The real cost of the PS5 Pro
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The platform offers to sweet of specialized features and tools to fash track growth like stripe billing, which makes IT easy to handle subscription based charges, invoices and all reactions ring revenue management needs. You can learn how stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe dot com that striped out com to learn more, right, make progress. I'm looking in their chest flagship pocket, advanced ate tracing. The technology is everyone, climbers for everyday kids go to school screaming for advanced y tracing. Tell us shifts get out here.

Advanced y tracing.

He also SHE does yeah loudly and proudly at the bms yes.

demanding all SHE does talks about how .

friendly life outcries here in the studio we're together yes.

this is so exciting and we're not cgi even though the .

ray tracing looks like we are yeah look at oh then appears here.

You know how tom cruise has like made his thing that he is the enemy of motion. Spooking Taylor switch should do this for race. Taylor, if you're listening, and I know that you will, heart.

please make a thing where .

you come on at the beginning of every video again. And you've tell me how important IT is to turn on ray tracing. This is, this is your moment to do real good in the united states where.

like, pick visual finality of person.

Post about that with your cat.

I will say this. I will say that in the comments of our youtube, there is a sort of raging many conspiracy theory about whether David is actually in a living room or in front of the Green screen. And i'm we're never gonna tell you we're never going to tell.

We're also never going to tell him along the show supposed to be. We're just gona keep saying we're going over and David is gonna keep clipping a little bit. Not all the way.

I don't have ever seen David sit on that couch.

Yeah been back there.

Yeah, couch. And once .

we get retracing able on David, you'll never be able to tell if you so full volume metrics, static image of thing, or in the millions of dollars of so many.

like, oh my god, the sun hits IT the reflections.

If you're looking for more mediocre star war shows, just wait until we enabled to its boy metric.

H, there we go now. Okay, leon, this just changed everything. Now, instead of having my one maybe real, maybe static background, I get to have a new one.

Every single part get. We're doing this. I do, I will say I have a, uh, I think like eight foot wide Green screen underneath .

this couch. I.

it's a second aid for White room, right? It's the Green screen behind the Green screen. Uh, but there, the set up to make IT work with my computer was so complicated that we just gave up, which is why I don't have a more interesting background.

unfortunately. But soon we will get winning in the full volume in john father is going to direct your quest deal.

I wear the helmet.

That's how we directed the line.

can you? I'm into IT.

I think that might have been a rest actually.

And he wear a heads set. Yeah.

because he, when they made the lying king, it's like all the dollar, C, G, I. So he directed IT in a headset. I know exactly why he was in that said, but there's a lot of photos of him directly in. Okay, there is actually new, stuck about including a legitimate retracing segway to what is argued the news of the week, which is the P S 5 pro。

Not not the iphone.

but the iphone. I can see iphone happened this week.

This i'm being completely honest based on just the vibes on the verge that com P S 5 pro might be bigger news than the iphone， which I thinks there is something about the iphone this year, but also says a lot about how a lot of people feel .

about the particulars of the PS that I just just you forgot that I I was in my mind, we did a verge cast. The week ended. I took a flight home.

I was a red eye. I was asleep. I woke up in new york. That's a new week everybody. Yeah like start the government right over. Uh but here I think you're generally corrected like you know in the room and it's like very hard for me to tell because it's just an artificially hype environment. But out here in the world, even other reporters i've talked to.

interest is low. Yeah, it's not great.

Not only that happened, IT was so like disappointing that I think the general apple vibes are bad because of IT. Like a lot of people all over the internet and some of them at this website that we work at called the verge I com, who are generally people who like apple and think stuff that apple does this are like turning on the company. Like to the point worth, like is this is an inflection point where apple has lost the plot. Like that's the thing you see over and over and over now.

Yet a wild, I would say I saw john driver, who I saw t john loves at charm la style. He came to the event with armed only with a pen in a new book.

I love that increase .

I mean I think had but he had no left top um but he tweed afterwards. Apple misto save jobs like everyone else or some variation at sentence, which is a lot. It's a big one.

Uh, M G sig ler, who is also a friend or an entire blog post what happens in editor has too many products and can say no uh and part of his thesis was, uh, there are too stuck to the way Steve jobs sort of done things. And they need to change for they need to make more aggressive changes. His example, of course, being the ipad, just let IT go.

That s what just kind of like a hard diversion. You know, it's like extreme nuri, but you see that that vibe is out there, right? This this is the company is no longer say no IT IT knows it's about to make more money from services than the hardware.

So it's just making all the hardware without appointed you. I don't know, man. I think the thing that's weird for me is they're gonna ship the phones without the software is .

sloppy feeling. There's just .

something about that, that they wouldn't have done that before.

Yeah, was only a couple years ago where they did that whole thing, where they said we are gonna slow down on all of our software. Yeah, because we are going too fast and we're getting too sloppy. And then to see them just kind of do IT again, but even more aggressively is surprising, yes.

So we will see, I think, a big question that I have in general, what are any the a stuff comes to anything we're not talking about to make products later on the show, there are some interesting ones that come out.

Some stuff is happening that is legitimately interest raising, whether it's going to make all of the money that the AI industry is currently spending, who knows? But apples in a rush to ship this stuff for what I am, do I, I, I agree to David, like I to my mind, the P S 5 pro is it's generated more interest because IT is a more considered product that has a stronger point of view。 And what's going to happen next.

whether you agree with that point of view or not? Yes, 你 肯定 是。

But IT just it's it's a stronger statement of like whatever my whatever SONY thinks is next while microsoft is making the opposite states, like maybe we should shut this down, right? And like there's some turmoil, appending and industry and there there's like winners and losers. And IT just seems at least on the smart phone side. And we've covered smart friend since the data verge started, like we began this thing in twenty eleven because of smart phones. And IT feels like whatever wave that is has trusted into a like a study state even though like just over there are some of the most interesting .

smart phones that .

have ever exist like ho was at the top of C B C. That's how I know things that I broken out of gadget world is like when more mainstream martlets cover things in weird ways. yeah.

And so we looked at the top of the seen, we see website on apple day of the day after. And I was like the Normal stuff, like a right cut no, yes, who not like to see and then just in the middle of that was twenty eight hundred dollar triple fold smartphone. And I was like, that's the keyword. Like, see, like a bunch of finance press for.

tell a like I want to spend three .

thousand and it's like that is more interesting in people than whatever is happening. IT wasn't apple amounts iphone sixteen, right? There's something there is a gime knows.

right?

But there's just something. Something is up. Yeah, we're going to eat. We're going to Carry on the coverage idea. We review the phones, we have something say about them, but I am still open to audience we back and how to cover phones that are launching without the core software.

We've got ten a lot of that feedback, by the way. And I think it's interesting to me and I would say the plurality of the fox of redoute us agree with me, you in particular are so hung up on this software that hasn't launched because I would say there is a very little indication that anything in that software is going to like meaningful to change your life in .

any way like .

this is this is the the I A I story right now. As you have to tell people, you have an AI strategy and what cool products are there that exists that are matter until lots of people.

the thing is, you don't have to do that unless you totally be you get fired .

in your company is a business.

If you have, you are so beholding to the stock market, you're so behold to your shareholders that you are not actually considering what is a good product and that, that feels like what were budding up against these people chasing the shareholders at the expense of the audience.

I agree. I think it's the whole thing and actually shipping is all downside. Like yeah, when you put this stuff out in the world, that's when all the bad stuff happens.

It's it's like that deal silicon valley line, right? Like don't start making money because then people start asking why you're not making more money. Like don't start shipping AI because everybody will ask why you're not shipping Better ai like this.

Google has been through this ten times over at this point. Like IT just keeps shipping stuff in, is broken and people freak out and is bad. And IT is just knowing its core business in the name of chasing a eyes stuff and people shooting and wonder why.

But if you don't tell investors that you have an AI strategy, you won't have a job long enough to see any though. So it's like if if apple, I think this is a total conspiracy theory that is not actually what's going on. But like IT is IT is not a stupid idea to slow role this as much as you and talk IT up and don't ship IT is like a pretty solid save your asking.

It's totally out of character for them.

It's totally but A I has been out of character for everybody like. So many companies have not been themselves since ChatGPT launched.

That's true. I was have been played with a pixel nine pro these days. And every time you pick up that film, it's like you want me to do something for you.

Have you made many here? We would like to add ourself to this photo. You're not in this photo. Put yourself in the photo.

Yeah you're like, can you just turn off blue youth and it's like, I can't so sorry.

it's like IT is like a version of clippy from hell. You know it's like do you want me to add some text to the cml for some reason? And I could yeah yes, why not?

Um it's fine. It's just a very it's a weird time that said we'll pick up the apple stuff later. Um one thing to know, I hear you're saying that it's weird that i'm focus on the soft and shipping because I mr. Her view it's in the box.

One thing I did get announced uh, just in the time betwen the event and today the fda actually did approve the hearing features for the airports to which qual continue to believe will be the biggest look the most impact for announcement of this event. yes. So that that did happen. We assume IT will ship later this all now because they have the clearance. That's big deal, but that's IT I got we're waiting on everything else um alright, what's actually talking about APS5 o what is IT now.

you know, have you ever like looked at a computer and you're like, what if this computer is a little cheaper? Yeah um I didn't do as much stuff. IT played video games really, really well, but is also choices much as another thing. We have plays video games really, really well. Yeah, I just plays IT a little Better.

