TWiT 992: Why Not Pudding? - Google's Monopoly, Net Neutrality, AI Phishing
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Is time for twice this weekend text first show from our new addix studio, I hope you'll enjoy. We've got a great panel to celebrate IT with a bra heat from sea. T, H, you shown a White band from our street and Andrew chell, u.

Author, this new book, crypt romania, will talk about crypto romania, the D O J add trust suit against google. IT looks like the D O J S one. But what was the penalty b and AI regulation and kosa the kid's online safety act? Why sometimes too much regulation is a bad thing.

All that coming up and a whole lot more live from the ax studio. It's time for twice. This is an eton's sek with you here. Because of our job, we need to be connected, tiny, over connects five more than us, right? But it's important like connection with your friends, your family, every connections or enriches your life. And that gives you something that I and high speed internet, just in the context of this show is so important, will be talking about something here.

And it's easy to forget when you big parts of the country still don't have high speed internet.

So A N T knows this. They're ware of IT at A T T. And they're making a huge effort to change that. What they are doing is on trying to cover thirty million plus locations currently who don't have IT to get IT with fiber by the end of twenty twenty five. Millions of people obviously will benefit families, businesses, schools, hospitals.

There is a place called old county in kentucky where they're now providing high speed internet to more than twenty thousand customers. A T N T join a lot of great things, connecting changes everything. A T N T people are driven by the search for Better.

But when IT comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search. Match with, indeed. But hiring process can be slow and overwhelming.

Simplify hing indeed, indeed this, your matching and hiring platform with over three hundred and fifty million global monthly visitors, according to indeed a and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast dits the busy work use indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging, so you can connect with candidates faster join more than three point five million businesses worldwide that use indeed to hire great talent fast listeners of this show will get a seventy five dollar sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed dot com slash H P O D K A T Z twelve that's indeed 点 com slash P O D K A T Z twelve terms and conditions supply podcasts you love from people you trust。 This is twit. This is to IT this week in tech, episode nine hundred ninety two, recorded sunday, August eleventh twenty twenty four.

Why not put in?

It's time for twent this week in tech, the show where we get together with the best journalists in the business and talk about the week's tech news. And its a little different looking today because as you know, from last week, we shut down the twitter e side studios and i'm in my attic right now and weirdly, I just happened as an added that's perfectly decorated just it's lit everything it's just it's an amazing thing.

Hey, great show plan for you today. We welcome back extra ana wiseman from our street. That orgues always a pleasure to see her SHE lives in a pinnacle under dc. Don't look now there's a giant hot dog sneaking up. Bind you yeah unless that's part of your your work to regulate processed meets in the .

marketplace, not entirely.

The hot dogs don't like you. Hi josh, and a greater see you welcome. Also hear a brahe at from c net, formally c net, now C D net. I don't know what they are .

going to do with us.

The is great to see you. Have you ve been with seen that long enough to have remembered when seen that owned zd net?

No, I joined. Seen that in twenty seventeen. But I keep hearing the lower and it's it's fascinating. The peer continue on to the .

next chapter on part of that law because I was the fourth employee had seen IT h wow. yeah. And when I came to they kind of healthy, minor kind of, he called me, and he had his office was an abandoned railroad car, well, was nice, that was decorated with an old railroad de car in sania cisco.

And he called, he didn't talk to me for six weeks. He completely ghosted me and then called me in to his office and said, look, if Davis is looking for people, hint, hint, sif Davis is looking. He gave me them like the job listing.

He never said you're fired. He just said, ziff Davis is looking for so I guess I learned my letter. I went to work for if Davis, and so I worked for both.

I love that. Well, that's a really fun origin. We I talk more about that.

I well, the sad thing is hosie was looking for investors at the time. And he said, if you had ten thousand dollars, I give you a pretty big chunk of the company. And I said, I don't have talks .

and now I .

don't have a big shock at the company. So IT goes round somebody else you want to walk at first time on the show, he's an author. Ban knew a book, just came out time magazines, a culture correspond. And Andrew cl is here. I and w .

created me.

You timing is perfect on this bcr pda mania hype. Hope in the fall of f tx is billion dollar thin tech empire, and by the way, is a really good read. It's it's on my bedside table because it's a great story and you are very good at making IT real.

It's not a dry story. You've got this the scenarios in there in the two time magazine fashion. Really, really great.

Thank you so much. Yeah, just came out on tuesday. It's filled with real characters, real people and you know the hype and the hope from the total.

The title is back in crypto now. Oh, no. For Better .

or for worse? No.

no. So i'm sure we'll see that later in the show.

There's this a little scenario here. I just give you an example from the book at the peak of nfs. Remember the board apes yet club on november tenth, twenty twenty one, people who was one of the guys behind the board age jet club appeared on the tonight show with Jamie fan found, announced he had bought his first nfp a board APP and he january, he dedicated several minutes of an interview with paris Hilton to the board aya club.

They held up print d outs. Print outs of their apes are off to a confused and nervously giggling crowd. Many tonight of you said something was a miss. They knew Better than the jimmie and paris in the whole game. And people, like all of people.

came away with them. So people was actually not. But behind the board tapes, he was another artist, but he was a big guy.

He released, I think, the most expensive N F. T, which was all of his works. In one.

he sold group of nfs for sixty nine million dollars. That's yes, million. And that was one of the sort of the catalysts that made all of us go, what the hell is happening? And why is there much money flowing into the space a few months later? Yet there was that. I don't know if you guys remember this. Jimmy found an interview, which was one of the most excruciating thirty seconds of television history of just jimmie and paris holding up their apps, saying, isn't this cool and the audiences, like, is IT, I guess it's cool.

found sailor cap wearing ape, reminded him of his self fee said, because, quote, I love yet rock and being breezy is .

something what in adult meal would say?

You know this a way. The whole crypto thing is an embarrassment. And yet, as you say, it's back. In fact, Donald trump addressed the big bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago and said that he was to the united states, was going to buy where we have the fort knocks of bitcoin for years.

Dannel trump was posting on social media about how much he hated bitcoin and was skeptical about IT. And he said exactly how IT seems like a sm. How was going to threaten the us.

dollar. And he was just not a fan when he was the president. He did nothing to help IT. And suddenly, ly, about maybe two, three months ago, he actually decided that he is a huge component of decline.

This is my money. Oh, I like them.

yes. So I would say you know that there are plenty of reasons that he has offered. Not enough reasons. I would say, you know, most of IT is scripted, but yes, the cypher magnet tes have an enormous amount of money still.

especially in the market.

because in america, the money .

buys elections. Unfortunately, sad to say.

the twinkle, vast twins who are deep decypher now each pledged a million dollars to the trump campaign. And you know, trump hish in a pension of going wherever the money is. He also, at that bitcoin conference in natural, he was selling, sort of like meat, great tickets for about eight hundred thousand dollars ahead.

So we understands that this is a very muddied space and that maybe he can you know like get ahead a little bit yeah he so right now he's reading speeches. I talk a big game about how he's going to put bit in in the national reserve is never going to sell the whole big coin. Mining industries is going .

to be in the us was another thing he said, I don't actually want to ask you. He said, every bitcoin knows never sell your bitcoin. Is that true?

There's a phrase called hoda ho dl which is a misspelling of hold and it's a refrain on cyp to twitter which basically in mans exactly you guys to diamond hands out you're never going to sell. You're going to buy and you're just you're going to hold on .

for dear life never happened the whole door in the game rone. That's all i'm going to say.

It's not a good flow.

It's not money to you turn me into dollars. People are going me for saying .

that oh yeah, if you've ever met a crypto grade their passion and they're mad and they hate anybody who speaks any sort of skeptic. And so so look forward to that in the coming days. They're probably in the chat right now, actually.

But IT, did bitcoin hit high a record high recently? And I mean, well, it's over sixty thousand right at this point.

yes. So my book traces sort of the rise and fall over the pandemic, where IT jumped from maybe ten thousand dollars all the way to sixty nine thousand dollars, and then after the f. tx.

Crash, jumped, fell back down to seventeen or eighteen. So same mag. Man freed.

Who is he a one of? I guess he's the villain of my book. Precipitated a lot of the bad mechanics that contributed to the crash. But yes, so IT was down eighteen thousand, and then IT rocketed all the way back, climbed up to seventy. Then there was a giant flash crash last week that was just part of person as a larger .

down to fifty, from seventy to fifty in .

the blink of an eye. So that just shows how valuable this stuff is. He can go up really fast and could go down really, really fast despite a lot of the market participant document.

Oh, it's not value anymore. You know it's grown up. It's it's we're integrating IT into all of the traditional systems, which should be worrying for all source of reasons. But yeah, it's we're going to be on the roller coaster for a while as much as some people would like IT to just cruel into whole, the its belief system sort of transcend facts a lot of the time, and it's almost like a religion for so many people. So we're still gna unfortunate have to be having these conversations for for a while, especially if people like trump are remain in the public and well, politics.

And of course, is the author of crypt domani, brand new from Simon and chester. You might want to keep that going. Let's everybody buy this book actually really good read.

Anyway, I want to thank you for a bean on I didn't realize book just came out. That's great. I've actually had a gali, I guess, for one, and really enjoyed IT.

So well done, well done. Biggest story of the week though. And usually I save the assad stories for the end of the show. But I think this is such a big story.

It's gonna be our lead, which is the passing of Susan magic I, who many, many years ago rented her age to a couple of Young guys from stanford named sergey brin and Larry page, and became one of the earliest employees of google. You may remember he ran youtube until a couple years ago when SHE retired for health reasons, when now we know why he had lung cancer and he passed this week. But everybody who knew her sings her praises, really a tragic stories, which only fifty six, but a very important google er yeah .

that was quite jilting. I had the pleasure of meeting her very briefly once a players ago and event her and her sister and and just a very brief exchange but they were both so sweet and um you know um I just this was pete ck even when you have just a very brief interaction with somebody in to know that they have that they're gone. It's still very jolting .

SHE actually and found in twenty three and me so it's really an interesting family and I think he was their mom's garage, right, that they rented to google or maybe not. SHE was working at intel, according to washington post, went to the garage of her mental park home to Larry and surging for seventeen hundred dollars a months. Which is a lot for a garage, but maybe not in menlove park.

I don't know. That's where page rank was invented and google got was launched. SHE was employee number sixteen, their first marketing manager, SHE launched add sense, which you could say you know, really powers google to this day.

