E889 Ask Nick - Sleeping With My Doctor
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How's it going? Good. My name is Kristen. I am 30 years old and an applicant is sleeping with superiors, including my friend's husband. Should we tell the boss?

What do you mean by applicant? So this is a someone applying for the residency program. So my husband is a surgical resident. So these are doctors who are in training for their surgical specialties and they are doing applications for the incoming class of residents. So everyone involved is a doctor, an aspiring doctor?

Yes. Okay. All right. And this applicant slash med student slash doctor, everyone here, have they graduated from med school? Yes. All right. So technically they're all doctors. I'll call them doctors. It's more fun. It makes it more salacious. I guess the applicant will technically be a doctor in a couple months. Okay. All right.

The applicant. It's like the name of the movie, like an accountant. The applicant. How did we find out Dr. Applicant was sleeping around? Sleeping him or her? Her. We are like a really tight-knit program. So it's my husband who's actually in the program, but we're all really close. And so I'm really good friends with the wife of another resident. So she kind of

her incompetence told me that her husband was sleeping with this applicant. And did she tell you in like, uh, that that's a horrific thing to experience that you're making it sound like I got some tea and she told you in like the pantry while everyone else was having crackers. It was like not that big of a deal to her because they had recently decided that they were going to like have an arrangement. Oh,

where they would like be okay with sexual activity outside of their marriage. So you found out, okay, wow, layers. You found out from your friend that while the applicant was sleeping with her husband, she was in fact, you know, I don't know,

But it sounds like some of the other people are less agreeable, potentially, or you just don't know. Or is it possible that despite the closeness that you have with this group, there's like this secret orgy going on and she is just a catalyst? Like...

Seems like, well, there are others who I'm not sure how much information like everyone in the group has. I know that like my, of course, this friend, me and one other friend, we all have like all of the information. Some of the other people in the program are just

are just feeling like a little bit uncomfortable with like the level of flirtiness. And then also a like component of this is that we found out that she has like, she kind of like has a history of doing this, that she did multiple away rotations at different hospitals and that she slept with upper level residents at like all of her different rotations and

And the other hospitals, they've all like discontinued her application process.

I assume because of this revelation. But here at our program, I guess because it's still within, like this knowledge is still within our small group and hasn't reached higher levels. Like her, she's, you know, still in this application. How does your husband know about this? He does now. He does now. And what are his thoughts and feelings? His main concern is that he feels like the program is kind of being duped.

Like all of these other programs, like have their eyes open to what she's been doing, you know, hooking up with all the upper level residents, I guess, to, you know, sleep her way to the top or whatever her intentions are. And she's just really horny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But like, yeah, he just feels like our program's being duped maybe. And like, he just, he like feels kind of guilty, I guess, that they don't have all of the information just to make like an informed decision. Gotcha. Okay. But you at least have his support.

It's not like he's been asking you to be like, you know, listen, it's not our problem. Stay out of it. I don't need this going on in my life. He definitely is concerned about like creating waves. Like he definitely wouldn't want to have our name attached to it. If we did kind of warn the residency director about what was happening and, or, uh,

If we kind of went with it about like an anonymous amount of information, we are dealing with a workplace setting, correct? Just to be clear, this is not like I know you described like this is a group of friends. You probably get together for like game night and dinner parties and socialize. And the little bit I know about like the community in which you're talking about, like we're talking about like a young, a lot of young, ambitious, smart people who are

I don't know when you and your husband met, like got together at an early age and you have a lot of people who are like grinding it out, 16 hour days, whatever the fuck. They get this closeness with their peers, you know, and then like the their spouses all get together and everyone rallies behind these like doctors who like have to like go through it for. Right. And it's all kind of fucking crazy. And I'm guessing some couples make through it. Some couples have affairs. It's like a kind of like a gauntlet.

you know, almost right. Like, am I getting all this accurate? Like it's, it's kind of like, they should make a reality TV show about this shit. Like the wives of, you know, I don't, you, everyone probably wouldn't be that great of doctors if they made a reality TV show about it, but it's a cool concept. But I, yeah. Right. It's kind of crazy. Right. Yeah. That being said, it is a workplace function. And like, I'm guessing like there's HR, I'm guessing they have a whole, you, you, my point is like, you could probably make an anonymous tip of,

of some kind, I don't know. Like, I definitely think taking your husband and your name out of it, like is, is, is important. Yeah. Because we definitely don't want to, I don't know, cause further waves and yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's not your names attached because to be clear, what you know about this is a person involved came to you, but that person involved was like, honestly, like, you know, we're doing some weird shit these days. So like,

It's more or less tea. But she wasn't coming to you as like, I need your help. She was just gossiping with you. Right. And technically, it's not your problem, short of you having to worry about, you know, your husband's faithfulness to you. And that's exactly also why I'm like, not totally sure how to handle it. Because part of me feels like,

like kind of like the right thing to do to like have the program be informed and this could be like potential legal issue. I mean, I don't know all the policies, but I imagine that I don't know either. Yeah. And I'd probably advise a

against you if you're interested in my opinion about like again not getting too invested like this is not the opportunity for you to become like an online legal expert you know and like you know like I see people do this right like they get involved in something and like they feel like they're on the right side you know

You know? And they get a little righteous... And they get invested in fun... Because you get to play detective and cop... And you get to find out... It turns out... Like yeah... She's doing something illegal... Or whatever the fuck... Or whatever... I would be very careful... To you limit how emotionally invested you are... Certainly it's salacious tea... And if it's just going to be something... You gossip with your friends... Then gossip with your friends... And like... You know... Let the chips fall for what they may... But like... Understanding that like... To you know... On a pragmatic side...

you and your husband have made a huge emotional investment with your time. He's invested his whole career in this. This whole group of friends you have right now, half of them aren't going to make it. Maybe the doctors, I don't know. But it is a gauntlet and it's kind of like survival of the fittest. And

So I would be careful. If I were you, I would want to protect that more than anything else. And I think it's something to consider that this person you're describing sounds pretty toxic, right? Whether she's just horny, maybe she's sleeping her way to the top, I don't know. And it sounds like your friend and her husband, because they're opening up the relationship or doing something non-traditional, it's not necessarily causing drama in their life. But

But this has definitely the ability to escalate where it can really impact this group, this program, as you say, and indirectly could affect your and your husband's life. So if you're going to deal with it, I would deal with it more indirectly. And again, short of you being able to submit an anonymous claim to HR...

and let's decide whether they want to investigate or not, I probably wouldn't, I don't know. I'd probably be careful how invested I got. Yeah. And I also, this, my close friend, like the one whose husband is sleeping with the applicant, she is really concerned that this could come back and bite them. Like she's worried that he could get fired. The one who's your friends who's, yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And so I'm also concerned that I wouldn't want to betray her trust and have her husband end up

How close are you with the friend? We're pretty close. I mean, as a friend, I mean, are you close enough to be like, listen, I'm wild stuff you and your husband are doing, but like, maybe don't like shit where you eat type of thing. Like, is it, are you sure? Like this, this person has a reputation, whether you're cool with it or not, this is messy. And this could come back on you guys and you could come back on him and like, yeah, you're cool with it. But like, are you sure this is smart? Aren't there other people out there he could fuck around with? Like, yeah,

And that is the point I've made. I think at first they maybe didn't really realize that or think that through. And then like, I think partially from talking about it a little bit, like maybe not someone like directly that he works with, especially someone who's currently applying and he has a say in their application. Cause he does, he has power in this process. Who has power. And so that's,

The my friend's husband, the upper level resident who the applicant is sleeping with has say in the upcoming decision. So she's sleeping with a guy who like she's sleeping with her boss in a sense. She's up for a promotion. She's up for a promotion and he has a say in this promotion. Yes. That's crazy. Yeah. This guy, I mean, advocating for her. He's doing way more wrong than she is. And that's how it's going to look.