Is this just like a GPU upgrade .

for the basically yeah, it's a GPU upgrade. You have got a much bigger GPU um they are climbing much Better ray tracing and also the version of D L S S which is an NVIDIA thing that like up scales so much more intelligent A.

I G it's not actually .

it's not actually dal S S .

because it's AMD based with on .

right o their A M D based but not actually the A M D version is the SONY version of the same thing AI upscaling. And and those are kind of the three big deals out of IT. In the other big part of IT is that the Price is seven hundred dollars, the Normal ones about four fifty. And so it's not quite choice, but it's expensive and it's a it's also got, you know, this drive and people are having a lot of feelings about the this drive.

We can get an accessory one.

right? You can get an accessory one, but it's kind of like, remember r when they took the disservice out of the the macbook, everybody lost their mind is the same thing like physical media. I love physical media. IT feels like physical media has been like on an uptick and now like, oh, seventy thousand seven hundred dollars for this, and then another eighty dollars .

for the this drive. What this feels like to me is as if apple rived the mac pro and was like, this thing is sick. Fastest ever.

Everything is amazing. You're gona love IT. IT has one. U. S. B. sport. yes. I did enjoy like IT doesn't make any sense to me that you would make your highest and most impressive looking thing, which has a one diagram of users that I would say over lapse fairly aggressively with the section of users who care about things like physical media and having a collection of disks and cares about the the liner notes and all this something those two people are the same person. And so the idea that you're going to be like we're going to give you all the power in the world, but no physical media is just so strange to me, even if we're going to make this thing more expensive. If I was eight hundred dollars and had a disc drive, I would understand that way more than I understand.

Seven hundred dollars had no disservice. But you can spend seven hundred ninety dollars.

yeah. But I I think it's it's effected. It's called the pro IT is so much more expensive and then IT doesn't have a this drive. So so that's where people are getting concerned.

But at the same time, as we talked about earlier, this this is where they are heading, right? Like they've been heading this way for a long time. They don't want you to have a describe. They don't want you to using the dest.

want certainly use games to exist.

They want you buying the thing on their store. And then when IT doesn't work, going and buying the new upgrade on their store over and over and over again, they're very happy with that. And most of the developers and stuff seem pretty fine with that. It's just the the real hard core fans, but the hardware fan so far are really excited about this thing.

I like, I like a big thrive. I like physical media. I like only software. I think my prerequisites on this third my is there you .

talk .

about that ah, I feel so let just make the argument here. Yeah, the PS five in particular from inception has been all about wicked fast SSD speed. So you were not never playing the game of the ultra best. You are always copying IT to the edney sy, so the the disk is like a toda yes, right? It's like you're always download again.

You're holding IT and you're like, yeah, I can do this theoretically. You can play parts the game off of the desk, but for the most part it's a demoting .

on first finites least copying a enormous trunks of the game.

Yes, I need to do day zero updates and all of that stuff.

So I ve just like, if you like, I am a person with a vinal collection. yeah. And I like, i'd like to put on a record and then like, shake my fist of the man because they can't. The internet has nothing to do with posting to music about.

And anything they concern here is that now you can't like, if you want to play A P S. Four game or something, if you want to play an older game, so you can you, you know, you have to pay extra for that if you want to watch a movie, which, like the PS five has historically been a very good blue y player, you have to now pay .

extra for that.

And it's got that pro monicker. You're okay. Like the P S, 5 pro is really cool， but I might get graphics s nerds.

I'm like, yeah, this is sick. But also, I don't need to spend seven hundred dollars on this thing. I ve got A P. S. Five with the this drive IT rules.

I think that actually gets me is right next to this. They released extra bot, which is a game of the year tender. I've been playing extras player with max. We are gonna. We bought the controller, which is adorable um we're going to play extra about whenever SHE tires, the astra playroom think you want to six years like you just keep playing this yeah.

she's the first five minutes over. good.

Actually we don't need to introduce new ideas, explain money um but like for money, I can tell extra aut is the reason to buy A P S five and is not the reason to buy APS5 pro。 Just feels those things feel disconnected to me, a way that seems as ridiculous.

Yes, the extra bot is focusing in kind of like that in tinder play style of of nintendo do is all about IT doesn't care about the graphics as much. IT cares about how the game plays, where as play station and xbox of historically have been like.

We care about how the game plays, but also we wanted to look and yeah and and in this case, they're like like we've got this one side where we had disaster bot and you can use the controller and all these really incredible ways feels like a sweat IT, feels just new and dynamic and fun. And then we got this like other thing. Yeah, this.

So you can go play. Great argument for the P. S, F, R.

Do you really like spider men too?

So that's like the core argument for the playstation. Yeah, the station to have the spider man .

phone honor IT really is like like the core argument is, do you really like the last of us in spite in spider man and in some of these other games that have actually implemented retracing? And do you really want like you really, really like that? And if so, go get this because it's gonna look a little sharper.

It's gonna little cleaner. I think if you are playing on a if you're playing your console on a monitor, IT makes sense. sure. If you're playing on a big TV and like a huge sublet room, don't do this like that's just a way and you will not be able to appreciate a single bit of this.

I will say I think the most compelling argument of this uh, and I think, uh, is this mark cerny the the the art sex? Okay, I can never remember it's matt remark. It's like this name. It's two different people in my head.

Anyway, it's mark, uh, said basically the thing that you've seen is that everybody is forever making trade, ffs, between performance and fidelity, right? So like, do I want you to look good or do I want lots of frames? And and that is that is the kind of d gaming performance trade off.

And with the P S five crown, you don't have to make that trade off, right? Like you can very high settings at very high frame. Tes, that's not a thing that most people will notice, but IT is the kind of thing that matters, right? Like it's I see that is the same argument for like why the two of you spent six times as much money on your televisions as I did. It's not for my is work, David.

then why I had spent .

seven hundred dollars on this and I happily .

said IT to fidelity mode and I let IT drop frames while I try to find figure out a new kicking indicator in every year. It's fine.

It's impossible at point. I think the thing that is odd to me about this launch is that there is one sort of great example, right? There's a bunch of games theyve, actually, I think upgraded a lot of games. There are a lot of things that will look slightly Better. But this is the sort of thing that I think works when you can come out with lake A, A sort of next generation looking game.

I think that increasingly hard to do. We've seen this. This is like the P. S, three of saying, oh, I think we're kind of hitting our limit on how we can make, how good we can make these games look and the difference between A P S four and A P S five game.

I am so sorry to a lot of people out there who can be really upset with me right now. Isn't actually that different? Like yeah, I will notice IT neil, I will notice IT a few a small group of fans are really gonna notice those differences.

The majority of people are just going in. Yeah, that's the game. Sometimes it's a little ballerina. Sometimes it's not in. The majority of people don't care about that and they're really trying to push this.

I they said, oh, a lot more people are choosing the performance mode over the fidelity mode. We wanted to give, give, make them not have to choose. That's why we did this. How many people like I don't think it's the majority of people.

but that's fine, right? This isn't supposed to be .

for everybody.

Yeah it's for professionals.

yes, but it's professions who is the professional.

This is just for ninja.

That's the same way. But it's not like there's .

any pro features here. The pro feature is we put a bigger GPU in because we could find a bigger G P U. And and one of the criticism the original P S five was that IT was IT and the x box were under power as soon as arrive because they were based on rent, that current gene A M D technology.

And so it's like they've always been a little behind the times, but the exchange is that the games is just play. And so now that play station is putting all these options and making you think about these things, you're starting to think of IT less like a console where just you plug in and go and you're starting to think of IT more like a PC. And I think that's a dangerous place for SONY to be.

Historically, the famous PC is successful P. C program over there. They really know how to do IT. Um but like like that works for microsoft. That makes sense for microsoft mrozek doing the exact same thing.

Both these companies are pushing these things to M P, C is the fundamental are they to all the technology in the most PC technology? They're based on a ams technology and intend dus over. On the other side thing.

what if we just did cool ship what we make good games?

Yeah, what we just make good games. And it's it's a weird place that that one is taking this don't know if so like make sense for x box IT doesn't make as much sense for SONY.

I I will point out that the eighty dollar describe is so about on amazon and best and target the vent .

DRAM like truly also .

works for the p five slim. So, you know, there's lot of slum owners out there.

So this is what kills me.

the slim not having a deis drive. I completely understand. Yes, that makes perfect sense. Having IT be cheaper and smaller. And for people whose games are digital, which is most people make absolute perfect sense to me, this just doesn't like.

And in this, in this one tiny lane, you have a group of people who will put up with a bigger console who are likely to pay more for IT, who are willing to make all the sacrifice is required to get the very best possible. Everything out of IT, right? Like the only reason to buy this is if you want, like the ten out of .

ten experience. Yes, let me get in here with my heart. Take OK you already, already.

