Catherine Herridge: Being Fired From CBS, the Trump v. Biden Debate, and Hunter’s Laptop
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Welcome the tucker carlson show. We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else. They're not sensitive, of course, because we're not gatekeepers.

We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know and do IT honest. Check out all of our content a talker crosson dotcom, here's the episode. So glad you back .

here and so gd.

to see you.

You are not far .

away AR away where either we live near each other. It's up in many places. Um amazing. How are you enjoying your new .

life pretty well? It's a good as spin and adjustment. I've had an energetic few months.

I know you would. I know you would. okay. So I just have to ask you because your I was in television a long time also, but you were in the the news side of television preparing interviews, packages and every day for decades.

And given your extensive knowledge dge of that, i'm just a little bit confused by how the media people in our business form business could look at the last debate with biden trams that I just can leave that they're something wrong with him. He's neurologically compromised or ill or see no or whatever that he's not Operating the way that he used to. How could this be news to people who interviewed him before?

Well, I think this is a real opportunity to gather more data and to take an investigative lands and look at this issue of president biden and his decision to seek real election. We've got some data points already. We have the debate that you've just reference that people were so surprised is to minor.

And we now have the A, B, C, interview and the falt transcript. I think it's a moment where other media organizations who've done interviews with the president over last couple of years could release the full transcript from those interviews. Ah I think that makes sense because we'd have brought her data points assess IT.

Was this a one off, as the White house said? Or were there indications of decline earlier on where they obvious and apparent? Or were they subtlely missed and and if they were obvious, why was IT that they seem to end up on the cutting room floor? Um I think that having this broader dataset for an independent review would really inform the public discussion about the president's decision to stay in the race.

There's a lot of dated look at I mean i've known by and watch biden around by a lot for over thirty years and I remember my reaction in two thousand and nineteen when he decided to run um once again for president for the fourth. I think um I thought that's not the guy I know. I mean he's just completely different and then his sister told different of mine actually were very upset because he's incog tive decline. He's got some theological illness and we don't want him to run for present so I immediately .

x news so you reply that .

at absolutely yeah and then I show the tape like look at the sky and was attacked, of course and ignored so that was five years ago um I wasn't shocked by his performance. The debate especially but then other journalists were they seem to be where they pretending or like what I don't understand how someone who did an interview with them like two years ago wouldn't have been aware that there was something wrong.

I think is an opportunity to provide this broader dataset. So there can be this independent review by the public. A look like, well, let's look at what the transcript show. Do they show someone who is um you know very consistent, very focused, very delivery in their answering a question or does this show someone whose may be struggling to stay on track or lacking? Do we have um while media outlets who conducted interviews with the president should have those transcripts, I mean it's it's not standard to release video outtakes from an interview but you could release the transcript and I say that as who released a transcript of my interview with president trump back in twenty twenty, releasing a transcript I think is about transparency so you can have a broad overview of the interview. I think IT makes sense because there other headlines in the interview that maybe you your news organization is not onna, look at her, say just of separately.

I think you have a tremendous responsibility when you sit down with the president of the united states, probably the ultimate news maker, to ask questions, that of interest to your news, al organization, but also to others, right? And then finally, I think a transcript uh allows you to stand behind the edit that you either post online or that you broadcast, right? Because then the public can see the sections of the interview that you you know condensate or you made edits for clarification right?

So I know that in um I thought about this enough but I know that in two thousand fifteen or two thousand and sixteen the year two times at a notorious board set down a trump and they released a full, apparently unedited transcript which was chaotic his speaking style tends to be a little diversions was a great d yeah it's non linear but you know that's well known. I think he's much Better on camera than he is you know in transfers but but whatever you think of IT, they put that out there. I don't remember in the last four years any news organization that interviewed biden and there have been some releasing a transcript.

the interview to you. You know, I don't I can't recall, but I don't really I haven't gone back and looked at all of them.

But so what would be the so I guess what bothers me is that everyone acts like this was a shock. IT was not a shock to me. I have no special knowledge and some special knowledge and I, which I reveal immediately.

But IT was like, super obvious every time I saw they're being wrong with that guy. How could the journalist be shocked? Well, why don't they just release immediately? They could.

That's what I think makes a lot of sense right now to do that. That's ultimately up to them. But I think IT just goes to transparency. I think IT goes to informing the public discussion right now about the presidents of fitness for office and to seek reelection.

And I think it's also about standing behind your work, right, like you decided to make edits in the process um for for clarity for time, what you know whatever the issue is. And so you can really you can really stand behind that. I think that's that's important.

Again, you're in this business for so long and me too. And at a time, you know printery T P streaming where you have a very small chunk a time, three, five, six minutes for the long ones, and then you you just can use the rest. But now, news organza, you just put the whole thing, I mean, that's what we do.

I do. This interview is not edited in any way. And if let viewers see what they think of carton heard me or whatever, right with that, you know. But so what would be the excuse that, say, N B C or C B S or A B C or fucking anybody would have to not put the full thing online.

Now, I mean, I can't speak to what raw I just my case, I felt that was important to to release a transcribe to allow people to see the work and to also, I mean, it's hard to look at your own transport. You look at IT and you say that question could have been more focused or I should have followed up more or I missed that little piece of news I should have drilled down a little further or I interrupt IT there when I really shouldn't have.

I mean, it's really kind of what's all process that you're looking up, but it's it's about of the rain integrity of the interview. You when you make edits in an interview, um you do IT for clarity. Sometimes you do IT because you have to condense things because you only have a certain amount of time on a broadcast. But it's a real fine line and the balancing act, and you don't want you know seeking clarity and brevity or chancing IT to cross the line into, you know, a clean up on our seven.

Well, that's what IT feels like, though IT does feel like. And not only be two judges, I was telling in a breakfast morning, I edited something out of an interview once with somebody I can't remember ever doing that before since, but, and I would not do that now. But several years ago, someone sits me so bizarre, and an interview that I didn't want to follow up on because I don't want to I know whatever you can talking about and so I asked the editors to take that out just because I didn't think was relevant to the conversation that was weird um so whatever I did that i'll say that I did that but if you're interviewing someone any seems like bizarre to the whole interview and you find yourself trying to cover that up, then maybe you're a liar.

What do I think the I think the instinct when you sit down with the president, the united states, this is you a president, you want them to look their best. And I I understand and that but if there were indicators, and I don't know there were, but if there were indicators that he was in decline or he was really struggling to answer a series of questions, I mean, that's news, right? I mean, that's a news headline.

Well, in the opposite of news is, of course, you know censorship and deception. So if you're hiding that, then you're committing well, a moral crime, but you're also committing an offense against the profession that you chose whose purposes to inform the public of what reality is, right? And you're hiding things rather than exposing them and that I mean that that's pretty clear violation isn't IT.

yeah. I again, I think it's an opportunity to build the data set to Better understand what happened over last couple of years and you know really apply that investigative lands. Know I find IT so hard to take off my life. Investigative reporter, that sort of how I see IT right now. I'm curious i'm genuinely curious to see what those transcripts may reflect.

