You Can’t Win with Money if You Keep Borrowing It
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Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. From Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Camel, joined by my good friend and Ramsey personality, Jade Warshaw. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. That's the only way to get on this show. I mean, I guess you could email in, but good luck. The pile is high. Take a bribe.

Jade is apparently taking bribes. You can Venmo Jade to get your question to the front of the line. We kid, but it's not a terrible idea. Amanda's going to kick us off in Calgary. What's going on, Amanda? How can we help today? Hi. Hi, guys. How are you doing today? Doing great.

Good. Yeah, I'm calling to see. My father passed away last July. And when I was backpacking about 15 years ago, we created a power of attorney to kind of protect me when I was traveling. As I had one experience where all my stuff got stolen. What I didn't know was that over the last 15 years, he had taken out about $520,000 worth of high interest mortgages. In your name? In my name. Wow. That feels like fraud to me.

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just kind of at first it was one of those things where I just didn't know if I should go to to the courts for that because I was defensive and protecting my father. But since now it's been almost a year and it's not really been cleaned up at all. And I'm kind of not sure what to do financially. Oh, gosh. So have you you have reported it or not yet?

I haven't. No. I think that's the first step, right? You can see this thing on your credit report. So kind of saying this wasn't me. This was my dad. And yeah, the fact he's no longer with us. What are those next steps? Yeah. Sorry. I did speak to one lawyer at the beginning and he said because I had a power of attorney that my dad was legally able to do this on my behalf. That

That's kind of all the legal advice I've been given. Okay. Yeah, so, and I did sign it, but in 2011, I believe. So, yeah, I'm kind of just not sure where to go now with that. Well, the good news is this is secure debt. So there's properties attached to this that you could sell? They all have mortgages on them, yes. But unfortunately, all the evaluations are inflated. So the mortgages are actually worth more than the property. So you're underwater on each of these properties? Yes.

Yes. Oh my gosh. How is that possible? How did the mortgage companies let this happen? Private lenders. So was this some like sketchy back-end deals that he used this money for something nefarious? I'm confused.

I'm not really, I'm not really too sure. It looks like there might've been a big master plan, but unfortunately he, he passed before he could fix it. So I do believe there was a plan, but I'm not sure exactly what that was. But he had mortgages on properties to rebuild a home to, I believe, sell his current home to clear all the debt, but he never made it there. Goodness gracious. What happened to the, did he have any assets when he passed?

He had his personal house. Unfortunately, that was it did flood. And then I wasn't able because I have siblings. So legally, I wasn't able to sell his personal house to pay off my personal debt.

which wasn't my debt, but it was his debt. But legally, it wasn't in his name. Wow. So these mortgage companies are coming to you saying pay up or sell? Yeah, these are all private lenders that actually invested their RRSP. So it doesn't actually show up on my credit at the moment, but they basically took collateral. Wow. Have you pulled your credit report to see if any other debts were taken out in your name or accounts? I have and nothing shows up. Just these private lender mortgages? Yes.

Which I assume have terrible terms. Gotta be. Yeah, 30% interest. Oh, holy moly. Holy smokes. Okay. Oh, gosh. Wow. How upside down? That's the real question. How upside down are you on these? Are you hundreds of thousands?

Give us an example of one of the properties. What's it worth? Oh, for instance, one of them is valued at $75K, and there's a $180,000 mortgage on it. Oh, my word. Yeah, that feels illegal to even issue a mortgage at that point. I mean, if I was in your shoes, obviously you need to work with an attorney. We're just two people on a show, but here's what I at least would do if I was in your shoes.

I would let the mortgage lenders know in writing that, number one, these loans were made without your consent, and it was based on an abuse of the power of attorney authority, and that you want to dispute the validity of the debt.

And then you can ask for, give me copies of the loan application, the signature pages, the notarized power of attorney that was used. I would make them give you everything they have. Yeah. I have all that. My signature was, it was signed on my behalf. And like I said before, they just used my power of attorney and said it was all legal. And you report, have you reported this, like done a police report?

I haven't done a police report yet. No. Well, there was the power of attorney and I'm not a lawyer here. So I'm just asking, was the power of attorney that was granted in case you were unable to make financial decisions, right? Not in every case. My stuff got stolen while I was in New Zealand. Exactly. Kind of hard. Yeah, exactly. So I guess there was some clauses in there that maybe were put down that I didn't really fully understand. Like what? Yeah.

well, just making, there was actually the loan clause and other things like that. So I kind of. Here's the thing. And I hate this for you. And I don't know. I'm just going based off of what you're saying. Unfortunately, it does sound like there was language in this that purported

that puts you on the hook for it. And because of that, because it's a legal document, you might have trouble getting out of this. And I hate that for you. Let's pretend for the sake of the last few minutes of this call, let's pretend you can't get out of it. Let's pretend lawfully you're on the hook for it. Tell us about your financial situation and let's see if we can walk you through a way out of this.

Yeah. Okay. So I actually just finished, I just went through flight school. So actually personally in the last two years took out a $90,000 student loan, which I just finished my training all last week. That loan I took out just, I wasn't making, I make maybe 40K a year part-time because I was in school. So yeah, I really... What will you make now that you've got your license? Yes. Okay.

Oh, I haven't. I just graduated last week, so I haven't actually got a job yet. Okay. When do you see that happening? And when that does happen, what will you be earning?

I would say hopefully in the next few months and maybe up to $60,000 to $100,000, depending. So we've got this. There's a possibility to make $100,000. So you've got the $90,000 of student loans. Have you totaled up all the debt? If you were to sell the properties, what would be the upside down amount for all these properties combined from your dad? Yeah, I would probably still owe about $250,000 to $300,000. Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Okay. And your student loans is the only debt you have. No car loans, no credit cards, nothing like that. No, I have no credit card debt or cars. It's all been paid off. Okay. And it's just you, no kids, significant other. Okay. Okay. So, man, I hate this for you. I mean, I just hate it. But at the same time, if you end up on the hook for this, we want to make sure that you have a plan to get out of it. And it might, do you own your own house?

No, I actually just rent at the moment. Me and my husband were actually hoping to buy last year, but we got kind of stuck in this. Okay. And where's your mom? So I live about 5,000 kilometers on the outlasted side of the country, and they're not together, my parents. Got it. Okay. So it's not like you can call her up and say, hey, look what your husband did. Okay. Okay.

Oh, boy. Unfortunately, I hate to tell you, Amanda, you might have to walk the baby steps on this one. And it's a clear path. It's worked for me. If it makes you feel any better. I paid off $460,000 of debt and it was terrible, but at least it was debt that I racked up. So for you, you're going to have a bitter taste in your mouth if you have to do this.

But the good news is you can do it. I hope you can work with your attorney to work this out. Even if they foreclose on it and they waive your deficiency, that at least might get you out with all of this damage and years of cleaning the mess up. That's a best case scenario. Worst case, it's going to be years of hard work. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Wow, wow, wow.

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Welcome back to the show. 888-825-5225 is the number to call. Hey, are you staying on track with the baby steps? We created a quick quiz so you can check your progress and get a personalized plan just for you. Simply head to the show notes, click on the link titled Are You On Track With The Baby Steps, and complete the quiz. Mike is up next in Philadelphia. What's going on, Mike? Hey, guys. How are you today? Doing well.

How can we help? So, pretty much I just kind of got hit with a baseball bat the other day with my wife telling me we needed to get a divorce. Oh, my goodness. So sorry. We are... No, it's okay. I'm still processing it. How long are you guys married? We are 10 years. You got kids? Two kids, yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

But to say the least, we are in a significant mountain of debt. And that includes our house and credit cards, cars, loans, student loans.

