The good, the bad, and the Humane AI Pin
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IT walk into her a chest, the flagship podcast of appreciating the good vibes on the hardware.

And that might be the truest .

one we've ever time. Yeah, that's what we do. But we totally .

get at this room to make things even Better, by which I mean functional. Hi my friend. You like David pearce here. hi. X gris here. hi. It's a big week on the verge hast it's like maybe the biggest week we've ever had because David has reviewed the human AI .

pin .

yeah IT has come full circle. This really does feel like it's been a very funny experience in that like almost exactly a year ago was that first ted talk that imran children, the C. E.

O. Coffee human, gave that we were just like, this is nothing. I don't believe that we basically SAT here and we're like, I don't believe in me of the things that happened in this demo. And IT turned out that sort of true get to IT.

We will get to IT. And if you are a fan of arguing about the vision, boy, get ready for a year. The main score from totally opposite perspective, i'm ready.

It's very good that happened. Taylor swift is back on tiktok. Um I have some completely responsible gossip to share about the status of tiktok in the universal music group.

I love this. And so if you're listening and you feel like you've always wanted to substantiate at some gossip, get ready because I am looking for you. Ah there's southern news. Open a eyes and copyright trouble is always so as full.

This is really important news, which is that cobo announced color e readers. Yes, all three of us are just stoked. The three of us thinking it's just alex.

alex and again, the flesh .

podcasts of appreciated in the goodby he was on.

Yeah, exactly. That's one hundred percent.

That's yes, in the most important news of all, which is that SONY has a new party speaker.

exactly.

We're prety realize of big verge cast. Yeah, if you like the verge cast, you're gonna love this verge test that I can promise you. Let's start. Let's get right into IT. David, you magnetically clipped a robot to your body for several weeks.

Warm as I to do IT got warm.

IT only ever spoke to me, and I believe korean or arabic. No, because every time I tried to use IT was locked in the transition loop. So I I have no experience for that. What you gave IT a four, you said I didn't work, tells about IT.

sure. So the whole idea of the pin and this, like new generation of eye gadgets, is that your smart phone is actually slower and worse than you think. Basically, the idea is like, instead of taking out my phone and locking in in doing something and tapping on screens and typing things, I should just be able to, like, touch the thing on my chest and IT should do things on my behalf. And I think that is like a super interesting idea. Anyone who has ever watched a sieh I movie ever sort of knows what that looks like. Uh, and so I spent a couple of weeks like running around asking IT questions about where I was and asking IT questions about the world and using IT to try to play music and try to know make phone calls which you can do on the A I pen and you can send text messages and IT notes for you and all the different of and um I am simultaneously more bullish on AI gadgets than ever and so deeply done with the human A I P.

I wanted unpack that and I will say bizarre a huge split in the comment base on the review. The commenters on youtube love the review as far as I can think. You did a great job.

You, your body bend stress. We had to talk to him. He's called in the show later, later today. They are like, this is great. We will all deserve you, all the things. And then our commenters picked up on the inherent intention of what David just said, which is this product is horrible, but i'm excited about this category, and said, why nothing about this product has proven that this category is viable, which I would say is a fair criticism. Why do you think this thing which does not work, I believe, is a sentence that is, in your view, made you excited about this category?

So this I mean, this is what we're going to get into arguing out at the score, right? Because it's not that IT doesn't work ever. IT works seriously.

No, this is like there were a handful of moments in two weeks of testing this thing that were like legitimately eye opening, right? Like standing in pen station, tap the thing and like, tell me what restaurant this is in if IT has good reviews. And somewhere between one and one thousand seconds later, IT comes back and gives me like real information, like people like this on the menu.

IT has four point three cars in google. Uh, people say it's a little expensive, but the services are friendly like that. That is like a astonishingly useful thing to have done for me.

I just truths so like one of the things i've discovered is like I have a dog so I am forever walking the dog, uh and I have a kid who is often only happy in astral's so I am just forever out walking in one thing that I do when I am forever out walking in my neighbor d is I end up like remembering things I need to do. So I am constantly like pulling up my phone and using siri to set reminders or add something to my calendar or just write a note down in my note APP. Every single one of those things Better to do on a device that is touching my body bradly IT was Better on my chest than IT was in my pocket.

Uh, all true rates. So they were like a handful of these moments as I O having this thing that actually does abstract away all of the things I have to do to get into my phone and just lets me say the thing that in my brain, and it's then out of my brain. awesome.

loved. IT. great. The problem with the pin is that IT doesn't do IT enough. The problem with this whole category is that, like, I know how to write down a note in my phone, and I know when IT has works, it's annoying, but IT works and I can do IT reliably every time the pen I just stopped trusting was the problem. So it's like when IT works, it's cool. And IT worked just enough that I was like, there is, there is something here is just so far away from that, something at this moment that it's like, I can't in good conscience, ts, to tell you to even try IT. But like, you should want the good version of this to exist.

So I know you talk to humane through the course of the interview. They can't have been surprised by their own, one assumes are not hopelessly surprised by their own product. Why did they ship this out? Did you get a sense?

I I don't know the answer that question, and I have asked that question to myself into them many times.

I think the honor truth is like there comes a time in the process of making hardware where you just have to ship the anything like it's just really expensive to not ship a product, especially a product that a lot of people have given you money for and you have made many of um I think if you were to rewind a year and tell humane, this is the point where they would be now, I would bet they would not be shipping this product now because they also have they claim this gigantically software of the coming this summer. That is really basic stuff like setting timers can set a timer. That's like the joke about assistance is the only thing they can do is set timers. The joke about serious as they can only set one human can said any IT can take any.

And so AI systems are uh, bad at math. I think hyste ics is a thing and so counting must be very chAllenging.

It's coming, getting her.

But yes.

so there's this big software of they supposed to come in the summer that's going to add some of that functionality and fix some of the things that don't work now. So my guess would be they want to ship the like August version of this thing today, and that is just not where they are. Uh but like there comes a time when for a variety of reason, you're just locked into when something ships and it's really expensive and really hard, especially for the first generation hardwork company to delay by months and months.

Yeah, it's just hard IT would take IT in pieces because there's a line in your review. We saying none of this is ready, not the hardware, not the software, not the AI. That's that's all of IT, all the things that's all that i'm ready. That's one thing you very clearly already for this thing that he's ready to go.

There is a .

picture in the review of David using the thing where he just looks like the world's happiest secret services. No, he just he's just beyond thrilled to be like that. They want to suggest in whisker ing a secret, you know.

So you're obviously ready. But the thing is already IT what's out of the hardware? Three pieces. Harvard often are A I. What about the hardware?

Already the hardware is kind of in the thing. We see a lot with first generation hardware, which is just it's full of little monkey books. Uh the biggest one by a mile is thermos. Like this thing is small. I have been sitting right .

here like it's it's it's the office and amazing yeah IT is .

like not a large thing and it's it's a nicely thing. It's made of aluminum. It's pretty derby. I've dropped IT. I threw in the wash the other .

day to see it's pretty big to put on your chest.

I mean, yes, IT compared to all of the other chest wearables that i've had in my life.

I mean it's it's like broke size. And how many people do you know that we approaches that aren't eighty and .

at church yeah but huge market though most people are sitting an enormous and of wealth that they .

have to transfer to their child I mean.

yeah and they can just transfer human but it's song, you think but bigger than that should .

be I think yes yeah yeah I think that's exactly right. IT is both too big and impressively small for short but the biggest I mean, i'm holding IT now. I've been holding into my hand for fifteen seconds and its warm like i'm not kidding.

That's like a real thing that happening right now and that is the overwhelming issue rate. IT gets warm when you use IT um IT gets warm so quickly when you use IT that are pretty frequently overheats and shuts down IT gets warm when service is bad. Which service is often bad because they are using like they're using some weird N V N O of t mobile that doesn't really work.

So it's just like again, these are things that like most of the time when we review a first gadgets from our company. It's like this like the first pixel watch had a lot of little tiny hardware books, and that's the kind of stuff really. okay.

This is the sort of stuff that with an extra couple of refs of the tooling and engineering and working on this, you actually start to solve this. So there's like in the hardware, there's not a lot that I would call like show stopping the bad. It's just that none of IT is quite ready. But the main thing that really like causes problems is like IT would be nice able to use this thing and you use IT and it's like you can't anymore because it's too hot and with .

your skin right so gets hot and shut itself down, which um if you were call was happening a lot in the demos, the trade show there. I think we everyone write fully IT was like, well, trade bad.

wifi bad, self signal IT feels .

like you were trying not using IT on the floor of a trade show in beran. I mean.

I do love a trade show. Uh, no, I was using IT. I was using IT at my house.

I was using IT in our office. I was using IT on the streets of new york and in washington, D. C.