The problem with the P. S, 5 pro is not it's too expensive。 It's that it's not expensive enough. They should have released a nine ninety nine version of this thing, not a seven hundred dollar IT should actually be a PC that you can hook up to your TV and have the like lovely experience of just is always working for your game. You just turn IT on and start playing your game.

But with the graphics that people are buying their PC games for, yeah, sonny knows that there are a lot of people out there. They care about having the best possible version of their games and theyll play them on PC. I think we've proven that they could sell on nine ninety nine of P S. Five to the .

extremement of the market. The enthusiasm again .

were just soon. They were just they're soon. No.

I I to leaves when I do .

think the idea of a play PC games but don't have to deal with the windows would be compelling to a surprisingly large number of people, which I think is also what microsoft thinks and can't figure out what to do with.

It's it's trying it's trying like, I mean, I think the next x box, the next you just described .

the steam deck yeah right.

I mean.

isn't that that but you're on a plane and you can play PC games.

The steam deck runs up, runs up like smart phone chip on a tiny screen.

It's like a potato compared to the P, S.

5 graphics right here。 Here's my poll for the verge s audience. But assume you on A P S five, what would you rather spend money on a steam deck or APS5 pro？ You know, i'm very I feel like just based on this conversation, that's more of a choice than we are right now.

I I think that a the wrong question. I don't think this is like every year when people are like should you upgrade from the iphone fifteen to the sixteen like the answer's? No and no one is doing that.

The answer is if you have A P S four or A P S four pro, like to me the interesting upgrade paths. If you have A P S four pro and you've been sitting around waiting for the P S five pro to buy one, is this the thing you are waiting for? If you the P S five, I I would, I would bet the number of people who were like throw my p5 in the traction， buying A P pro to get slave Better. Rata is like vanishing with small. But I don't think that who SONY is going for here.

but I ask the P. S. Four pro people.

I was one of those people. I had A P, S. pro.

I really like that. I have been right here. Yeah, it's great. Got A P, S, five, because IT was new, and I wanted to play all the new games. If you're A P S four pro, you're know how you pay twice the amount like the P S, that the P S four pro wasn't this high market up between in the regular P S .

also come out like right after the P S four. No.

IT took IT took a while. Yeah was a couple years. And IT was a big upgrade because you were doing 4k， you were doing like a lot of big stuff in IT. Or as this one is just like we've do, you know what dl, sis.

we made our own weird version of IT.

yeah. And like that's a lot of harder to sell to the like. The Normal folks I say because we're all big nurse here.

we love have, look, I watch these comparison videos. I have waited for digital foundry to do its thing, and I was still like, i'm good, i'm horrible at matter, and I play extra bott.

The whole meme right now is people watching IT and pausing IT and taking their glasses often on trying to see where the differences are between the two, the two versions, because it's really small and the ad noticeable, but it's really small. Most people don't care that they just want to play the game.

I will issue you might almost weekly reminder that you can evaluate the quality of anything in front screen. Yeah you just can't, uh, you can look at stuff on the screen, just like when people try. We do IT all the time when I list these speakers and we like, we record them and then people watch them on youtube on their smart friend speakers. I don't know what's happening. There is nothing just like a handshake agreement through the internet, like we're gona feel some lives and that's all right.

I just we're tell them the truth.

I am very interested in what is happening in the broader gaming market because IT feels like that shake .

up in that split is like really happening, right? Like like we knew this PC moment was happening for councils, but this in particular, like IT IT was a moment with P S. Four pro because you really like, okay, now we are fracturing the console market anyway. The council market typically, as in fracture the whole point of the council market is no fracture like everything is you go you buy this thing IT dance the games and now you're going to all these different skills sort like apple just introducing all these different skills and like ah okay, you're going to meet more the market here but you also lose why people like this product through again, with which is simplicity.

I wonder if what we're seeing is just this like incredible by vacation of the gaming industry. We're on the one hand, you have the handle revolution, right, which is like, I think is going to eat the low and consoles life is already happening, right? Like if I just wanna a play astro bot, the idea of me needing a dragani box to do IT I think is like that ending very quickly.

Um then the flip side is the higher stuff is going to get higher end. So IT feels like we're going to end up in the place of lake music streaming and final and nothing in between, right? You're there going to have this sort of like beautiful but spoke set up with a lot of very specific things, but IT is going to be extremely high finality and wonderful or we're going to learn deep into convenience and streaming and everything is gonna lower quality. But that's what people .

I think the the the there's a third prong here that kind of affects IT, which is that they own so many of these studios that that are put making these games and these studios aren't making games for anybody else, right? Like aster about you can't go play that on anything but at SONY device because SONY wants to keep you in their real house. And that's wu, the ftc.

It's gna have feelings if you get I think if you get if you're like a loop or basically PC, we're doing all of the stuff also. You can play last of us on anything else. People will start having feelings about that in a very real, real way. I don't kind of curious .

about I think so is to have its first party two years, which has been widdle down. It's when microsoft about activision and I, we're going to close off call of duty that you got regulators. I would point out that ever since microsoft actually closed at activision deal, IT has just been clown car cities just banging in the walls and fAllen off Cliff.

Just today, they're going to lay off six hundred and fifty more xbox employees. This is just a wave of layoffs, strategy shifts, all after they. They fought too thin nail to my exhibitions because something you.

because they want to have, everybody wants their little five term, and you have to go and buy the console to get into play the games. Rather than just play them on A P C, which they can all theoretically do because the architecturally.

they're all the same. Not sure, but i'm SONY at least has a far sult the winner of this generation because it's good. The switch, this one, every generation that is any near right in the new switch thing is coming that will try win whatever generation is a part of the the cycles don't quite in, but SONY is beaten.

Microsoft, pretty Sammy, in this generation. I I hear you saying like the underlying software or the underlying harbor architectures or similar like their AMD chips, but the P S, five is a it's an opinionated device. Yeah, right. IT SONY has a lot of thoughts about the playstation and what it's for and what the game should work like.

And mark journey has a lot of ideas about settings, right? Like there's there's a vision there for Better or worse and you cannot feel IT and you can be mad about to described yeah so only as confidence. Microsoft has confidence.

I think full sensor is a confident person. They have have a lot of ideas, but actually IT feels to me like they knew they were losing. They wanted to make a big swing, and they have just wiped on a bunch of their big swings.

They have done cloud gaming, which supposed to be the biggest swing of all. They haven't pull IT off this activision deal. You know they let color duty be the sideshow.

But I was really about Candy crush. I don't fill said this to us, mobile gaming is the future. I know what as football. We got to win there. That was also kind of a weird side show of cloud gaming.

And none of that I don't think anybody, any consumer, if you are a, you are a gamer, please use the feature and IOS, where makes your emails a little bit nice? R but any email us. I'm curious, did microsoft buying activision improve anything about my playing games for you? Like I don't see IT yet and it's true the deal is pretty new. Yeah, but you you see that what's happening over there is they are looking for a new strategy or a new vision. And I I think he needed that before you made one of the bigger acquisitions all time.

But I think sony's muddy you talk about it's got this big, clear vision. It's muddy that vision because on the one point hand, yeah, you have a boat, you have the last of us, you have spiderman and you have these games, these first party games that look gorgeous are stunning. Play grade on this thing have really kind of unique things.

Be focused on that controller and then you just have everything else. And and microsoft kindly said, we're gonna everything else. We're going to own that space.

We're going to be the pcs we're going to bring you know kind of gaming pcs into the console space on is now saying the same thing even though they got this this lead, there's yeah we're going to do the same thing. We're gonna dy the waters here. And and I think that's where like the P S 5 pro doesn't have that clear vision you see in .

in their thing。 I think that has one very clear vision. IT costs more money, cost so much like right now, if you going to buy a console, is any already have a switch?

Yes, if you're my council, you're going to buy P. S. five. Here is to the winner that most people have chosen.

unless you don't want to pay those first party games. If you just want to play color duty instead cooked in next box.

Most people are still about playstation, and there is like a default choice. It's the playstation.

right? So then you have a playstation and you can discount the regular one because you you have your economy of scale. So you can go in the holiday. Here's the cheap .

playstation .

like then and then you can, but there is some categories, people that want to spend more money and you can sit that we had to see if out of the time to go to drive as drivers waiting to catch the best qual like just the money comes and i'm here to get IT. Like I don't think that's what the CFO does, but I was a learning experience for me. Um cuse great and exonbury just like here's a more expensive one catch money just here. If you ve got some if you have three hundred hundred dollars.

I do not take IT for me.

And yeah, that's true. This is the game both of these companies have been playing for like this whole generation, right? And microsoft bet has been for years now that we are on the cusp of a giant shift in how this entire industry works, how we play the games where they are either architected the kinds of games that we play. Like microsoft has been making this bet for a long time now. I think microsoft still thinks it's right and is running out of patients for IT to actually happen.

SONY is just sitting around saying, look at all this money flowing in and and then the question will be, if you fast forward a few years, is microsoft going to be right before IT gave up? Or is SONY just gna have so much money at the end of bit that who cares? But like SONY is basically betting that this shift is going to happen slowly and microsoft is betting that it's gonna en fast OK.

