Dave
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Josh, thanks for letting me lure you into the studio. I'm excited. Thanks for having me. I was thinking about how it's your birthday coming up. Oh, no. And for once, we're not going to get to spend it together. That's true. We generally do. Yeah, but you're going to be in London. I will indeed. Well, I was thinking about one of my favorite stories that you've told, which is the season six premiere of The West Wing. Sure. When you all went to Camp David.

in the show. And you had Marine One. And on the side of it, they made a typo. Untied. States of America. Untied States of America. And so I thought...

in honor of your birthday. I made this last night. Oh, oh, God, you're good. Oh, it's so good. I love it. Will you describe it? Yeah. Is it going to be a piece of new merch? It's a new t-shirt. It's not available only to me. I won't have the only one. All right, I'm going to measure my excitement. Well, I'm seeing the front and the back. Yeah, the front is our pin, which actually looks amazing on a shirt. This is very exciting. Of course, what's next? Flentil A Veritas. It looks fantastic. It's

And on the back, "Untied States of America." Brilliant! We're gonna offer it in a couple of different colorways. One, just a stark black and white, the way it appears on Marine One, black with white type. But then, I also thought... Oh, my God, that's such a good idea. ...in honor of another moment from this episode that I love, which is when you are running through the woods...

and you rolled up your sleeves against Alex Graves' wishes to show your massive guns on screen in that Carnegie Mellon sort of like athletic shirt. We're also going to do a tri-blend black, sort of like the shirt you're wearing in that episode, so that people who get the shirt can roll up their sleeves and show off their biceps. Yes, maybe we can all show up at Alex Graves' house. So this is going to be a new piece of merch that's going to come out, and we're going to have all of our stuff

for sale at thewestwingweekly.com slash merch. But check out the new Untied States of America t-shirt

in two different ways. And then there's going to be a premium version because you know how whenever the president is on Marine One, he's got the cool windbreaker? Oh yeah, exactly. We're also going to do this as a windbreaker. Are we really? We can do that? We're going to do a black windbreaker. Same thing, the Westman Weekly Seal on the front, Untied States of America on the back. Can't wait to get one. And

And I could just see people all across the country putting it on as Martin Sheen would put it on over his head. Amazing. Oh my God, this is fantastic. And so many people are going to be approached and asked, you know, there's a typo on the back of your shirt. Oh, exactly. It'll just be endless. And that's how you know they are the enemy. They're not in the club. Anybody who points at it, maybe enemy is strong. Yeah.

I want to give a shout out to Chuck Gibbons who sent me an image on Instagram that I think is relevant for anybody who gets this shirt. It's a tweet from Dropped Mike. It says, interviewer, quote, can I get your references? Me, probably not. No one else does. Oh, that's good. That's really good.

I'm also excited at the prospect of, for the next four years, wearing something that says "Untied States of America." I didn't want to get too dark, but this might be a good reflection of how people are feeling at the moment. And then, lastly, in my small contribution to the overall campaign, Josh Molina is Nice.

I'm going to donate proceeds of this piece of merch to the American Red Cross. Wow. That is awesome. Oh, what a gift. Oh, I'm excited. If you want to support the American Red Cross, who's been doing amazing work here in LA as the wildfires have been just... I'm giving on Monday before I fly to London. Ravaging stuff. And yeah, Josh, if people want to join the Josh Molina is nice...

blood donation team, do they give blood or platelets or both? It all counts if you give through the American Red Cross and you join our team through the app. Of course, I'm also just here to generally encourage giving blood, whether you do it through the Red Cross or not. But if you do through the Red Cross, please join our team. Yeah. And if you get the Untied States of America shirt, that's another way you'll be supporting the Red Cross. Yay. I'm going to wear it to platelet donation, not Monday. Yeah.

But as soon as it's available and I can donate again.

And if you have no idea what we're talking about, it might be time to visit or revisit our episode on Season 6, Episode 1, NSF Thurmont. Right. Very good. Not suitable for work, Thurmont. You'll see. That's a joke you made on that episode as well. Of course I did. What do you think? I got a new joke for this? There's a picture of the untied States of America that Josh took before the art department went and fixed it on Marine One.

One of the great photos of all time from the West Wing. By the way, I also, since you mentioned my guns, I occasionally I search my name on Reddit and Reddit is where you get the real honest people who really tell you what they think of you. And there's always something horrible. This comes to us from Cavewoman22. She says, Josh Molina has always had a face made for radio and a body made for late night cinemas. Yeah.

The sad part is I read that and I'm like, oh, it's just saying I'm ugly. But oh, net gain. I was like, for me, that's a rave for Reddit. Amazing. So go to thewestwingweekly.com slash merch to get your Untied States of America shirt or windbreaker. And now, on to the episode.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with AutoQuote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

You're listening to the West Wing Weekly. I'm Rishi K. Sherway. And I'm Joshua Molina. And today we're talking about the movie Dave, as picked by our Patreon supporters. Dave was written by Gary Ross. It was directed by Ivan Reitman, and it premiered on October 14th, 1993, 31 years ago. How did you get the idea?