Like one of the weird things about reviewing this is that it's not a gadget you're supposed to use. Very much like the whole point of IT is that you don't use IT all the time. You can just like quickly accomplish the thing you need to accomplish and put IT away.

And to that, I would say it's seven hundred dollars. That's insane. But so it's like IT was a weird thing to test in that sense because it's like, yes, if I use this thing constantly for several hours, it's it's gona die.

Like the battery life in that sense is bad, but you're only supposed to use IT for like a few seconds at a time, a dozen times a day. And that is very different from what IT takes to actually like, test the edges of a product like this. So I strugling with that a lot in the course of this is like, IT has this little Green laser projector that is, like, if I use that for a three minutes that ago, IT overheats and the battery that.

So that's the one that's just a flaw in the product, straight forwardly. If you use IT to display for more than a few minutes, that shuts down. There's being generous. There's never been to know.

That's just bad. How are you supose to watch you do and to in view.

as he is the author intended, right? So there's that right? Like some parts we don't working with just overheats. Then there's the battery life, which I think in all product reviewing is chAllenging because we overuse this stuff.

Yeah.

that's like our job. I tried to like alternate days between like use the hell out of this and use IT like a regular person and on the on the use the hell out of the days. I mean, I killed IT comes with the the thing itself, two extra batteries and a charging case.

And I would kill all of those a in a day of like heavily testing the thing on a Normal day, I would kill the two battery boosters and the thing, but like I would get through the day, I would charge everything overnight. They would be fun. So it's like I was kind of like being a power user of a phone on a Normal day. So like that I track is like not great but not show stopping. But it's like again, if I look at the screen, IT dies.

okay. So that's just like the thermos in the battery, right, like the seem inherently flaw. If the thing is overheating and the bats are dying too fast, then there's the screen, right, just keeping on with the hardware or the projector, which there's again, the loner review is like they try to do everything possible to not have a screen and then the this .

this thing should just have a tiny touch screen like I am. So a hundred percent convinced that for the stuff they wanted do with the screen, which is basically like simple music playback, uh, settings menus and to be able to look at a text, instead of having IT spoken, allowed to you tiny us. Screen the end.

you have to take IT off and like, look at the screen, this, I was reading that and I like, but then you would have to manipulate IT instead of .

having a clipped .

to your change.

Now you do this to down. Yeah.

I remind you that either way, i'm i'm putting my hand right here. Like my hand is out.

I have to use my this is same, less and has .

laser IT doesn't lasers. You cannot take away the lasers. I just say.

do you want a laser projective? You want to fit them with, not a smart phone. Touch Green, a laser projector. Let's go for I know how that decision was made, yes, but IT doesn't work is the issue. I watch the video. If you trying to use the menu, if you haven't seen this video, pull over in your car and just watch David like rotate his hand in frustration and then imagine that like you're any person encountering David on the street but you don't know, like it's just him rotating his hand and getting .

increasingly preferred. I really like I have been accused by a couple of people of like acting out that part and I cannot explain to you the extent to which that is not an exaggeration. The current situation like they just tried so many things yeah and if they tried too many things and not enough of them work.

And so it's like there are just so many little pieces of IT where it's like you you you hold your hand out and if IT was just a thing for lake, look at this text instead of having IT read to you out loud, great, makes total sense and actually does that job fairly well. A must still in bright light, in which case IT doesn't work at all. And you can see anything projecting like I know how you've put me in the position having to defend this device that I hate.

No, this is the heart of your review. The heart of your review is you saying that IT doesn't work and then it's broken and that no one should buy IT. I mean, like, but I love IT.

Yeah, I was so good in there.

There's like a real tension in there. I feel like it's because you have, uh, tod ler, and, you know, I todgers are notoriously bad at things. And you like, love a, you like a man. You don't know what you're do like. I could see them, dad, just like coming through .

that you were just like.

really happy about the idea like they we're try something and IT seemed like, David, I know I respect you for try. I just, do you .

remember things? Do you remember the early thing that they said about the apple watch, which is like, this is this is a closer to you and more aware of you computer. I still want that.

Like, I think that was a good idea in twenty fifteen, and I think it's a good idea now. And IT is just alarming how not close we are to that technology. But like just an apple watch plus, good theory is still a thing that I want and would use all the time, and I actually think is like a real place in our lives.

And but and now everybodys like OK, but we're going to do that, but we're going to bake in these Better language models in generate I and we're going to be able to actually put all the pieces together. And the answers is like, note, we didn't do IT yet. It's not even close. But like i'm a decade deep into being like, yeah, I do want a computer that is closer to me than my smart phone and we just don't have IT at the end of this.

We're going to rank our children and I want to ten scale and see if you're worth the ongoing construction tion fees that we're clearly paying. It's going to great. So that's a harder right? It's bugging that.

The projector doesn't work very well. Overheats problem one, then you're like the software, which I did not know, was called cause mos. Yeah C O S, M O S. Cause very good.

They just call a cosme but IT is .

definitely .

cause it's s yeah .

yeah they very good cos unrelated .

to anything .

just I think both out of nowhere is called Cosmos not yeah. I had still the same set of questions actually that I did a year ago. You want to sing to make a phone call, you have to sit around configuring a computer somewhere, right? And that is that happens on Cosmos, that happens on the website. Like what is those do is round applications.

So what is what is the point .

of interest and thing that is just a voice active in ChatGPT because it's .

not just a always activated ChatGPT, right? Like that's the the the thing that Cosmos is basically is like an overlapping then diagram of A I systems. So like when he wants to do something very basic on the device, that's one system.

When IT wants to go to basic internet real time questions, that's another system. I think it's perplexity, but I can't vote for that for sure. Uh, perplexity is on every other device that doing this.

So IT seems like a natural assumption. But basically, Cosmos is like the routing system for you wanna do a thing, where does IT go? Uh, and just the fact that that exists is part of the problem.

Because what that means is every time you want to do anything, you have to ask Cosmos to do IT for you. And then IT goes and figures out what IT needs to do. IT assembles all those tools, pings those tools to do the thing, comes back, translated all that into answer and give to you.

And you know what that does IT take. So IT takes so long. And the the biggest, overwhelming problem with the pin as a user experience is even when IT works, it's slow to the point of being border line unusable in in most situations. And like the the thing where you ask at the time and IT tells you the time so fast, just a beautiful tells me time so fast for almost everything else, IT is somewhere between five and thirty seconds of dead silence, while IT tries to do something for you. And the silence, I got some point where the really like, I wish this thing had hold music so this I could know .

IT was doing something like the computer size.

yeah, like all dial up sound and boots up to go do something you like.

Give me that actually be incredible. If IT made like fifty six came out and sound every around you like what is happening to make mom s the .

rest of the show? It's a good show.

Guys were nominated for a wedding you'd like to vote for mode.

tom, this will not be the episode that we think.

slow. I mean, this is the thing that i've been think you went a lot, right? So you ask cosme, you ask the AI printed, do something. The Operating system cost us what a symbols are, prompt or IT like. First, IT figures out if IT knows what requests you're asking what system on the back end to do the request and then IT IT assembles a prompt for you and goes and asks that system yeah .

I think that's that's about right. Um I think there are there are versions of IT that are less kind of generally I prompt basis like if it's just connecting the title IT doesn't have to do quite as many complicated things.

No, this is the reason I ask this question in that way because when you asked him to buy texas, hold them by beyonce, I think the unicode character and be once his name SHE is an accident over the e in her name is like broke IT so spat out the unicode number or like the hex code and then you know when like they broke being and turned in to sydney yeah in whatever prompt to exploit showed you like the instructions to make sydney not behind.

And people like I did that right? IT was like, esco prompt in this way. Don't tell the user of the other thing.

bob, and ask for clarification.

Don't ask clarification is incredible. Yeah, beautiful. So IT was that right? IT was like those pre rule that the instruction set right for the AI. But you are just asking to playing music, which should not require A I.

Yes, agree, right. And so that's what you're seeing there is I believe the work of Cosmos, right, which is like IT takes me saying, play music.

believe this is the work of the coast.

This is the work, the costs somewhere, neil, the grass, the score making.

actually, really.

And IT then figures out what i'm asking and to what I should go ask, but I don't. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think title is running like an LLM against the phone music. I think IT just has an API that Cosmos is lugging into to find that song.

So that's what I mean. Like the end points don't all have to be A I, but in the middle there is this mysterious AI translator that just isn't very good. And even when IT is good, it's really slow.

Did you ask human if they, anyone had ever tried to listen to beyond.

say, in their product? So they did say that particular thing was a bug and they fixed IT. And IT is true that since then I have not gotten unicode spat back at me, but IT still will not consistently play beyond you when I ask you to play beyond. So like it's is broken in a sort of less spectacular way now, but IT is still very much broken.