Well in two thousand and sixteen, um you know N B C went and back into its archives and found an outtake of Donald trump s saying something VGA to Billy bush, the host, and about women and grabbing them in all the stuff. And then they leaked IT today, very whole. I think I remember ing .

exactly I remember that exactly.

But I if i've got wrong, apart of me, they lead to washington post reporter who had been in a college friend of B. C. executive.

And then I became a huge thing that you almost rail trumps campaign. And that's why they did IT, of course. So there is precedent for showing us the outtakes. Do they have an excuse not to show to the buy?

Now I mean, I can't really speak for that. Sorry, just to be a little of I I just would advocate for that. I think that.

It's an issue of such import to the country. And IT really informs the discussion and the discourse surrounding this issue. And IT and IT goes to accountability with the White house. Was IT really a bad night? Or was was there a broader train that had been developing?

Yeah, I mean, I I feel totally qualified to pasta.

but on over see you. Well.

I knew the guy that's not and that's not the guy. Remember who? And I mean that I always never agree to them, but i'm i'm a shallow person so he, so I always kind of like them because he's throw, you know, irish guy throws ARM around, you know, rock your chest, be maybe snipped me.

I don't care. I like sniffing and that's just not the guy on T, V at all, like at all. Every, I mean, I was the conspiracy that I would think he was a body double because it's that different so anyway, are in your long and very good career working in a bunch of different big media, the biggest media lets in the country um did you see people's political, social agenda shape news coverage .

a lot as the sure answer is is is yes. I think it's difficult for people to step back and do what I like to say I do is which is balls and strikes uh, people have their own personal lens through which they see stories. But I think you have to really park that at the front door when you go to work because I think that's when you have the most transparent, credible, authentic journalism.

I agree with that. Do you feel like the composition news room has changed from when you started in the business? IT feels like there was a greater like actual diversity of life experience back then thirty years ago.

Hard to say I started my clarity be seen in london. yes. And that was um an extremely reified atmosphere.

These very experienced people, a lot of the corresponding ets came out of vietnam very, very deep experience. And I was very fortunate to learn in that environment. I.

henning had just .

left london by the time I had arrived. And I I wanted to be a foreign correspondent. You know, when you're that Young, you have ideas like, I like, look so exciting to me.

And some of the correspondence in the office really took me under their wing and taught me how to write a story by looking at the interviews, the strongest elements of the interview, the sound bites. And then they trained me to really sit down and look at the video and identify the strongest video and then the natural sound, which really can be such an important technique. That's right when you're editing a piece together because it's really like this mosaic, the strongest sound, the best video and the natural sound. So this was a really reified environment. Have i've been in in a newspaper like that since I don't think song.

what was the difference of smarter, more serious?

I I just felt with with that cohorts of reporters, they're just you is all about accountability journalism. I mean, to me, if that's part of my DNA and journalism is when you're curious and you seek the facts and then you try and figure out where the box stops, right? And it's not a question of, well, is this party or that party, it's whatever entity is responsible and accountability. Journalism is you like they say, speaking truth to power on both sides of of the air .

to power is the key though. I mean accountability doesn't necessarily mean you know hastings poor rule weight with diabetes. You the weakest, most despise people on our means like you know asking questions about blackrock and the national security council and the people who actually have all the power IT felt to me thirty years ago, like that was implied, like everyone sort of thought that your job was to hold the powerful accountable, not the weakest.

I still feel that way I do too. Yeah do you have that .

in common to um did you see that change?

Um boy, you know I used to say to people that um no technology was supposed to really improve our ability to do journalism. But I sometimes felt that the technologies has never been Better, but the reporters never been worse. And and I don't know why that .

is except is connection. I think .

sometimes what we're missing is that boots on the ground, person to person contact in reporting. Um years ago when I did a journalism degree at columbia, I had this professor dick blood, that was his name, the flood, and he was sort of a legend in new york's city newsrooms. And he used to always say to me, detail matters in good reporting. You know, if you go to a crime scene, you want to count how many bullets halls are in the windshield. So I think there's that kind of on the ground, real traditional investigative feel sometimes that's that's missing in that person to person contact.

I agree with that. Remember going to a merger scene and looking down and was a blood all over my shoes. I didn't put that the story, but remember thinking, wow, no, that actually show other reporting a lot of things when you can .

smell them when you think back to major events like I was in new york on nine eleven and we were down near the world trade center in the days right afterwards, and I I saw someone who was collecting ash off the top of the cars, and at that point we d realize that all of the abandoned cars in downtown manhattan, belge to people who had been killed in the towers.

And I stop this woman, and I asked what he was doing, and he said, my sister was, wasn't the windows on the world at the top of the world trade center? SHE didn't survive, and I wanna have something to bury from my family. So the ash is what i'm collecting.

And that was the moment that I realized that so much of the ash that was spread around the city was really people on the buildings. And that kind of textile field to the reporting is the kind of reporting that really impacts people on days and days with them. And I don't know whether it's the technology or whether it's sort of the immediately of all these deadlines, but the ability to do that um is much harder now than I used to be.

That's really smart. And technology gives you the illusion that all the information is on google, a text away when actually talking to people makes all the difference. So one phenomenon that I noticed, all that I actually didn't notice until I was in middle age.

But 嗯， okay, i'm not going to live to.

I'm not going to matter one hundred and ten. So I guess i've been in the late life now, but there are beat reporters, people who covering federal agencies, particularly in washington, who become captive to those agencies, to their sources, you know, not no literal sense or not held in the baseball in chains, but there when they are sort of puppets of the people they cover. Like I really notice that in taking of one specific person i'm not in a name, but I would just say a female national secure report and washing who and I would watch these you know stories is come on, that's a lie. You know, it's a lie and you're doing number half of the people who feel you these lies if you seen a lot of that.

I think that the dangerous that people become so friendly with the depress offices that working in these big um agencies that they they find IT hard over time to really .

chAllenge them was problem, say we work together for people don't know marriage， one thing I ve always loved about, I don't even know who you vote for and I mean that but I didn't notice that a lot of flags didn't like you. So I was thought that was a good sign .

if you want to have the ability to really Operate outside the rain. I I used to say that um one of the advantages to doing reporting as long as i've done IT, is that you start to build a network of contacts so that that's really where your stories are coming from and that the public affairs office in a major government entity is really the last stop, right? That's where you're trying to get some response.

And I really believe in in giving these offices ample time to respond. I did a story recently where we engage with a the department of the army in the national guard for two weeks. I mean, we really gave them time because we want to understand their position and what had happened in a particular case. Um but sometimes the dangerous that people become too close. That's why I think that makes sense in some cases to really rotate reporters so that you don't spend so long on a certain beat that you start to lose your context of outside of that circle.

That's exactly are you become a tool of of lies which some um panning guard reporters have become, I would say one in particular. But what's the mechanism for for pulling that person back and putting that person on another beat or for fixing that?