Have you seen those fake opening credits for shows like Game of Thrones, where they set it as like a 90s sitcom? I don't know that I have, but I sure want to now. They're really funny. Basically, like Game of Thrones made to look like Full House or Family Matters or something. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

So I thought I would do a version of that from my synopsis here of Dave. Oh, great. Fantastic. Which is to say, take a movie of one genre and frame it slightly differently. Because I think on paper, Dave sounds like a different movie or can sound like a different movie than it was intended. I think I have a sense of maybe where you're going with this. I'm very excited. Okay.

Dave is the story of a bloodless coup d'etat as a handful of the sitting U.S. president's advisors and bodyguards overthrow his administration and defraud the American people. Like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong-un, President Bill Mitchell, played by Kevin Kline, uses lookalikes in his public appearances. While having an affair with a young assistant, Mitchell suffers a stroke and goes into a coma.

The most recent lookalike du jour, Dave, also played by Kevin Kline, becomes a pawn in the sinister power grab hatched by Chief of Staff Bob Alexander. However, in the same way a pawn can become promoted in chess if it crosses to the end of the board, Dave finds ways to co-opt his new role, bend power to his own will, and usurp the presidency for himself.

The First Lady becomes an unlikely ally, and the two of them set off to reshape American policy. But a scandal for Mitchell's past comes back and unravels their web of deceit, sending Dave back to the ordinary life he once led, but with a new characteristic, a thirst for power. In the final moments, we see his ambition live on, and he vows to begin his ascent once more. Fantastic. That is f***ing brilliant. And I think it speaks to a real difference between me and you, because I had a similar thought about

And I just wrote down in my notes, January 6th? And you're like, I'll just write an incredibly funny synopsis in the style of, yeah. It is wild to me how much, as I was writing this, I was like, oh, this is House of Cards. That's wild. That's really funny. It's very astute. I had been thinking so much about how different this movie is in tone from everything that we've watched.

I guess it's most closely similar to The American President. Yeah, I wrote down this takes place in the same universe as The American President. And I think in a way, when did The American President come out, did we decide? 95. We didn't decide. It wasn't really up to us. It seemed to me, I thought it was though chronologically before The American President, but it seemed almost derivative of The American President, which I guess technically it couldn't be. And it seemed to me like the kind of movie that would have been better...

written by Aaron. My memory of this movie was, this is one of those movies that everybody loves, and my memory was I didn't love it as much as everyone else did. But this time when I revisited it, I felt the same way. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Which is that it's a very actually clever, I think, and excellent premise, and there are lovely performances in it. But I wanted the script to be better. I think it's not as good as it ought to have been. There's, I mean, maybe I'm jumping in too quickly here. No, no, jump away. You know, very American president or the West Wing would have us...

writing for politicians can be bold and inspiring and soaring and beautiful. And there's a point when Dave is taken over and he's mentioning a speech that he loved. Kevin Kline is reminiscing about this great speech that Kevin Dunn's character wrote, and he shares some of it. And it's so hackneyed and terrible.

"Somewhere there is a distant light guiding us through this rocky shoal." - America, isn't what we say here tonight. - "It's in the faces and smiles of a Sunday afternoon." We'll drop this in. "It's in the gentle kindness of the family kitchen as we gather together when the sun goes down." That's such bad writing and so not inspiring. Like if you gave Aaron three minutes on the toilet to scribble something.

would be better than that. So I'm just like, how did they not go like, yes, that's a good placeholder, but we were supposed to be writing something that's good writing that would inspire people. First of all, I want to put in a vote for us to not use a clip. And if you're listening to this, we'll know which one of us was right. But I think, or which one of us won. And since I get to be in charge of the final pass on the edits, I'm going to suspect we didn't use a clip because I think it's even funnier having you read it.

Am I wrong? I will say you are...

It's not soaring oratory, I guess. Soratory. Soratory or sorkatory. Right. Did you know that Gary Ross, who wrote this, was in fact a speechwriter? Oh, sorry. No offense, Gary. I'm sure your actual speeches were great and your fake speeches are shitty. Well, take whatever conclusion you want. He wrote for Michael Dukakis, who of course lost. Ah, yes. But I mean...

Somewhere there's a distant light guiding us through this rocky shoal. I feel like in sixth grade, the teacher would be like, that's very cliched and terrible. Plenty of successful political speeches use cliches, though.

That is true all the time. People all the time used to say, four score and 20 years ago. I mean, it's just like, oh my God. Right. I've heard that a million times. Yeah. Just say 84 years, dude. No, but tell me, that's not good writing, right? Do you find that inspiring? It's in the gentle kindness of the family kitchen? What does that even mean? What does that even mean? I mean, I actually don't know what that means.

The gentle kindness of the family kitchen. You don't know what that means? My loving blender and my Cuisinart. I feel like you're willfully trying not to go there. Maybe. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Okay, let's back up. What do we like about the movie? Well, I liked this movie. Okay, good. I mean, I like it too. I like it. I think I weep for its unrealized potential. I just think it could and should have been so much better. And by the way, I just FaceTimed with my folks because I'm in London and they're in Los Angeles and we caught up and I told them we would be watching this film and they were like, we would love that movie.

And I was like, well, I don't. My sister Toby has been running a pandemic weekly movie night, and everybody watches simultaneously. We're all on Zoom, and we don't really chat during it, but it was sort of kind of watched together with some friends of hers and some family members. And she's done like 190 movies or something. It's incredible. Every week. And they watched Dave, and that was a... People really like it. So I'm aware that this is a movie that...

people really enjoy and is beloved. And I don't want to try to convince anyone to enjoy it less. Tell your parents that you didn't like this movie and also you have no memories of the gentle kindness of their kitchen. Yeah, maybe it's because I was treated so shabbily in my family kitchen. Maybe there's a greater trauma that I'm responding to. Yeah, let them know that line did not resonate if they had substituted it with the harsh, cold light of the heartless family.