But this is the part where i'm just still stuck on OK. So Cosmos, it's doing prompt right like that revealed that there are some L M style prompting system happening in there and you are interacting with your voice with an L M. That then might go do stuff like play a title song through the API. yeah. So is running that model locally? Or is that happening in the cloud?

No, all of that is happening in the cloud. Uh, as far as I can tell, IT does essentially nothing locally.

So its heat is coming from the fact that IT is constantly trying to use its garbage in tens to connect a garbage t mobile internet.

Ww, it's a lot of garbage.

is a lot of garbage. I mean, I assume their garbage internet, they may be lovely, but in practice they seem not great.

I mean, it's it's very small. The whole device is very small and is doing a lot of really aggressive thermal throttle, which is not great when what you need is reliable fast connectivity. Uh, so yeah I know I I think you're exactly right.

And the first answer that human gave me as to why this thing is warm is connectivity. But again, IT didn't seem to matter if IT was good or bad. It's just when IT is connected, IT is warm and IT is connected all the time.

I will be the nice in the winter time.

like a hand warmer yeah .

i've been telling people that the comparison for me is like, you know that thing where you you you like crack the hand warmer and put IT somewhere and IT kind of is there for too long and it's not like burning, but it's like a little you ve sort of overheated one small part of your body. And that's what IT feels like .

to wear the pain. All jit, what I imagine IT, as you will get thermal run away in your phone, like your phone is like over trust to connecting.

It's talking your .

pocket for one second like is going on yeah, sometimes i'm not saying my brain is broken this way IT just feels like that happening anyway, even it's not because you have .

too many phones in your life. Oh yeah.

that may just be a verge cast very.

very but for this audience, yeah, we're to make more of sense for next thirty minutes. That's the software, right? It's running this O, S in the cloud that appears to be elm style that can go actions with other elements.

Yeah, I think that's what .

about the just the the nuts involves of IT like how do you put contacts into IT?

So at that point, they have a web APP called humane center. They all call IT dot center because the website is humane dot center. Uh, that is basically a pretty simple just way to manage your thing like it's it's the equivalent of like when you buy a device that connect your phone and you download the campaign APP till I get everything connected.

It's just that in the web. Uh, but it's if when you take photos, that's where the photos upload. When you uh do notes that your notes go IT keeps track of all of the things you've asked in all of the responses. This is like when I say i'm transcribing the thing, i'm literally copying and pasting from its record of our interaction anyway uh and the way you connect IT is right now you just go in and you log in with your google account or your microsoft count and that down the your context. And again, this is why it's so inexcusable that this stuff isn't work.

You know what else is in my google account is my email and my calender and so many other pieces of information that would be useful for my no but IT IT just doesn't have those things despite the fact that IT has access to my google account. Um but I actually like this was a little bit hard to test because as part of the review process, humanity some of that set up for me ahead of time uh which I I don't totally know why, but that is just how IT worked. Uh and so I don't have perfect out of the box set up information on exactly how that works, but I do know that I spent five minutes in the center like getting accounts connected and then never really thought about IT again.

So you can think your contacts .

yeah I think that that's all that's all it's doing. So like when I say, you know, call nei, IT looks in my contacts and finds nei and then people I know named E I and then my friend marine for some .

reason and yeah be your contacts. I just like basic stuff. You ask me to make a phone call to someone in needs, my name and my phone number of database. Did you put .

that in the database?

Or did IT sink IT from google? IT pulled that from google.

So I and I just, you can do things like you can give IT memory in the way that like ChatGPT has memory now where you can say, like remember that anna is my wife uh remember that this is the number I call the line on um and like that kind of stuff you can do sort of piece by piece manually. But like in general, I have probably multiple numbers for both of you.

If I went to call, IT would be like, IT does this thing seri does, right? It's like which number do you anna call the one I always use? Like what are we talking about? But anyway, uh, V I IT is is pulling that directly from google.

I really love that. It's an AI that doesn't remember like the favorite ite number for you automatically .

so much of the surface .

yeah that feels like just a core thing A I should solve and .

I did number all the time yeah I one a call call back I iphone. It's like there's no other phone. There's just all these old numbers haven't clear out yeah right that's a suffer anything see the suffered that another work on a phone yeah it's fine.

It's a well that like again, it's I didn't do well on that much in their view because it's kind of the least interesting part of IT is like it's just a very simple device management APP. Like if you have ever been in the settings for your google account to like see what apps it's connected to you.

It's just that the reason action is all the stuff wants to do, like photos thinking, does IT send the photos to google photos by itself. If to download them and up for them.

you have to dowle them in, up with them, which is, I would argue, maybe the single biggest gap in this. Because if you're humane, you can solve a lot of your future problems just by connecting to other services, right? Like IT can do reminders like fine, just pipe two reminders on my phone doesn't do calendar, that's fine. I've already logged you into my calendar like there are so many of these things.

right, but then they can't right. Like ideologically, they're like that stuff is bad. We're doing in the new way with prompt engineering.

That's right. And I think what you'll see over time, I would bet, is uh, humane. Humane has big ideas about people building stuff for Cosmos and like being sort of its own APP universe. But I think pretty quickly you're going start to seek to the other way to and just plug into a lot more services and then the pin becomes like a universal input system for all of your other systems, which I think is a way more compelling idea than having to be its own like self contained universe.

sure. Right now.

shut down, down of use IT from more than a couple minutes. I come back to the okay. So that's hardware that's causing most software. And in the last thing you said, we're thing is the most the biggest one to unpack, which the AI stuff isn't ready.

What do you mean that? I don't know if you guys know this, but A I is a liar sometimes. And so I would put IT into like three buckets, right? There's like the stuff that just straight up doesn't work. We are like I need to set a timer or like there's a piece of information that I need that this tool does not have access to you. Right now, one of the things that.

Uh they showed at the very beginning in those early demos was nutrition stuff ff for you like point IT at I think he was a handful of omens in that first demo and or like a chocolate bars and you ask, like, is this good for me? Uh, and that those features just don't work yet. What I can do, I discovered, is read the label sometimes, again, sometimes, sometimes I couldn't read a label on a bag of checks x and tell me if IT was healthy, but I couldn't read a label on a box of terrible s until me, IT was healthy.

So that doesn't make any sense. Very great. So there is a set of things that can do and like the nutrition stuff, just doesn't exist yet. That's like a feature day invented for that demo that is not yet on the pen.

Then there's stuff that sort of occasionally works because A I is a liar sometimes and I feel like my favorite example that was like running around asking IT to sort of tell me about the world, right? And it's like IT has this visual called vision that IT you say like look at this building and tell me when it's open or look at this restaurant and tell me if IT has good reviews. Uh, sometimes he gets that right. And again, it's very cool when IT does and other times it's just full lies.

IT told me there are a bunch of great moments like this in the video where we were down at the new york stock exchange, and there was this company called ride ryde that I I assume he just IPO that day so that he had the big band or outside, and I pointed that, and I said, look at this and how your company that is, and IT thinks, and things, and things, and things and things, and then eventually goes. This company is called lift. Very confident, so confident.

And sometimes I would.

I would miss identify buildings that would tell me I was in completely the wrong place in new york city. He told me the bricklin bridge was the tribal bridge with absolute one hundred percent confidence. Sometimes IT would break and just describe the scene around me.

I would be like, what bridge is that? And he would be like in the scene, there are two polls in the water and buildings across the way, and unlike what are those buildings and IT would be like their buildings okay, close. Um yeah.

And then the third thing is just stuff that IT just constantly fails at all the time, which is like things that I should be able to do uh and just can't like ma phone call where IT was like half the time. Truly I would say like call me I Colin a texas somebody and I just wouldn't do IT and I think like there are a bunch of problems with this. Uh, I also wrote about this company this week called aboard, which is doing some really interesting, like visual AI information organization stuff.

And they were doing a demo for me and he at one point, like types in the prompt and just nothing happens and his cofounder was like, oh no, what would you think went wrong and he just cause h just just the AI and it's just like it's it's like a little like feral animal that you like him quite trust. But it's like sometimes around being cute and you're like, oh, what I and so like, that's just true. And so you're trying to interact with this thing that sometimes just decides IT doesn't like you and doesn't want to work. Other times is just a moron and just can do lots of stuff .

a point at once again, you're describing .

a taller and you like child, yeah.

sometimes you just why you, why you trying to kill yourself?

Kid, right? Just stop. IT right directly.

yes. yeah. Earth anything .

as he likes to .

pick up the dog's waterbed and just poor all over himself and they get to upset .

about how what he is you maintain everyone said.

but so that's the thing and it's really it's the big stuff can do you save over time, right? Like there are there are features you can build that's that I understand how we get out of the IT lies unpredictably and at random and about everything. This is like the fundamental problem of the I to be right now, right?

