Sonos' headphones are extremely Sonos
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Welcome to the verge cast a flagship podcast of audio over life. I'm in friend T. V. Peers, and I am currently waiting on my breakfast order.

That doesn't sound like big news, but as i've mention on the show before, whenever I get to a new city, I immediately be looking for, like a handful of people. Really great cup of coffee. Really great.

Dont, really great, Peter is, I think, one I forgot to mention the last time. And a really great bacon, egg cheese. I haven't really found one in this neighbor.

Od, but there's this place that I met right now that is on the way to daycare for me, which means I walk by IT like forty thousand times a week. And they just got a new name, a new owner, a new chef and a new menu, including a breakfast, and wich I keep here in good things. This would be huge for me.

This is where I mad in life, is a breakfast, and wich would change things for me. So I ordered IT was eight dollars, which is a little high bit manageable. And we're going to see how we do anyway.

We have awesome show coming up free today. We're going to do two things. The first thing we're going to do is we're going talk about sona.

There's a bunch of new songs here, Chris, well reviewed. All I have been wondering ing about the sonos s headphones forever and Chris has them. He's used them, he's tested them, he's reviewed them.

We're going to talk to about IT and maybe if we're lucky, hear how I went. We're going to talk about the bw documentation about movie pass. It's called movie pass. Movie crashed and IT tells the story of one of the fastest growing tech companies of all time and also one of the fastest dying tech companies of all time.

It's a really interesting sort of because IT is kind of every tech story all rolled into one bundle of total chaos we're going to talk to the director and the CEO get the whole story super fun episode. We're also going to do hot line question. Lots to do.

All that is coming up in just a second. First, I hear my sandwich coming. I can smell my sandals coming. I'm very excited this is the worst guests we will be at. That support .

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Welcome back, right? Small bacon egg cheese update. IT was good and I was on a biscuit, which I liked very much. But this still isn't the one. To be clear, IT is again on my road daycare.

So I will be going there between, you know six and fifty and times a week, but I don't feel like i've solved this problem yet. So the hunt continues. And to everyone who absolutely does not care about my quest for the perfect baking and and cheers, very sorry.

Anyway, let's get to the shop. So sonos has been rumored to be making headphones for years. And I think for obvious reasons, this seemed like an exciting idea, right? Sonus is one of the companies that cares the most about audio.

And you kind of figure that if any company was going to figure out how to do really good design, really high quality audio, really usable product, though that kind of if e for APP based reasons, we have talked about. So but he feels like sono should be able to do a good job at this. Well, now we get to find out.

So the new sonos ACE headphones are out there, four hundred and fifty dollars. Chris welch has been using them. There's also the rome blue two speaker, which I want to talk about. But I am particularly curious about the A S, because there's just something really hard about doing a pair of headphones like this correctly. You look at something like the area podds max or the bose quiet comfort headphones.

And what you see over and over is that the combination of weight, battery life, overall comfort, sound quality, noise cancellation, easy connectivity is really hard to do all of those things simultaneously, correctly at any Price, foreign. And fifty dollars of a lot spent on a pair head. But a really great pair of happens that does all of those things well is like the White whale.

And a lot of companies are getting closer and closer. This space is really exciting, actually, but we haven't quite gotten there. So i've been fascinated to know, are the sono says the ones? Did they get there? Are they so O, C, and are they just an awesome parapet? funds?

Chis welch has reviews them. He knows this stuff Better than anybody know. Time to talk about IT. Chris welch, welcome back. Hello, hi sonus just continues .

to take up your whole life and existence. Seems like a fairly positive vibe. So far. I, P, M.

people seem to like the thing. yeah. I'm very curious how you review a pair of head funds. I want to get into the ice in particular. But like, walk me through A A, A day in the life of a Chris watch headphone review.

I mean, have you got my playlist? Have songs that I know so so well, then I just not write the subway walk around new york, see how how they get. It's like very warm in ork right now so that's been fun. But you know comfort my try and wear all day here at the office wants your choice to see how they wear over time you know like, i've got classes, so I want to see how those do as far as, like, comfort goes. But and nothing too crazy.

What are your favorite test songs? Like, what's at the top of that touch?

Mean, a big day, guys. nice. Got to go back to .

those albums. Which of the many gami guitar parts can I hear most clearly here?

Yeah, I love IT exact. So that's on there. But bees there, all sorts of stuff just go through one cycle between. But they are, these sound quite nice. I think they're of in between the stones on the airports. S max, there is some based to them, but at this not nice in a warm and detailed and I don't only have any complaints on that front.

is there I am realizing I i've never really known the answer this question is there like a sono sound in the way that I feel like there is sort of a beats sound? And to some extent there's kind of of both sound. Is there a sono sound with the ACE or with .

just sono stuff? In general? I don't talk like sound experts go for every speaker and product is sound in the audio ta so these are pretty clean, crisp. They're not like super base forward at a fairly baLanced.

There's no like profile I really like tell um so it's just here there are good standing pair head phones OK, but there are comfortable as hell that's like the main thing about this is so we like between the pom x just way so much than their posa plastic, which is fine for headphones. I think you know you certainly can overdo IT when he comes to metal and I think that's what we had for their podsnap. But if they feel great on your head over long time frames, I think their podsnap.

One thing I like about there was Better, the fabric year cushions. These are a bit harder because they're like clear. So in the summer, in the spring, you started to sweat, and that makes a difference. But on the whole, they are just wait way more comfortable.

Yeah, I was surprised actually, by how comfortable you them, given that they are not like, wildly heavier than, say, the bose, quite comfort, but meaningfully heavier. And I think the area podd s max, for me in particular, feel heavy on my head in a way that, like the best ones, you never don't know. You're wearing headphones, but I don't sort of feel them like to grab and them pulling down on my head with the airports. S macs, I very much do. And I was worry this was gonna closer that but IT sounds like at least in the way that they wear, they don't feel like that at all.

Yeah, not at all. Super comfortable. The battery life is thirty hours. So they last a long, long, long time, say I on the hardwork front, they got at all right, honestly. So for the first time out, it's pretty impressive. And the software of feature, you know, half of the work, and I was just why I gave them a seven. I think some other publications are a bit, a bit kinder.

We are on the hardware. I want to talk about just the controls for a second, in part because from the way you describe IT, IT sounds like got the how you use these headphones while they are on your head thing almost exactly right, like this idea of there are being one button that as everything. And then I think you you slide the button to change the volume.