Um, and we just don't see it. I just don't see a light ahead of the tunnel. Um, just trying to figure out, you know, with her wanting a divorce, what is the best scenario? I mean, separate our finances, um,

move forward, trying to pay off the debt and staying in the house until we can get some stuff taken care of. Yeah. I mean, right now I probably, probably now is the time to start separating things. If you haven't already, I'm guessing one of you is moving, moving or has moved out of the house.

Um, no, not yet. No, right. Right. Right now we're still in the house. I mean, I've talked to a few people and people have said like, don't leave the house because I mean, that's at this point in time, that's our greatest asset. We don't, there's so, so much that we put into this house right now. And that's a pretty significant portion of the debt outside of our mortgage. Um,

Is it a HELOC? Oh, personal loans. How much? So the HELOC is for $135,000. Personal loan is $49,000. What about the cars? Cars were at about, I would say, $120,000. Whose is whose? Like how much is yours? How much is hers?

Mine's $70, hers is about $40, so $110. And then how about the credit cards? How much of those? How much in total? Individual or separate? Total for now. Total? We're about $140. Okay. And then finally the student loans. Whose name are those in? Student loans. So...

Most are hers. Some are mine. I think I have about right now about 18 and then she has close to 60 or 70. I didn't see their recent number yet. And the other debt is, did you guys kind of share this? Are both of your names on all this stuff? Are both of your names on the mortgage?

That kind of thing? Both of our names are on the mortgage. I think her name's just on the car. My name's on the car. We do have individual credit cards. Okay. But then there's some that are jointly together. And then, you know, this is your first marriage? It is, yeah. Okay. So, and were you both working or were you a primary breadwinner? Like, tell me more about how that happened. No.

I mean, at this point in time, we're both working. So we total together, we make probably close to $350,000. Okay. And that's probably the most frustrating part because it's like when you hear that number. Yeah, you think you'd be doing better. We should be doing better than what we are. Absolutely. I mean, I'm not, again, I'm not an attorney here, but just based off of what you're saying and what I hear, likely it's just probably going to get split down the middle in most ways. Okay.

That you've been together a long time. Sounds like you were both working. You were both contributing to the income. You were both contributing to the debt. So I would anticipate and I would fight for that sort of a split unless you know of a reason for it to be skewed in one direction or the other.

Our biggest problem is, you know, just she told me that about a week and a half ago. You know, we own our house. We're in our house right now. We have a mortgage on. But just we want to keep the kids in the same school and rent mortgages. Any house at this point in this area that we're going to be paying almost twice the amount. So you're saying for the person who moves out, that's going to be their burden?

Exactly. And it's going to be, I think... I don't think either of you are going to be able to keep this house, though. Yeah, that's George's right. Because they're going to have to refinance, or one of you is going to have to buy each other out. And you don't have the money. With a cash out refi, unless you have the money. And it sounds like you guys don't have any money. No. I mean, our account's pretty much more times than not withdrawn. Like, you know, I just did our monthly budget, and we're at like $20,000 in, $20,000 out a month. Is there any assets anywhere? Do you have any savings, non-retirement anywhere? No.

Not in my retirement, no. Okay. What is in your retirement? I'm just curious. Probably about $40,000. Okay. Okay. What's left on the mortgage? Did I miss that? $460,000. And what's the house worth? About $800,000. Okay. So that's the other problem, too, is that I think this probably contributes as a part of the divorce, but we are in the middle of a huge home renovation. Not anymore, you're not. We can't.

Well, we can't even sell the house as it is. I mean, we have no kitchen right now. It's empty. So you've spent 30, let's see, you spent $35,000 plus, you've spent almost $200,000 and you're still not done with this rental? I, I...

I'm speechless probably as much as you are because I don't understand how we spent so much damn money on this. Is there any hope for this marriage? Is there a chance that this can be resurrected? You guys go through some intensive marriage counseling and try to make this work? No.

I suggested it, we tried, and she was pretty much like, this isn't working. And it was all of a sudden, out of the blue? Or was this a long time coming? Because based on the debt numbers, I'm like, yeah, I could see how this could not be a fun time. Well, I mean, that's... Just the money problems alone. The more frustrating part on top of all of this is four years ago, we went through the Ramsey baby steps. We were debt free. Oh, boy. You accumulated this million dollars of debt in four years? Mm-hmm.

moved into this 1800 year old house and

Yep. So can I, can I, I'm going to step into a territory here. I don't, I don't know that I should, but it's just what I sense. It almost sounds like there was already a lot going on in the marriage and this was kind of a way to start covering it up. Like let's, let's do a project. Let's move into this house. Let's do this. Let's do that. And we find busy. Yeah. We find a lot of times that when, when hard things are happening, people spend money to cover it up and to cope. And it kind of feels like that's what was going on here because it's,

this didn't crop up out of the blue. You know, this sounds like it was a long way coming. There's definitely been some things happening, but it was never to the point where I thought that we would be going down this road. I'm sorry this is happening. So on the income side of the 350, who makes what?

I make about $200. Okay. I'm a nurse. You know, there's always a lot of overtime available. That's good. I mean, at this point in time, I'm making that amount because I'm working 60, 70 hours a week. Yeah. So let's kind of pretend. Let's go through and kind of total this up and go halvesies on it. You said your student loans are the $18 or the $70? $18. Okay. So let's just pretend for a moment that this does get split in half. Okay.

And let's pretend for it. I mean, let's imagine worst case scenario, George, let's pretend she gets the house and she's allotted a certain amount of time before she has to buy you out. Cause a lot of times they'll do that. And let's pretend she's given several years before she has to buy you out. All right. So that kind of means, Hey, you're out here on the street. You've got to get, you're the one who's going to be renting. And you're also on the hook for half of this, this debt here. Let's talk about what that looks like for you. Is that fair? Yeah.

Yeah, that's fine. Okay. So you've got a great job. You've got overtime at your disposal. So if you're to move out, what we would tell you to do is try to find a place that's no more than 25% of your take home. That's thing number one, so that you've actually got your margin to work through whatever debt snowball you're going to have to work through. Because chances are you're going to be on the hook for half of this, right? Yeah.

Yeah, we probably think so. Okay. So you're looking at, I don't know, easily $225,000 you're going to have to pay off. And that means that you're going to have to live on less than you make, which is what we tell everybody. It means you're going to have to increase your income as much as you can. Great way that you can do that. And you're just listing these debts smallest to largest to pay them off when that time comes. I'm sorry. Hang on the line. We're going to send you a link to our divorce checklist on how to prepare for divorce. So sorry you're going through this, Mike.

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you

Our question of the day is brought to you by YRefi. If you've got defaulted private student loans and no one else will work with you, try YRefi. They'll help you explore refinancing options with a low fixed rate and a payment plan based on your ability to pay. Go to YRefi.com slash Ramsey to learn more. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. Yeah. Today's question comes from Rachel in Alaska. She says, how specific should a budget be?

My husband and I have a budget category labeled household that anything we buy for the house ranging from ranging from dish soap to bed frames goes in that category. Should those be separated into different categories such as groceries and house furnishings?