It's like I spent so much time asking a question, even a basic question like and IT turns out like half my search history is just asking questions about things my dog ate like, is he going to SHE going to die because he ate this? And, uh, the answers usually, no. So that's good. But I found myself. I would ask the pin that question, I would give me the answer, and then I would have to get out my phone and check, yeah, just to make sure, because I don't trust the AI, because you shouldn't trust the AI, and I IT just completely defeats the purpose, and that we're so far away from these things being reliably honest and reliably fast and reliably useful, that it's like, what's what's the point?

So the thing that i'm stuck on is you stack the unreliability and this product, right? You have Cosmos, which appears to be some sort of a eye system that's like parsing a request and figure out what to do. And then often it's going to another AI system, which is ChatGPT.

In a lot of cases, that feels like which is unreliable and it's specific ways or perplexity, which is an unreliable, it's specific ways. I perplexity to compare how long a car i'm thinking about buying is with my current car, and I just couldn't figure that out. IT was just like the length of a cheap grand charity is not available and I like, I pray, sure, it's available.

Yeah.

that's A I ask again, I said, please provide me the link of the cheap printer.

No.

that's very your word job. Just go get if your search .

and just do IT figure this out.

But that's like you're stacking IT up, right? You're stacking up one unreliable L M. With another one, with potentially another one. And IT just feels that you get to a place where it's it's fun, but all of that is almost guaranteed to have a mistake .

about a allus yeah, I had a call with the you mean the day before the review went live just to basically be like, hey, this thing is not kind just like no surprises want to let you know it's coming and this is the thing we do with a lot of story like you you should not be surprised by what's coming more general yeah.

yeah. And I had questions and .

I like if you want to respond to some of these things, let me know and that was just starting about something. But I started by saying, here's what I want to understand is like a lot of these things just straight up, don't work. And I can't figure out who's fault to this.

Like, is that yours is as hardware builders? Is that yours as software builders? Is that the AI models underlying a lot of this is that the end points that don't know how to interact with the L L lands, like who is IT and shelia ally?

Just laugh and and the answer is kind of everybody. But the problem is you're exactly right. Until all of that stuff is good, not just one part of IT, but until all of IT is extremely reliable and fast and good, none of IT works. okay.

So I will come to the heart of the matter here on verge cast, which is I read the review in drafts. I did not receive a no surprises phone call. I just read in google locks. And IT bought tom. David gave IT four out of ten, and then he left himself and note that said.

maybe this should be a three.

I was told at the comment I said should be.

and you should give IT a three L L. Was the entirety of your comment.

I think I made myself clear. We've just described a thing that overheats that does not work for more than minutes at a time, who software often confused by the existence of bianca, unforgivable thing. And IT was relying on a number of a systems that, like you consistently, in may, murder your dog. That seven hundred dollars, I think, is what I would say with a twenty four.

you have to yell the Price of l. And so many times.

is that not a three where the extra point come from?

Pierce IT, honestly, there's a decent chance I should have been a three.

I was like hong, like I should take. No.

i'll tell my logic and you can tell me whether it's fair or not. A A three in our score, I believe the exact phrase is bad that that is the first word next to three in our review rebrith. And I think four is like multiple outstanding issues, I think is what is said.

And so it's somewhere between those two things, right? And for me, I I tilted the scale based on there were enough things that I did that we're cool and valuable. And I opening that I wouldn't just call IT bad like I I call IT broken on purpose, right? Because it's like IT is not this is not a stupid product, is just not a good product. Uh, and I think again, it's very possible to like I would not tell anyone to buy this problem.

Seven hundred dollars, twenty twenty four hours a month.

funny coming.

That is very good.

good vision.

I saw that the score published this morning, and I thought myself, I know exactly how you would you rather eight.

eight human, a ipds or one .

vision for taking the cash? Just give me the .

cash to be here. It's also only five human pants. But 不是 因为 i yeah， I am still torne between those two things and the the time breaker for you was like I was honestly, I think the same as the time breaker for you was like this occasionally does things that are awesome and I don't know how I don't know how to factor or that in IT doesn't do IT often enough IT doesn't do enough of them. But IT occasionally does things that you're like, oh, I see IT now and I had I had just enough of those moments .

that I was like like you spent a long time with a thing yeah and then you write about what it's like and then someone else reads IT like, no.

and put a lot. See, I, I, I review. And I was like, you know, the four make sense because I could see his affection for, like, what they tried, what they attempt, that I could see like he was like, no, there's some cool shit happening here.

Seven hundred dollars s dollars a month, three times you.

I think the fairest criticism .

you can give me of the scores. Res, I think if a bigger company had made IT, I probably want to give them to three.

Yeah.

but it's a small I think I think I might have given them one point just for a start up. Tried to do a hard thing.

yeah. I buy that ultimately.

which I don't think I realized until I had published, but I think that might be what I did.

But I think that's OK right.

IT is IT isn't right. Like IT doesn't make the product any Better. What IT least like, uh, I think I I think I might have given IT like I think if google had made this thing and IT was this exact thing, I think I probably would have been .

slain harder on IT. Yeah, because google also wouldn't have the same excuses, right? Like, I think humane has some real fundamental acceptable excuses. I mean, not when IT comes to money. IT has a tony money.

It's not .

lacking for money, but IT is lacking for that experience, putting this kind of product out into the world on a consistent basis and taking a big swing. And like google doesn't well.

google have put this that one they would have lead IT and full like a long time ago.

I would have been plastic.

Yeah, it's still wouldn't have properly work with you. Uh, that's a classic. And then we were to taking a point off like a print deduction because they would have killed IT near yeah yeah. We would have had no further updates to be available for this problem.

But in fact, that's what happened with their last attempt to like a wearable.

We're deducting the point at the google free death point I just coming off. I look, I buy the know to start. They did a hard thing.

But the way they talk about IT, actually I will connect you to the vision through the way apple type of the vision pro definite affected how I reviewed the product in the end at fair IT as fair is um uh humanity and start up affects your perception of the product um and it's like they can't IT couldn't do IT could not IT couldn't stand the weight that was being placed on the marketing, which is also one thousand percent true of human absolute right. And like today, the joke at the top of the show, you may put out their statement in response, solar reviews. I don't think they were surprised by these reviews now.

And they said, big things are all the review of fee back on the AI pen. It's been a wild ride for lunch. So now hearing from all of you is super valuable.

The team appreciates the good vibes in the hardware and potential. It's knocking, but we told you get at this room to make things even Better. Well, all we we're all years and how we can up our game, especially with Cosmos OS. Your insights are gold guidance. We can improve of making a up in Better for that we use that is hundred native degrees different from how they talked about this thing until yesterday?

Yeah.

right. And there's something there that I think is just really interesting.

I would give them eight percent more credit than that. I think if you look at humane, in the last several weeks, they've been putting out this stream of like videos and such showing people how to use IT, and they're been making more jokes at their own expense. I mean, you go back to that original launch.

video. IT is the most ludicrous, sly self, serious like it's video, where in run in baths in IT, like looking sad as they use their pin. You know, the video is absurd, and it's it's extra absurd now having used this thing because they treated as if they invented fire and like it's proposal.

But I think recently, for whatever reason, they have they have pulled back a bit and been a little more honest and open about what this thing is and how IT works in some of the limitations and all that. And I think that's good. And I I do I do wonder and I have wondered many times, if they had launched this thing more the way rabbit has, which is like, oh, look at this fund.

Silly little toy we made isn't a cool looking if I would feel differently. Uh, I don't know. I'm getting arrived in two weeks and i'm very curious to see i'm so excited how IT feels as a cheaper, much less ambitious in a lot of ways gadget. Yeah.

yeah. I think I think the score for the human pen is reflecting that ambition in a kind of a positive way. And we're reflect everything you know that is okay to be ambitious. That's why the vision, like part of the vision pro having a seven is IT ambitious IT swan for the enses IT missed real bad.

Can I just say one thing?

My vision for I just like I like to poke this at the I .

can't make I A where that everyone thinks seven is pure .

yeah .

and I would just tell cobo review .

we're going to have like a two hour verge cast on the score for I thought about filing a .

draft of this review with a seven at tenth this court just to see what would have.

But one thing of vision problem, we going to move on hot you out for the vision prows and that flix and I was on prime map. It's a brother er it's just a browse on IT web apps are saving the vision pro yeah saving .

is generous and .

you're youtube APP your netflix APP the one that act sports facial audio. I'm just turning about fair play.

Apple apples like official accounts were recommending that APP it's going to be where apps, it's going to be anything. It's going to be where that it's very good. It's so it's very good. Alright.

David, I know that you're excited about the project. They are. It's but and maybe the rabbits going .

to do with IT.

