S2E9: The After Hours (with Sydney Cole Alexander)
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Are you in a bed and breakfast or like a house or? It's a hotel. It's like a manor that's been turned into a hotel. It's very nice. That's so cool. I went on a hike today around the grounds and I got lost. And I almost had to like call the front desk to ask if someone could come get me. You could call Mr. Milchick. Oh, totally. Yeah.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. And today we're talking about the penultimate episode. I finally get to say penultimate this season. I like that word, penultimate. Me too. It's the second to last. Yeah. Did that word exist before like four years ago? I feel like I'd never heard that word until, I don't know,

I've been using penultimate for at least 20 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I pull it out to impress people. Well, it's really impressive. Well, now it's become more mainstream, I guess, since you're aware of it. So deeply insulting.

Anyway, we're talking about the penultimate episode. Yeah, season two, episode nine, The After Hours, which was written by our favorite brain in a jar, Dan Erickson, and directed by our favorite brain outside of a jar, Uta Bresowitz. It's an exciting episode. We're going to be joined by Sidney Cole Alexander, who plays Lumen's very own Natalie, that face of the

corporation who is very hard to figure out what's going on behind your eyes. She is so good. Yeah. And she voices our hotline voice message. So not only will we talk about what Natalie's been up to this season, but she also helps us answer your hotline questions. That's right. And then after that, Ben and I will go through the episode. And finally, of course, Zach Cherry will be back to predict what's going to happen in next week's finale. You know what?

I have a good feeling about this one. I think he's finally going to get it right. Yeah, I think he will. I mean, he's got to get at least something right. Like a broken clock is correct twice a day? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Consider this your spoiler alert, okay? Make sure to watch the ninth episode of the second season before listening to this. So just take a second right now and turn us off. No matter how difficult that may be. Yeah, but please come back to us. So Ben, what's new? What's going on? It's funny. I feel like it's been a few times that we've had to record the podcast after a...

Nick's loss. Oh, yeah. And it's happened before. And I have to say... That's difficult for you. Yeah. It was a big game last night. And I love our team. And it's just sort of, you know...

This is the situation that we need to deal with now. Granted, no OG Ananobi, no Mitchell Robinson. Right. But I was there at the game. By the way, the great Carl Anthony Towns, all-star fan of the show. Really? Yep. That's so cool. Yes. He and his wife, and he tweeted about it. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And also Precious Achua, who's our strong four, who sometimes plays the five when he has to. So exciting that those guys are into the show. That's great.

And your friend Spike Lee was at the game last night. Oh, he was. Spike Lee was there. He was sort of your role model, right? You wanted to be Spike Lee. I did. I love Spike Lee. And when I was a teenager, I got very into Do the Right Thing in the summer of 89. So when I started my junior year, I was wearing a neck's cap. I had grown a goatee. I had horn-rimmed glasses. That's a good look. Yeah.

And I considered myself an auteur of sorts. Yeah. And then I'm just picturing you doing your dance that you do during the music dance experience. With all that gear on. That's right. Could not be more white. There's nothing, nothing whiter than that dance. When we went to the Knicks game a couple of weeks ago, Spike Lee was there and...

Yeah, it was the night that the season was premiering. Right, it was Friday, January 17th. Yeah. It was so fun because that whole week leading up to the premiere, we had the Grand Central Station thing. We were doing press all together in New York, so it was super fun, and it all kind of culminated on that night. And it felt like some people at the game had already watched the premiere by that time, Friday night. Yeah. It was just such a fun time, and afterwards...

Britt and I shared a ride back to our hotel and we stopped in Times Square because we wanted to get a photo of the Severance ad in Times Square. Right, which is really exciting because like, I mean, the first time around there was an awareness of the show, but this time around there's more people who are seeing it and there's more publicity and there's more...

more ads and stuff. So it's been really fun to see that. That's right. So then Britt and I were taking a photo in Times Square. We wanted to get a photo of that big- The billboards. Yeah. We stopped on the side of the road to try and get a photo of it. And suddenly we heard from behind us, someone going, hey, Severance, that's you up there. Severance. And we were like, what? And we turned around and it was Spike Lee in his car kind of driving by. And he stopped to talk to us.

He's like, that's you guys. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It was amazing. So this is sort of like a full circle moment for you. It was. So I got to finally meet Spike Lee and talk to him about how rad John Turturro is. Right. Was Spike driving his own car or was he being driven? No, he was in the backseat. Okay. So yes, he was driving from the backseat, which is really weird.

You know, part of it that was so funny was his kind of amazement at us standing there and then also being up on the thing. Like he was getting a kick out of that. Like he was a kid. That's like a full on New York moment, right? Completely. Totally. We're in Times Square, Spike Lee, after a Knicks game. It was a big deal. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Sydney Cole Alexander is here. Should we talk to her? Yeah. We are so thrilled to welcome our guest today, the incredible Sydney Cole Alexander, who plays Natalie. She's here with us on the podcast. Sydney, thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

You're such a great, unique character on the show. Natalie is many different things. Do you remember how you got the part when we started? Yes, absolutely. I remember every detail. I got the audition, did the audition, and then I was called in for a callback at the studio. And I remember my manager called and was like, so Ben Stiller is going to be in the room. And I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do? This is crazy. Because, you know, I grew up watching you and...