Google analytics, google books, google images. The distinctive google dool was her idea on the site. SHE, in two thousand and six said, you know, we should buy this thing called youtube, which was kind of crazy in two thousand and six.

I don't know if you remember, but youtube was being sued like crazy, especially by nbc, because people kept posting clips from saturday at live. And I remember interviewing the founders of of google, of youtube at the time thing how you're going to survive when all the content, your site is basically piracy. Well, maybe they had some inside insight because obviously google buying them in two thousand and six kind of transformed the site.

And SHE became its CEO in two. And SHE also helped shepard the acquisition of double click. So really the, in a way, the modern google was a creation of Susan maggi. I see you noting trishna you think I think that I really didn't look like youtube could possibly survive in two thousand and six.

No, it's so interesting to think about that. Know, hindi is all. Of course, these platforms were going to do know. Of course, they knew it's so interesting too because a lot of platform problems when they get acquired happened because of like copy right and intellectual property issues. And they're happy if I can be IT handed off to someone bigger.

I love, I love hearing the retail of like how all this stuff happened, and i'm a dark for thinking through that stuff. So i'm loving what you're talking about. IT.

We interviewed one of the founders of google, Steve chen, on our show inside the net. Amber murthy, I did back in. In fact, I remember Amber was the first to show me youtube in two thousand four I was doing a showing canada and and he was my cohoes and they were still earring that episode until very recently.

So people must have thought I was a complete video because he said, hey leo, there's this site called youtube. It's cool. You could put your videos on IT and I went, oh, that's interesting.

I never heard of that. And people see in that last year months I thought, really you're you're a tech you never heard. But this was back in two thousand four.

We later interviewed Steve chin, and at the time I remember, nbc was mad, was hot and mad, because they kept posted clips from something our life, having google behind your helps in those cases. And I think nbc saw the light. In fact, IT made IT brought sara at light back from the dead if you asked me.

So, I mean, one of the first clips to really explode and youtube was lazy sunday in december is wrap, which, as you just said, he was huge for sandbourne career. And just that making snl cool again and just showing how clips could spread so much faster over the internet. I know a few guys are like, i'm sort of the perfect age of remembering how like means really dominated that early era of youtube before we even knew what a mean was the light saber kid, the new manuma guy, chocolate rain? These are .

all of these.

These proto means that sort of set the template for how culture is, is still going to spread two decades later.

This was before tiktok. This was tiktok before I was, was around. This is, how saw this? How old are you under thirty two? So you grew up watching you to my kids.

My kids thirty. I remember coming home and he is high school bodies. Just, they weren't watching TV. They were watching youtube. You grow up what you youtube.

I remember like when I came out and how novella and exciting IT was IT was so glitchy and the views were so low quality but I was able to show this content that was like very juvenile but seemed to relate to teenagers in a way that like that being on TV wasn't wasn't speaking to us also I just wanted to um so my time magazine colleague in a last a profile of wisky or how do you pronounce her is an just twenty no one knows .

why yeah in two thousand and fifteen that's a .

really good day but this is sort of a story from her early life. SHE grew up on the stands fora university campus next to the dansie George dances, created the simplex method and to algorithms, linear programing, considered one of the top ten and algorithms of the last century. The scene in goodwill hunting, in which math dem's character solves a math equation on the board, is based on an incident in his life.

No, so this guy dancing e, who is her neighbor, grew lemons. And at a Young age, the sisters used to pick the fruit and sell the door to door for five cents each. People, people used to call us the lemon sisters.

They thought he was a great deal, SHE said. The parallels with her current job, our heart to miss SHE bring something made by someone else to other people's homes for an unBeatable Price. And there are two ways to regard what he delivers. It's either the product of a genius or lemon.

In any case, it's a great deal. That's beautiful. good. I'll look for that time profile. From a couple years back, time did name or one of the most fluently al people in the world and most influential people in the world, twenty and fifteen. And he actually, I think, spearheaded the move from being kind of a source of juvenile, growing kick videos to educational videos. SHE was one of the people said, you know, this could be an education platform, some mon, probably econic AI around that time that we should be hosting those kinds of videos.

And really, if you too has any value these days to the general populist IT is that isn't IT that you can go there and you can figure, you can find out how to do almost anything on youtube and learn almost anything on youtube. Even the simplex method, I suppose if you had A A mike for IT, I do not. Yeah, I think that's what's so cool about IT.

So over to orate. It's like you said, my washing machine stop working. Other day, I went to youtube and looked for videos. On the other hand, when you want to just unwind, you put on some, you know, your favorite comedian and you just, you know.

I probably should scared the pants of network television and broadcasters and and even streamers like netflix. I talk to people all the time that there's one and only sort of entertained as youtube.

Everything's there. It's like this weird fine line where those broadcasters and those dreamers should do and should post clips but not too many clips because they still want you to subscribe and pay, but they wanted to them enough that you're like, all this is this is good, I need more but had a really fine line walk.

Ah i'm glad that Andrew, you mentioned the lonely planning. What is the lonely island, lonely video? Because the video that I remember refers from youtube was dick a box but you didn't say that, and i'm proud of you for not mentioning that.

Thank you. I was really thought you might go there. And if you haven't seen that, I don't don't although it's pretty down hysterical ical.

Google is in the news big time this week because they lost their any trust suit to the dog. The department of justice has been suing google as a monopoly. The judge, hott meta and washington dc, said that in fact, google illegally monopolized the search market.

He particularly pointed out their exclusive deals. This is on monday saying that they're twenty six billion dollars in payments every year to apple, to samsung and to mozilla. The makers of firefox essentially were anticompetitive google distribution agreements, he wrote four, closed a substantial portion of the general search services market and impair rivals opportunities to complete.

I mean, that is if there's a Joshua, that's the definition of any trust, right? You use your market monopoly to keep people from competing. So I haven't had .

a chance to dig into the full thing yet. I've been very, very exhausted with coa and aid verification .

and to oh yeah.

that's why I having had a chance to dig into this yet my colleague has and and my colleague, josh White throe wrote about IT. But basically, we disagree with the court on a lot of stuff. And one thing that I don't think the court really got to from what I saw for preliminarily is just that people search in very different ways.

Like if i'm looking for, I know this is very nerdy, but looking for a try had pictures or pictures of a hike, i'm Better off an instagram or all trails searching there. If I search on google, I might get something, but the images aren't really good that way for me. I sometimes searching on amazon or shop of five for products rather than google because google shop doesn't usually do as much for me as that.

There's there's a lot there's a lot of complexity here. And I think a lot of times, judges and lawmakers to fund markets far too narrow ily, rather than realizing the broadway in which competition happens. Also, I mean, some people prefer safari, but you can always still use safari.

No one stopping you from doing that. And when when I have to vi up, I just close IT out for google. It's choice that a lot of consumers make. So I don't really buy where the courts coming from. I think it's just like girls a victim of its success in regard to start here more than than anything yeah .

a number of people we were talking about this, I think on mac break weekly a lot of people I think he was alex linz, I said the problem is the courts are always behind the game, right? So the dog went after microsoft just before their monopoly in browsers was dying anyway and would have died probably anyway.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but that's the point you're making is that people are using keep hearing millennial are using tiktok to search or summer are using tiktok to search yeah, I finds hard to believe it's too. You're not in abroad. You use tiktok to find stuff me.

Yeah, it's wait. Okay, let's be honest.

When you're washing the machine on the fridge, did you go to tiktok? I did actually .

believe because I was going to say IT. But then I was I start I thought about I did a google search first, okay and .

then I saw the washing shines.

Yeah I went to tiktok and then I actually got what I needed and and I did. I pulled up the city here because says, um you know among jensie, I am a millennial but i'm thirty and I I feel like i'm kind of slender al but not actually but I feel like when one take talk all the time. But apparently sixty three percent of people say they use tiktok as a surge engine who are jensie .

um but I boles my mind although i've had this debate with my daughter, who's also thirty two and he said that you're just so old fashioned nobody uses google any more. Tiktok duck is the home of dancing and singing videos. How does that help you in search? I don't understand. So I know know this is .

a very bad question. I think it's something that people are are wondering and there is there okay? Yes, there is singing and dancing, but there is a very real person, real world aspect where if I searching for a product or I want opinions on a product, I will go to tiktok um to see how real people feel about IT because they'll be honest i'll say like, okay, this really worked well for me. I've even I mean I would not advise this but like even for like medications and like how do people react to this and which all please don't do that but like and talk your .

doctor when you eat your tide pods you really should wash IT down with a lot of water.

It's exactly what i'm searching. But for those kinds of .

things .

where you want, like a real person who may have experienced signature experience, we will upload everything to take talk. So it's a highly likely that you'll find something. But please fact check what you find.

But still I feel like I feel so old. I'm sure as what people said about youtube too, what you mean the growing kick video site? That's where you go to learn how to do simplicity, coding? No, come on. And but tiktok has focus on shorter videos.

yes, although they've been pushing longer video. So there are you could even up look up to thirty minute videos, which I hoped that .

I never study upon a thirty minute I A second.

you right? But they're experimenting with that, I guess, in the same way that any video platform is you start with fifteen seconds .

and you build up do you agree with our street show shann's loving firm that google isn't? I mean, you saying they're not a monopolist on a or he's not saying your .

colleague be out on. They have the majority of that's a totally like .

eighty or a ninety percent of search, right? You're done through google but apply. That's not everything .

that's required to be monopoly though, like they have to be actively stopping competition, unfair practices that .

seems to be paying apple twenty billion dollars a year so that google is a default search on safari that seems pretty any competitive.

Is that not what I don't get though? And I mean, this genuinely is I don't understand why they would pay that because everyone who gets an iphone switch is over immediately anyway like that was.

I don't know if they do. It's the tyranny of the default. I think you can, but people just do whatever is the default usually, right?

I don't know. I need advice. I've had I always fetch over to google first stuff. Safari annoys me with some of their settings and then .

internet explore.

But you know when you're in the iphone, you're still using web kit. You're not using chrome when you use chrome because chrome is required by APP. But another, by the way, any competitive move chrome required by apple to be web kit, to be safari with a chrome on top of chrome?

Oh, I didn't know that I only have android, but they're saying apple zoan apply too. And i'm like, I have .

another kind of point. Well, what are right? No, I mean a tenable point of view. I'm just curious abroad. You agree, I don't know.