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Back, there's quite a lot in this section. We thought I was gonna A A, A lighting round, but we should just start with ten list H.

I think, yeah, well, that's how we started every verge cast. Now I feels like I love Taylor.

Who doesn't? I was on the asia cch and I mention Taylor left and he was, well, she's singular SHE. Can you can when the argument very good, he was, he was not wrong. No, but I I thought I like played the ice car.

You know, just like, no, that's not ever one can be tailor swith like heart broke across amErica that I Taylor swift famously owned their own masters, but has distribution to universal music group. Also her publishing the song writing money flows to universal, universal. You may know a bit of a spat with tiktok. They're not happy with each other.

They don't like each other.

Universals pulled all of its music off tiktok, leading to oceans of tiktok grads that are just silent. Very sad people. Ah it's a long time.

But this happened in I think on this show we talked about IT and of consensus prediction was either to get fixed right away or never get fixed yeah unfortunately Taylors, a new album coming out. It's going to get fix. Why don't know it's fixed. But Taylor's music is back on tiktok, in the prevAiling theory, is because he owns her own masters. SHE can just cut .

her own deal that the tracks, the tracks attract.

But she's got the new SHE .

got promote IT.

She's got promote IT. Lots of artists have been like kind of doing this on the site, like Olivia Robert o. I'll universe artists music there. But he made a tiktok promoting her shows using a fan edit of her songs.

It's been so fun, by the way, to watch artists try to figure this out. Like, I think the situation is terrible for artists, generalist speaking. But seeing a bunch of like that, I saw bunch of singer songwriters after this is happening, like start to play live versions of their songs on tiktok so that other people could use IT as sounds um and everybodys playing like sped up versions of their songs and like the the remixes are blowing up everywhere. It's that all the ways people are finding around this ban is just totally fascinated.

I just love that you guys have much nicer tiktok than mine. I was like, I wish I saw .

all of that.

It's all climbing out the sea over and keep .

IT that I .

will not know. Watch, oh my god, the internet .

knows they don't want to know, even i'm a person saying out loud like, yeah, I won't say IT .

tiktok like pass yeah it's .

just like like the targeting is like the thing .

and work ah not right. Audience going .

keep will not know.

No, i'm happy for you. I like, I want to be over there. How do I? How do I get to that? tiktok? I want to watch people like do cool covers .

of their songs and accuse to covers okay. So I am very curious about the status of universal and tiktok. Yeah, every social platform has an existential dependently on a music and history. If you lose those, right, all kinds bad things that happens to you. So universal is a basest label around IT has CEO a sir Lucy grange is sir a very powerful, not shy kind of brothers? Ash, I don't know if he's a almost ash.

I I think that when I hear sir.

he's look at the guy behind the guy. Pe, k, but also very famous, very powerful. He basically told youtube to cut IT out with a rik, like that stuff put up on youtube.

And he was like, cut out and a youtube cave, right? They put out, if you work, all they put out there, like a eye principles that have this, like new licensing system, they are gonna deploy that is like outside of regular copy and lots of special youtube by eye copyright law, that all the stuff they're going to do, they're doing IT at the west of universal music because youtube isn't done. Neil malham, who runs youtube, is like, this is a licensing business and like our partners need to be happy and great take up done.

But this is whatever the other labels actually happy about this. Yeah, if you look at the charts right now, top to artist and the charts are Warner music artists. Like a real thing.

That one is one of you say.

when there is a sense among some people fighting this fight that universal overplayed its hand in that sense, right? That like tiktok was the only company with enough cloud of its own to fight back against luca age and all of these sort of big swinging music levels because tiktok needed U M G. Less than u. Mg needed tiktok, and that seems to be this battle that we are still very much in middle of that. Again, Taylors of being singular is able to just clear way out of.

Well, so tick up thinks that has the power to break artists and create chair and really of moving money around because the labels make no money from tiktok place, as IT is. They make very little money from their dreams. All their money is on on spotify and this or whatever. But they create, share, like people listen to the songs and tiktok and they go to their streaming services. So IT can shift the money and especially can break new artists.

IT can break new artists and like isn't still the primary way these artists make money is performing. It's not it's not anything digital. It's all going and doing a concert and taking a lot.

Yeah it's seventy percent of artist revenue. Is that side?

Yeah and this is really good, but great for that, right? Like a perfect way to prove yourself.

Yeah your on tory .

doing thing argue part of tailors recent success is because yes, of this.

Oh yeah, I mean, tailor singular as as I have been told. Um anyway, so I was just poking at this and poking this and traffic, what's going on. Uh, so the other labels are happy.

And what you would expect is universal walks. The other label s so like we also want a Better deal, we're going to walk. And the other labels together collectively pressure tiktok and cutting them Better rates.

But because of this dynamic, which is where the big bad label universal with all of the artists walk, including Taylor, uh, the other label s got a benefit yeah you see this dynamically playing out the industry. Now tell about the cos, but here's what i've heard and it's sketchy an answer and you can confirm this. Let me know, all the high line was basically universal. Wanted a bunch of but one of a bunch of provisions that looked like their youtube provisions um like don't do bad, I have their content and they wanted in increase, obviously tiktok sym yeah that's I got for you.

That sounds that sounds like why this would break down.

So like if you know you know let me know I would love the actual the al terms, but the sense I get is that there's money which should be solvable, but money is usually solvable. But next to IT is a bunch of stuff that looks like what universal wanted out of youtube, which is we want some special AI stuff, AI terms and like this is not happening yeah .

and take life is just very different company than youtube and google, right? Like like their motivations for all of this is very different. I was seeing today there is a story, and I think the information about how tiktok was looking into working with companies to developed like AI avatars to Better sell like you, they don't care who's on the platform, they can monitise IT. So I think they're much lessons synthesize to make these deals. And then youtube was .

I think you I think tiktok is a danger to itself that I think they .

are so rapidly turning .

that thing into the home shopping newark and just making IT so commercialized.

And I think in a way that's really putting people off with a story on this site this week about from v because he called, she's going to calling on a lot of these of gadgets we see on tiktok. And in the first one, SHE did SHE spent her own money, like three hundred and fifty dollars, because there was a wind that would make the skin beautiful. And like some of us, just like our going to be doing in glowing in people.

ah wait.

let me guess, can I guess I bet IT didn't .

work unclear what did .

work was the foo the like .

that the massive, massive regret he had? And and and that's like we're seeing that constantly. We take talk, they just constantly selling crap. There's a nut crap. Some of that seems .

to be workable. Crap is fine. Yeah, you're good with crap OK. You can stage convincing legal defense on crap there. But no, I totally great.

And I think in general, tiktok is this platform that is not interested in being tied down to anything like IT moves so fast culturally, IT moves so fast technologically that you don't get the sense that is interested in having any rules for anything for any reason. And youtube is just so much more sort of lower case and upper case mature than that, right? That IT is like learning how to play by these rules in order to be around for a long time.

A tiktok just wants to move a million miles an hour in every direction all the time. And I certainly enjoy tiktok less than I use you because of that. Like the platform is sort of unrecognizable from what I was even twelve months ago.

Now yeah, that sort of like twenty, twenty one tiktok is is gone. Yeah no, I maintained a list of tiktok that should be PHD theses and media studies and many of them are deleted. Now they're just gone like the craters have quit.

They've pull them down like they just don't want to be part of anymore. And there's something about that. Words like things is getting so commercial so fast.

So like, I can't tell you how many ads I see now and it's just got it's mainly those lanovitch ad phones and they got been like me, I love these lanovitch ad phones. Apple doesn't want you to know how good they aren't. Like, sir, I think that's just you're lying to me.

I don't think you have that inside into apple or the novos business. why? Why is this on my feed? Why does IT have thousands of likes and views?

Is that the one the screen on the case?

No, it's like they go in your ear ear like to sty we yeah but don't worry, will will be checking amount we wanted see if they really .

are as good is I love that you're just like .

v yeah by crap that fears like do I have to enjoy i'm excited for this.

Yeah this is going to the greet series of tiktok video we ever make because all the everyone else, sometimes I was getting paid yeah.

everybody else getting paid. We're just like, does that actually work? Let's find out what and IT doesn't stop buying IT. I look.

I think between the universal stuff not having a catoe and not for what I can tell, making any steps towards a resolution, eventually, all the other label deals are going to come up in. The labels might be short term thinking and like they're getting benefit. Now all of them are actively talking to all of the platforms about AI stuff.

All of them they do not want their stuff trained upon. They do not want the videos that their stuff that you used didn't trained upon. They want A I controls and like some of the platforms have like weird like they have to make a distinction between the kinds of A I you use.

So if you roll up to our spotify and you don't use AI, so what do I was like, do we ve been using ml to do our players for like a hundred years? Yeah like we're going to keep you like. So there's this whole education process happening, the history which is fascinating.

