it seems like that's probably going to continue, especially with Rain Era coming.

moving over to Dragonstone, taking the family over that way. Good idea, you think? I could see wanting to get the hell out of there for a minute. For sure. I don't know. It's one of those where it's like, I could see that you would think that that would immediately alleviate the tension, but it seems like if you're not...

you know, trying to reach out with olive branches, it's just going to deteriorate even worse, right? I'm in the same exact place. You can see how, especially with the way the realm is talking about recent events, the birth of a third child, the fight between Cole and the late Harwin Strong, that you'd want to get out of there. At the same time, I kind of agree with what Laenor says to Rhaenyra about,

Do you really want to leave the campfire at this particular time? It feels like as uncomfortable as it is. Yeah. I feel like you need to be close. Right. Yeah. You should be close. And it's also maybe not a good look. Right. To be like, you know what? We're going to get out of here. For no reason. Yeah. Yeah. So an interesting decision there. And one I wonder if it's wise or not, because, again, like the king's old. What do you think is going to happen if he goes and you're not there?

Shouts to him for making it. It didn't look good at the end of the previous episode. Oh my God, when he walked into the room grinning, I was just like, holy shit. Wow. He's like, Miss Aries, Miss Aries.

I was not expecting that. Definitely not. Definitely not. Whatever Grand Maester Melos has been doing and, you know, the maesters. I bet it was the poultices. I bet it was the poultices. They changed the poultice recipe. They got something. Yeah. They changed it up a little bit. Look what happened. Yeah. It's great. I did really love that moment with Viserys. I do hope the labor was easy.

I think I called the midwife a cunt. And he just sort of like gave her a little kiss on the cheek and was like, you did great, babe. I just thought it was a really cute, like his love for her, I think especially in that scene. Oh, it's so great. Was really sweet to see and a lovely reminder. You know, we've seen how complicated it can be between the two of them, but...

You know, you see like she's kind of come through with her end of their bargain and he's genuinely delighted and full of love for her, it seems like, which is nice. Yeah, and another kind of example of the personal...

you know, overriding the political, here is, as many say in this episode, the king is willfully blind to the truth that is in front of him. He tells that story about his mayor and the stallion and how it came out brown despite the fact that the stallion was silver. Oh my God. And Alistair's like, did you see them bang? Who knows?

He knows how nature works. Yeah, it's a mystery. Yeah, he was very willingly obtuse there. Absolutely. He is just so happy to have these grandkids after, you know, I'm sure in his mind, feeling like I caused the death of my wife. We see that heartbreaking moment where he's kissing Emma's ring as the rat is running across the fireplace. And here are these children that all of a sudden are springing up and he is delighted by it. And the idea that they wouldn't

be what they purport to be, does not, he can't even accept the mention of it in his presence. Well, they're still his grandkids. Yeah, he loves them. They're still his grandkids. It's wonderful. Yeah. And the way he like takes such an interest in the way they're training in the yard, which I guess we should talk about that too, because that was a tough scene to watch. I mean, Kristen Cole, what a heel turn from our guy. I know, wow.

I mean, I know what happened. She spurned him. She spurned him. He's pissed. You know, typically will take no responsibility for his own role in what happened. Ha ha ha.

Did the princess make an advance at you? Yes. Were you also involved in that? Yes. And he's sitting there acting like. Did you then beat a man to death at a party? Yes. And he's acting like, oh, this vampire has taken everything from me. And now look. And what has happened? He is now transferring that hatred to these kids. Yeah. In a way that is just patently.

I mean, when he's like, yeah, Aegon, Aegon versus Jace, let's go. There's like a what, a six, seven year difference? Go ahead. Yeah, that was a really, well, and then to see essentially the same thing playing out with another knight in Kingsguard beating the shit out of somebody, it's just sort of like, wow, y'all with the anger management. I'm glad that Harwin got a couple in before he got barbecued.

Good for him. That must have felt good. I know he lost his job and his dad got mad at him and yelled at him and tried to quit his job. And then he died. But that's not his fault. But but like that must you know, I'm glad he got a win and got a couple of licks on Cole for bullying his the kids that he takes an interest in.