I can I listen. I've never been a manager, but that seems to me when I worked overseas, I saw this with some of the british new organization um that they would rotate people into the united stay for a few years and then they would take them back to break so they would be there through an election cycle that say they be there long enough to build context and then they would go back overseas and someone else would come in so you would have a fresh set of ice and ears.

And I think that that makes a lot of sense. IT can be a little frustrating for a reporter because on some beds that takes you a decade or more to really start to build the contacts and the reputation with individuals um but I do think that you have to check yourself. You have to ask yourself um am I really checking IT out the degree um that I need to be? As professor .

blood would says.

that's that's a different .

conversation. Ark, but funny. So if you're paying any attention was going on the world, you probably ask yourself what I do, not just yet for the people who love and family, what would I do if things really went south, either for a short period or a longer period, there was an emergency, how would I respond? Of course, you need food and water.

You need security, something to protect yourself and your loved ones you're probably taken care of all of. But one problem you may not have addressed is, what do you do about medicine? There's a medical problem when there's not readily available medical care.

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um like you spend .

your whole life and I have to at these huge news organizations at and toward the end you know independent journalism, digital journalism is on the rise like what was the view of that from inside the big news organization?

Well I think within uh, big corporate media, uh, there was still a sense that they were sort of the the final word on things yeah or you know of and maybe it's not the best phrase gatekeepers um for information. But after I lost my job in february, I took a couple of months to really educate myself about the marketplace and I was surprised at how much .

the media landscape had really crain where that you can I mean, the news business, but you really don't know what the news business is like.

You're very focus on what you're doing day today and you're not set of looking at the bigger picture. But I took some time to to try and understand how the landscape had really shifted. And I was surprised at how much I had really evolved in the foregone a half years that I was at cbs news.

And I say, this is someone who spent in my entire career working with big corporations, and I and I was grateful for those jobs. I don't want to minimize that. What I see now is that those entities are really shrinking and contracting and the audiences are getting older. And the real explosive growth is with a smaller independent Operations and smaller independent newsrooms.

Why do you think that is though? I mean, if you're someone like matt A E B, who also worked you for rolling stone, you know, big word for a big company, but then when I completely on his own as a and then he creates his own news organization, but just one guy. And if you look at his growth and revenue, it's so much higher than like people with the backing of these huge corporations like White.

How could math I E B get a bigger audience than north Donald? Whoever is hosting this, should I don't even know who's hosting him anymore. But like, how did that happen?

I think I think the public is really hungry for credible, reliable information. I don't think it's more a complicated than that. And i'm not here to sort of take shots. I oh, I just that's what I came away from.

But what's so interesting is like if you have like if you're you know general motors and you have A R sort of monopoly on your on your area and all of some guys stars building cars in his garage and like they're more popular than you, it's kind of an instatement of you isn't IT.

I think the speed at which things love has released surprise people. I mean, when you start to look at the I think we're at an inflection point, you start to look at the numbers. You know, for example, you did some interviews that related to the bind investigation and these were you know ninety million views or you know sometimes higher, but these are big numbers.

And when you compare that to what an evening news broadcast is, you know four million, seven million, six million, I mean, you're just reaching a broader, larger global audience. And I would argue then I don't have the benefit of all the data, but it's also a Younger audience. And IT may be an audience that's really engaged in gathering information because if they are on these platforms, they're checking multiple times a day for for headlines, for new video, for new contents of these are real vacuous consumers of information. I think .

that's all absolutely true. But IT leaves and answer the question, how did this happen? How did you know, penny s.

Upstarts beat, you know, the entrenched monopoly? And I just know in my own life, the only moments of growth that have ever occurred for me, the vivid points in my life have all been those moments from, like, why I really suck, like I really made bad to snow for real, you know, I drink too much. Sure, I got caught lying, or i'm just kind of a rotten person.

I have to change. And I got fired once. For basic, I was just lazy and not taking my jobs s seriously. I stop being lazy, start taking my job. So you noticed really important to alive how much?

Well, there's a forcing function?

yes. Do you need to sees one windy question? Do you see that process playing out at incorporate media?

I I can speak for myself right now. If I lost my job in february.

you just lost IT like you forgot you put IT.

No, I, I, I should lose my time out.

have a few drinks and lost my job. But along with my car keys, myself.

looking around for, you know, my job was terminated, that this was a very public thing.

I lost .

my company health insurance. That was a very big deal for us because we have a son who's a transplant patient. He's a cchr onic medical condition and then I had my record ceased by my employer which was a red line I thought should never have been cross and then I was held in contempt of court so february was a very, very big month for me um but I made a decision, one side educated myself about the marketplace, which I would never have done if there are hadn't been that forcing function that for now I was gonna go independent. I'd had some opportunities from generous opportunities to have go back to a large corporate media outlet. But I decided that I would go independent and I would tell the stories that I couldn't tell before, because I was at a point in my career where I had built up a network of contacts. And I felt, now is the time, if it's not now, then then went .

but I I couldn't get more so since you um brought up and i'm sorry, I mean make fun I know is is traumatic turned upside down in a day um I just think you're onna be some champion but what's talk with that like sure you get hired your fox news where we work together and I really enjoys that thank you.

I enjoys I thought you were really, you're very well behaved. I thought the guy was a good moderating influence .

when we SAT down to I loved IT. But then you laughed and went to cbs news, which is, you know, a huge channel of the story past, in decline, in decline. This is my assessment, because they burn doing, they are supposed to do, which is, like, tell you interesting stuff.

You didn't know when would be honest and brave. You are honest and brave, and you specialized the interesting stories. So I thought, wow, this is so.

This is great. I mean, cbs was smarter than I thought they were, and you did break a bunch of stories. And you were the most memorable person on their air, the one doing the fiercest journalism.

This is, again, my assessment. And then they have cutbacks because their business is fAiling and they fire. You are my way. What did you see that coming? Uh.

I didn't see IT come here.

I didn't .

um IT wasn't a performance issue. I am so proud of the work that we did there, especially the work with veterans. I mean, we really helped be a catalase for legislation that impacted a million veterans and civilians for the Better. yes. I mean, I feel very proud of that, but that's that's their choice of whether I work there or not is not my company but the the seizing of the records was a terrible al red .

line was just, if you don't mind, I know this has been written about, but I just wanted get off record and video of what exactly happened so how how did this unfolds? Like what kind of warning did you have? And what .

happened when I testified to congress about this as well? I was laid let off on a zoo m call. I was told my job was terminated.

And no, not beyond saying that they were. They were making cuts. And I was locked out of my email and locked out of the office. And um a couple of days later, uh, career came to the house with just a couple of boxes of clothing and some books and you know a few awards. And I said we're all my investigative files in my research, in my reporting notes and he said, you're just going to have to talk to human resources about that and I got the union involves seg aftra. I'm not going to go into all the details, but there was a very vigorous ous back in fourth about returning the records.

What were the records like?