Um other interesting companies or like tools that use A I D like help you felt her sounds, I pull out steps like they're in the same conversation work. This isn't that. This is the bad thing. Yeah but it's all got everyone thinks A I is generative. A I yeah .

I noticed that it's really consistent and really annoying. Yeah I like somewhere James is just .

um but I just think like the next turn on for tiktok is like this rapid I mean, the term is Carried out tournes term. It's and certification right where they gave a lot of value to users. IT built a huge user base and now is like a gorilla trying to rex tract that value from its user base.

I feel people are about, you know what? Instagram rules exist. Youtube shorts exist. I don't have to do this here. Also make yeah .

there just other ways to spend your time. And I don't know, I think where we're about to hear, have A A turn from this real love of the short, super feminine videos to something more stable novels.

Yeah.

schools where everybodys gona be doing? Only schools.

that only schools is a hello, a name for a property. Just just just like shakespeare nudes.

That famous, famous writer of schools.

William shakes here, sorry.

But I do think we're gonna like a change in how how people are consuming. Like I I think there's there's a rapid moment of change yeah and how we consume media and what we're consuming and what we prioritize. Ze, and i'm there's so much happening in this space, we're going to talk about a little bit like what's happening with movies and and streaming a ton is happening there, and it's happening really quickly.

And now we're having the same thing with social media. These are always we consumer media, and they're all in this moment of enormous transition. And what does that look .

like on the other side? Alex, you are so close to pitching quippy that I just I just want IT.

It's you're what you want is I think what the future is, is actually like an APP where the whole video will change format when you flipped, when you turn the phone.

reminds a show that's only at night yeah .

IT will only launch the .

shows come out at night. David, have you ever asked the aim of generate you at newton one?

Ah, now I could, but we'd get the explicit tag on on the high cast. We can have .

that actually this brings us the other big story of the week, I think a big nearest peace on open eye and google and all the rest finding wae to generate more training data. I think open is getting in and in a lot of trouble here. They very start up.

They played really fast. And right, ask for forgive us, not permission boobs. We are now the hottest company in the world. We have billions of dollars and microsoft nerves, and we're getting .

sued by the time yeah like they ask forgiveness that permission works when you're not a super powerful company and you you don't have a ton of money behind you, works a lot less when you have microsoft money bags.

Microsoft behind you? yes. Uh so OpenAI needed more training data to train G G P T four a developed a system called a whisper which transform youtube videos trained and over a million hours of youtube videos.

That's not great. There's a little back and forth in the media going on about this. Ah so john a stern and while you turned, we may mentioned this particular thing before, but join that was talking to mirror the city of opening. I SHE said, did you train any new two videos and mira in every way possible said, I don't know.

which is insane, while also making a face that said, yes.

Um okay uh and the neil moon was on, I believe, blomberg um in the asses in question and he was like, well, if they did, that would violate our terms of service .

but IT also in that seemed new york time story wasn't there bits about how google had done had also trained on some youtube? Deo.

yes. So google owns youtube. So this is very chAllenging for google. So google is built. And I I say this just as a factual matter.

Google is built on a very expensive view of copyright at law, and IT has aggressively expanded the boundaries of copyright law throughout its existence. So the the very idea of a google index like requires you to go read a bunch of data. A google image search requires them to host copies of lots of images.

That was, uh, youtube I com famously suit google for a bunch of stuff on youtube. IT was found out later. But I come employees uploading video youtube to promote them in the echoes of the tiktok situation.

Uh, but they be time like you be. Youtube exist. So google just a constantly expands the boundary of people a lot like as a function of its existence.

That's a thing that google books, we're going to can all the books in the world of that permission to make an nex of them and then convince a judge at this will summer books that worked that that worked. Google won those cases when I was like a cot bug, you know, just a bunch of goofed bulls. We got sides in the office here. You like the judge. Dell PC know that amazing are over again when .

the theory behind all of those products was to help people find them. Yes, yeah, really IT wasn't always true. But that was, at least the story was that google is saying we are going to we are going to injust this stuff in service of helping people find them and go back to you, the creator of them yeah.

we're we're index all these links and then we're going to send you to the web pages we're linking to. We're not just all these images. Then you can go look at the images.

Ferial fine, but IT is also true. The judges were evaluating a service that existed, unlike A C. R. T. Monitor, in the end, in the computer room.

Yeah, and google was a bunch of like twenty old kids, and they were just just like a different company, a different time, a different company, different caster characters, different relationships to power pub babb. You come to now and you have open a eye headlong into a dispute with google about training on youtube. You have google in a headlong dispute with its own creators.

But whatever the youtube terms of service, a google expanded in terms of service, recently, all these are you, the new york times? Open a eye. You have all these.

All is happening, science ltd. eusden. Are all these conflicts happening simultaneous? And none of these I just none of these companies are a sympathetic as google was.

I think it's because it's they're so nakedly doing IT for money in a way they weren't put for, right? Like like the cost or the benefit for for regular people is is much lower now than I was before. And I think that's what we're seeing with a lot of that.

Just the general tension around generative A I is IT feels like, okay, we are we're devaluing things that we tend to feel very, very like very strongly about all the effort to make. Arment, Richard, yeah. And shockingly, people don't anna do that? I'm surprised.

So a very funny part of the story is meta, how empathetic company on the scale things I was suck now that he's ripped with the shaggy hair in the good year, he come back here and um they want to train to do so bad they considered buying Simon and duster just a straight up book publishers. They just just on the books. So that complicate words. That's crazy. That's just a crazy place for us all to be.

I like this new york times story. I really encourage our audience to go read that it's called how tech giants cut quarters to harvest data. AI came out on sunday this under if you you're listening to this on friday, I came out this on day.

It's really, really good. And I think what really struck me, the big takeaway I came out of the story with, was that these companies have all recognize there is an intrinsic value in creating cool stuff, in putting IT out into the world. They recognize that, and they're knowing how do we make machines copy all of that, and so we can do IT poor.

like we can do IT .

worse for more money. And I think, like, that was just a really like demoralizing thing, I think to read as somebody who does create things and that's like my job. I was like, oh, that that sucks. But the story was just fascinated. And because I was just like they're in such a race to get data, to buy Simon industry, to potentially steal their own products from google or from youtube and from so a clear .

problem here, and this is sort of always a problem when that comes to regulate companies as rich, is that all of this might just seem like an acceptable tax to them. So yeah, we ripped off a bunch of book publishers say our silver one is bad. Where is going to pay the money? But some of these some of them are not going to settle like I don't think series of them going to settle.

I only the time is going to sell that case for money. And so if that they lose those cases, the president is really bad. In the case that i'm just thinking about a lot is what if youtube creators pressure google into suing OpenAI or being in some open financial conflict OpenAI? What if youtube creator sue OpenAIr d irectly i nside y ou, scraped youtube and implicate google along the way? Because neither one of those companies wants to set the precedent that training A I model is copyright infringement. Yeah.

they both wanted to not be. And that was one of the things in the story was like google even like, are we are we allowed to, to scrape our own stuff from youtube and everything come about IT.

They expanded a kind of service open. I told us when we are ready about the story, that OpenAI uses numerous sources, including publicly welle data, big circle around what that means and partnerships for non public data, and that IT is looking into generating its own synthetic data.

which is the same .

multiple terms. I would just remind everyone listening to this, having something on the internet does not mean that is free to use. People are very confused about this concept. Like you can put something on the internet that does that mean that is publicly available? Like IT me, technically technically .

means IT publicly available and that people can access IT, access IT. yeah. But that doesn't mean that is actually legally published available. Yes, because there are incidents of people being like getting sued for for accessing publicly available publicly using scared quote. Here are publicly available data and that is like you aren't actually supposed to go and there are you new you .

you're not supposed to do yeah, that's bad. I would say two things to that. That one is that the president we have on a lot of that stuff leans toward IT is o to scrape websites and and you're also the one who comes on this show every time we talk about copy rate law reminds us all the copy rate fights are a coin toss.

yes. And i'm just saying like if you if open a eyes position is we used publicly available information, the death, what OpenAI believes publicly of all means actually turns to be massively important, right? And IT, I think what they mean is we clicked on IT on a website and so it's ours.

Now that seem to be the case.

Yeah yes. And i'm just saying like there's not an interpretation anywhere where that is the thing, right? And so you just sketch a point where are like any youtube creator, mr. Beast, do IT for the views you i'm saying, just tell opening. You're going to sue them because they copy your youtube oas.

I sued google for one hundred million dollars.

Give IT a no open. I am a youtube creator and I sued OpenAI. And OpenAI is going to say your videos is publicly available.

We believe that this is not hot infringement, and google is going to sit in the middle of that being like we need to protect our youtube creators. This is not in terms of service. That's what google said to us.