Well, that is certainly a way of looking at it. But yeah, that's one of those where it's like, okay, dude, so you're the captain of the city watch. You're hanging around the yard watching these two boys train. Why? He's obviously their father. I'm just going to say it since no one else will. Um,

But I found that really heart wrenching, you know, that moment where he's like, Jace, keep your keep your sword up, you know, and then it's like, hey, are you going to train these kids or are you only going to train the silver haired ones? What are you doing? The fact that the kids are so literally pitted against each other and caught in the middle, like they have no shot. They have no chance.

at not being enemies. And you have to say, even though Aegon, you know, beats the brakes off Jace, Jace handles himself pretty well to the point where Aegon has to like... Yeah, he's scrappy. Aegon has to cheat and throw that dummy down. And then Harwin has to be like, hey,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So shouts to Jace, a little fighter. It is interesting to think about the nature versus nurture thing, especially in Aegon, who obviously I don't like because partly with that scene, too, he just seemed like such a bully. But then the other side of that is like these adults are literally telling him to be a bully. So what the hell else is he supposed to do? His mom's grabbing him by the neck and saying, you must hate these boys. I know you think that they're your friends, but they're trying to kill you.

Wow, I didn't think I'd end up feeling bad for a weird little horny opening today, but here we are. Well, is it time to segue to our death count? Oh, gosh, let's do it. Yeah, yeah. Certainly R.I.P. Lionel Strong. Yep. R.I.P. Harwin Strong, a.k.a. Breakbones. Yep. You seem like a great dad. Seemed like a great dad. Absolutely seemed like a great dad. R.I.P. Leia Valerian and her unborn child. Yep, that was pretty devastating for sure. That's four. And then, you know, I think that there were...

I didn't count up the charred bodies, but I'm sure that there were other fatalities in Harrenhal. Oh, yeah, it seemed like that was general carnage for sure. Yeah, a lot of burning bodies this episode. You know, it's a cursed, the castle is cursed, they say, and these things happen. Yeah.

Okay, Jason, it is time for our interview of this episode. Let's talk showrunners because we are about to speak with the co-showrunner of House of the Dragon EP and director Miguel Sapochnik. Or if you're Fabian Frankel, you just call him Mig, which I loved. Yes. Have we earned the right to call him Mig? We're going to try. I don't know. Not yet. Yeah, I think we should wait till the end and then see how that goes. Really excited to have this conversation. Have a listen.

Today is a very special day for the official House of the Dragon podcast because we are joined by Miguel Sapochnik. If you are a Thrones fan, you are probably most familiar with Miguel's work as the director of many pivotal episodes of Game of Thrones, including the Emmy award-winning Battle of the Bastards. Miguel has also directed for shows like House and True Detective and recently directed the 2021 film Finch starring Tom Hanks.

But today we are talking to Miguel because he is also the co-showrunner, EP and director for the HBO original House of the Dragon. Miguel, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Hi, thank you. Miguel, for some of our listeners, maybe who aren't the most TV savvy, I wonder if you might tell us what it means to step from director to co-showrunner.

And the most savvy as well. I don't know if anybody really knows what it means. I spent quite a while pondering that one because it's an interesting dilemma. I think that directing for a feature film is much like show running a television show in that the creative buck

and sometimes financial bucks stops with you. It took me a while to figure that out. And then I was trying to work out what was the comparative study I could make. And I just kept coming back to the idea that everything I was doing in show running was something that I would do if I was directing a film and having just recently directed one, the memory's still fresh in my mind. It seemed like the easiest analogy. So I'd say when I was directing as an episodic director on Game of Thrones,

It evolved over time that I worked more and more one-on-one with David and Dan as their director. They were writers, producers. I directed eventually in season eight. I was also involved in the producerial side of things. But if you have a good relationship with your partners, what you end up doing is you collaborate on everything. So that's been going on for a while. So this in a way was an extension of that, but with Ryan instead of David and Dan.

This episode opens with a 10-year time jump as we catch up with Princess Rhaenyra. What are the issues that you're thinking about when approaching something like this? The time jumps were in there from the start, and I want to say they were a little more extreme than they are now. They were also from age, if I remember correctly, it was ranging from maybe 12 or 13-year-old to 20, 22 years down the line.

And it was immediately concerning that we were doing a season that had as many time jumps as this has. Just literally from the perspective of time jumps can be incredibly...