Interview notes? You know what I would say is that there were interview notes, a research reporter notes, contact information and um when I had left other major organizations A, B, C and fox IT was completely different. Um there was an understanding that you would go through your materials.

You would take with you what was essentially your reporting materials and you would leave well belonged the company and I knew from people at cbs that that what was happening to me was not standard uh one personal particular said that, uh, when their office was cleaned out, they put in dirty coffee cups and posted notes. I mean, everything came back to them. I think if the union hadn't got involved and there hadn't been a public outcry, I would never have seen those records again. The union really stood up for journalism and I I testified that when the network of water cronkite sees this your reporting information and including confidential source information is an attack, an investigative journalism and I heard from contacts that i've worked with over the years um who helped me to expose government wrongdoing and corruption that they were very concerned that they .

would be identified so you I mean again, I I doubt you will agree with this. I don't know what you really think, but from my perspective, super obviously taking out before the election because you're reporting one hundred thousand and slap top and that was that my take on IT, I was shocked that they fired you. And when I reflected for a moment, I was not shocked at all.

They check out the drudge report before the twenty twenty election. They know whatever lots of people who are in the way i've been taken out before election. So um what do you think do you think your notes were? Um did they go through your notes during the time they .

help them answer that?

Because you don't know where .

I just don't wanna really answer that .

that I that OK of course I yeah you can conclusion um tells about the reporting .

you did public said they haven't but anyway i'll leave at that yeah .

will be kind of attempting to go through interview notes. I'd like to I mean, why would they seize your personal court reporting products? You know IT .

was a very sad episode for me just professionally and personally because I thought that we had done some really tremendous work um on not only a the the laptop um but also um the irs whistleblowers. I mean this was a major story for cbs news. I. Didn't interview along one of my colleagues and I think that really changed the public discussion of the hundred bind investigation in this .

question of whether there was a double standard report. Tell us what the the the tax investigation into hundred and two hundred in the end convicted of completely ridiculous gun this is my personal auditorium zing but a ridiculous gun charge are who cares actually um but there are other potential crimes tables about the tax you have.

I would think about the hundred million cases having two buckets. The first was the gun charges, and then the second is the tax case. I've always felt tax case a much more serious case and has the greatest legal jeopardy for himself and members of his of his family.

I encourage people just to look at the endicott, which is in california, and it's my memory is that it's on the first page or the second page, they referred to him as a lobby st. And that, to me, is an indicator that special council is expLoring whether there are violations of fera, which is the foreign agents registration act. And that, in simple l terms, means that if you're working on behalf of the interests of a foreign, you need to be clear with the U.

S. Government and see to throughout the document is information about his businesses with ukraine, with china, with with others. So to me, that leaves the door open to a supercede ding entitled i'm not saying that's gonna en, but IT certainly to me was an indicator or a flagged that, that was possible.

So um but the tax charges specifically what what are the amount to these .

are felling any tax charges? Um they're pretty significant and a tax case. The chAllenge for any defendant is that these are paper driven cases, are not really witness driven cases.

Um what did you a test to when you sign the forms? Um what did your accountant a test to? And um I think one of the important elements in the cases, how much of this happened after he was sober, right? Because there's a whole window with the tax is where he is really a heavy user or and drug. But as he told the delaware court last year, when the plea deal fell apart, there was a period of time where he became clean. So how many of these alleged bad acts happened during that period versus when he .

was an addict? And that's relevant because sober people have no excuse.

Well, I just goes to your state of mind, right? I think I think mistakes yeah I think I think any jury wants to understand someone who's come through addiction. Um they they want to understand that their sympathy that that's like a daily chAllenge for individuals. And I think that knowing when they were able to get themselves clean, I think helps on inform um their view on the evidence of .

what actually I think I that's right. So what's the .

data to those charges? Ah ah last I been following IT as closely, but in the fall, I think that goes to .

trial is just kind of interest. I mean, this is relevant now, and I don't think it's often referred to in deal reporting on what joe by is going through right now. So ten days ago ish, there was the debate.

People shocked. Demotic donors appear shocked. Some I talk to one really was shock. Didn't know that biden was impaired and there was a push pretty size will push remembers of congress for biden the step outside and he's now issued this letter, which seems to me is writing by his son hunter saying i'm staying in and honor, it's been reported widely, is in the White house, is his fathers chief advice on this and you're sure running like what is this in your saying bidness facing this .

trial you .

probably Better to have your dad be president .

when you well I really can't .

right you don't have to connect those dots um but that's not in a relevant fact that he's facing this is not a real in .

fact and I guess what has my attention is that over the last couple of years there has been such an effort by the White house to distance the president from his son, especially in terms of affairs yes right. But now they're really that joined at the help, apparently.

I don't know that independently, but you the very and IT just did their relationship really suddenly change in that moment or not? Or maybe it's always been like that? I don't know the answer to that.

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which means over to E V helps you Carry large, bulky and the shape items to early 1 feet in ink。 Travel a together, lets drive, visit, shovel that calm to learn more. Well, my impression knowing another by and pretty well as I did and he was always close to his dad. He revealed his .

father and a difference um to being close.

being a body. But I do think if I know for a fact that he was always close to his dad, I was loved his dad um it's one of things I like about them actually but you know it's all these are very different circumstances from what I knew him and so he's facing and you know these are charges that Carry potential jail time, correct?

Yes, the gun and the taxes.

the gun rape. interesting. So why do you think there's been that seems like a kind of a big deal, doesn't think like there's been you reported on IT, but there hasn't even working on them.

And um I guess what I would say is that um I felt very proud at cbs news of the of the of the investigate journals that we did, whether IT with the whistle blow or whether IT was um with a laptop and I went to a lot of effort to get a data from that laptop which had a very clean chain of custody that um i'd learned through my reporting was mirrored what was given to the FBI and I felt that was important to understand the integrity of of the data .

given that that laptop had been described by a bunch of retirement television als as russian pop as fake right.

And we went to a lot of effort to um have IT forensically analyzed by a very repeatable group and a group that was was of no political attachments that was outside the belt way uh group out um out west and really a stand up group, great group. They did a riff c forensic scrub of IT and and they concluded that there nothing had been altered, changed on the of the copy of the data that we had.

Um other journalists got their data through third parties and I think that that probably contaminated the data in some way, but I felt extremely confident um about our data. I I guess what I was we did that story in late twenty twenty two. And you know my reputation is for moving quickly and efficiently through complex investigations. Um the idea that IT took me two years to authenticated that data is just not going foobar. What does .

that mean?

I I think that um and I want to be respected in my former employer. I think that there was an opportunity to lead earlier on that story. I guess I would lead that at that.

Well, I authenticated a day one because there was emails from me on there, and no one knew. I knew hundred burden, so I knew was real, because no one would ever do you. No one would .

ever fail at all. Your type st .

also like I had lived near hundred and that's how I knew him and so um just live in washington as you so it's not that weird if you live in washington like a small city, everyone knows everybody else but I knew that. Nobody knew that I knew hundred about. And so like if you're selling a fake laptop, you wouldn't put emails from like the fox news host on there because it's too weird. So I instantly was real and i'm .

just a little .

bit surprised. That IT took you that long. So you are saying IT didn't actually take you that long. There were road blocks.

