Dumb Debt Decisions Won't Accelerate Your Financial Growth
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Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people.

Build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, our number one best-selling author, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today as we take your calls about your life and your money. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Hugh is in Las Vegas. Hi, Hugh. What's up? Hello. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. How can I help?

I'm debating on getting in a situation where I may be going further into debt to pay for attorneys to try to protect my kids further. It's kind of been a big struggle. How long has it been going on, and what's the danger? It's been going on about six years. My ex-wife is a

Took five years to do a divorce? Why?

Because she wouldn't agree to anything, wanted to litigate everything, had agreements at different points, and then she refused to sign the papers. She's right about stuff. She's giving money, just all kinds of stuff. Who has the kids now? What's the agreement now?

But right now, just recently, the kids were taken away and our oldest son was granted guardianship of them. Taken away from you or taken away from her? From both, although I already did not have any custody or contact with them due to other court proceedings that were already ongoing. How old are they? They're...

I don't think you're... 13, 15, and 16. Okay. So you were granted no custody. Your older son has the three kids and they're safe? Yes, for now. Okay. Wow. What do you make a year? About $50,000. Okay. And so the money that you're spending is for...

three years for a 13-year-old, or four years for a 13-year-old, and by the time it gets to court, the other two probably won't even apply, right? Possibly. They're going to age out. It's in court now. Basically, I'm trying to... What's in court today? ...have a son.

Well, the guardianship that my son has is temporary. I'm trying to support him in keeping that, to keep custody away from her. But I'm being told that I may be facing charges soon. And it seems like all these lawyers that are involved have kind of, they want to prolong this fight.

And I'm the one who doesn't have an attorney, so I'm the target, you know. It's kind of what it seems like. Why, you told us that she was abusive and all these different things. Why didn't custody go to you? Are there allegations against you as well? Yeah, she's got charges, she said. Right.

The court... So I actually filed for full custody of the children at one point, and the court refused to have a temporary order hearing and said that instead we would go to actual trial in three months' time, I think, at that point. And then a few weeks later...

My ex-wife went and filed for emergency ex parte custody with a bunch of false allegations that she made up, and it was granted without me even knowing that there was anything going on. I was never allowed to present any evidence against those allegations. It was just assumed that I'm guilty, and they were taken away instantly. Okay, so I assume your bank account's dry.

Yeah, below dry. Whenever the children were taken from me, I started borrowing large amounts of money to hire an attorney to try to get this put back on track. And how much debt do you have today from that? Right now, I believe it's right around $70,000. Okay. Well, what I do when I'm facing these situations is I don't start with debt. I start with no debt.

and I figure out how I'm going to handle a very difficult situation without debt. And it's very difficult. I don't have an easy answer for you. But, you know, it's going to involve selling things. It's going to involve no additional debt. You've already got $70,000. We don't need to add to that. So it's going to involve selling things. It's going to involve you working six jobs in order to pay attorney's fees.

And again, the perspective is this is for a very short window because the vast majority of these kids, by the time this gets done, are going to age out. Because once they're 18, this is over. Yeah. Can I ask what their living situation is? Yeah. But like how he's so young, how is he paying? How are you slide money over there? How are they being taken care of? Well, I mean, he's he's.

He's 28 now, I believe. He's got a good job. He's married. He's got a house. Now, which we haven't even gotten to child support. I've been ordered to pay child support for quite a while now. I've been paying that, which is part of the reason why I've not really... I've not been able to hire an attorney because I'm having to pay almost a quarter of my income in child support. Mm-hmm.

So I'm trying to get it arranged where now he can be paid the child support by both of us, both of the parents. Yeah, I guess what I'm asking you... But that hasn't happened yet. What I'm asking is...

I mean, this is your business. Also, you called a national show. But my question is, are the kids best with the brother? Is that where they're best? Because if they are, maybe instead of continuing to drag them through this for it's already been six years. Right. Can they have some stability and peace for the next, you know, four years of their teen life? That's exactly that is exactly what I want. That's exactly what I'm trying to fight for.

Okay. Yeah. I appreciate that. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I think, you know, what we're doing is scratching up nickels out of the corner of the couch in order to try to pull this off.

And that's going to be working an extra job and selling stuff. And you've probably already done a lot of that. And a lot of the things you've probably learned more about the legal system than you wanted to know. And so you probably can file some things on your own.

to try to get some help down at the courthouse, just somebody teach you how to do it, and to redirect the child support to him. That'd be an amazing move right there. And then, you know, if you sell your house or you sell your car and you get a cheaper car in order to help save your kids, that's not a bad deal.

That's a fair trade because I can't think of anything much more important than saving the kids. And wow, what a disaster. What a mess. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you've been through this. Home security can feel like a big investment and you might be thinking, do I really need all that? But here's the thing. SimpliSafe gives you peace of mind every time you head out in the morning or lock up at night. And it starts at about a dollar a day. So you really can't afford not to.

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Caleb is in Chicago. Hi, Caleb. How are you? Pretty good. How are you guys doing? Better than we deserve. What's up? I appreciate the phone call. So me and my wife, I was looking for some advice. We want to take our family. We have three small children. Our dream is to buy a Canadian fishing lodge and run that from about May to November every year. We want to take our family.

The issue that I'm running into, just because I'm new at this, is trying to come up with figuring out how to come up with a down payment for something like that. You know, some of these lodges range from $250,000 to millions of dollars. I'm trying to figure out what's the best way to go about doing something like that. It depends on how much money you have to spend. You don't have any money to put a down payment down?

I mean, I've got, I think I could probably come up with between me and my wife and, you know, asking my parents for, you know, a small amount to pay back. I could probably come up with maybe around $100,000, but it seems like that won't take me very far. What do you make? Right now I make about $90,000. What do you do? I'm in construction, in a job I really don't like. I'm away from my kids. Have you ever worked in a Canadian fishing lodge?

No, but I'm really, really good with my hands, really knowledgeable about fishing and hunting. I'd be doing both. And zero knowledge about business. Zero knowledge about business, yes, sir. A fishing lodge is 90% business, 10% fishing.

I'm just going off of what I've talked to. I've got a couple mutual friends now, of course, since I'm in this process of owners up there. I've talked to them, and both the ones I've talked to, they've owned a lodge now for about 10, 15 years, and they didn't do this before, didn't run a business before. One of them was in construction just like me. Okay.

I'll tell you, I don't, I've never been to Canadian Fishing Lodge. I don't know what that is. Is it something, do you live on the property? Is it like a bed and breakfast where you live there and you provide, you know, all of this for your guests and you're living on the property? Yep, we would live on the property with my family and what we're looking for, we are not going

going to provide the American plan, which is food and everything. It's more of just you're coming up there, you're fishing, we'll guide your fishing trip, we'll guide your hunting trip, show you where to go, stuff like that. But we're not going to provide the American plan, which is all your meals included. So just play this out with me. So you said these could range from $250,000 plus, right, all the way up to a couple million. So let's just pretend you said, okay, I'm looking at the $250,000 plan. My family lives on the property. I put $100,000 down.