They can be distracting, confusing. There's many things they can be. It's rarely that people say, I love that time jump. You know, it's not generally the response. Totally seamless. Yeah. And so there was a lot of discussion about how are we going to do this? I'm a huge believer in leaning into disadvantages. So if there's something that concerns you, leaning into it helps rather than trying to skirt around it, I think. And so here it was,

I think it was Jacques Oliard. I've been watching these, the beat my heart skipped and read my lips and a profit and just generally French filmmaking, which I think is usually pretty amazing. Most British filmmakers wish they made French movies and the French filmmakers wish they made British movies. Really strange. But the, but I,

What I loved about the way that he tells stories is you get dropped right in it. There's no explanation. It's a case of catch up. And I find that thrilling as an experience as an audience member. And so we decided that we would start with the largest time jump, which is from five to six, and we would just drop everybody in it. And we knew we had to recast our actors. We knew that that was going to be discombobulating for everybody anyway, but

so we can't avoid it therefore we have to lean into it and i think the conversation started in script writing stage saying can we just spend some time with them walking around like wouldn't it be because you never get to do that in game thrones basically essentially you're always it's like merchant ivory movies it's like there's a room they one person walks in the other person's already there they talk about you know

Like Eddie Izzard said, did you fuck my wife? And then no, and then they go out and that's it. Couple, we use couple here. Sorry, sorry. Did you couple with my wife? Doesn't have the same ring to it. So here it was suddenly, we knew we wanted to evolve the style of the show and part of evolving the style of the show is it being fun.

driven by a story need. And here we need, we needed to spend time with these actors as these characters. And so it felt like,

I wanted to see them walk up the stairs. I wanted to see them walk, you know, in silence down a corridor. And obviously doing that with no real reason is much harder, especially in a television show where it's everything. So your time is so precious in a way. And the birth thing was in the air. We knew we needed a number of births in this particular episode. And so the,

The idea of doing a continuous take evolved from that because we thought what better way to spend time with them than having a continuous shot where we could see them in between their lines as it were. So that was a hefty distraction as to the fact that we just dumped 10 years. So the hope is...

People are going, oh, look, she's giving birth. Oh, that must be Rhaenyra. Wait, that must be Laenor. Oh my God, they're 10 years older. Oh, but now, oh look, you know, and just, it's kind of like a bright, pretty thing over here. And then by the time they reach Alicent's room, you're in, I think. I mean, I find Olivia and Emma and Jon enthralling to watch and, yeah,

I was surprised how quickly they became the characters. And I was extremely content and happy to be there and I wasn't struggling. I thought it worked beautifully. I was fascinated by it as someone especially who hasn't read the source material yet.

And... I really appreciated the fact that they felt different in a way that 10 years would make a person feel different if you hadn't seen them in 10 years, you know? But there was still enough consistency about their characters and the relationships they had that I thought it totally worked. It was fascinating to get to know all of them. The other thing I was, you know, that caught my eye initially was I thought, of course, that this would be Rhaenyra's first child since they had just gotten married in the last episode. So to find out that...

this is her third and they've been married for that long. I mean, the whole thing was...

mind-blowing, I think, in the best possible way as an audience member, you know? Good. I mean, I'm glad that, and that's the Jacques Audiard thing. It's like, it was, it felt like, let's not explain anything. And then it gets richer the longer you keep watching. And if we have succeeded in doing that, I'm extremely happy. I think it was, it was probably from a technical storytelling perspective, it was the most challenging thing to figure out what we're going to do to get past this hump and

The actual continuous take was the easiest continuous take I've ever done. Wow. We built that set for that shot. I mean, we didn't. Don't tell anybody. But the...

Great, great. Glad you said it into a microphone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if I remember correctly, the Red Keep existed in three different stages or maybe it was two different stages. It was hard to do much of a walk and talk. It was limited. And so when we were building and designing this Red Keep...

there are so many conversations about, you know, how do we build on what we've done in the previous show? How do we not repeat ourselves? How do we, are we familiar and yet different? All of these things. And then there was the practical, pragmatic thing of like, how is it going to be interesting to keep watching this same world? And it struck me that

There's a certain beauty when you are able to follow people and see everything connected and it makes you feel like it's in a real space and it created environment for the actors that they felt like they were in a real space. You literally feel like you're in a castle in the set when you go into there. And I think once we started that process, I was like, well, we have to do a scene where we actually use it because otherwise I'll feel like a complete plonker. And so you did it in an episode.

That reminds me of something that I, you know, I interview a lot of authors on the other show I host and...