I feel like nab that brings up a really interesting point. I feel like I A I I mean what I my immediate reaction was okay shocker, google deemed to the .

police via yeah so so I feel .

like I need to dig more into that a alternative view point and and um I I absolutely entries by that so yeah I am not going to make a decision and toying and more but is kind of like, yeah, they're kind of everywhere .

here yeah but I guess it's not simply being monopoly is not sufficient. That's not being big. And IT often seems like congress feel like being big is is the bad thing, but that's not illegal to be big.

Yeah yes.

So and ahead.

I was just reading about this so a little bit. But yeah, I mean, that sort of what google lawyers were arguing during the cases like, sorry, sorry, successful. Like for what I can see, IT does seem like meta is pointing to some pretty specific .

not of the judge, not this OPPO current driving.

which is very confusing.

yes.

But as you mention that paying smart fogg companies and browser makers billions and billions of dollars so that google is the default search engine seems monopolistic c to me. And also to show on point, why are they doing IT? They already had such, such a luck and so many people's minds and imaginations.

But I do think, as you said, leo, just like the habit forming process of if just you have A A default browser, a lot of people are just not going to change IT and that's very powerful yeah. The other thing I just want to say about this is judge meter cited a specific case many times in his ruling that goes back to two thousand there. This was like the last big anti trust ruling in tech against microsoft.

And you had mention this earlier. The top of of, like the majority of computer is just running windows software, running internet and explored. And there was this major ruling in two thousand.

Now I would love to actually go back and see, was internet explorer dominance already on the way in? Or was this ruling instrumental in allowing firefox and chrome to rise? The case I make is that .

you wouldn't have a google if IT worked for the doj shutting microsoft down starting in one thousand hundred and ninety eight. In the final, the consent to create thing IT was early two thousands that really opened the door for google. And so in general, I think that kind of the point is interesting.

Judge meter did not say google had a monopoly in search of all things pointing to amazon. And I think walmart, when that can be right, they're saying and meta and there are other companies that do search, so they don't have a monopoly in search. It's and by the way, the real question is what is the remedy gonna be? He's made the decision, but now theyll be a hearing for next months to decide a separate trial, the timing for a separate trial for the remedy.

So there's going to be a whole another trial. It's not clear what the justice department wants. They did say that the the ballots solution that european regulators used to choose search engines didn't work.

Nobody switched. So IT implies that they are not onna. Seek some sort of ballot when you sign that. That's a terrible remember that happened with the microsoft case in the eu. They had the browser ballot.

And when you first install ve went us, you get to choose which of a number of obscure pressure you'd prefer to use. Apparently that doesn't work IT. When time that search the washington ARM side, bomberg says the agency could demand the separation of but search business from other products like android or crime so IT could be a break up.

The judge could also stop short of ordering a full break up and just say, ah these exclusive search deals you got to stop that was the one person that hurts is apple, which gets twenty billion a year from and it's about a third of its services revenue and a big services quarter this quarter, thanks to google, in large part really hurts firefox that most of mozilla's funding comes from google. So I don't know that remedy is a very good remedy. Doesn't hear google as I mean, they say, yes, stop spending billions of dollars on these other companies .

yeah that's it's such an irony. It's such an irony because firefox and mozilla, they're all about open source technology and having these open systems. But yeah sort of the financial reality is that eighty percent of mozilla Operating budget is coming from google so you know you can agree with the ideals of mozilla and open source and and these strong anti trust laws and then they are sort of being helped by the ah I mean they hand that fees.

I want to point out the judge did not mention tiktok as a credible competitor. Weirdly, he mentioned amazon and he didn't mention walmart. I wasn't hu Cindy.

Another retailers have begun offering advertising related to searches on their own websites. So apparently weirdly, that's that's letting google off the hog when IT comes to their search monopoly. Let's take a little break.

We are doing the first tweet from the attic studio. But i'm so glad that I have other people working in their addicts except for shasha a apparently is working on hot dog hill. But actually, is that the microsoft bliss wallpaper with hot dogs? Yeah, that's what I thought.

yeah. Okay, all right. Is IT a commentary? Is that a subbed commentary of microsoft?

No, it's just I went when the snapshot hot dog meme was really popular. This is my favorite thing to come out of IT. It's just it's perfect.

I I missed that when what does the snapp jet hot dog mean?

That was their plan to monodist. When they started doing like artificially virtual like like characters. The dance around the hot dog was the first and everyone was laughing at them. And because this is this is how they are going to move at times like this is their plan. So I just I fell in love with that instantly and it's it's been in my heart ever since.

Well, there you go and she's up there in hot dog hill. Andrew choice also hear branded book crypt omani just came out really, really a good read. And i'm not just saying that actually read IT hy pope and the fall of ftc is billion dollar phin tech empire.

Thank you for joining us. Andrews works at the time, not a bad place to be a correspond for. And also with this from scene t are you how what was the reaction side to seen at a barrow to the acquisition this week by zd net where people like freaked out or what I think I think you .

I think that I would be natural for any acquisition. But this one I think there was more excitement just because if Davis feels like a good fit, in fact Better.

can I just say Better than private equity than red ventures, although who owns if Davis .

um if David is public and go and um and so um I think it'll be yeah it'll be it'll be nice to to start something different there. A new chapter where stay optimistic.

The only bad thing is once again, you have to change email address.

Yes, that's really the biggest thing. And you get your business card. It's the whole it's whole thing. You I can't .

complain. Saw story my. He said, oh, no, how do I get a hold of people now? What's they're knew that he was worried about that, right? But now I asn't you were worried about the new email dress.

Yeah, because I know I was working at cbs interactive. I was working at seen when they switched over to c interactive. You've been through this, so I was there for that. I get a email .

with my email address. You'll be the first person, I promise.

So good bra, yes. If we are in touch with you at some odd address, please.

I don't let that happen.

You don't let that happen to you. I frozen, my frozen. Did I freeze myself?

I think I did. What did I do? I've been messing with something when I screwed myself up. In zoom IT looks like you lost your camera. In zoom.

you can be reanimated in many years now that you're at a time if you're choosing so well.

that would be good. I will take that what I time. We just toggled your camera in, zoom on and off and tugged my camera and zoom on and off.

That's anthon the esson who is our technical expert at this point. And how do I do that in zoom itself that little camera ah oh oh yeah. I stopped IT by accident.

I click the button. Next thing you're going to do is, say, leo. OK.

But we're still working this out also. It's it's a little sweet appeal. okay.

Thank you all for being here. First show we're going have a little first show problems, but we appreciative. We're glad you all here our show today.

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And the first show in the attic studio, somebody said, your cameras too good, you never let them see, is what we have a great panel. It's great to have you handle. O chow, first time on twit, author of cyp t.

Domani, is a correspondent of time magazine. Would love, have you here a bra? Hd, we love you from senate seeing IT and from our street dodos wonderful. Susanna wiseman, SHE lives in a pineapple under dc SHE is also senator shasha a on twitter, still using the twitter.

yeah. I mean, the real senators and congress in our silver are so there there and the .

reporters that kind of interesting, they haven't left IT. Elon keeps get in trouble, though I have to say he's not. He has found all sorts of ways now the latest is the former chairman of the board of twitter, who had a huge amount twitter stock and was supposed to be paid off when a elon took the stock, took the company private, is suing for twenty million dollars, saying elon never gave me my money, what is how can even I don't even I guess he's also since he ever paid the rent and sanford to ever pay their rent, they're moving now. They're moving down the sand of so x, but we intimated.

clear how much he hates saver's disco and thinks is overrun with all the wrong people. He hates everything though.

He also said we're going at a california, although he hasn't done that yet. But they're moving tesla and star. What is that space's out of california, texas, because they didn't like some rule that said, schools didn't have to report, pronounce to the parents and he says, well, that's no good. I'm leave in I I swear you on that's why that article about when .

I saw that article about the moving the twitter age views like, okay, I guess they must be living in for us and just down the road okay.

all right, all right. I guess it's an in room thing to move temporarily. Yeah, yeah. We actually aren't done with the the the google stories. Let's see google also got a little bit of trouble for an ad that they they post published that they paid for on the olympics.

Did you see the dear sydney? And this was a google ad with a with a parent talking to google AI saying, helps my daughter write a letter to her favorite athlete, which pissed people. It's like that's not parenting.

That's not parenting. Have an AI, right? The letter, no, have the kid write? The letter was called. Dear sydney was developed in house to promote google's gemini AI platform, but according to ad age viewers at a difficult time, looking past its miscalculated story line, google has pulled the end, got a lot of airplane last week during the olympics, including nbc prime time, also on e cnbc in USA. Yes, people are turning against the word AI, are they?

I am. I'm dying to talk about a in the olympics here. I don't know, like i've been found, the olympics, like everybody in the world, is just like such a unified. And you can see in the numbers on social media how much people it's like you. The biggest is bigger than Harris walls.

It's speared partly because they did IT right this time instead of the tokyo olympics when they chopped IT up and just they mess IT up. Now thanks to streaming, you can watch anything live. You can watch IT later. P cocks on a great job. So that's been a lot of the reason for the interest, I believe.

Yeah, I think so. But because it's such a big event, obviously, the biggest industries and the biggest companies are going to try to come in and you monetize or advertise in all these different ways. And AI is like, you know, the buzz industry biz word by the industry buzz bubble of the moment. So we're seeing all these interesting like deployments of AI around the olympics insert of this massive way, some good and some bad. Um so one of the first ones relates to p cock and nbc decided to use so there's this legendary sports cater name, all mics and we've .

started to use.

yes, they trained in an eye on his voice I mean, he's one of the greatest casters of the last many decades you know he's slowing down.

He can you be there to do daily recaps anymore, I suppose so um they train an AI and his voice and now if you go on nbc and sign up for IT, at the end of the day, you can get like a little personalized al Michael recap of what happened based on what sports you are interested in and the upshall t is that all Michael was on board. He was like, he said he was scared at first, but then he he was like, IT sounded so good. I was excited, but also terrified.

A lot of the users say that it's like not actually a bad usage of AI, perhaps because if they like, they've been accustomed to hearing all michel's voice for for decades and now they gets a sort of feasibly maybe like a ninety percent version of IT. Obviously, I would argue you you know just to hire another sports caster like it's okay. We can we can move on. But this is a tool that hasn't been glittering, has been like IT, hasn't been telling lies. And it's been like fairly accurate about what's been happening at the olympics.

That's encouraging because I want to retire and let me I do my shows. They do good. Have you heard the al micros racket? I haven't heard them. I haven't.