Sometimes, you know, you get a producer or director session and you have to Google the person to know who they are. But that was not the case for me. And I think at the time I was still getting really nervous during my auditions, like papers would be shaking in my hands. And so I'm waiting to come in and I'm waiting for that feeling to happen. And I didn't.

It didn't happen. And it was weird. I kind of felt like the stars aligned. And I was like, okay, what's happening right now? And I entered and you were so friendly and you were like, oh, you went to LaGuardia High School. And we were chatting about that. And so I did the audition. And I remember I left and I called my boyfriend at the time and I was like, I bombed that audition. I was horrible. There's no way I'm booking this role. Oh, no.

And I think it's because I wasn't as nervous as I normally was. I just didn't know what was happening. It felt unfamiliar and it felt strange. - Interesting. - Yeah. - It's interesting that you didn't feel like you did well, 'cause you were so great. I remember you were so great and so unique and you hadn't really done that much, right? When you got the role. - No, actually I got brought in for the camera test to check out the hair and makeup. And after you were like, okay, you can step out now. And I stood directly in front of a light

And you looked at me and you're like, you're standing in front of a light. And I was like, oh, and I moved to the side. And then you were like, have you done TV before? Yeah.

And I was like, not a lot. And you were like, well, this is great for you. Congratulations. And you're so friendly and welcoming. And I was like, oh, I hope he doesn't fire me. Oh, no. Oh, no. That's nice. It was really exciting because, you know, you were obviously so good. And it was like, oh, this is fun because this is like a new talent that the world is going to see. You know, I remember so many times auditioning.

And being so crazy nervous and so specifically hitting every beat I want to hit and purposefully performing each little thing nervously. And you're right that when you're relaxed, that's when it's over. You feel like nothing happened. Yeah.

And it had to be boring and unspecific and shitty, but you were just relaxed. And that's when it's kind of probably at its best and you don't even realize it. That's such a good point. I think so. Cause it doesn't feel like you're performing, you know? Yeah. And then, um, the first day on set, what was really quick. Cause we just did that news that, um,

little news section. Right, the news story that Mark's watching on TV. So that was really quick. Oh yeah, where you're a talking head on the local news. So we blew through that scene. I think it was like 10, 15 minutes we shot only, which is like so fast. And then when I came back for my first scene scene,

Ben, you had seen my Crest commercial that had come out. And you were like, give me the Crest smile. And I was like, what? And so the smile just kept getting bigger and bigger. And it's so funny because I think especially because I went to performing arts middle school and high school and college and people are like, oh, commercials. I don't want to do commercials. And you really never know. Like that commercial influenced Natalie almost.

on a piece of work that I'm really proud of. So I feel like I'm like, yeah, commercials, you never know. It might be an incredible experience that kind of gives something else a little something. - And Natalie's smile, man. It's like incredible. - Yeah, it's incredible. And I remember that too. And it's also a time when the scenes that we were doing

early on in the show with Cobell and you, and we were still finding it. We were still experimenting with the tone. I mean, there were scenes that we shot a couple of times because we were trying to figure out what

what Cobell should feel like. And you and her, I remember just have that amazing scene where she just kind of comes right up into your face there and you have to just sort of listen to her and feel her energy. And then, you know, also you always have the board in your ear and the scene, you know, the first scene with her where you're, you know, where you put your finger up,

Okay, so the board is conveying pretty strongly that the severance procedure is provenly irreversible. Yes. And that this knowledge should be a given for a person managing a severed floor. Yes, of course. While, of course, getting MTR to their projected numbers by the quarterly deadline in three weeks? Yes, of course. We are quickly rekindling our yield down here with our nimble new refiner.

And for what it's worth. The board has concluded the call. Yes, okay. Thank you. May I? Goodbye, Harmony. It just became kind of iconic, I think, for the show and so specific to the tone of the show. But you really locked in in such a great way to find that sort of veneer, not to use a tooth term, but, you know, the fake whatever. But it's not fake. It's like a very, I think people connect with it because it's so real.

of what it's like to work at a company where people are always on the outside. They're so nice. Yeah, I think so. I think we can use all dental terms with Sydney. And like you're really able to floss right in between the beats. Yeah.

There's no gingivitis in your work at all. But for me, it was fun working on those scenes. I remember talking to you a little bit because I did know at that point it was one of your first experiences. And it was fun to just kind of like do it with you and see how you were really just...

It was almost like I could feel you sort of like just becoming more and more comfortable in your work. And I think, you know, to be new at an experience like that, that's not easy to do. I remember my first roles on TV shows that were smaller than your role and being really nervous because you have to just come in there and perform. And it's just a whole it's a lot. It's a lot.

But you seem to really settle into it and have like an inner sort of confidence that really served the character well. Thank you so much. I was a little nervous because, you know, it's like first day with a larger scene on set with a legend, with Patricia Arquette.