I just think my reputation is for moving quickly and your .

concept investigation um yeah did so but he took two two years for that story .

to make care and god because I think IT really .

changed the conversation for sure. Um interesting did you feel could you feel IT at the company that like people who wanted to do this.

you know, i've always tried to be respectful of my formal employers and I testified to congress that I mean, there was tension over the bin reporting, especially when I have turned my lens onto president .

biden didn't like. I'm sorry, it's also, you don't need to. I'm not speak of C, B, S specifically. So corrupt to means just absolutely ridiculous because it's not a reporter jo B2Cover for a p ol itician, right? I'm checking.

Well, you know, I I like to think that I call balls and strikes. People like to talk about one hundred and reporting at cbs, but I was also the reporter who obtained the audiotape of president trump apparently bragging about this iran documents at more go. But they don't talk about that.

You you but i'm saying.

you know, i'm kind of equal opportunity when IT comes to the accountant .

where there any what I know that which is I what i'm saying is your supervisors, whoever they were and you're being very played, I would say, but they should have the same fair minded attitude and you allow reporters to tell the truth， period, no matter who is about I .

think so I think that's what the .

public looking for because they are not delivering C, B, S. 就是 that's all i'm saying。 Like IT finds its own level. People need credible information.

They need to there's such a hunger for IT. Yes, that's uh we just uh did our first investigation uh, on x and we looked at uh, the defense department, specifically the army, the national guards, failure to look after a soldier who had a debilitating hard condition that they blamed on the cover vaccine. This was someone who had no heart issues before they entered the military and we did an independent review of their medical records and the symptoms appeared almost immediately after um being vaccinated nermin amplified after they had that that second those and a fill .

out some other details like how old is this?

She's twenty four years old. Her name is carinus dansie SHE was uh uh soldier in the army national guard and he was on active duty orders when he was diagnosed with this debilitating her condition called pots, which is posture authors static taco cardio syndrome. And what that means is that there's kind of a disconnect between the way your hardest working and your black pressure people can have blackouts, put a lot of stress on your heart, and she's had multiple heart attacks. He is, had a mini stroke, twenty four, and we SAT down with her.

I just days before you've got a pacemaker at twenty four and this story appealed to me for months because SHE had paperwork um we learned um from the army um or rather there was army paperwork that um show that they conceded over time that her heart condition was in the line of duty and IT was especially important and um when we launched that investigation, I felt along with the team that x was probably the only platform that we could have such an authentic and candid and open conversation about the failure of the U. S. Military to take care of its people.

But I just find that crazy. I mean, I have a twenty year old order, makes me emotional thinking about IT. But a twenty five year child, this girl, as a peacemaker, because he followed orders.

So or IT seem that's what cheer says, and that's certainly a credible claim given that happened, a lot of people and everyone knows that. So why would x which is not was not designed as really a news platform? Like why are they the last outlet that would run something like that to me?

I I didn't really fully appreciate this and until I started working independently, but we felt that x was the platform where we could really have an open Candy conversation and we could put out the record so people could analyze them, in fact, check them for themselves to understand the issue and make up their own minds as to whether the army and the national guard had really let this soldier down right? We just put IT all out there for scrutiny. And I say this um because what I heard and dolly from colleagues is that other platforms um that story even though was a story about a failure to take care of uh of of soldiers, could be the amplified on other platforms or or or .

labeled something dead .

but what I can output .

N I don't know if .

they would never run IT, but I just felt that I was a completely legitimate story because I was um IT was a story about action ability a failure of the government to look out for its own people um and then in her particular case, IT took her nineteen months to get the acknowledged that this heart condition was in the line of duty and what that means is that she's eligible for different benefits and and medical care but because there was such a delay to get medical care because there was such a delay to get mental health care SHE told us at one point SHE considered suicide twenty four and anyway, I we heard from other people who believe that they have similar circumstances and I and I say this with some humility. That's what good journalism. Well.

obviously there's no other point to IT like what's the point? I mean, either your Carrying the water for people who are paying you to do that, which is just the definition dishonesty, or you're doing what you're supposed to do. The reason we have first win protections in the first place, which is tell the public what our government is doing with the powerful people who controller life is doing. I, me.

and to the credit of the army and the national guard, we engaged with them over two weeks. I felt that was very important to give them a lot of time to respond to the charges, because they were such serious charges and they engage with us um which I thought was a very positive thing because i'm now working independently, right?

I'm not working for a big corporation and IT is said to me that they understood sort of the power in the impact of what we are doing you know, three million people watch that video or watch that video. A lot of people and, you know, global and Young people and probably a lot of service members as well. So I I want to give them credit for that.

They they engage, they try to answer our questions. Folks who are watching this can decide whether their answers, you know, pass the sniff test. But that's that's part of you ve got .

a very generous spirit and you're trying to give people credit. Words do I will say, I ve always thought just watching from a distance that one of your mean kind of advantages over everybody else is you cared less about, know what the prevAiling view of the group was, and IT didn't bother you to go in a direction that you felt was the right direction. Or to tell the truth, even when I was unpopular, why IT does he feel, chief, like a lot of journalists are, you know, a big deal to them. What colleagues think back to the newsroom.

T am saying, I guess IT IT doesn't matter to me as much. I I don't really have any other sort of explanation for I I would say without getting sort of two personal because I would like to keep the conversation .

procession why I just .

I just if there's anything I T more it's injustice. I hate injustice. I when I see IT and um I just think throughout my career of taken on a lot of stories which are about the little guy they be fighting the big gauci acy or the person who says we had a and and it's not you know it's not adding up.

And um so it's that's really what drives me in the end is that sense of there's injustice and there's an opportunity. In the case of this twenty four old, I think that we've seen some incremental uh, improvements to her situation. I hope that her records issue with the military is resolved quickly because at twenty four .

she's really given up everything dead.

Um but it's not destroy was destroy was not a moratorium on the vaccine right or the Mandate the story was always about the alleged failure of the military to take care of its people because that's that's the sacred pledge that you leave no one behind.

I agree, but I would say that pledge lies to the entire country. The government exists only to serve us that it's only it's it's only job. We pay for IT.

We own IT. This is a democracy. And so if they are hurting people and don't care and that's the the gravest crime commit, that's my personal opinion. I thought that was everybody y's opinion currently is not really .

yeah apparently not right.

I'm not in the military and i'm never gonna in the military, but an american citizen. And if my government hurts me, I think it's just obvious that they should apologize and try to make a Better but um but they don't so you're saying we've such a someone experience you like, you're in the little world.