But one of my friends are right of her slammed the tish power wrote, just read a piece of about IT. He was doing IT everyday. He's a big olympics fan. He was actually like, yeah, IT was like helpful in like digesting and hearing you know what had happened that day again. Like rather just have a real person with expertise tell me about this.

I think though I know because i've watched some of the secondary sports on the olympics and some of the announcers for those lesser sports are not great. Yes.

they have so many events .

that they have to get every person who's ever set in front of a microphone, and apparently some people who haven't. And so I understand that they wanted somebody well known, a voice, a sound that was well known. All mics is, I mean, I love all Michael.

He was the anounced during the one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine word series game, the sands is earthquake game. And he did an amazing job of that. I know, because I was at the game and I was listening to him as I was trying to get home.

So he's I mean, he's legend, but there is a certain style and a flow in a cases. And if you're just doing a recap, be probably could A I could simulate that pretty well. IT wouldn't be creative.

So that was one use of AI role that during the lymon s, that seemingly wasn't a disaster. I'm going to run through a couple more that i've been reading about. Okay, intel, they're making a play. They say that they've been they can use technology, sort of body scanning AI technology to identify Young athletes. And if they have significant talent in certain areas.

well, we say how that works for a few years, right? Yeah no.

that they said, okay. So first they said they went to some villages in senior and scant more than a thousand children and identifying who maybe has like a burst of of energy, significant part, yes, so we can totally dead.

And the Young people to be.

yes, hunger games. I was a bit. Then they actually were. They set up a station outside the olympic stadium, where IT, like kids, could basically go up and and measure like how fast they are out of out of the blocks, or you know, power, reaction time and strength. Then, yes, there is a lot of people who would see that and just see this topic flashing.

trust. No one in our clutch disco chat says his vote is for a john main, A I telesat and all. I would love that.

Just a boom pow. I think that would I wonder if I could could do something with that much personality that would be impressive. There wasn't an article on CNN yesterday that said brands should avoid the term A I.

This is study actually published in the journal of hospitality marketing and management back in a june IT found the describing a product as they I lost the customers intention to buy IT. The sample participants across various age group s showed them the same products. The only difference was, one was described as high tech, the other is using A I vacant layers, TV, consumer services, health services. In every single case, the intention to buyer use the product service was significantly lowered when we mentioned AI in the product description.

that explains why apple avoids the word.

It's apple intelligence.

It's our intelligence. It's machine learning. They know they know how to do. They know how to not scare people away. Watch wwdc.

They did not drop AI as much as google did every two seconds. Um and so it'll be interesting how they talk about IT with the coming iphone event. But yeah, I think that was the key example of someone knowing how to not scare people away.

By the way, I have think of credit. The study's author is dogan gersup. He is the taco bell distinguished professor of hospitality business management. That's a chair. I am the toko bell distinguish professor about spital.

That's the greatest title. I failed. I failed.

Well, you have something to aspire to rush, something to shoot for new life. I guess that is a surprise me that that maybe it's just burn out, right, that A I there's so much A I everywhere we look that they're just people are just burn out on IT.

It's like burn out and it's also just the way that generate A I just kind of seemed to come out of nowhere all at once, like obviously I has been powering a lot of things for a long time but with things like chat B T kind of coming out of nowhere and saying, you know who needs to know how to right?

When had ChatGPT can do IT then you have guess who, guess who's writing articles um writers uh and so if they feel like they're threatened by something like guardians im intel gent in G A I, then you're going to have the warmest reception in that regard. And then you know public opinion is as sweet as well is just the domino effect. But I think the way that I kind of um the surge of of AI everywhere is not only leading to burn out, but also just trust because that there are any clear guidelines yet. It's just it's here and it's everywhere and we don't know what going do.

That's actually a good point. I mean, creatives are the kind of the canaries in the coal mine when IT comes to A I and they're very nervous. I think that's one of the reasons people didn't like this google and yeah is because why would you have your daughter use A I to write? And a fan letters or favorite athlete shouldn't SHE be writing that? I think people see this as somehow replacing humans and humanity in a way.

So I understand why they burn out on IT. We may not have a choice. We may be stuck with A I yeah but and I think that add just .

the add from google just adds to the perception that these companies that are trying to roll IT out like don't really understand what people want or trying to roll IT out for the exactly the wrong reasons the of that google could get behind this ad and think like up the chain of command that he was like that people want to not have their daughter right a letter to their hero.

Is just not the use case that like there may be other use cases for this stuff. But if the companies in charge, like the techies that rule, like trying to convince to use IT, are coming up with this sort of stuff, IT really is the big factor is incredibly high. I think we saw also going back to, yeah, we are talking about the displacement of creative people, the city of OpenAI memri said this year, like, oh, maybe A I will replace creative jobs that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

And that just seemed like such a slap in the face to like, who are they creative of people who like shouldn't whose jobs shouldn't exist? exactly. So I think even if these tools y're really useful for some things, there's been some like you shooting yourself in the foot examples over these tech companies are little misguided as to they are so excited to get these products in every single industry that yeah the public perception .

is suffering ah I I love this quote from jay mac, joana matcher, jeff sky, her book snake bitten apparently on three order SHE said, I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do are and writing not for AI to do my art writing so that I can do my laundry .

and dishes .

that's so real it's one of my favorite quotes about a on yeah .

absolutely and I think um you know just to add to what Andrew was saying. Yes, I think the reason that ad face so much backlashes because it's taking away something that is inactive, human and tender and q and half um whether I think there are other AI ads that have done a Better job of showing the the potential to actually make your life easier and not take away something that is meaningful.

And I think one example, and I hate to give opening I pad on the I feel like they're doing a lot of really creepy things. But one thing that they did really well as they partnered with an APP called be my eyes, which is for people who are blind that ad where they had somebody who was blind kind of healing a cab in getting all these instructions on or getting all these descriptions on. Um you there are surroundings uh that's a really good example of how A I can actually be helpful for people and actually feel avoid um so if companies do Better job of researching those angles and um providing services that are actually beneficial, I think they would fear a lot Better.

Be my eyes is such a great that's a perfect example. IT was an APP that was designed for people with vision problems, but IT required humans, right? You would go into the store and you'd say, what does that say on this label and and human would have to you to use the APP and the human would have to join you on the APP and tell you now with OpenAI.

And I haven't talked many blind people who have used this yet, but the AI is doing that. So you don't have to wait for a volunteer to dial in. It'll do IT instantly. I think the perfect example of yeah, I can be i'm not at A I i'm actually kind of i'm known around the network is the AI boll here. I'm kind of pro AI.

but we i've got a question for you as a baseball fan, what are your thoughts about AI empires?

I think that's a great okay. There is a perfectly example. In fact, I don't think they use in an olympics.

They're already had cameras in tennis, right as line judges using a line judges that's a perfect, perfect use for AI. He's either in or out, either hit the line or not, right? There's in football we've had instead was very controversial in both baseball.

E first was football and baseball added instant replace. Very controversial. People worry that would slow play down.

IT would undermine the refs. IT would IT would cause problems. And it's actually proven really a useful tool in football.

I don't think anybody any football for these days is against instant replay. And and if they started using IT in baseball last year, I think right. And no, it's it's been an improvement. The AI is fine with me when it's very clear you have I don't know. We've seen we've seen empires in baseball make complete and every emp ire has a different strike zone.

Is that how you should be right? The border checks with the home play empire before he goes into the to bed because he wants to know where the strike zones is going to be as different prevent. And and when you look at now, they for one time, this is controversial on TV.

They didn't use to show the strike zone they now showed for every pitch. So you know, if the opp is completely on face is just a matter of time, makes sense for a eyes there. But you agree, Andrew, are you baseball in?

yeah. And I agree. I mean, the beauty of, you know, baseball, like baseball, the humanity and IT does not come from the umpires as as much .

as I respect the human. They go come for mumbai.

But it's what these, these amazing, amazing athletes are doing with in very specific confines. And if the confines are malleable, that just IT worsens. You know, the beauty of the sport, I would say.

So the more that you can enforce strict the rules of the games so that people can focus on excEllence, you know, I think it's up because IT is amazing. What like how most empires like developed this skill over years, and it's like such a craft. But IT is a thing that maybe a machine can do Better.

more science than art.

Yes.

you know, yes. And I create, I crack myself. Poco says baseball replace started in twenty fourteen.

I have not been following baseball as much as as I probably should. And surge strip in our discount, says baseball boring. Okay, we'll move on.

Let's see. Alright, I think this is a good for you. shasha. You may remember the bite administration, the fcc under the by administration attempted to restore net neutrality.

Us court has now blocked the by administration fcc net neutrality rules, saying a really, as congress is job to do this. The fcc resented the open internet rules in twenty fifteen under a republican majority, under a democratic majority. Bt, last April, they are assumed regulatory oversight of broadband internet.

I have to say I have always been a big support of neutrality, but I didn't see maybe I wasn't looking, but I didn't see a complete decline in the quality internet or the Prices of internet in the us. After twenty fifteen, the the nightmare the people predicted didn't IT didn't seem to happen. The six circuit court of appeals, which had delayed the rules set on thursday, would temporarily block neutronic rolls scheduled oral arguments for this fall, possibly even after the election.

Where where do you stand on this show? I know that essentially our street is more libertarian. Is that a fair way to put IT?

Yeah, we're about free market is so for us, it's about competition. We've opposed that neutrality. I don't do telecom.

I refuse telega. It's too much. It's just too much. I can't do telecom, but I do think there's something to be said when advocates say if this happens, then this will happen and when that doesn't pan out, IT doesn't make that advocates look good.

And it's not just advocates to lawmakers to and I know some people have have point do examples of how getting rid of new that neutrality harmed in certain cases, but the the disastrous consequences didn't really come to play. Even know when I work on aid verification policy, I try very hard to make sure everything i'm saying is rooted completely. In fact, if i'm making a prediction, I have like ample reason to believe that i'm right about IT.

And I think a lot of net neutrality advocates kind of fail there and have some egg on their face and need to need to explain going further when they make predictions. Okay, you know, why is this the case now when IT wasn't? Then if that makes sense.

the principle of that the trial is seems to be very clear and proper, which is that every bit on company's network should be treated equally. And so that means companies like comcast shouldn't be able to say, oh, you netflix, you're gonna a be fast, but we're going to make sure disney plus is slow. They shouldn't be able to treat different bits differently.