But what was helpful for me was just coming in really, really prepared because I can overthink sometimes when I know I'm prepared. I don't have the room to overthink that much because I'm like, I've done the work. I know that. So now I can kind of just relax and see what the other actors are giving me. And since there's so much talent in this show, it was kind of easy to just look into people's eyes because I'm

It's unlike an audition. I'm not having to imagine what the other person is doing. There's so much coming back toward me to work with. So I think it was like a mix of preparation and then also just being awestruck by all of the hardworking people around me that were just so obviously talented and benevolent. Unlike all of the characters in the show are not all so benevolent. All right. This is a perfect moment to take a quick break. We'll be back right after this.

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So for season two, Natalie really kind of has to shift her focus to Milchick a bit more than Cobell. So how did that change Natalie and what she was doing for you? Oh, I love that question. I think for me, first of all, like I had worked at a company that...

reminds me of Volumin. So I knew what it was like to like be on the receiving end of friendly feedback, but it feels like you're being stabbed in the heart. And so I felt like I kind of understood the world and how people communicate in that way. And so for me, there's a lot of back and forth with Harmony and a lot of like,

threat because she's not following the rules. And that was pretty clear to me. But then when it comes to Milchak, like he's so by the books, especially in season one, and he's such a company man and he's so committed that I felt like,

There was room for Natalie to have a different relationship with this individual. And so because he hasn't questioned me, because he has, he seems to like be more inquisitive about how to go about things. And I didn't feel threatened by him. I felt like I could have a slightly different tone with him than I did with Harmony, who

To me, it's like the closer she gets to the board, the further away I'm getting to the board. And so that creates some tension between us. But Milchick is a different case. Yeah. I mean, it is interesting everybody's sort of ambitions or sort of prerogative working at the company besides being committed to the company and to the ideology of the company, but also just the ambitions that each character has within the company for what they want personally.

And I mean, I think we start to see that in season two, especially in episode three, that scene where Tramiel gets the black cure paintings, the re-canonicalized paintings. And you two both did such great work with that scene. And I remember we all talked about it to really get each person's perspective working on it. How did you approach that scene? Because I thought you both had so much subtext going on in that scene that was...

you know, very, very complicated and layered. So I tried to think about like, so

So we're all people in this world and some things we're conscious of and other things are subconscious. So I tried like as an actor to understand everything that was happening subconsciously. I thought about how interesting it is if two black characters are having a different black experience. And I asked myself like, well, would Natalie choose to kind of lean on her being light-skinned? Like, would she take that path? And I thought the answer was yes.

And so even though there were moments where I felt like sympathy come up, because I think that Natalie is very empathetic. I think that's why she's so great at manipulating because she can feel what people are feeling immediately, but she lacks sympathy. And so when there were moments that where I started to feel sympathetic, I,

I tried to just like push it back down in order to maintain my status in the company because I think that while she may have sympathetic feelings, her drive to maintain as close to the board as she can is more of a priority for her. So what I tried to do is kind of like let those things come up without letting them take over completely because I don't think that

Natalie, at least now in her journey, would be able to do that because this is everything to her. And so I thought about like, okay, well, if Tramiel's gonna approach it this way and I approach it from a different way, I think that that's more interesting to see two people who are struggling with a similar problem, but are approaching it differently and responding to it differently. And you can kind of see their different levels of humanity in a way. - What I also appreciated when we were doing this scene and watching you guys work

was how in the moment you were with each other. So like you come in with like a lot of ideas about subtext and ideas of where you're coming from, but then it felt to me in the best way that the two of you were then just sort of in the moment with each other and reacting to the other person's energy in a way that

made the scene very alive. Yeah, it's fascinating to watch the two of you grapple with this situation without saying a word. Yeah. And then the next scene that I really enjoy is the way you're sort of playing Ricken like a violin. It feels to me like it's just, again, so much interesting subtext. And in a way, it's even more mysterious thing going on there. Whatever talk you guys have been having when Devin walks in,

But surely beer and juleps cannot fill the void left by love. Indeed, only wine can achieve this. But it is famously costly, which is why sadness is among the most recurrent issues facing the poor. Remarkable. So astute. Is it? That's what I was going for. Hi. Oh, my babe. This is Natalie Kaelin from Lumen. Is everything okay?

Oh, yes, God, yes. Natalie just stopped by to discuss my book, actually. Oh, it's a joy to meet you, Devin. You must be so proud. I am. I'm sure you know by now that your husband's work has found its way onto our severed floor. Yeah, do we know how that happened yet? So, we've actually moved beyond that, and we are now discussing the... What was the term you used? -The result. -The result.

That was a really fun scene to shoot as well. Because I remember we went through so many different variations of like, for a lack of a better word, Natalie maybe flirting a little bit. Like how much, how can she be professional? How can she flirt? And like, where is the line? And kind of playing around. And that's one thing that's so wonderful about working with you, Ben, is that you, I feel like you really allow the actors to try different things and go too far and then pull it back.

and change the size of whatever we're doing. And that freedom is just really wonderful. Yeah, I mean, I think it's necessary on this show too, just because we never quite know, you know, where the line is. And we don't do a lot of improvisation, but the two of you in that scene, it was really fun, you know, to watch. And that's the thing, you know, it's just a take. I always remind myself, you know, it's just one take. You can try something, it can be awful.