You know, often they'll talk about part of their creative process is just writing scenes that they know won't end up in the book, but they just need to get to know the characters. And I think it's really resonating with the idea of you saying, let's just hang out with these people. And now that they're 10 years older and see where it goes, was there ever a point with that continuous shot where you thought you might not use it, but you knew you needed to try it out anyway? Or did you always figure it would become a part of that episode? From bitter experience, I have learned...

Cover your bases. So there's a version of that sequence covered in separate shots. So basically I did, we did the single shot and then we set the cameras up in two different setups, two different positions where essentially we could do the scene in sections if we needed to cut out, if it got boring, just because you have to, because you're making something and you have a responsibility to the people that you're making it for that you don't end up with a boring opening sequence that let's face it, continuous shots happen.

When they work, they're great. When they don't, you really have to ask yourself, why are we looking at this? And I've done enough continuous shots that I need them like a bullet in the head at the moment. So I was not the thing that I was going, oh my God, must do a continuous shot. This is it. Yeah, this is it. Exactly. This is the big one. People will remember me for this. So it was a great relief when it worked, but also when it actually added to the story, especially the point on the stairs.

That wasn't in the script. And so then once I showed Sarah, and by Sarah, I mean Sarah Hess, one of our producing writers, and Ryan Condell, who's my co-showrunner, the journey that I wanted them to make, like they stopped speaking when they walked out the door and only started speaking again when they reached Alison's room. And it was like, there's another two and a half minutes. What are you going to do?

initially there was this kind of reluctance to write something. Why are we writing something that seems like, you know, that's fat that we're putting on the script. I was like, trust me, like we need to, we, we need them to talk about nothing. We need to see what happens when they relate to each other. And it's not about succession and it's not about something specific. And they were still kind of wondering. And I was like, those stairs, they're massive. She just had a baby fucking nightmares have to walk up those stairs. And that's what,

came out was this great thing of going up the stairs and then caswell stopping them in the middle and it's like there's nothing worse than like i desperately need to go to the loo and there's this guy saying oh you know congratulations let's do small chit chat and i think all of those little moments really that for me at least by the end of it i was i was engaged so we have had both emily and millie on the show they played young alicent and young rainiera and

And they both said that they did not talk at all to the actors who played the older counterparts of their characters. Was that, did you ordain that to be the case? If I remember correctly, I think it, there, it's a gigantic show. There's an enormous amount of stuff going on. Surprisingly, because it's various different timelines, there's no reason for them to ever be on set together, ever. Yeah.

So suddenly the opportunity to spend time together has to be something that you do because you choose to and you do it in your own time. And everybody's focused and tired. And I think it must be quite nerve wracking, the idea of going to meet somebody who's playing the same character as you. And like, how do you feel about that? Like,

Really? I don't know. So maybe they didn't feel like doing it. Maybe they did. Maybe I told them not to. I honestly don't know. They didn't accuse you of anything. No, no, no. They weren't like complaining about it. I think it's fascinating. I read about it today, I think. And I was trying to think, did I say that? I definitely know that we had talked about having...

character traits physical character traits and characteristics of which the only one that remains is the biting of the nails that's the only one that's left but when we started there were multiple different ideas and as we got further into it it became apparent that it wasn't necessarily the right way to go because it

It was a good start, but it ultimately became a contrivance. And so it's very possible that we started with all these ideas and then gradually backed off of them. But each actor, once we had cast them, Ryan and I would invite them over to my house and we'd spend about three or four hours and just talk just about the character, history, past, ideas. It was really important for us to...

make each actor feel the possibilities. We weren't putting limits on them. We wanted to know what they thought. And I think that many things I'm sure were talked about in those meetings that I don't remember, but it was always that thing of like wanting, what you want is you want an actor to take the character that you have written or invented or created and roll with it and then come up with stuff that you didn't even know the character needed to do. And, and, and then I think you're, you're in business.

Part of the real surprise and shock and delight of this episode is figuring out where these characters are in relation to each other. Now, all of a sudden you feel this real connection.

Except for marrying her dad.

except for that, which you could say, you could argue she didn't have much of a choice in that. Well, and supporting Rhaenyra's heir still after marrying her dad is like, seems pretty generous, you know? If I married my mate's mom, I would probably support them in anything they wanted. I'm glad you've put yourself in those shoes. I think that's really important. How do you guide the actors through that, through this 10 years of backstory that we're not going to see, but that we need to feel?