So we've got the place we're living there and now we're starting to rent out the experience to guests. What, what happens next on your end? Like what's the next step? I guess I don't know what you mean. What do you mean next step? So you've got the lodge, you purchased the property. What's the next step? How do you build out the business? How do you get people to come to you? How do you build a profit? Oh, I think the next one's yeah, there's already an existing customer base on most of them because you're buying a turnkey, but the,

A lot of the lodges up there for sale are elderly people that are trying to get out and they haven't marketed in years. They don't do online marketing. They're only relying off of their annual return customers. Like I said, both the people I talked to that have purchased the lodge in the past 10 years said it's...

It was really easy to get a lot to up their customer basis. It was really easy with simple marketing tactics. And what do they earn? Like what's their net profit? What are they getting out of this? I mean, I couldn't ask them that. I'm not close enough to them to ask them exactly what they're earning. If you said, I'm going to put $150,000 down, I'm going to buy a $250,000 house.

with $150,000 down. I'm going to have a $150,000 mortgage and I'm going to start a new business and I don't know anything about the business other than I know about fishing and I talked to three people who said it's a good idea. Um,

You know, so the elderly people are going to owner finance the 150 and hope you make a go of it. Okay. Yep. So are you 27 or 29? 28. Yeah, almost like I've done this. Okay. And so I'm your old ugly uncle that's 64 that loves you. Okay. Okay.

You are about 90% dream and about 10% reality in talking to you. Yeah. You have no freaking idea what you're getting into. You just think you do. And it's very romantic with rainbows and skittles and unicorns in your head right now. And when you get up there and get dirt under your fingernails and realize this is freaking mess, you

And what have I gotten my family into? That's about the time you're going to discover how this really works. So I really would love for you to go work at one for one of these people, operate it for them.

as a part of the purchase plan before you close on the deal. Like run it for a year and see the numbers and see what is wrong with this because the only impression you have is all positive. And there are three rules of business, Caleb. It's going to take twice as long as you think. It's going to cost twice as much as you think. And you're not the exception. Those are the three rules of business.

And, you know, the way you're painting this is you are using fantasy language, not reality language. And it scares me for you. I'm afraid you're going to turn this dream into a nightmare if you're not real careful.

And so I'm afraid of that, too. I really want you to get some reality on you in this thing and get under the rainbows and the skittles and find out what the flip is really going on up there. And, you know, why is it that there seems to be a lot of these for sale? And, you know, there's a problem here. OK, so I really want to go work up there. I want you to take your family up there on vacation for three weeks. Find an old couple that wants to sell a two hundred fifty thousand one day.

write down a contract that says I'm going to work for you for a year. At the end of that, I'm going to close on this. If I find out things to be the right thing, be the way that you say they are. And if I can get financing or if you provide me financing. And what's it mean for you to be doing business in another country? Yeah. And now you are an immigrant. I don't know what it means for an America to immigrate permanently and buy a business in Canada. I have no idea how to do that.

I do know it's probably more difficult than it was 12 months ago. So, you know, you probably got some issues there. And, you know, I really want to understand the business better than you are doing. So the way I always ask myself when I'm going into something as a business person, would I hire me to do that?

And if the answer is, I don't know what the flip I'm doing, no, I wouldn't hire me to do that, then that tells me not to go into that space until I learn some more about it. And I am 100% sure you don't know what the flip you're doing on this. Well, there's no... You can fish. There's no numbers around it. I don't doubt that. But you've never run a business of any kind, and you're stepping into this. I'm not trying to be a dream killer. I love killing nightmares, though.

I love killing nightmares. So I want you to go forward with this slowly, carefully, and much more wisely. And then while you're doing that, work like a crazy man and pile up some cash and come up with your down payment and get one of the old people to owner finance it. Because I don't think a bank's going to touch us with a 10-foot pole, dude. And that's probably good for you that they won't. So, guys, thanks.

The wonderful thing about America is that we live in the free enterprise system. And the wonderful thing about America is that 54% of the gross domestic product is brought to you by small businesses. All the goods and services totaled up. Over half of them are delivered by small businesses. People like Caleb who started something. So I love encouraging the free enterprise system. I also have spent 20 years coaching over 20,000 small businesses through our Entree Leadership brand.

And I see all the things that go wrong when you're doing this. So...

You're not the exception. It's going to take twice as long and it's going to cost twice as much. Those are the three rules. And they do apply. They apply to me. To everybody. You're not the exception. When I get ready to go into... When I get ready to go into... We're going to open an app. We're working on one for Dr. John Deloney right now. Let me tell you what. Our projections on that are known as a guess. We have no idea what the stupid app's going to do. And we need to build out our business model as...

as if the thing does nothing. And then when it does something, be pleasantly surprised. You know, and so, and you can get digital advice, but everybody's got a dadgum opinion. They're like armpits. They stink. Oh my God. Caleb needs to invest. His first investment needs to be in your book. Let me send him one. Send him Entree Leadership and send him Build a Business You Love. I want you to do this. I want you to do it in such a way, Caleb, that it doesn't kill you.

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Jade Walsh always with me. One of our favorite things to do is get to talk to people who are heroes in their own story. They took control of their lives and they come in here into our lobby and they stand in

on the debt-free stage. That's where Colby and Mackenzie are. Hey, guys, how are you? Wonderful. We're doing great. Awesome. Where do you live? Chattanooga, Tennessee. Fun. And how much debt have you paid off? $32,000. All right. And how long did this take? Seven months. You kicked it. And how much debt have you paid off?

And your range of income during that time? $82,000. Yeah. What do you all do for a living? I am a family ministries youth pastor at a local church in our community. Awesome. And I just work in employee benefits. Just? Okay. That's pretty good. Very good. So what kind of debt was this $32,000? It was all school debt. Okay. Wow. All right. So we had a student loan debt. And I'm just guessing, looking at this story, you might have been married about seven months.

Yes. I knew it. Okay. All right. So first order of business when we get married is get rid of whose student loan debt? Mine. Okay. She said, don't look at me. All right. All right. And under door number two. I love it. Okay. So before you got married, you realize you had this and there must have been a discussion at some point during the dating process about

Please tell me this story. It's got to be awesome. We were very open about all of these types of things. And her family is a Dave Ramsey family. I mean, she's known these things her whole life. And mine was not. I did not have these principles taught to me growing up. So when I asked her dad, who is also our pastor at our church. So I go to him. It's also your boss. Yeah, it's also my boss. There's a lot of pressure here. There's a lot of pressure there. Oh.

Oh, man, that's a double dip. So I go and I go ask him for his blessing. And it was a conditional one that we do premarital counseling and take FPU before we got married. So we decided to do that. And it was life changing. And we sat down and got on the same page on everything. And as soon as we said, I do, we just went gazelle intensity. Then we did. I do what I did. Yeah, I like it. I like it.