What you think is a much bigger world than that actually is I speak for myself and then you get ejected from that world and you're like chrome ked, but then you thank god for IT because ow there's fresher er and sunlight. And then you look around and you realized that all these smaller organizations or individuals are having like a huge effect and you don't even know that it's amazing. But one and I just love the whole thing, but one of the problems is it's pretty easy. It's pretty hard to take down like a big news organza, because they have like a well staff legal department, pretty easy to take down an individual with law fare.

I mean.

right, this is a concern.

Yeah one of the things i'd like to talk about is this the present press act as a piece of legislation, uh that's in the senate right now IT passed unanimously um in the house and the process is a federal shield law for reporters that would allow them to produce confidential sources um and there are just very few exceptions, what I would call common sense exceptions for imminent violence or threats to critical infrastructure and i've said that I think the protection of confidential sources is the hill to die on because if if you don't have that ability, a credible assurance that you are going to protect your source as an investigator reporter, your toolbox is empty when you really have nothing to offer. And you know and others, I can't say a lot about IT, but i'm in the middle of of a major case where I was asked to disclose confidential source information.

I refused to disclose .

IT was as part of a privacy act lawsuit um i'm a witness in the case and um so this is a .

private energy.

There's a plaintive h they're suing government agencies, including the FBI, and they want to understand the source resources for my reporting, a series of stories, a national security stories in twenty seventeen.

I M in chinese.

american scientist, and she's suing the FBI, the justice department, defense department, I believe, homeland and securities as well. They are like four or five different agencies and um the the plenty of wants to understand how I got information about her in her. You're not being sued. I'm i'm just to witness it's just .

the same thing happened to me. They grabbed my text message just uh was not named in the suit, but. Judge said I had to divulge so they're trying to violate among other things are privacy but also the they're trying to violate the the protection that we all assumed was real um that conference .

sial sources had look, I I don't want to do I want to be very careful because I don't want to litigate you the case the case here um but the issue is uh the the force disclosure of confidential source information and so that .

means you as a reporter talk to people. They tell you stuff on the condition of anonymity. I'm not tell anybody that we spoke, but tell me the truth about what you know.

correct? right? And this is something that journalists with .

constantly if you don't have that credible pledge of confidential as an investigative journalist.

you really have very little off already. Well, no, but that's just that's your life know you're talking to people constantly about stuff and but everyone knows you're not onna rat them out, right?

The question is in the appeal court right now, washington and uh the question is when when the need for that information overrides the first amendment and the reporters privilege? Um I haven't lost a night's sleep over my decision to protect confidential sources, but that doesn't mean I don't feel a tremendous burden responsibility .

with this cause the burden well.

it's so much bigger than just my individual case. It's it's not just about me. It's not about just a single series of stories. It's not about one media outlet. Whatever the course decided and I have respect for the legal process and what's unfolding, whatever they decide is going to impact every working journalists in the united states yeah and the public and for the next generation and that's why you know the react is an opportunity to reach strength, then press freedom and press protections at a time. As as you mentioned that there's this explosion of smaller and independent outlets and they can't you know they can't stand the legal and financial pressure.

real pressures like you.

What is that? Well well right now i'm facing fines at eight hundred dollars a day for refusing to disclose that has been put on hold and i'm grateful for that pending the appeal um in in the courtroom washington um but then there's the cost of litigating a case like this um this is not an inexpensive thing to do. I've been fortunate to have fox news which is mounted a very degress defense excEllent .

legality and .

that's correct I fox at the time um but not every outlet can afford to do that. And so having the react would prevent them from sort of being out of legally struggled in the future and and losing that pledge of confidential. And if you believe, as I do, that an informed electric and an engaged reporting core is fundamentally to democracy, you're gonna to see this opportunity seized and and really realized.

If you think the public is the right to know what its government is doing, which is kind of the bottom line as far as i'm concerned. And I think the public does public is no idea what the government doing. I can say that actually no clue they no. And um then you need to make sure the mechanisms exist for them to get that information correct.

I me yes. So I I testified to congress about this earlier in the year, and I just feel like we're at an inflection point. There's just this incredible shift in the media landscape.

There's this sort of exciting, diverse group of new voices doing some Milly, tremendous journalism. So this is the moment to me where you want to offer these kinds of protections for confidential source protection at the federal level. So that is consistent with what existed in almost every state in this country. And I think it's an acknowledged of the role that journalism should play and can play in the democratic process.

Yeah, can you know if you make IT too expensive to tell the truth? Nobody will. And that kind of a rearm, you can take people out with lawsuits if you're some well funded political group, particularly on the left. Theyve been doing us at scale. You just you shut people up by bankrupting them.

Well, one of our kids um as we were really um wrestling with the sap and how that was all going to unfold and there's a certain amount of um you know you can't keep your kids off their phones, right? They're saying sort of some of this play out. And one of our songs asked me, the mom, you're gonna to jail.

Are we gonna lose the house? Are we gonna SE everything that you've worked for? And I wanted to tell him that in this country where we say we, that I could get a little choked up when I think about IT.

But you know, this country where we save, we value democracy and we value a vigorous press that IT was impossible but I couldn't offer him that assurance. And um the best part of the story is how we ended IT. He said, mom, do what IT takes.

I've got your back and I thought if a teenager understands the importance of this pledge of confidential and understands the importance that journalism plays in a democracy, than certainly congress can get this legislation passed right now it's in the senate. Chuck summa has said he would like to get IT to the president's desk um this year and I hope they'll be movement before the August recess. Social media, great.

they're important, are the main way we communicate with each other there, where politics happen in this country. But one of the problems with social media is that the rules change. The people in charge don't want you to say something, they don't tell you that.

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IT you know um I think there are some republican members who have hesitations a about IT um what I would say is that .

what they hate .

the media. I can speak to the the media because .

they're a liar so you want to protect the truth tellers. I guess I would be my view of I mean.

I think the important thing to understand is that this is legislation that would do so much to protect the smaller and independent outlets where you have this diversity of voices period on both sides of the are left and on the right. And it's a moment when we can qualify those protections. And it's a moment when we can say, you know, we talk about the importance of the first of moment, we talk about the importance of press freedom, and now we can actually really do something concrete to protect them.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I I do think the one thing that we can do is just not obey. I mean, I was told to give up my text messages.

I never had done that. I knew I had done that. I should just still are going to three, you, once I go hand kind of my house treat.

And I never shot on that. A weak moment. I did IT.

I I mean, clearly you're facing this right now. I caved. You have a plus. You, but I mean, what are you going to do with this .

if they command you to do IT? I mean, I said cross that bridge. And when we get to that, in the meantime, i've been so encouraged by how many media outlets have really filed briefs and supportive of our position that they understand that this case that's gona impact everyone is working today, and that's encouraging.

Does IT ever strike? You have small 衣？ Our world has become in to see you. You work for thirty years or whatever.

More to be more.

Not I, but I am not at IT a long time and you become you know the most, I argue, famous investig journalist in the, I don't well, I say that certainly top two three I mean, we are okay. But you you'd think that every news org ization like, oh my gosh, Catherine is free, let's hire her but you're independent on next like what does that say about the landscape? But just it's amazing what .

is a personal choice.