He's the man in this relationship. He's in a position of power. Like he is flirting with disaster. I, he definitely did not think this through. Now the deed's done. Fuck. And I think he's making a mistake by advocating for her because if she ends up here at this program, then you've just increased the chances of this information getting out that she

they were sleeping together during the application process. Who knows if they will continue to, but if she's around, that just increases the chances of this information

yeah getting around as far as you know who knows so my close friend who's the wife and me and our other close friend so that the three of us ladies and then i have i told my husband all right everyone everyone's gonna find out i'm not sure if it's gone any further than that yeah everyone's gonna find out too many people know

Everyone tells somebody in the world of like, you promised you don't tell anyone, take this to your grave. It's like, yeah, no, for sure. Like everyone has their other person. They take something to the grave and already like five or six people know. And at the very least,

Many people are suspicious because they see them, you know, being blurtier, at the very least friendlier than you would expect. And is your husband, is he also in a like senior level? Is he at the same level as this girl or girls?

He is in between. He is also a resident, but he's currently a lower level resident. Gotcha. All right. Damn, this is messy. Well, the good news for you and your husband is like, you're not involved. Right. I've been trying to play out like, okay, what's the worst case scenario? And I mean, it's really, it's pretty limited. Like if I really stretched it, she could end up here and continue. Yeah.

to cause drama and distraction and potential legal issues. And that would, and if that got out, hurt the reputation of the program and potentially bring legal issues. Sure, sure. But I think that's, like the chances of that happening and personally affecting my husband and I are huge.

relatively low yeah i mean it sounds this is more like for you like the friendship element yes how good are friends is your husband with her husband they are more like professional level friends because like yeah he should be i mean maybe that's i don't know i mean this is more of an idea and less of advice but i'm just kind of working through it in my head

You know, like my first thought I asked that question was like, oh, if he's buddies with them, maybe he needs to talk to his friend and be like, dude, you know, you need to cut this shit out. The fact that they're more like working colleagues with the fact their wives are friends. Like, does your friend, do you think your friend is expecting you or thinks that you wouldn't tell your husband this tea? I think that she would prefer that I didn't tell my husband.

Well, and I mean, she has an open relationship with her. I'm not sure what she realistically expects. I'm not sure. Gotcha. So for him to go to him, would you put you at risk of violating her trust, even though I think she would be stupid for assuming that you wouldn't tell your husband? Yes, potentially. Though I think that my husband was already suspicious beforehand. So I think that

They could realistically have a conversation that. Yeah, your husband after what you your husband would have to like kind of fit and not be like I heard of your wife told my wife and I know what's going on. He would have to be more like, hey, man, what's going on? I'm hearing a lot of rumors.

uh people are talking and honestly that's definitely still something to consider if he took that approach like i think your husband kind of needs to stay out of it and maybe he gives like gives him like a talking to but like i get what you're saying like this is an uncomfortable situation that while you're you're not really gonna you're not really at risk of anything it's like it's not good it definitely like is going to affect people's lives and it's gonna you know you know yeah it's drama

And what should otherwise not be the case. But I don't know. Maybe shit like this happens all the time in these types of arenas. I don't know. I don't know if you've heard other stories. I think that it's probably relatively common for people who are at the same level maybe to be hooking up. I think that anyone with a brain would probably avoid the power dynamics of an upper-level resident and

but I mean, who knows? This guy's putting his entire career at risk. I mean, so is she, but like she's, you know, based on what you're telling me, she's has a history and a reputation of doing things and allegedly has been kind of kicked out of other programs for this behavior. So if she's still doing it now, like, I don't know, she seems on some level of knowing what she's doing and she seems to be okay with it. I mean, he, I guess should be too, but,

But like, you know, I could see a world where here is your friend and her husband, like going through whatever they're going through as a couple, you know, high stress, busy hours, yada, yada, feeling disconnected. Like, let's open up the relationship.

And now he's just kind of, I guess, excited or focused on that. And like in his mind, since he's gotten the green light from his wife, then he meets this horny colleague and he's not thinking about power dynamic and it's not, you know, giving him the benefit of the doubt.

But no, a lot of people wouldn't be giving him this benefit of the doubt, including his superiors. But if I were to try to give him the benefit of the doubt, I could see a world where like, yeah, he's not thinking this through and not thinking clearly.

And this arrangement is like brand new. So I think he's just like a puppy dog, not thinking brand new arrangement. Yeah, let's go. First person I see. And it makes, and listen, like, you know, I think that there's a lot of couples out there who like, whether it's an open relationship or like they decided like, let's mix it up and let's have a threesome. And it's just like, all right, great. Well, like, who do we ask? Cause that's weird. And then like, they just assume they'll find their like one kind of freaky friend.

And or colleague and be like, they'll do only realizing like that kind of makes it super fucking weird after the fact. And they don't think that through. They're just trying to figure out like, how can we have a threesome with the couple and without like going on like, you know, Craigslist.

Exactly. And I think it was probably a little bit along the same lines of when he's advocating her. The meeting already happened where they, like, in theory, make their decision, but they haven't made that decision official yet. That decision doesn't become official for a few more weeks. Right.

So the, but at least on paper they have, and I don't know, this is closed off information to my husband, of course me. So I don't know what that decision says, but at least in that meeting or the meeting leading up to it, that my husband was in along with this upper level resident, he was, you

hot new little girlfriend to be here and not thinking through the consequences of that and i think now he's starting to realize that this could potentially end his career but well if he's starting to realize and yeah i don't know how he navigates this but he's not the one calling in um

Yeah, he needs to shut it down. I mean, it's like if my advice to him as a friend would be shut it down as quickly as possible and cross your fingers. Yeah. So should I just kind of give that advice to my friend and be on the bat? Yeah, as a friend, I would, yeah, kind of as a friend, be like, listen, this is,

you know, as a friend, I love you. I want to support you. And like, you know, but like, have you guys thought this through? Because like, there's a lot like, do you realize what you guys are potentially risking? Like people get fired for this shit. Like this would, this could, this will follow, this could follow him forever. Yeah. Like as a man in 2025 in a position of power, like sleeping with their subordinates, like,

Not a good look. Hopefully she's just a horny person who likes to fuck around. Hopefully she's not the type of person who would weaponize that against someone if she didn't get what she wanted. I don't know. But I don't know how toxic this person is. But there's some bad signs. So I would tread very lightly with that person.

But hopefully she's just a horny person who he shuts it down and slowly lets her, I don't know, find someone else, I guess. Distances himself. And then we just hope that if she does end up here at this program, that she doesn't. Well, yeah. The good news is short of her

let's say he distances himself from her, stops sleeping with her, doesn't even advocate for her, or maybe advocates for her, but behind the scenes, and she doesn't get the placement that she wants. What he has going for him is that she would have to out herself as well to out him. She looks short of her making some outrageous claim that let's assume is not true, that this is all consensual.