So, just listening to you and looking at your demeanor, I don't think it bothered you that he put that condition, Colby. Oh, not at all. Not at all. He's like, I'm ready. I think we both agree with this, but we wanted to do everything the Lord's way. And I think one of the things that FPU and everything y'all have built here, everything points back to Scripture. Everything points back to...

Hey, you know, we don't want to be slave to the lender. So for me, that was what it was. I'm going to do everything the Lord's way. We're going to do everything the Lord's way. And he'll honor that. So, yeah. Yeah.

So you had to get started on this. You got started on it on your own before you guys got married. And then once you got married, that's when you kind of linked arms on it. Yeah, we took the FPU course separately. Our coach was amazing. And he said, do a hypothetical budget of what it's going to look like when you get married. We knew what our rent was. We knew what all our utilities would kind of look

like. Some things changed, but that's how we were so ready to go. Day one, we were like, let's get this done. And day one, we started it because we had that hypothetical budget in place. So tell us how you got around it, because a lot of times people call into the show and they feel some sort of like guilt of these are my student loans. I feel bad, you know, bringing them into the marriage. She shouldn't have to, you know, they've kind of got that separate mentality. How did you guys get around that?

Well, I know for me, I did the Dave Ramsey plan and I went to school completely debt free, put myself through a bachelor's degree. But coming into that, there was just honestly, Dave Ramsey's like the FPU course in general, that just lined us up on everything. I mean, I know people say it's your debt, it's my debt. When we got married, we eliminated that because we're better as a team. We attacked it the way we knew we could, which is

fiercely and every extra dime going towards it. So that wasn't a problem for me. I don't think that's a problem for either of us. We locked in. Biblically too. I mean, when you get married, you become one flesh. So for us, everything then is combined. We are one together. And I think when you have that mentality, again, when you're going about everything the Lord's way, it all just makes sense. It does. So, you know, it's weird because that's the exact same stipulation I put on my blessing. It's a great stipulation. For Bill and Winston. I said,

You know, you've got to go through FPU together as pre-marriage, and you've got to go to pre-marriage counseling. And that's all I asked. You mean I don't have to be out of debt? Nope. You've just got to be working on it.

And they both went, whew. Yeah, I bet. I thought he was going to be worse than this, Dave. I kind of wanted to mess with you, but I just thought I'd tell the truth. So very cool, you guys. Well, man, I like your dad. He's a good dude. He's a big fan of yours. Well, way to go, you guys. That's a beautiful way to start everything and start.

What it amounts to is not just the debt, but what it represented as the overarching thing in your whole lives is we're going to align on Scripture. You know, pastor's daughter, pastor's employee. We're going to align on Scripture, right? And we're going to align on money, and we're going to align on everything else. And so you've set the table for an incredible life.

The money piece is just a little bit of it, but absolutely beautiful. Very proud of y'all. I bet they were all cheering you on, weren't they? They were so excited for us. They were so ready to see it going for us. We were so pumped. That's so cool. All right, so you tell people that are thinking about getting engaged about

Is all of the stipulation going through the thing and learning together and going to a stupid class and all that? Because, I mean, people roll their eyes sometimes, right? This happens. And rightly so. I understand that. But, I mean, that young couple out there that maybe are not as enthusiastic as you all were to just dive in on this, talk to them and tell them, is it worth it? And what is your key to getting out of debt? What do you blame getting out of debt on?

I would say for the young, soon-to-be-married couple or the young couple that's about to start life together, when it comes to wanting to be debt-free...

The freedom that you can feel knowing that there's nothing holding you back anymore. The world's just going to keep getting tougher and tougher. Finding abilities to be a homeowner one day is just going to continue to get tougher and tougher. And instead of going at it with, hey, let me do what everybody else is doing, continue to follow the mania of just going into debt, going into debt, going into debt.

Be different and trust the Lord. That's the biggest thing. All of this is biblically based. If you look at the word, the word does not want you to be in debt. God's created us to be free. He set the captives free, right? So when we have this opportunity to come and say, okay, let's go at this together. Let's not be do-ish, right? Let's not go somewhere in the middle. Let's go all the way and let's attack life. I'd send my high schooler to his youth group. I mean, come on now.

now preach it pastor preach it i was holding myself back over here i like it that's good man well said well said you're gonna be you're great at your job i'm sure i appreciate god's call on your life excellent brother well done you two well done all right mckenzie what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is

Just doing it and cutting back eating out. I'm not going to. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. That's one thing we discovered shortly after getting married. Ouch. Yeah. I learned to cook real quick. And that changed our budget completely. So do everything in your power to get out of debt. You guys are so impressive. Budget. Budget's a big thing. Okay. If you ain't tracking, you ain't trying. That's what our FPU coach would always say. Can I say?

Steal that. Steal it. Steal it. You ain't tracking, you ain't trying. It's probably one of your teammates here saying that. Wow. Love that. That's good. You ain't tracking, you ain't trying. I like it. Well, the EveryDollar app does that and even more now. So well done, you guys. Very proud of y'all. Y'all are superstars. Very fun stuff. All right. Colby and Mackenzie set for life. How old are you two, by the way? 23. Wow.

There we go. Future millionaires. There we go. By the time they're 30. Colby and McKenzie, Chattanooga, Tennessee. $32,000 paid off in seven months, making $82,000 as brand new newlyweds. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're dead! Yeah!

And all the old people are going, I wish I'd done that in my first seven months. Oh, I know. That's right. All the old people are going, where was that when I was that age? Oh, my gosh. Well, it was here. It was called Common Sense back then, too. But, wow, what a great start, man. Wow, powerful. You ain't tracking, you ain't trying. That's my takeaway. Game on. Game on.

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You want to be Colby and McKenzie? If you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck, wondering where your money's going, your first step is getting on a plan. Our team is hosting a free budget training this month. You're going to learn step-by-step how to make to and stick to a budget using every dollar available.