I'm going to end by saying one thing that will make everybody mad yeah or that you will completely I don't think there's middle ground. It's weird that microsoft has tried to run away from the idea of the x box being that just plays game really well for so long.

It's never wanted that, right?

It's like the whole experts one side quest with what had irr blasters and H, M, I pass like what I don't people got so mad be when I, I was a disaster.

My ongoing theory about this is that everyone to know what others in an executive meeting at microsoft, and somebody turns to fill Spencer and goes like, why are you here? And so we have to like, explain why x box is part of microsoft. And eventually that morphed in the lake talking about azure. And then I was just toast, right?

Can we run this? I mean, like first start, we're going are going to do IT. We're going to take over the we you have a dish network integration in the x box, like they were all the way down the rabbit, all that stuff, and they walked in all back to games.

And then IT was reasonless successful again. And then the this generation, they were starting with themes. And then like what we lost, the SONY, we're going to stream the games from measure that will disrupt whole market and that just has not hand out. And IT just seems like if they maybe .

some focus on the .

main thing would continue to be successful.

but that back IT up to the first thing and it's how do we be part of the windows strategy thing inside of microsoft and then fast forward to this generation, and it's how do we be part of the cloud first strategy of microsoft flick. I think there is a very compelling case to be made that the best and worst thing going for the export team is that they work for microsoft.

But you know, I was to say that I think part of the reason theyve been doing all this slip hopping is because their first party games have to land at the same like they just don't like, like, like sony's first party games, move consoles. People buy councils for SONY y's first party games.

I don't know. Hello, was good for a while.

Halo.

name another one. Hello two.

You see, like microsoft on this whole buying spray. They were like, we're going to buy all of these companies and then they got told, little can you cannot make call of duty?

Exclusive craft?

Yeah, not exclusive. Like like first party exclusive. The last of us, spider man, those are exclusive. They come to the PC eventually. And then you can sort of play through x box, I think, through the cloud. But you have to wait a while if you wants to play the last of us, which all the other gas are playing and everybody start about, you go going to pay a station well.

yeah and and I think that all like that that all sort of flows from the same circles right where it's like OK. If if our job is to sell councils, how do you sell councils? You all councils with good games. But if our job is to like increase the market share of of our cloud services ARM of our company, you just prioritising .

ah yeah yeah.

I think full sensor would take deep issue with that characterization of ex box, but that it's always a little more true than anybody want to be. Can I just read the first paragraph of his note announcing please lay off for the pat. This is full sensor.

His memo to microsoft plays. For the past year, our goal has been to minimize disruption while welcoming new teams and enable to do their best work. Is part of the lining.

Our post acquisition team structure, managing a business we fail decision to eliminate approximate six hundred fifty rolls. welcome. You're fired.

It's tough. And then it's just like we've had some good days and we've had some bad days and this is a bad day. I think though.

I mean that there is no a good way to at those notes. No, there's not I think merges are bad. That's i'm saying.

I think generally, they lead to chaos in disruption and actually smaller companies with less focus or less ambition. I I suspect that will be in the long run through of the exhibition deal. Are you saying .

when her brother is discovery is in a good company?

We got a we .

yeah we're taking a break.

Talk about whatever. As I was doing a little bit later, we'll right back.

Support for this show comes from the acu, the acl. You knows exactly what threats a second Donald trump term presents, and they are ready with a battle tested playback. The clu took a legal action against the first trumpet administration four hundred and thirty four times, and they will do IT again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech in fight for all of our fundamental rates and freedoms. Join the aclu today to help stop the extreme project twenty twenty five agenda. Learn more at aclu dot org.

We're back and we have the most breaking useful in the middle of our break, literally in the middle, our break. Google put up a blog post announcing the developers preview of desktop window and android tapus. I know that the audience is as lit up by this as we are, but I have to tell you, this whole room got so distracted that we almost have got to start the show again in the middle of break. There's looking at this blog post.

It's good.

Block us if you're a decks head, just know your empires falling crumbling brick by brick. Is google ruthlessly sherlock? S your entire your entire Operating system away from you? Uh, so based a pixel fold, which feels like one of the hotter phones going, David just got one. You it's sitting .

here in a fx box on my desk.

Illian has a pixel watch on right now, pixels and a pixel fox about a pixel denizen the ecosystem and seeing people are excited about this phone. And so google, which has, I was trying to run the pixel fold on that month every day. And IT was the sad thing i've ever seen. Truly this like no, literally no affordable for running with a keyboard and display, like just as your pixel flic. Here's a media create time .

and is still square.

is square and for was beautiful. Everyone is great. As you know, samsung has decks as verge cast listeners. Now sami g has a thinker decks, which is the desk mode for its phones. There's a lot of weird decks stuff going on.

Literally different skills of the same phone in the samsung lineup run different versions of dex with different capabilities. Samsung baby IT is just not a thing you can depend on. As someone who is desperately tried to live the dex lifestyle, the only percent now who ever pulled us successful is dancy fort, or former views editor, who now works at google. Because google is like, then can you explain what is going on? I'm sorry.

So I was gonna ask. yeah. So there is a man named deader bone who also works at google, who also was a big believer in window freedom, I would say.

And then then america's number one dex user, yeah, good one. And only decks. Still no one man, uh, goes to google. Does the verge get credit for this feature?

Yes, this is, this is, I actually, i'm still know all good friends. We just learned to not talk about working anymore, which is weird for people that worked in media together especially. But we just I see the return, anything else?

Um I don't know, I know we have no incident. Fo and I maintain that line because I like talking to deaf and he's my friend so we just enforce. We had to like learn what's talk about wasn't working or gadgets very word um sad to know but i'm just taking credit for IT.

Ah I no literally no evidence and actually like uh an ideological resistance to knowing yeah and the deep knowledge of that not being how IT works. Yes we're still take increase lutely. We will send our arms in the your house and introduced that top and could not agree more and into IT. So okay, here's actually going on with just to develop preview right now.

They're showing IT mostly in a pixel to imagine that this is gna be what happen in pixel told which much like a tablet, when you untold IT um you can just free form windows, you can just run and they get this top Operating system, you pull a crime window down and opens a window with an nf bar and tabbed vision IT. I think there's some weird here between what is a carmo wester and what is an end. Like the google, weird here is very powerful.

Like the chrome O S. Team just saw this and is like, what the hell or .

they are like, aren't we in the same team? OK, you know, they are cool. So there's some weirdness here about just the differences in between the epes of crime as can run android depth. Weird that that came to nothing as most of these ideas generally come to nothing.

Um but the idea of that google is taking a bigger step forward, in particular with the fold because I don't think android ID tablet is a thing where they matter if they feel from when doing, but part in particular with the fold and foodful android devices that when you are close to act like android phones and when they open, they have free form windows that can be useful in a variety of like computing situations. That's a big deal like right? IT feels a big deal.

They have actually chip IT. That's like work. But this is the thing that everybody wants. You just Carry your phone to work. You plug IT in and it's a computer or a little .

a closer i'm sorry, I am just looking at the the desktop windowing thing they have and IT feels like the person the sample they're using here, the person is lying about going .

to to ahoo the this is so german I can summarize IT yeah .

the tarhov deeper is for them behind that you see they're been google tahoe. Interesting interesting .

there. Like email. My trip to .

like windows are calling out there a little bit.

It's good. I say, yeah, you're right. The are I gone a video call? They're doing email of searching for literally just the word to a little, a little weird.

little weird but these look, I I don't know. I think these windows looked nice. They seem to move smoothly and little .

just it's such a rising tide lifts boats thing too because big, big chAllenge android apps on chromo s once they got past some of the like basic compatibility issues has been the android apps look like butts when they're big, right? Like overwhelmingly. And this is a thing that that apple has had really good luck with over the years and IT has served up really well, is making apps look good at different sizes.

Google has struggled forever to get developers to care about anything other then the vertical size of a smart phone. And one of the reasons people like to build apps for IOS before they build for even android smart phones is because the screen sizes are different. They get so hard to build a good android that because you essentially have to build a hundred of them, that all looks slightly different at slightly different orientations.

It's slater different sizes. So like the idea of there are just being one software of one screen size is very appealing to people, which is why a lot of people like to build dios. What google has made an effort to do over the last years, IT has not done IT exceptionally well, but IT has aren't relatively well, is get people to build these more flexible apps that work at tablets size and they work at smartphone size and they work at the size of a laptop screen to run on crime west.

And so every bit of IT that gets Better on one of those makes you Better for all of them, right? So like the picture of full, being good this year should be very exciting to people who are in chrome x because it's going to make people who make android apps make them Better for the following. We'll make them Better on the chromosome. And every one of these pieces just gets Better and Better as time goes on, which I think again for this again, I can't imagine there are that many pixel tablet users out there in the world. But like this is just a step again in that direction.

Just so happy someone. I do have one question does does provide design like do they not have a responsive design really just like, okay.

you make IT in this context is called adaptive OK push for a long time but adaptive .

is not a checked x. It's not a thing that you say that make my up adaptive, that you have to build IT to be all of those things and that IT takes work so they don't .

have like a tool set. There will be like .

so do you'll see some apps and this is why like there are a lot of IOS apps that look the same on an ipad because you can basically just sort of like paint by numbers into a template. And I will do IT at all the different sizes. Um and some folks do that and that's fine.