So I, George, I have clear opinions on this and I'm not saying it's my way or the highway. It's just the way I think of it. But, you know, when I teach budgeting, I say that budget should be three things, detailed, realistic, and flexible. And that first category detailed is really what we're talking about here. And I,

I'm a person who kind of likes to know exactly where every dollar is going. And I like to be able to look back and go, how much did we really spend on groceries? How much did we really spend specifically on going to restaurants? How much did I really spend specifically on furnishings for the house? Right. And so with every dollar, it does behoove you to separate these categories out if you're interested in that sort of thing. Now, on the flip side of that, if that

causes some sort of contention or it makes it more frustrating for you. If you have 94 line items in the budget, it might get overwhelming. Yeah, that's right. Especially for the spouse who's not the nerve. That's what I'm saying. So if it causes problems, like pull back a little bit, but to specifically answer your question about this household category, I'll tell you what I do. I have the whole, the whole heading of it is,

I think lifestyle, I think is what it says on mine. And then underneath it, I have a groceries, which is at the grocery store. Then I have a date night, which is specific. And then I have restaurants, which

which is not a date, just restaurants in general. And then underneath that, I do have household items. That's what you said, things like dish soap. And if I go to, you know, HomeGoods or Target, something like that. And then George, I have one that just says Amazon. That's diabolical. Yeah, I did that too. Because I was frustrated trying to parse things out and go, what is that? Well, part of it was for the home. Part of it was over here. So I just went, you know what? Amazon. And then I can look at that and lament over it later. Yeah.

That's truth. Now, my bigger question is, sorry, Jade, my squirrel brain went, how many bed frames are these people buying? Or this is a major issue. Six kids. Do I make a line item just for bed frames? Okay, you buy a bed frame once every few decades, I feel like. So I would just create a sinking fund and go, you know, furniture or bed frame. If it's a one-time purchase, just put it in there in that month's budget. You can delete it from the next month's budget.

it. But as far as dish soap and all that, you can split it up into household essentials maybe for like paper towels and dish soap and all that stuff. You could lump it into groceries if you're buying it all from the same store if it makes it easier for you. But there is a line where you have to go, this isn't really fitting in this category. Let's split it out. And you'll notice those patterns as you keep budgeting. And I would say split

specifically, if it's a category that you do feel like you guys are having a hard time sticking to. So for instance, yeah, food is one that people struggle with. It's the number one budget buster. Or maybe it's something like, I don't know, like kids or entertainment, something that's kind of an overarching target. For a season, it could be a good idea to break it out so you can understand exactly where the problem is. If you break

out right now if you just have on your budget food and that covers anything you eat and you're like, man, why is this thing like messing with our budget? If you break it out, you'll realize, oh, specifically it's DoorDash. And oh, specifically, I noticed when I look at the transactions, every Wednesday we stop because that's the day that the kids have Taekwondo, right? And then you start to see what your habits are. So not saying you have to do that forever, but it could be a way to identify where the trouble zones are. Yeah. And every dollar does let you parse

things out so if you had a hundred dollar grocery bill but half of it was for household essentials half was food you can actually split that up in every dollar and so if you guys want to learn more about that we have free budgeting trainings ongoing this month that our team hosts you'll learn step by step how to make and stick to a budget using every dollar plus you can get your biggest budgeting questions answered in a live q a so spots are limited go sign up for free at every dollar dot

Well done, George. Thank you. Thank you. Shannon is in Durham, North Carolina, up next. How can we help, Shannon? Hey, I hope you're both well. I'm calling because I want to know if we are the exception to the baby steps order. The reason I'm asking is because we do not have a mortgage. We were super blessed to be gifted a home.

Wow. Wow.

you know, $450, we're only paying interest now, but a $450 home payment, you know, instead of a mortgage, I'm kind of wondering if I can bump that more like step six, because a $1,000 emergency fund for a very old special home is just killing us. You know, $3,000 well last year, water heater, braces, brakes, I

I feel like all these things are things that we should be paying for, and it just, it was painful. What's your household income?

90. Okay. Well, I'll give you this. You can put it in Baby Step 6, but not for the reason you're wanting to. Generally, what we would say is if the HELOC is over half your annual income, it can be tackled during Baby Step 6. If it's less than half your income, put it in Baby Step 2 where it fits in the debt snowball. So that's the simplest answer. But what was the HELOC for?

When we first moved into the home, we were actually on a renovation show. Wow. Did they pay for the renovations? We had to match it. So we actually took out $50,000 to match, and then we were surprised by our taxes the next year because it was considered a gift. So then we had to add on more to the HELOC to cover the taxes. So now the total is $65,000. When are you going to be done? When?

Why don't you like, hey, I don't want to take on another penny in debt.

So we'd like to spend the next two years saving up six months of emergency fund just because our home is older. And that'll take about two years. I'm starting to think this home wasn't as much of a blessing as you let it on to be. It is. It is. How many 40-year-olds have no mortgage? It was wonderful. It's just 125 years old. It's really special.

It's a full-time job to keep up with this house and renovate it. Yeah, but I feel like if we had a new home... And if you didn't have a mortgage, why'd you go into all this debt? Why weren't you guys able to cash flow all of these things? That was 10 years ago, and just we're making different priority decisions. Well, it sounds like you're prioritizing the emergency fund over your debt payoff right now, right? How much debt do you have left outside of the HELOC? None. Oh, good. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So the braces, the brakes, you cash flowed all of that?

Yeah, we had to borrow last year from a family member, which also didn't feel good, but it was a lower interest rate, of course. Why are you borrowing? I have a big question. I mean, maybe I'm too dumb to answer this. I don't know. I'm looking at you. I'm like, this lady's got to pay it off. You know, she's been gifted a house. They don't have any other debt. Why are you taking on debt? You have such a beautiful situation. And here you are taking out HELOCs and borrowing from family members when you don't need to.

With a fine income.

And get a little bit more creative about how you solve that. And a lot of times that creativity, in your case especially, is kind of dipping into your cash flow in order to make it happen. Because, like I said, your income is fine. And a lot of these things, they did not come out of the blue. Like something like braces, you kind of know. Like you're looking at, you know, junior's teeth and thinking, okay, this can't be good, right? So you kind of know. And there is...

There's a timeframe on things that sometimes they make you feel like something's more urgent than it is. So I just want you to think about that before you borrow money again. Is this something that's completely necessary? Is it really something that I have to do right now? Like, is it urgent? And is it truly unexpected? Or did I know this was coming and I've just kind of been in denial thinking, oh, I'll just use debt when the time comes. So really filter it through that. I think it'll cause you to make better decisions going forward.

I'd get this HELOC out of your life and don't put a penny more on it and no more excuses. You make 90 grand, your quote unquote mortgage is 450. You can cash flow everything in your life. You got this. This is The Ramsey Show.

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So I'm 24 years old. I'm a dental student here in Lincoln. So when I was eight days old, I had a heart transplant. And I'm married. I'm going to graduate in two years. But my question is to account for not being able to get life insurance just because I've tried multiple different times. And because of that heart transplant, I can't get life insurance. So what percentage of my income would you guys like recommend me

setting aside just to be more prudent about the future and saving money for my family just in case something happens. How old are you today? I'm 24. 24. And are you healthy today?

Yeah, I was diagnosed with just basically a little bit of heart disease last year, but it's not like a death sentence, but it will probably limit my life. So on the other hand, I just want to be prepared for the future just in case that does limit my life. But so far, I'm pretty healthy. Are you married? Yep. And kids? Nope, not yet. Okay. What's your income?

So I'm a dental student, so I don't make any money. My wife is a Spanish teacher here in Lincoln. She makes around $36,000 a year after tax. Okay. Okay. So I'm thinking about what you're thinking about. Do you have any debt or are you guys or do you have a clean slate? Tell me more about that.