I love that that that seems fantastic. Like is that is that as good as IT seems to be in terms of actually like putting your hands up and using the thing is for me, it's like I have the boss and it's just a bunch of sort of semi feeling buttons and i've gotten pretty good at knowing which one is which. But i'm still every time I put my hand up, but I kind of like slide down the cup to find the right hit and IT seems like not just like figured that .

out from the job. No, it's very good at the content key is called. Not sure about the name that name, but it's great. So IT takes some time to get used to just like finding IT and like sliding IT.

Like that difference you don't want to press when you slide, that takes like one day to get used to, but on the whole very good that compared to swipes all these like SONY headphones and stuff like the tab gestures, want to have gloves on, forget about IT. So this kind of stuff works. But in my experience, so there's that button, there's a button for the noise cancellation mode in a power button that's pretty .

much so that feels right. I will say I am just adamantly against touch pads on headphones. I just don't think they were.

I just did. It's just a bad user service. I'm out on IT everywhere. IT exists. I'm very gd to do that with you.

Yeah okay. So let's let's .

talk with the T, V. Audio swap ting because there are a bunch of other interesting features that sort of are and are not here, but TV audio up was the thing, right? Like if sonus is going to convince you about these headphones, one is it's a sonus product. Sonus tends to make very good sounding products, but the TV audio swap is the thing. Tell me about your experience with this.

It's been mostly good. Uh, had a few hick ups where just like didn't work and so much tells me it's a bug. Of course, it'll be fixed soon like so many other things that are coming soon.

But the whole, I see an arc, you just go home, you come home, turn your T, V, start watching something, and he hold down the content key for like two seconds. And then I just beams at right over to red phones. And there's head tracking.

If you want that, you can like, you know, move around and feel more immersed in your content. So just like anything put in to your TVB, like a gaming council, which works super well, surprisingly so. And it's just a little private way of watching T, V. And whatever you want.

Sora seems to have this idea that it's for more than just watching something quietly while someone else doesn't want to watch. IT. Like for me, I used private listening on roca for months after I had a kid, because, you know, have I AKM maramonte wearing headphones? And that is a way to listen to things quietly. But I get the same sonus things of this is like a like a lifestyle feature or is like a audio feature, more than just you can hear the audio, but others can't like what what is the big sort of galaxy brain case for audio swap and why you would wear heads.

phones to watch T, V, I can be more immersive. Audio surrounds down like the upcoming stereo, if you want that as well. So that sound really good.

I guess the true, it's like a five point one system on your head. Yeah that's fair.

That's something. And so there's that and this ball, there's a new feature called true cinema that's going to like a map your room using both the sound bar and the headphones. So IT sounds like more real this rounds and effectively trick your brain and like actually think think they are actually speakers around you right now.

It's not quite that level, but they say sometime this year that will be there in both is also working on this similar ideas to like pair sound bars and headphones and nearby ts together for like super emersion. So once that rules out, if you know that works as advertised, that will be interesting. But it's like very immersive IT sounds very nice. You don't have flight sacrifice audio quality, just not have your sound bar blurring away at night, which is nice and you can game on IT. Like I said, that's what i've done a ton and it's great.

What's been your experience so far in in terms of actually sitting down and doing IT? Like obviously, when you're reviewing the product. You're going to go through the work to sit down on the couch and the mote grab your headphones, do the whole thing. Do you think IT as just a Normal person in Normal life? You're going to add headphones to the flop down on the couch mix.

I think so i'd got romains. So that's the mean thing like it's late at night, not going to like have my arc going full blast watching you know top gun a mb, rick, not super. Consider IT.

So that's there. That's a use case in late night gaming. A past a certain point of night is like a super and anything that have and that sounds right. So is that worth the cost of the have phones and an arc? You know, that's a pricy thing.

I think in that case, the key is to try and convince everyone in the house to split IT. And it's this is not for me. This is for all of us. IT will be mine and I will own IT and you can use IT, but IT is for all of us. And so this like what eleven hundred dollar purchase we're just going to spend IT together.

It's going to be no problem. Yeah but should be coming to the ray in the being pretty soon at school for the rakes like the racist, take a basic like stereo sound bar, but you're gna get dolly I A around sound through your head. Phones were just nice to nice to see. But like once they roll out that support, once TV audio that works on android at all, that will be a nice thing. So I think I am going to go back and like we address the score once some of these software s go out for more people.

yes. So it's the one that works. Thing that is killing me here, right? Because this is, this is the story of sonus these last few weeks is that IT rolled out this half, finished APP, supposedly in order to support these headphones, which themselves don't feel finished from software perspective. And on the one hand, if you wants to pick a weakness of sonus, IT has always been at software. So I guess on the I shouldn't be totally shocked that IT seems like get maale ed the hardware and didn't finish this off right like that is kind of a so no story but on the other hand, I just can't stop thinking like why why ship any of this a now and be in this order when IT doesn't seem like there was any really like rymer's reason and none of it's done.

I don't understand the whole june time for me thing. I think maybe like the like thinking, like apps can have new airports in the fall that would just drowned out this if they waited and top pember. But even like waited until August would have given them like precious weeks to just polish everything a little bit more, get IT out the door as a full thing yeah, just a big rush.

And it's not clear why. I mean, people aren't like buying speakers and sound bars like they in the pandemic. So that's the main like in for is coming out in the first .

place as soon as a little palatina. I in that way, do you think that like it's a great product that is always going to be kind of a niche thing just by virtually of a what IT is in b, what IT costs and everybody who was gonna a get one, got one, which is great, but now puts you in a position of like there are probably aren't many people out there right now shopping for sono upgrades because everybody upgraded in twenty, twenty and twenty twenty one. So now if i'm so as like IT is the whole headphones push, just we need a whole new thing to give people so that they're not upgrading. They're actually buying like a net new object ever.

Sure, OK. That's the main reason behind this. They'll get services, they get songs, radio hd other so as proof businesses or they like manage you're speaker. So I trying to branch out and find like new ways of more income.

But like you that like know I went an arc IT would take a lot for me like upgrade a sound bar, like there's that much as this thing doesn't do that, I would need from some new version that goes what to play five, which just been round forever. So these are first, and you can see like a world where they do not just have phone, but either boots. And the full thing.

This is a good start, the four hundred and fifty books, which is that a lot of money, but people, people spend a lot on the stuff. So SONY and both and everybody else, the same territory. But if, for the first time out, you know super impressive, I think they've a lot of bugs to work out.

