House of the Dragon: Ep. 8 “The Lord of the Tides”
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The thing about this scene is, I mean, we have been tiptoeing around these words for 10 years now, and here it is. It's out in the open, and what happens? It's been a lot of winking and nodding and, you know, flexing the bicep and pointing to it. Yeah.

But here goes Vaibhund, and he's just going to come right out and say it. And, you know, props to him. For speaking the truth. Also ripped to him. Whoops.

Yeah, that was that was like classic Thrones right there. It's like, you know what happens when you yell whore? Someone's going to cut your head off. Absolutely. And shouts to the silent sisters doing a great job preserving the top half of the head for the funereal rights. A thankless job. The Lord's work. Truly. It really is.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I am Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragons.

Must be tough having dinner right after seeing someone get half of their head cut off. You don't think that would make you hungry? Is that what you're saying? I think it would spoil my appetite a little bit. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's a fair point. That's a fair point. This is a hell of an app, Jason, I got to say. I mean, it's interesting thinking of it in terms of like the arc of the 10 episodes, because in a lot of ways, not a whole lot of stuff happened, but enough really big stuff happened that I'm excited to talk to you about this one. Oh,

Oh, same. Legitimately had chills when the doors to the throne room swing open. Oh my god. King Viserys of House Targaryen, lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the realm. And Viserys with the last dregs of his strength.

tottering into the hall. Tottering, that's good. I wrote stumbling. I was trying to think of the best verb to describe like the deep, inherent spiritual and physical struggle that that man went through to get from one side of the throne room to the other. I mean, it was really something. And, you know, again and then again at the dinner with the last bits of his body

emotional energy, just trying with everything he has left to knit the realm together and hold it together from tearing apart. And it's tragic to know that he probably did not succeed. I mean, he did his best. I think he tried. He kept trying, but yeah, I don't think it did what it needed to do. Well, Greta, do you want to take us through the recap? Yes, I would love to...

We are in episode eight. Six years have passed. Corlys Velaryon the Sea Snake is seriously injured in battle, which means Corlys' brother Vaemund is real fired up about who's going to take Driftmark if he dies. Tensions with the Triarchy are heating up and Vaemund is worried about who will be in charge of the fleet. He also thinks his blood claim is better than Rhaenyra's bastard kid, which, you know, isn't wrong. Alleged. We can put alleged in here if you want.

Everybody heads to King's Landing for a hearing, which seems pretty stacked against Team Black until Viserys stumbles into the throne room to chime in. Family rifts are definitely getting bigger in this episode. Other quick updates, Helena and Aegon are married. Aegon is a sexual predator. There's another kid named Aegon. More cousins are betrothed. Daemon got three dragon eggs and...

it seems that King Viserys has finally left this mortal coil. So Jason, you thought of a good theme for this week's ep. What are we working with today?

It's the last gasp, the last gasp for peace, the last breath exhaling from King Viserys's beleaguered lungs and body. Good Lord. Yeah. It felt like the slimmest of windows for peace to be sealed and to bind up the wounds that have bedeviled the realm. And it...

Almost worked. It really almost worked. I mean, there was real warmth around that table. People were laughing. People were smiling. Otto Hightower was giving little claps. There was a dance. Yes, it was Jace dancing with Helena in order to spite Egon. But it was wonderful anyway. Yeah.

I do think there was one sliver in there that was really interesting, though, which was between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Because it did, those two gave beautiful speeches. I wish to raise my cup to Her Grace the Queen. Your graciousness moves me deeply, Princess. We have more in common than we sometimes allow. I raise my cup to you and to your house. You will make a fine queen.

They were very heartfelt. They both really seemed to honor each other and where the other person was coming from in a very kind of like restorative justice sort of way. And even at the end of that scene when Rhaenyra's like, listen, I gotta go, but I'll come back. I'll come back on my dragon. We can hang. Yeah.

I thought partly it was so interesting because, I don't know, I'm curious to see what's next for them in their relationship, but it also seemed so clear to me that the story is so much bigger than them at this point. You know what I mean? I completely agree. And first of all, incredible courage from Rhaenyra. Like, really...

heart-wrenching courage to stand up and give that really emotional, deeply touching toast to her once friend. Yeah. But I found myself wondering, I found it sincere as well. But there was that moment with Rhaenyra and Rhaenys in the Godswood. Back Luke's claim and let us betroth Lena's children to mine.

And Rainy says, it's a great deal, but is it desperate? I wonder. And Rhaenyra says, what does it matter? Yeah. And I wonder what your take is. It was sincere, yes, her toast to Alicent. But was some of it born of... Desperation? I've just got to take this half-court heave right now. Ah.

You know, it's a great question because I think you could have asked the same question around Rhaenyra and Daemon getting married, right? It seems to me like it's coming from a very similar place. I read it as having an emotional truth that makes sense for me. It doesn't feel out of character or dishonest.

But it does seem like it could be playing multiple advantages for her. You know, like she has to do what she can. Right. Yeah. Another thing that really resonated with me was, first of all, the fact that that speech had a chance with Allison. Her heart was open for that. There were signals that this was the case as soon as Damon and Renier arrived. Yes, they got the cold shoulder shot.

No one was there to meet them at the gate except for Lord Caswell. But there's all these seven-pointed stars, the Faith of the Seven symbology all around. And, you know, we remember that early scene from the Sept where Alicent reached out to Rhaenyra and said, you should try and mourn your mother. This helped me.

And it's clear to me that she's really rediscovered her faith because of the guilt of what she's done and what she may have to do. She's wearing the seven-pointed star medallion. And it felt like her faith has...

in some way opened her heart more. That's how I took it because it felt like she, despite the fact that we saw her rush across the room to try and cut Luke's eye out, you know, six years down the line, she has really pulled back from that kind of energy. And she feels like,

quite burdened by sadness. You could see it. I mean, you know, Otto says at one point, you got to steal yourself. You got to get your nerve up for what we have to do. Yeah. It's interesting to hear you mention her running across the room because for us, that was only last episode. I do think this six year jump between these episodes was the most jarring for me. I'm curious if it read differently for you, especially, you know, just as the book reader who has a little more context. Yeah.

But, you know, we've got new kids. I mean, like, new actors portraying kids and then literal also new children. There's just a lot going on. And I can't help but wonder also, I mean, we got some little pieces about what's happened over the last six years, but we got a lot less context than we did in our tenure jump, I think. Yeah.

It was a lot. I want to help some of our listeners out also by pointing out that. So in addition to new actors playing characters we've seen, there's a bunch of new characters, including Lord Jasper Wilde, the Iron Rod, who is the new master of laws. And OK, so when Queen Alison is coming from the small council meeting, a knight of the Kingsguard comes up and brings a message.

about an issue with Prince Aegon. And Alison is like, Sir Eric, I don't have time for this. And he's like, actually, it's Sir Arik. Okay. That is Sir Arik Cargill. I feel like this is such a, like, New York, New Jersey pronunciation. It's like the Mary, Mary, Mary, whatever thing, where it's like, I don't hear the difference. It's with an A. So Eric with an A. Arik. And his...

twin brother, identical twin brother is named Eric Cargill, also of the Kingsguard, which means Sir Eric and Sir Eric are now our second set of twins on this show in addition to...

And Thailand and Jason Lannister, Thailand being the master of ships. And he is currently he was in this episode as well. So just to help people, you know, get their bearings in this. There are now two sets of twins. Is that going to be the comedic relief we need in this show? Is that going to provide it for us? You know, in the books, the historians, fictional historians stress that they were completely physically identical to the point that.

And of course, they're both wearing the same uniform to the point that everyone around them was constantly mistaken in terms of who they were talking to. They did not know who was who. Is it possible there's actually just one of them and he's playing a big trick on everybody and his name is Oryk? What if there's actually a third brother and he's just not and he subs in for one of them? Yeah.