She's not doing herself any favors by outing herself, but that's assuming she can get a job. Right. And I think that even though there is still some risk with that, that's the best case scenario is that she ends up not here, but she does get a position somewhere else and like...

at least for us and our program and our friends, this is all in the past. I just think that it's looking like that if nothing changes, there is a decent chance that she is going to end up here at our program.

Yeah, I would think I would be right now. I think your focus should be a friend to your friend and just kind of reiterate like, yeah, this is crazy. I just want to be your as far as I'm concerned, as far as my place in this is I'm here to just be your friend, whatever you need. You know, I'm here. But like you, you should think this through and you and Danny or whatever his name is.

this is crazy and like you need to talk to your husband and if you guys want to open up a relationship tell him to go out to the bars or something because yeah

you're playing with some serious fire here and he needs to stop he needs to cut this shit out otherwise this is really gonna really blow up like people are gonna find out it's just people are gonna find out yeah anyone at work seems like it's messy but yeah if his wife's telling people level when it's yeah when it yeah well at first she was just excited about the arrangement and that like

her husband was bothering her less for sex. And so at first she was just like, yeah, isn't this like an interesting, fun, new thing going on? I don't even think she realized at first that this was problematic. Yeah. And I, I, I believe that, but yeah,

Yeah. It's a little messy. Okay. But yeah, so I'll just focus on being a good friend. It's not, it's definitely not your problem. Yeah. At the moment, maybe your husband is just like comes home and like, shit's gotten real messy at work and blah, blah, blah. Like I,

I think you need to follow your husband's lead when it comes to escalating this to the workplace. And then you'll have to consider whether you, you know, this friendship really means anything to you, but like you and your husband are not at risk of anything. Like you said, that you really can think through, you know, and, and consider. And so right now it's just, you just have a very front row seat to other people putting a lot of risks in their laps. The one idea that my husband has,

like is somewhat seriously considering is going to the program director and saying like, Hey, the, this applicant told me that their interview process was discontinued at both of the other institutions that they rotated at. I thought that was weird. Do you know why? And I,

just leave it as a like i heard this information i thought it was weird do you happen to know why um and not directly get involved in what's happening here but i don't know if even that is i mean that's definitely an option i if if i were you i would sit down with your husband and think this through together before you guys do anything

because I just think this sounds like a small enough community and enough of people already know that it's just highly unlikely that if you and your husband get involved, that you're going to remain completely like anonymous and like avoid any like shrapnel coming your way, so to speak. And listen, I would follow your husband's lead on like decisions that he makes as it relates to work because it's his work.

And, you know, this is your friendship to maintain. But like, as long as you guys aren't at risk, knowing that, you know, you have to be careful knowing that like you're quote unquote right on

so to speak, and not making it your business. Because even though you're not really right, you're not doing anything wrong, and you see other people doing things wrong, and you're just kind of playing judgey jury. And again, as a friend, you can go to your friend and say, hey, listen, as a friend, I'm here to, if you haven't thought this through, I've thought it through for you, and you guys are playing with some serious fire.

I don't know what you do about it, but like you should talk to your husband and maybe you guys need to like shut that shit down and like go explore other ways of like doing interesting, goofy things with your marriage. Because like this is going to get real messy. And you could say to your friend, if anything, people are talking, you know, like people are talking. It's getting around. I would I'd be very careful. Part of me and I just also need to like.

get over this part of me just feels a little bit guilty as well for the program director that she's like potentially stepping in shit and doesn't even realize it but who's the program ultimately

So the boss, so the person who is ultimately in charge of the program. Is a woman. Yes, she's a woman. She's very, and this is like a male dominated program. And she really makes an effort for the program to be very family friendly and like tight knit. And I just feel a little bit bad for her if she kind of ends up now in this position

situation where she has to deal with all of this added drama in her program well i mean i don't know that's that's what she's a leader sometimes leaders have to deal with shit i don't know yeah and like you know maybe maybe creating a close-knit family community is like not the thing to do and uh yeah a high you know high stress high demand away from your loved ones like it's

You know, doctors are, you know, doctors are really smart people at a lot of things. And sometimes when it comes to like interpersonal, like decision-making, when it comes to relationships, like they're not the best at like, you know, they're, they're like cranking open the biology books and like cutting open bodies. And like, she's like, let's be a family. And everyone's like, I don't know. Why am I so horny? I don't know. Like, like, no, but I'm serious. Right. Like,

So I don't know, maybe, maybe this, this leader, this boss, you know, she has some, you know, everyone's hopefully, hopefully everyone learns from this, right? If they, if there's anything to be learned, you know, but it's not your job to protect her job and her feelings. And right now, protect your friend, give your friend whatever advice you think she needs to hear.

Follow your husband's lead. Obviously be supportive of him, but I would both caution, I'd caution you to challenge each other to really ask ourselves, is this really our business? And are, you know,

do we need to say something at this point? Because who's really at risk? You know, like we have to assume that this, this, this girl is having consensual sex with this man who's having consensual sex. Yes. There's a power dynamic here, but like one of more optics because like, you know, she has power to like, clearly this person, the way you're describing her as someone who like very much knows what she's doing. She's very much in control. She's seeing sounds like she's pursuing these relationships. She's like, kind of like she's on the,

so to speak, you know, when he's like the horny husband who just got a hall pass and like kind of being taken advantage of in a weird way. Like no one's going to buy that narrative by the way, but like there could be some truth to that. But like,

You know, that's all that's really going on here. So what I'm hearing is they're not really at risk other than risking their own jobs and careers and having a reputation. They don't want to follow them. But that has nothing really to do with you and your husband. And I would I would just be very careful about, you know, unless that changes, I wouldn't change your decision making tree, so to speak.

Yeah, I agree. That makes sense. I'll just focus on being a good friend, giving advice to my friend and let the chips fall where they may with the rest of it. All right. Please keep us posted. I really, I would, I would hate to not find out if anything, how things play out. Yeah, we'll do. All right. Thanks so much for your time. Take care. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye. This episode is brought to you by

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Making you wonder that. We started seeing each other two years ago. Actually, our first date was a year ago yesterday. And we kind of were like in this often, like we started seeing each other and it went really, really quick. Like,

He was driving me to the airport. We were meeting each other's families super, super quickly. I'm a little bit younger. I'm 24. He's 28. And it was kind of like a dream come true, fairy tale type situation. And we actually didn't even sleep together until after we met each other's families. And that was kind of different for me from any relationship I had experienced before. And what was the reason for that? Did you say...

like who is deciding to take things slow? Him. It just never happened that way. I guess like we were constantly like going out and like doing things. It didn't feel premeditated. It just like organically, you know, it was organically, it was different, but he may be, if anything was different than some of the other men that you had been dating where they all were like very horny, very early feeling like they were just like, do I

do I take my pants off now or later? And he was more like, let's go on a walk and play mini golf. Yes. Also at the time we both lived with our parents. So that also played into it. So a bit of a cock block. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. A little bit. And so then fast forward, there was a lot of parallels before we met. The reason we met was actually because I was seeing his friend before him, the friend and I went on like four dates. It wasn't anything serious. And,

He wasn't looking for a relationship. Very amicable. We stopped talking. Two days later, the friend reached out to me and that's when we started seeing each other. We kind of kept it under wraps because I was the one that said, I don't want you to blow up a friendship if this isn't actually going to be anything. So like, I want you to wait to tell him. And we were kind of both on the same page about that.