Because if you ain't tracking, what was it? You ain't tracking, you ain't trying. Ain't tracking, you ain't trying. There it is. Plus, you can get your biggest budgeting questions answered in a live Q&A. We may just make that the new byline for EveryDollar. I like it. It sounds like something Chris Campbell would say. Yeah, it does. He's our EveryDollar guy. Yeah. Sign up for free at EveryDollar.com slash webinar. Spots are limited. It is a free budget training. Don't miss it. Terry is in Montana. Hi, Terry. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

So about four years ago, we started meeting with a financial planner and she talked us into getting some whole life insurance policies for my husband and I. And so we did that. And recently I've been listening to a lot of your show and hearing how you feel about whole life policies. So I gave her a call to let her know that I wanted to cash those out and surrender them or whatever the terminology is for that. And

And I initially left a message for her. She called me back. And so when she called back, I was just like, yeah, I've been listening to Dave Ramsey and you know, he's not a big fan of the whole life insurance. So she shot back and said, you know, Dave Ramsey, he has so much whole life insurance. That's how he's planning to, to, you know, share his wealth with his, with his family and kids when he passes on. And like,

It made me feel really bad for even asking to cash out my insurance policy. So now I don't know what to do because I really, like in my mind, the premiums are due in June. I pay annually. And I was like, well, it really had my heart set on cashing those out, taking whatever money we got from them and maxing out our Roth IRAs for the year. It's a lot worse than...

whole life life insurance situation this is really scary because your financial planner is a crook and a liar a liar yeah that's bad that would scare me if I were you because I obviously I obviously don't have whole life life insurance Terry that's just completely asinine I mean that would be on the front page of the New York Times okay that'd be like Dave Ramsey has a credit card

You know, I mean, come on. Or I leased my car. I mean, what kind of dumb butt would say Dave Ramsey leased his car? A crook. Okay. I don't lease my cars. I pay cash for them. You know, I mean, Dave has six credit cards because he likes the air miles. I mean, what kind of dumb butt would say something like that? I mean, this is not only a crook. It's a dumb crook. A desperate crook. You know?

And so, yeah, I mean, it's a non-starter. Don't let your financial planner be a crook. Fire her. Fire her. Get away from her. You got to get away from her, honey, because if she'll lie about this, what else is she going to lie about? Right. Yeah. And she's not really a financial planner. She's an insurance agent posing as a financial planner. She works for an insurance company, doesn't she?

No, she works for Thrivent. Yeah, that's an insurance company. Is it? It's a whole life life insurance company. They're not financial planners. They're whole life life insurance salesmen. And she's a crook. I thought they were financial planners. No, she's a life insurance salesman. And so, yeah, they're not financial planners. So financial planners represent many different products. She sells one, Thrivent.

And so now you need to get away from her and cash those out. Let me just tell you. And move my funds away from her. Listen, you need to go see someone else. Go to one of our SmartVestor pros or go somewhere else and sit down with someone that is an independent person that can sell mutual funds, can sell insurance, can help you, guide you through this, and will not shame you when you get ready to make a decision about your money. Right.

Yeah, because the thing you have to realize is, and it's not for you to lord this over, but they're working for you. You're paying them a percentage to do a service for you. So you're the one, if there's a balance of power here, it rests with you. They shouldn't be manipulating you. They shouldn't be trying to kind of make it seem like they're the smart one and you're the one that doesn't know what they're talking about. That is the wrong feeling when you're working with somebody, especially with your money. Yeah, so I mean, here's the thing.

You walk in on a car dealer floor and they say, you know, you need to lease the car. Dave Ramsey leases car. You don't just say, no, he doesn't. You just say, peace out. I don't do business with crooks that lie. And you walk to somewhere else.

And you go somewhere else. I walked in to buy a washer and dryer with my wife one time at an electronic store, and the guy tried to convince us to get an extended warranty. And I said, oh, we don't do extended warranties. I'm so arrogant. I thought he recognized me. He didn't. And he goes and says, Dave Ramsey gets extended warranties on everything he buys here.

And I said, well, I'm pretty sure he doesn't. And he goes, oh, yes, he does. I can show you the file. And I said, I'm pretty sure he doesn't. And I handed him my driver's license. And he said, oh, no.

Yeah, that's what he said. Yeah. Oh, biscuits. Oh, biscuits. Yeah, that's what he said. And and my wife is like and he's like, we're going to make you a great deal. I'm so sorry. I'm like, there's you couldn't give me this whole freaking store right now. And Sharon's like, well, we need to. I'm like, Sharon, I need to leave here before I say something. And he has a real Dave Ramsey story. So we're going to Lowe's and buy it over there. And so, oh, my God.

You know, so you just don't do business with crooks, hon.

Because once they lie to you about one thing, you know they're going to lie to you about something else. Or you don't know when they're lying. And she's showing that you guys don't have the same values. You said, you made it clear to her, I value Dave Ramsey's opinion. I listen to Dave Ramsey. And rather than really take that to heart. Or just say, you know, I agree with Dave on some things, but I disagree. And here's the points and argue on the merits. Yes. But, you know, but that's so, yeah. But here's what's interesting.

20 years ago, people said this, like whole life agents would say that. That's been going around for years. They also say I own a term life insurance company, which is absolute bull crap. I don't own a term life insurance company. So I would have made a lot more money if I did. But I don't. Xander owns it. And he pays me ad money. I get money, ad money off of Xander. But they tell this stuff. And back then, you could get away with it. But now there's this thing people called the internet. Yeah. And there's this thing called social media ads.

And there's this thing called a podcast. And so Terry can call here and actually talk to me. And ask. And so if you start lying like this, it's going to cost you now at a different level than it used to cost you. There was a timeshare place that set up at the local mall. And they would tell people, Dave Ramsey's got three of our timeshares.

And so our producer went over there with a microphone, Blake, back in the day. Yeah. And got him to say it. And he said, now we're going to put this on the air if you ever say it again. Yeah. Put them on blast. That kind of put an end to that crap. I know you did. But it's the same stuff. It's just people. When you got no defense for your crappy product, you lie. Mm-hmm.

You lie. That's what you do. And so – and Thrivent's whole life life insurance product is crap. Wow. It's knee-deep manure right along with the other whole life products that are out there. So, jeez, man. Unbelievable. That's so funny, though. It's so cute. I mean, did you actually think you could get – in this current environment of the digital world we live in that you can just say crap and just get away with it. Of course, everything on the internet is true, right? Yeah.

If you live your life that way, good luck to you. Yeah, you need to find another way to save your sales. Like actually logically defend your product line. But when you can't do that because it's such crap, then you have to go to these extremes. And that's just sad. It's just really sad. So Terry, when you're looking for a real financial planner, they're going to have the heart of a teacher.

Now, the SmartVestor Pros are mutual fund brokers is what they do. They do not work for me. I am not on commission with them. I don't own them, but I recommend them because they have to have the heart of a teacher or they will not be one of the SmartVestor Pros that we recommend.

and they're going to go along with the stuff that we teach here on the air. The four types of mutual funds in your rollover IRAs and your 401ks. I hope you get your kids' college fund started. Make sure your will is intact. And, of course, you know, they're not going to sell you life insurance. If they did, it would only be term. Otherwise, they wouldn't be recommended by us. Hello. That's not hard. Wow, this is such a difficult job.

Not. Statistics show that half of Americans don't have enough life insurance. Or they don't have any at all. I don't understand this, John. Why don't people want to take care of their family? They think they're going to die or something? Well, I used to be one of those guys. I didn't even think about it. And one of my buddies said, hey, the only reason to not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids.

And I immediately went and got term life insurance. That's a gut punch. And you're telling me, and for decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse. They've lost somebody important to them. Me too. And they don't know what to do next. Me too. I mean, you're going to have a crisis here. And, you know, you got two options while you're sitting and talking to a young widow. She's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up. Or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow.