No, that's not the case. There's definitely two of them. There's definitely two. And I'll leave it at that. Okay, fine. Okay, okay. So what did you think of the time jump, though?

Yeah, I mean, it's a lot to take in. And it is absolutely jaw dropping to realize that we have spanned almost 30 years in the course of this show. It's crazy. Rhaenyra is now 33, 34, 35 years old with six kids. You know, that is amazing. Jace is a young man. Aegon is married with kids of his own, which we hear them mention that Helena and he have kids.

It was a lot. It's a lot to take in and it's a lot to kind of process, gosh, where are we? Not to mention the fact that it's been six years, at least, six years since Rhaenys saw Corlys, but it feels like it's been 600 years for King Viserys, who is like three quarters decayed. Oh my God, just sloughing off of his body. The fact that he and Daemon are...

in terms of the books, only four years apart is shocking stuff. He did not look good. Was there anything in particular that bumped you in terms of this time jump? About the six years? I don't know. I think in some ways it's tricky for me to believe that Rhaenyra would have stayed away for six years, especially given how unwell Viserys was in the last episode. And I know...

all those relationships were super rocky, but I don't know, it just seemed they've always had such a strong bond that it's just kind of difficult for me to imagine her peacing out to that extent, you know? Let me ask you this. We meet back up with Misaria in this episode, and she has the queen's handmaiden in her employ who is delivering messages to her about the goings-on in the castle. Mm-hmm.

and we don't know who Misaria is working for. I guess we should consider the possibility that she is working for Damon and has been delivering news of the capital, of the goings-on in the Red Keep to Damon and Rhaenyra over these years. It's possible. It's possible, but even if you're getting intel about your sick dad, at what point do you think I should really show up and spend some time with my sick dad? You know, I mean, obviously...

He is not doing well and hasn't been for quite some time. You know, I mean, we can this has been a six year decline. Essentially, we could gather, you know. Yeah. And as we talked about last week, his death is the starter's pistol that all these competitors are waiting for. And you definitely want to be in the Capitol. Right. When that happens, when he passes, because he's.

I don't know, but you get the picture that the rules are not going to be strictly abided by. I was really sure. So one of our other new characters is Jasper Wilde, the master of laws. And we meet him at the small council meeting and you get, I think, a good snippet that tells you a lot about his character when he says, well, actually, Corliss never officially named Laenor his heir. The paperwork was actually not filed. If you check it.

He didn't actually file that stuff or the date, you know, like... Yeah, he didn't sign it. He is very much looking for these kind of like legal loopholes in order to get what his side wants accomplished. So you get the picture that the Greens are not going to abide by the letter of the law when it comes to this succession. And I'm sure that Raniera's side wouldn't either. Well, and you see that even in that hearing before Viserys shows up, right? I mean...

They're sitting in the throne, pretty much. Otto was extremely comfortable. Exactly. And Alison basically flaunted it in their face when she has that meeting with Rhaenyra and Daemon. The emblems of the Seven serve only to guide us on an uncertain path, to remind us of a higher authority. And on the morrow, which authority will sit in judgment of my son's claim on his own inheritance? That would be mine.

And the hands. But be assured, the father is just and commands me to forget the accusations you have held in this room today. Oh, me and Otto. Like, it's good. Yeah, and the gods. The gods will. Yeah, just have faith. Yeah, don't worry about it. It'll be good. Yeah. Like, you know, we'll forgive you for everything that you've said. The gods will forgive and you'll get a fair hearing. And clearly untrue. And everybody knows it.

Right. Yeah. So here's a question for you. I mean, Alicent is at the small council meeting making calls. It's pretty clear that Viserys hasn't made it to one of those meetings in quite some time. He is addled, whether it's, you know, from milk of the poppy or just the pain he's in if he's not drugged. So to that end, could you not argue that the realm has had a queen?

I think you could argue that. And I think Rhaenyra tries to. She says... Yeah, you've been running the show here, obviously. And then Alicent tries to argue quite strongly. No, as you well know, I'm just keeping it warm. I'm just standing in. For Prince Aegon and who... I mean, excuse me, for yourself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So I think you could argue that. But again, I think this is one of those blind spots that the realm has. There are times when they are comfortable with a woman in the lead, and that is when they are sure that it is temporary. Sure. Yeah. Back to the beginning of that scene when Allison comes in to greet Rhaenyra and Prince Daemon, and Rhaenyra has her arm down. Yes. With the scar showing, and then she covers it up in an attempt to like,

bury the past, essentially, like, let's move past that if there is any chance to move past that. That really stood out to me as something that really interesting, an awareness on her part of what they've done to each other. That's interesting because you could almost read it the other way, where by kind of moving her arm and hiding it the way she did, she's actually calling attention to it that she might not have if she had just kind of left it out in the open and ignored it because it's irrelevant. Yeah.

Yeah, I could see it that way as well. That was a hell of a moment, though, for sure. Yeah, the dynamic between those two in this episode. Again, it feels like if you could just get Otto and the rest out of here...

Even Damon, for the love of their kids, I think that they could figure it out because they must know that if it does come to war, there's no way that either side emerges from this unscathed. Like no one's getting away with this with all of their beloved ones intact and whole and healthy. Yeah, it's all just so complicated at this point. I think you're totally right. I think this episode did a really nice job of showing that

In spite of everything that has happened to these two, they do still have some genuine affection for each other. And there could be room to reconcile, except that there's just so much more generational trauma on top of those two now that it's impossible. I guess we have to talk about Prince Aegon, who is a piece of shit.

Just the worst. So, yeah, did you end up with any compassion for him when he did his like, well, it's just really hard out here? That was actually infuriating. Thank you. I appreciate that.

He's like, I try really hard. Yeah, and I'm trying to live up to what you and father want, but I can't do it. What, not raping? Like, that's the bar is stop assaulting people. Don't do that. Yeah. And now you're asking for pity. Yeah, I absolutely fail to have any empathy for this guy. Yeah. And when Helena says...

At the dinner. So terrible. It isn't so bad. Mostly he just ignores you. Except sometimes when he's drunk.

That moment really grossed me. I'm just like, ah, ha, ha. Yeah, let's just laugh this off. It was like, that was horrifying, folks. That's gross. That was horrible. Yeah, I agree. It is interesting how much, well, I shouldn't say more menacing, but how deeply menacing Amon is turning out to be, too. Oh, yeah. That eye patch is really something. There are some real gunslinger at high noon. Ha ha!

stares between him and Damon all throughout this episode. You know, when Damon slices poor Vaman's head off, it's incredible to watch the reactions, right? And Alicent is shocked. Helena claps her hands over her ears in terror. Aegon is just like, whoa. And Amon's

doesn't even blink. He just looks at Damon like you and I are going to meet at some point. It's like his little antenna come up. He's like,

And that happens again and again over the course of the episode when Damon finally settles Jason Luke down after Amon's wonderfully delivered toast, actually. Such strong boys. Did you catch the thing that set him off there? You know, I didn't. I thought he was just being a chaotic asshole. So it was a callback to the prank episode.

instigated by Aegon, we must remember this, from years ago back in the dragon pit where they gave him his dragon and it was a little pig. It was a pig. It was the pink dread. And Luke is looking, Luke who by the way cut out his eye. You know, if I

Luke, I show a little more contrition than this, but Luke is staring at him across this pig as this pig is being delivered on the table right in front of- That is a move. And he's kind of like snickering like, let me see, remember when we did that with the pig? And then-

That's what gets Amon riled up. You can also sense, I think, that Amon was spoiling for a fight. Oh, he was ready for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think anything probably could have set him off. I could see that that would be a good one, though. I mean, this is why you never bully people, you know? Don't bully. Yeah, because they're going to come back with one eye and they're going to be

They're going to be really, really mad. Both of those boys, Aegon and Amund, I don't like either of them. I thought it was fascinating that Alicent essentially disowns Aegon when she confronts him about raping the servant girl. I also thought that storyline was really interesting because I do think there's another version of this show where we would have seen that.