Google takes technical and legal measures to prevent on authorities use when we have a clear legal or technical basis to do so that google is approached. This is ours. We have contractual creators. You can just take IT. There's just a war here.

Come on, because all these companies are like we're going to go read the entire web and google like, but that's what we do, something bad and they run one closed platform and youtube and I I just could not tell you what happens next. So that's one that's just pully available. Then there's synthetic data, oh my, which is bananas.

So h all these companies now are like, we're running out of training data. The humans are not making art fascinates for us to steal. What if we train on A I generated data and I just like, you guys are gona kill yourselves?

That was the consensus of the story too. They spoke like actual experts through, like, note that bad, that that just makes all the problems worse. All the halo luCindy just get worse.

You just start going down these weird rabid holes. yeah. And then you have Kevin rusks, like, am I in love with my? That's what happens.

Yeah, sydney is like, I love myself, but also I hate myself becoming that finally the full got sydney that we've been looking for.

I think the thing that really jumps to me about the sorry just from like a purely unrelated but insane thing is that whisper was created open a ee explicitly to do this, like whispers is amazing technology and and the like speech to text stuff that is happening again. Like world journalists, we like transcribe things all the time. More and more of that is being powered by whispers.

Whisper is not like a publicly available technology that OpenAI just put out there, an open source. And anybody can have IT. IT is remarkable tech. And the idea that IT was built just to steal a bunch of youtube videos is wild.

And what a deeply bizarre, like secondary effect of all of this yeah but also, I think this story of training data becoming really valuable and really expensive is starting to be everywhere like there. There's stories about all these companies, whether you want to a train, a large language model, or you're like a creative tools company looking for images to train your healing brush on. This stuff is getting expensive.

And I think like one thing, we hear a lot as journalists. The future of the media is. Making stories that are training data for these models that like our job is going to be to report real time information to a large language model.

And that's our business. And I find out like bleak is all hell. But there is that, that future is coming where like they are going to be businesses that are made that make a lot of money just being training data and that is nuts.

There are a many people who are like, don't worry, our artificial writing is way Better than anybody. That's it's I know, but it's like it's going to be like more common.

It's like the next of click farms.

Yeah, yeah. You came to us from G. O. media.

wow.

IT wasn't always like .

it's started this one. Then .

it's I, no, I think about that a lot. You hear people talk about how upset I talk to a lot of writers and the stuff like, oh, no, our jobs are to be taken away. And so, well, the click farm jobs are going to take away that first. But those are also at the first jobs. You get media a lot of times now, especially now that is and it's like, okay, so that that on ramp is gone yeah I .

look I think the idea that they are going to train these systems on sync because of a real data and corporate wars are in full effect. I just keeps saying I know we're gonna ite about for the next ten years yeah yes, like no way I can figure that out.

I just always thought I was rely.

David, the time.

That's also like that that cycle you just described as the end of the internet seriously like google training on google created data from google training is the end of the internet that becomes an unusable disaster in record time. I keep alexa said.

SHE exactly invented quippy. Once you get enough people talking with that, everyone exactly invented ahoo. Like what if we made a list of good websites like yeah that's yahoo that's .

understand we're going .

to make a list of good websites here, the verge tom, which you can visit to which you can visit directly in your web brows er and which he is written .

by people and if we have .

a break we can come back letting around. I'm very excited about my letting round item will be a pack.

Hey its' from decoder with neither top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving. Some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in A I space, why are so many big players and t not to acquire and instead license can hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month.

I'm decoder with the liberal presented by strike. You can listen to decoder wherever you get your podcast support for the verge cast comes from the home debo. Hey, it's almost the holidays. And whether you're planning to travel or host, it's always good to have that extra layer of safety and security to help ease your mind. And now with help from the hung debo, you can stay connected and protected with the convenience of smart security products.

The hunt bo offers a wide selection of products that afford you easy control and automation of your home, with top smart home brands like ring, google, wise and Moore, from smart cameras with forecasts, surveilLance to doorbells that can be Operated from your smart phone. The home deep boo has at all, whether you're an expert or new to smart homes tech, the home deepo can help you find what works for you and your home, visit the home deeper at online or in store, and purchase your smart home products to give some piece of mind this holiday season because smart home start at the home depot, support for the verge cast comes from the home depot. It's almost the holidays, and whether you're planning to travel or host is always a good idea.

To have an extra layer of safety and security to help is your mind. And now with help from the home deepo, you can stay connected and protected with the convenience of smart home security products. The home deepo offers a wide selection of products that afford you easy controlled automation of your home with top smart home brand like ring, google, wise and Moore, from smart home cameras with four case surveilLance to doorbells that can be Operated with your smart phone. The home deepo has at all, whether you're an expert or you're new to smart home tech, the home deepo can help you find what works for you and your home, visit the home deepo online or in store, and purchase your smart home products to give you some piece of mind this holiday season because smart homes started at at the home team.

Were back. I'm going to .

go last year. There's big caps next year like it's an all cap. It's it's beautiful.

You first.

i'll go first, i'll go first. I'm going to do to act.

I'm going to do yeah the .

first one is going to be because I just have to talk about IT koo has new color e readers. They're both sitting in my house right now. They're using cali to three is exact same stuff that on next books has been using since last year.

Ah you know coli do three that technology that everyone knows and is familiar .

with and has three people listening to this podcast right now.

Yes, SHE classic three talk and I right me like catch you.

Oh my god.

it's just can quite a three .

again still worry, but they look really cool. I only gonna yesterday. I am going to play with you, but I think it's really excited about IT is kobe is probably one of the largest factories um for buying after the united states there, their amazon's primary competitor. So that was what I was exciting to be as like, oh wow, someone who actually compete with them honest doing this and is on how is a new guy and charger devices saying that color e reader from amazon, that color kindle.

It's common panel to shake things up over there.

Yeah, i'm told i'm feeling that. I mean.

how can you not?

yes.

Yeah, you think he walked in there and was like, i'm pumped. He was like, i'm not pumped. IT was work on IT thirty .

six .

hours to pup me up.

Get my pump hind. They're like.

collide three people like, I don't know what that mean, but now i'm pumped uh .

so you get when you going na view this thing you .

know i've got they're sitting in my house. I've only turned on once so far because they ve got here last night and I like cool, very excited like in lack at six p and being like, guys, guys, guys, I got packages like it's six P M, and I believe i'm going on to sleep very good.

I'm excited for these reviews full one hour of your chest, whether not we dirigo .

te that one yeah decided yeah, i'll just be for the three of us in liam. I'm sorry.

I am hi. If you want to hear more about the code to three, right to grants, are should read them.

I will read IT. Yeah that's that's the technology, please. This is the cobo libra color.

Still.

I love that. You know the display tech, but not the name of the product.

I'm just very excited .

and it's color with A U. It's very important because it's canadian. Yes.

that's one. That's one. The other one is the M P A. Remember that you be called the M P dba.

Yeah, they d of amErica .

get rid of amErica because they did.

They did were like, like the chinese work.

Yeah, we need to be more university to be more of global. So we get out of the america.

They should, on the other way, just be the motion picture of .

americans or the w just be at the world.

No.

that in part yeah.

that's what they call jack powers. But they are back. And there's big a distributor conference happening right now in vegas where they see a lot of trailers and a lot of stuff.

And they head of the MPA, the MPA, said, we want to work with congress and we are working with congress to bring back site blocking, which is no, it's just annoying yeah really like you hear from their side where they say there's a lot of pacy going on. We're losing a billion dollars a year to piracy. We want to stop that.

So we want to block sites that americans used to pirate stuff. And that's true. And you know how they they got piracy did not be a big deal.

But last time, they introduced easy to use, accessible streaming platforms. And that worked really, really well until they decided to make them really expensive. And it's like there's a direct correlation there, guys.

You're not serving your audience. And and so the npa is back. It's like two thousand and seven all over again.

I'm i'm after red a sop a people explain her one more time. Where is a luxeuil anian?

When you need him, you get ready.

probably. Hf, our audiences, there was anti piracy bill called soba that would basically forced various issues to take websites on the internet if they did pierce stuff. And alex iohanan, founder reddit, will end on the war path to stop this we wrote about, I was all angry about at the whole thing.

So pepper, you can go, look, was a real thing. And IT didn't happen. The internet waged war on congress and they into IT. And I don't think they've ever .

forgiven us no in their back back.

They're ready. Some ideas never die.

IT is such funny dish of you that like alex, exactly right that it's like, how is no one at this meeting being like, what if we just didn't make everything so horrible? That isn't a weird that all these people are desperate to give us their money to watch shows, and we won't let them so they have to do IT illegally like strange wonder how we could fix that. Yeah.

they just need to figure out a digital distribution model where they make enough money to be happy. And all of their very expensive cars will also not forcing apparently, a billion dollars worth of money to go into private and said, there might be something there if you got a.

again, alex, a kerch.