Yes, that lights up these Rocky Scholls. Rocky Scholls is my boxing name. Yeah, Rocky Scholls, famously trained by Beans Morocco. That's right. Also, I was disappointed that Beans Morocco wasn't in the movie. I think that's also a big part of my disappointment with the film, ultimately. Let me ask you, how do you feel about 90s rom-coms in general?

First, you have to name a couple others, because I'm an old man. 90s was a long time ago. I don't think I have a problem with it. I don't know that it's my favorite era or genre or era of that genre. Genera, if you will. Which is a portmanteau of jeans and Panera Bread. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Well, I don't know. Is this a favorite of yours? No. 90s rom-coms? No. I mean, I'd love When Harry Met Sally, but I think it's a little jarring for me to have watched this movie after living in the world of The Candidate and...

All the movies that we've been watching post the American president, so many of them have been these sort of gritty films and like Network and Dr. Strangelove, these legendary filmmakers. Sure. Even A Face in the Crowd. I think you're right. We may have poisoned our own well, I think is what you're saying. There's a version of the political film fest that's much more lighthearted.

I was trying to imagine, does a movie like this even exist in the 1970s? Because this, to me, as I was watching, I was like, this is a product of its time. Gary Ross also wrote Big, a movie that I love. I do too. And there's a certain...

80s comedy that is its own thing. This movie was directed by Ivan Reitman, who of course did Ghostbusters, another movie that I love. Important to my childhood. But this kind of romantic comedy, I was like, does this movie even exist in the 70s? And I couldn't actually come up with one. I was looking at rom-coms in the 70s. The Godfather. Which is a portmanteau of God and Father. Yeah.

You know what? I never put that together, but it clearly is. Yeah. Very good. Very astute. The great rom-com of the 70s for me is like Harold and Maude. Yeah. I think maybe I wanted a more trenchant humor. Portmanteau. Trenchant humor. Trenchant.

Get us back on track. For the love of God, get us back on track. So I felt like I had to do some adjustment as I was watching to recenter myself in the time of this film. And it reminded me more of something like, I don't know, Home Alone or something like that, where you're just like, this is just a nice, fun,

light movie. Yes. And I actually think I prefer it to The American President, which you might remember when we were talking about it, I sort of criticized for being a fairy tale. Right. Because I think that it was built around the idea that it was something more than that. This one, I think, is supposed to be a fairy tale and feels like one. And so I feel like they accomplished what they set out to do. And I give them props for that.

Yeah, I think you're right that American president takes a bigger swing for the fences and that doesn't help it. I think this is just trying to be a little delectable treat and I should have probably received it as such. I don't know. I wanted it to be funnier. I wanted to laugh out loud. And then there were occasionally moments where that had a little more bite. Like at one point I wrote down, this is a fairy tale. Why are there so many cameos of real people? Like it's almost jarring to me.

They have all these cameos in what is such a fable. But then they had Oliver Stone and I was like, that's hilarious. If you look at a photograph of Bill Mitchell taken before the stroke and one right after, you will see distinct differences. Are you saying this is a conspiracy? Yes, I am saying this is a conspiracy.

I was like, that's really clever. It's really good. I wanted a little bit more of that. I was like, oh my God, that's actually really, really good. Yeah. I watched an interview with Ivan Reitman and he said that the use of all these people from the real world...

First of all, it wasn't something that he thought that they could actually get. He didn't know that these people would sign on. But he approached a few of them and they all said yes. And then that kind of opened the door for them to ask even more real world figures to be in the film. And he said that was a necessary component for the kind of broad comedy of the rest of it. That if you have this realistic setting, it gives you permission to do more ridiculous things within it.

And that was also the thinking behind the set design because people really marveled at the

realistic quality of the White House set, I think we're so used to it, especially post-West Wing. We're like, oh yeah, here's another Oval Office. I thought it was kind of bad. There was a scene that's supposed to be outside. I'm like, boy, is that not outside. It's a big photograph of outside behind you. It looks like a photograph. Yeah. Well, they weren't allowed to use the White House, obviously, and they weren't even actually allowed to come inside to take photos and

do research for the film. But watching an interview with Kevin Kline, I saw he said things that we've heard from folks on the West Wing, you know, which is to step into a set like that really helps, I guess, literally set the stage for what you're going to perform.

Anyway, all the cameos, I think we're supposed to also give that kind of fabric of this is really happening in the real world. But maybe it had the opposite effect for you. Maybe by having these real world things, it made it even more jarring because the plot was so unrealistic. Sort of. It added slightly to me, yes. All I can think about now when I see real world journalists in a movie is you saying, you shouldn't be doing this. Yeah.

I do feel that way. Yeah. And there were lots of opportunities to feel that way here. So many. Helen Thomas has a speaking role. I know. Maybe she was just there. I mean, the actual press room. I was thinking, does she know she's in a movie? She gets up and she says, thank you, Mr. President. I thought that was really, that felt a little low, actually, to make Helen Thomas not only taken in by the imposter, but also...

swoon for the message so much that she breaks from the usual decorum of a White House correspondent to personally thank the president for his message. I don't know. By the way, in keeping with your faux synopsis, as if it were a thriller, it was a horrible thing to do to the wife, just according to Weaver's character. They're actually, you know, until she's let in on it, like, you know, she doesn't know her husband's in a coma. Yeah.