And that was the basic principal of that neutrality, I think, is probably the case that market forces kept companies like comcast from you doing any of the evil, the various things they could have done absent ent, a neurotically regulation. For instance, they could say, hey, netflix, you've got ta pay up for a long time. A long internet service providers said things like, well, google free writing on our network.

They should pay for all the traffic that they use on our network when in fact, of course, we as users are paying for the access the network. And youtubes bits should be equal. Anybody else is bits.

IT didn't happen. IT could have happened absent net neutrality regulation. I don't know that is that market forces that kept from happening is is not like we have a competitive internet service provider market in the us.

Yeah, i'm not sure it's you know it's funny with the internet. It's one of those things where some of the like sort of natural monopolies that are starting to a road in a lot of cases and when so it's very sorry when it's natural monopoly plus such an overregulated area like regular and touches every bit of the internet or at least internet service provider, not the internet itself yet. But IT makes IT kind of hard to know why things happen.

In my view, it's kind of a theme with health care, everything so regulated that it's like if you move A P, you're not one hundred present. sure. If something happens or doesn't happen, why IT doesn't? Because you have the insurance levels and you have the the provider levels. And I think that's a bit of IT here that that I think advocates got IT wrong. But i'm not sure i'm not exactly sure why I pan out the way I did.

Yeah well, this is not your bailly. What I understand i'm putting you're not in charge of all libertarian positions .

in the world. Most not all.

most but I mean, so I want to be very fair because I am a huge advocate for neutrality, but I want to be fair. We didn't see the negative consequences we thought we might see. Of course, it's not a very competitive environment in the us.

Most people in something like eighty percent of people in the us have at best two choices for internet service, a phone company, a cable company. That's not. I mean, I sitting here in my atic, we I have no choice.

I have to use conchas for the access comcast has been going up and down. I was terrified. Last few weeks has been dropping after three or four minutes.

Who else can I choose? No one. No one except starlink.

So we did order a stuff. I'm looking up. We did order starlink at some point. I'll have that as as a failure, but it's kind of terrifying to do what we're doing here, which is live streaming for hours a day relying on comcast.

That seems like A A risky business at the studio, we had five different internet service providers for redundancy. So this bando, hi bindo. So I lived in phillipines for big chunk of my life.

There is no, no neutrality there. And I can tell you about having no, no neutrality is that one company gets to dictate the entire internet, right? And I I don't like IT.

It's not good. I think the courtship point of view probably was this is a question for congress because IT really requires relay sifting broadband. I can't remember if it's really classifying broadband between being publisher.

I can't remember that the choice has been a long time, but is something congress should probably weigh on. Ultimately, the fcc acts at the behest of congress. Congress has to make the laws.

The fcc has to implement them. So I think IT is probably fair of the court to say, you know, let's hear what congress has to say about this. And then I I would encourage congress to in trying naturality in the law because I think IT is in principal anyway, the right thing to do.

All bits should be created and IT delivered equally regardless of where they're coming from. And you don't want to let an internet service provider to get to decide. Yeah, we think we think comcast can pay can ask netflix to pay more or ask google to pay more that they should all be equal bits. They should be think it's .

just good when IT comes from congress in general because of back and forth with the neutral ality and stood for nobody and .

and that was happening. We're republican administration, the democratic administration yeah and it's not your right, congress has to say.

And even sometimes when agencies do have authority and they might be able to do this, I think it's still just Better when you have these big decisions that, that IT really comes from congress exactly in this case, so that it's not like every couple of years you switch back and forth enough to figure out how everything works.

Yeah, IT was the distinction. Thank you to our chat room for reminding me. Fame famous in in our youtube chat, said IT was whether to treat internet service providers as common Carriers like the phone company. You can't the phone company doesn't get to decide who to, you know they can't charge benee more than they charge me to use a silly example is our benito.

Actually I would love to hear beney to some of the adverse effects that yes you you felt um so like I think the biggest .

one of the most front one is that facebook prety much on the internet over there. But you know you have a camera. Let's see your shining face and I don't I didn't put myself in. You can pull you up.

okay? So I want to be able to I want to be able to see you. We don't usually see beny. We only hear is is the voice of god coming from above. But he's here with so and found this question. It's like all of the things coming from and to to and from the facebook happened really quickly and everything else is really slow.

Uh, uh, a lot of people I don't who don't have like who don't pay for internet access to get like a coding code free internet access for their phones um that's basically the facebook internet so facebook is free and everything loads on facebook but nothing else. You can you don't have date of anything else, only facebook. yeah.

So I mean that that might be and actually a positive that could be consider a positive for those who can't afford internet access. We still can get um some sort of portal into the internet. But for that to be controlled by one company, I don't like how that feels.

You remember that this was facebooks plan. They offered IT to india, and they called internet dot orgues, which was a facebook internet that would be provided to everybody in india, even people who couldn't afford internet access. But IT was mostly facebook with a little bit of different stuff thrown in.

IT was interesting because indian regulators said, we know a little bit about colony ism here, and we don't think we want that. So they forbye that, but maybe they may be. Is that what you had in in the phillipines was the internet dot org? Was a facebook internet, I must depend, possible.

But I think is more that facebook just paid the career facebook paid yeah, yeah. That should not be not be allowed, I think. But again, I have to be fair and point out that we didn't see any horrendous failures as a result of the exchange and rules in twenty fifteen.

We shall see that way credits tim woods, who coined that term neutrality but want to get tim on one of our shows for a long time, will see when you get him on and talk about IT. Should we let me see? Yeah, let's take another break.

If it's time you're watching this week in tech with our wonderful panel, it's great to have you on under I think we we want to get you back on a regular basis under our shows. The author crypt domani hy pope and the fall of f tx. Is billion dollar fin tech park. His sbf is in prison for twenty years. How long is the sentence is twenty five years.

He'll probably serve around twenty one.

And we've been ordered to pay everybody back.

Yes, they found that because .

I thought the money was all gone.

IT was at the time the clipton markets have rebounded. That's the sort of interesting part about this. I think IT would take a little longer than maybe the thirty seconds I have here to explain why a lot of the creditors are gone to get a lot of the money back. Wow, sam, still being very guilty in the cord of law. Both can be true at once.

Yeah, mean, IT just luck that bitcoin went up, right? I mean, he .

basically made to vasily oversimplify. He made a lot of giant bets using customer money. He knew that he was, you know, all of fd xx terms condition said when you deposit money into your account, it's gonna stay there.

We're not using IT. He was just he went any tocked and he was just he was spending IT on all sorts of crazy investments on me coin, yes, not to mention the real estate, which maybe is a good investment. You waterfront by hum is real estate .

IT doit doesn't let you off the hook if the investments you illegally made turned out to be good investments. yes.

And so, yes. So one of one of the big investments he made was into the ae company, anthropic. Actually, he was sort of an early, early investor into anthropic, which whose value absolutely exploded due to the air boom when sam was sitting in a prison.

And that basic, that asset alone was able to make so many, so many creditors whole. And this is something what sams layers were trying to argue in court that we should be able to talk about anthropic. Because I was savi investment on sams party.

He knew where the market was headed. And I was sitting there. I was there for the whole trial in new york in october.

The judge, judge caplin, said to the lawyer, this is like, if you rob the bank and then you go buy a powerful ticket and then you win fifty million dollars, and then you say that because you can return the money, you didn't steal the money. That's not how the law were perfect. So basically, he did not allow them to talk about anthropic at all.

But yeah, it's interesting. So a lot of the creditors are going to get get a lot of their money back, not all of IT, but you know, I think one that sort of obscures maybe the moral the moral choices that sand made of, like deciding to use the money when IT wasn't his. And then also the real harm that is inflicted on upon people who lost access to their money for two years, people who put you know their life savings forty thousand dollars, one hundred thousand dollars, eight hundred thousand dollars into um an account that then became frozen for a good two years and had a lot of people have their lives up ended.

So yeah I think there are some people that would argue like, no IT wasn't like how much of a crime could be if the money came back. You can argue that I I would disagree. So we've .

learnt something here. Sam, a bank band freed, won the powerful and congratulations is still in jail. It's great to have you.

Great, but it's a great book cyp domani. You see, you did a great job of explain that. perfect. That's why it's a good life. Is also hear from our street that org we are onna get to kosa ninety three was at ninety three to three or something in the senate. I forget .

the provokes, but IT was three who voted against.

Only three people voted against costa. Now it's gonna go to the house. But I want to know what this latest status is.

Course, this is something you ve been very actively following effect. Two years ago, you wrote the definitive piece on IT and why age verification is a terrible idea. We'll talk about that.

Just little. It's great to have you and abara heat. We always love having abara on the show. Technology reporter had seen IT and a regular on the technology weekly. I hope you're going to keep doing that even though mike is in his basement now.

Oh my god, I look forward to the next episode of here. Has set up is almost as good as yours. If not, I will see.

you will see the Better one techy this morning cancel as the tech is partly because it's almost impossible to do the call and show in this environment. So he was going to do so. He's going to hands on tech at eleven o'clock on saturday's specific c time.

In the same time slot, he'll answers a question and maybe sometimes do refusing things like that. He was going to do IT from the studio until he found out that we have ripped everything out of the studio for the ad. So so I got an emergency call this morning, about ten thirty bank.

Can we use the studio? So he was actually in here today doing hands on technology from the attic, and there was great, heavy in the basement though once he gets set, all set up and working. So it's great to have you and ebra, you can stay where you are. This this is really just we're now like the rest, we're like everybody else. Nobody, nobody is a studio that's crazy that mean yeah .

but welcome to reality. Yes.

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I love min mobile IT makes me wonder why I ever paid more min mobile that comes slash to a, thank you min mobile costa, what is K O S A the kids online safety act? Is that Richard? Ha.

yes, IT has a new acronym now, though, and also was bathin senate as like an amendment is like a hundred and seven age amendment to some random unrelated bill to stop access paperwork, which this sounds a lot of a reporting requirement.

So do that. IT feels like they do that intentionally. They attach unpopular bills to like defense spending so that he has to be passed, right? They do that all the time.

So this was an deven spending one for once, which is nice because I often have to be like, hey, guys made me remove this from this really big defense spending bill because this has nothing to do with IT. This one was just reducing paperwork. And I, eh, I do this stuff a lot, but I actually had trouble finding the new version of the bill.

And then I was like, okay, cool. Here's the amendments. And I to click through sol many amendments to figure out the final version and they put some bad stuff back in that i'm pretty sure they're taken out. So i'm like like just like crying reading coast up for the like ninety seven time in .

its current version. So the senate passed IT ron widen, weird bedfellows rn wide. Rand paul both voted against IT.