That rape scene would have been portrayed. Agreed. I think we were completely capable of recognizing the trauma that girl went through without it, which is, you know, credit to the script and the acting and all of it. Agreed. What did you think of Allison's reaction? I thought it was really interesting because she did seem compassionate. To a point. But, I mean, that was also a pretty heartless reaction, really. It's like, I know you weren't asking for it, but...

If anyone else were to hear about this... I haven't told anyone. You told Sir Eric and Talia and now me. And though I believe you are not to blame, others might not be so trusting.

I guess we would say of her today, she was a woman of her times or something to that extent. You know, she has empathy for that girl, clearly. But to a point, she essentially says, well, what are you going to do? It's his word against yours. Here's some money. Yeah, I think that's probably what's so interesting about it, I thought, was that, I mean, here she is. She's in such an incredible position of power, right? But there's still only so much she can actually do about any of these systems. Yeah.

It's always such an interesting argument, isn't it? Like, you're incredibly powerful, and yet we keep finding the limits of the power, don't we? Yeah. When it's convenient, you know? Yeah. And I think that definitely is the case. It's very clear from the way this is handled and the way that she addresses Aegon. This is not the first such incident. Mm-mm. And...

I would imagine that her rededication to faith is in part some kind of plea or attempt to process and deal with all of this. Amends. Because let's remember, the realm almost en masse earlier in the season had written off Daemon Targaryen as heir because...

He was a terrible bad guy, too chaotic, etc. And here is the person that the high towers, that the greens, that Queen Alice and her father and their supporters want to be on the throne. And folks, I got to tell you, he's a piece of shit. And I don't think that he will be an effective king. And I think I'm understating that. Yeah. Well, and now we have two Agons.

Aegons. Aegon. The older and the younger. So that's just a thing because Targaryens just only have so many vowels and consonants that they're willing to work with? Well, I mean, it's such an important signifier of authority. And in the books, Alicent makes a much bigger deal of it. I would be pissed if I were Alicent. She's actually pissed. She's like, let me get this straight. Yeah. Are you kidding? Hold on. Let me get this straight. You named your fourth child the same name as my son. No. What are you doing? Don't do that.

So, here's a question for you. We sort of touched on this with the conversation between Rhaenyra and Rhaenys, and Rhaenys kind of calls Rhaenyra out for being desperate. It feels to me very much in this episode like Rhaenyra is the underdog. You know, she and Daemon are showing up after a long time. They're noticing all these differences. Viserys, you know, they're stressed out that Viserys is sick, but they're also, you know, facing this...

potentially like a huge shift for them and for their family and for what it means for them. I found that really interesting because on one hand, I wanted to be compassionate to her as the underdog, but it was also sort of like, but girl, like...

you made a bunch of weird choices that led us to this position, you know? I had the same reaction, you know, when she has that stirring speech in the middle of a rainstorm. You told me it was our duty to hold the realm united against a common foe. If you wish me to bear it, then defend me and my children.

That talk needed to happen 20 fucking years ago. I found myself thinking, listen, I am not a despot. I believe in democracy. I am a kind ruler. I believe in the rule of law. Cool. But one cannot escape the inkling that had Viserys steeled himself into

to tear the tongues out of a few people over the years. Maybe 20,000 or 30,000 or however many soldiers that are potentially going to die in this coming war would have lived to till their fields in happiness and peace. A couple of beheadings and maybe we avoid all this. Yeah, it was just especially fascinating, I think, in this episode just to see how, you know, frustrated and desperate she was and how complacent

compassionate I felt for her, but then also was like, wait, but, you know, I don't know. I guess to a certain extent she had to produce an heir and so maybe that is exactly what needed to happen. It was just like, this has all been very messy. In fairness to her, and I wonder what you think about this, you know, she was thrown into the very, very deep end of the pool. You know, like the deep end of the ocean at

tender age. Absolutely. With essentially no help. Her one natural ally, besides her father, who was absentee for most of the time, and certainly after he married Alicent, was Daemon. And Daemon fled to a completely other continent for a number of years. So you rue the squandered chances, both from Rhaenyra and Viserys, to back up the thing that they had decided to do. Mm-hmm.

But also, for me, the blame lays almost solely with Viserys. Yeah. To Rhaenyra's point, you made this choice that divided the realm. Yeah. And then you didn't back it up. You needed to do the work to shore it up. Yeah. Over the years. Not this last speech on death's door. Right. This last Hail Mary to avert war. You need to be doing the work over the years again.

before now. Yeah. You know, because Rhaenyra was too young to really understand what was going on. No, you're right. And I think, you know, the fact that you called it too little too late earlier is right on. I did think the hearing itself was fascinating to see Viserys come in, to see, I mean, just how horrific it was, the amount of energy it took him to get to the throne was... I mean, it was shocking. And we've been seeing his decline for a long time. But I did think...

the way he handled that room, the way he called on Rainice to say, you know, no one's asking her what her opinion is. I do think it reinforced the idea that as imperfect as he was, I do think he was always trying to do the right thing. Yeah. And I think that it's an interesting paradox of power that often people won't tell you the truth about what the right thing is when you are that person of power because they're scared or they want to ingratiate themselves. And I think that's

with Otto Hightower as his hand for a lot of the time, the king was not getting that advice. But that scene, the way everyone reacted to him, the way that Otto stands up from the throne as if he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, you know? It's like a

Like, oh, shit, was amazing. And Veiman, too, like, oh, no, I thought we had this sewn up and now everything is thrown into chaos. Yeah. And then also just the moments that really just stabbed you in the heart the way.

Raniera looks at him like, I can't believe my dad showed up. After all this time, I can't believe he answered the call that I put out. This plea from my soul. He is speeding his way to the grave in order to do it. And then the way Damon, I mean, the reach out from Damon is amazing. After he brushes away Sir Arik, or Eric. Right.

Or Orrick. After either Sir Eric or Eric or Orrick comes over to help him. And then he's like, yeah, I can do it. I can do it. And then they go to the shot from behind where you see the steps and the blades. And what if he totters over and stabs himself on one of these swords? And then here comes Damon to pick up the crown and help him up to the throne. That got me. That was an amazing moment. That was a hell of a moment. I mean, that whole scene, for so many reasons, I just thought was...

Really powerful. I did think, I mean, the doubling down of Vaemond to be like, not only am I questioning, I'm going to yell, bastards, and then whore, just to see what happens, was almost comical to me. I think it was also...

This is the fruit, I think, of Viserys' past weakness. Oh, absolutely. People have pushed it with him in the past. Criston Cole talked back to him. There's any number of examples over the course of the series. And...

Remember in episode one, when Bormund Baratheon is kind of like being cute about Rhaenys and the Queen that Never Was, and Otto's like, you could have his tongue out. Yeah. I'm not saying the Viserys should have had Bormund's tongue out, but I think he could have dropped the hammer like he did with Vaemond a little earlier. Because man, when he stands up with the, pulls the dagger out, it's like, oh, whoa, he still got it in him. Well, and it's also fascinating that he didn't actually do anything to Vaemond. Right.