That's exactly right. These are the two options. Take care of your dadgum family, man. Term life insurance can replace income, pay off debts, cover funeral expenses, so your family can actually...

have the opportunity to just be sad, to just miss you. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. It's saying I love you to your family. Term Life Insurance. Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy and affordable. I've used them personally for 25 years. They're the only people I trust. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships. Thanks for hanging out with us, America. Jade Walshaw, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author. She's my co-host today. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Sam is in Buffalo, New York. Hi, Sam. How are you?

Hi, Mr. Ramsey. Thanks so much for taking my call. Good afternoon. How are you, sir? Better than I deserve. What's up? So, Mr. Ramsey, I am looking for your permission to be...

to be able to spend money and live well while I'm young. Let me provide some context. My wife and I are both physicians. We collectively make a little under half a million dollars. Over the last five years, we've been living only off my paycheck and using her paycheck entirely towards her student loans.

I did not have any student loans, so we had the luxury of doing that. We recently paid that off. Yay. Way to go. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. We're very happy. So we have this new income, which we've never used before.

for the most part, we live pretty conservatively. I drive the same car I did in residency, and we did buy another car as our family grew. We pay $500 a month on that, and we plan on paying it off by the end of this year, calendar year. Mr. Ramsey, I, more and more as I'm getting older, I'm 37. Oh, you're ancient. I don't know how you get around.

And just trying to keep up with you, I suppose. The people around us are getting old as well, and we look to them as examples, family and friends. And what I tell you is most of our closest family members are not living the retirement life they thought they would. My father passed away last year after about an illness that –

It took him about a decade to sort of succumb to. Prior to that, over those decades, he was mostly non-ambulatory. My father-in-law was diagnosed with early onset dementia before the age of 60 and now is in a nursing home. So both my mother and mother-in-law are living lives that they never thought they would.

And I look to them, and although the sample size is small, I worry about my wife and my health as we get older. As a physician, my paycheck is mostly guaranteed. I mean, I'm licensed in three states. If we lose my job, God forbid, it would not be very hard to find something soon. We have a little over $100,000. What's your question, Jay?

Yes, sir. My question is, is it okay to spend, say, $15,000, $20,000 a year traveling with my wife, creating memories? That's easy. Yes. Of course it is. Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't teach people to live in a cave and collect lint when they make a half a million dollars, unless you're working on getting out of debt.

But you didn't exactly sacrifice when you got out of debt. You were still living on $200,000 while you were getting out of debt. And you got a car loan. Sure. And then you went and borrowed money to get a car. So pay the stupid car off, and not by the end of the year, dude. Yeah, how much is it? What do you make? You make like $40,000 a month. Jeez. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, pay off the car. And go on vacation. And go on vacation. $15,000 worth three times a year.

And you don't. And let me also add to that, because there was a lot of like comparing to other people's lives and why. Just this is your life. Like your life is your life. This is your income. This is what you did about your debt. And this is how you're going to go on vacation. You don't have to justify it by all these kind of like woven in things that you were doing. You're a doctor. You see sick people all day long. Could that possibly skew your decision making? Of course it could. One hundred percent. Yeah.

So, you know, and so all you see is, you know, all these things. I'm a guy that helps people not avoid bankruptcy. So when I pull up to a stoplight and see a nice car, I see a car payment. You know, I don't see a nice car. So, you know, anyway, all that to say, yes, of course, we teach people baby step one thousand dollars. Two is out of debt. Everything but the house that includes your car and your student loan. We're there now. Then baby step three is an emergency fund. Three to six months of expenses. I'm guessing you have some money saved for an emergency.

Correct. How much? I do. Yeah. We have a little over $100,000. How much do you owe on the car? $8,000. Okay. Pay it off tonight when we get off the phone. Okay? Now, then you're 100% debt-free except your house, right? Right.

Correct. Good. Okay. Now we've got an emergency fund. We're at baby step four. Start bidding 15% of your household income away towards wealth building and retirement. And then let's start paying off the house. But when you leave baby step three and you are debt free and have your emergency fund, we teach people to move from intense...

which is where you don't go on vacation or out to eat, to intentional, which is where you do go on vacation and you do buy a nice car because you make freaking half a million dollars a year. You need a good car. Don't drive a hoopty. And certainly don't put your wife in a hoopty. And so, yeah, you need to spend more than $15,000 on a vacation. That's what I was going to say, but I didn't want to. That's not much of a vacation for a guy who makes a half a million dollars.

Okay, you need to do... I want her in a Four Seasons or a St. Regis. I want her enjoying this, okay? Which, by the way, is going to make you enjoy it. I hope she is listening because you are going to go take her to Marriott.

I know you were. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, after listening to you, I always want to cover my defenses. I want to make sure that we're able to pay for the kids. You're in great shape. I just want you to do everything on purpose. That's all I want you to do. I want you to look at the whole picture and say, I have this much. If I put this much on a vacation, mathematically, it's irrelevant. Mm-hmm.

$15,000 to $30,000 on a vacation when you make a half a million is 8% of your income. It's financially, mathematically irrelevant. You could take that much and burn it in the middle of the floor and your life would not change.

That's the way you need to learn to look at it. It's the burn it in the middle of the floor example, the ratios. Now, if you make $30,000 a year and you want to call me and say, I'm going to spend $30,000 on vacation intentionally, I'm going to say you're intentionally stupid. Don't do that. Okay? Because that's 100% of your income. No, we're not doing that. But, you know, so I...

The hard part, I think, comes when it's something that is clearly your wife values experiences. That's a love language, a spending love language she has. Clearly, it doesn't seem to really be yours. So it's probably harder for you to justify that amount. So looking at it through that lens should make it easier to say, hey, she values this. It's the mathematical side is still what Dave said. But if you can look at it and realize that, that's why you don't want to spend the money. It's not because you don't.

It's not because it's too expensive. You're exactly right. And here's the thing. We need to make sure everyone hears the message more often because he didn't get the message of live like no one else. So that. So that is the key conjunction. You can live and give like no one else. I'll guarantee you that Sharon and I are leaving in two weeks on a two week vacation.

And it wasn't $15,000. I don't want to know how much it was. It's going to scare us. Don't scare the people, Dave. We live like no one else. And I'm not being snobbish, but I mean, I've worked my butt off for a long time. Now I'm an overnight success, right? So, you know, it's an irrelevant amount of money. Of course. Mathematically in my life. So live like no one else so that...

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Visit Yrefy.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states. All right. Today's question comes from Nathan in New Jersey. He says, we have paid off our debts and are working on a six-month emergency fund. Baby step three. It's been a dream of mine to day trade via algorithms, and I believe I have something that is very profitable, roughly 300% annually.