We have no debt. I'm going to graduate dental school debt-free. Wow. I have folks that are paying for my dental school, so I'm very grateful and fortunate to be in that situation at least. So I actually think that is one of the best things you could have done to set your family up for success is to avoid debt because now – and George, you can come in and stop me, but now you've got your full income at your disposal at a very young age. And so in that way –

I think that you've set yourself up because, I mean, once you get three to six months saved, you're investing 15% and you're going to do that for a while. And then depending on what you think your income will be, you know, if you can, if I were in your shoes, I'd want to project out, okay, how quickly could I get to 10 to 12 times my income if I start investing? Like how long would that take by me doing 15%? And then I'd want to know how,

how that jives with what my health is. And then if I feel like, okay, now I need something in addition to that, then yeah, I might be searching out other options, but they're going to be expensive. And I almost would rather put that money into additional investing than in one of these policies. That's like a no exam policy. Guaranteed issue life policy, which will only give you a probably 25 or 50 K max. Yeah. I'd rather put that in my own investment than

yeah do some sort of simplified life or some sort of mortgage life insurance i just don't see how it's going to return for you yeah i was just wondering too if i should be like more aggressive um with like my savings and i didn't know what type of accounts like invest in well you will make sense you yeah and you will be naturally because and i i didn't do a good job explaining this so because you're not in debt you're you are in many ways uh

you've excelled through the baby steps faster, right? So you're going to be doing baby step four. At some point, you guys are going to buy a house, but because you don't have any debt, you'll be through that house lickety split. So that's thing one. And then once you get to baby step seven, you can invest whatever amount you want above the 15%. And so you're going to be doing that in your 30s when so many of us are doing that in our 50s because you're so ahead of the game. Does that make sense?

Yeah, thank you. So you've got time to build this. George, that'd be my take on it. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, the goal is for you to become self-insured. And so that's just more important for you now because you can't even get life insurance. So the faster you get through the baby steps, the better. The faster you get a paid-for home, the better. The faster you build up that nest egg, the better. So that if something were to happen to you, your future wife would be okay. Your kids would be okay.

And so I would not be investing more than the 15%. I would keep following the baby steps, but I would have a little more intensity through them than the average person because of your situation to get to baby step seven faster so that you can then stack up, max out retirement, use a taxable brokerage account and stack up even more money in there. And that kind of becomes your own life insurance plan in a sense. And so, yeah, so for even more clarity, I'll say this.

You know, when we talk about baby step six, paying off the house, a lot of times that's taking people, you know, 10, 12 years, that sort of thing. In your case, yeah, I would treat it like a baby step two. And I would kind of just, you know, clip my way through it. And that way, to George's point, you'll be set up to invest way more, way faster. Yeah.

Sure. Thank you. Yeah. I'm hoping the best for you, man. I hope this is something you'll never actually need to use as you build it and wishing you the best for your health and your future. But I love that you're thinking about this stuff of how to make sure that your family's protected. A lot of people don't think about it until it's too late.

And so if y'all, if you're healthy and you can get life insurance, especially if you're young, get it today. Our friends at Zander can help you out. That's the company I have my term life policy through. And here's what you aim for. 10 to 12 times your annual income. And if you have a spouse, 10 to 12 times their annual income. If they're a stay at home spouse, they definitely need a policy. Yeah. Like four to six times. So aim for at least a half million dollar policy.

And it's very affordable, especially if you're young. And even if you're older, it's still going to be a great buy comparatively to whole life insurance, which is a total ripoff. So stick to a level term policy, 10 to 12 times your annual income, 15 to 20 year term is the right choice for most people.

So head to Zander.com and get that taken care of. It doesn't take long to apply and knock it out. And what you said is really good to reinforce. The point is to get to the point of self-insured because a lot of people, they get weirded out by the fact that a term policy has an end term. What happens after 20 years, Jade? Yeah. Then what? You're wealthy. I wasted all that money on a policy. You don't say that when you pay your homeowner's insurance and your house doesn't burn down.

You're thankful that you didn't have to use it. So the point is not that you want to use it. The point is that it's there to protect you in case something happens. So you're transferring the risk to the insurance company because you can't handle that. Okay. Here's a big question. So I know how I feel about this. So we've said the point is to self-insure at some point you could let that policy go. I don't think I'll ever let mine go. I think I just keep renewing. Yeah. No matter the cost. I mean,

a lot of money. I think I just like it on there like as a cherry on top. It's JWI. Jade wants it. Jade wants it. What about you? What does Whitney say? Well, I'll be self-insured then. So that's my personal goal is that the nest egg is enough. Well, of course you will be. Whitney, I think, will be... She'll be fine.

Because she'll be happier when it's gone because she feels like maybe there's less of a chance of me dying if I don't have term life. I don't know. So it's like a juju thing. She doesn't like to think about it whatsoever. That's funny. But I don't want too much. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's true. Because then you're sleeping with one eye open.

You're like, dang, he's worth more dead than alive. I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. So that's interesting. But it's one of the things that comes out of my bank account. I pay it yearly to get the discount because it's me, obviously. I know. And when it comes out, I don't go, oh man, the payment came out. I go, thank goodness. Yes. I'm covered for another year. My family's going to be okay. It's just another way you tell your family you love them. Yes. In the nerdiest way possible. That's right. And you do it today and it's not expensive, especially if you're healthy. That's why George said the younger you are, get it. And

Yes, you will be. Your future self will thank you. And it really, I mean, it's a few hundred bucks a year. Yeah. Compared to whole life, which we've taken these calls and they go, well, Jade, I've been paying $600 a month into this whole life policy. My cousin sold me and it's got a cash value portion that builds. And I'm going, never mix your insurance with investing. Never. Ever. Ever.

If they're trying to sell you on how it can do both, it does both poorly is what happens. That's right. That's right. So term life for insurance, invest on your own through your retirement accounts and you'll be far, far better off. And Xander's the folks we trust to handle that. It's not hard to get it. Like we were on it. So let's just keep talking about it. They have the no medical exam policies now. I believe under a million for a lot of policies or a million or under. Yep. No medical exam needed. And if you do do a medical exam, it's easy. They come to your house. They take a

Take your blood. I lay on my couch. I'm comfortable. I think I did mine at work. It was great. Oh, wow. Yeah, they'll come to the office. That's nice. But let's, I want to divert here for a minute. You're on the clock. You're like, I get my insurance on the clock. I make money in my sleep. I think your Dave can't get mad at that. I'm like, sorry, Dave, get my term life policy. What can you do? But here's another, you know, I say all the time, you know, we walk the baby steps and a lot of people sacrifice. And I say all the time, like being on the baby steps is not an excuse to eat crap. Right. Right.

And here's where it plays out because when it's time to do that medical or it's time to get that insurance, you want to make sure that you haven't been, you know, stopping through the drive-thru and doing the ramen noodles because you want to get the cheapest policy possible. You want to be as healthy as possible. So all of this stuff is intertwined. It all links together. I think I flexed my abs a little bit when they were taking blood just to see if that helped it. I take a deep breath when they take, you know, your blood pressure. I'm like, I am calm. I'm cool. I'm collected.

I needed that A+. I know. I need that A plus rate. I need to save a couple of dollars here. I'm willing to get in shape if it means a discount. You know what I mean? 100%. I'm all for it. Run a couple of miles.

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From Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by bestselling author Jade Warshaw this hour. The number to call is 888-825-5225. Call us up and we'll do our best to help you out with your life and your money. Amy's going to kick us off in Fort Worth, Texas. Amy, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi, thanks for taking my call. Sure, what's going on in your world?