But like if you wanna build them up with different ideas about navigation or different animations, or like, like literally to load a page at all, the different sizes and android device can be is a chAllenge, especially if you like care about how IT looks and works. A and then you throw in all the different devices and all the different know the screen refreshes ates. There's just so many variables, but the the sheer raw like X, Y, Y size of the APP has been the biggest hold up for google forever because it's just it's a thing people have not invested in doing because android tablets were not any good. Android, dbs and chrome books didn't work and nobody kind of of a football funds. And so like as each one of those gets Better, they all get Better.

And that's very cool. I think just kind of surprised is like in in web design, we had the same moment body was like, you know you can just download this little theme and it's a responsive theme and it's gonna automatically resize IT for anything you do and the fact that google doesn't just have like here's here's .

the lazy way no but somebody built that theme that's like, yeah doesn't just .

exist if you listen carefully, that's the sound of every web designer. Listen to show screaming you're welcome. I like .

to that just exists .

yeah I paid .

forty dollars for IT on the .

taking side from mobile. We had an m outside for a minute, uh, to a responsive was a nights are just responsive.

Design is really hard. Yes, it's really hard. It's got a lot easier because IT has becomes so much more important, but IT is really hard.

Well, I think my question is, why doesn't google do that work?

I actually, can I tell you the fact about revenue design? I love a fun fact.

My fun fact that responsive .

design is that IT was a box media designer, Scott klm, who invented some of the very first responsive design .

prototypes. S he like.

he like shopping .

a stretchy web windows and I like make that. And then did office living flames me time .

to for a long time that see there was .

live breaking gadgets on the request? We still our hearts still a flame when there's andred when doing yeah we're we're still where we came from. Um David, I think you think the next story is very funny. I do think the next story is very funny. Make the case.

Okay, so there is a deb. Uh, well, let me let me back up. So so there's some question happening, actually look back.

So we found these new trump ands and android .

windows candidate.

Do you think is more likely to use decks in the office?

Neither one of those a lawyer he's .

using like one person.

Oh, that's galaxy.

Yeah, tim has a fuld's .

keyboard in his backpack at all times. That feels exactly right to me.

J vanes, like, here's what I want to do. I, A national ssa's. That's what his brains.

by the way, have I told you guys about how we discovered very recently that je event has a house look right down the street for me, and there's now a secret service motor CAD that goes by my house lick almost every day. Wow, that's the whole story that's IT. I want tell you, there is now a park that is like the size of this room that's fake behind me ah that is now close because it's too close to je vis house and that's how everyone in the neighbor od out the jv house .

here but he's never there. He's walking s across america. confusing.

Apparently one of them might be in my neighbor od. I going to have to start walking down every day just to see if I can find anyway.

about hearings.

There is a big, uh, comm. Harris was wearing earrings, and that became technical because there was a set of people on the internet to advanced a clearly not correct theory that the earning he was wearing. We're actually headphones.

And ah I just I brought this up for two reasons, one because it's not true uh and this is like a thing that people have tried to do for years. The idea that the candidate who does well in the debate is being fed answers in some way, shape, perform, is like a long running conspiracy theory that never proved true. But B, I think it's very funny that the earrings in particular, that she's being accused of wearing, uh, there are some strong evidence that they don't actually exist.

This is like a take sorter company that doesn't really seem to have shipped like in france, we have not covered this company closely. So maybe there's more other. If you are an owner of nova h one headphones, get at me. I have a lot of question. I believe me.

Everything audio earrings you right?

I apologize the h one audio earrings. Um they just aren't what he was wearing.

Yeah they look very different if I would have been .

funny if everybody is like she's wearing beats but that she's reading a yes.

the only similarity is they both have a Pearl on them like their proliferating that's IT. The fact of .

the CEO is out there being like I can't confirm, deny that these are our figures is like what are you doing?

The fact of the guy who can ship this product to saying that and .

also the battery life, only me last two and a half hours, which means they probably would would die like mid debate before being for being realistic.

She's put him on right before he goes out yeah given to be let's go who he takes off earrings in the debate.

puts them in a charging in case takes .

him back out there is a very funny in the in gadgets um way back when when obama was first elected, there is all these reports he wanted to keep his blackberry and if you remember this ah frothing at the mouth while obama get a blackberry and then there is also a stuff about he wouldn't you like a secret blackberry was like ultra light down and he really wanted his blackberry.

And there was this company, the meta phone called the sectarian edge in the CEO of that I don't remember. There are call, I don't I I refuse to remember. The sea of this company is is like a military vender guy.

And he's just like on all the TV channels. Me like the sector edge is the most harden military grade ba ba, ba and everything like obama's getting a sector edge and like definitely not he and a big thousand that was just like strip of adapt. And then later on hand and night, like why did we spend so much time talking on the sector? I think josh to pulk, I had a post in adit during those days. We was like it's not the superphenix .

come black tory .

like that was like the headline.

it's pretty good .

yeah .

i'm learning so much about were not technically smartphones.

which was made by general dynamic cruse muscles and this weird feature phone for the government that was.

remember red, the boeing black that boeing was like made a super market. This is a whole is a genre there.

There are many stories during the property that I spent much too much time.

Forest on .

particular, yes, but I don't know if you remember they would always describe them as having a super tivo in the White house or trumpet watch like a super tivo. And he kept referring as a super tivo. And like, you know, american potter reporters are not be like what's a super t like I get IT, but I was like, what's the super tvo? Like, I ve had every tvo that's ever shipped.

Which one is IT? Is is there that company is now patent license control like which tvo is to do. And I was just a bog standard direct T V box in one time they someone publish a photo of the super t, and IT was a four dollar black White directory. But somebody like .

paying to a racing stripe on .

it's like super tiv, just like he's got direct t like i'm aware that you can record for channels at once.

but like so can everything. Honestly, if he gave directv had rebranded a super tivo, IT would probably have been more set.

So one trump pz senior citizens of america, you can all have direct TV together. It's a remote.

but I like has the cover on IT. You can only hit two buttons just to make .

sure IT is very sad that everybody just assume common Harris earrings were earbuds.

Do you think tim walls has ever back to kick starter? That's my last question for you.

A hundred percent.

I mean, in je evan spector, kick started.

Very good.

Will cop to getting this wrong at the top of choice. That was honor because honor is also been hinting in a try for free. But it's actually the water way trifle smart phone, twenty and hundred dollars. IT looks sick again while we get like booted out of the country, you will work call and almost one at a business because we wouldn't sell them ships. This is a whole thing .

that happens if they to be their .

own Operating system and start Oliver in other like three screens and everyone and like, what if what if we let our way back? I want .

this the world's first dool folding couple and so it's the .

mate X T IT is ultimate design.

The mate X T .

ultimate design. They announce the same, which is very good um it's very expensive. It's twenty eight hundred dollars there about depending on the conversion factories to be on. And that's something for a storage. Our story points out that three hundred more than the sixty internet with how many .

times can I fold up my sixteen and backup pro? Me, I.

all of the videos assets, all the content that, while usually is, is just the thing unfolding and showing people looking at .

presentations. Get a hands on with that more. China got a hands on with the and and put in a couple of additional spects.

It's only a little figure than the samsung galaxy z fold. And IT looks like like you can watch this video. It's will put in the shows. IT looks sick. The camera is huge.

Yeah, that is a big camera.

is a big boy.

Are there more i'm looking now into there are more chinese hands zones with this thing. There are some trick out, but they are all just the thing unfolding yeah, that's the only content that exists is a very control demo of a thing unfolding.

What else you need to know? That's just what does the Operating .

system do anything when you turn IT to do a sheet of paper.

we need to see before and after.

We do not worry about the process.

So one of the things that I very curious about in the next turn, phones, uh, we've been talking about, about the pixel seems very popular amongst the gadget population, whether it's gona move google's market chair at all, IT won't. But if you're particular kind of gagin or that is the device I really like talking about IT into lately, which is interesting. IT feels like folding phones that by fold, they've reached a point where now they're just been cheering and iterative steps yeah right compared to that where the galaxy fold started, which means apple will have one next year maybe in a peaceful folds so you can still feel the same. It's not perfect, but it's it's right.

And we see that little crease when you open .

that you you can even feel with your finger um but it's like it's hit that point and so now we just okay.

add another one. Yeah do you think I mean.

like I always like the chinese for market in the indian firm market are like full of these ideas, like do bonkers hardware stuff and see what happens. Uh, markets around the world are generally more open to, weirdly, just because of the way our Carriers are applies as a training at all, a bunch of our test stuff. That means we don't get cool funds first.

This one video has the guy actually folding IT and you watch IT all like real line itself. Yeah IT cool. I mean.

why we did have to build their own Operating system again with the amount of sanctions it's government put on what we just change the direction of that company. That's fine. Um but IT just seems like this is weird. You look at this, you look at that people excited about IT in a way that the first set affordability didn't really capture. But now maybe the technology is mature enough.