The APP is still a causing chaos, mean, the sonus sub reit is just i've never seen anything like that, just every day, still still people venting, which I understand, you know people lose petres. I'd be upset to like i'm with the line, you and I don't really use my sound system that way or I ve noticed much different. But and they should have just waited one or two more or months, put all the stuff out in the fall and had a waste of their experience that I didn't cause.

Yeah, I think to some extent, sonus is lucky IT got the hardware as right as I did because it'll it'll buy IT a chance to do that like I think if if there had been even one kind of big flaw in the hardware on top of all the stuff with the APP, ah this would feel almost dead on arrival. Where is now? It's like, okay.

I think there's a reasonable chance that come this fall or like this holiday on a lot of people Christian shopping, this is going to be a dim, good pair of headphones that is actually going to make a lot of sense for a lot of people. I will say the thing about that, that kills me, the sort of dream that I think a lot of people have had for a zona headphones. And what i'm seeing a lot of in our comments to on your review is this idea that I should fit perfectly into my whole sonus ecosystem, right, that I should, I want to listen to music on the speaker in my kitchen while I make dinner, and then pop on headphones and just, boom, the music switches, everything works great.

And then I can play from, you know, my my record player and the TV in my living room, in the TV upstairs. And everything that is in the sonus ecosystem, just sort of beautiful ly flows around. And this is when the promise of songs for forever and the ACE just doesn't feel like IT comes anywhere close to that.

Like the content key thing you're describing, where IT its sound and works with the S I am confident that will eventually work very well. I could be wrong about that, but IT seems like that that is the sort of thing sooners will eventually get right because IT usually eventually gets that kind of afraid. But IT isn't. Seem there's any indication that this is going to be the like magical addition to my whole sono system that I wanted IT to be so funny should say that .

last week they had like a reddit asked me anything ah where people have asked about this at home so they kind of said like we're just not there IT as over the teacher s so in terms of like CPU power, these have a fraction of even like the son's room, a small processor in there. Then there's wifi worry about battery worries. And so they're like we tried IT, like we prototype those wifi hephzy that everybody wants and they suck.

So like gore, just not thereat as far as like being able to do that. And and I have be available. They're like they're like we tried IT and this is not the right time right now.

So this is like a first step, I think, and that makes sense is like a you know a half way point between full on of integration. And we have now with the T V O. So it's good starting point. But I can see the point like, you know do you really want like a short battery life just for wifi audio? And then I would sometimes, but you know give IT like two or three four years, maybe i'll see that kind of product eventually.

That's fair. And I was a two sonos credit. Making a thing that is fundamentally just a very good fairy of blue two headphones is the right thing and not something sono historically always does.

Making a thing that actually easily works with all of your non soo stuff is a Victory. So I think if if you're forcing me to choose, I will take what they did. But he does.

I just feel like there's that little piece of sort of sonos magic that nothing else can get to that I didn't quite hit and that bombed me out from an audio perspective. Does the wife I think matter? I just like sincerely ly, don't know how much I should care that I can't do wifi audio. Vers, just having you blue eth cortex support from my phone. There are always .

people who like where they can tell the difference tween lost, lost of you, like all these cotex, I can tell maybe sometimes just one of those things people just like want to have. They're reading all that money.

I think they just the best thing and so that makes sense to want that um is really a matter it's gonna come down to like each person individual I can see like why you would wanted as well as I get turn table in your system and like an APP and like having like play that through your headphones that be awesome. But unfortunately were not there quite yet. But like that this sound very good, good head ones.

So several features like all these high and headphones usually do others like on head detection. So you like take him off, pause all those like like the small quality of life things are there's multipole ts. You can press with two devices that once, and so they've cover a lot of around thers like wired USB c listening.

So if you want lossless audio, there is your answer. So they ve ve got a lot of ground, but now is like we are game a wait and see, like the android support and the beam and the rain. But that should shake out as long as promises, software fixes and usually do make good and actually, you know putting them out out. So yeah, we'll see how long IT takes. So playing this month for some of the stuff, but and there's no from timetable just yet.

So yeah, IT doesn't m like audio quality wise. I feel like the gold standard is like whatever new SONY a al thing. I can't remember the name of thing, the new bose, quiet comfort and the airports. Max, I feel like that kind of like the trio everybody thinks of.

There are simple, the great favorite sound quality ones at the moment. All these brand like powers and wilkins for like that true like audio file segment, but like buying large. Like you said, like for most consumers, it's SONY, it's bows, it's apple. And now hopefully so once what they want to .

happen when IT seems like from a sort of what it's like to wear and use and listen to them ah as belonging there. But I think like the one other piece of that we haven't talked about is the noise cancellation, which to me I think is like maybe the most important feature for me like this is right out myself as somebody who is like by no means and audio quality expert, but somebody who is constantly on planes.

The a nc really matters me, which is why have been a real like bose loyalist over the years because both is just Better at this than everybody else. How do the shape up there? Uh.

both are still Better than everybody else. But these are good. You know, they're like top here level, but they are good enough for a plane ride or the train now have had on the past two weeks.

And they are good for the subway. My coffee shot back and still here a little bit rack when I worked from the coffee shop of my block. But so not like boys level of va took a coon of silence. But for most, like every day to one, I like caves, some peace and quiet.

Don't do the job just fine. What the flip side, what does he called out to pass through? Thing where IT tries to .

pumping in the outside noise? Is that the very removed of all in these are lake not too far behind that onest? Ly, oh, wow. Okay, like that's where someone is really came through any .

kind of surprised me because their boss max are drastically Better than the both.

Are you like a stones throw away pretty close and then both and so when you are not not so how when he comes to the past three mode, but yeah, so it's not worth classing and see, but it's close at the transparency mode front, pretty.

So IT seems like even if you're not a sonus person and you're just wanting to buy a really good pair of headphones to pair with your computer and phone and whatever, if you don't have any other stones here, this is probably like a hundred dollars more than you want to spend on this pair of headphones. But like absolutely belongs on the poke around the azo listing said that, is that a fair? Sure.

I can start. There are so most journey with headphones that cause this much. But i'm some people will there the person who, despite these and then things, these are great.

And by as know the whole, the art covies ly, you would get first if you want, actually use the core feature. But yeah, I mean, a third great. Like they belonged the same conversation as everybody else. As far as like sound quality, fit and finishing comfort. Like I said, the comfort is really go to your local best buy entities, and you're gonna pretty surprised by how good they feel.