I was like, this is awful what they're doing. I did have moments where I was like, I know it's a fable and I know it's a fairy tale and it's not meant to be scrutinized at this level. But I had moments, and maybe again because of the types of movies we've been watching, where I was like, it's really bad what they're doing. Very, very bad. Even what Dave is doing. He knows what he's doing. I really think you change the lighting and you change the music and you've got a very different movie here and nothing else has to change.

Let's talk about the rest of the cast, though. Let's. I thought Frank Langella as Bob Alexander was great and terrifying. Yes, and he's one of those people where, like, just in his countenance, you sort of start to get, like, ooh, he's imposing looking, and they had the short haircut, and yeah, he's great. He just carries, he has a presence. Yeah. An intimidating presence. I felt like he was foreshadowing his role as...

Richard Nixon. Like watching this, I was like, how could you not have him play Richard Nixon in something, which he would eventually do in Frost Nixon. And he also had an echo of H.R. Haldeman, I thought, to him too, the way that he carried himself. Yeah. I think he also gave you a sense of the forthcoming canceled Frank Langella, who's been accused of inappropriate behavior on set. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Is that right? I got hints of that. Yeah. Oh, yes. I was so surprised to see baby Ving Rhames in this. Yes. He looks so young. So young. And then I found out that his role in Pulp Fiction is only a year away. Oh, is that true? That's amazing. Wow, that's wild. Yeah, I think he just looks so different with the hair. I don't know, he looked so much younger to me. And maybe just because I haven't seen Pulp Fiction in a while.

And so now I see him mostly in the Mission Impossible movies, which, of course, he looks his age. But it was wild to see baby Ving Rhames, baby Laura Linney. Baby Bonnie Hunt. Baby Anna Deavere Smith. Yes. And when I saw that Anna Deavere Smith was in it, which I had forgotten, I also felt like, and maybe this is why I didn't like it so much, like, how am I not in this movie? Yeah.

It basically feels like the American president. Anna Deavere Smith is there. It's political. It's a fairy tale. How do I not have a bit part in it? Do you know who Bonnie Hunt is? And did you recognize baby Bonnie Hunt? I saw Bonnie Hunt's name in the credits and I was like, where is she going to show up? And then, yeah, she plays the White House tour guide. You know, just a brief appearance. She makes a memorable impression in just a little bit of screen time. We're walking, we're walking.

Walking, more than a million visitors go through the White House every year, making it the most frequently toured home in the country. We're walking, we're walking, and we're stopping. And I remember actually, like everybody was saying that back then. Like that was a big takeaway. And I feel like I still occasionally say it if I'm trying to get my family like, and we're walking. But didn't she have her own show? I feel like she was a hot, hot thing for a while. The Bonnie Hunt Show. She must have been in that. I mean, just based on the name.

When I think of Bonnie Hunt, I think of her playing Renee Zellweger's sister in Jerry Maguire. And what year was that relative to this? A few years later, 96. Oh, gotcha. So she and Ving hit it big quickly after this. Yeah. Someone who I love and who just, I thought, killed it in every single scene that he was in in this movie was Charles Grodin. Yeah, Charles Grodin is brilliant. I love Bratwurst.

That line made me laugh. I wanted more Grodin. By the way, are we meant to notice and wonder why the character has such a bad toupee?

Or are we left to ponder why Charles Grodin has such a bad piece? I don't have great toupee-dar, I guess. Maybe as a balding man myself, maybe mine is more finely tuned than yours. The young pup that you are with the fine mane of raven hair. But yeah, I was just like, wow, whoa, hella. I like that in your description of me, I'm like a mythological creature that's made up of three different animals.

pup with the mane of raven. You are a portmanteau of raven, griffin, which is already, I think, two other somethings, and lion. Yeah. Mane. Which is part of a griffin. Oh, so griffin was in there already. So you're, I like that. You're a mixture of a griffin and a lion. It's the worst mix ever. Two lions and a third thing.

Charles Grodin is in one of my favorite movies of all time, Midnight Run. Oh, great movie. I kind of think that he's playing the same character in this. Yes. Yeah. Because he's an accountant in Midnight Run. And I mean, he comes in and does some accounting work for the White House here. Yeah. Murray. He's Murray the accountant. Yeah. What I would have loved to have seen in this movie, a scene that never plays out on screen, which is the moment when David...

Dave calls Charles Grodin to come to the White House. How does he let him know? How does he say, "Here's the deal.

I am an imposter currently acting as the real president. I've got a plan, which is, I think the two of us can redo the budget. So can you just come over? I mean, maybe that's why they left it out, because even for a fantasy like this, it was too over the top of a scene to even imagine. No, but I think that's a great idea. To me, that's one of the missed opportunities of the setup. Like, the setup is brilliant.

And I think some of the missed opportunities are specific things like that would have been a very funny scene. More of the fish out of water, like, what am I doing here? We see him sit in the chair and fall over, you know, behind the Resolute desk or whatever in the Oval Office. But we don't see as much as we might. And also, and I think Kevin Kline is delightful in two roles and brilliant and I love him. I don't know that there's any movie I've ever seen him in where I didn't think, like, he's just so great. He's so great. Very charismatic and very winning.