And then Memorial Day weekend. What's the friend dynamic again? I got a little confused there. They're friends. They're just like really close friends. This other guy you were talking to? Yes. Okay. That's how I knew who my situationship was. Like he followed me on Instagram while I was talking to his friend. Gotcha. Gotcha. And then DM'd me on Instagram after we stopped talking. Right after you stopped talking? Like the next day. So he must have known somehow.

Yes, he did know. And he told when we first started talking, he told me a lot about the guy that I was seeing that like some bad things. He talked shit. Maybe he necessarily wasn't a good guy. So he talks shit about his alleged friend? Yes. Okay.

Yes. To Red Flag. So then fast forward to we both go to the same beach town. We actually have houses on the same street across from each other. And so when we first started talking, I thought this was going to be that was like the dream situation. I was like, that's amazing. He was doing a house in a beach town a little bit north with a bunch of his friends for the summer. And the guy I was talking to before was in that house. And I...

And I kind of put the pressure on of like, I want you to tell him because we are actually like dating now and you need to tell him. So he said he told him, he said it went really poorly. So I couldn't really come to the house very often. We couldn't really see each other that much that summer. And it was kind of like pulling teeth to make plans with him that summer. And then... So wait, wait, wait. You started hanging out with this guy. It's going pretty well. Yeah. It started right after he...

So just to summarize, you were talking to a guy. Yes. That, I don't know, didn't go anywhere. And this four dates, it was, you went on four dates with a guy and this guy's friend was

And that ended. What did it, did you meet this guy before or after it ended? I met him on FaceTime when I was with the other guy, but I'd never met him in person. All right. So you're hanging out with this guy and while you're hanging out with this guy, this other guy somehow Facebook's messages you and says like, Hey, my friend, the guy you're seeing, he's not a great guy. You shouldn't date him.

Uh, and then you stop for whatever reason, maybe partly because of his advice or not, you start, you stop hanging out with that guy. And then like a day later, this other guy who claimed to be the other guy's friend who's talked shit about him is like, Hey, what's up? We should go like mini golfing. And then you start hanging out with them. It's going pretty well. It's like, it seems different. It seems nice. It seems fine. You're having, you know, you meet each other's families. And then all of a sudden you're like, we're like, Hey, we've been dating. We're hanging on a regular basis at this point. Have you had sex?

Yes. Okay, you're hooking up and then you guys have these, you know, summer places that you go to and it's like you're across the street from each other and you're like, this is going to be fun. We're going to have a super fun summer. And then you're like, but you need to tell the guy I went on four dates with because that's like kind of weird. Also your buddy, by the way. And he's like, yeah, for sure. And he's like, oh, I told him it kind of sucked. It rubbed him the wrong way. And like, yeah, we like, we're still like kind of dating, but like you can't ever come over. And

It's the summer of fun, actually. Exactly. Yes. And he was also very like I initiated the hooking up more than him. Like he was a lot less into that part. And that always made me pretty insecure because my past like I had guys that like that's all they wanted. And at first I liked it. But then it grew to make me pretty insecure because I'm like, why are we doing this? Like why?

once every week or two weeks. Like I thought that was weird. While he's having the summer fun and you can't go over to his house, you're still like calling him up every once in a while, like begging for sex. I wouldn't say begging, but yes.

Asking and initiating. Initiating. Yes. Um, and then September rolls around. We both are back home. We start seeing each other a bunch more. I'm thinking, Oh, this is great. This is what I wanted. The summer doesn't matter. Awesome. Okay. His birthday was in November and I take him out to dinner for it. Um,

And then the next night he was going up to hang out with some friends. I was going back down to the beach town with some of my friends and he was really drunk on the golf course. And like, I could kind of tell something was up. We also shared locations with each other, like throughout all of this. That's great. By his request, not mine.

At this point, have you had any conversations about boundaries, what you guys are, titles, expectations, rules? No. So you share each other's locations, but as far as you know, you can fuck as many people as you want and no one has the right to say shit.

Essentially, I guess. We had talked about rules and expectations back in May, but once we started kind of seeing each other again in September when things got more serious again, we never reset those expectations, I guess. And I was kind of just happy that he was giving me what I wanted again. Sure. And so then...

the night he was like golfing, he was really drunk. And I like looked at his location. He was in the car. I was like, okay, I'm going to call him. He didn't answer. And he's like, I'm in the car. I can't answer. And in my mind, I'm like, that's weird. Like you're probably with someone you shouldn't be with in the car then. Like he's being really weird about answering me this night. So I'm never the kind of person that like calls more than once, texts more than once, but I was like, something's going on. And so I called him a couple of times. He didn't answer. At two in the morning, I get a FaceTime from him and I was so excited. And it was this girl. And,

And he was passed out and drunk in the Uber. And she was like, hi, like, are you so-and-so's cousin? And I was like, no, absolutely not. Like, I took him out to dinner last night, actually, for his birthday. And all of the girls in the car start freaking out. They start cursing him out. They shh.

shove him out of the car, rip his shirt. I am so confused. And he's blacked out at this point. I had no idea what was going on. And so then me and him got coffee the next morning and I found out that he had started seeing that girl in July over the summer. And it was this girl that he was really good friends with that he would hang out all the time. That was his old boss. It was her sister. So

So he never technically lied to me about where he was because he would always tell me was when he was with that friend and that. Yeah. He lied to you. Well, yeah, he, he lied to me and I was struggling a lot because I'm like, we weren't actually dating at this point, but it like felt like being cheated on and like,

He lived this double life, but I was kind of the one in the background. She was constantly with all of his friends down at that beach town. He was like, I could bring her around because it wasn't a problem with my friends and I didn't want to cross my friends. And I'm like, well, you made that decision when you reached out to me and basically made it seem like he was like, I was two-timing you guys and I got caught. And I was devastated by this.

Ended up talking to him again about two weeks later. Spent Christmas together that year. This is last year. After you caught him? Huh? After you caught him? Yeah. You kept hanging out with him? Yeah.

And I'm guessing, for all you know, the other girl smarted up and stopped seeing him? She blocked him on everything and never talked to him again. And you were just at the consolation prize? I guess. I guess you could say that. I was the one that initiated keeping talking to him. This was also my first, the most serious I had ever been, really, with anyone. So then...

ended things on New Year's Eve last year was not and was like I am not into a serious like relationship at the moment and I was like okay I was sad but then about a month later he reached out again and then we were just in this on and off just like situation he would reach out I would ignore him I would reach out he would ignore me all these things fast forward to last summer and

Our house, he was actually at his house that's across the street from mine. And we had really been hanging out again. And then all of a sudden I get a text on like a Friday before I went down the shore. And he was like, I don't think we can be friends. I'm seeing someone. Meanwhile, four days before that, we were hanging out.

And then I literally had to watch him bring this girl down to the shore right across like I could see his house from my bedroom window. And like we were on the same beach pretended like he didn't know me they were seeing each other for like a month. I was moving across the country. Two months after that.

So I had this big move coming up. I got a new job and was like trying to do better for myself, trying to move on. He was seeing that girl for like a month. It devastated me. He had her down the shore every weekend and then they stopped talking. He blocked my number for like a week and then called me on Instagram. I didn't even know you could do that. And I was just so confused by all of this. He stopped seeing her.

started seeing me again. Then I moved across. All right. I'm going to cut you off for a second. Where, where are we? Where are we today with this guy? He has me blocked on everything. Is you blocked? Oh, wow. Okay. No, no, I didn't block him. He blocked me. No. Yeah, I know. Uh, yeah, I understand. Where do you emotionally stand with this guy? Uh,

I have been blocked for about a month now. I still think about it every day, which I think is really hard for me because I am not used to feeling that way about someone. It takes me a lot to really love someone. Feeling what way about someone? Thinking about them every day. Sure. I don't think... And how do you interpret those feelings? Like, what do you think that means to you?