So my husband and I have been stuck in saving up a thousand dollar emergency fund for like three years. Like we save up the funds and then we have an emergency and have to start over. That's a dollar a day. If you could have just kept that away.

How much do you make? So we make, between the two of us right now, we make about $100,000 a year. But we also have an average of eight trips to the emergency room a year. Oh, boy. Okay, that makes more sense. Is it you or the kids? Is this chronic health issues? No.

So I have chronic health issues. My husband has chronic health issues. We have our oldest son has a diagnosed disability and our youngest son has developmental delays. Got it. So you also just like live at the hospital at this point, just rent a room. Yes.

Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. And a parking spot. You should get a sign made just for you guys. I think that's nice of them. Reserve spot for Amy. So you're hitting your out-of-pocket max every year? For the last three years, is that basically what's happening? Yes. So this year for my baby, we hit the out-of-pocket on January 15th. How much is that?

1,300. Okay. And what's the family out-of-pocket max for the entire family? 37. Okay. So that's the magic number right there. So the way I would look at this is...

I've got to have that. You know, when you have chronic illness like this, you have to be prepared for it. And if you have access to a high yield savings account, that's a great place to keep that money. If you don't, I'm just keeping it in a high yield savings account for when I need it. This is not your emergency fund. This is health expenses in the budget. Because the emergency room for you guys is no longer an emergency. It's just a budget line item that's going to happen a few times this month.

So the best you can do to get ahead of it, prepare for it, create a sinking fund where you just go, all right, we're going to put 500 bucks a month away in this account so that we just constantly have at least 500 bucks a month to spend on this stuff. And do you guys have good health insurance? Is it through one of your employers? I do.

Yeah. And my company pays 80% of the premium for us. That's amazing. So that tells me there's more going on here because you're hitting the out-of-pocket max. It's not just the medical stuff that stopped you guys. What else has been going on in your life?

Has there been spending? Are you coping? Fire accidents? We've had home emergencies. We had a slab leak in our house that displaced us for six weeks last year and the insurance, the way the policy was written is they covered all of the refurbishing repairs from the water damage but they wouldn't actually cover the plumbing repair. Okay.

Let's see what else. What'd that cost you? That was five grand that we ended up having to borrow because our emergency fund was only $1,000. So we paid $1,000 and, you know... But you guys are making... Are you guys making six, seven grand a month? What's the take-home pay here? About $7,500. Are you investing? No. No, okay, good. So...

Go ahead, George. I'm just wondering. I just feel like there's some other money leaks happening here because $7,500 a month take home is a great income. So where else is that disappearing to other than emergencies? Do you guys have a big mortgage? Are there a lot of debt payments? Our mortgage currently is one-third of our income. It didn't start out that way, but then we had some property tax snafus that we didn't understand. We also have two car payments. Say that one more time. I said, yeah, that is a piece of the problem.

Yeah. We also have two car payments. We're paying off some student loans and we got sucked into the solar scam, but I kind of want to say scam. So that's where, yeah. How much do those three, the cars, the student loans and the solar cost you every month?

In payments. $2,900. There you go, mama. Okay. I see. I see it. I see the clear picture here. Plus the $2,500 mortgage? $2,800 mortgage. There we go. Plus feeding people and keeping the lights on. Plus the emergencies. It just disappears every month. Yes, and I have...

Yeah, and I have one in diapers and one that's working on being potty trained, but because of the disability, that's taking forever. And then, you know, we've got formula costs and yeah. Okay, so are you staying at home with them?

Are you staying at home? I work from home. Your work from home. And I work from home and take care of our, well, so I take care of our one-year-old. Our three-year-old is in ADA therapy, which my insurance covers most of, but we are still paying about $75 a day for it. Okay. Okay. And what does your husband do for a living? What's his work? So he has an HVAC estimator. Can he do overtime? Yeah.

No, he's a salary exempt. Overtime does nothing. So here I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to say it with a sigh because it's going to make you tired. The only way to get out of this cycle is to do something that is going to infuse your monthly income cycle.

in a major way. Do you see what I'm saying? You need that jolt of B12 into your income so that you can kind of leap over a few of these hurdles quickly so that when they pop up, it's not this thing that's taking you one step forward, two steps back. So the thing that I think is important

your husband, because you're at home with the babies, even though you're working at home, if you can pick up extra hours, more power to you. But if he can, if he can say, hey, for a while on the weekends, I'm going hard in the paint. And you guys get together and say, what is that goal? What do we need extra? Is it $1,500 a month? Is it $1,000 a month? And you guys just lock

lock eyes and lock arms and say, for 12 months, we are kicking it into high gear. And we are going to be ships passing in the night, but we've got to get we got to get this 3700 in the bank. And we've got to make sure that we still have margin left to pay down some of these debts. Tell us about the cars because there might be something there that we can help you get that infusion.

Oh, well, the cars are kind of a messy situation right now because so we had two car payments and then my husband got into a car accident and his car got totaled. But there were multiple cars involved and multiple insurance companies involved. And so they're working on that.

Basically trying to figure out how they can get away without paying for anything. So we are actually effectively right now paying for three cars. Your insurance didn't cover it? It was his fault? So it was not his fault. So we were hoping that maybe the other insurance companies would take responsibility, but they have not. So we just started the process of getting our insurance to cover the cost of it. What are the cars worth that you do have?

- The ones we have are worth 20, somewhere between 20 and 22 grand. - Okay. And what do you owe on them? - That, 'cause we just got them.

But you didn't have to get a $22,000 car. Yeah, and you're going to have some insurance money coming back from this, and you need to use that to go towards the debt since you've already replaced a $20,000 car. And if I were you, I'd try to get out of it and get something cheaper while you still can. Hang on the line. I feel for you, Amy. We're going to send you every dollar premium to help you guys budget every single dollar coming in, and hopefully we can get you through this plan.

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Hey folks, how would winning $5,000 in cash change your life? This month we're giving $5,000 to one grand prize winner and we're giving away a $500 prize every week in May. It takes less than 15 seconds to enter, no purchase is necessary, and you can enter daily to increase your chances of winning. Enter the Ramsey Cash Giveaway until May 31st

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If you're enjoying the show or if you ever have, please subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend. You guys are the best marketing tool we have and we appreciate all of you spreading the word, telling your family, your friends, saying, hey, if you want to get better with your money, you want a better life, check out this show. It means the world. Thank you guys for doing that. Ashley is up next in Atlanta, Georgia. How can we help, Ashley?

Hey, me and my husband are arguing a little bit. We are looking at purchasing a second home slash investment property at the beach. And we have a paid off. Our primary residence is paid off. We don't have intentions of moving. We have another investment property locally that is running in cash flowing. We both have good jobs, make good money. And my husband's viewpoint is we need 100% of the

the proceeds to buy the second home. And my view is we could just put 20% down. So we wanted a third opinion to weigh in on our discussion. Wow. Usually the person calling in is right, but this might be a rare moment where I'm agreeing with husband. A hundred percent. Yeah. Cause you're, well, you're saying, Hey, I want to go into debt for a toy. Essentially this beach house is for you guys as a vacation property.

Yeah, that would be rented as well. Okay. But either way, the investment property you have, that has a mortgage on it as well? No, no, no. We're 100% debt-free. So both properties are debt-free? No debt. Correct. Yeah, we have no debt at all. What's the beach house going to cost? Probably about a million. Okay. And how much do you guys have saved right now that you could use toward this? We have about a hundred. And what's your household income? Two.