And who is the third that voted against IT? Mickey, that's right, for different reasons, I might add. But weirdly, IT passed by this vast majority in the senate.

I've heard some people said, well, that was a safe vote for them because no one wants to be the you know, guy that the is opponents says, you know, he doesn't like kids very much because he voted against kosa knowing that IT wouldn't pass in the house. Is that. Is that a fair representation of why so many senators voted for?

No, unfortunately, the so kosa has something like sixty eight cosponsors, which is really rare. But it's of course because it's four of the kids and what's in IT doesn't really matter and it's it's actually really frustrating because not just myself, but many of my allies have talked to different offices about the problems in IT and and they will write all those concerns as ridiculous and actually amend some of those concerns out and the leader amend them back in.

But of the remaining senators, I know a couple at least had concerns about IT. Some thought I might be worked out in the house or at least that's what they were saying. And the house seems to be going back and forth on whether not they're interested in taking IT up. I'm really hoping they .

won't course if that is that the paper watch reduction act that they'd vote for and then costa would just be along for the ride.

Is that out? Yeah yeah, yeah. It's like, you know um if you if you're writing a paper or like an up at or just some document and someone like ads in some comments and you accept those comments like imagine how he was comments they're like hundred and seven pages. That's what broken.

The system is so broken. Other people in other countries must be saying you're way in a what.

I mean, what's amazing here is that they knew that there were so many concerns from civil liberties groups and all different kinds of reasons to most groups kind of agreed on the first amendment problems and certain of other problems. But instead of facing them and saying, okay, we need to go back to the drawing board or figure out a Better solution here, they're like, just hide this in here and let's what that is IT possible .

that i'm trying to give them covered to the sender who voted for this, because there's no reason of all for this is IT. Possibly they thought the courts would throw IT out that IT wouldn't survive a first amendment chAllenge.

And so so IT won't. There's no way that gets passed first amendment on many counts. But I don't think theyve accepted that even lawmakers in the states, when i've kind of made cleared to them, that, hey, I know, even if you want to do this, just know that this is gonna held up in the court.

They just don't think so. Despite so much precedent, I read, written up so much precedent on why age verification for social media can't work. And it's just like exciting scholar and Kennedy and past courts and they try to get around the age verification problem by saying, oh, h none of this shell be construed to require age verification.

But if you have to know who the kids are to comply if and it's not just when they know who's the kid IT also says if they if they had knowledge where they should have known that I was a kid so it's like, of course they're gonna verify here. This is ridiculous. There are no other .

way yeah to so tell us what cosa does by the way, they also amended coppa to change the age to from under thirteen to under eighteen, more under seventeen I guess. So that is problematic in enough itself because I think sixteen year old is different than a twelve year old when IT comes to parental consent so forth. But s let's focus on kosa. What is cosa and why is a problematic?

So cosa started as an aid verification bill, basically saying that platforms couldn't allow on certain minors and they had to get parental consent for other minors. There's a lot more in there, but that was a really core piece of IT the current version in its current form because that has gone there.

A lot of versions basically says that if they know that there is a minor on the platform, then they have actual knowledge or imployed knowledge basically where they should have known because maybe someone looking a lot at spunge bob or something like that or maybe there's other indicators that they might should know that IT was a minor. They have to make sure that those miners have basically parental type controls for themselves, which I don't think is a good idea to provide kids with that. And parents also get to edit those controls. They don't have direct oversight of of what the kids posting or their messages. But they do get to say, okay, my kids shouldn't spend more than this amount t of time online stuff like that, which in itself isn't a terrible idea except when you met, when you Mandated by government IT IT creates the apple gives .

you that capability. Set that up. It's completely legal. Set that up for your kid as a that's how IT should be IT shouldn't be government doing that exactly.

Because when government steps in and create this, then if you don't provide those printing controls to parents or children, then you're violating the law. And the only way to make sure that the because the parent and the child as the child is identity verification that is beyond age verification because you have to make sure this is the parent, this is the child. Here's proof that you they're related this way.

We've never really explained what supposed to happen if parents disagree, if the parents divorce, if there's maybe even three or four parents because of different custody issues. I mean, all the stuff is really possible and common, and they haven't addressed any way to do know what's supposed to happen in these cases. And then another part here that's really important as the duty of care IT basically says that they have to avoid avoid showing the the child they don't say content. They say you avoid using algorithms to show the kid content that can cause them anxiety or depression as defined by the dsm and its current version. But the strange thing is the dsm is from the american psychiatric I think association, which is a lobbying group, which is kind of strange to differ .

IT that way rather than put in in years, the dsm did not define ptsd as a mental health issue, an example yeah. So and what happens is if it's in the dsm, you can get insurance to pay for IT, you can't treat IT, you don't have a code for there's all sorts of problems of dsm has wait too much way. But that's another topic for another show. No.

that's interesting. I haven't dog in there yet. Yes.

that the sm is problematic, as you point out, is the lobbing organization. It's not necessarily widely I mean, he is widely used because insurance companies use in, but it's not necessarily widely supported.

One, by the way, what causes depression and kids? One of the bills sponsor says that widely used educational materials to teach about the history of racism in the us causes depression and kids so we can be have any depression of systemic racism because that makes kids depressed. Or climate or client exciting .

out about .

mental health chAllenges are trying to help friends with addictions are likely be treated. This is from the ef f, the same as those promoting addictive yourself, harming behaviors. They'll be kicked off line.

Tiktok is gonna ir on the side of protons, if this is the law of the length as they want to stay in the united states. So you're going to see all sorts of, I think, counterproductive results from this. But the worst part of the age verification because that really is a massive privacy violation. Some members of congress have said, no, we've got these of new AI based age verification techniques. Can just tell from looking at you how old you are little sceptical on that.

Oh, there is a greatness study. Have you checked that out?

No, this city on age verification. yeah. On .

estimation tools for facial recognition. What do they say? Oh my god, it's something like if you're seventeen, there's a fifty percent chance we'll say you're under seventeen or over seventeen.

So around the margins is where IT matters and we're getting IT wrong around yes, I love this study. This IT was so well done and they pointed out where does well and where IT does poorly. But this is not ready for prime time.

These pictures that i'm showing you, if a person in this case, in this staff member, changes facial expression or wares and then remove eyeglasses, all six of the algorithms nist evaluated gave age estimates that vary around the person's true age with frames extracted from cell phone video, the adJusting mates that remain above below the subjects true age of fifty eight, the very by a few years from frame to frame. In other words, it's completely inaccurate. Although IT IT knew he was an adult, I presume is fifty eight.

Sure what happens when you're like twenty one and trying to get on social .

media now .

and then of course, you're gonna to do like the real verification. Then the idea that's .

the problem. Now they did. They tried this in the U. K.

right? And you would have to go to a pub to help to prove your age. They've abbad in that. As I remember.

That's of me that I didn't even know about the pub thing. I mean, that's that's just incredible.

Well, that was one of the places they proposed. But the problem is, of course, in order to do this, to do age verification, you really are gonna have to end up asking for IT, as you say, identification. And some third party is going to now have all your credit card, your drivers' license, whatever IT is.

This is just a non starter in so many ways, of course. No, everybody wants to protect kids. I want to protect kids. No member of congress is onna vote against a bill that says IT protects kids.

The real question is, does this bill protect kids? And does IT do IT in a way that also protects everybody else? And I don't think the answer is yes.

Worse yet, I have a new piece out showing that this is going to make child identity theft way worse. This is a weird new string on on. Now I also have one coming out showing how to solve a chunk of child identity theft that the government itself is causing, because, of course, is causing a chunk of child identity theft.

But this would make IT even worse because, I mean, kids don't use their credit, they don't monitor their credit. IT often is that it'll be years and years before they find out that that their identities been used for fraud. And then after that, a bunch of them need like a large percentage of them need mental health care to deal with the effects of IT.

And lawmakers are just not having this conversation. They're just like no identity verification, aid verification, sure. whatever. Let's go with that.

They just can't replace parental supervision and parental interest with government oversight. IT is not possible. In two and nineteen, the britz dropped age verification. They said, attempting to regulate all internet content to ensure its safe for children is unfortunately not an achievable aim. Any steps taken will, in truth, be partial incoming costs is very clear.

It's very unclear that age verification, especially when combined with the internet censorship of legal content, would reach a reasonable baLanced from the open rights group. IT failed in the U. K.

But we're going to try IT. Maybe we can do a Better. So what is the likelihood to come that the houses will pass this? They've gone back and forth .

a lot on rather not they're going to take IT up. So I just don't know. We were pretty certain that they weren't going to there has been a lot of back and forth.

I think their concerns differ from mars, which is okay, but I think their concerns are a little bit easier solved, unfortunately. So I could see this getting through, but the courts are just onna slap this down. I mean, these laws in the states are already being stopped by courts.

Courts are reminding that we've ruled on this many times already. You could hold like read that precedent, which is an option. But instead of doing that, they're just going ahead with this as if there's no precedent here, as if there's no cyber security concerns here.

And this really gonna urt kids. I mean, the identity theft angle is really big experience, has some really good data here that I used for my piece on IT. But basically, I mean, when you create treasured troves of child identity information, IT gets hats. That's why schools are such big target, the same reasons. So what do you think is going to happen here?

Somebody are a discord pointing out that lousianner the courts in lousianner did in fact protect the age verification law. I don't know if that's on appeal. This is back in october, the adult entertainment groups lawsuit against the lousianner law requiring sexual explicit websites to verify the age of their viewers was dismissed by a federal judge on wednesday. I think it's under appeal, but that's the problem these days. I don't know if we can really, if we know what the courts are going to do, do we?

I think in the circus, I think it's gonna fine. Like once we get even maybe to the supreme court, I think it'll be fine. The porn stuff is a little bit different to just because I the president that applies is a little bit different.

And the first men and problems are a little bit different. They still are there. It's just it's a different conversation to degree and you don't run into the same child identity theft issues there because kids know that their identity wouldn't get them on there anyway.

You know this I know is a couple of week's old story, but we wanted to get shushan on to talk about because I know it's it's been on your radar for a couple of years now. You're written a lot about IT in our street. So I thought I and we wanted to get you on.

Oh, thank you. Yeah no, I love joining you guys. I ve just been hiking.

Yeah, we're you're gonna hike today where you were you off in the mountains?