I I think there's like also there's a weird cultural element here too, because we're seeing all of these things happening in other countries in the united states is so focused on the iphone and the iphone is so stuck in in in glass slab and and and like google, it's really nice that google coming in. But what are you been doing this for a while? A lot of the shame's been doing this.

A lot of these of the country companies have been doing really, really cool stuff with phones that just don't come to the united states in many ways. It's it's less like to do doing weird stuff. It's more like we're getting a little left behind.

Yeah I mean, again, it's so hard to break into U. S. Mark from the market because of the essential do up with apple, lin, samsung. The Carriers are more less enforced goes. I've talked we've talked with so many times now, but i'm just wondering from a hard work perspective, do we think the regular folding phones have reached their sort of like, yeah, we're done with this. We don't need to figure out any basic here because .

I think a lot of people, the folks are comfortable with that. That little crease IT doesn't seem to bother people that much. And they figured out the front of the phone rate, like with the pixel pro that was the thing everybody really likes about IT, is that they figured out the front so you can just use the phone as Normal. You never even have to open IT up. But then when you do want to, like.

have a good time.

yeah you open that up and enjoy yourself.

You know you .

have long me out. You have .

long insisted that um it'll be the flip style. Yes, I just sing a triple fold .

change your mind IT. No.

I think I think the triple fold is an interesting tablet replacement way more than IT is a an interesting fund replacement like I think phone that turns into smart watch is a way more compelling thing to most people than tablet that turns into phone. Uh and but to your point point about the hardware, like on one level, we are getting there like this stuff is pretty good. There's work left to do.

They need to get more rugged red. The cameras need to get Better. The screens need to continue to improve. The the whole thing needs to get thinner and lighter like these fans are big. They're a big and uh, there there's just there's a lot of work left to do.

But in terms of lake, can you make a phone that kind of works open and closed like the the answer to that is yes, right? And I think we've landed on is especially with this last generation samsung getting closer to the right side. One plus is getting closer to the right eyes.

Google is seemingly very close to the right side. Uh, I I think what you're seeing from a lot of these companies and woe and show me and others have done this for years is like unbelievably cool, really high and tech demos that like they they don't think a lot of people are going to buy this phone. But IT IT gets people excited. It's like it's a branding exercise as much as IT is like an actual phone to sell to humans.

I disagree. It's so cool.

Look at .

twenty is twenty .

eight hundred.

Look you you put plan 3 is be great。

Didn't you just complain about the P, S, 5 pro cost？

If you could folded like an cordian? I would I take IT all back if I was like big G, P, but also folded like this. Yeah, yeah. You put the motion in.

I'm sold now. I I do think we're going to hit a point where people start doing even where stuff with this. But also like there's a there's a thing that's coming that is a lot of new wacky experimenting in phone hardware.

And i'm very excited about IT, like I got stagnant for so long and then a couple of people tried folding phones and I didn't really work. And I think everybody decided maybe this isn't going to be the thing. And now IT feels like I might be the thing. And I think like nothing is gna beat the Candy y barr phone and is time soon, if ever but the like the the experiment is coming back. And I think that's I mean.

the iphone sixteen pro max is all six point nine inches on almost seven. We're starting to strain the boundaries of how bigger phones to before this.

I want to a quality and that immediately .

I the first thing I did in the hands on just fold on that list of things you said about what what folding phones need to get Better. They need to be more durable the screens into a Better. That's the same lister qualities that you could have applied to the first iphone.

Oh, for sure. right?

And so it's just they're on the same path, right? And that I mean, like we figured out the the core technology and I was iteratively improving like around the edges to get them even Better. That feels like a moment. I'm not sure where that moment going to lead to the fact that we're like script to screen full out. Can IT feels like maybe they figured out how to get one screen to fill out in the network to seeing what else we can do.

I put another follow in.

I'm just like dying for the three screen phone.

What I mean just think about the difference in how the screen looks and feels from the first z fold to now, right? Like just the sheer amount like material science improvements that have been made to get to this point is crazy. Those things were like, asked, and I IT was deter, right? Who like accidentally peeled part of thinking was a screen protector. Like that was not that long ago.

No, no. Deear had a tiny amount of dust in his review. And that to broke the screen, somebody else peeled off the screen and then says, and delay the launch.

That was not a long time ago, four years ago. Yeah.

like at the speed .

with which that stuff. And that was always the getting factor, right? Like the question was not, how do you build a good hinch IT? Can you make a screen that works like this? And works means a lot of things. But I think the answer to that is like, yes, and we're almost there.

And so I think you're right that like the path now is way more about software and its way more about use cases and its way more about details uh and again, it's way more about do people actually want this, which also is, can you make this thing for eight hundred dollars or not? Eighteen, one hundred dollars ah and those are like those are big hills to climb but they are I think like I don't know to just ruin the analogy, there are like hills. You can see the whether I think not that many years ago like can we make this screen not fall apart was genuinely, I think, kind of open ear.

And now you can just do in a little .

accordion op, walk up phone.

you and the you where it's open on its open on two. So IT just looks a Normal football phone. And then he just kind of reaches below and pulls up the third part and the the U.

I just gloriously expands. I've watched that twenty five times since we've been sitting here talking. It's ab.

It's sick. It's coming. I'm telling you, I got more attention from a certain audience on iphone day in the iphone.

There's something to that。 I want to end by putting two google stories together right next to each other. I think they are kind of really interestingly, we put my next each other.

We've actually talked a lot about google on the episode. They seem in one way to have a bunch of confidence. And maybe that confidence is just like we have to put them in, in front of you.

So here IT is, but we reveal the picture to watch three. This week, we reviewed if you gave IT in eight uh people like IT like yeah people really like to watch IT is a confident product. Um the integrations across the sort of pixel who ecosystem are solid.

We've been talking a lot about the pixel lines for all of there. You know general issues with soring reality in the chaos because of they're just absolute nya ism about imaging like they're good phones of people like yeah in the pixel watch three is a good watch that we really like. And I think people who trying to take something like IT, there's something happening on that side of house for goods where they have follow into a grave.

The hardware good, there's a theis in the software. Even if the every time you pick up big film that is like gin, I like there's still a theis. There's there's a point of view, which I think is very strong. They haven't had a point of view for quite a while um that that I have on the other side of house.

Uh well, the search engine just got and they are on try while again right now for and I trust for the ad tech stack and the you know there is trial, it's witnesses, there's documents warn finals in the courthouse covering for us. It's all very boring. It's a bunch of suits talking that display ads in the web like if you want to go to sleep program and advertising is the thing, talk about.

But what's faster is one in all the documents, all witnesses. The way google business people targeted business is ice called, right? There's no google cut bugs there.

No at all. A IT is literally, how do we own the market? Here's the value.

The value is there's a line on the emails is like the value here is that we owe everything. That's that's the thing that makes this powerfully. We own every part of the stack.

And so they're just saying IT out loud. And then you have the client actual people buying advertising being like google technology here is bad. We're just stuck with IT, right? And like the core, add text server of the goods and using the serve, all the pramathanath over web like this is bad.

Like this is like twenty technology that we would like to get away from or suck because you know where to go. And that is a weird dynamic for google, right? On the one hand, they with the A I stuff for germany, I maybe they got caught on the back foot, but they IT provided some amount of focus for the company.

IT seems like and it's reflected in these pectus devices. I think you can see IT like there's there's a reason for them to be the way they are. Yes, which is really interesting with I don't know if not for ChatGPT with the pixel nine have been had this much focus, like I don't know the answers to that question, like they weren't on this path all by themselves, like IT took this weird sort of diversion from opening eye to to bring them here, but they IT worked.

And then on the other side of house, the money people like this is monopterus don't like using this technology. And IT feels, based on what happened in the search trial, like the government knows how to be google. This is the case.

I would remind everybody that google try to avoid trial by just sending a check to the united states government for what IT calculated to be the maximum amount of damages on its wells fargo account. There is like, here's some millions of dollars. Is this good? We put IT in the shown. There's a picture of the check. You can look at the check, google senate .

check and apply works three ago.

Look, literally I like they were so desperate for this not to be happening that they just wrote they just front of the money for a settlement ah and so I I would just just oppose those two things. I think it's you see this company is kind of at war with itself a little bit because the thing that is funding everything is at all of this risk in the future is like coming into focus over here.

except that in so many ways so far, all of google's future stuff has just been ancillary to the other thing. I think the the most critics you could make of everything google has done in twenty five years is that IT actually doesn't care about anything but search.

And so everything gets subjected to the needs of search, like the people who build prone will tell you they could have build a Better broster, except that what they had to do is optimize for search queries, which is a weird thing to have to optimize for in a web broster. And so, and this is a story you hear over over from google, is everything eventually loses at the hand of the search team. And I I think you could make the case that the only team as powerful as google as the people who make the search engine or the people who make the ads and like that, that is who is now being thrown into this fight.