I mean, Daemon couldn't wait. Daemon came through on that. He couldn't wait. But I mean, you know, I wonder, it kind of reminds me of that scene, the hunting episode with the heart where he needed all that help, you know? I think it does also just kind of speak to Viserys and his inability to be brutal in a way that could have very much been to both his and Rhaenyra's advantage, you know? I mean, it's clear, first of all, that the thing that Rhaenyra and Daemon were concerned about, Vaemon and Otto...

allies, natural allies, considering that the end goal that they both wanted to achieve, Vaman to get Driftmark and Otto just to put his kids on the throne, his grandchildren on the throne, his blood on the throne.

Do you think Vaiman really thought that the king was just going to go, oh, you know what? You yelled bastard and whore. And now I think you're right. Yeah. No one ever mentioned that before. Yeah. I've never heard that one before. Yeah. It's never been put quite that way. And I think you got it. Yeah. You know what? Actually, you're right. Yeah.

What do you think his endgame there was? I think he knew he was losing, don't you? I mean, I think he knew he just didn't have a shot. I do think what was interesting about his case in the first place was that, and I wonder if it would have been more to his advantage to make less about the blood claim and more about the strategic importance of having someone who knows how to command a fleet in that role, given how much unrest is taking place right now. Yeah, I mean, that's the argument that

Thailand Lannister. Yeah. Master of ships kind of makes when he, right. It's interesting that also that's job security for him. Like he is master of ships and he's like, well, hold on. Do we want a kid? Uh,

But I mean, the point of like, you know, kid knows dragons, kid doesn't know ships. It's not an invalid argument. Listen, I think that that is certainly an argument. That said, the thing that everyone is glossing over and that even the king is like confused about it is like Corlys is alive. Like, yes, he may die. They make it seem like his odds are terrible. I think we're definitely going to see Corlys again. I think that would be shocking if he didn't show up.

And I got to say, if you're going to disinherit Corliss's choice. Yes. It's beyond Corliss. It's the king's choice. It's Corliss's choice. Yeah. And according to the letter of the law, that's who should inherit. If you're going to do that, you better succeed. And also, you better hope that Corliss dies. Yeah. Because when he survives, if he should survive, he's going to be like, wait, what? What did my brother try to do? What?

While I was alive, like that is the thing that is, I think, evidently shocking, certainly to the king and should be to the realm. It's like, wait, Corlys is not dead. Like, yes, fine. You want to do this? Why don't we wait till he dies? Yeah, they're really forcing the subject in a way that doesn't seem to be to their advantage. I mean, obviously it didn't turn out to be to their advantage. Yeah, I think clearly Otto was thinking we've got the steering wheel.

Yeah. King Viserys is, yeah, he's down for the count. I sit the throne. I speak with his voice, as he says, and addressing the petition, I speak with his voice and this and all matters. Yeah. And that's that. And here's a chance to kind of take the legs out from under the black faction before anything even gets started. We take their fleet off the board. Now, all of a sudden, the Valyrian fleet is on our side. And would they even go to war again?

In that case, so I could kind of see the angle that Otto has, which is, OK, if this works, then there's no war because they'd be too weak to try anything. Yeah, right. We're just solidifying our claims that much more clearly. Yeah. Well, and Rainice even says as much when she's like, Tomorrow the Hightowers land their first blow. They force you to your knees and I must stand alone.

It seemed like everyone assumed the outcome would be against Team Black. Why do you think Renise decided to go the way she did? Because it really seemed...

like a struggle for her. I don't think it was an easy decision for her. No, it can't have been. I mean, partly because, you know, we saw the scene in the last... It was the last episode, right? Where they talked about who would inherit Driftmark and she disagreed with him. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, she's honoring his wishes. If he really does die, she's standing by what she knows he wanted, which I think I could totally see being important to her. You know, they've been married for a really long time. They seemed to have a pretty...

honest and open. I mean, that's one of the more positive relationship examples I would say we've seen in this series, those two. I also think... I don't know. I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that it seems like those girls have genuine affection for Rainier's sons. I think so, too. And there really seems to be a real...

understanding of the necessity to all, to use a Valerian metaphor, to all row in the same direction. The way Bela sends that message to Daemon, like, hey, hey, hey. Hey, guess what? You should know what's happening. Vaemond is here and he is petitioning to take Driftmark. Like, that was big. That was huge from her. Yeah. I loved how long that piece of paper was on the note. I like that they're not doing standard legal size things.

And decent penmanship as well. Decent penmanship, yeah. In English, it was great. I appreciated all of those things. Yeah, I assumed that, because you even saw it at the funeral for Lena with the kids all, you know, when she reaches out to hold his hand. I think there's a sweetness to it that helps the incest go down a little easier, I guess I'll say that. Yeah.

We got a lot more incest in this episode. How are you? How are you feeling about it all? I feel like we need an incest status check or something. Well, which part? Are we talking Egg and Helena, which is horrific? I mean, that's the thing. There's a lot. Yeah, that's the closest we've seen yet. Well, other than, you know, Cersei and Jaime and Thrones, I suppose. Yeah, I guess Egg and Helena is, I mean, obviously you feel, yeah, that's bad. The heart just absolutely breaks for Helena. Yeah.

who is enduring God knows what. And, you know, to Allison's point, and this is obviously very far secondary, but is just being shamed and embarrassed by the actions of her friends

which are, again, horrific crimes against various people in the castle. Yeah. Do you think Helena knows about it? I mean, it seemed at least in that one instance that she really had no idea. I don't think that she does. That was, yeah, when she comes in, she's like, where's Diana? She's supposed to help the kids. And then Alison embraces her because clearly she doesn't know. I think that she doesn't know.

And she is kind of, you know, above it all, a different type of person here in this realm, a more carefree kind of person. Ethereal. In her own head, you know, like, and I think she's probably blissfully unaware of the horrific nature of the things that her husband is doing. Mm-hmm.

We should recap Helena's premonitions so far, because one has come to fruition. And she said something weird in this episode. She said something in the last episode, too. So last episode, she said, "Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread," which is extremely-- Did I ask you if you know what that means and you said you couldn't say? I think I might.

Okay. It's certainly less on the nose... Than the eye thing. Yeah, than her premonition, her utterance about Aemond. And then this episode, she says, after Egg, you know, makes one of his really horrendous jokes, the beast below the boards, which, again, I think I know what that means, but a really interesting... Yeah, I mean...

We have to keep track of Helena's utterances. And I wonder, this is a world, obviously, where magic and dragons exist, although we've not seen, aside from the dragons, we've not seen a lot of magic. We haven't. But one wonders what this is. Yes. You know, where this comes from and what it means. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that. Speaking of dragons, did you know that's how dragon eggs were harvested? I was expecting more of like a, you know, a chicken egg situation. Yeah.

I didn't know that that's what it looked like, but in the books there is a lot written about dragon clutches, clutches of eggs, the places where dragons like to lay their eggs. And I think that is going to be important. You know, we remember that, you know, Vhagar before...

She was claimed by Aemond, was free, flying around, perhaps nesting on Driftmark somewhere around the coast. Laying eggs? We don't know. And the fact that Syrax laid a clutch of eggs, this is an arms race now, right? It's who has more dragons, who has the bigger ones, who has the more mature ones. Yeah. And you want to have as many dragons as possible.

when this war starts. And so that's going to be important. I didn't know it would look exactly like that. And I, man, we've never seen Damon that giddy. He was so, he was elated. He was so happy. He was so delighted. Three eggs. That was very cute. It was adorable. So yeah, should we, I mean, we're, next week is the penultimate episode. I imagine shit's going to go down. Shit's going to go down. For a number of reasons. Yeah. Should we do a dragon tally? Yeah.

Sure, let's do it. So we have Caraxes, which is the bloodworm that is the dragon of Prince Daemon. We have Syrax, the dragon of Princess Rhaenyra. Yep. Seasmoke.