It doesn't matter. It actually can be helpful sometimes because you're not going to use that one, but it helps get you somewhere else maybe. That's true. So all season we've been asking fans to call in with questions. And as you know, you were kind enough to record the outgoing voicemail message for us. Thank you again. Of course. Now, would you be down to give some Lumen approved answers to some of these questions? For sure. All right. All right. Let's listen to the first one.

Hello, this is Stephanie Lifshitz calling. I'm interested in becoming a severed employee. Previously, I've been able to bring my dog to work with me, and I was wondering if that was a possibility, working on the severed floor. If so, would my dog need to undergo a severed procedure as well? Thank you. Praise Kier.

Wow. Interesting question. Fabulous question. Well, I would have to say that Lumen has a strict policy against bringing in animals unless it is a service animal. And as far as a severance procedure goes...

Yes, the dog would have to be severed and then they could work with the goats and wrangle in all of the goats and be a sheepdog, if you will. That's really the only option. Wow. That's smart. Wow. I'd like my dog to get severed because my dog half the time has issues with me. Really? Something happened. Yeah. But that's another story.

I'd like my dogs to get severed and maybe the severed half of them would be trained and they would do what I say. Misbehaving dogs. Weirdly enough, my cats listen to me pretty well. They even do tricks for treats and they come when I call them. I know. Will you take my dogs for like two weeks? Sure.

teach them how to do that? Are they food motivated? I don't know what motivates them. Every dog is food motivated. Are you more of a dog person or a cat person, Sydney? Oh, I've always been a dog person, but over the pandemic, I fostered three cats and then I somehow ended up with two. Oh, wow.

But I had them when they were two and a half weeks old because they were abandoned. So they're very attached to me. And they even sleep through the night. They drool when I pet them. They run to the door like dogs when I come home from work. I think they're very strange cats. Very dog-like. I know. I love cats. Cats are great. I thought they were fine before this, but now I love cats. So I would say I'm both a cat person and a dog person. I don't think I can choose. All right. Should we listen to the next hotline question? Yes.

Hey, this is Simon calling from Sydney, Australia. And because I'm calling from so far away, I have two quick questions.

First one is about Natalie. I love her board scenes. And I guess I just want to know, is anyone actually giving her any feedback or message through the earpiece? Or is that just her performance? It's brilliant. It's incredible. And I love her face. The second question is around your opening credit scenes. And I've noticed that in some episodes you feature it and some you don't. And I've seen that across other shows lately. I'm interested to know if there's some thinking behind that. Thanks, guys. Brilliant show. Love it.

I mean, first of all, I'm impressed that someone's watching the show in Australia. I know. Is that naive to be impressed? Because that's really exciting. It's far away.

Can I tell you something that's going to blow your mind, Ben? Yeah. I'm in Ireland right now. Oh my God. Wait, what? You're in Ireland? I'm in Ireland. Did you not see my sweater? I was going to comment on your sweater, but I didn't want the listeners to feel left out. I was like, that's a cool sweater. Did they give you that when you got off the plane? Like in Hawaii, you get a lay? No? That's right. They put a sweater on you. A cable knit sweater. So the thing to impress you, I'm in Ireland. They have the show here too. Oh, yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah. Is it, do they dub it with Irish accents? Yes. We all have Irish accents. Incredible. That's a good question though. I think Sydney. Yeah. My Lumen approved answer would be that to question the board's existence is very inappropriate.

And this suspicion that this person seems to have is they might need a wellness check for that. You have to even ask about that. It's a little bit of Simon. I mean, I don't know how they do it in Australia, Simon, but we don't question the board here. No. That's Australian for bored.

Yeah. And I have to say, Sydney, whatever you're doing there, we could watch you listen to the board all day. It's great. And then the little sound effect they put in of the crackle. Yeah. And also the finger. The finger is pretty great. Oh, it's so fun because I'd never do that to anyone in real life. So it's so fun to be able to do it in acting because it's just so condescending. It's just what an experience. Yeah. I remember when we were editing that scene the first time in the first season.

It was just so much fun to watch you hold that and how long we could just watch you listen for so long that we would extend it as long as possible because it was so much fun. Well, what about the opening credits? Opening credits, yeah. I mean, I've heard some people expound on theories about when we do and don't have the opening credits. And it's really something that is a choice that we make based on the episode, really, you know, that we're...

what feels right or not. We kind of did-- in the first season, we didn't have the opening credits in the first episode, so we thought second season, we'll do the same thing. And of course, we have a new opening credit sequence for season two. So that's been fun to see play out. And I hope as the season has gone by, as we get to episode 10 coming up, that some of the little fun little Easter eggs in there have been noticed, which I am sure they have by our incredible audience that sees everything

Isn't it amazing? It's crazy. The Reddit page is insane. I'm so glad I don't know how to use Reddit. I'm so glad I'm old.