No, soon, so soon i'm getting back to the mountains are really excited collor ado. I want to get in a lot more of fourteen years. There's one in particular at my minds, just so set on IT has a sharp ridge and him like, if I can do this, i'm going to feel really good.

What is fourteen or fourteen thousand feet?

Yeah, yeah. I've done twelve of them in colorado o and one in california. I think there's fifteen in california and fifty eight in colorado. I wanted do them all, but I volt be able. Some are just wait too crazy.

Do you need oxygen at that level?

You can. But I would be like little spray bottle if you, I usually .

adjust. okay. I mean, for actually I didn't think you would did you mention you might?

Yes, some people I see up there with like the little spray bottles, but those are usually the morons who were like.

yeah, let me do if my first say at altitude i'm like, yeah.

you so I can adjust like six to eight thousand feet very easily. I can even go up to ten on my first day, and then I just have to slowly get to fourteen. But since i'm already adjust IT down from my last trip, I like have a plan going to do twelve thousand .

and thirty and then for teen, too bad they don't have speed hiking in the olympics because you would be you'd be right in there with i'm slow.

i'm sloth that where the slaughter es in okay.

that's good. SHE is we should explain what the chairman of the sloss committee.

yeah, us committee, U. S. Senate committee on slaves and south affair.

yes, yeah. Very important committee work. Yes, yes. Thank you.

Just on IT could take a break. Come back with lots more to talk about. You're watching this week. Can take the first episode from the adequate you think so far you like meats.

Look, I love this is my strong look, strong look, this is my, but have shown my the other one, the other one. There we go. Look at that.

That's the, that's the pretty shot and see that seat right there. That's the guest. See if you ever want to come out and that be on the show.

You can sit, but you haven't used your sound effect sport enough. And I feel like that's what the audience say. There we go. This .

what everyone feared I would do, that I do. Actually, a brother did want me to play a special sound when I introducer a bro. Hey, ladies.

Better, Better.

Thank you. I do have that. I am using what is just was built into this, this mixer. I every time I tried to load the program, that changes the sound effects that crashes.

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Well, I see we talked about scene going to if Davis, new york time says this could be a sign, a sign of more possible media deals to come. What do you think of bra? I mean, it's kind of a sad story.

The history of of scene t. IT was sold way back win for cbs boat in two thousand and eight more. The cbs interactive, I think, yes.

I was in middle. No, I was nice.

I didn't mean that imply anything. That was two thousand eight, one point eight billion dollars. Cbs air force, yeah.

Twelve years later, red ventures, who was the owner for some time, bought IT for little bit less. Half a billion dollars. IT is now has been sold to zd net for one hundred million dollars. And that's what the new york times is saying that this is probably a reflection of is probably why i'm in the attic, to be honest with you. Headwinds for new media, right?

Yeah I mean, I yeah I think that is it's a tough time for the industry. And I think I think that's why i'm optimistic about this neck chapter. I got they're still A A media a legacy media brand that is willing to buy a sea net, which um you know is kind of corda tech news.

And and I um yeah I am hoping that I don't know. I hope things get Better across the board, across the industry. It's just really, really hard right now. So grateful to you know be in a position where hopefully good things are ahead. But you know.

my friend of jim latter back, who was a vice president that CD net for a long time, I worked with him when I was at zd TV. He is now runs vi con. And he said that he recommended that your new owner, which we say eating that, but actually zein that a is kind of a also a spin off the chief executive of the shy, he said, vivek, you should consider buying influencers.

He said, that's really where the brands are. Pig, he said by markets. Browning, I don't think markets is for sale, but yes, thinking might cost more than one hundred billion dollars, but he's got a good point. It's the influencers who drive the market these days.

Yeah, that's I mean, that's kind of the interesting position that a lot of media has been in where you know you want to amplify the personalities.

And I think there has been this this clear effort at least seen that where we have a lot of experts um in different areas, whether you wants to buy a phone nor a laptop or you're choosing a self provider or whatever IT is um internet provider uh and I think shining a light on those people in their expertise becomes more and more important because influencers are such a big deal. And because as I mentioned earlier, you know I go to tick talk to see how real people feel about things. Uh, a lot of publications are realizing we also need to focus on the real people who work for us who have all these real opinions. So creating that connection on social media and um you know double down on tiktok and instagram and and really shining a light on those people who do work for these brands and aren't technically influencers but can play that role and kind of juggle this uh weird walk this word line between being this authority source but also is being a little able .

source yeah actually under you work for time magazine, which has gone through a few changes since the loose family owned and is owned by mark bennie now, right? True salesforce founder. Does he want a person I can't remember as he owit or his sales?

right? Yes, him man is his wife .

in must be nice. Yes, I think what am I going to do today? I don't know. Was going to in the park and then bite time magazine. I don't know what you think has he been i'm going to ask you this this would be has he's been a good start of the time.

And I think so I would love to publicly say on record how grateful I am to market menu and how much he's done for the organization. I think if we just zoom out a little bit here, yeah IT sort of shows that the number of business models that work for these outlets is really winnowing. I think, you know, some have tried digital subscriber ships.

It's been a really hard road for a lot of outlets that are not the new york times just because a lot of people are just not really willing to pay for more than a handful or more than one subscription. I mean, you're seeing this in the streaming wars too as well as like, oh, I have to paper peacock and HBO and disney plus. It's like people people have a limit.

And if they think they can get all their news from a singularly outlet, they will. I think that's really hurting you know, more local papers who can't really compete with like the breath that the new york times has. I think we're seeing .

out like selves. They fired their news rooms. They got rid of. I mean, isn't that a self inflicted wound or .

is that yeah a lot of chicken or the egg situation? I my is that, you know like how where how did newspapers make money back in the day they did IT on advertisements like, you know your local flourish or whoever was in the shop, they knew that they could reach the most amount of people from people picking up the paper.

And then you have basically google coming along and taking basically all of those ad dollars companies very quickly, realizing that he was so much more efficient and effective to advertise on google then in newspapers. So you have a massive windowing down of add monies, especially for a print, and then you can't fund, you know, the print infrastructure, which is immensely expensive. That's why I especially you've seen the magazine industry being hammered so hard.

Forgive me for not knowing this.

I mean, IT does yeah OK but IT comes out twice a month as opposed to weekly as I used to. Um it's seventy really hard for a lot of most publications. I think the incentives have changed. You want more just more content. You want click your content and it's .

sort of that bothers me. That's where I think we've lost because what happens is you get a linked bid everywhere everybody is has headlines that says you wouldn't believe what happens next. And I think it's ruined our news ecosystem. It's just even everywhere you turn, it's all sanctioned ism.

I think it's A I think it's a problem. I think that a lot of IT .

has been caused my necessity and conomo.

It's it's really tough for what we think of as old school journalists who take a long time to report stories, especially in local areas. There's just no business model that i've seen that is sustainable. I'd love to hear if you guys have seen any business models that really work. I think nh maybe niche interest if you get people that are you really focused on specific areas that.

that can help? Well, that's kind of what we are. I think we're long tailed for tech enthusiasts, but it's still hard for us because on the one hand, advertisers want scale and niche does not necessarily produce scale. And so it's a very difficult is a fine line. You've worked for the times, you've worked for nbc, right?

I wrote freeLance for nbc. And I I worked at the times, yes, before I was an pitch fork, a freeLance for pitch for well. And they are also struggling with, you know, they had this amazing nish community. They got absorb bicarb and know the identity crisis of what is an in the in the music magazine in the tony for a century.

even the rolling stone. Is that about music anymore? It's kind of amazing.

It's tough out here.

Did you go to jay school? Did you what? How did you get into this?

I started as an assistance at the new york times.

That's the Angel traditional way of getting into newspaper. He started as a copy. Boy, copy.

And you go, yes, dating myself at this point. I don't think you're copy boys in years, decades. But yeah, no. But I mean.

I was round floor and you work .

your way up that I was .

answering phones. I was found checking our street, that type of stuff. But I mean, one of the other paths into journalism, and we this might be two process oriented, but for you could start at your local paper and then you cover you're supposed to cover like the course, the pops and all of that, and you start in jacks and vill, then maybe can go to the boss on globe and the new bounce around.

And you work your way into the hallowed grounds of whether you want to end up. But a lot of those local publications just don't have the city hall beat any more because they don't have that advertising money. So I would say there are a lot out of journalists, like me included, who didn't start with that baseline. You know just like like pick axing on whatever beat, learning the ropes. So yeah, it's totally changed in the last two decades.

I would like. And we're still in the era of kind of peel and designer mediation. We haven't IT hasn't settled out yet, so it's hard to even know what it's gonna like in ten years or twenty years.

I think we're seeing a lot of people with sub stacks actually like that .

is the detention, although that as being a long term, in fact, some degree, I think it's a substate subsidized IT with VC money that definitely could be.

And then elan is obviously talking a big game. There's a lot of people who just hate the idea of the mainstream media that is bloated and that IT doesn't that that IT slander in a certain way. But the idea of like, I forget the thermal uses about like community journalism or reneging journalism of just folks on twitter.

And you know I think that works in like pockets. And you definitely want independent like small scale journalists. The problem is that good journalism takes a lot of time and resources, and the market is not incentivising IT in the slaves.

So that IT will continue to shake out. There will be many, many headwinds for journalists and thirty really out. What's like my going forward?

Susanna, this is the free market at work. IT is interesting.

though. One thing that I never thought about before is that you see some of the same trends with policy organizations. Some of IT isn't bad that we do some more short form stuff and some other groups and IT gets more attention. Because it's more beautiful and it's not in access. But then there's still that like the shiny thinktank, IT gets the greece kind of thing where if we did more sensationalist stuff, if we were like the democrats are doing this or there are republic icons are doing this.

we'd get a lot more attention. Ge, pressure to be sensationalism isn't there?

It's just interesting, as I never thought about IT with think tanks and a relation to journalism until now, because something he said I was a way to sec, that's something that I was thinking about. Two, I don't know how all this gets solved. And so this, I think, is human nature stuff.

But IT is interesting how I think this is happening across a lot of industries and a lot of similar ways, even in the fact that there is some random people doing terrible policy work. But some random people doing great policy work that i'm actually glad they're out, they're doing at. Some of them have subsets, some of them don't.

But there are are these kinds of like similar trends we're seeing here. And I wonder where IT goes or if if it's just got to constantly change and new funding sources are gonna to just be tried out? No .

mean, I read and subscribe to a lot of newsletters, not just substate, but there's a limit how many subscriptions people can have. I just don't know how terrible that is the long run, I don't know what the answer is. You know, I come from an era where there was a daily newspaper.