But Dave himself is a little bit of a cipher. And I think it would have been more interesting. He's obviously a decent guy. And it's like, what if a decent guy who cares about people became the president? But I think a little more backstory or a little bit more about what he's like

would have gone a long way to making the movie more interesting to me. They try and do this thing that we've seen before where they don't specify what political party the president is. Yeah, that's a very 90s political film thing to do and it would not go down now. And previous to it, the 70s version would also be more specifically political and explicitly. But once you get specific, you start to lose the general audience. Yeah.

But as a result, a lot of the policy and things that they're talking about, you're like, and where is this coming from? And whose feelings? I mean, one thing that is nice about that is that it accurately shows that there's a level of corruption and cravenness that extends beyond.

everywhere. That's not limited to one political party. I think that's another more interesting version. A super lefty, left-wing liberal Democrat happens to look a lot like a right-wingy

Evil Republican. I mean obviously that's a simplistic or whatever, but that would have been kind of more interesting like oh That's a funny setup like what's he gonna do as that guy and like I get why he's willing to make some living off Just their difference of their opinion, but now he's got to actually be the guy Part of the reason I mentioned that is because I think that they may be unwittingly support what I would say is like a kind of Republican view of the federal budget

Like there's a quality in that part of the plot, especially when things seem to be going so well, but then Bob Alexander goes and behind everybody's back, forges the president's signature and says,

vetoes this works bill that contains funding for homeless shelters, he suddenly has to find $650 million. Because Bob Alexander says, "Oh, if you can find that, then you can have it." He takes them literally and starts to go to work on it. And I think that this idea that like, "Oh, if only the federal budget were treated more like a sensible business."

then, you know, we wouldn't have any economic problems. I think that to say that misses nuance, I mean, not to say that federal spending is efficient or anything like that, not at all. But in that scene, just the whole idea of that, like these two guys, we can figure this out. We're going to work it out, go through all this stuff. And Charles Gorton's like, I mean, if I ran my business this way, I'd be out of business.

To me, it sounds like a Trump talking point. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I'm a CEO. I'm a successful CEO. I know how to run these businesses. Of course, he's actually a convicted felon who's defrauded many, many, many people and refused to pay subcontractors, all that. But you know what I'm saying? In theory, the idea that like, oh, if you only ran the American government the way that successful businesses were run, things would be better. Feels like

GOP talking point, yeah. It reminded me a little bit of people who see a Jackson Pollock painting and they say, my five-year-old could do that. Right. I also thought it got a little edgier, like when Sigourney Weaver as Ellen Mitchell walks into, she's unhappy with her husband, although it's in fact Dave in the shower, and she sort of glances down and we sense that there's a difference perhaps in genitalia size between the two men. I thought that was like a clever little...

And fairly subtle moment that I thought was funny. Yeah. They sort of do a callback to it in the car later when they're driving around. Yeah. Which I don't think they needed to do. Yeah. I think that was sort of gilding the lily for no extra value. Oh,

Oh, this is another thing in terms of that thought was a lack of subtlety that's in the very, very beginning of the movie. Like, as he's-- they do a good job, I think, largely wordlessly telling us that this is a bad marriage and that this is a guy who's handed his dogs for a photo op, and as soon as he walks in the door of the White House, he hands off his dogs. Yeah, I like things like that. I love the storytelling through the stuff. But they also, they just so explicitly told us that he and the Laura Linney, I guess, intern character are having an affair.

Which I thought was like, why be so ham-handed? There's even a cut to when Dave is being requested to fill in for the first time for the president, for real. Guess something pretty important must be going on for the president to go through all this.

and then it cuts to their having sex and it's like i knew that's what they were going to cut to because they told us in the first walk-in and the credits that these two were having to fair it's like sort of stealing their own thunder like i don't i didn't understand that storytelling wise yeah that's a really good point now we're going to take a quick break and now back to the show this movie actually could have been a really different production did you know that the script for dave

was brought to Ivan Reitman by Warren Beatty. Oh, wow. No, I sure did not know that. Yeah. And I guess the problem was Warner Brothers didn't want Warren Beatty to star in the role. Hmm. So they were like into the project, but not with him. Yeah. But then they did cast him, but then he didn't like the deal. And so he ended up walking away and then they ended up casting Kevin Kline. I think it would have been a very different movie with Warren attached. Yeah. Warren involved.

But Kevin Kline is so great in this. I think he's... He has such a great light touch. Yeah, so charming. And I was saying they didn't pencil in enough about Dave, but he's so winning. Like, the fact that Kevin Kline is playing him makes you root for him and you love him. And when he's just even joking around, like, with the autoworkers and doing those mechanical arms, like, you love the guy. Yeah. Actually, one of my favorite moments in this is a rare moment when you do get a sense of Dave when...

Ellen asks him... I mean, I assume you're married. I was. Once. Didn't take it. Yeah. I love the line. I love the way he delivers it. He's smiling when he says it. You know, like there's a wistfulness to it. Wistful. Exactly what I was about to say, yeah. I would have spent more time with Dave in Dave's world and been happy to do it. Yeah. Isn't also there's some weird, a little...