I think it's big win for sonus, honestly, especially if you go back to that, like sonos has to find the thing to sell people who don't want some OS here, right? That's a big win. And I I would bet I could be totally wrong, but I would bet that we're going to get till like black friday. And this thing is gonna be three hundred .

and forty nine dollars. That would be nice. That would help for sure. But even now, they're great. I think the White one, my favorite pair, the black, the black is fine.

but the right ones are really, there are really nice looking.

So that I go on.

which ones have you been testing White ones? I would get sort of a like gross peta on them after, so they .

still look good. The case is getting pretty tty dirty. White case got a nice Green interior, so the black ones get y've like an anti to help with that a little bit. But they still pick up some other stuff like all the black plastic get attending do but personal preference .

that's always yeah I was like for for all of the kind of missing sonoy stuff. I'm very impressed that sonus did as well as I did here. Just to make this good a pair of headphones. Just absent all the other stuff, just this good a pair of headphones on its first trial of the gate gives me great hope for what? So as may be able to do here .

for you to think that expenses job is safe for now, I give you a couple of updates .

until I feel very confident about that. But I like the thoughts so far. I also forgot one other, a question that I forgot to ask.

We're going to come on and we're going to do a 4 fani headphone mike test at some point because that a thing we need to do， the people love when we put horrible sounding audio in the version, and we haven't done in a while. Chris, going up to do IT. But give me, give me the quick feeling of how the microphone is on.

Pretty good, pretty good. If you go to the review, there's an bed of me testing them that I put out today, trying to give you a sense of how they sound, how clear they are and what they're suitable for a phone calls on the go. So I know what you think there are clear and that one play really take calls outside.

I just don't enjoy IT for myself or the other person on the line. I so I try to avoid IT, but sometimes your coffee shop on you am work fine, they do a decent job cancelling and all of that and you come through clearly. So i'm not sure what else you would really ask beyond that.

So before let you go, you also have the new rome, the new ba speaker. You haven't told this sure of view that's coming later this week. Give me a preview how .

you feels so far. And they added a button really, really what IT comes down to. yes. So the first room had a combined power and blue eth paring button, and you had to set IT up at home first before you could use IT as a portable speaker, which never made any sense. So they fixed that.

He can news that out of the box now what to do, but the other's new button, that sounds exact same. So if you heard that before, I ve heard this one, battery life is the same. Some people haven't, like, had the best time with the room over time.

He has the battery ages, not so. So tell me that they have done some work there to make IT. Uh, last longer.

But yes, it's the same speakers before the same Price. Just the new button comes in colors. It's small. It's a good bathroom speaker. That's how I use mine h for the shower but yeah, it's not my top here favorites there.

But I mean, button are good. We hear on the first, we believe in buttons. You know this. So I will take .

IT love buttons.

yes. Well, it's very upsetting that I want to buy one of these now, and I will not forgive you for that. I also want to buy an ice now.

I like, don't have a sound bar and all of the sun I go. Twelve hundred dollars is a perfectly rational amount of money to spend upgrading my TV audio today. Like what could possible go run?

There's the, there's an art to coming and. Even like a high.

All right, we got going to take a break and then we're going to be right back to talk about movie pass. Chris, thank you. As always.

my pleasure. Thank you.

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Welcome back in the top draw of my desk here. I have this pile of cards. Everybody have a pile of card somewhere. I sort of assume everybody has a pile of cards somewhere. Mine is just a bunch of random junk.

Mostly it's gift cards with like thirty cents still on them, a bunch of expire credit cards that I don't know to do with this one I think is a chick fully rewards card that somehow I have, I don't know. And in that piles, the other day, I found this red mastercard that as movie pass in big letters up in the top left corner, IT ends in seven, zero, nine, nine. Just case I got this card, I think in twenty seventeen, maybe twenty eighteen, IT apparently expires january of twenty twenty five.

But i'm confident that i'm never going to get to use IT again. In fact, i've never used IT once. I never even managed to get this card activated because by the time I signed up for movie pass, the company was such a mess that I never even responded to my customer service emails I looked back through, and all I have is a bunch of one sided request being like, hi, I would just like to use the card that i'm paying you for, please, nothing.

If you were online in the summer of twenty seventeen, you probably remember movie pass. There is a decent chance you were a user of movie pass that you ve got a card and then went and saw a million movies all at once. IT was in all you can watch movie theaters sugriva ten works the month to see up to one movie a day.

That was, that does all the rules, at least for a while. IT was a great product for anyone who likes watching movies, and IT was a truly horrific business. IT took less than two years for the company to burn through two hundred and fifty million dollars and shut down the product entirely, which is honestly in a certainly kind of impressive.

Anyway, there is a new documentary out now on max called movie pass. Movie crash. And IT tells the story of movie pass IT talk.

This thing .

ever I E popular E T T E fast.

We remember them.

Whatever happened, those guys, it's a story about wild corporate greed, about a lot of bad decisions. And I think at its core, it's about how two black founders found themselves ousted from their own company, and really their own story by a couple of fast talking, wheeling and dealing White hoods.

I was like, we need to pump the brakes a little bit. I just thought that I would be Better if he wasn't a part of the team like the heart of the past.

The deeper you got in, the more you realize all .

of this was part of a bigger story. The dog is fascinating.

I really recommend everyone watch IT, whether or not you still have your red movie pass card playing around. A couple of days after I watched the dog, I got on a call with .

two people to talk about IT sty Spikes cofounder and CEO of movie pass.

My name is mutually and a film.

I should point out, by the way, that muta ali is the director of this film. Also, just in case that wasn't clear, this is sort of a spoiler, I guess. But the bones of the early movie pass story is this, stc and his cofounder, hui, what started movie pass in twenty eleven.

And it's more expensive than IT turned out to be. It's doing okay. They have about two thousand and subscribers not taking over the world.

But along they hired this guy, MIT, who says he, the cofounder of netflix, but that turns out to not really be the case for interesting reasons, who then links movie pass up with a company called helios and matheson and IT C E. O ted farnsworth, who injects a bunch of marketing money into movie pass in order to help you grow. And along the way, mr. Law and tedford worth start testing ideas to see how they might help the thing grow into the stratosphere.

We had grown to twenty thousand cups. And if you go and you look at the netflix growth curve, IT has a long, slow art and then there's this hockey puck. IT just starts to take off.

And we had a very similar trajectory in that we were a multimillion dollar revenue company. We weren't that far from profitability. We are at a thirty dollar Price point.