I believe that we didn't discuss events, but we probably discussed emotional journeys for those characters. Because in a way, what happens at the end of episode five, which is a betrayal, it's probably one of my favorite moments of both Emily and Millie's performances in the show is when

Emily is turned away and Millie is looking at her, standing behind and looking at her. And she comes to the point of lying. She knows she has to go this one step further and really explain explicitly what happened. And she starts lying. And, you know, it's like once the,

dam breaks, it's a flood. And you've seen her be this person struggling with wanting to stand by her values and suddenly she's no longer doing that. And it's not as hard as she thought it was going to be. I just, maybe I'm projecting this, but I see all these things in her face when I watch her doing that scene. And I feel like it's such a traumatic event between the two of them. And then the subsequent realization that in fact,

that on Alison's part, when Chris and Cole admit he'd had sex with the wrong person, basically, or that he was the wrong person to have sex with, I'm not sure which, I feel like that's almost enough to last 10 years. Because you don't escape it, you don't get past it. If you look at the way that Alison and Rhaenyra's relationship develops in the first five episodes and first four or five years of their time that we spend with them, they are good friends with this potential romantic entanglement from earlier on that has always been a big thing

for me that I thought was an essential component of why they are such close friends. It seems like it's a kind of unrequited love. It's not something that Alison chose to encourage,

Did they ever have a thing? Don't know, but there's something there, right? And Rhaenyra has this deep longing for her best friend. It's like we talked about it sometimes. It was about that kind of that first crush, the crush that you have on your best friend as a girl that you can't change. And then as a boy, you have it, but it's almost like even more pushed down. It's even less allowed, less acceptable.

and how you get past, you know, sleeping with your father. You get past antagonism, someone moving on in life, another person not. You get past feeling like you're stuck and seeing things

Becoming jealous of your friend's experience, even though it's not one that you'd want to have. All those things, you see them find their way through the maze that is growing up as a teenage girl. And then they hit the brick wall when trust is destroyed between them. And I just don't think their relationship evolves anymore. I think it's stuck. They're still children. Yeah.

And actually, if you riff on that a bit further, I had a very, very, very good experience with the actors on Game of Thrones. And a lot of it was to do with just the camaraderie between them and making a unit. And so...

that was something that we endeavored to do on this show. And one thing that happened is I became quickly aware that living in London, which is not being in Belfast, so it means you're not in an away location, you're not on holiday with nothing else to do, you've got your lives. And so it's harder to make that happen. So I was like, we need to create shared memories.

So I, Camilla Napruce, who's the devil's horseman, who does all the horses on the old thrones on House of the Dragon. I called her up and I said, can they come and do a riding lesson? And can you like put

put them through it a little bit. And she said, sure. And so I told Olivia and Emma, go do, go do some riding lessons. It helps you to learn how to ride dragons. And so they went and they did this riding lesson and it was probably, I think the singularly best thing I ever saw them do together. And they videoed, they sent me videos of Olivia trying to get on the horse and like a lot of laughing.

But what it did is it created this bond and that bond has stayed. And so suddenly they are in real life very, very close and have this very strong bond, even if they don't see each other for a long period of time. And it allowed them to create a safe space so that they could be absolutely horrific to each other on screen. Wow.

It never felt dangerous. It always felt they categorically knew where the lines were and they pushed it. And, you know, as a result, I think you'll see the show benefits. That's amazing. Yeah.

So I would love to go back to talking about childbirth a little bit just because there are two pretty significant scenes in this episode. And obviously it's a huge theme throughout this season too. I mean, I think we hear the echo of Emma's words from episode one where she says the childbed is our battlefield. I think there's an inherent violence to each of these scenes in very different ways. I'm especially fascinated because I thought...

The scene with Lena, especially after having talked about how she wants to die a dragon rider's death. I mean, so much of that scene really mirrors what happened to Emma, but obviously has the same outcome, but in such a different way. She has a choice. She has agency. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about how that evolved? I mean, the...

The notion of the child bed is our battlefield is in making a show that has historically been from a male perspective and wanting to shift. And listen, I'm a guy, I'm not a woman, so I can only do what I can do. And I know I understand my limitations, but I... I appreciate you saying that. But just because I'm a guy doesn't mean that I can't be interested and want to be part of...