And the to your point, like the thing we say a lot on the show, is that what happens at one trial has very little to do with what happens at the next trial. And I think that's probably true in google's case here too. Like all this stuff is still very up in the area. But the thing we heard over and over in the last trial was google argument was google is very good, which is why we keep winning. And it's very hard to argue that there are Better products out there than google and yet google still lost because the argument came up over over that actually what good GLE is doing is preventing that from happening, right? That like maybe the reason there isn't more competition for google s because google has not allowed IT and and amid meta, the judge was very receptive to that argument uh this one in which the overwhelming thing seems to be actually this sucks and there's nothing anybody can do about IT is like even the way learn is covering in the first couple of days, you get the sense that the people accusing google of being one obliges are very confident coming into this and how how that means a little girl knows but there is a real sense of like the argument is extremely wrong in this particular case and it's it's onna come down. The market definitions are always does and it's going to get deeply monkey and i'm going to court at least once next week and I could not be more excited to listen to people yellowed me about add stacks for for weeks but but yeah, IT is like google is is both kind of feeling itself and fighting for its like flag all the same time.

It's very odd. I feel like I I need to disclose here um we have ads on our website that oh and in a box media .

president .

revenue girl friend house is on the list of potential witnesses in the street. Um um what I been talking about IT um I know he's going called he's just on the list because we run IT. We were on A A programatic C A and network called concert theod ally compete of google.

That's not truly not our side of the house. It's all over. I love, right, great hair. I will say that that's .

the one thing I know.

But like this thing where you say, like you're anybody listening, pull in a hard and think about the internet. That's my instruction to you. Do you like the ads that you're seeing? There's a million companies, a million ad tech companies that are like we can make Better ads and all of them like and then you run into the monster and you you give up.

Most of people flip the attack companies and they try to bundle them up, create a new monster, and I get rich, and then they live a healthy life. Linton, comply, you monster. Like like the role practice to this that is not like they're available to you and the reporting is easy to do. It's just kind of what you really trying to sell in audience, even what i'm trying to sell to you, right? Anything is like there's a reason as an international bed and it's because no one the market is not actually competitive for Better ad experience OK.

but which is worse ads now, the ad experience now or like in the ninety nineties, where IT would be a pop up of porn that would infect your computer.

Well, so in the nineteen nineties, I was a teenage boy like that rules. And this .

is great .

for the whole. Can I just say .

one more thing on this before we leave this subject? One of the things, uh, I have been paying a lot of attention to, and I am well aware that this is like a giant generalization, but IT IT has really jumped out to me in reading some of these so far, like a thing you hear a lot from people in and around the tech industry.

Is that like if if you want to believe that in the early days of the tech industry, IT was like a bunch of well meaning hibbs who, just like I wanted to make the world a Better place and then that eventually got morphed and ruined. They all blame the M. B.

S. They are like a bunch of people like graduated from harper business school and came here because they thought that the money was, and they changed the culture and they ruined everything. And like, boy, is that ring true when you read some of these documents, like to your point about these people being ice called, it's like, these are the N. B S. These are the people who like or you want to build a cool product.

And I don't care, we are in charge this money machine. Yes.

make money. And my god, is the thing that runs silicon valley now.

And it's just very hard because google such a good job of, for the most part, being like very cuddly like yeah, I think there's a reason google still has one of the worst logos in world history, like it's cuttery and dumb and it's still kind of exercise or drew herself, right? And there's there's a reason there was aside on youtube off like this is a company that. Its entire image was friendly.

And then, you know, in the background, erh mt. Former chairman and former cy of google just a few weeks ago was like, here's, here's an audience. I was running the company. I would steal everything, and they had the lawyer's cigarette copy a problem and then that because that's that's what you do with youtube, like fully we do with youtube.

Even the victim was done in a lawsuit uh, and their own people were kept uploading videos to youtube in the middle of last year, which is why the last it's a true story, but there's a ruthlessness inside of google that I never seeing playing out right now. And the thing in pointing out in particular is viewed a certain way, its products, the pixel products in particular, have never been Better. Yeah but they're good this time like they have a point of view, they have clarity. And then over here, the things that have been reliable, google, like A T S, are kind of in chaos because of the regulatory pressure.

And just not sure how that plays out together. What s when?

No mbs on the pixel team.

please.

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or wherever you listen to podcasts back flooding around. I will say that there are now ads on the youtube. When you watch the youtube, those are not official sponsors. Lighting around, lighting around, still rely sponsor.

There were so many commenters on youtube who were happy for us that we finally sponsored the living ground and all of you rooting for us. But IT is, give us money and then be happy about that.

I do get emails and I I try to take the money, but I don't know because of something I can be like. I take stripe, it's just not a coke. Um alright, let me around crt, which got.

you know how trucks are huge. This is actually kind of a set cause I know .

you love a big truck, I my baby.

but sometimes trucks are too big.

They are not. Sometimes.

many times the trucks are too big. If they come up to my shoulders, I like five, eight. That's that's all, uh, the U.

S. Is finally taking aim and they were proposing these new rules and they were going to use crash test stomach es. But instead of for crashing, its for pedestrians because are we're going .

around the car and the people this yeah just little pop and .

I think is really nice because a lot of the times now we've been seen these really big trucks and then you see all of these youtube videos and set of people in these really big tracks and and they can't see little kids in front of them and it's like somebody should check that out and apparently the government was like, we should that .

resume with the only way to to do that is to make the trucks smaller. I will never .

be able to describe to you why I just started imagining it's the beetles abbey road cover, but it's four crash test stomachs line of the bees. And then just like a cyber truck s off big.

a prompt coin soon, or a runway generator near you just immediately.

what pot in him?

But there is a lot of optimism about these rules. People seem to be really, really excited about IT. IT feels like it's it's a good first step. So it's after all these years of just watching the trucks get huge, it's nice to be like, hey, how about they don't get that tall?

So you like you're you're a truck guy. Is this lake? Is this gonna pissed off all .

the truck people? Sorry, I type the beatles of its crush. Need that the A I am in generate at the words so bad you this is what you get when there's literally no that senator day when you there's literally no safety standards on your AI and change, that's why pick rock because IT won't stop me their heads you ask yes, as a person who once owned the truck and still thinks of my truck family, 呃， for example, when I use rock to generate crash system, is is the beetle side cover, I think I moving back into the woods, my truck again, of being in society.

What I wonder is, do people buy the giant trucks because there are the good trucks and people want good trucks. If they make the good trucks little smaller, it'll be fine? Or have we gotten to a point where, like, I need big truck and if I if can't have big truck, big? mad?

No, I actually two things. There are two da points that kind of refute the idea that people actually want the big cars. This is people want big cars. One of the ford mac is a small truck that is a sell on the game busters OK. It's a hit.

It's a hit product um and then two people are starting to import these japanese k trucks s actually saw on at the apple event driving down the road in front apple park and I was I was like a attention magnet yeah and just these little trucks in the beds, they're like fight and have at beds. The beds are at the same size of full side truck. They're just small right there as you.

So but they're just small. And I think you're seeing a bunch of interest in small cars again, like the market wants them and then you look around and all the cars are so gigantic and any pens swing back and forth. There's like taxi for you, buy a car for your small business.

You can write off the full appreciation pushed like the dentist of amErica I join as to be um but I think that that is coming to an end. You're changing in some way. And so I just think like between the market, the real tory pressure and then just the reality, if you get the car is so big, you need cameras to drive IT, that's too much.

It's gotten weird, right? Like when the solution to we you can see children as we put the cameras all around the truck that can see the children for you. You're you're just in a weird spot.

So I think I look at like I surely enjoyed owning after IT was very fun, but I lived near no one and every time I drove that thing into new york city, I encourage if you ever have the opportunity to drive uh, four rector through the west village at night during dinner time when after sitting outside, listened to the cure with open windows. Take IT. I was just to wear experience all around for everyone.

Everyone was like what is happening right now the cars is incompatible. The city is incompatible to subbed. I live and now it's just too big was why I ve got rid of IT.

Um and I just see a push, particularly like the revision or three that's a small fish car yeah the iconic five, the onion ic five, it's it's actually big but they designed IT to look like a small car like it's S U V ish proportions, but it's designed to look like a classic cash bag. And I think people are attracted tude so many. Well, because I feel smaller IT isn't technically as small as IT looks. So I just think there's more interest in smaller stuff is opposed to just like full on new .

times frame into them. I was a friend got at one of the big round thirty five hundred ds, and I was like, hold on to have you like a step or something. How do we get into this thing .

just nigh marriage? Just just saying that one more time. I think about IT all the time the car ruled I home.

asking becket, if you can buy a big truck before it's illegal to have a big truck?

No, that's fine. We have a very crasky musing inside. It's a good time. But what you got so mine .

is news that actually happened like a right after the verge cast last week um but I have been thinking about ever sense which is that meta finally sort of showed off what what APP and messenger are onna look like now that they're being forced in a Operate with other chat networks. Uh this is one of things that has been sort of burbling forever.

We've known that this is going to happen because of some u regulation that basically says any sufficiently large message platform has to interOperate with other messaging systems. Uh, but there's just a couple of screen shots that they shot off. When they look great, you're going to be able to either have separate or combined in boxes the way you can have like multiple email accounts in one email client like this seems like obviously how they should work, excited that it's going to work that way.