But really, I mean, nbc in a Normal world would be like gay. We know pay three million years of IT do what you do, but they didn't. So like is, is that a little strange?

I think it's an indicator of how the marketplace is really shifted. Yeah, I think I think that's the biggest indicator to me. I didn't really understand how much sort of the earth had to move beneath me in the last four and a half years.

And when you start to look at the numbers, you see that um these big corporate out outlets are not essentially the gatekeepers on the information anymore. Yeah that that much larger on on these platforms. And I I really believe in my heart that there is a place for investigative journalism on platforms like x and and other platforms.

People are just hungry for IT and that's the investigation we did. Um as I said, about three million people. I mean, that's a good .

help number. Do you don't seem angry though?

No, I I I don't feel angry really is not a dering .

ball of region side to our employers.

No, I I look, if they don't want me to work, they don't want me to work there. I know the work was IT was not a performance issue. I heard from many of my colleagues .

who were very, very sad. I heard from them.

Yes, but that's, but that's not my call in the end. But the season of the records was a completely different thing. That was something that I was gonna to the mad because I felt so strongly about.

Explain why they store your stuff.

Well, in a letter to congress, they argued that they had not seized the materials. I think the language they used was that they had tried to secure and protect them um which I left me a little speed less a because IT was diminishing reporter materials to work product and to say that what had happened wasn't effort to seize or protect my materials was I mean IT just show that some executives had a very difficult relationship with the facts.

That's kind of the problem for news executives that .

right I don't think it's a good place to be to be sitting.

Let's a very restrained .

way but IT.

I am restrained. But if you have .

liars in charge .

of know the truth telling business, I know another certain businesses you ort of expect that you know time share sales or whatever use cars. But like if your job is to tell the truth and the people .

in charge just like a lie for fun, I said, was very sad pointing um to see that see that happen. And I heard from people I used to work within, they were really sad. And by IT as well.

既 i got get the idea here， I can't work for these .

people anymore, don't conversation.

But do you feel like people who remain IT in corporate media jobs, our desperate ticket out? Is that your sense? I think there's .

a lot of anxiety. yeah. I think people are starting to feel the serve, the york move beneath them. You just have to look at the the ratings and the numbers to understand sort for a lack of a Better turn .

the all the order kind disappeared.

But I know I think this election cycle will be um pivotal if these town hall go ahead on X I. He gets the partnership with news nation. I think that the numbers on those town halls are gonna be just mindblowing in in the true sense of of the word and it's gonna be glow and ah I forget I think elan mosque, a Linda carreno posted on x with the numbers were with the presidential debate. And I mean, when you looked at how many people washed IT on, you know, traditional outlets verses the kind of volume and engagement on on that platform. I mean, IT was many multiple times larger .

or the entire political conversation the united states plays out on acx period. I can't speak for, you know sports, entertainment, culture among the many different verticals in any civilization, but the political conversation takes me. That period does not take place on any T, V, channel or a new newspaper is IT.

It's fair, I do I think and I think it's exciting to actually to to see IT um a little bit unleashed. It's not always pleasant, it's not always easy, but it's it's sort of unleashed an evolving and engaging and it's bringing in different points of you. And I think that's what civil discourse is about.

Did you read IT before?

I did, but I when I was, when I worked a fox, I I was not on what was twitter at that time. And then when I went to C, B, S, I, I joined because I thought I would be a good way for people to find me. What role .

do you think x is playing in .

the media landscape right now?

Wow.

asking me a experience. Um when I had an investigation that I thought was a sensitive topic, I felt t very component that I could put IT on x and there could be a really engaging canada authentic discussion about IT and I thought that was important because seems to be an undercover red issue. This is the the soldier's story yeah and um I was really grateful for that and I I I would commend elon mosque in in that way I kind of understood IT.

And then when I actually went to do what I had a different and it's a larger appreciation for IT that people could have that conversation and the the comments that we received where you know this happened to me or can you look into this and I mean was a very organic thing and I think that you can't look into every case. You can't follow up on everything um but I think there's something very positive about people sharing their experiences and not feeling so isolated on a subject that so sensitive. And I I think that's really commendable.

Well, yeah and there's no someone who thinks she's sincerely believe she's been injured because SHE followed in order has nothing to be ashamed of and see does ever write to tell her story in public I I mean, the whole thing is so nuts. Did anyone to prevent a twenty four year old girl who think she's been injured by following in order from talking in public is just like you're not on the right side if you're preventing them, do you think?

I think IT was the right thing to do. I, I, I first, really Better story last october, and it's always spent in the back of my mind as a story that should be done. And so when I decided to launch the first investigation, I IT just seem like a .

natural to me. So when I thing back, when I got into this business, when I left college in one thousand and nine, one you've been in thirteen couple years, maybe before. No, not long, but you know eighty seven, eighty seven. So one thousand nine ninety seven, you work for A B C. News in london .

in the very the starter job craze .

to Younger people that that tached to b um and you had you know all the all the credentials, necessity get that and you to harvard in colombia well.

the joke with my father was did you really go to harvard to make coffee and fax documents and photocopy? Is that absolutely yes. And I make I I make the I do the best job photocopying and faxing, if anyone. But it's about providing your work.

of course. But IT was such a different world like that was a really rich company. Then mean that like catering and you know executives who first class go wherever you wanted. And I mean, do you look back on that and think, boy.

that was just such a different time. I was I was touch recently with the sort of a little core group of us that was starting out at that time between the news desk and um but they call the production control room and there were maybe twelve of us between maybe twenty two, twenty three and twenty seven and um we look back on that period is kind of like like a gold and window in television news.

The the quality of the correspondents, many had come out of vietnam or had come out of washington and then got a foreign signals. The crews were incredibly experienced. You know, if you had a camera and take your stand up, you know he probably had been in dayroom during the beaming and the editors were so experiment. I mean, he learned .

so much from from all of them.

I was an incredible opportunity for me and very formative. yeah. And now yeah.

it's just it's remember filling up my tax return in one thousand and ninety one. My first job, I worked at the gas station on a factory. But I never like where had a real job. And remember, you know, occupation journalist, I am a journalist.

No, it's like, I .

mean, why don't even know what I would put on there if, you know, you know, armed robber would be anything but if you know, IT seemed like a pretty honorable profession.

I hear what you're saying, and you're gonna cuse me of being so sort of deferential. But I just have always tried to stay focused on my own work, like I have to answer to .

myself that's a different, that's the opposite of deferential and ask casey, that's like, that's integrity.

The story know the story is in front of me, which is the one that I should really be doing. Where can I make the most impact?

What's the story that hasn't been told that I can actually agree with you one hundred percent? It's like it's not that hard to tell the truth. I don't think it's pretty easy, actually easier. The line was hard is figuring out what you should be focused on. And I think you're really good that what are the stories that should be told that aren't being covered.