All right. Well, thanks for the messages, everybody. Keep them coming, please. And Sydney, thanks so much. It's great to talk to you. Great to see you. So much fun working with you on the show. You're so good in season. So thank you so much. Thank you, Sydney. This has been wonderful. And I'm just honored to be a part of the show. Thank you for having me. All right. It's time for us to take a quick break. When we come back, Ben and I will talk all about episode nine.

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when they sign up today at iXLLearning.com/audio. Visit iXLLearning.com/audio to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. - It's time for us to break down this episode. It starts with our first peak at Helena's daily routine. She goes for a swim and then eats an egg with her dad. Let's listen to some of that. - Oh, a madness day. - Yes. What you ate? - I'll watch.

Man. Yeah. I just have to ask, Ben, did this scene and the eggs gross you out? Well, it actually was inspired by my life because my dad used to like to watch me eat eggs in the morning. Really? No.

I didn't. This is all Dan Erickson, of course. I mean, eggs gross me out. Anytime I see a shot, like when she's splitting the egg with the weird egg splitter. Yeah. I made sure when Uta was shooting and I would just stay far away. You were offset. Yeah.

It looks like literally Ben's nightmare unfolding. Yeah. Also, by the way, it's just interesting that we get to see for the first time the Egan mansion where they live and that they're living together. Yes. Odd. And the swimming routine in the morning. I think there's obviously the undercurrent-

of the drowning that happened in 204. And those shots are really elegantly done by Huda Brushwitz and David Landsenberg, our cinematographer for the episode. But, you know, just the space, seeing a new space, the idea that they live basically very close to Lumen. Yes. Which we see as the camera pulls back. Yes. You see the water tower and...

That was part of like trying to, this world that everybody's in there is sort of in a weird way. It's all kind of connected. And even though it's vast in its reach, it's also kind of very, very small too. Yeah. Also just Helen is like what her life is, what her day to day is. It's really interesting to see her kind of by herself, clearly at least physically,

As an audience member, I'm still reeling from what happened in 204. And clearly she's been kind of forced to go back down there as Helly. And she didn't want to. She wanted to continue faking it.

And she's been kept out. And her dad is clearly disappointed, upset. Something is going on. And he's certainly not being upfront about it. All that to say, this breakfast scene is really potent because you can tell she is wanting something, some communication from him. And he's not giving her anything. Yeah, he's not super warm. No.

No. That's not the word I would use. And then he says it's a momentous day and Mark has other plans. He's playing hooky. Right. Helly's looking for him. Milchick's looking for him. Drummond is looking for him. So we don't actually see what's going on with Mark and Devin necessarily.

until kind of deep into the episode and you start getting this feeling that people are looking for him. Yeah, I think, you know, we know that this is the day that he's getting close to finishing Cold Harbor and you can feel the stress that Milchick is under, calling Drummond, getting the call from Dr. Maurer on the testing floor. Right. There's obviously a lot of dominoes are falling here by you not being there. Right. And Milchick

is tasked with having to get you back. Right. Okay, so let's talk about what's going on with Mr. Milchick. He starts making moves inside Lumen, starting with getting rid of his deputy floor manager, Miss Wong. Let's listen to him breaking this news to her. Unveil. Eustace, today marks the end of your Wintertide Fellowship. Congratulations. Congratulations.

Your bed will be moved from your parents' home to the Gunnel Egan Empathy Center in Svalbard, where you will work to steward global reforms. I thought I'd be finishing the quarter. Empathy awaits, fellow Wong.

empathy awaits this is really interesting what's he doing i think well first of all we know the wintertide fellowship is what cobell yeah was a part of you know she was a wintertide fellow when she was younger and so she's obviously on a track right i guess to go up the corporate ladder there it seems but it's a little bit early so he it seems like he might be making that call you know there's been tension between them yeah but you know it's it's a move i mean

I mean, we've been seeing her take liberties here and there, particularly in conversations with him and stories.

sort of getting her cockles up a little bit with him, maybe inappropriately. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to tell how much of this is him just following protocol and maybe what's underneath, you know, even with smashing the ring toss game, which is part of this ritual. So he says you have to make a material sacrifice. And it's very much, I think, according to protocol and the way that you're supposed to do things,

But also I can't imagine that there's not a little something there inside of him that is taking a little bit of pleasure in seeing her have to smash her game that she's always playing. For sure. And I almost feel like Milchik is just sort of in this episode

taking charge of his own path here at Lumen. And Miss Wong, it's almost like she's just causing a little bit of drag on his aerodynamics of what he's trying to do. Later, he's sort of breaking free a bit and taking the reins a bit with his relationship with...

with Drummond, and here we see him unshackling himself from Ms. Wong. - Yeah, for sure. And then it goes right to the Drummond scene where he basically lets him have it and it's been building up. And for me watching that scene, it's probably the most human that we've seen, Milchik. You wanna listen to that scene? - Yeah, I do. - Devour feculence. It means eat shit, Mr. Drummond.