Suggestion that there's something more between Faith Prince, who works in his office. That's his ex-wife. Oh, okay. I didn't realize that. Yeah, so they're business partners. Yeah, I don't feel like they made it totally, totally clear. That went over my head. But they used to be married, but they still work together. And now she has just gotten engaged to someone new. And so that's why when she gets the news that he's in love... He's in love.

- Thank God. - Okay, somehow I completely missed that and I thought what they were telling us is that there's something between these two currently, yeah, right over my head. That's another quite small cameo for a, although maybe it was early in her career, but she would become. - What do you know Faith Prince from? - Well, I know her as a Broadway star and I think Tony winner, I wanna say, for "Guys and Dolls" on Broadway opposite Nathan Lane. She was nominated Best Featured Actress in a Musical, Jerome Robbins Broadway. I was there on opening night.

She was in that with Jason Alexander. She won for Guys and Dolls, but a big Broadway star and singer and musical comedian. I don't think I had seen her in anything else. Well, you hate musicals. They remind me of the cold, harsh light of the kitchen.

This fairy tale, fairy stale, fairy stale. That is what I think of this movie, actually. It's creeping in. This fairy tale you like, musicals you don't like. They're just fairy tales. One thing I like in this movie, I have to say, is... The lack of songs. First question I ever ask about a movie, are there songs? Is someone going to be singing? Oh, wait, but they do have songs in this, and actually I love the song.

And it's from a stage musical. Oh, gosh, I wasn't even thinking about that song. I was thinking about the moment when he is singing Hail to the Chief in the shower. ♪ Hail to the Chief, he's the one we all say hail to ♪ ♪ We all say hail because he keeps himself so clean ♪ ♪ He's got the power, that's why he's in the shower ♪

So silly. That's funny. And he's actually, I mean, Kevin Kline in his own right, a musical comedy god and star. And we get snatches of it. He's riding his bike into his house early in the movie and singing Oklahoma very engagingly and entertainingly.

You're right. There's actually a lot of singing in this movie. Yeah. And then later in the film, when they're driving around, they get stopped by the cops, and the cops think that they are the president and first lady, and he wants to make clear that they're both impersonators. They sing Tomorrow from Annie. And...

Scorny Weaver does okay and fine for a person who's not supposed to. But Kevin Kline like harmonizes with her and it's like you get a little sense of his like, this guy can sing. It's amazing, yeah. It's really good. Tomorrow, I love you. Tomorrow, it's only a day away. Tomorrow, tomorrow, we love you. Only a day.

He switches which harmony he's singing when based on what she's doing. It's fantastic. It's so good. It's really good. And then actually, I like that. I think one of the cops is like, she needs a little work. Yes. Yeah. Pretty good. This was a scene that they added later in the movie. They had actually been filming already. And...

Ivan Reitman felt like there wasn't enough evidence for the chemistry between Ellen and Dave, and they needed something more. And so he talked to Gary Ross and said, we need another scene. And so they added this scene later. And I thought it was a great move. Good call. Because I actually do buy the chemistry between the two of them. I think you might remember one of my criticisms of the American president was that I never felt the moment where anything real kind of

developed between Michael Douglas' character and Annette Bening in that movie. But here, I felt like the romantic part, I actually thought was, despite the sort of nefarious backstory, was the most effective thing here in the storytelling. I could see that she was a smart and lonely woman who was married for a long time to this heartless guy and kind of trapped in that situation. And then...

Dave comes along and I think sweetly is so credulous when it comes to the president and like the speech that Kevin Dunn wrote all this stuff and he sees her as you know American royalty you know I felt like when he describes his situation to his ex-wife over the phone where he says she's very special.

She's beautiful. She's a princess. That was planting the seed for what he would actually feel. Actually. Oh, nice. Even though it goes unsaid when he meets her. Anyway, I really liked the two of them together, but I think it's because they spent so much time with the two of them. They like really developed their relationship. Yeah, that was a good add, that scene. Yeah. It's interesting. I was reading in this article on The Ringer that they didn't have the rights to tomorrow. Right.

But then Gary Ross got the producer of Annie, Ray Stark, on the phone and convinced him to let them do it. Describe the scene. Yeah, Ray Stark was like, it's fine as long as you're not making fun of it. Fair. Fair ask. But I also wanted to say, I think Kevin Kline looks great in clothes in this movie. Ha ha.

He is. He's dashing. You hear about these things of like, oh, wardrobe classics, just the things that you should always have. He just looks so good in a few scenes where he's just wearing a white button-down shirt and these pleated blue pants. There's nothing fancy or anything about what he's wearing. It's sort of in these moments where he's off-duty from being the president, but he's in the residence. And...

He just looks great. It looks like the way clothes are supposed to fit on a person. He's a fine figure of a man.

He's great in, he plays the Pirate King in Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance. He did on Broadway and I think Shakespeare in the Park, and then they made a film of it. If you want to get your Sorkin, G&S, Phil, and enjoy some Kevin Kline, watch that production. Is there singing in it? There is a lot of singing, but it is not musical theater. It's an operetta. It's light opera. I'm out. I'm out.

You'd hate it. But it's really good. I also like, he's playing two roles, and it always takes a very good actor to convince us in two roles. And he gets to do a neat little thing, which is just have sort of a kind of take off of the mirror scene from Duck Soup and the Marx Brothers. I think it's Groucho and Harpo have a kind of a thing where like, are they looking at themselves? Is it a mirror or whatever? And he does that with himself. Yeah. And it's pretty great. And I was thinking like, I wonder how they...