Our our next project is going to look at um the issue of uh immigration and and the borders, and I don't want to give them all away, but we've got a lot of good data about how a homeless security in violation of federal in regulations on on a daily basis and creating, I think is a significant security risk for many american citizens um and I think that that really deserves a deep dive yeah and it's a story that I can really tell me that might have been hard to tell before .

so I can even get and I have tried like a clear number on how many people have come into this country illegally over the last four years. A minute ranges from five million to thirty million and I can and those are all kind of credible estimates, and I don't have no idea which one is correct. But why can't we get even a real number on that?

I I I think the simple answer maybe and I don't know, but my assessment would be that it's just the volume that, that we're talking about and just the volume. So but there's not but to your point, I don't think there's great transparency on this issue. I hope to bring a little bit more transparency to IT. So in .

your judgment, that's a big deal story.

One hundred percent. yeah. I and it's not just i'm looking at what the the polling shows about the top issues for american, american voters in this election cycle. I'm asking myself, I have information. I think the violations of federal line and federal regulations every day at the border, I need to find out if that's really, if that's really true.

And if that is true, why is IT true? And who is really losing in the equation? Is, is, is the country less safe as a result or or not? I don't know the answer to all of that yet, but that's that's a very legitimate story to also.

how does a bankrupt country, which is pay for all the services? I don't there are many questions, I totally agree. But so you're focused on the question. Is the federal government violating its own laws?

Federal employees .

and the extended you've reported IT out, are you closer .

to an answer? I I think based on our reporting so far, that is really a tips that way. IT does appear that way. And so my question is whether you know who's been disciplined, who's been suspended, who's spent fired, who's been demoted? And i'm not sure the answer is really anyone except the people who .

blew the whistle on IT .

really don't make me give the story.

which I I like.

you know but I think but that's the kind of to me, that's the kind of story you want to be doing right? I just think it's um the thing that has always encouraged me about um the the consumers of news in this in this country is that they really understand this idea of accountability they they wanted see IT they expected they demanded ed IT and and when you do IT, I think IT can be very gratifying to it's a kind of shine, I sounds like so old fashion but to shine a light on an issue that really is worthy of that and is screaming out for coverage.

how do you i've had many people asked in the service of the years, but you one channel will do a story or one newspaper a story, and then every other outlet will do exactly the same story. That was like a really beautiful e story. It's A A story of limited, obvious importance, but everyone does the same story.

How do these? I criticize that. where? How do you know where that come from?

I mean, I mean, this comes from the executives of the show producers.

But have you noticed that, you know, I don't know how many news organizations are on the united states in a country, three hundred fifty million people there. There are a lot. They all do you, in a given week, they do a sweet of maybe twenty stories, themes, you know, variations on the, perhaps, I mean, how why you would think, really.

I wish I had to answer that question. But you notice this.

right? I mean.

when you look at the run downs, the safe for an evening news broadcast, you'll see a lot of the same stories. Now there may be a function of the fact that they have such limited time to tell the story. He was at eighteen or twenty .

minutes or twenty four, four twenty, the topics of the same. It's just interesting. I'm not suggesting coordination, but I do think it's I don't know what that is. It's I think it's a conspiracy of like minded temperament.

They all kind of the same people. I just I don't know .

here but you can see there are a lot of stories that they could be doing.

They're not yeah I think song, that's the appeal of being independent is that you can tell some the stories that maybe you couldn't .

tell before we are done to have boss.

Yeah, it's a big change after nearly four decades of working for major media outlets. It's it's a huge change. I've had a lot of change in the last four months, five months, a lot.

you.

Called I miss the structure and very used to the structure um and uh you know structure that you know has resources that you didn't realize that you until you went to do IT yourself i'm sure you understand there yeah you've been there, right? But I I really like working with a small team and as a group deciding what is that, that we're going to pursue next and how can we structure the story that IT has an impact in, what kind of reporting do we need to be doing and at what point do we engage with government agencies and how do we keep moving the story forward after after we do IT.

I just find that just kind of accelerating and refreshing all all of the same time. And in a marketplace that's really just exploding where you are setting your own boundaries and your own rules, right? You are saying, okay, i've got almost four decades of experience.

This is what I believe journalism is. This is how i'm going to execute IT. These are my standards.

These are my expectations, and i'm gonna true to those. I'm gna follow IT through. That's the exciting part of IT. And then having a public that responds to IT, which I you know so grateful for .

people like gonna sty in a world'll of lies, I think do you feel when .

people are looking for credible, reliable information in a way that I never maybe seen in my lifetime working as a journalist?

M, so no, maybe what you're saying is that as a business, journalism is like more discredited than it's ever been IT more dislike, but individual journalists who decided to the truth.

I don't know. I know. I know if I would go that for and how comfortable I am merely commenting on the hall, you know, profession that way.

I I just have come back to my, you, I come back to my own you, my own work. I I wrote something recently for the free press, which is really an amazing Operation. It's bar wise has really built IT into this of, you know, engaging driving thing. You know it's like it's like a great source for information. I wrote something on on the project and you know that it's the protection of sources is the hill to die on. And IT was such a great experience to work with them and to see the reach of that story and to take an issue that I felt needed to kind of, you know, poke up through the voice and get some attention, because all of our our futures, our careers rest on that basic principle. So to me, that's an example of, you know, an independent media outlet, which is really has a lot of impact and .

made a difference. How of the people that you worked with thirty years ago? Where are you still around in the business?

I'm trying to think a lot of them are retired now. I went to a reunion and e bc, london reunion, or that was maybe seven years ago. Six or seven was before, just before I went to cbs.

And a lot of people were retired. A lot of people had passed. Five of them were already gone.

Is that weird? Yeah, sad. But um I learnt so much from them. And I think that not to sound too sentimental, but I think you Carry that on. I think one of the greatest things you can do at a certain point in your careers to share your experience and to share the skill set that you, that you have. And I really enjoy doing that, especially with Younger journalists.

How are you gna do IT ah.

you know, we I talk about this with our kids. How long am I gonna this and will I retire? And they all have the same verdict, which is like, om, like you need to keep working as long as you can work, because you really, if we had you lose in the house all the time, IT would just be crazy.

And you love I mean, I just love that I feel fortunately to have found something I feel so passionate about. Maybe you feel may be you feel the same way here and I I can't i'm surprised even by the evolution of where I am um today and i'm surprised that i'm fighting in the courts to be protecting confidential sources. But if if there's something that folks who are listening and watching this can take away is that, you know I came out of february.

So IT was a tough time. That's no question about IT, but I had a lot of clarity and sometimes crisis gives you clarity and the idea of a free press and free speech, this is really became my north star. They really became the driving force of what i'm going to do in this next chapter yeah.

I couldn't agree more. And it's where to wake up and see things you took for granted under threat. Did you ever think that free speech in the nine states would be open to question? No.

I I wouldn't have anticipate at the situation that I mean, now that's that's for sure.

Well, we're written for you. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's so to see you. Thanks for listen and tuck across and show. If you enjoy ID IT, you can go to talk to cross in that calm to see everything that we have made the complete library .

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