What did you just say to me? I am manager of the Severed Floor. Which means two things. First, I am owed a measure of respect, even by my superiors. Second, and more obvious, that said floor comprises the whole of my jurisdiction. To put that monosyllabically, it's not my fault what Mark Scout does when he is not at work. It's yours.

So awesome. Go Milchik. Yeah, man. Yeah. It needed to be said. Oh yeah. I feel like people are going to stand up and cheer when they see this moment. Yeah. I mean, it's really a moment where you see him finally, you know, standing up for himself outside of the adherence to being the company man deeper than that, whatever his religious ideology is connected to the company.

Yeah.

of sorts. But, you know, it's what makes this a little more complicated is we're all on board with him as a character, even when he's doing things we don't quite agree with. He's emotionally involving us to the point of rooting for him in a moment like this. Yeah. And I think that's what's interesting about him as a character too. And Tramiel has talked about it, that, you know, Milchick is ambitious within the company. So for him to make this choice, which is to

tell his superior to eat shit. Yeah. Is for him really a big deal. Oh man, totally. And the way that Tramiel says monosyllabically. That's great.

I remember there was one take there where Tramiel, he said monosyllabically. And then he said the rest of the whole line like that. It is not my responsibility. It is yours. And it was one, it was a take we almost used because it was so interesting and weird, but

But ultimately we felt like, you know, go with that one. But he, he just like the fact that he is so brave as an actor just to go for things like that and be so centered in his body contained, contained. And he just, it's all there. You just feel it and he doesn't have to do anything on the outside. Doesn't have to gesticulate or move. And it's just very centered and locked in. And it's always great to watch. Yeah.

Meanwhile, Dylan's relationship with Gretchen reaches a breaking point. She told her husband, Audi Dylan, that she's been meeting with his innie at the visitation suite, and he is not happy about it. So Gretchen decides to call it off with innie Dylan. Let's hear that. Wait, Gretchen?

My life started when you came here. That's not true. You have so much going for you. No, I have nothing else. I have this and I have fucking pencil erasers. I'm sorry, I have to go. Oh, wait, wait. Um, uh, Gretchen Jean? Oh my God. Um, I love you. And I know I'm just an innie, but I love you all the way I do. Gretchen.

I made this for you. I can give you a life, please. I'm so sorry. Gretchen. GRETCHEN!

Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those storylines that it's very unique to the setup of the show. Yeah. The idea that he's in love with this woman that he can't have because his Audi has her. Yeah. And she, of course, is trying to, you know, there's no way that she's going to be able to leave her husband for his inning. Right, right. And...

It just is playing out in a very relatable way in terms of somebody gets involved with somebody else while they're in a committed relationship and find something in them. And then there's also the layer of her seeing in him what's in her husband, but she hasn't seen for a long time. Yeah. And the way that they played these scenes, it's...

It's really, really emotional because it's so real. Even the progress from the first scene with the Audi where, you know, she, I think, is like a stand-up partner in a relationship, says, hey, I kissed this guy. And, you know, she's like, she's just trying to be honest because I think she wants to connect with him. And, of course, Audi Dylan can't take that because he's feeling like, great, my wife kissed another guy. That's great. That makes me feel great. Maybe I'll go quit. Right.

And then to like the flip side,

to see Zach have to play the guy who's just so in love with her, who just, you know, like, why wasn't he happy for us? And then he has this little ring that he's made out of, you know, from MDR and just hats off to Zach and Merritt playing that scene. And Uta Breschowitz, who directed the scene, just, you know, those aren't easy to do, to have to do a proposal out of nowhere. But it's that desperation, that yearning of just wanting, you know, it's this like,

Like the trajectory of where Dylan started out in season one to this guy who just has been exposed to the feeling of love and realizing that everything else just pales in comparison. Yeah. Yeah. Zach is unbelievable in this and Merritt as well on the receiving end of this proposal that she knows is doomed. And that Audi conversation in the kitchen is fascinating for the reasons that

that you said, like there's nowhere else where this conversation could take place except on this show in this particular circumstance. Yeah. And the fact that his reaction is the same as his Audi's reaction, which is I'm going to quit.

Like they both have the same instinct for vastly different reasons. Yeah. I mean, he's heartbroken. He's kind of where Irving was in episode 201. Totally. And then the scene after in the kitchen with Helly.

Where in a way we're seeing Milchik's plan from episode 201, from the first episode of the season, paying off. And that his plan was to split them up, right? To be divisive and to create tension amongst the group. And you see how hurt he is and how mean he is to Helly in that scene because he's so hurt.

So it's really in a way paid off for Milchick. Yeah. He hits her where it hurts the most, which is Mark couldn't tell. That Mark couldn't tell. Right. I think it's a lot that kind of is coming to a head here. Obviously it's the penultimate episode. So there's a lot of storylines that are really starting to ratchet up. And then of course there's Irving and Bert. Yeah. The other sort of tragic relationship in the season at Bert and Irving is

You know, after episode six, where you start to feel that there is this connection between the two of them, even though they're their outies. Yep. You know, there's something there that has come through. But also we learn in this episode that Bert is, in fact, a Lumen operative and has done things. You know, we don't know what, but he says he's taken people places. Yeah, he says he's just a driver. Yeah.