I've done everything I can to test my theory and it has worked. So I feel the risk of losing is low. However, I know Dave, just try to work with me here. However, day trading requires 25,000 in the brokerage account and it would take about a year to get that capital.

How would it be wise, would it be wise to use the emergency fund as capital for the brokerage fund and only trade with money we have saved beyond that $25,000? I would still retain the $7,000 in an easy-to-get-to account in case an emergency happened. Okay. Let me tell you why Dave was laughing. Well, first you said...

That you believe it's going to be profitable. Is there a Nigerian prince involved? Probably on the other side of this, meaning it's a scam. My thing is, you know that you need the $25,000 to test it, which means you really haven't tested it. So you really are just operating off of belief. No, he ran hypotheticals. Yeah, but... He pretended with... He ran the numbers as if he had done the investment. He... He ran the algorithm and the algorithm worked. Okay, okay.

Which is the worst possible thing that could have happened to him. Probably, yes. But there's the part of this that it's still day trading. And the statistics on this are really, really bad. It's so bad. I think I read one. George Campbell put this in his book. I saw him the other day. I happened to flip up and see him on my Instagram watching George Campbell. Me watching George on Instagram. Imagine that. Wow.

The number I had, the last piece of research I saw was 78% of day traders lose money. Interesting. George's recent piece of research he just picked up is if you persist in day trading longer than six months, 97% lose money. That's what I was going to say. 97% lose money. Let me help you with that, Nathan. Speaking from the perspective of an algorithm, 97% is all of them.

Lose money. Over time. Yes. Which means you're not making money. Yeah. So...

Honey, you need to find another way to make money instead of trying to beat a system that no one has ever beat. And especially to put your emergency fund up. That just screams of greed and desperation. Yeah. Why are you so desperate? That's the question. The question you need to walk away from, Nathan, is why? Why must this happen so quickly for you? What is wrong inside of you that's causing this? Because something's wrong, honey.

Because this is straight up stupid. It's your family's emergency fund. You're putting your family stuff at risk here to do something that 97% of the people fail at. And you think you found the silver bullet.

I'm sorry. Pride comes right before the fall. That ain't happening. Even if you played it out, even if you're a person listening to this and you're like, well, it's not my emergency fund. I've got some money to play with and I paid off my debt. If you like burning money, this is a good way to do it. You can just completely set it on fire in the middle of the floor. I'd rather buy a car that goes down in value to nothing. At least I get some fun out of it. I'd rather go to Las Vegas. At least that's more fun. It's not that fun. Losing money is just not fun.

There's nothing hilarious about it. Really? Like when the table's hot, Dave, come on. You get a drink. Dave, don't come on. You and Rachel can go play craps. Dave, don't play craps.

So I just work too hard for my money because I noticed that the furniture and the chandelier right above that crab's table is really nice. Oh, it is. And I know who paid for that. Losers! That's who paid for that. It's entertainment, dude. The people entertained. Are you not entertained? Yeah, that's it. So there we go. Yeah, no, that's Nathan, honey. This is, you know, you need to, the rule for building wealth is...

Those that can delay pleasure, the ability to delay pleasure is an emotional sign of maturity. And so this very email screams that you're 19. Right.

Indeed. Or a very immature 30 or 40-something who's trying to make up time. Even worse. Even worse, yeah. You're functioning at a 19-year-old level. So, yeah, this is one definition of maturity is the ability to delay pleasure. Every time I read the book The Tortoise and the Hare, the hare never wins.

And you just described the game of the hair. Real investors invest steadily over a long period of time, and they are the ones that systemically build wealth. A high probability of becoming a multimillionaire by investing steadily over time. Not looking for a magic bullet, not trying to find an algorithm, or a Nigerian prince. And certainly not pledging your emergency fund.

To be an investment. Because then you become the emergency. So, wow. You know what happened there, Jade? I just realized it. Kelly, you did this, didn't you? This is our... Our team set us up. Why do you think they did that? Because they knew that I would be... I would go off on this. Yeah. And I mean, it's... Like, this is so dumb. They knew I would lose my stuff on it. Yeah. So...

Yeah, that's exactly. I feel like you kept your composure pretty good. I hope Nathan's actually real and they didn't just make this up. No, they don't make them up. No, they don't make them up. But they do go through and try to find something to get Dave riled up. I know they do that. I mean, this is a Dave riled up meeting. It's our production meeting. This is TikTok, though. This is what everybody's telling you to do. You know, going to the moon. Well, let me help you. There's not much life lessons on TikTok you ought to follow. Jeff's in Charleston, West Virginia. Hey, Jeff, what's up?

Hey, how you doing? Thanks for taking my call, Dave. Sure. How can I help? With some recent shakeups at work, I'm a little concerned that I'm putting too much money into retirement. I'm 45, and I'm putting around 20% into retirement. You have a house mortgage? No, I rent. I have a house fund that I hope to buy a house outright when I pull the trigger on it. We would tell people at your stage, I assume you have no other debt.

No other debt. Okay. If you have an emergency fund, we would tell people that you're at what we call baby step four and you would be putting 15% of your income into retirement and the rest of it would be going in your house fund. Okay. So I'm going to beef up the house fund a little bit, which could convert to an oh crap fund if I lost my job.

Which is kind of why I've been paying a little closer attention to the retirement account lately. Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Now, you're not going to lose the 401k. You understand you own it. Even if they go belly up, that doesn't affect your 401k. Right, right. So you're safe on that part. But, yes, I'd be putting 15% away, and I'd be putting the rest of it in the house fund. And in the worst-case scenario, it becomes an extra-large emergency fund.

Okay. Okay. Do you think I should still go straight the 401k route? Sure. You know, because I've always looked at Roth IRA. Do you have a match? Is the company offer a match? I do. I get a 5%.

Yeah, I get a 5% match. Okay. Get it while the getting's good, buddy. Yeah, match is free money. And then after you can invest up until the match. And then if you want to reach over and do a Roth IRA, you could do that and max that out. And then if you still have money left, then you could come back to the 401k and do it that way. But the total of all of that is no more than 15% of your income in a year.

Okay. Okay. And if you have it both ways and your 401k has a match and it's Roth, I would just stay there and max that out. Yeah. Agreed. Okay. Yeah, because I was just kind of wondering because it feels like that's going to grow to such a significant retirement 401k that I can't touch for another 15 years. You'll be okay. But my house...