Trying to get something out there that feels like it's not getting out there as much as it should at this point in the evolution of our society Absolutely

We knew going into this show that sex and violence was going to be an issue and that the world is changing and what was acceptable isn't acceptable before, is not acceptable now. We needed to find a parallel and it seemed fairly obvious that women give birth, they can do that, men can't, right? So, and it's, so it's part of the cycle of life. And so in theory, this is going to happen to every woman in this story, which means they are going to be at danger.

It's probably not dissimilar to a man at some point being in a dangerous situation where they have to fight for their lives in that era. I'm hugely generalizing here, but I'm just trying to kind of find the parallel. And so the opportunity was to depict that.

and find a place for sex and violence in a context that felt like it was both relatable but also a different perspective on these two subject matters because they're very correlated they're very connected and at the same time sex doesn't need to be just sex it can be sex produces children right and so therefore it's part of the same i think it's part of the same conversation so

We were looking for a way in which we could show that there were various opportunities because it was a generational drama to have people

Mm.

because we don't want to see it right and so suddenly i was like okay well this is interesting so and as you explored it further it became apparent that if we were going to have multiple different births and we needed them from story purposes but also from a character perspective they're hugely traumatic events so therefore another reason to you know get in there and look at this and then it became the thing of okay and then how are we making the world a better place if we show births

what we bring to the table. And that's, I think, where both the parallel from the female perspective that it is the battleground came about, but also the thematics of we need each birth to be different because if they're the same thing, then that's all we're doing is repeating ourselves. The first one's interesting, everything else becomes boring. And therefore, as you rightly point out,

Lena's birth is different to Emma's birth in that Lena has agency. She has a choice. She makes a choice. We actually had named that thematically impasse. There was insurmountable obstacles. She could not pass it and she had to make a choice, but it was hers. Emma's birth was torture, which very much is what people took away from it. And there was a lot of discussion about

The images we were using, it's interesting that if you actually were to dissect that scene, there's only one incision. There's very little gory violence. Well, you don't need it because it's still horrific. Exactly. Just holding her down and her screaming and her performance. Sean Phillips is absolutely amazing. And then the second birth, which is Rhaenyra's episode six opening scene.

we call the agony and the ecstasy because we wanted to make sure that there was an understanding that it's birth isn't just a horrific experience. It's multifaceted. It's the endorphins that released after giving birth are strong enough that you forget that you, you know, squeezed an infant out of you. Like you made a human being. It's like, it's crazy. That's why we did it all on their face. We were very, it was very important for us at that point to,

we were introducing a character, what better way to introduce a character than at their most kind of traumatic moment. And also to see what that character is made of, because especially when Rhaenyra, you know, gives birth, gets the baby, who's the most incredible child actor I've ever worked with in my life, only three weeks old, God knows, I was just like, blew my mind.

That kid blew my mind. High praise to the child. That's great. Oh, my God. It was just insane. Anyway, so Rhaenyra gives birth and then she's immediately faced with a challenge, which is her relationship with Alicent. It's the functionality of giving birth that you're producing heirs, that they need to be checked, et cetera, et cetera. And then there's one more, which I'm not going to spoil your experience. Oh, dear.

In his narration at the end of the episode, Laris calls children a weakness. And that's certainly one philosophy on parenting. And we see, you know, we see some various ones over the course of this episode and some ones that are very new to us with Alicent and Rhaenyra. And, you know, even Ser Harwin. I wonder if you might talk to us about how Daemon...

how Viserys, how Alicent, how they view their responsibility as parents. To me, what seems interesting of the question that you're posing is at its core, this story seems to be both generational and it's about what we do to our kids, right? Because...

As a result of these tiny events that get bigger and larger and ripple out into time, we end up with this war that everybody knows is coming. I mean, even I know it's coming. So you know this is the Titanic. You know it's going to sink. The question is, is like, how's it going to happen? And it's going to happen because of the way that we bring our kids up. These people will be passing on all of their knowledge

shit to their kids and it's the philip larking poem they fuck you up your mom and dad they don't mean to but they do they fill you with the fears they've had and save a little just for you but they in turn were fucked up anyway you basically it's awesome if you if you've never read it it's a wonderful poem the point is is we can't help ourselves that's what we do we fuck our kids up i mean and i've i've got a daughter who's the best thing i've