Our household income is about $350,000 to $375,000. Amazing. And how much of that could you save each year? If you were like, hey, we're going to do this cash. Here's how much we can set aside. Right now, we're saving $8,000 to $7,000 or $8,000 a month. Okay, so let's say $100,000 a year. And we're maxing out our retirement account. So that is after. That's just cash. Good. After taxes, after everything. Okay.

So at this rate, it would take you nine years of just straight saving to get there. Now, if you invested the money, let's say, hey, in five years, we're going to do this. We're going to invest the money into the market, let it grow for us. You could probably do it in six or seven. Okay. And how old are you two? I'm 30. He's 32. Oh, you guys are doing amazing. Wow.

I thought you were going to be like, well, we're nearing retirement. You worked your butts off. And what I don't want you to do is take out an $800,000, $900,000 mortgage for a toy that may be cash flows, maybe is a headache, maybe you get to use it. I don't know. But it's still a toy at the end of the day. It's a luxury entertainment piece. And if you called in, Dave Ramsey was sitting in the seat. He'd be maybe less kind. I don't know. But he would say you've got to pay cash for it. What do you care more about, having the rental or the beach house?

Like long, long term. You tell me, I'm just trying to, I'm trying to decide if you really wanted this beach house, maybe it's worth you getting out of the rental in order to get it faster. And then spending the time spending that seven years to save up for another rental. You know what I'm saying? Maybe you flip flop them in order of priority. Yeah, that's a decent thought. I just, I like having the one because it does get cash flows very well. Yeah. But you guys also, did you include that in your income?

No. That's what I'm saying. You have a great income. It's not like your lifestyle is dependent on it. But if you're saying, hey, man, I really see us using this beach house and living there and enjoying it, whereas the rental, somebody else is living it and enjoying it. Maybe it is a situation where you get out of one in order to get the other. I don't know. Yeah. It's just a thought. I'm not saying that that's the right move. It's just something to think about.

Yeah, no, that would, the other rental is probably $250, would sell for about $250 pretty easily. What's your net worth as a couple? About $1.3. Okay. Yeah, this beach house is a great dream, but it's a lot of your world to buy a million dollar beach house. That's about your entire net worth.

Yeah, it is. It is. So I think we've done a great job. I think we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. And I think you're going to get there faster than you think if you guys decide to take debt off the table and cash flow this whole thing. And also, you can still have a sweet beach rental that you just rent for a week or two whenever you want to go. You could. You guys have the disposable income to do that. Why not do that to scratch the itch until you can do it the right way? Listen, I'm really...

thinking about this now. Ashley, I think if I woke up tomorrow and I were in your shoes and I was talking to Sam and we were pulling up Zillow and looking at beach houses, I'd be like, okay, if we sold our rental and let's say we pocketed 200,000 from that rental, we throw that in a brokerage, how quickly is that going to multiply in order for us to do the million dollar beach house that we'll get benefit from in a lot faster of a timeframe than you guys starting from scratch throwing money into a brokerage?

I think I'd veer more towards that. And then once we've got the debt-free house, then we buy the beach house debt-free. Now, if we want another rental that is just for somebody else to live in, we can save up and pay cash. That's like the 10-year horizon thing that you can be a little bit more patient on. But yeah, George, how quickly could she do it? I just crunched the numbers, Ashley. Here's the proof. So you said you're 30? Yeah.

30, yes. Okay. So at 35, let's say you take your $100,000, you do what Jade said, you sell the rental, take the $200,000 proceeds from that, add it together in an investment account. That's $300,000. You tracking? Mm-hmm. Then you add $8,000 a month to that. At a 10% rate of return on average over those four years, you would have $1.1 million five years from now in that one account. Yeah.

In five years? Five years. So this is not like a, well, when I'm 60, we'll have this dream. I'm saying you can do this faster. You guys have an incredible income. You don't need the rental income. Whatever you guys are doing full time, that's what's working for you. The rental is just gravy on top. And so I like that idea. If you're real gung ho about this and you want to speed it up, you can sell the rental. And even if you didn't, it's probably only a few years beyond that to get one or two years to do it without selling the rental.

Or should we say my husband also threw out the idea of buying another rental in town that cash flows. But I don't think you're going to pull enough profit to do it faster than what George just and you need to pay cash for that, which would take up a lot of your capital.

Right. So I think to simplify, I don't know that you're trying to be real estate moguls. I might just go, I'm going to park this in an S&P 500 index fund and let it ride for five years and just keep adding to it. That's personally what I would do if this was our goal is to have a beach paid for beach house. Can I ask where it is? Near 38. I was hoping you were going to say that. Beautiful area. Great. Can I ask what part? Is it like Santa Rosa?

Laguna Beach. It's on the end of Panama City right before you get to Santa Rosa. Nice. I love the dream. But guess what? You guys could spend two weeks there and drop five grand and have a great time.

Mm hmm. Yep. So actually, my husband said that before. It's like great minds think alike. I love your husband, by the way. I think he's he's thinking through this and you guys are thinking through this the right way. I can tell your excitement has gotten ahead of the reality of your finances. But the good news is this is not a pipe dream. This is not a 20 years from now. Maybe this is it's going to happen with some intentionality if you guys just buckle down and make a plan. And it sounds like you've already done that.

Okay. Sorry we didn't give you the answer you want. Were you hoping, Ashley, we were just going to be like, go ahead, put 20% down. Your husband's being a fuddy-duddy. Yeah, kind of. But yeah, he is the Dave Ramsey lover. So he told you. He told you to call in. He was like, no, you call them. Let them be the bad guy instead of me. Is that what happened?

No, he said I wouldn't do it. And I was like, I think we can do it. Let's get Dave's opinion. There's a lot of things you can do. There's not much you should do. And so you can go in. You guys will be okay at the end of the day. This is not going to tank your financial world if you did it. But it's going to give you a lot more peace, less regret to do it slower in cash. And you're not worried about trying to cover the spread. And what if you don't want to rent her? What if you realize, you know what? I don't want people messing with my stuff. Man, I could not do that.

Personally, I'm too OCD to have people going through my stuff, sitting on my couch, sleeping on my bed. Their feet in my shower? Exactly. Not happening. It ain't happening, George. I don't want to have to be vetting people's feet before they stay in my place. You find somebody else's hair on your, you know, counter? Burn it down. Burn it down. Not happening.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. It's that time of the show where we get to celebrate someone's debt-free journey. And this special someone today is Jenna. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. Where are you from? I'm from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Awesome. Thanks for coming all the way to do your debt-free scream. How much did you pay off? I paid off $30,000 in seven months. Yay! Let's go. And what was the range of income during that time? It was $48,000 to $58,000.

Awesome. Way to go, Jenna. What do you do for a living? I work on a dairy as a herdsman there. That is rock and roll. A herdsman? Is that the official title? Yep. So I take care of cows and making sure they're healthy and everything. Do you ride horses? I have, but I don't have any. Good. Good. That's how we like it. It's not herdswoman. That's not a... Yeah, herdswoman. I just wanted to make sure. I didn't know. I'm not privy to the lingo in that world. That's a boss job. That's cool. I love it. Okay. What was the 30K in debt?

It was my house. What? This is crazy. Okay, can I ask how old you are? Because you seem very young to have accomplished all of this. I am 21. Wait a second. Wait a minute, Jenna. You can't just speed past that like you didn't just say what you just said. You're just old enough to drink and you already paid off your house? Yep, my goal was to pay it off before I turned 21 and then I did that, so. Congratulations. What's the house worth?