Yeah, you look over there and see a million dollars in there. It won't piss you off. You'll be okay. He'll be very happy. That's how millionaires are born right there. You just heard it. You heard the birth. Did you hear the egg crack? That was the beginning of a millionaire right then. ♪♪♪

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Renee is in New Orleans. Hi, Renee. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? I have a question about Parent PLUS Loan. My dad took it out for me and my two older sisters, and I've since graduated. This was 16 years ago that I graduated. But

But anyway, they're kind of my parents are getting to retirement now. And it's basically like they're my dad always finds a way to throw in there that like he's paid on these parent plus loans like our whole lives and just like.

um saying that it's the reason that he's broke and that he doesn't have money for life insurance and he's you know feeling the pinch of like retirement and um I basically don't know what to do um because I don't really know how much he owes it's all like he just likes to throw it in there and kind of like

He's upset about it, but my mom won't let us pay them because basically all three of my sisters, if we can't all pay, she doesn't want any of us to pay them back. What was the original idea? Was the idea we're taking out these Parent PLUS loans so you all can go to school and this is our gift to you? Or was it said from the beginning, we're taking these out in our names, but you guys are paying them? Was there an agreement? Do you remember? No.

So it's been a long time, and I don't really remember what the agreement was for me. But I know for my oldest sister, I just recently talked to her about it. My oldest sister, who's eight years older than me, she said that when they first did it for her, it was kind of like, we'll pay for the Parent PLUS loan while you're in school, but then after that, we want you to pick up the payment. So did she pick up the payment? No.

She did for like maybe a year. And then when she got married and she had a baby, like my parents kind of just like relieved her of that responsibility. So there's it's a gray area is what you're saying. It's a little different for everybody.

Right. And then my other sister did the same thing. She paid for a little bit after she graduated. But then since my oldest sister wasn't paying, my parents were like, well, it's not fair for us to make you pay. And so she stopped paying. But like by the time it got to me, none of them were paying. So they never made me pay. Do you know if you asked how much they are, dad, how much how much are they? Would he tell you?

The thing is, he consolidated them and stretched them out over this long period of time, which is why, like, it's also hard to pay because they're all not together. Do you have a total amount? I think it's in the $40,000 range for all of them. All right. And so do you and your sisters have $15,000? We do not. Then the discussions are irrelevant, honey. You don't have the money. Your dad signed up for this.

And he regrets it and he's and he feels bad and he's not much of a I mean, I got to tell you, I'm kind of I'm pretty disappointed in him for guilt tripping his own kids after it was a decision he made. Be a man of honor. Eat your broccoli, buddy. You signed up for this trip. Don't dump it on your kids every time they come over for Thanksgiving or don't be shocked. They quit coming over for Thanksgiving. They're going to get tired of you.

It has like pushed us away. Yeah. Nobody likes being a travel. Nobody likes hanging out with a travel agent for guilt trips. Now there is a side of this and I'm in no way putting this on you, but I'm putting myself in your position. If my dad had done this and I was hearing about it,

me being who I am today, or even back then, I might be interested in figuring out, okay, how much did you take out? It was my education. What is it that I'd want him to speak for real to me? Well, if it's 40 today, I would just take it by three, which is 15 grand roughly. Yeah. 12 grand, you know, and just write a check and hand that to him. Exactly. I'm done. I'm done. You talk to the other two.

And that's, I mean, I'm not saying you have to do that. What do you make? You're in your 30s. What do you make? I make $50,000 a year, or $50,000 to $60,000. Are you married? I have two jobs. Yes. What's your husband make? He's about the same, $50,000 to $60,000. So you guys make $125,000 a year? Yes. You have other debt? Our house, and we're expecting a third baby on the way. And you don't have the dime? You don't have any money?

I do have a car note right now. Oh, that's dead. But other than that, yeah, I owe $26,000 on that. Good Lord. But besides the car note and the house, we're good, and we do have a savings. How much is in your savings? Like $3,000. Okay. So you're not good. You're broke. You're your dad looking for the same thing to happen in a few years.

Okay, so you guys need to get your ass crap together, get this car paid off or get it sold, get you an emergency fund built, and then you can have a discussion about whether you want to reach over and help your parents. But today, you don't have a legal or a moral obligation in what you've told us. There's no ethical obligation here. It would be a gift, which is what Jade is describing she would do. If you get yourself in a good, strong financial position and you want to give someone a gift...

that's related to this discussion, that's fine. But this is a charitable gift. You could write charity on the foreline of the check if you wanted to.

Because you do not owe this money. You really don't. And the only reason I was saying it is if you thought there was some way, because I'm thinking this, my dad, this is eroding our relationship. If there's some way that I feasibly can kind of take this into my own hands, that's something I would do. But you don't have to. And it's not to say that it would even fix it. And you don't until you don't have a car payment and you have an emergency fund. That's right. That's right.

And have a baby. You know, you got three things going on here that need money long before your dad gets any. So I just want you I want to set you free from his guilt trips. He's not very honorable to do that. It's sad that an old man does that to his kids, his three daughters. And they do it all time, though. And he's playing victim. He's playing victim for a trip he signed up for.

But the learning from this way since he took it out, it's been this way since he every it's all in all other parts of his life, too. You're not the only place that he blames someone else for his own stupidity. But the learning that you can take from this today is don't be him. Don't be him. So you today have a situation that you need tending to, which is your own finances, so that when your baby gets old enough to go to college, you're not taking out.

you know, parent plus loans. And so that when you're that age, you can look up and feel good about how you've managed your finances instead of pulling load off and blaming off on everybody else. So this is your learning from this. So number one, if you never pay it back, that's fine. Number two, definitely don't pay it back until you don't have a car payment, deliver this baby successfully and have more than $3,000 in an emergency fund. Mm-hmm.

OK, you need a three to six month emergency fund. You need zero debt except your house. And then if you want to save up 12 grand additionally, you and your husband agree on that. You do that in your budget and you want to throw it at them as a gift. That's fine. If you never pay him, that's perfectly OK with me. I'm really good with that. Me, too. The only reason I would have you pay him is for you, not for him. He is not deserving. I'm pretty disgusted with him right now.

So, I mean, I can't imagine. I'm 64 looking at my grown kids in their 30s and go and I mean, you owe me. Unbelievable. My kids would look at me and go, who are you? You know, and because it just wouldn't happen. I don't know whether it's hillbilly honor or what it is. How do I just have too much pride? Yeah, I

That's what I'm wondering. Don't put on your kids. It's a lack of honor. Mm-hmm. I agree. It's just a problem. So I just, gee, yeah, we got a manhood crisis in America. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in. There's one way to solve all that, by the way. No student loans. Yeah. How about that? How about looking at these three girls when they're 17 and go get a job and go to community college? Go to a state school. Hello. Hello.

You can't go over there. You can't afford it. We don't have the money and I'm not going in debt. You're up a creek, kiddo. You got to figure it out. I like that answer. I do too. Parents are not required to pay for college and they're certainly not required to go into debt for it. But you are required to have a conversation early on about what the expectations are. And the expectation is there's no debt. Yeah. So go to a school you can afford. We'll help you when we can and that you can work while you're in school. By the way, it's not child abuse.

and you can get some scholarships and you can go to a state school because nobody really cares where you went to school. All they care is you actually learn something. That's all they care. You never hired a doctor based on where you went to school.