We knew we were in the bowl park, but we got there with no advertising, was only word of mouth. And so we'd never had an ad budget. And so really IT was we had figured out what our customer acquisition cost was.

We wanted to do the deal just to get ad budget, but still grow with the right per month subscription Price. And so that's what you wanted to do. You you needed to leave the garage, and you had a really hard core fan base that people, they just love the service and IT was break even.

And so now great add that, well, IT broke apart when h and why they were coming in, and they secretly ran a test and a mitchy giving them access to our logging page, and they went online and they put the new Price point up and tested. We thought our site had been hacked, and we were like, hate our sight. Man hacked somebody just put up a landing page for ten box.

And they were like, no, no. Mitch gave ted in his team access to the website landing page, and no one ever told us to the engineering team. And so when you click on the button, IT didn't let you sign up.

They were just using a engage interest. And they were like, we've got a hit. And I said, if you want to make IT even bigger, make IT five books a month. If you want to make a bigger than make IT one dollar a month, I said make a ninety nine sense.

You're giving money away is pretty easy. I kept thinking that watching this that like if you just give people money, they'll take IT and you will be very successful at giving .

people of money. And it's a race to the bottom when that you have no competitors like. But why, why don't you walk your way down in Price?

Ten box a month for all the movies you can watch was just never going to work. To be clear, IT was awesome for movie hours. And one of my favorite things about the dog is all the folks in IT who saw hundreds of movies for a fraction of the Price.

I love that for movie girls, but I was never sustainable, low and farm worth, had this big idea about collecting data about those movie goers and then selling IT back to thear chains. And eventually they seem to think movie pass would get so big and so powerful that they'd be able to negotiate a piece of ticket sales and even concessions from those leader chains. That didn't happen even at the time we all kind of knew I wasn't going to happen. And just in case you think that's twenty twenty hind sight, here is a clip from a verge video in july of twenty eighteen.

Me, look, the whole thing really is a mess. And IT comes down to the fact that the past doesn't make money. The company hopes that when I hit is a certain subscriber, besides all the math magically work out. The meantime, it's burning through cash, causing the stock Price of its parent company to limit the fix. Apparently things to be to get its customers that to stop going to movies or they do to .

pay up that last point is a good one, by the way. At one point, to stop the money bleeding, movie pass started to create weird new rules for what you can see and when, and its executives are actually under investigation for even doing worse things like allegedly breaking the product on purpose so that people would stop using IT at big movies. The whole thing was just a mess. And a big part of the movie pass, movie crash story is busy saying that allowed internally and getting pushed out of .

the door for IT. Do you have the founder who built the plane saying IT can handle these g forces? There's no way the math is gonna.

What made IT worse to me is you had customers saying, i'm willing to pay more to help you be solvent, like when your customer basis saying that that's crazy, right? If people are like, this is so awesome, I went to four hundred movies last year. Please charge me more because I know i'm saving a lot of money.

I'm still, i've got so much upside. I'll pay you one hundred box a month and i'm still saving money. And when your customer basis saying that and your founders is saying that, then the writings on the wall and that part of the plan, you figure IT out your experiment and you find the right place, great.

You find an entry point that consumers love IT now find a profitable place to be at. And if that's thirty bux a month, yeah, you might lose the thirty to these people, but you're still the biggest subscription company in the world. So apart theatrical.

So that was a hard part, was just a gesture pricing. What's wrong with that? Your fire get out.

Part of the reason i've always been interested in the movie pass story is that the rough shape of that arc is something we've seen so many times in tech. You prioritize growth at all costs. You lose a giant amount of money and then something you'll become so big and so powerful that you can either raise Prices or find new ways to make money.

That's the uber story. That's the lift story, that's the bird story, that's the instinct story, that's the tiktok story, on and on and on. Sometimes IT works, usually IT doesn't. IT definitely didn't for movie pass. And in fact, I think movie pass might have sort of speed run that whole story quicker than just about anybody. The other kind of tech trope about movie pass that kept jumping out to me was the whole fast talking founder with big ideas who might be full of crap, but everybody keeps listening to you anyway thing, which is obviously a stable of silicon valley. And for muti poking at that idea, and in this case, who played that part for movie pass was a big part of the movie past documentation.

When I was doing research, a lot of people in social media who were try to discover, once the real story behind movie pass, some of them were speaking in with the understanding that Mitchell and ted finance worth were really the founders. They were speaking and having these deep digging in movie pass and not even mentioning stac. And I felt that they might need to enter the story through their perspective.

IT serves us in a couple ways because it's a little bit of a reveal for people who don't know. I might make some people uncomfortable who do know and may they even know the real founders movie pass are and they that and Pearl ly keep brought the work. But IT also plays into part of the premise, which kind of revealed itself in the more.

Crystalize form once we were later on the production is that has to do with racial bias and people's assumptions about who plays what role, especially an attack company. And maybe if you did enter this story, assume that, okay, yeah, uh, the match is the leader and this is just kind of complaining and maybe he doesn't know how to ride this rocketship like mitch. Does he know because mitch is the out of netflix and I will be set in, your biases played against you and then you're like, oh, maybe I need to rethink how I was thinking about this.

And and so that little kev IT in in terms of a lot structure or that little inverse order helps play into that. I will say that IT was a battle internally. You know, I didn't think this is a collaboration thing.

And so I at first didn't want to start the story that way, but then there's an actual argument point someone can make that we need to start with the excitement. We need to start with the millions of people coming into movie pass. And in my mind, part of me is like, well, you you can't look over Stacy and amazing, like all these ten years of development I did before that.

And so IT was a lot of back and forth and and I actually needed to see IT done both ways before I actually was on board with this little trick because I think I was R T. Gift who suggested IT to me that, oh, maybe we should trick people like the very beginning. And I was like, I don't know exactly what that would do to me in terms of how I feel about this story.

And I didn't like IT until I decided to like, roll IT out the way that we did. I know and like roll IT out so that he really emphasizes that stc and how may are in a position of vulnerability, a position where they weren't in control of the ship. And okay, that's Normal.

They're not the founders. And then you realize all they are the founders and they're not in position to drive this staying. And then you might feel a little bit more concerned about them. And so IT was a lot involved. There was a lot involved and i'm glad .

that I really does work at a twist, whatever, seventeen and a few minute in the movie. C, C, how did that part of the process? But I don't know how involved you were kind of with the the overall production, but like watching a lot of this sort of twice in terms of IT play out again all these years later, obviously, IT hasn't gone a way you've been involved. This is a thing you live through. But how does the feel to see all of that sort of put into .

one place in order? I mean, I think IT was what muti did. So i've seen, you know, we work in their nose and all of them. I think we all kind of travel in a pack and we watch these things.