How they did that. I mean, not just, not the effect. I know we've seen the effect a lot of the same actor playing against his or herself. But like, how did he coordinate what he was doing on both sides? Yeah. It must have been difficult. I would love to see them making that. Are you a Bob's Burgers fan? I like it, but I don't know it well. I haven't watched it much. It's possible I've watched every episode, which is...

many, many, many episodes. But as a result, I encounter Kevin Kline all the time because he plays Mr. Fish Odor on that show, the landlord of Bob's Burgers. Hello, burger people. It's half past rental clock. Oh,

are you doing the hansie damsel mr fish odor you know it too sure it's been about 60 years let me see if i remember it's not gonna be easy theodore roosevelt made himself a turkey melt shared it with the bear and then he told him how he really felt no kidding i had no idea i mean in its way it was also prescient like we talked about so many of the other films that we've seen yes in terms of well

the affair with the secretary. You know, like this movie came out in the spring of 93, you know, just shortly after the Clinton administration started. Also, he had a stroke and his body double pretended to be him for a few years. Oh, I mean, yeah. That's, to me, that's the biggest similarity. Sure, sure, sure. We haven't talked about Ben Kingsley yet. Ben Kingsley as the vice president. I mean, I love Ben Kingsley altogether and I like him very much in this movie. Also, in

in terms of being prescient, got a biracial, half-Indian vice president. Vice president. Well said. Good point. They called it first. Yeah. But he was good. And that's a, I mean, he's a brilliant actor in a very small role. It's fun to see somebody take that. And there's something about really great actors where they don't necessarily need a lot of screen time to make an impression. Like, he's just...

He has a presence. Yeah. And I like that you start to understand that the reason why Bob Alexander hates him so much is...

is because he's actually a good person. Because the first time they talk about him, they mention, they say something like Boy Scout. And I thought that they were referring to him that way, ironically, like he's actually not a Boy Scout. But then... Like, oh no, he's a good guy. Perhaps the least realistic thing of all, someone that everyone can agree on is a good person. That's a very good point.

The moment where they have essentially their meet cute when Dave asks him to come in and tell him his story. That was a sweet little rom-com moment too. My wife was my campaign manager. We had a budget of $2,000 with advertising. How about you? Me? Me.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice scene. Do you like or dislike the sort of clever... Well, you're leading the witness by calling it clever. So now I'm an idiot if I didn't like it, but go ahead. No, no, no. I think that this is one of those moments where clever can be used against something, you know? I was thinking about that scene in Fight Club where... Please, let's not talk about it. Oh, sorry. My bad. First rule. First rule I've already broken. My God.

Okay, moving on. In the movie, he works at a temp agency. His job is to find people temp jobs. The president of the United States is a temp job. Which he refers to. And...

At first, before he gets to that part in the line in the movie, I said to Lindsay, I was like, oh, and I get it. He's a temp. He's a temp president. You know, he's just got to, he's just filling in for the day. Right. But the job itself. Yeah. That is clever. But what is, that's bad clever? Well, I don't know. It's like,

He could have had a whole number of other jobs. His day job could have been something else, but it's a little cute. Well, I mean, ultimately, this is a cute movie. It doesn't aspire necessarily to be more, and maybe I'm imposing a greater burden on it than it even merits. I see it talked about in a way where it's like, it's so nice to have a movie that's set in the world of politics that is also free from cynicism. Yeah. I don't know if that's true. Is it free from cynicism? No.

No, it's not cynicism-free, but it posits... But cynicism loses. Yes, exactly. It's a win for morality and genuineness, yeah.

You know, I think it also, in my mind, for some reason, as I watched it, I compared it to Being There. Great movie. Which is a really brilliant other level fantastic movie. And I think that was an unfair comparison that I was sort of imposing on it as I watched. Yeah. What about Frank Capra? In The American President, they talk about how things are kind of Capra-esque. Do you like Frank Capra films? I do. I bet I haven't watched one in a long time. But yes, I do. So I have no problem with fairy tale movies.

In this Ringer article that I mentioned, there was a part that I wanted to read you that I loved. The article said that President Obama liked this film. Oh. President Obama reportedly told Klein he likes this movie because it makes...

being the commander-in-chief look easy. Obama also apparently is fond of the far more cutting Bullworth, which happens to star Beatty as a campaigning senator who refreshingly decides to abandon civility for honesty. In 2013, the New York Times reported that Obama has talked longingly of, quote, going Bullworth.

Wow. Wow, I didn't know that. He must love me. Do you know that this script that you were not that big of a fan of was nominated for Best Original Screenplay? Boo! Gary Ross would later go on to write the first Hunger Games movie. Oh, I don't think I knew that. And you know what the truth is? Having read that trilogy...

The Hunger Games movie disappointed me because it was so soft and not edgy. And I felt like it should have been an R-rated movie with a little bite based on having read the books themselves, which are quite dark. And it was sort of a PG, or maybe it was PG-13 sort of thing. I had a sort of, I had a Dave-ness to it. Well, I will say, so he wrote and directed the first Hunger Games movie.