I always kind of thought they were going to do like you have an inbox and then the like facebook side inbox thing that you have to like go wait of your way to do. But they are actually seem to make IT a sort of first party messaging system, which is equal. Uh and then also there is a screen shot that shows uh, basically how you will set IT up in each APP and meta invented to messaging apps just for the sake of the screen shots. One is called proofs and one is called blub. And I just I have been I have been designing and products managing spruce and burb all week um and I have a lot of thoughts about them as .

messaging apps. Which thing is .

Better through bb spruces like business is is like this is is kind of like where you go to to like linked in by blur is like you where it's just like it's just down the clown on blurb an blurb on baby yeah just like you you want a blurb later like .

that has connotations and you .

can only yeah well OK you're right blurr is more than .

you got IT .

you can you in blurred to be clear, you is a feature of .

flm and two super yos equals .

one plur it's important to understand that I I got IT I I ve .

had my first book yeah yeah is busy .

newton garden excited .

about blank for a minute bunk was .

you with bonks book was .

you with x bk was like, bunk was like real time collaboration U. Yeah but I I just think this is very cool. And um as as far as we can tell, all of this is just coming to the E, U.

A. again. This fascinating scheme m happening between the experience of technology in the united states and the E. U. And in many ways the E U, is going to be much cooler and more open and more interesting. But um just the way this looks to the way this works that has me like actually sort of excited about what messaging might look like. So I thought that was.

by the way, the E U. Think the invention ed is I think is going to mean part of my solution to how to review the iphones and talk with them because apple intelligence isn't coming to europe. So we're just going to make like european. I don't content consequently life from content and will make like freedom loving .

american content .

all eagles everywhere yeah where the I think just confidently sumi zing .

everything it's .

text summarised amErica more A I ism. But in a family this is legitimately I think we are most interesting AI product i've seen yet. Do tell.

So google has a thing called noble, actually has two different versions of this, this core idea. So google has this idea that have settled on this idea. They are going to take all of their eyes stuff where they can take a bunch of data.

They have big context windows for the model that can understand a bunch of documents. They have good voice synthesis, their own youtube. Here's their idea.

We're going to take a bunch of documents. We're going to turn them into a podcast with voices talking to each other. And so they they have one for scientific papers, which I believe we have accessible. We haven't really test very much. So inside of new book, elan, which is a AI power notes that the announced last year, David.

you're my notes. IT was IT was last year. And it's like if imagine a feature that should be in either google keep or .

google dogs but isn't and .

that's what no poc yeah anyway.

so in this APP, you can give you a bunch documents and I will just generate a podcast like two hosts talking about your documents. And IT is the kind of remarkably convincing have been reading .

a bunch about this and it's like I can sort of understand, but just hearing you say that sentence, you give me a bunch of documents that can generate a podcast I just wanted like .

throw myself out of. It's like like people have been using IT um in the podcast house used phrases like messy as heck, like they use idioms. It's just weird and it's like google has had this idea at twice delic.

You know that thing where creatures evolved to become crabs. It's like google A I efforts evolved to make podcast sort of document simple tanesha eve all twice inside of google. Um I think it's altering fascinating.

You can use IT now in opower. Um the weird one i've seen uh, is Robert Stevens, who is the founder of the geek squad, the actual gig squad invest the founder of the gig squad. T Roberts appears to be a member of the bennet value community association and onic, california.

Apparently the bending reality association has been having a lot of fights about whether to allow weed to be grown on farms there like commercial canis growing. And so he says he uploaded a bunch of dogs and like meeting notes and pdfs into this tool. And I just generated a podcast about this fight, that, for all the world, sounds a true crime, podcast about whether or not they should grow.

We, so we can I just play you the begin of IT, please? Yes, right. Ready to dive into another value date.

always. What do we have this time?

Well, today we're headed out west to sal accounting, california. Oh, nice one country. Not so fast. This isn't about a relaxing getaway. It's actually about a pretty heated controversy brewing in bennet .

valley value. Okay, i'm intreated. So IT all centers .

around commercial cannabis cultivation seems like a lot of place to been grappling with this since legalization. Yeah, right. It's like he didn't write the script. Here's just a bunch of weird minutes from board beatings and IT made a now is IT accurate did IT illuminate ate the the heat veness of this controversy?

I don't know did you suit IT that the A I needs a vacation super for that?

There's a partner here where um IT notes correctly, if you listen to IT for longer IT notes correctly, that um the boards of lawyers told that that its first to to ban cannabis cultivation uh would not work so the board back down and try a new legal avenue and issue the AI issues that is a criticism of the board which is faster for going the board publish but like that's to me. This is one of the most interesting uses of this text i've seen no one is making podcasts about snow down if we can. Rosy IT doesn't seem like their only force of technical.

Someone did make the podcast right.

but no, i'm interested in generally, can you make people more interested in the things that are happening in the community every day wherever you live? There is some board or H O A or town council that is doing stuff here. And there is a desert of local news of this country is not being covered.

If you can turn IT into weird true crime podcast. Is that actually useful service of ai? I don't know the answer to that question, but this is the most interesting thing that i've seen out of IT.

Yeah, yeah. All the same problems that is that gonna lose, that is IT telling the truth. Can I be manipulated by the people who are making IT? To be fair to one, is IT accountable. These are interesting.

To listen to is just an .

important question. Wine country?

Well, what I found I think the reason that Sparks such interest to me is not the one country uh they actually we're telling a story yeah no, as you go into IT, they're like you are mistakes. Here's the back and four. Here's the thing that happened.

Here's the next thing that happened. This is legitimately, they constantly do this, tell a story thing where they're like you're just driving in your car, in your kids, sad in the back, and you just have the A I tell you a story and that's always stupid. This is actually like an interesting .

use case of IT. There's things that actually happened yeah do I know not deep and i'm not a deeper and benefits we controversy and I yet if i'm gna be it's just interesting that one my google announced that this is again theyve come up with this twice down side girl, uh, and two people are are actually using IT, right? Like, this is someone who is on this board who is dealing with his controversies.

Like, I tried this out. This is good enough to share, right? This is to me, he thinks is enough to share. I think other people to use this other ways, is this going to make good podcast? I don't know.

Is this the most interesting sort of how do you get people to consider things in their like local community that IT would not have others SE considered attempt that i've seen in quite some time? IT sure is. Now do I think that this works? Every case is no book.

I am. Well, you just do anything. You put any random assortment of documents in there. Um i'm very excited to put like any one of our legal decisions and there like the google anti trust decision I want to make google make a podcast right like i'm very they are they going to do a Better job than we do.

But there's just something about all of the LLM stuff were always ever really doing is playing with language right? We've enabled natural language input. We've enabled computers to use language in ways that can do or it's actually this kind of thing that feels like the most interesting use case.

I don't know that this use case can support the hype or the investment, but actually like we can make your local politics somewhat more digestible to you. It's the first time I very like there. There's something going on that seems interesting, that doesn't seem like massive cup here, right left in the end of reality, which is how I usually evaluate .

these things. What the chAllenges is, can you have this use case without all that other stuff? You but but I agree that is an interesting use case. And I also like the the other news kind of of this ilk that came out this week was opening ee released a one it's new like reasoning capable model IT .

looks like a move first of all.

terrible name opening I said to the rob, the story there like go we think our names are bad. We tried to read that you did bad again sorry OpenAI oh one is nothing um but one of the things that IT does is you ask you a question and because it's a concrete reasoning model, IT takes longer to answer because it's just doing more steps at a time but IT will walk you through the steps that it's taking uh and and Kelly included the screen shot in which is saying things like this is the model reporting back as it's talking as it's thinking a lot. I'm curious about defining variables to translate the problem to algebra.

And then a minute later, i'm thinking through a new variable to measure time and establishing cleared definitions for years in the past. And like we're still down this road of making these things seem sort of human. It's like when you talk to syria and IT goes HMM or um and it's like.

is this is this the most irritating thing .

in the world? Fake, do I want the A I to pretend to be A? I guess like, what are you? Are you here for?

I want all of them to go and watch like a whole one of the stark c series, because they they actually do interact with computers like the computers, not irritating and .

all let me prot program.

T yeah, done.

The team machine. Is that like i'm thinking about which blend you might be?

I ve always to only announce and acceptive yeah very good. Um I will say just, you know, the people are going on me because I said something nice body, I say something dumb about I, which is met, has taken the AI labelled off of instagram or they're hiding them in a menu because none of that was ready. None of IT worked.

No one at any point of you in L L. Nothing matters. They just gave up we have just given up on this.

We're doing AI generated images of of elan. Musk is having a cat baby. That's a real picture that I saw this week. why? Why the end yeah said at .

all is .

like the real, the real pass minus. Maybe this will help people engage in local communities. I will have to see this picture, and there will be no label on IT because no one figured out how any of that works.

And maybe IT never will. That's IT. That's of your chest, everybody. Yeah, fold your phone in.

Any phone us doesn't have to actually be a fold.

just get out there and start fold phones and have. And that's IT for the verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you.

Give us a poet. Eight, six, six. Verge one one.

The verge cast is the production of the verge and box media podcast network, our showers produced by hand rer marino and leon James. That's IT we'll seen next week. Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A, A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced club.