Yeah.

and foreboding to affectionate. - Yeah, yeah. - In like the same sentence. - Yeah, and he gets him a ticket, a ticket in the train station, a ticket out of town, and says they can never see each other again. - Yeah. - Let's listen to that scene. - I've never been loved before. Not really. I have. How does it feel? I don't know. Don't you wanna know how it felt? It's not possible, Bert. It's okay. Just go.

I've never had this. I know. My whole life. I know. I want to. I want to have it. I'm ready.

These two are just heartbreaking. And you find out about Irving here that he's never been in love before. He's never had this romantic love in his life. That's what he's saying to him. Yeah. And then Bert says, well, now you have. And the double meaning of I don't know, because he really doesn't know, but yet he kind of does.

I mean, just listening to that scene. It's always interesting to me on the podcast to listen to these scenes because they have a different feeling. You hear the music, you hear the sound effects, the atmosphere. But for me, listening to that scene, I'm just taken by it. That could be, I mean, Chris Walken and John Turturro, what they do with their voices as actors. That could be a radio play. Totally. You're getting every nuance there.

just in the intonation of their voices. And it's so beautiful to listen to. And yeah, the Bert and Irving love story is very, it's sad. It was so beautiful on the inside and they're ripped apart from each other. And I think the fact that Bert decides to do this for him, it's clear that Bert has wrestled with the things he's done in his life. Yes. And he and Fields have talked about that. And that was almost the purpose of him being severed

was to try to find redemption somehow, right? To find like the innocence in himself. Yeah, yeah. So maybe, I don't know, it's, you know, he's doing something very beautiful because, and he doesn't have to do it.

But maybe part of that is what seeped through from the severed side. I mean, I think these guys have a love for each other. Whether they both consciously can grasp it or not, it's there. And the reality is, Bert says, we can't have this because he knows, I think, the reality of what that would mean with Lumen. And yet he makes this move to

to save this guy. It's interesting how the reach of this company and what it does, it corrupted their relationship on the inside. I mean, it ended their relationship on the inside just as it was starting to bloom. And then on the outside, it's just completely seeping into both of their lives and corrupting anything that may be between them. I would say also just that scene between Bert and Irving at that train station was

We just were looking for a really interesting train station, and we found it up in Utica, New York. Oh, cool. So we all went up to Utica for a couple of days to film that scene. And I was talking to Chris when we were up there, and he said, yeah, I was here when I was in the circus.

As a kid. Really? Yeah. He was literally a circus performer as a kid, in addition to being a child actor. And they played Utica. Wow. That's amazing. Incredible showbiz history that Chris has. But I think it's kind of this beautiful sort of bittersweet ending that we intercut with Miss Wong getting picked up by the shuttle bus and with Dylan going to the elevator to basically say what could possibly be goodbye if

because he's put in his resignation request. So everything is leading to this, you know, the ending of the episode. So Mark and Devin get out to this meeting point out in the middle of nowhere, and we finally have this sort of like Western kind of standoff between-- - It is sort of like that, yeah.

It's cool. It is. Well, you know, it felt pretty momentous, right? That this is like, I mean, you have finally decided you need to go to her. You need her help. I mean, Devin's decided. Mark seems pretty skeptical. I mean, the only time Mark's seen her is outside his house when he yelled at her and she almost ran him over. I think he just doesn't

trust her at all like what what good can come from this basically yeah but there's you're also you have no other option at this no yeah you're right you're forced to have to trust her yeah and of course there's no basis and trust and we should listen to that scene where you guys first talk because you can hear it in your voice hello how are you oh my god so good my wife's being held prisoner at lumen and i just got brain surgery in my basement how have you been

We're allies now. There's no need to... Oh, we're allies now. We're not neighbors anymore? Sorry, I just... I guess I'm confused. Can you... This birthing cabin, you can take us there, right? So we can talk to his, any? Not yet. Even under the cover of dark, it's perilous. We wait for night. Oh, it's perilous. Okay. Okay. Yep. You want us to wait until the evening? We don't even know if he's completed the file yet. I assume no. What file? Cold Harbor.

You're so funny in that scene. The way that you're like, oh yeah, I'm doing great. I just had a brain surgery. I mean, to me, that's also like sort of indicative of what the tone of the show is that we are trying to go forward. She's sort of like speaking, like she's in some sort of spooky, serious movie and you and Devin are like, okay, so cover up night. Okay, great. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, you know, I feel like you guys are kind of being the audience and Cobell is still being Cobell. Yeah. But yet sometimes there's funny stuff that comes from Cobell too. Totally. You know, that's not necessarily self-referential, but like, you know, when she talks about Jack Frost dandruff shampoo or something like that. Yeah.