Laenor's dragon, which TBD, who's riding that and what happens when a dragon rider doesn't die but you need someone else to ride the dragon. Unclear how that works. But Seasmoke is out there. Then we have Vhagar, claimed by Aemond and the biggest big old dragon on the board. Yeah, that's a good one to have, I would guess. Have we seen Dreamfire? That would be Helaena's dragon, right? I don't know that we have.

Well, I think actually we did. At the funeral? Yes. And then we have Sunfire, Prince Aegon, the Elder's dragon. Rhaena and Bela may have dragons, but I don't think, we have certainly not seen them yet. And then we know for a fact that the Queen that Never Was, Rhaenys has a dragon, Melis. Oh.

That we haven't seen. Interesting. Okay. What did you make of the way that Alicent took King Viserys's last words? He's laying in his bed. He had previously, when Rhaenyra was there, thought that Rhaenyra was Alicent, didn't know exactly what was going on. And then Rhaenyra asked, was it true? Did you believe Alicent?

Egg on the Conqueror's dream, the dream you told me about. The Song of Ice and Fire. And then in the last scene, Alicent by his bedside. The prince that was promised to unite the realm against the cold and the dark. You are the one. You must do this. He clearly thinks he's speaking to Rhaenyra when he says, it's you, it's you that has to unite the realm, the dream...

you know, Aegon's dream and she's Prince Aegon, our son? Like, what? How did you think Alicent took that? You know, it's a good question. I mean, there are two ways to read that. One is that Alicent thinks it's her and the other is that Alicent realizes Viserys is super confused and has been talking to Rhaenyra and thinks it's Rhaenyra. I think either way, it's information that she is not supposed to have and I am very curious to see how she acts with it.

Yeah, I think that obviously like peace and war are balanced on the edge of a knife here in this moment. And it feels like it tipped towards war with Alicent maybe taking away the meaning that, oh, it's me. I have to unite the realm somehow with my son, Prince Aegon, somehow like that is what the king wanted. I think that might be the take. I don't think she's completely...

crystal clear on what she thinks the message was. Yeah. And clearly we know she was confused that it's completely misunderstood, but I don't think she quite knows, but I think there's a chance that she takes away the meaning that she must be an active participant in uniting the realm, whatever that means to her.

So, it was widely known that Aegon had the dream that led to him conquering. No, no, no, no. That's like top state secret stuff. Okay, okay. Well, I knew the other, the Song of Ice and Fire part was. I wasn't sure if, like, the fact that he had dreams at all was his top secret. Well, what's interesting is by the time we get to Game of Thrones era, the Song of Ice and Fire, the prince that was promised, that prophecy was...

was known, and it was probably known because of, you know, increasing contact with cultures over in Essos and the red priests and priestesses of R'hllor who had this kind of like apocalyptic prince that was promised as or a high kind of messianic tradition. But what we didn't know was how Rhaegar Targaryen, the Mad King's son,

one came to understand this prophecy. How did it first come to him and why he potentially was so inspired by it? And now clearly we know because this came from Aegon the Conqueror and passed down over generations to each heir. And the idea was to not tell anyone other than the anticipated heir. So the fact that Alicent knows it all is not great.

She doesn't know what it means, clearly. That's true. But that could make it even worse. Yeah. But you're absolutely right in the fact that, well, there's two interesting things here. One, she now knows has a piece of this prophecy that is only supposed to stay with the ruler and given to the heir. And that's it. And then the second thing about this is that

We don't know how this was passed from ruler to heir. How did it get to Rhaegar if it indeed did? How did it even get to Viserys? Because the king before him, Jaehaerys, was preceded by Maegor, who usurped the throne from the rightful heir. So how did he find out? Like, there's a lot of questions about how exactly, the route exactly that this message took.

And we should wonder about that because clearly these successions are not clean. And the opportunity for the ruler to cleanly tell the heir who will definitely survive what the prophecy is seem pretty scant. And of course we know, you know, there's questions about how exactly it was passed down. And we do know that the message was inscribed on the dagger. You had to heat it up to read it. Although again, how much is known about the dagger itself is,

is also pretty muddled considering that that item was kind of like carelessly gambled away and then used in a very, very messy assassination plot despite having like the top secret Targaryen secrets inscribed on it. So it's unclear that how many people knew about that dagger or even if they could read it,

would know what to do with that information. Right, right. So I think that just leaves us with our last breath. Let me ask you this. If you have a loved one that is...

so decayed that you have to put incense in the room, who can't do anything without copious amounts of drugs to just kind of like exist. Yeah. Wouldn't you just never leave the room? Why is anybody leaving this man alone at all? It was very sad to watch him pass alone in his bed. It was really sad.

I think it speaks to something we've talked about before, which is just how isolating that role is. Yeah. You know, and to think about, sure, there were all those people kind of tending to him and trying to get him ready for to go to court. But in the end, it really was just him. And that's so sad. It's so, so, so sad. You know, obviously a position of tremendous power.

But did he ever really get the, you know, the real information about what was going on around him? I don't know. And it's it was just tremendously sad. I can't believe that anybody, his children and grandchildren live in the castle and no one was with him in this time. They've all seen him. They watched him take his mask off.

The hole where his eye was gaping at them, he had to be carried from the room. Yeah. And yet he died alone, not even his wife by his side. Tremendously sad. Wow. We have two episodes left. In your words, it feels like the shit's going to go down now. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it was a matter of time. And here we are. Here we are. On your mark, get set, go. The king is dead. Oh, my God. Let me ask you, what do you think Otto and crew are going to do? King passes away. They're going to do what?

I mean, they're going to do everything they can to lock it down. Yeah. It feels like that, right? It feels a lot like that. Yeah. I think they're going to make some calls. But I don't know. I mean, I think partly what's so much fun, and I've said this before, you know, as someone who had read most of the books and had a pretty strong sense of what was happening for most of Game of Thrones...

To get to go into this one and just have no fucking clue what's going to happen, I've just really enjoyed being along for the ride. And it's a crazy ride, you know? You are left wondering if the queen has anybody that, when it is learned that the king has passed...

whether Princess Rhaenyra has anyone in the castle that would even dare say, wait, hold on. Yeah. What are we doing? Didn't the king decree that Rhaenyra is... What about our heir? Yeah, hold on. What? Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if that's questioned as much as...

the Driftmark inheritance is. Because that, you know, I mean, I get the, like, sure, he didn't sign the papers or whatever, but, I mean, it is extremely publicly known and has been for decades now that Rainier is supposed to take over. Whether or not, you know, and she has...

as kids who are quote-unquote legit heirs at this point, too. Either way you look at it, right? Sure, legally legit, though, you know, obviously questions remain. But the king proclaimed them from the throne in this very episode, my true-born heirs. Yeah. So it will be fascinating to see what the next moves are because this is it. Amazing. Okay, so our death count. I believe we stand at two. RIP Surveillance.

And R.I.P. King Viserys I. A name fit for a king, as he says to his grandson. That was really touching. That was a really wonderful moment, the way he pepped up. That was. He did brighten right up. Yeah, otherwise it felt a lot like Weekend at King Viserys's, really.

It was two, but it was it felt like, you know, obviously the one King Viserys. That was the one we've all been waiting for. Yeah, that's a long awaited and significant loss for sure.

Today we have a very special guest in the virtual podcast studio with us. Geetha Vasant Patel is an Emmy-nominated Sundance filmmaker known for her emotional, form-pushing, and non-traditional style in both comedy and drama. Geetha has directed both comedic and dramatic shows that include Serpustor, The Great, The Mick, Fresh Off the Boat, The Mindy Project, P-Valley, and Dead to Me.

And now she is adding episode eight of the HBO original House of the Dragon to her list of directing achievements. Geetha, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So how familiar were you with Game of Thrones before directing an episode of the prequel? I was a fan. So I had made two independent films before.