I bought it for $110,000. So then I had over $100,000 in the bank myself. So then I had a $30,000 mortgage. Holy smokes. And then, yeah, $20,000 left. Have you been working since you were like seven? How did you accomplish all of this? I've worked a lot in high school. I've worked a lot of jobs that don't necessarily want to work. She's a herdswoman. You're not scared of work. Yeah, if you're out there...

And Sioux Falls. Wow. Milk and cows. I don't know what else they do to cows. Branding them. Do you do that too? No. Okay, that's good. That part would scare me.

Oh my goodness. So tell us a story. Seven months ago, you had a $30,000 mortgage, which tells me you put down a whole lot on this home when you bought it. Yep. You had 80K in the bank and you went, all right, I'm going to buy this house, a very reasonable house. Yep. So I live in a really small town that's rural. So then like only 600 people in the town. So then that's how the price was low because it's an older home, but in good condition.

And then, yeah, get into the housing market when you can. And that's what I did. Wow. On your own, you did all this. That's incredible. Okay, so seven months ago, what clicked? What got you on this sort of Ramsey plan of like, I'm going to get rid of this mortgage?

Well, I grew up on a dairy farm and then when I was 15, my parents went bankrupt. So we lost everything. We lost our farm, the land, everything. And yeah, ever since then, I knew I'm not going to go through that. And I'm going to set myself up better than what I had to go through. And I won't put myself or my future family through that again. Did that partially cause you to grow up fast? Oh, for sure. Going through that as a kid? For sure. Yep. Wow. Yep.

I'm astounded. I truly am. You know, you said you're in a small town, but you're 21. You're not making small money. I mean, almost $60,000 a year. Yep. I work a lot. I mean, in the egg industry, you don't get paid overtime.

But that's just how it goes. So you just work a lot. Who's making all these egg profits then? That's what I want to know. My dairy farmers. That makes me feel better at least when I go to pay for eggs. You said ag or egg? Egg. Oh, wow. You got to ask in this world. I know. I just wanted to make sure. Okay, this is crazy. So who was rooting for you? I'm sure your parents were on the sideline just baffled at what you've accomplished. Yeah, so I had a lot of my family and my friends were super supportive. I think some people thought I was...

But no, I don't. I've had the same car since I was 15, so I don't really upgrade much. I'm pretty at a cheap stake. Wow. Well, I mean, most people's cars are worth more than your mortgage was. Oh, for sure. That's impressive. Yeah. And you still paid it off at an astounding rate. I mean, you were putting over $4,000 a month on average toward this, making $48,000 to $58,000. How did you do that? Did you sell anything, or was this all like you were living off of stock?

$700 a month and throwing the rest at the mortgage? Well, for the first five months, I had a renter in there. A flood hit our area right after I bought it. So then a ton of people lost their homes. And then I had a family of immigrants that needed a place to stay. So they lived there for five months. So then I charged them cheap rent. So they covered my electric and utility costs. And so I could throw everything at it. You are incredible. Thank you. You're astounding.

I'm so nonchalant. I would be bragging in the streets. She's like, yeah. She's like, yeah, I have some immigrants. I made sure this is amazing. I held the door open for someone and I'm still like, I did a good deed today. Wow. You're incredible, Jenna. This is amazing. What was the hardest part of this journey for you?

Probably just staying on track and not getting sidetracked by everyone else. Like seeing, you know, other people get new cars, you know, fancy clothes, fancy jobs, but they work only 40 hours a week, where I work 50 to 60 hours a week. Just like that kind of stuff and just staying on the track. But the budget really helped. Every dollar, extremely helpful. You are the real deal, you know.

I don't have anything to say other than she's the real, I feel like you've put a lot of people, you're putting a lot of people to shame in a good way right now. Anybody who had excuses, it's like, look at Jenna. I have no excuses. Are you going to loosen up now? Are you going to finally upgrade some things, upgrade the car, enjoy life more? Or are you still going to keep at it?

I'm trying to. It's pretty hard for me to loosen up, but I'm trying. I need people in my life to force me to loosen up like Jade and Ken. I try. I try with George. They're always trying to get my wallet a little looser. I'm hanging on tight. I got skinny jeans for that reason. Harder for money to fall out. So what's the next thing you're going to do now that you're in Baby Step 7 with a paid-for house? At 21. 21.

Well, I want to upgrade the car eventually. And then I just want to do some upgrades to the house, new carping, flooring, just stuff like that. Just little things. And then I want to be able to give generously. So yeah, I love it. And you will. Can you paint us the picture of this, your dream car that you're thinking of?

Oh, I don't really have a dream car. I'm not much of a car person. There we go. I understand that. Do you need like a truck for the farm or like are you going to get a modest sedan? What are we thinking? Just probably like a small SUV or something. I have a niece and nephew I like to take around. So just a little bigger of a car than I do have for their car seats. What a good person. She's car shopping with her niece and nephew in mind. All

All I can say is the gentleman that comes calling later on trying to be Mr. Jenna, he better come correct because you are not playing around. That's all I'm saying. It's hard out there. Yeah, I mean, a town of 600 people, can you throw yourself a parade in the town? How does this work? Not really. Does everyone know you in the area? Yeah, basically everyone knows everyone. Everyone's in everyone's business. So they know you're on this journey.

No, I don't like to broadcast that. Well, you just did. I know. I just want other people to see that they can do it. I will personally get in touch with all 599 other people who live in your town and make them watch this video to celebrate. You are worth celebrating. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We do have a parting gift for you. Two every dollar premium subscriptions. Good for a year. You can use those. You can pass them on to maybe some of the people who said you were weird because they're going to be asking you for advice now.

You're now a financial coach for the entire area. The entire county is now going to be like, what is she doing? Because we got to step up our game.

Are there a lot of, I'm guessing the more rural you get, the less likely they are to go into debt to impress people. It's kind of the opposite. I live in a very ag community where it's very expensive to buy land, very expensive to farm, very expensive to do anything. Oh, so they're all in crippling debt. Probably, yeah. But not necessarily to impress. It's just like, hey, you want the farm equipment? We're going to have to, you know, go into debt for it. And we got to have a nice place.

truck to do it. We're gonna have to go into debt for that. Yep. And you somehow have avoided all of that. I have. I just hate debt. I hate the stress. I hate the feeling it brings to your life. And you

Yeah, you just have one wrong year and everything can be gone. Yeah, well, that money trauma growing up shaped you. Oh, for sure. To see your parents go through that bankruptcy. Now you're using it for good to change your own family tree because you're going to put yourself in such a place where bankruptcy is never going to be on the table. That's the plan. Because you don't owe anyone anything.

Yep. That's beautiful. Do you have dreams or aspirations of kind of like owning your own piece of land and farm one day? Yep, I do. Instead of working for someone else? For sure. I definitely want to buy my own place that's a lot bigger and out of the town. But yeah. I think you'll get there. One day.

By the time you're 23, you have accomplished that. What now? We are so proud of you. Thank you. All right, let's get to the fun part. We've got Jenna from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. $30,000 paid off. That's her mortgage. Did it in seven months, making $48,000 to $58,000 as a herdsman or herdswoman. A herdslady. Count it down, Jenna. Let's hear that debt-free scream. Three, two, one. I'm debt-free!

I think the cow was heard. That was pretty good. That was pretty good. She's impressive. Do you remember us at 21? We were knuckleheads. I'm still a knucklehead, but...