It's so, it's like people take turns kind of, you know, poking a hole in the reality of the heaviness. That's right. Which is, you know, I think something you as an actor are uniquely good at. And Jen too, the way Jen is just saying like, come on. Yeah. She's like, okay, come on. Just, all right. Great. Yeah. Great. Yeah.

you're going to be super dramatic great but we need to deal with this yeah and you ultimately have to call in right you have to call in to milchick yeah and say i'm not going to come in today and then we see milchick decides to let you have a pass yeah he just sort of lets it go and i

I think it's really interesting because I think he's emboldened to loosen the reins. Right, exactly. But there is a huge pressure to get him in because this is the momentous day and it's not going to happen the way it's supposed to happen if he doesn't come in. So he's really rebuking his marching orders. And it's that moment where he kind of looks at the painting on the wall. And the painting is of a glacier. It's an iceberg. Yeah, it's like an iceberg.

It's a weirdly too small for the wall. When he redecorated Cobell's office, he put in a cool chair, new light, little bar, record player situation too. He had his own little music dance experiences in there. Yeah, sure. And so, yeah. So we're like left then with you saying, okay, let's go. Let's do it. You get in the back of the truck now, like Cobell did in episode 208. Right.

You go out to the birthing cabin. She has to say the password to the guard at the gate. Yeah. This is one of James. Yeah. So we have Devin pretending to be one of James, which is like, what is that? Yeah, I know. It's crazy. And then all of a sudden we're shifted into any Mark's reality as you walk into the birthing cabin.

And now we're like in your sort of disoriented state of like what's going on here. And you're brought upstairs to meet Cobell. Yeah. And we're left with, I guess, another little mini cliffhanger for the finale. It's interesting. What do you think about all the cliffhangers on the show, Adam? Well, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts just about cliffs. But as far as cliffhangers go, you know, I love a cliffhanger. What do you think about the cliffhangers? I don't know.

No, I just think it's fun. I think it's a blast. Yeah. It's a totally different experience watching the cliffhangers when the show is playing once a week than when it's binged. When it's binged, there's no real point to a cliffhanger, is there? Except to get people to watch the next episode. Okay. No, you're right. Yeah.

That's what cliffhangers are. By the way, the word cliffhanger is, I'm just guessing, is somebody hanging off a cliff in like an old serial, Western probably, to feel what's gonna happen next. They want everybody to come back and pay to watch the next one a week later. Is this the most obvious conversation? Probably. But what I think is kind of interesting is the week to week of it, when the show's running the first time, a cliffhanger like that can be much more frustrating than...

than when you're binging, which is just like, oh, good, I gotta watch the next one. Maybe you're frustrated because you don't have time or whatever, but there's a different visceral reaction that the fans have. I love it. I love that it spurs conversation. And I love it as an audience member too. I love a cliffhanger to kind of agonize over.

Right. And hopefully this one has sort of teed up where we're headed for the final episode. I think it has. The ultimate episode. Now, is ultimate what you would say in regards to penultimate? Because I don't think you say ultimate. Ultimate means the best, right? Well, I think penultimate certainly means that the next one has to be the ultimate because pen, the Latin root of pen is what follows definitely is. So penultimate.

- Oh. - Means the, no, I just made that up. - I thought, okay. So we've just gotten word from our producer that ultimate means being or happening at the end of a process final. - Oh, interesting. - Which makes sense, but I've always thought of ultimate as the best, like the one.

Oh, should we listen to Zach's predictions? Oh, man. Yeah. Let's do it. For the next episode? Okay. This is it. Final prediction. Now, is this his final prediction or is he going to predict next week what happens in season three if there is a season three? I think this is his penultimate prediction and next week will be his ultimate prediction for season three. I think you're right.

Hi Adam. Hi Ben. You know, what I always say, A, B are the first two letters of the alphabet and you're the first two people I think of when I think about doing this podcast. Anyway, here we are back to talk about my predictions for the next episode of Severance. Now, my predictions so far, I've been trying to base them off of what's happening in the episode and I haven't really been nailing it. But,

But this show is so detailed. It's so complex. There are so many things going on. I have a feeling I need to be looking behind that. So next time on Severance.

Here we have episode nine, which is the pen ultimate episode of the season. And I think you're trying to tell us something, which is the next episode of the season is going to be all about pens. I think the innies are going to pause what they're doing and

Everyone's going to go to the supply closet and they're going to test out every pen in there until they find the best one. That's right. We got ourselves a pen episode. I hope you all like it. I know you will. And make sure to contact Ben, contact Adam. Let them know what's your favorite brand of pen and what would you write with it if you had to write something but only had 10 seconds.

Wow. We're totally, that makes no sense, but we are totally in sync on the pen thing, the pen ultimate. I think if you did a word cloud of this episode, pen ultimate would be the biggest word in the word cloud. That's right. And I feel like Zach and I actually are in sync on the pen idea. And this will be the ultimate pen episode. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I'm going to miss Zach's predictions because they're all so wrong. Me too. And I feel like I'm going to want him to start predicting things in my life. Yeah. It's like he's so sweet and endearing and totally off base, but like so committed to it. Yeah.

All right, that's it for this episode. The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about Season 2, Episode 10, the finale. It's almost here. Oh my goodness. It's almost over. It's crazy. But it's not over yet. So please stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday for one more week. And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs.

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey. Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderutten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. Thanks for listening. Thank you.