And this was probably seven years ago, six, seven years ago. And they both were documentaries. And after I made my second one, Meet the Patels, I finally got an agent. I was about 35 years old. And we walked into the agency and, you know, they were like, hey, we're going to help you with your documentary career. And I was like, look, I want to work on Game of Thrones. And everybody laughed. They were like...

- Good for you. - That's great. Good luck with that. Good luck, good luck. And literally my first gigs were comedies because my documentary was a comedy and I just kept pushing, trying to get to the, I mean, I love comedy.

You know, I just kept trying to round out my experience, not just in comedy, but with very cinematic shows, streaming, and then getting into the action, getting into the VFX. And literally the goal, my whole team would tell you at my agency, was Game of Thrones. And so then when I finally got the interview, I put together this video and...

cut all my stuff to Game of Thrones music because they were like, how are you qualified for this? I, you know, I put this thing together and I finally got it. And then two weeks later I found out I was pregnant. So that was interesting. And then they, they moved heaven and earth to, I was supposed to do two episodes and then they changed everything around to make it possible for me to at least do one. So I'm super thankful that,

to everybody at the show for making my dreams come true. That's amazing. And how old is the child now? He's a little over one. That's amazing. So he's my little dragon. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. Game of Thrones is often thought about through the lens of these kind of like iconic moments. They're often these big battle scenes or shocking betrayals. And House of the Dragon, this episode is,

Viserys' return to the throne room, you could feel him putting every last drop of strength that he had to make this appearance. And it's such a pivotal moment. Talk about the approach to that scene. And in general, this episode is on the relative scale of House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones episode, a smaller, more family drama episode.

focused episode. So how did you approach that particular scene? When I first read the scene, I saw Viserys going down that aisle and putting every bit of his energy into getting to that throne in order to

save everyone. So as we started preparing for that moment where Viserys enters the throne room and walks down, everybody was freaking out because it's such a long walk, especially when you can't walk that well. I saw it, and Miguel saw it, and Ryan saw it, and all three of us were like, it has to be real. We have to embrace that walk. Because if we shorten it, it actually doesn't tell the story. So...

I think the bar was raised to make sure that there was an impact, there was an emotional moment there that we could all feel. And the question was, well, how do you do that? And so I had always, I guess when I read the script, envisioned, okay, he's walking to the throne. And we started rehearsing it and rehearsing.

Rhaenyra was standing there and she had finished, you know, giving her speech that she was standing in the middle. And I had a moment in rehearsal, like, stop, stop, stop. Viserys isn't walking to the throne. He's walking to his daughter. He's doing it for Rhaenyra.

And that was emotional for me even as someone who loves her father and I know he would do anything for me. And it just crystallized the visuals for that. And so we did the best we could in the moment, you know, just changing what we could, but still keeping our shooting schedule as it needed to be. And that's what made it to that scene. The fact that he was,

He's this man who loves his children and loves his job, for lack of a better word. You know, loves his duties. As we all know, that's just hard to balance. It's kind of all or nothing for both a lot of times in life. And so it's a very relatable situation because what's good for one side of it is not necessarily great for the other side. And to me, at least, that's what that scene is.

came to be about the balance of his responsibilities and the lack thereof. I get the sense watching this episode that Viserys has realized too late the intensity of the danger.

Do you feel like that's the case? Did Viserys really know-- Was he really aware of how bad it was, how bad it could get? Actually, no. Yeah, no, I don't think he was. You look at the dinner scene and the kids, you realize in that dinner scene that he's passing-- He and Rhaenyra and Otto and Daemon and Rhaenys, everyone has passed down their rivalries to their children.

And the children were acting up at the table. And most of the time they had no idea what was going on. It was all happening in hush, hush conversations. And we as the audience saw it thinking, oh God, there's going to be a fight, you know, and sure enough, there was. So I don't think he realized how big it was because he was gone when all the kids started acting up and fighting and saying what they said. He was quite oblivious to it. What do you think?

I think he was oblivious to it. We've talked about it. Greta and I have talked about this. I think he got his kids. I think he got the kids that he had always been hoping for and some grandkids to boot. And I think he just kind of wanted naturally to enjoy that and stop being

worrying about all this stuff. And I think he did that. Yeah, I think oblivious isn't the word I would use as much as like willfully ignorant. You know, it seemed like, and I think especially in the context of like the, who the father of Rainier's first three kids are, right? Like it's pretty obvious. And I think he is actively trying to just not know and not think about it.

I agree with you. I think he decided not to see. And I can relate to that, too. I don't know if you guys can, but that's how my parents are. It's a great coping skill. You know, my dad walks in and I've got a hickey on my neck and he's just like, my daughter has never had sex in her life. We're not discussing this. I mean, and they believe it. They totally believe it. They decide that they build a whole story around it because it's their way of surviving. Yeah.

Well, it's interesting as the director how in positions of power and authority, very often people don't tell you the truth. You know, it's very hard to get that.

In terms of your role as a director, how do you, you know, everybody has their own things that they want to bring to a role, whether it's a below the line job or as on camera talent. How do you marshal all those things to get everybody to kind of like pull together in the same way? Do you have a particular personal philosophy about how you go about the job of directing?

I would say my biggest philosophy is that everyone's kind and everyone's heard. You know, I was bullied when I was younger. First one born in America. I will never forget it. So going into any job, if I see someone who's not being treated properly or isn't feeling included, I say something because I'm at a point in my career where I actually can. That's probably the biggest thing. And I think it actually affects me.

everything I do. If someone has something to say, I want to know it. We're a team, we're a family. And that's my philosophy is on some level we're equals, you know, even though we have different jobs where everyone here has put their heart and soul into this show. I would say the crew is some of the hardest working people I've ever seen. So it's,

I actually feel like so many wonderful moments in the episode came from, not from me, you know, came from someone standing around me or the editor saying, hey, I tried, I played with something. What do you think of this? You know, and that's one of my favorite parts of the job, the family aspect of it.

I would love to talk a little more about the subsequent action in the throne room. Game of Thrones is known for its kind of casual violence, and I thought the way that beheading was shot was really fascinating. I'm curious even if there were other iterations of that action that you filmed even. Like, how did you kind of think through what that needed to look like and what people's reactions were going to be? Since I read the script, I had always seen...

the head just coming off while he was talking. Damon. In my head, it was always that element of surprise. Unsurprising, but also kind of unceremonious at the same time. Yeah. And when I think of Damon, he's quick. When I think of the moment, it was everything was so charged and you just never knew what someone was going to say, how it was all going to happen. And

So that was always what I storyboarded first was that just the simplicity of it.

that Vaemond is arguing with Viserys and all of a sudden Vaemond's head comes off. And then Vaemond isn't arguing with Viserys anymore. You know, there's no special shot for that moment per se, you know, after it, yes. But in that moment, it's literally just his close-up shot that he could have kept talking. He could have kept arguing. And I think there's something great about that. Because it was an important moment, we shot it also in a way that we followed Daemon's

From where he was standing, and you would see him go across, and then he would come and chop off Feynman's head. Oh, interesting. So we did shoot that. A lot of times we'll shoot something, if it's very important dramatically, we'd want the options in edit. So I usually shoot more than one version because I think it's good for the showrunners to have that. That's fascinating because, yeah, you really don't need the dramatic buildup to it at all. Like, it's super effective as it is, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it still makes me smile. I love it. It's like this guy's just reacting to Viserys is yelling at him and the guy's head just like comes off. It's great. Like, and how many, how many jobs can you do that on? This is why I love Game of Thrones. It's like you can do stuff like that. And it, it's Game of Thrones. It's House of the Dragon. Yeah.