I thought the movies that came after that were actually much stronger. I did too. And I'm going to bring it all around now. Catching Fire was directed by Francis Lawrence, who directed me and Warren Beatty and Oliver Platt. Oh, wow. In the music video for Ghetto Superstar featuring Maya and Old Dirty Bastard. That's incredible. That's great. Everything comes back, Melina.

To my career. Yeah. That I used to have. I remember watching the second one and being like, wow, this was a big step up. I agree. So I guess I have it in for Gary Ross. But we love big. But I love big. Love, love, love. I mean, like a classic perfect movie. Yeah. I want to see what the box office was. Dave was probably a big hit, right? Dave was a hit, but a medium hit.

Okay, I feel like it's a beloved film, though. I feel like it's one of those movies you usually mention, people are like, "I love that movie." People do love it. And obviously enough for our Patreon subscribers to have voted heavily in its favor. Good point. I think maybe you and I are just more jaded. We're as dark as the Molina kitchen from your childhood. Yeah, exactly. God, don't-- Please don't talk about Fight Club and don't talk about The Family Kitchen. I keep bringing up this painful image from your past.

Oh, that blender. I will say, I also bit on the suspense of the movie a little bit when Dave walks into the Senate. Yes. You couldn't have had Beans Morocco announcing the president of the United States? Come on. When he walks in and he starts to give the confession, I was like, what's going to happen now? I'm the president, and as they say, the buck stops here. So I take full responsibility for every one of my illegal actions.

he's going to have to go to jail. Like, I get it. Okay, Ben Kingsley is going to become the president. That's fine. But someone's going to have to pay for the crimes that they committed. It was only when he started to waver and I was like, oh, right. Yes, because they can wrap this all up.

by bringing the stroke back into the picture. The stroke hit at 8:42 p.m. just as the president was concluding his remarks to a joint session of Congress. Spokesmen at Bethesda Naval Hospital have confirmed it was a massive edema, and unlike his previous stroke, it has left the president fully incapacitated. Yeah, it was tidy and clever. I liked that. It was, and I completely bought in to that bit of suspense.

And I liked the way that it resolved that I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. They can just do a switch out. But then I also wondered what's going to happen at the end of the movie. I mean, in some ways, it was nice because it was a tidy kind of rom-com wonderful moment where they finally get to kiss.

Dave and Ellen in the closing minute of the movie. But you also are left with this question of like, what happens now? Exactly. As Robert Redford said in The Candidate, what do we do now? What do we do now? It's a great note to end. I mean, it's the classic unsaid question of The Graduate.

It's a great way to leave a movie is that feeling of like, "What do we do now?" - That's true. - Because what's gonna happen if they start dating? I mean, she's still the former first lady. And if someone's like, "Oh, hey, this guy." You know, Oliver Stone is gonna be like, "See?" - Right. The sequel we never got. - I want it. I'm excited about that one. - Yeah, I think probably just after rebooting The West Wing, they'll start work on Dave 2. So that's true.

It's just around the corner I look forward to. But I hope they make it Dave T-O-O. Which is a portmanteau of two and O. And it'll be about his search for a body double. That's actually funny, with Kevin Kline playing a third role. Yeah.

Love it. It's actually, that's the kind of movie that actually could get me. I love it. I'd watch it. All right. All right. We did it. It was a silly one and I'm sorry. I hope I wasn't overly negative, but I don't care ultimately. You're sorry, but you're also not sorry. Which is a portmanteau of sorry and not sorry.

Oh, dear. I read a review of the West Wing Weekly recently, because I'm insane and look at my phone a lot. I was reading reviews of the West Wing Weekly, and one of them was complaining about how I ruined the show talking about it. Not just being in it, but like, I just pick it apart and do the... Wow. Whoever that person is would probably not be happy about this one.

Can you believe that I'm still looking? Hey, I think I'll go see if there are any recent reviews of the podcast that we finished four years ago. Well, maybe there's a new review for the American President episode, which has now hit the feed. Maybe. And when we wrap this up, which maybe is now, we can tell people, you can leave us a review. Like we've stopped suggesting that people leave us a review. Why don't you leave us a whole new slew of five-star reviews? Oh, no, I mean, whatever you want to give us, but five stars would be great. Okay.

Oh, before we move on, Josh, we have only one film left in our regularly scheduled political film fest. Oh, no. What are we going to watch next?

How are we going to close things out? I think the most Capra-esque way to cap this entire West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest would be to discuss a film by Frank Capra. It's a little on the nose, but I think it just might work. All right. Yeah. So are we going to do Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? Do let's. Wow. That is going to be Capra-esque. Yeah. Yeah.

I like that. We get a shout out to that movie in the first one that we watched. Exactly. We're bringing it all home. Closure, baby. Okay, great. So Mr. Smith goes to Washington for our final installment coming up next.

Well, I had fun watching this movie. I had fun talking about it with you. I hope you all have had fun listening to this episode. Thanks so much to Zach McNeese and Margaret Miller. You can follow us on Insta. You can follow us on Twitter. You can follow us on Facebook. You can subscribe to our Patreon and you'll get the ad-free versions of this show, plus our community chat in The Signal and whatever other fun nonsense we hatch up as bonus material next.

Thanks to PRX and Radiotopia, of which we are a proud part. Radiotopia is a collection of independent, artist-owned, listener-supported podcasts, and you can find out more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. Okay. Okay. What's next? Radiotopia from PRX.