I get sad because I feel like, you know, if I the classic, like if I was enough, then like he never would have started seeing that other girl. And like we would be in a different spot. Maybe I wouldn't have moved like all of these like moving parts, like being I'm so mad at him. But I'm also but I also miss him. Sure. But are you not like do you think you love him? I thought I did.

But I don't know how I could love someone that would do such bad things to me and show me that he doesn't give a shit. Well, all right. So listen, you started by calling and asking if he was a narcissist. I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. He's certainly done some selfish things. He has done some narcissistic things. I'd be willing to bet he's no more of a narcissist than...

I don't know, most people in their 20s in your average fuck boy. By today's standards, sure, maybe he's a narcissist because everyone online who like pisses you off and thinks for themselves is a narcissist to somebody else. But like the internet's full of narcissists calling other people narcissists in my mind. But yeah, sure, he's done some selfish things. I think what's, and that's really not relevant as far as you're concerned, from my opinion. My opinion is,

You need to kind of wake up and realize that like you are not the victim anymore in this situation, that like you are now a product is certainly the past like year, year and a half because it's been going on for how long? A couple of years? Two years now. Yeah. Two years. You know, maybe the first incident, but certainly after you found out he was two timing you.

And then this other, and then that girl decided to finally like, she, she woke up, she heard the truth and she decided that like, I'm no longer gonna let a person treat me this way. And she blocked him as far as you know, on everything and moved on with her life. And then you took that as an opportunity to like claim victory and say that he was mine. And then from that moment forward, you stopped being the victim in the story. And, and, you know, well, he stopped being the, you know,

You stopped being the victim as far as he was concerned and you were victimizing yourself. You have put yourself in this situation. Like these are your choices you have made. And I, and I say that to you because in my opinion, you're much better off taking accountability for your choices that you can control because clearly you have no ability to control him and you've created a monster. You have played a role and,

helping this person, you know, like he, yes, he hasn't called. I'm not talking to him. I don't know who this person is. You know, he has a lot to be accountable for and he's made certainly a lot of choices and we can all agree he's a piece of shit and fuck him and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, that's not helping you at all. And that doesn't get you anywhere. And you need to wake up and realize that like you,

You have just become obsessed with this situation. You have become obsessed with winning. You've become obsessed with him picking you and decided that your worthiness, all of your worthiness, all of your self-respect, all of your self-confidence is wrapped up in his approval. And you have given him that power. You have turned him into that. Like that is a product of a decision you made naturally.

not a decision he made yeah that's super accurate well and the reason i cut you off is because like i'm sure you've told this story in great detail you're so good at telling the story you remind me of me when i was telling very similar stories about ways i felt victimized by the way people treated me and i just very much conveniently left out all the ways i was mistreating myself

In all the ways that like I chose winning over being happy. I chose being right over being happy. And by right, it's just like when I say, you hear me say all the time, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Right now, you're just like, you will talk to anyone who's willing to listen to tell your version of the story, how you've been taking advantage of by this narcissist, piece of shit guy who never, you know. Meanwhile, you've given him every opportunity to regularly listen

over and over play you so much to the fact that he's blocked you like he is setting a boundary with you because apparently you have you know i say this with love but tough love you have like given up all self-respect and turned into someone who's just like almost to the point where like he

He doesn't want you to reach out because again, and you have allowed yourself to be his backup plan. You have made yourself readily available whenever he is single and available to be the person who's willing to have sex with him and hang out with him at his convenience when he wants to. And that's all you are to him. And that's all you'll ever be at this point.

Yeah, that is, my mom tells me all the time that I had no self, I have no self-respect if I were continuing talking to him. So it's definitely, it's true. I feel like I've always kind of struggled with like self-confidence in general with guys. Well, you can clearly get men, you know, like you just have to choose, you know, and like, this is not the moment for you to feel sorry for yourself and pity yourself and

You know, you, you gotta get, you, you need to start believing yourself. I don't, therapy is always a great option. I'm a bit of an advocate. I'm not, I'm not saying it's the end all be all, but like you can get men clearly. Like that's not an issue. Yeah. That's, you know, that's what I think I struggled with because it's like he did. I felt like I was constantly fighting to get back to where it was in the beginning. And like, but that was just so long gone. I mean, that's the biggest difference between you and women who don't get themselves in these situations.

You know, listen, I get it. Like, I don't know what your opinion of yourself is compared to your peers. Right.

But regardless of what you look like or how much money you have or your ability to make people laugh or your charm or whatever it is, at the end of the day, I've seen in a world where tall men get every opportunity and every privilege in the world when it comes to dating, I've seen great looking tall men be just terrible with women and awkward and like put themselves in like,

And allowed women to run circles around them just because like they follow their ego. They make it all about winning. They make it all about like putting their value in the prey. You know, I've been that person.

right you know and so like he's not tall whatever but fine even more like but the point is that again that's you're kind of making my point the point is is like this is a person who is like he's more interested like he probably feels like a narcissist to you because what he is is very much interested as a 28 year old man in his needs and that's more than anything his biggest priority

And yeah, like it's self, it's very selfish for sure. And, and, and demonstrating narcissistic tendencies, right. And thinking of himself, sure. But like, you know, you have, and you're thinking of yourself also, but you have made it all of your, your, your value is in this man's praise. He doesn't need your praise to feel valuable. He probably doesn't need any girl's praise right now to feel valuable.

- Yeah, and I think when I moved, I'm across the country now, so it's even more pointless to have it still take up head space. And I'm definitely trying, I do go to therapy. I honestly think my therapist at this point is pretty fed up with hearing about it. - But then you gotta stop talking about it. You're at that point where you have to acknowledge to yourself that you can control your thoughts.

Because right now you are not. You have turned this into an identity for you. You are wearing this relationship like,

all over yourself, you know, like it's the, it's the thing you enjoy talking about the most, the most, as much as it makes you miserable, it's your favorite thing to talk about. Yeah. I never thought about it like that, but yes, that's very accurate. And you need to stop and you, you know, and it's not going to be easy. You're addicted to it. You're, you've, you know, like it's no different than like, you know, I don't know if you've heard me talking about like obsessive, like I'm off sugar, but like, you know, I, I,

I hope I can keep this on forever, but probably not, right? At some point, there's going to be this gorgeous chocolate cake and I'm going to be like, fuck it. I don't care. I'm going to try a bite. But I'm going to break the seal, right? And then I'm going to just, you know, and sometimes, and the reason I got into this whole cleanse is because for a period of time, I was really just like,

fucking just eating a lot of fucking dessert, you know? And I just kind of got a little addicted to it. I got into a routine of this being comfortable with eating shitty foods over and over and over where it just, it kind of became

A routine. And it becomes harder to break those routines. And this has become your routine. It's part of who you are. It's part of your day. But that means you can stop that routine. It will be difficult. It will, like anything you're comfortable with and used to, and you try to break that routine,

and you try to cleanse or fast or whatever, you know, it will come with its challenges and it will be harder early on. But like, you got to hold yourself accountable and you got to stop thinking about it. Like you really probably should stop thinking about it with your therapist. You know, ruminating about this with your therapist isn't getting you anywhere. I mean, he or she will like certainly like to keep charging you.