One of the most emotionally effective things about this episode for me is how close it seems as if peace could possibly be at hand at the end of the episode. Everything feels like on a knife's edge. If a comment is taken one way, there'll be peace. If a comment is taken badly, there'll be war. And there's various moments like this throughout the episode. And I...

And I think about the seeming rapprochement between Alicent and Rhaenyra where, you know, they're clasping hands at the end of this episode. And of course,

Rhaenyra has courageously offered this very generous toast to her once friend, current rival perhaps. And it echoes a moment earlier in the season where, you know, in a small council meeting, Rhaenyra had kind of offered a very, very generous marriage deal that Alicent had aggressively spurned because she saw it as weakness. What allowed these two characters to reach that place where it seems as if

If you could get everyone else out of the room for an hour and keep them there, maybe they could work it out and peace would rule in the realm. I think Miguel and Ryan for this episode had envisioned that Viserys brought the two ladies together. And the imagery that I always thought of is when your father is in the hospital and

And the two daughters come and sit on either side of him. That feeling, I mean, you could feel it right now. It's these two daughters who have not been talking to each other, who've been fighting, who've been hurting each other. And here is the father that they both love in a way. And so that's

what we tried to build in this episode, that we had to somehow get to that feeling. And if you look at their dialogue, there's not a lot before that dinner that we had to like write on. It had to come from episodes before, which actually even then they were

at odds with each other for at least three episodes before this one. Well, and it's been six years now. And it's been six years. And so that was probably the thing that I lost the most sleep over, but I was the most excited by is how do we do this non-verbally?

And so the way we shot it, I started shooting things from their point of view. I started adding walk-ins, walk-outs. There was just a lot I did to try to bring point of view into this so that you feel, especially for Alicent,

who we have so many reasons to hate a lot of times, trying to be a day in her life. So try to create a day in the life for Alison, a day in the life for Rhaenyra. And there was more stuff that's on the cutting room floor, but some of it made it in there. And that's part of the way that we thought we could achieve it. And then the other part was talking to the actors beforehand, getting everybody on the same page of, okay, if we have to somehow create this turn at the dinner table,

And we don't actually have a conversation about it beforehand. How do we do it? And so we started looking for moments. And we even thought about shooting extra. You know, we thought, oh, maybe we need a scene. But we just didn't have time in the schedule and also time in the script. Like there were so many other essential parts of this story. And so, for example, when Viserys was up on his throne and was taken away at the end of the trial in the throne room...

We were rehearsing and the two of them were standing there. One was on a higher stair and one was on a lower stair. And I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. And they both even read my mind. They're like, yes, yes, yes. You know, and then you're just like, get the camera, get the camera, you know, and, and

There's moments like that where everybody knows what we're looking for. And there is a effervescence and improvisation to the filmmaking in that way, where we all just trusted that we would find those moments and they would have to be looks. So anyway, I was really excited about that. That's just one of them. But it's just so exciting when you're all like, yes, we're going to make it that turn. We have to earn it.

That's so cool. It's so fascinating for me to hear you use the word improvisation given a show like this that is so meticulously scripted. You know, it's really cool. Yeah, I think part of it is that Ryan and Miguel, they've just been so great to work with. They're such partners. You know, I read the script and I called them and I think they spent...

like two, three meetings with me over the course of a week as I went page by page by page. And I'm like, I don't understand this. Why is this? Okay. What can we do for this? What did you mean by this? And when we got to my biggest thing was this turn, I don't understand this turn. How are we going to do this turn? And they said, well, Geetha, this is what we said happened. And I was like, but where is this happening? And they were so supportive and collaborative and saying, well,

It's got to happen somewhere in here. Let's figure it out together. And that's what I'm saying is I think the reason this particular job was so...

great for me, but also I feel really good about the art is that there was this sense of we're not done till we're done. The journey continues as we shoot. The journey continues as we edit. And also we were so inclusive of the actors. Every single actor was involved in the storytelling from the beginning before we even started shooting. We were all having conversations. So, I mean, what, how awesome is that? Right. It was such a thrill. Yeah.

to have that type of experience where everybody was thinking and moving and nobody was saying, no, no, no, just shoot the script. Yeah. You know, or it's fine. It'll work. Nobody felt that way. Everybody was like, yes, this is what, this is a story we have to tell. We have to set these stakes. So let's, let's get there together. Speaking of those actors, we have to talk about Patty's performance in this episode that is so stirring and,

and emotionally evocative at every turn. Again, you just really feel the effort in every moment from King Viserys. What was it like watching these performances on set during this time? It was the reason why I direct. It's the best part of the job is working with actors. Paddy was magical. He would do every take differently, make me cry almost every take.

And then we would call cut and he would start cracking jokes, sometimes singing and dancing. I mean, what a guy he, the only word that comes to mind is magical. He's one of those people that knows his character, spends time thinking about his character. I remember one time he said to me, we were getting close to shooting his final scene. And he said,

So do you know what Viserys believes is going to happen when he dies? And so we talked about it. He talked more with Ryan and Miguel about it. But the point is that he became Viserys throughout the shoot. The more time I spent with him, the more I saw him just walking around like Viserys. So that was interesting. I think it's because he was so there mentally that there was no room for Patty at times. Mm-hmm.

And then as we got to the end, I felt he was able to switch between more often. And that's when the singing and dancing happened. And it was awesome. Yeah.

Seeing how Allison has changed over the six years we don't see and, you know, how essentially in charge she is by the point in this story. And yet how little power she really still seems to be able to take for herself, I think is such a fascinating balance. Yes. And she is another tricky character, at least for me in this episode. And like I said earlier, I read the episode and I didn't like her.

And I thought, wait a minute, we need to love her because this turn at the end is not going to work. And just before this episode, Miguel's episode ended with her speaking to Lars and making this, you know, not making a deal, but aligning with the bad guy. And so I even called Miguel. I was like, can you give me something else to like work with here? Yeah.

And so, I mean, that's the thing. And I talked to Olivia about it and I was, you know, I was like, Olivia, what are we going to do? Like, we got to figure this out. And man, we went into that scene where Olivia is with the girl who got raped by her son. Yes. And that was Olivia. She came in and I loved her. I loved Alison, even though everything she did was self-serving, selfish, selfish.

On the page, it had not made sense to me. But in the moment, it all did. And I know that Ryan, when he wrote it, knew that too. I was the last one to that party, you know, where I was sitting there all ready with my tricks. And she gave it so much dimension. And we had a really great time working on that scene. And then every other scene after that, I knew what she was doing.

And she and I just, I think, really worked well together in that way because we both had the same agenda, that turn at the end. Yeah. But she's the one that did it. She's a great actress. Yeah, I think one of the things that made that turn work for me is how, after this six-year time jump, you really feel as if Alison, having made that deal, has recoiled from it somewhat, or at least said to herself...

is this, do I want to keep going this way? Is this really the way? She's also praying a lot more anyway. Yeah. I mean, clearly, right? And that did a lot, I think, to kind of underline the place that this character was at. She's rediscovered her faith as perhaps, you know,

you know, reaction to the shame, the guilt that she feels over the, what has gone down in the previous episode is, is that part of what you talked about with, with Olivia when you were building this character towards this moment? Yeah. We also talked about the day in the life aspect of it, that,

We couldn't watch Alicent in this episode. We needed to actually be Alicent in this episode. We needed to feel her vulnerability. We needed to understand how much she didn't choose. All this responsibility, she didn't choose it. And she's not even sure she wants it. She's doing what has been handed to her. That's something that we spoke about the entire episode.

time that we were working together and she knows her character. And that's, that's another thing, I guess, of the way I work is I feel like these actors know their characters better than any of us. So a lot of it was me just asking her questions and then she would tell me something and I'd say, oh, well then let's do this. You know what I mean? It really came from her. It was an inside out approach. I was just there to document it, but I

she's the one that did the beautiful painting, you know? Yeah, that's really cool. So I would love to talk to you a little bit about the mechanics of figuring out the six years. I know a lot of that

is something that does live in the script. But, you know, I mean, I've been fascinated by the time jumps that have occurred over the course of these episodes. They're super ambitious. I think they've worked really well. But I mean, narratively, that has to present a number of challenges from your point of view too, right?