And I think what he did was closer to the Steve jobs apple story because it's the only thing, you know, they had a lot more air time on c nbc or M S N B C or all of the different shows that they were on yahoo finance, where they were being presented as that and called themselves the founders. So whoever bought of IT, whichever IT is a master stroke and story telling because it's not straight. Lennar and you know, a third of the way through IT then brings you back to the beginning, to the origin and story.

I thought I was a message. He did make me nervous. The first fifty he was sitting next to me in the theater was seen at the first time, and he got a cup of a side eglantine. He and he literally said, just wait for IT, wait for IT, because I didn't know what was happening. And he literally had to tell me, hang on, could I wanted to positive film and go have a conversion .

in the first cut? He should just cut you out entirely as a, just really make you sweat for a while.

Yeah, my wife was there with me. SHE go. Did they know you were the founder? And I go I said, yes, hang on.

he wait until that and we were at almost a big picture by the time they he said so he wasn't like he had a have big chance to change much. So if I was, there are die that point.

One thing i've always wondered about movie pass is, could IT have worked if they hadn't grown too fast? Burn money at unprecedented, tes made a series of ridiculous bad decisions. Is there a stable idea underneath here? Both muti ant stac agreed that the ten dollars a month thing killed movie pass, both seem to think that IT didn't necessarily half to I think there .

were a series of of figures that took place that allowed mobile passed to crash in away that I did. The biggest though, I think, is having nine ninety five is that Price point for promotional purposes. Turning into this is our Price point forever.

And I wonder what you know. I think we used that was forty eight hours when you had the Price at nine ninety five. And then you gain hundred seventy five thousand new subway bers in two days. If you had cut off, then maybe that would have been the secret to excess because you won't gotten that marketing boost IT h or what do you think?

Yeah, I think when we talked about IT, we see a great turn that off. Tell everyone this is a promotional Price point and just give my heads up, this is a promotional pass point. You're all month to month at some point, this will Normalize, but enjoy IT for now, right? And then I would take certain segments and I would have said these people are going up to thirty, like test different zones in different things, test your different Price points, see what elasticity you have.

If we are go up to fifty dollars, how high is a turn if we are thirty dollars or for twenty five, but what's the lowest we can go based on the behavior were seeing? And then you move your Price and you're onna get some turn. But you've got so many people excited of the original idea that they keep going, and that's all you had to do. And you and we would be sitting here talking about a really big company, a big global company that was weight because in AMC or rego would never been able to catch up to you.

to be fair, of course, say he believes all of that. He's actually the CEO of movie pass again. After being outside from the company in twenty IT went through all of its disasters.

He bought the company back in twenty twenty one. And actually, we launched IT last year. There were a bunch of new things about IT, some web three stuff that I thought was kind of weird at the time, but doesn't really seem you've come to anything. But IT Operates .

very differently from a technology standpoint. We had some of the innovation. So we had our first year back and we were profitable. And we added a credit system where we knew we needed a governor to be between the consumer, the product in the marketplace and in any marketplace.

You need to show value to the consumer so that the consumer can have alignment with the company in in version one, whether you went to, say, an AMC where there maybe wasn't a partnership or you went to A B and b, where there was in the APP, you couldn't see the difference. And though we were getting wholesale pricing from someone else, there is no display of that. So this version, we simply said, let's use a credit system to show alignment when the Price is cheaper and say, let's motivate them by giving them a certain number of credits so that now they are aligned with saving money.

The way we are aligned with saving money. That didn't exist in the one, but we knew that was the pathway because we were beginning the test that in twenty sixteen. And so when I said, guys, let me tell you how to get there.

A raise the Price. B, we have this variable Price in capability. They are like, no, this ten dollar point is so awesome.

We're adding a quarter of million, unlike you losing thirty dollars per person per month. So I think that the technology, it's subscription, this isn't this isn't news. Since newspapers were born, we've had subscription businesses.

So a lot of its not new, but the way to use the tech is new. So now we built IT with machine learning in AI engines, which is very different. So I think the technology was there, just stupid was drive in the bus and that all that .

the problem with that theory though is that the movie, there's industry looks really different now than I did in twenty eighteen or twenty eleven for that matter, when they first started working on this. We're in the midst of one of the worst box office runs in a long time. We just had the worst memorial day at the movie theory in three decades.

And by at least one measure that I saw, ticket sales are twenty two percent below where they were at this point a year ago, and they fell forty one percent down from twenty nineteen. It's kind of like the pandemic happened and movie there's just never came back, which makes sense, right? We're streaming.

More were on netflix, more were home, more maybe movie theaters are just over. This is not remotely surprising to anyone who is like a living life and watching T. V.

More often. But D, C, doesn't think it's the case. This guy loves the movies.

I'm not a filmmaker, but I love and respect what people like. Muti will spin three, four, five, six, seven years on bringing a ninety minute story to screens and telling this they are our profits. They are our freedom fighters.

They bring stories that otherwise would never get seen. It's such an important art form that is under attack that if you know you have the burden of responsibility, the U. F. Technologies that can double the attendance of movie going and you can create efficiencies in in a sector that doesn't work with itself.

When you see a netflix, they can go into a space, dominate that space from top to bottom because they have a direct consumer relationship and no one ever built anything from the consumer point of view and empowering the consumer. So I think it's a beautiful moment in time because I don't want that cinema died on my watch. You know that IT was a simple technology upgrade.

I want the motley of the world to forever be able to tell stories in such a powerful medium. And theatre shouldn't be these things on their last legs. It's just stupidity and arrogance and pride that's preventing technology from unlocking such great opportunities.

We are in such a beautiful moment that if we can get out of the way, I think that storytelling will go to the next level, because I think we're on the verge of a new golden age of cinema from we see how storytelling creation is just mine blowingly changing. And you see how even the site and sound experience in the theatre is changing. But what IT takes to get people there isn't changing. And that's the part that we're focused on. And I feel blessed to be able to have the privilege to be able to do that.

Yeah, basically other than doing, it's spent a disaster at theaters this year. And i'm Carried from both of your perspectives, like what do we do next with movie theirs? I agree.