For sure. Of course. You know, but like, you're not getting anywhere. So like, you need to like, get rid of shit that reminds you of him. I don't, you gotta like, stop yourself from stalking him on Instagram. When he pops in your head, you gotta find shit

to, you know, hey, fuck, I'm doing it again. And it will, it will pop into your head. But instead of spending the next 30 minutes ruminating about it and telling the story to an imaginary person in your car while driving, because I guarantee you've done that. You've like, literally, I mean, you've just, I know this because I've done this too. Like, you know, I'm not calling you out. I just know, I just, I've been you. Yeah. Yeah.

I started reading the Lethem Theory book by Mel Robbins and I have been highlighting the shit out of it because I feel very... It's the same for, yeah, Mel, like whatever, she has a lot of good things to say. It's the same premise. You are giving, you know, all this energy, you know, but like, you have to be mindful of, and again, like, whether it's advice from Mel Robbins, advice from me, you know, all we can do is like say the same shit over and over to people like you, but you're going to have to put this into practice. And, you know, even

Even me telling you, you know, it's like, I'm still talking about them with you. So even though we're doing this, it's like you could, you know, let them. Sure. Only applies if you actually let them. You saying let them over, you know, you know what I'm saying? You have to actually do the thing where like you have to let them saying let them like as you just catching yourself. Right. That is the moment in which you go, you're doing it again. All right.

And now you need to like, what is the thing you were going to think about it instead? And are you going to like ask your friends to hold you accountable to be like, I don't want to talk about it anymore. If I do, you have my permission to tell me to shut the fuck up and be like, we're not talking about that. My friends here, they have now instituted a rule that if I bring him up, they get to pretend like I'm not part of the conversation because like, I'm a yapper. I love talking. That's, it's just my thing. And,

And they get to have a conversation and pretend like I'm not even there. And they're not, they're just going to ignore me for like five minutes, which I've appreciated. And I think I realized that like,

talking about it made me subconsciously still feel connected to it in some way. And like, even having access to social media or whatever it was, like, I still felt connected to him or end the situation. And like being blocked, honestly, like, has hurt a lot, but it has definitely also helped it not completely live rent free in my brain. I think about it every day, but definitely not as much. What do you mean? And what are you thinking about?

You know, I think about how it was in the beginning. I think about missing that aspect of things. I think about how he betrayed me, but also, like you said, I'm not really the victim anymore ever since I decided to go back. And actually, when I moved to where I live now, I

I met a girl at a bar and we were chatting and she was really cool. And I really wanted to be her friend. And I later, and then I found out we connected the dots that she was best friends with the girl that he two-timed me with. And it kind of just like the first person I met when I moved here. I'm sure you saw that as like some sign. And that was probably the worst thing for you. You got toe motion. Yeah. Yep. That's exactly what happened. Yeah. Nightmare. Yeah. Listen, I, you know, I don't know this guy. Maybe he's,

I doubt he's a villain. I think he's just another immature fuck boy who got caught.

and he definitely needs to grow up and hold himself accountable. And I hope he does. And I hope he, in a few years, reflects back. And I hope you never hear from him regardless. And I hope for him that like whoever he ends up with is like, you know, maybe he ends up with a type of woman who, you know, will hold him accountable and be like, yeah, you were kind of a piece of shit to women, you know, sometimes. And he should be like, yeah, I, you know, I definitely made some mistakes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because I really think like, honestly, like,

you know, maybe I'm naive. I think 90% of people are good. I do. Me too. And I think 90% are good people who were all selfish assholes at some point in our lives, you know? I have been. Sure, you know? I was talking to...

a friend who's going through something right now and some of their friends like haven't really stepped up for them. And that sucks, you know? And I had to remind my friend, it's just like, I totally get it. I've been that friend that you're mad at before. And I've been that friend who was so caught up in my own bullshit that I wasn't capable of being the type of friend that they needed, which is like, kind of reminds me of you right now.

You know, like for different reasons, right? Like there may be people out there that have expected you to be a better friend and more selfless than you were. And you haven't been there for them because you've been feeling sorry for yourself for two years.

And you have justified your own, you, you know, you have whatever you, whatever shortcomings you had as a friend or a sister or, you know, or a daughter, you know, you have justified because you're sad. Think about narcissism. Like you've, all you're doing is thinking about your own damn problems every day. Yeah. And that has stopped you from, you know, when I was like heartbroken, I started like, you know, one of my big heartbreaks, I started volunteering every Saturday.

At a food pantry because I was just trying to get out of my own fucking way. I was just so I was obsessed with my own problems.

And that's narcissistic. You know, that's, you know, you know, you want, you want to hurt the narcissist here, but I'm just, you know, like, I'm not saying you're a narcissist, but my point is, as I think most people, and I probably would include him is like, just like generally good people who have to grow up and mature and, and, and apologize to people. And they do things that they have to be held accountable for. And hopefully they account for themselves.

like the narcissists out there are the wolves in sheep's clothing. They're the ones who like, you know, know what they're doing. It's very calculated. And they're like, that doesn't sound like this guy. That sounds like he just kind of, I don't know. I feel like I've like gotten sucked into the social media of it. Everybody's saying that everyone's like a narcissist, how to get over your narcissistic ex or like all these headlines. And like, I'm sitting here watching all of them being like, oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. Like,

myself, whereas like I, I never totally thought that when we were seeing each other, like I didn't think that he was capable of actually being that. I mean, other than, yeah, listen, he fucked you over. He two-timed you. It's not great. It was shitty. It was shitty. What he did. Good.

going forward he's blocked you when he's met someone else that he actually wanted to date he stopped things with you like yeah when he wasn't dating those people he went back to you because you you know but short of like the early parts he's kind of been like seemingly pretty up front and like son and actually setting better boundaries and and kind of like not doing the thing he did in the past that was so fucked up you

You know, and you're the one who's like allowed him into your life and, and, and allowed, you know, and made it very convenient for him to like hook up with, you know, like you wanted to have sex and you, you reached out to him and he was like, all right, she wants to hang out with me. Sure. All right. She's cool.

You know, but like, yeah, never thought about it like that, that he was he was actually by like blocking me. And and when he was talking to someone like that is him doing better. And I was kind of the one that your ability. Yes. Your ability to like basically cannibalize your entire life over this guy, like speaks more to your narcissism than his.

And I've been you before, so no judgment. But like, I think that's something you need to recognize because like nothing about what we've talked about, like justifies your emotional investment in this guy, other than the fact that you've decided to become obsessed and

and make it about your ego and feeling validated and feeling special. And you've chosen all those things and chose winning over like just being a happier person and looking around and thinking about what you have in your life and like getting out of your own bullshit and thinking, you know what? Generally I have friends, I have family. You got some shit going for you and you've just ignored all that just to feel sorry for yourself about some fucking fuck boy. Yeah. My mom gets pretty mad at me because she's like, you have,

a dream life. Like genuinely, you have so many things that people dream of having. Yeah. And you're here feeling sorry for yourself about someone else. Like she's, your mom's right. You kind of need to get over yourself. Yeah. She stopped listening a long time ago. Let's just, let's just say that. She's doing you a favor. Yeah.