It presented the challenge of setting up the episode and the audience understanding who all these characters were since they had doubles. They had new actors, the kids particularly, new actors playing them. So it's interesting because Ryan and Miguel didn't want to have a lot of exposition. Right. They took the West Wing approach where they just put you into it. So they just wanted the audience to...

show up and be a fly on the wall. And so the exposition was very little. And sometimes you might watch a scene and at the end of it, you figure out who the person was, at least. Right. I think that's how it went sometimes. And that actually is a thrill in our mind of watching this show. Hopefully it's not something that knocks everyone out of it, but instead allows them to feel the wind rushing through their hair. Yeah.

How much did you discuss with the actors just about what's happened in the six years? What, why, you know, where, where am I at? Where's my character at emotionally? Did you talk about anything specific or is it just kind of like emotional guideposts to get characters to where they need to be after six years?

Yes, I sat down with every actor in the episode. We spent hours going through what happened to them before they got to this episode. Every actor has their own way of working as well. So sometimes we would just talk about the episode and then a few days later they would call me or I'd call them with, okay, so what about this? You know, it was all kind of a evolving conversation. We had a really good amount of prep time.

on this episode. And a lot of it was spent with these conversations, stealing each of them, saying, okay, let's go back to this. Why is this happening in this scene? How do we make sure that this comes across? And for example, Damon and Rhaenyra,

They're together at the beginning of my episode. Part of the thing that we felt was important was to believe that they were in love with each other and to not just believe it, but feel the electricity of it. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I am very much in love with my husband and I have a crush on him.

And when I see him, I still get chills. And I wanted to see that. I wanted to feel that from them because this was a delicate fleeting moment, as you know, having, you know, seen the show, we needed to feel the realism of that. And so the two of them had a lot of conversations, probably even without me, where they were building their relationship and building the chemistry. And so I was really pleased when we got to shooting their first scene together, where it

Rhaenyra says, I need to go back home. Just the way he looked at her. I just loved that moment. So much happens in small reactions that just looks across the

And I was struck by, at the dinner, first of all, catching up with Amon and realizing that he's become quite a sinister and just in his demeanor, you can feel that this is someone to be concerned about going forward. But the way that Amon...

And Damon are like gunfighters at high noon, constantly looking at each other across this dinner. Where did that where did that come from? Those are such wonderfully charged moments where you could tell each of them is sizing the other up. I mean, everything came from Ryan's writing and, you know, Miguel working with us as well, I think.

There was so much that I had read in the previous episodes. And by the time it got to the dinner, it was a crazy shoot because of that, because we needed to get every single look that was a culmination of seven episodes worth of conflict for everybody. So it wasn't just, oh, what's happening in episode eight. It was, oh, what happened in episode seven, six? Because

As we all know, the things that happen to us throughout our lives are still there in some way to shape us and shape our relationships. That's, again, what's so great about working with Ryan and Miguel is that they were most concerned about the realism of the story and the

It wasn't just what was on the page. It was what was in between the lines and the subtext and the history. And that's really fun when you're a director, bringing the dimension and the history of these relationships to life with looks. This might be a really unfair question, but if you had to pick team green or team black, who would you root for? I mean, I'm with Rhaenyra, I think. She's a family girl, right?

I'm a family girl. I respect it. Part of me would go with green just to help out, maybe bring everybody together. But they have different relationships with their kids. I think a lot about this stuff because I'm a new mom. And actually, because I really think about family a lot. It's the best thing in my life. And

You look at Rhaenyra and she has a warm, great relationship with her kids. She does. And you look at Alicent and something's just not going right. She's furious at them all the time. All the time. For good reasons. Yeah. And the way she deals with her anxiety that started with her, you know, biting her nails and playing with her nails and cutting her nails and all that stuff. I mean, that's what her character has become is someone who...

is very anxious and takes out her pain on her kids a lot of times. So it's funny because when I saw Olivia crafting that and playing that, I was in awe because I saw so many people, even myself in her, we've all done that. It's such a human grounded way to deal with things. A lot of times we're, we're often, um,

most harsh to the people we love, right? Yeah. Her relationship with Otto, I wonder if you could help us understand where it is at this point. Alicent is more comfortable in her role as queen, as an authority figure in the realm, certainly as Viserys is fading. And at the same time, Otto is never flagged and has never for a moment taken his foot off the pedal in terms of

aiming towards the thing that he wants. Is there love there? Certainly there are shared goals of keeping the family safe, but how do they feel about each other emotionally at this moment, six years later after the last time we saw them? I think Alison is at this point feeling very alone. She doesn't feel like she has a real partner in life, and that includes her father. She...

Feels like her father has pushed her to the place she's in. And she can't hear her own voice. She can't feel her own heart beating. So when Rhaenyra enters, that's what she wants. She wants the love in her life. And it's a bit of a love story in a way of these two women. And then Otto was a really interesting experience in working with Rhys who plays Otto. Rhys...

called me before we started shooting and said, you know, I'm a father who cares for my daughter and I want the best for her. And I see the realm falling apart unless she leads it. And he said, I believe that. It's that age old thing, right? If you have a bad guy, for lack of a better word, you want to understand the bad guy's point of view. And you as an actor, you

want to love yourself and believe your own point of view. And that's what Reese was doing. And so he gave me this really strong point of view of what Otto was thinking. And by the time he was done, I was like, oh, you're just like my dad. You just care about your daughter. And so everything we did in that episode was about Otto doing what he thought was right and being misunderstood. But if he could sit down with Alicent

and have a couple of drinks, loosen up, he would say, he would say, I love you. As it certainly appeared that he was having fun at this meal at certain points with the wonderful clapping and the smiles all around. It really felt like maybe, you know, we had a shot there for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's interesting because Reese and I had a really good conversation about just fathers and how they come across as strict or people who don't understand your point of view and they don't listen. And-

That's not really the case. It's much more complicated than that. I think parents want for their children what they have, and they want what they know is safe a lot of times. And what's safe is not always the only route you can take. So looking ahead for you now, I mean, you know, knowing that Thrones was the goal, what's the next goal? Have you thought about it? Other than like maybe taking a beat and actually letting yourself like rest for a second. Yeah.

I'm following my bliss. I'm so thankful that I got to do this and I want to go and do some of my films. There were some films that I wrote when I was a broke ass filmmaker. Yeah.

And now maybe somebody will read them. If anybody's listening, let me know. So, yeah, I think I think I'd like to do that next is go back to my human rights stories that are, you know, about immigrants and stuff like that. Geetha, thank you so much for joining us. It's such a wonderful conversation. Yes, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Well, Jason, what'd you think? I thought that was phenomenal. I loved your question about Viserys walking down the throne room and hearing how they made that work was just really interesting. Yeah, we don't often get these kind of

iconic moments that are heartfelt and stirring in their courageousness, not in any way violent in this world. And that was really a thing that this episode accomplished. What a wonderful interview and so heartfelt in her approach. Yes, the idea of just really putting family first. You really see that in this episode and how cool that she got to be the one to direct it. But that's all for this episode.

Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night when we discuss House of the Dragon Episode 9 with director Claire Kilmer. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Greta Johnson.

Our executive producer is Molly Socia. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.