I could be easier. I agree, buying IT IT could be cheaper on this subject. H, I do wonder to something fundamental in the movie. Going experience need to change here.

Cinema has A P. R problem. IT does have an attendance problem. You notice that this past weekend, okay, more people went in four days to the movies than everyone who will tend an nfl game in an entire year.

In four days that how many people went to the movies, okay, you don't get at a football game. They don't tell you how many tickets are sold at every single game. I think that we need to stop reporting box office numbers because we're focused on the wrong things were not focused on movie making.

We're focused on movie going. And IT doesn't matter how great the movie was because most really big films didn't gross at the box office over time. They became part of our culture. And so we're focused on the wrong thing because everything is determined by one number.

What was the growth of the box office this weekend compared to last year and the year before? We need to stop reporting those numbers and get back to the days when I was a kid, you didn't report growth of star wars IT wasn't until I M, D, B. And certain other things came on mind that my mom would call up and go, oh, you know what such in such growth this weekend, we became obsessed with that.

And you'll hear even with youtube and a lot of creators, they say, I stop watching my view number. I started focusing on content and I started focusing on doing the right content, and I will take care of itself. Movie going is healthy when you stop comparing IT to these numbers, that every monday morning you have a report card that you failed.

No sports do this. No other industry, the travel industry, they report quarterly where some single companies, but you do not get group wide grows every weekend on a business you don't have IT. So I think that's detrimental to us. IT gives us a very big pr problem.

That's a good take. I haven't heard that before. I actually really agree with that. Uh, we actually what do you think our movie theres? You're making stuff for the internet.

Who cares about movie? There's right now I care about movie. There's and the i've had has been at movie there's but IT was screening movie pass, movie craft.

So I think that's proud. Ly, why? But that in person experiences something that will always be Better than watching IT at home.

And speaking of june, I just wait to june two for the first time with my brother. And we watched IT on A T. V.

And I wish that we had wasted in the theater maybe the second time I felt that way like, oh, this movie was so great. I wish that i've seen IT in a data out with other people that sort of glow that happens when you go. And that that communal experiences that C C.

Was, uh, referred to is something special. That culturally, I think we're gonna a turn back to our after we get enough of sort of the convenience of watching movies on our phone and I think will be going is still gonna a drive. And I think maybe it's just time for us to be reminded of how special IT is.

I like IT, I will say, doing to ripped in theatres like IT, one of them maybe the best theater going experience, not to make you feel Better, one of the best movie of the experiences i've had in a very long time.

The movie is just so loud, it's still playing. Some places see IT in, do be utmost, because the sound design in there is just insane. I haven't seen anybody's house that can do do be utmost.

He's right about that, I think. And I agreed that there is still something to be said for going to the movies. I certainly felt IT with doing to still thinking about that movie.

And I think there is a lot more to change about the movie going experience than just the way we buy tickets and what they cost. But the way we buy tickets and what they cost is definitely a start. All right, we got to take a break and then we're going to come back and take a question from the very cast hot line will be right back.

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Right, right back. Let's go to the hot line. As always, the number is eight, six, six, verge, one, one. The email is verge cast at the verge that come. We love your questions.

Thank you to everybody who has reached out with thought about what's going on with OpenAI and how the verge and everybody else should talk about this stuff. Please keep in coming. It's been really interesting to hear all of your thoughts, and it's really helpful as we think about where we go from here this week. We have a smart home question.

Christian from last Angels. So this is a question about the smart home. So probably, hi jane. How are you? So I have home assistant running .

on a little gravy type.

and I love IT. It's actually pretty good. It's prety flexible.

I have a two stupid thing to do. The apple harm does money do, and it's great. I have speakers in life.

Is there a reason to add like a third thing I like kind of can't come up, like I went and so like i'm not going to get only blinds, right? Like I don't have a gate in front of my house that I want to do a smart work. I don't think that last one that safe.

I feel like this smart homes kind of just like a really bad thought generally, but like a like non starter kind of spot for renters. And I wrong in that. Let me know, because I would love you to improve and wrong and that, like, please, I was desperately love that, but I don't. You let me know. Thanks by.

well, ask you. You sh'll receive G, T. E.

How are you? I'm good. thanks. Hi, Chris, too. Very excited to answer this question because it's a topic I get asked a lot.

So yeah, lots to dive into in your question there. The first one, i'm going to say renters, yes, there is lots of great stuff you can do, especially if you have assistant. I mean, Chris, you're already set up pretty well for doing some cool stuff.

I'd actually say that sort of two answers here. Like if you are renter, there are options. If you a render with her assistant, there are way more options. interesting.

okay.

Just because you know IT sounds like Chris is maybe you know quite technically vancsik mean.

if you have homesites M, I think to .

assume on a rusby .

pie yeah yeah.

Do you know what you're doing? And then also, he mentioned apple home. So I assuming that his main platform that does narrow your choices down, but then home assistant widens them back up again.

But just to answer the overall question about renters, I do think there are more and more options for renters. And you mention dollops, ks, dollar cks actually are in a Better space for renters, and they have been for a long time. There's the August wifi smart lock, which has been sort of our number one choice for renters because it's retrofit. So you're not having to replace your dollar, which your lamborn may not like, but you still get to control the lock in a way that is useful for a smart home perspective.

That's the one that just goes like on over top of the existing lock.

right right of the back of your dead bolt. So you do have to remove the same term, but everything else stays as is.

That is pretty clever.

which makes IT very easy, also means you can take IT with you when you if you move to another apartment. And also that just yell has just come out with a new retrofit smart look. So there's another good option there. And they both both yell and August, who are owned by the same company and their sister brands. They have come out with a new keypad that has a touch fingerprint reader in IT, so you .

can now use a fingerprint lock. O, G, wifi t it's just, yeah it's it's the most like mission impossible thing that I have tried in this one home and I I cannot recommend IT enough and that .

while we've now got facial recognition for small looks so I haven't tried that yeah but that came out and see yes, but yes and the fingerprint is great, really easy. It's my favorite way of unlocking the door. Apple home key is also a really useful way if you use apple home.

Unfortunately, there are not any retrofit dialogs at work with apple home key right now because it's all inside the house. So there's nothing to do. The NFC, although these new keypads do have nsc in them.

So as potential, we may see homekeeping some of these retrofit locks. And that brings me to the second retrofit lock I would recommend, which is actually coming out this month. And when I say recommend that having tested IT yet, but I have test in some of their past products and they've been good, a cara is coming out with a retrofit smart lock.