I'm a knucklehead. I just mood on the radio. I'm scared to see her at 41. She might own the entire town. She's made different. She's built different. That's all I can say. God bless. What an inspiration. Good for her. It's possible. You got to make some sacrifices. You got to have some skin in the game, but you can do this stuff. You can become debt free and join us on the stage. We will celebrate you all day long until the cows come home. When you're tackling debt or building wealth,

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Alien abduction insurance? That's a real one. You see the one where the atheists will, to the Christians, will say, hey, we'll take care of your dogs if the rapture happens. If you pay us a fee. Okay, George, aliens, yes or no, real quick. Not the way we think of them. Are there living organisms? That's plausible. Okay. But I'm out on the alien, like the green, you know. Yeah, I got you. Are they smarter than us? I don't know. Who's to say?

Who's to say? What if it's like a raccoon? You know what I mean? Like, they're not that intelligent. I'm done. That's all I have to say about that. All right. Wesley is in Edmonton, Alberta. What's going on, Wesley? How can we help today? Hey, how are you guys doing today? Doing great. So...

My wife and I are starting to get into a business that I used to do for a bunch of years, and I took time off landscaping. And what I had known to work for me at that time was small scale, but she's looking to upscale it and get to a bigger place, and I respect that, but we seem to be having...

some key differences in how we're approaching that. And I just want to get on the same page with my wife on how we can work this together with her professionalism in this. And then my previous experience and what we've done. What does she want to do versus what you want to do? What are the differences? So with what I do, uh, how I was doing it before was a lot of in-person, uh, door knocking, uh, very grindy, uh,

She wants to take it into obviously 2025, where there's a lot more pre booking of these services, a lot more online, that sort of thing, which is just in my experience hasn't worked as well. Well, is it because because that wasn't your level of expertise? Or is it because you tried working with an expert that could help you with your website and your SEO and it still didn't work?

I believe it was more with the former. So I was never skilled at that. I'm much more people oriented in person and she seems to have a lot more of a grasp in the online things. Could you do a combo of both?

That's what I want to do. I just find that she discredits a lot of what I've done into where we are. And I just want to be able to approach that conversation amicably. I understand. I'll be honest. It sounds like there's a little something else underneath this, not just a business thing. I'm not going to get too much into that. But...

I do think that it's probably a combo of both, especially starting out, because the truth is it does take money to get some of those other things off the ground. Do you guys have cash to invest in this? No. Well, that's the thing is when I've been doing this is it's not about a major. This is working towards getting an investment into owning our own equipment. We do a bit of rental working it that way as opposed to.

dropping the thousands of dollars that are needed to have the machines ourselves. So right now, are you going out there making money in the landscape business right now, or this is just you guys talking about revamping this thing? I'm out there. Usually I work a full-time job 10 to 12 hours a day. And then when I'm done my day, I go out and pursue the

People who I've had leads from doing jobs. So both of you are working full-time in other jobs right now? She is not. Okay. Is she at home with kids, or what's she doing? No. No kids. We don't have children. She is just... She was working. She hasn't for about the last, I'd say, six to eight months. And what did she do before? Was she in marketing? Retail. Okay. So...

Okay, here's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing a couple dynamics here. One is you've done this before. And I don't know to what tune I don't know how successful you were, you were not but you have some experience here and you're relying heavily on that. She also is probably like, I got to turn this into something because I'm not working right now. So her motivation is probably like, we got to go fast. We got to do this thing. Let's take it to the website. Let's take it do the SEO stuff. But

and so you're both kind of in your own worlds of what you think needs to happen. I mean, if you called in here, I'm going to tell you, it's probably a combination of both. I wouldn't go into debt to do any of this. And it doesn't sound like you are. And from that perspective, I just ask her, I'd say, Hey, what stops us? Tell me in your mind, what stops us from doing both? Are you, because one of them,

requires me door knocking and you know hitting the pavement and one of them doesn't one of them is really an online play that doesn't require my time so why can't I then still continue to put my extra time into you know enriching that by knocking on doors and talking to people face to face what would she say to that

It's not a negative. I'm sure. No, no, I'm sure that would probably be a lot better than how I've approached it. I'm going to do it like this and you can't stop me. Is that what you're doing? Well, I agree with what she says, but I also say this is where my experience lies. So if we can utilize mine and what I'm doing and get to that point where we're using both

That's where my mindset has been. I think there's a great compromise. I think both paths have validity to them, but I think we need to hear each other instead of just trying to get our point across the line and win the argument. I think both of you are probably guilty of this, right? She's gone, well, you don't understand. You don't know how the internet works, and you're going, well, I've done this stuff for years, and you don't understand. So that's not going to get us anywhere. I think it's wise for you to go first with humility and say, hey,

I feel like I've really screwed the pooch on this one. Can we just reset? Can we create a vision for what this business is going to be together where you have as much input as I do? I think she would be like, oh my gosh, who is this guy? No, that sounds like definitely what I've wanted to say, just not wanting to approach that better. I just, I appreciate the...

Yeah, well, it sounds like she's also on her own journey to finding some purpose. I mean, she wants something to sink her teeth into, and every time she does, you're kind of swatting her away going, hey, this is my territory. I know how to do this. And so I think you need to let her, because you also don't have a lot of time. I mean, I don't know how you're working 10 to 12 hours and doing this on top of that.

With a lot of grit. And I think she doesn't want to see you burn out either, taking it all on your shoulders. Is there a vision to grow this thing? It sounds like she wants to scale it, and you're like, well, no, I know how to do it right. I don't want to delegate. I don't want to hire a team. Is this all on you? No, I definitely want to scale. I just want to do it properly. I know when I had done it before is when you work with people, you have to really –

trust who you're working with and then earn through with them. And that's definitely what I would like to do. I know she has a larger vision in mind than what I've had. When you did it before, what were you earning off of it?

I was doing anywhere between, again, just on my own time, between 100 to 150 a year. Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, that is a real, you were making a real income on that. So I understand why you're kind of leaning on that. And I think you're right there. Again, it is a combination of what both of you are saying. And I think, and George kind of touched on this.

You guys want to accomplish the same thing. You have slightly different ways of going about it. And I think the important thing to remember is that you're on the same team and you're trying to do the same things. And I mean, I know, George, you're married. I'm married. Sometimes you forget that. And it's more about being right than about going, oh, we both want the same thing. I'm going to agree with some of what you're saying and you agree with some of what I'm saying and we'll be good. And you know exactly how to push each other's buttons and you're tempted to push them all the time.

Yeah. So I think we, let's define the vision. Let's define the roles. Let's get on a whiteboard for a weekend and pretend like this is a real business and go, how are we going to dream this thing up? And maybe you go, I'm founder and CEO. You are the COO and CMO. So if it's marketing, that's her job. Yeah. You don't get involved. There you go.

And I think making clear lines of who owns what is going to really help. And I want to send you Dave Ramsey's new book, Build a Business You Love. I think it's going to help you guys map that vision out and help you grow this thing to the place you want it to go. So hang on the line. We'll send that all the way across the border if we can make it through customs. We'll see. Go call every social media company.

Hey, what are you still doing here? You know the rest of the show is happening on the Ramsey Network app, right? So you got to jump over there to continue watching. You can download it for free. Just go to your app store, type in Ramsey Network. It's completely free. And I'll drop a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. So if you're watching on the app, you're in luck. But if you're watching anywhere else, this show is over for you. So jump onto the app and let the fun continue. All right, go on now. Don't make it weird.

Okay, I got nowhere to go, so you need to go. Okay, bye-bye now. All right, this is getting weird over there, guys. What do we do?