So listen, there's things that maybe you're not happy with yourself. We all have those things, but you've become way too obsessed with what you don't have and rather what you do have. You've made yourself a victim in your own story. You've made him the bad guy and the hero at the same time. And you need to stop. You just need to stop. And you can do it. And you can stop. It's a choice.

I can do hard things. So that's what my therapist says. You can. Hopefully this was helpful. It really was. I really appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Well, listen, I've been you and like you really, it's like one day you're going to look back and both laugh and be mad at yourself. You're going to laugh by how ridiculous you were for two years and be mad at yourself how much time you wasted and the friendships and

And the valuable relationships you do have that you may be damaged and ruined all over this fucking guy and your obsession with winning. Yeah. That's very true. All right. Good luck. Keep us posted. Thank you so much. All right. Bye-bye. If slots are spinning, you could be winning. Head over to DraftKings Casino and play the classics you know and love.

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Hi, I'm Chris Gethard, and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. You talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings.

Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh. Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous. How's it going? Going good, Nick. How are you? I'm good. What's your name? So my name is Lindsay and I'm 28. How can I help Lindsay? Is my felon Jim Crush a stalker? Felon, right? Felon. Not fellow?

Correct. Okay. All right. So you have a crush on him, but you're worried about him stalking you. So a lot's happened. Basically, one random night, we were at the gym and something came over me and I'm like, I'm just going to go tell him that I think he's cute, whatever. So I went and did that and completely caught him off guard.

And, you know, I just kind of walked away. But then the next day he came up to me, he's like, all right, let me get the dumbbell out of my ass. And, you know, he's like, I want to work out together, all this stuff. So I was like,

All right, cool. We had it set up for Monday that we were going to, um, work out together. So that time came, it was a three hour workout. It was insane. Wow. I mean, did you know at this point that he was, uh, formerly incarcerated? I did not. Okay. Yep. Cause it like he had nothing but time pumping iron. So, um, also like what made you think that like the guy you thought was cute would be like a good workout buddy?

I don't know. I just thought... Have you ever worked out with a random dude before? No. Okay, well... Lesson learned. I know. Anyways, but... Oh, lesson learned.

I mean, I'm just laughing at like, yeah, like I'm not shocked it was a three hour workout session or shocked that it was just like different than yours. I think it's comical that like instead of him, like I think most guys in his position would be like, yeah, let's work out together. And then let's like kind of do what you want to do as opposed to like putting you through a gauntlet. But anyways, he put you through a gauntlet. And then what happened? Throughout the whole workout, too. Mind you, I just met this man like two days ago.

before he was like kissing the side of my face in between workouts and very like touchy and i was already like okay you know and then he like kissed me like at my car when we were done on the lips yeah just like went for it and i'm like okay you know kind of like assault no i wouldn't say that okay

Well, you didn't love it. No, I didn't love it. And you didn't ask for it. But, you know, anyways, he's toeing the lines. So, all right. So like he kisses you. That's over. Then what? So when I go home and I got his last name, so quick little Google search. And there's his rap sheet. He had just got out of prison in October of 2023. So he's still on parole.

For what? Yeah, he didn't want to tell me any of that, you know, but I did end up confronting him and like ask him about it. What'd he do? So he was in prison for six years for home invasion and domestic violence against a pregnant lady. That's what like the charges said.

So obviously it does not sound great. He did explain the story to me and I guess I was kind of like, okay, like I can understand, but basically he was dating someone and I mean, I don't mean to cut you off, but I don't care about his story. I hope you don't either. I think what I care about is that like, you know, forget about his story. Right. Even if he was charged for like

tax evasion or something like a white collar crime or something right like the point is you met this guy you went up to him forget about the long workout session right that's just kind of weird that's just like bro but in that workout session he was like

Without your consent, and I'm not, you know, I'm not, but like touching you, making you feel uncomfortable, then kissing you, making you feel uncomfortable. And like, sure, you didn't want to at that point to like scream assault. You know, I get it. But like, that wasn't okay that he did that, right? He made you feel uncomfortable. And that was a huge red flag. Huge, right?

A huge fucking red flag. Then you go to Google and you find out this man was in prison. And like, fine, maybe there wasn't a time between now and then for him to be like, hey, by the way, let's work out together. But just so you know, I do have a rap sheet. But listen, if he was a guy who really wanted to go out of his way to get...

get ahead of it. But at this point, when you find out that like he was arrested for burglary and home invasion, like, okay, forgetting about the domestic violence that he was allegedly accused of and forgetting about the fact that this was a pregnant person, the combination of his behavior towards you, he's been incarcerated for whatever,

Like, end of conversation. Just move on. Like, at that point, it's like, oh, shit, let's change gyms. Like, this guy, that's a huge red flag, the whole, like, car scene that you described. I do expect him to have his version of accounts that, like, paint him in a better light. And even if his version of that story has some truth to it, the fact that, like, it involved a pregnant woman, short of a pregnant woman having a baseball bat, a gun, or a knife,

and threatening to use it on me. I would just remove myself from a situation if for some reason I had to defend myself, I would just leave. But anyway, he chose not to. I don't know what his story is. You know, I don't even think we need to hear it. It's a bunch of things that make you go, you know, I guess maybe, right? But like, what's his version of why he did what he did outside of the car? You know what I'm saying? Like, keep in mind, it's,

if he has a very different version of that story that you just told me about outside of the car where he was touching you at the gym and then made you feel really uncomfortable when he kissed you. Now, Matt, you know what I'm saying? Yep. So where do we get to the concerns about him being a stalker? So anyways, worked out with him a couple times throughout the week, still trying to figure out

I should have cut it off, but I didn't. And then it got to Friday and I was like, I'm just so uncomfortable with everything. So I friend zoned him. I was like, we can be gym buddies. We can say hi, whatever. And he was like, cool with that. But then his obsessive like texting, like kept going. And like, I'm talking like long paragraphs. He would like update me when he was done.

you know, I just got home. Hopefully you did too. Or telling me what he's eating or he's like, I'm breaking out on my chest and I did arms today. Like unsolicited, just like kept going. Sure. Yeah. So now where are we at? Like, where are we at today? So I eventually kind of stopped applying, but he continues every couple of days to like reach out and I should just block him, you know, be done, move gyms. But I did recently start seeing this other guy who,

from Facebook dating and three days in, he asked me to be his girlfriend. He's just out of a divorce and

And I'm like, I don't know. I just need help navigating all of this. I don't think you need as much help as you think you need. Okay. And I say that because one, like, listen, like it's a messy world out there dating. Like, you know, you got ex-convicts, you got divorced men. Like, I get it. Like, there's nothing you can do about that is my point. Like if, you know, the apps, the bars, the libraries, Facebook, whatever, it's full of bad options. You know, it just is. That's,

It's a sea of people looking for their person, most of which are not your person, right? So, and I actually love to use a gym analogy when I refer to dating, which is like, I don't know, maybe you're more of a gym rat than the average person. And you like, you know, I like working out too, to a certain point. There's parts of working out that aren't fun. The fatigue, the tiredness, even when you're pushing through for one more rep, it hurts. You know, it's uncomfortable. It's a means to an end.

You're there working out to look good, feel good, do, you know, but like most people are not like, I get to go to the gym today. Yeah. You know, it's like, I, you know, it's more, the excitement is more finishing whatever session you have. Right. But we do it because it's hopefully going to get us somewhere. And that's what dating is. And then as far as needing the help, it's like, you're just have to trust your gut and you have the instincts. You're not following through with this, right? You know that a guy fresh off of a divorce after a couple of days asking you to be his girlfriend is a red flag.