Yeah.

me up to ideas. I did.

What's your uh, mine is just the thing that I find very funny. So I think IT was last week that a mermaid's company came out with this called shine, which was a way to basically share photo albums with friends. And IT was the ugliest APP that anyone had ever created in the very bit of the universe.

It's like, imagine you had never seen an APP and you said, i'm going to design an APP in three minutes that the except this and there was some great so as including from our friend's c platformer about like the weird chaos that IT seems to be to work for his mire and all this that they went wrong um but IT has brought up this funny thing that I have come to very much joy which is that IT turns out sharing photos with your friends remains like a disastrous technical problem. Uh, it's part of the whole like blue bubble, Green bubble, apple anti trust stuff. It's a really hard thing to do across platforms.

It's one of the things that has made like google photos very successful is it's a thing you can use to share photos. Uh and so meta rolled out an update to uh, the messenger APP, which I still want to call facebook messenger every time yeah it's just called messenger that the whole update is that now you can send Better photos in messenger and people are like amp about IT where you can send like original resolution photos in messenger and they will get to their recipient good and I think that's great. But what a cool world we live in. This is like an unbelievable feature of grade yeah all .

that five g when it's just now getting to follow ize photo sharing .

yeah it's just so funny to me like we've hit this point where phones are just cameras for all sense of purposes like that is the most important thing your phone does at this moment is take pictures and video and we have not yet solved how to send those to your friends. That weird. Very well.

We've sold that in a number of billion dollar company ways.

Have we the U. S.

Governments trying to solve IT.

If you took a photo and you want to descend an original resolution version of that photo to my android phone and alex is computer right now, how would do you do IT drop .

box so we just have .

to see drop box .

and coder so that's setting possible ah but it's just .

like he was great maybe .

not drop box but I would be .

cloud right? Yeah you just uploaded IT.

That's what walk over to you and I would plug one USB c cable in my one U S, B C table on the york one. And we will just see that. And yeah, that works right? Is not a thing that totally works with .

no confusion all the time so could pass me around but anyway yeah .

could do messenger um for bruising for making .

good shine but everyone should have .

a read will link to the platform story about the internal that company is like thirty people and that story is the shockingly well source oh yeah that's like, well, no one like.

sorry yeah i've .

shot it's very good .

was the .

pick of the the same bony any help?

And by the way, he had here some like verge of a long time ago in our first office and fifth avenue, there was a company next to us. There was a horrible office. Ah uh, there is a company next just no yeah and .

I don't I do you .

know what stamps did or does but this is one verse mile was he was at yahoo and SHE was buying every company to try my yahoo relevant and one day she's snuck into our offices and bott stamp ran away again and we're like, why didn't you tell us right here .

you we want want to say hi yeah very IT looks like some sort of clothing company .

now oh sure yeah we like woke up to like a headline and tech lunch that was like yahoo by stamp and work like that there next to us. Oh no. Is very good. Here's mine. The most important story of the week, as you may know, the SONY corporation in the late one thousand nine hundred eighties invented the concept of mega base.

I love where this is going also because I know because .

i've run down mega base ah I would say altered the fabric of our reality one .

hundred percent .

across amErica and really the world. The paw uh, people would push the mega base button and things would change yeah just, you know, gravitation waves, the whole thing bumping party started happening yeah the butterfly .

effect is actually about make a base.

You add a yellow sports walk into the mega base button.

right?

World geister SONY moved away from the megabase branding in the late twenty tens, I would say was IT because .

of Megan trainer.

Ah they moved to something called extra base. Oh.

oh, I had a part of those headphones are good.

which was deeply confusing and upsetting to I .

think everyone is extra base.

more or less than base. They never answered my questions. I have demanded the very CEO of SONY come on our shows and explain what happened, and they have all uniformally refused.

I think they.

I don't think they got. I think the messages were sent away. They were put on a memory stick and that no one could read the memory stick. And that was the end of that uh, extra ase has been with us until recently, so is replacing extra base.

double extra base.

With ul t power sound?

No, no. So ny, what does the naming? Ut power sound .

is a new brand for sony's s new like party speaker products. They have a new, they have a new, uh, that a new party speaker will come to, uh, all of the new products have A U L T button on them. This is replaces the mega base or extra is button. Uh, the U L T, the ut button offer several modes. Uh, U L T one gets you deeper, lower frequency base, while U L T two delivers powerful.

punchy base.

What is mega and extra? They should have just labeled the mega. I don't understand.

Well, it's too many excess on on on the flagships .

of the U L T P power sunlight um is a sixty four pound party speaker yeah called the u tower ten which cost twelve hundred dollars.

Does he have a screen .

on IT IT has thirty four LED light zones but no screen IT has like a touch Green IT looks bananas IT really does have thirty four and really like sense um and i'm onna have one and there's not looking another and I know what you what you thought was going to have .

your life you're going to .

have IT has an x baLance ed speaker unit I know that means that sounds sick. He did just on IT comes the wireless microphone office .

are OK while .

you were saying all of those words, oh my god, the things enormous. It's so big it's literally there is a picture of a man rolling IT and it's it's like like imagine diversity. The thing where people like check a bag with golf clubs in IT .

is a yeah every silly photo that they made for this product is bananas. Like every single photo is, is in the center of dance floors, just fully four feet and never saying around.

that's how people party.

I love you so much. I can't, I can't get enough of you. And I all I wish is that anyone who tell us what U L T stance for her, I think IT is short for ultimate.

So, okay, i'm so gay. You brought this up because while you were saying whatever those nonsensical words you were saying to explain this thing, I was trying to figure out the answer to this uh, by scrolling up and down sydney's website uh there are only two things that could be right. It's either ultra or ultimate. Are there are .

other possibilities .

I like i'm trying .

to think of like .

is that a bacon um like IT stands for ultimate live upsetting .

the loud tower?

But I think based .

on again the deep .

general .

ism I be doing scrolling but on the website I believe IT is ultimate because the word ultimate appears uh I would say A A surprising number of times on this website IT waits .

more than a child but some children .

some children comes in a variety of size sixty three pounds .

more than a there probably right yeah that's more than I I like .

I don't know what .

todd er waits yeah definite it's .

like two authors so come max and a half yeah it's .

very just got this .

little Younger than max is like doing in a rough that perfect unit.

It's a measure that's good um .

I can't wait to get one of these um also the marketing material says a massive base ultimate vibe yeah which is just what I say now they're even so .

much fun in these massive ase ultimate vibe.

So from now on.

if you want to sponsor to the late round, you are officially contributing to the neither tel parties.

We're just get one hundred dollars. Put one in the back here we ve got other Sunny speakers, like other giant Sunny speakers in our office, and we can't get rid of them like SONY. I'll send them to us because they know that we care and they like, do you want this back? And I know we cost much to mount .

many days to .

this back because it's fur about after like into like the writer mr. Award was a good to fuck that. So very good. Anyway, I just want to mark, if you are a certain kind of technology fan, IT is important to know that we've gone from mega base to extra base to U L T P power sound. And I I think it's important to take a moment and say, look at new generation is here. I don't know if that generation will be defined by A I I don't know if know we defined by face computers, I don't know, but I know that this is the generation that is defined by evil. E power set.

massive base, ultimate five. Oh, David.

I forgot to ask you where the AI pin fits on the scale of wearable ble shit.

Oh.

I mean, it's it's nowhere. It's kind of value over fit linear. And I think I know the answer, which is zero about maximum villinous.

What's interesting that's true. But what's interesting about IT is I would say IT gets like a point seven five of the face .

multiplayer face. I was surprised .

at the extent to which people noticed IT like out in public there was there was a funny moment where we were running around shooting the video. And it's like A A weird thing in general because they're three people pointing cameras. That means i'm doing this. But I stood in front of the the fear, this girl and street, that little statue, uh and people were taking pictures of me as I took pictures of the freest close status IT was fantastic. But like it's very noticeable, especially understanding their sort of talking down at your chest um you like I get more looks wearing the pin than I do wearing like the rape and smart glasses .

sense lots a lot of looks. The U L T tower time, which we are sixty four pounds in us thirty four years.

Carried above your head. Say anything sale.

Here's what what you want to do. You want to advance ship from U L T one, A, U L T two. Feel like every time that's that's a reject, everybody.

And that's IT for the verge cat this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one.

The bird cast is the production of the verge and boxing, a podcast network. Our show is produced by handlon marino and lee James. That's IT.

We'll see you next week.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced club. Hey, it's lee. From decoder with the liao, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do you think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listened to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away cofounder? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the litel presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your pocket.