like ever done by a long shot perfect she is bananas as she calls she's cuckoo bananas um but the thing is is i know no what no matter what i try to do to make amends for the things that my parents did to me or the ways the mistakes that they made i will in turn fuck my kid up because that's what we do and hopefully my kid will at some point forgive me for it but to think that i'll get

past this scot-free is not true. I don't think it's realistic in a way. We need, as our learning experience as human beings, we have to have that kind of trauma. It's a thing we have to go through and overcome. We have to stand on the shoulders of our forefathers. So we've got this story here that is at its very core, super, super simplistic. It's just about

you know, what we do to our children. Unfortunately, there's also a thing called society and monarchies. I was going to say, especially in a super fucked up system, you know. And all that shit. Yeah. That tends to get in the way. So if it was difficult when you were just you and your kid, now suddenly it's about the impact of those choices that you made, how you fuck your kids up, turns them into...

terrible leaders or amazing ones and they impact every single other member of that society and i think that's fascinating and different characters carry the weight of that knowledge in different ways damon could care less he doesn't care he doesn't he just wants to be close to his brother he doesn't give a shit about the throne

Viserys, it's all he can think about. Will I be remembered as a good king? Will I be remembered as just this guy who just kept things going in peacetime? Rhaenyra feels the enormity of her responsibility. My dad will only love me if I can be the ruler he wants me to be or he thinks I can be.

For Alison, it's all about duty. So I think I really do believe genuinely that they all have very, very different perspectives on their responsibility to their children and this notion of what childbirth actually means.

Yeah.

For one year, and I was going to be their surrogate father, where they would basically, some of them had not acted before, some of them were also cuckoo bananas, some of them were fantastic. They were all different kinds of children. But for one year, they had to fight each other, they had to care about each other, they had to hate each other, they had to know their lines, they had to spend days on end doing the same bloody scene.

And somewhere in that I had to do that at the same time as run the whole show. And I just showed them six and seven last weekend. And it was quite it was like a nice end to the story. You have announced that you're going to be stepping away from the show after this season. Curious if there's anything you can tell us about what your next creative challenge is going to be. And what are you most proud of?

Right now, I would say getting to the end and still being alive. Yeah, that's a good one. I'm feeling quite good about that one. Yeah. How do you come up with something that basically people are going to go, I didn't hate it? Because in essence, I think, especially when we first got towards the point of showing the first episode, all I could feel is people would watch it and they would say to me,

You know what I felt, Miguel, when I saw that? And you're like, oh God, what's it they're going to say? And they go, relief. And you're like...

Okay, that's good. That's great. I can work with that. Yeah, but eventually you realize like that is, it's a show, it's an idea that is very dear to a lot of people's hearts, took them through a long period of time. They love to hate it. They love to love it. They have strong feelings about all sorts of characters and themes. And, you know, even if they just enjoyed watching it, they really enjoyed watching it. And so who the fuck are you to come along and like...

And say, I'm going to make it and call it something different. And I'm going to make choices you may not agree with, et cetera, et cetera. And so to be here now, and I think I feel a bit more confident because we're in, you know, we just did episode four was just screen and, and,

To feel like, yeah, consistently it seems to be getting a positive response. So I'm feeling less like it's a, the bubble's about to burst and more like, okay, I think we did something right. I think we were very, very, very cautious and aware of the fact that we were doing something that people had a strong feeling about. But we also didn't sit there worrying too much about that. But we went out to make the best show we could. So I'm proud of the fact that I didn't fuck it up.

Well, yeah, it seems like you're leaving it in a good place, which is great. Best time to leave. And what's next? Holiday. Yeah, that sounds great. That sounds really good. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Well earned. Well, Miguel, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for spending time with us. Yeah, thank you. My pleasure. Very nice to speak to you.

Always just so fascinating to see how much really deep, you know, emotional and philosophical exploring goes into creating this. Yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed that conversation from the storytelling point of view and especially from, you know, the idea of

trying to figure out how to navigate patriarchy in this really complicated time. I thought he just had some really thoughtful and nuanced answers that I really appreciated hearing for sure. But that is all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night when we discuss House of the Dragon Episode 7 with Olivia Cooke, who plays Alicent. If you can't get enough House of the Dragon conversation, you should check out the House of the Dragon subreddit where...

There are fun conversations going on, some fun theorizing, just takes about which character is bad and which one is good. Check it out. Really fun conversations going on there. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at GameOfThrones.

N-E-T-W-3-R-K. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.