It's not normal. Now, it doesn't mean he's a creep. It doesn't mean, you know, there could be a lot of like justifiable reasons why this is a man who's maybe not thinking as clearly as he would if he wasn't freshly coming out of a divorce. You know, he might just be a little anxious, but certainly not ready to give you the type of things that you're looking for in a relationship. Right. So how do you handle like how would you like how do you think you should handle this new guy?

Who's saying he wants to be your girlfriend? I mean, I did backtrack. At first he caught me off guard and I was like, okay. And then I was like, I absolutely can't do this. I wanted to start avoiding him. But I was like, I'm still trying to figure out if I even like you. So I did like say like, we need to just like date and whatever. But I'm also like, it's just a lot. He's becoming very...

He wants to hang out every day. He wants, you know, to come over and do things for me. So you communicated a boundary, which is I need to slow things down and get to know you. And his response to you communicating that boundary was to kind of ignore the boundary and keep persistently hanging out?

Yes. All right. So when men do that very early on, you need to shut it down. When you don't know people at all, and the first thing they do is either ignore a boundary or just show that they don't care about boundaries, period, like kissing you out of nowhere, that is...

Early termination. When they fly those red flags very high, just listen, look, look, just that red flag. Okay. Like you, you didn't panic with the guy who wanted to be your girlfriend. You said, I don't know. I just, that's a little, it feels a little strong. Like you're just getting out of a divorce. I like what I know so far, but I barely know you at all. And,

And an appropriate response from someone like him would be like, you know, fuck, I'm sorry. You're right. I am probably not my best self. I am like, you know, I'm still going through this divorce, but I do like you. And I hope that my asking you to be my girlfriend is just more about like, I just, I haven't met someone as cool as you in a while. But like, yeah, let's definitely take it slow. And I apologize. I see what you're saying. But he didn't do that. He just ignored you.

And so if a person early on is going to ignore you that way, then you get your... That's your answer. Add it to the list of frustrating dates you've had. I get it. Dating is a lot easier when you're able to actually listen to people when they show you and tell you who they are and not give them reasons to do it over and over again and not trust your gut. You're making a difficult situation that much more difficult by giving people who don't deserve your time and energy your time and energy, especially after showing you why they don't deserve that time and energy. So...

I think you're really close. Your instincts are there. You're not listening to your instincts. So I don't think you need necessarily help with dating. I think you just need help with trusting your gut and following your instincts and believing in yourself and not allowing the disappointment of dating and the frustration of meeting bad option after bad option an excuse to try to make these bad options good options for no justifiable reasons. That's true.

That's definitely what I do. It's like a bad toxic thing that I'm trying to break. That's like, I'm getting older, you know, lots of friends are married, the whole story. Sure. But then it's like, as soon as I started dating someone, I'm like, okay, I have to make this work. And it's like, no, I don't. And obviously listening to your podcast every week, I've learned a lot of things and like backtracked and boundaries, but still a work in progress. Yeah. Well, we all are. How old are you again? 28. You're only 28. You're not that. Yeah.

And I'm glad that you're doing that. Like you're realizing this now. Yeah. Like you're, you're still really young. Fine. You, you thought you'd be married by now or whatever. A lot of your friends are, who cares? Some of them will be divorced. You have time. And in the 28th, not the time to panic and start like investing in a bad options. And that's what you're doing right now. And if I were you to help you with that is stop telling yourself, all my friends are married. Stop comparing yourself to your friends. Just stop.

I am at where I'm at. And instead of being sad about where you're at, because 21 year old, you didn't want that for herself. Right. You know, start appreciating what you've been able to do as an independent woman. Take advantage of your freedoms. It won't doesn't last forever. Now, I got really mad at me when I was like seven forty five. I'm like, you know, like, get up. We got shit to do.

Right. 21 year old Natalie then had less shit to do. You know, all the things that you want for yourself, I hope you get it. And all those things come with a lot of like responsibility and, and, and shit. And you are an independent, free person and take advantage. I did. And there's a lot,

you know, the benefit of settling down later in life, and I'm not saying you have to wait as long as I did, but like you have the opportunity to get things out of your system, so to speak, to do things that a lot of your friends who, you know, maybe they were lucky enough to meet their person early in life. There's been moments where, you know, I went to a bachelor party once a couple of years back and it was me and a bunch of like married dudes. And like the enthusiasm, these guys,

had to get away from their wives and play golf with each other and act like a bunch of like college idiots was like, it's kind of hysterical. But I was also thankful I wasn't them. You know, they all got married at 24. The grass is definitely always greener, but you are putting yourself at risk by putting these like men who clearly show red flags and giving them, you know, allowing them to make excuses for what is clearly not okay behavior. Because I do think there's a lot of good guys out there. I hope so.

Yeah, there are, you know, but there's a difference between like the guy who needs a talking to and needs to be reminded to listen to a boundary and the fell in with a rap sheet of domestic violence who like hit your first moment with him. He clearly crosses a boundary and makes you feel uncomfortable with his physical actions. Right. The other guy, you know, he's probably just an emotional mess and just not ready to date.

Right. Keep taking those at bats, you know? So trust your instinct. Your, your, your gut is, is right. You got to remind yourself. My gut is right. My gut is right. Listen to my gut. Follow my instincts. Trust myself. I know what I'm doing. You should repeat that to yourself because you do. Your problem is you're not doing that. You're not, you're not trusting your gut. You have a gut, you have an instinct, you have a feeling. And then instead of trusting your gut, you're trying to figure out ways to like actually contradict yourself. Right. Definitely. Yeah.

And that makes you less confident in yourself. And the less confident you are, the less attractive you are to the people you actually want to meet. It kind of all goes together. The more you're just like a baddie who doesn't need a man who's very self-sufficient and confident in what she's doing, you'll have a better chance of attracting the type of person you're looking for. Right now, your energy is giving off a felon.

okay i'm giving you a little bit of a hard time but there is something to be said of that you know and the really the work comes when you're like alone in your car and you're with your thoughts and like to challenge yourself you know hold you need to hold yourself to a higher standard i think sometimes we get in the whole like woe is me and poor me and oh my god there's so many shitty men out there we turn into a victim

And yeah, like this guy victimized you for sure. I think, you know, but like your reaction to that moment was to keep hanging out with them and keep talking to them and give them the benefit of the doubt. And then you lost that power and control by not listening to yourself. That's true. You know.

Instead of being like, wow, people ask me why I'm good at reading people. It's because I trust my instincts and I have conviction. And I look at people's actual actions, you know, and I don't make excuses for people. You know, I listen to actually what they're saying. I'm not listening to their story about themselves or what they're trying to convince themselves of. I think when people call in lots of times, what I'm hearing from people is telling, I listen to people tell me their version of the story they want me to hear. And I'm like,

And I'm listening for the truth. You get better at that with yourself. I got good at that. I have to, I just start calling my own bullshit before I could call it others. That's what I'll start doing. Yeah. You got it. I mean, you're there, like you're there. You, you have the instincts. You're so close. You know, you just have to trust yourself. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks so much. Good luck. All right. Block them for sure. Change, change gems, change gems. Just move on. You know, it's not that great. Is it? No. Okay. All right. All right. Be safe. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.