So the same concept, you can just replace the dumb term on your dead bolt and then you put you can put a keypad out in the front of your house so that you can access IT that also has a fingerprint reader that does have NFC in. And I would not be surprised, ed, if at some point in the future that could support homekeeping. Carrot already does support home key in some of its products. So there's lots of options now that didn't used to be. So that's nice for home kit, apple home compatible retrofit mart locks.

Do you think that's a good like third place to start the luck thing I do.

I think locks are actually my favorite smart home device, most useful, easiest for everyone to use, not complicated mostly, and provide real value, you know, being able to unlock and lock your door remotely if there's problem, there's so much value. I think in smart locks and the safety issue, it's just as easy. I think if you're concerned about someone hacking your smart or lock, don't be.

It's just as easy for someone to break a window was easier, much easier, sorry to break a window, then IT is to hack a smart lock. And in intensive, whether someone's gonna knock your door down again, regular door looks smart, look not a big difference. So yeah, would not worry about the safety side unless you have someone who really smart, a big hacker who's after you, in which case may be.

But in terms of the third thing, I mean IT difference, I think for renters, perhaps from people that own their homes because, you know, a smart thermostat is a big one, energy management bringing that into your smart home. I would say if a smart femsa is the research shows that the top three devices people use in their smart homes as smart video door bells, smart cameras, which is kind of the same smart theer's ATS and then robot vacuum interest OK as well as smart light bubs or in their number four, then the robot vacuum. So you've already got the smart light.

I mean, a video doorbell t is you can do a battery powered one as a renter. So that's a good option. Docks actually, you know, aren't in the top categories.

I think it's just still still bit of a niche. But I do find IT, lika said, one of the most useful smart devices in my home. And you use IT every day. And yeah, there's a lot of innovation in this space to but for Chris, who has I think you know that was probably an a more advanced smart home user. What I would recommend as like the third thing based on what he has is more automation.

So that is using senses making your home smart, not just having a few smart devices in IT and because he has home assistant, you know, using devices like motion senses, contact senses, smart plug, smart buttons to kind of bring everything together and work more seamlessly. Go back to cara, who I mentioned the beginning. That's a really good option for someone that's using apple home and home assistant because you can actually, most of their ziggy devices will pair directly to homa sistine, and they have great, inexpensive motion senses, smart buttons.

So things like he can have his lights turn on when he opens his front door. Or what would be really from him to try actually, is the fp two present sensor, which is in a Carry device. And that I think works really well in apartment setting because i've struggled to get IT to work in my my home because I have so many people in my home.

He uses millimeter wave sensor, which is a really interesting development in the smart homes sensors, radar sensor, to use presence detection versus motion detection. So if he's sitting in his living room watching T, V, or your lives won't turn off because you haven't moved. So and I I find that, that is a really interesting sort of development in the smart home.

And for Chris, the fp two does work with home assistant. We can include in the showed tes as a great blog that this one I wrote exactly about how to integrate IT with home assistant and what benefits there are. So you for which I think more automation, you know making your home smarter because things like senses, context senses, you can take them with you when you leave to.

But yeah, so there's lots. And then the one the final thing, I would say that a lot of people are interested in and works for both renters and home. And as is a smart security system, there's a lot of benefit there, especially because if you get integrate with, say, your door lock in your video doorbell, if you want a video doorbell. So there's a lot this my home has to offer for renters.

And they just seem like, I think the stigma that anything beyond the very basics requires opening up their walls. I think it's so much less true than IT was even just a couple of years ago that a lot of the suffered decried ing used to be a lot of work and now it's a lot of like battery maintenance.

And that's kind of IT in a lot of these cases, especially like I think about ring has an a really good job of this, of making IT basically that you can just hang a doorbell on your well. And like I have a lot of feelings about people in, especially like apartment buildings and condo buildings who have video, adore bills that just go out into the hallway. Yeah, I have a lot of like moral quandaries with that. But the idea of what I can accomplish for you, this up in general, is a lot simper than IT gets created for for people. I think that especially if you've gone through the work to set up a rest very pie running home assistant, like you have the chops to do most of the smart home stuff that is available .

to at this point for yeah and there is there's a lot. And in terms of the door bell, actually, I just this actually happened last week. So this is news for you on the verge cast alo has some good battery power door bells, and their first generation one just became.

Home kick compatible a car. There was only one battery, paradol bell, that worked with apple home before. That was the a cara.

Now the aro essential al first gen battery powders. Bell will work with home IT, so not home at si video, but with home kit. So Chris, if you were thinking about video doorbell, those two would be good option.

Cameras are a whole different thing. And as you say, especially if you're recording your neighbors what past your house every morning, but if that something you're interested in, those are two good options. And the or lock and then motion, get some senses gets get your house to be really smart. And that's really fun, I think .

especially if if you're the type who wants to sort of experiment and play, just adding sensors and smart clothes to everything you can think of opens up so many things. And for me, it's like most of the stuff that i've tried and up being sort of useless, but just it's just fun to play with me like, okay, whenever I get to like the fourth step to the basement, what should turn on, I don't even know.

This should have some stuff happen and I just that and and the sensors are cheap and then they're everywhere. They're easy to pick up and move around. And I think I think that's a good, cautious like bison sensors spend this saturday playing with them and and see what works for you.

I like that a lot. See what what happens.

awesome. right? Chris, I hope that helps. Jan, thank you. Was always thank you. All right? That is IT for the verge cast today.

Thank you to everyone who is on the show, and thank you, as always, for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about at the verge that com. We have Chris sonos reviews.

We have a movie pass movie crash review everything you want, plus again, what's going on a test W W C next week. There's lot to see. Check out the verse that come.

And as always, if you thoughts, questions, feelings or headphones you think we should buy instead of the s email us at verge cast at the verge dot com called a hot line eight, six, six verge one one. I particularly wanted hear what you're excited about. A W W C.

We have a bunch of W W C stuff coming. AI stuff. Presume for next week, a few of us will be on the ground.

Really want to know what you think is coming and whether you're excited about what we're going to see from apple in this next year. So first cast of the verge, I com, eight, six, six verge one one we love hearing from you. This show is produced by any mino, the James and wilpon.

The first cast is a verge production and part of the box media podcast network. New alex, will we be back on friday to talk about? I said, W, C, plus a, will see you then rock all.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, italian, from decoder with new IP top, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What part are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment firms and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with new life presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your podcast.