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coverage checkup. Jacob is with us in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hi, Jacob. How are you? Not too bad. Thanks for your time today, Dave. Appreciate it. Absolutely. What's up? My question for you is, I've been taking side gigs from my W-2 employer, and I'm transparent about it, but there is some tension between me taking those side gigs. Wait a minute. You're taking side gigs what now? I'm taking side gigs in addition to my W-2 job. Okay. Why would that create tension? Is it the same type of work?

Yes, same type of work. For context, I work in the events industry, and it's for my old employer, too. So that might be point of contention. So your girlfriend ain't cool with you hanging out with the ex? Kind of, yeah. I can understand that. Are you taking money out of your employer's pocket?

No, I'm currently salaried and every time I go out. No, I mean, I mean, are you the business that you're doing with them? Is it harming your employer? No, I'd argue it helps actually, because we could be a supplier for them. Okay. So, um, in other words, it's not, it's not a, it's not competing. You're not assisting the competition.

Correct. That is not the case. Okay. And so you're not taking clients away from your – the guy you're working for is not taking clients away, nor are you taking clients away from your current employer. It's not the same gigs your current employer could have gotten. Okay. So are you not getting work done when you're at your main employer because you're screwing off with the other stuff?

That is his fear. That's not the case right now. He thinks that might come to be that way. Okay. But I see it as a revenue-generating opportunity for our company as well as myself. Well, that's – yeah, it's mainly you that we're concerned about. And listen, you've got to give 110% while you're on the job to relieve that concern. Okay. Yeah.

So here's the thing. The reason I'm asking all these questions, and Jade, we talk about this all the time. Business ethics is fairly easy. You don't need a whole semester course in college on business ethics. Let me help you with business ethics. Treat other people like you'd want to be treated.

Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. So reverse positions. You have an employee working for you that is working for his ex-employer on the side. It adds revenue maybe, but it helps the employee. He's got a good side gig, but you're a little bit worried that he's taking his eye off the ball while he's at work. That's you. You just switch places with your boss. Okay? Okay.

Yep. And so, you know, you solve all the problems then. That's and so if you're not being unethical is the answer to your question. And no, you're not wrong morally. And the other reason that tells me that is you've been open with your employer. Yeah. You know, here's what I would say. OK, if you were the employer, you would probably if you switch places with your boss, you with me, Jacob?

Yep. You would love it if this young man that's a go-getter walked into your office and said, hey, I hear you loud and clear that you're worried about me taking my eye off the ball over here. I'm going to pledge to you that I put in an extra level of effort to prove against that concern. If you see me doing anything different, would you please come to me immediately? Because I want to honor your concern.

Absolutely. Okay. If you heard that and you were the boss, you would go, I like this kid. Yeah, this guy's got it. Gotcha. Okay. In a world, does it ever make sense to roll that into the company itself and bill my time through them? No. What about taking the percentage of that? Because it's not a product line that your employer has. Now you just created competition. Okay. No, you just changed the product mix of your current employer. He does not offer this service now. Mm-hmm.

And now you rolled it in and now he offers the service. So you've complicated it. No, you just, you got a side gig, take the side gig. And sometimes these guys, some guys, a small business owner, so personally insecure that they're going to just lose their crap in spite of you being honorable. And that's a possibility with your current boss, right? Yeah.

I don't think so, but maybe. Okay, but I mean, it's always a possibility. But I've had a lot of different things where we've had team members, as long as they're not taking money out of the mouths of my children over here, I'm fine with a side gig.

I'm perfectly fine with that with most positions. Now, I'm not fine with Jade doing a side gig because she's got one gig. It's this thing. That's a little different. If you see me doing Amazon Flex, it's a problem. Yeah, the demands on a Ramsey personality as a brand would be different. She'd be lending her brand to someone else and that would not be okay because

Because it's our brand, and we've done it together, she and I and our team. And so that would not be cool. But if one of our guys who does video work wants to do some video work for somebody, as long as they're not in our space, that's their business. They can go do that. I mean, it's not a problem. So just business ethics really take a hot second and really –

reconstruct the other side and step into their body, do a body snatcher thing and go, okay, I'm looking at Jacob through the eyes now of a different person, not trying to defend my position. And if you can walk a mile in their shoes and it still feels cool, you're probably okay. Yeah, I agree. And ask the question, have I done anything so far that's made you feel like I'm not giving 100%? If I do, please let me know immediately. Yeah, 100%.

And I'm pledging to you to honor this relationship by pouring on some extra gas. You know, I think a lot of employers don't like that, though. They don't like somebody... Well, because they get bifurcated. Moonlighting. No, they get bifurcated. They cannot keep from doing their side job while at work, which is stealing. That is, because you're... I'm paying you to work, and you're not working. Instead, you're working on the other stuff that makes you money. Yeah, you can't do that. That's stealing. That's stealing.

Okay, so that's unethical. Yeah, that's right. That's why a lot of people don't do it, because sometimes the person doing the side gig doesn't have the discipline to keep them clearly separated. Remember during COVID when people were just applying for two full-time jobs because it was work from home? Remember when they still do that? Y'all need to stop doing that.

Yeah. I talked to a developer the other day. Oh, gosh. He was telling me he has a lot of friends in the software engineering business. They have three full-time jobs. Oh, my gosh. And they work from home, and they get paid three salaries. And that's just straight-up theft, boys and girls. Man, there's no way. There's no way you can do that. Yeah. You can't work three eight-hour shifts.

There's sleep involved here and food and showering and so forth, hypothetically. And so, yeah, that's just. You would think there'd be an AI program for that, that when you're hired, you can see if somebody's already like working at their job. There's a business idea for someone. You're welcome. I solved it. You know how I solved it? How'd you solve it? We work from work. Oh, there you go. That solved it.

If you're here, we figure you're working. If you're not here, we figure you're not working. And that's kind of how it works. That works. It's got this big, beautiful building. It's got a wonderful cafeteria and a lot of really smart people you can hang out with. Yeah, we work from work.

And then we actually work. Whoa! It helps you keep your life separated. Leadership insights right here, I'm just saying. Deep thoughts from Dave. A new segment. A new segment on the Ramsey Show. It's like a bad Saturday Night Live skit. Oh, my goodness gracious. Yeah. That's a good question, Jacob. And you know what I love about your question? Is that you have the integrity to be concerned about it.

That's good, yes. And that's a good sign. You're going to do well, sir. You're going to do well, young man. Proud of you. This is The Ramsey Show.

Hey, what are you still doing here? You know the rest of the show is happening on the Ramsey Network app, right? So you got to jump over there to continue watching. You can download it for free. Just go to your app store, type in Ramsey Network. It's completely free. And I'll drop a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. So if you're watching on the app, you're in luck. But if you're watching anywhere else, this show is over for you. So jump onto the app and let the fun continue. All right. Go on now. Don't make it weird.

Okay, I got nowhere to go, so you need to go. Okay, bye-bye now. All right, this is getting weird over there, guys. What do we do?