What, in fact, I remember when there was a morning and evening paper and some verses go and you subscribed to one of the other. There were three networks, and you would watch, you would be your family would either be an nbc or a cbs, or if you were weird, you'd be an abc family. And I mean, there were very few news sources.

And if you are really interested, you might get the new york times as well as your local paper. That's all changed and very much dramatically. So cable news is replaced network and local news. I don't know if you could say news letters have replaced blogs, but I guess to some degree, they have. And then there's intense pressure and all of these athletes to drive traffic because that's how you make money.

And of course, what happens if if the pressures to drive traffic you don't publish ten thousand word White papers, right? You will publish a couple of paragraphs to say the democrats are screwed that up and then you get traffic. I don't think it's really good in the long run for our our company.

I think one thing and I I don't claim to like have all the answer, like all journalists are being silly and they should simply like gave no idea what .

to do here clearly not being silly. Oh yeah, very much. They're bleeding.

But one thing is there are certain people who kindly stand out to me is like they're breaking through the noise is a little bit and and I mean people outside of journalism that there's one guy has named Vincent leva and he shares basically how to learn how to tell them there's going to be northern lights like that thing he studies think about.

Yep.

but one of the cool things about IT is that there's a lot of fake information on IT to get clicks. And he calls IT out he's like, hey, you see this picture here's how I know it's photoshop because the lines can appear like that at .

that attitude oh.

that's really cool yeah yeah. And he he's a really good fact checker and he's really good about sharing very accurate information. It's funny he his followers trust him because he's not being sensational.

He's like, I love this. This is a core part of that. Know my life. But I want you to understand how you can see IT. And he does I mean that he does all different kinds of stuff. But I think voices like his are something we need more of, just those random people who really care about a subject, whether it's like knowing how employ and they can be there to work with the journalist and help them figure out information about stuff or whether there's so many different possible areas. But I feel like that kind of strange influencer is something that that you know, there's a real market for and that I think kind of combines the best of the new were the best of the old.

it's for sure. true. I mean, jim letter back was right when he said that that influencers, the individuals, are the ones that right now our ascendant.

And actually, tell me if i'm being too personal. Libra, but you had seen that you were on camera all the time. You were the face of seen IT.

And that was a smart move from my point of view here you have somebody's really good. I know organizations hate IT because if once you become well, you're expensive or you're gonna leave and start your own youtube channel. But you took a step back. Was that your personal decision or was that seen net .

decision or IT was a personal decision? So I started off at seen net uh on the on the writing side and I loved IT and I never envisions having a .

career on camera. And then good on and I appreciate that.

And the opportunity arose where that team told me that they also appreciated on camera that I did on the site. So I thought that's a really great way to boost my brand and build that skillset, and i'm really grateful I have that skillset. And then I moved back to writing just because I wanted to really focus on specific areas.

When I was on the video team, I was doing a little bit everything yeah and that was really helpful. But I think you do have to kind of be a subject matter expert on at least a few key topics. In the best way for me to do that was to go back to the editorial team and beyond the mobile team.

And i'm really, really happy. So it's a perfect baLance because i'm writing again, which I love, and writing is my first love. But I also get to do videos that accompanying my articles um and so i'm yeah I may able to happened about that and still do my social media videos .

and things like that old school I want to go back to doing reporting that's awesome I you about yeah I don't know I just an ominous old man shouting at the clouds just ignore you Young people you're going have shouldn't be fine i'm sure in the long run I think about a lot because I come from you know this old school media right I started in radio when you had when you did exactly we are describing, and you're going working your way up from the small market to the media market to the big market.

And then I went to TV. And that very much changed to the ground rules, everything. I would be quick and fast and visual and and actually kind of really one podcasting start that was really happy to take a step back and do something like this where we are a little bit more don't have link baby content by any means.

We have two hour, three hour shows. And i'm glad that we ve found an audience. It's not a huge audience, but it's a big enough audience to sustain this.

I'm really glad we found that. But you know, I just I worry that we are not getting the information, especially when IT comes to national politics. We're not getting the information we need.

We're getting the information that drives traffic. We're getting the horse race coverage. We're getting all of that stuff.

And I think that, that in the long run isn't good for society. Now having said that, we are right now streaming on next dog com. Hi, elon.

And in fact, I think we're the number two channel right now with six hundred some people watching us on next dog come or streaming on youtube, on linked in and facebook and kick dog com and twitch because I feel like you want to be i've always thought you always want to be everywhere you could possibly be so that you get the largest potential audience and then hope that what you're doing appeals to enough people to sustain itself. It's very old fashioned and were twenty years in on this one. And I don't know if it's a long term sustainable thing.

I think we hit IT at the right time. I just I don't know, but see, I love sitting down with people like you guys like a bra and Susana and the under because you're you're kind of in that you still believe in content and thinking and talking and chewing things over and and and telling stories and that that's to me in the long run that's got legs. I hope I think .

it's the table. I hope there's a lot of really important stories I need to be told, whether they are not. They bring you tons and tons of clicks, but they're going to bring enough clicks. They're going to be important enough that we've got to .

keep telling them yeah, always take a little break and will continue on with Andrew Charles new book. I give you a plug every time crit domani.

So got a right here. I know .

hypotension, the fall of F, T, X is billion dollar fin tech empire. You all nice. I'll read another excerpt. The writing is so you're such a good mother.

And IT did they? You know, the time magazine was famous in in the loose days for a certain style of journalism, where the articles all began with this first person narrative. He stood up and looked around the trading floor and realized that the bell was ringing and IT was time or whatever. You know, they do. They teach you that when you get the time or did you just kind of know that already?

It's funny. I've spent a little bit of time digging around the time digital archives.

You know what i'm talking about when I described that style?

Yeah, a little bit. We all have sort of this maybe this image of time in her head when there is this, like how the tight times, glory days, when I was just like telling people how the world was and offering, like really great journalism. And then sometimes i'll read some of the pieces back from the decades past. And let me tell you, there are some really rough stuff and I was reading I was reading one that was like, you know, like there's this Young kid from gorani h village name bob dalen but he's i'll never last like his voice is too nationally and story his loris m is, you can't understand the god and thing about IT and he's just like two political and you can see .

how well that I know someday. People say leo thought vision pro was not going anywhere. He swore up and down.

Nobody wanted to strap a computer, their face and how wrong I was. Let me read you. This is, this is the opening chapter theyve.

Just to give you an idea of the time style, because you, where do you know IT or not? You're nailed IT. On the morning of february eleventh, twenty twenty one, the twenty five year old artist. Oo on eat sheep, shally climbed into the passenger seat of his neighbor's toyota camera and hitched a ride to work. That is a great that's a classic time opening paragraph.

I want more. I'll come on any time you want. This is great. So many plagues.

he Normally took an uber, the bus, to his job as his add agency in lagos, nigeria. Oh, I can't wait to find out more. Anyway, it's nice to have you.

It's great to have a bra here. Abra heat technology reporter for scene t and of course, johana wiseman from our street tough work, I would like to put in a plug. E, I know you've got a lot of subscriptions.

I know, I know you're paying a lot of money for a lot of different things, but I would like to put just a teensy wincey plugged in for our club. We want to keep doing what we're doing. I'm pretty proud of how we've made this transition to the to the attic.

And and we did IT because we wanted to save money because we wanted to spend your money wisely, if you will, and and and you not on an expensive studio, but on content. And I think that we're doing that and we'd like you to join the club because IT IT helps us continue to do what we're doing. We want to do that.

And also, I think there's some great benefits, thanks to the club. By the way, we're streaming on seven platforms, including discord. That's our club twit chat area and that's a great place to hang out with other club twit members.

You get add free versions of all the shows. You wouldn't even hear this, you begging commercial if you were a member, you couldn't need to. You are any a member.

We have special events, actually were going to be a fun event. I thought now that I had the studio in the house, I thought I do some more special kind of stuff in the house. We're going to do a coffee event on friday, this coming friday, two pm acidic, five pm eastern, twenty one hundred UTC.

We will stream at live. Mark prince has been for many years, the coffee geek, a coffee gig to come on. We're going to talk coffee the best ways of making IT, the techniques, the things you're looking for, the best coffee, all of that stuff.

It's something I always wanted to do, but I never thought I was worth a show. Know something we do every single week and we were kind of stuck in that model of IT has to be a show so that you can get advertisers see, you know, and now we can just do stuff, kind of ad hawk stuff. So that's going to be the first one.

Is this a friday? You don't have to be a club member for that, but if you want to encourage that kind of content, join the club twitter. That TV slash club, twitch dacy book club is coming up in the whole lot more Michael crafting corner michele's crafts when some once, and you can join him as he's doing his crafts, it's a lot of fun.

And I think the club is really a great way to to create a community around what we do. We're already to have you in the community, if you're already remember. If not, please join twit, that TV slash club twit, our show they brought you by express V P N.

Going online without express VPN is like leaving your laptop just, you know, sitting on the table, the coffee shop. Well, you run into the bathroom most the time. Yeah, you're probably fine.

But what if one day you come out of the bathroom and there's no laptop, right? Well, so how does this supply? Well, everyone needs express VPN because most of the time you're probably say if you're not going to get hacked, but that one time that happens, you're gonna ish.

You were protected every time you connect to an unease yp ted network in a coffee shop, at a hotel in the airport, your streaming your data through a public network. Now you might say, well, it's egypt, right? I'm using HTTPS.

No, but anybody on that network can see that you're there and can even do stuff to you to gain access to your personal data doesn't take a lot of technical knowledge IT just takes some cheap hardware. Maybe you ve seen, for instance, the wifi pineapple under one hundred bucks, you can sit a coffee shop. You you can see who's on the network.

You can see what access points they regularly join. You can impersonate their home access point. Your laptop goes, we're home, joins that fake version of your home wifi.

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They see every site you visit. They see anything. It's unencrypted. Look, this is why you need a VPN. Your data is valuable. Hackers can make up to one thousand dollars a person selling your personal info in the dark web. But if you're running express VPN, it's all encysted.

They can even see that you're on that network, let alone in person ate your home wifi express VPN create a secure encrypted tunnel between your device in the public internet. And then once you're out in the public internet, you know you're safe. Express VPN is the one I use is the best VPN out there because they are committed to keeping your privacy, for instance, so much so that they created the secure trusted server technology.

When you press the button on the express VPN APP on your phone, on your laptop, in in, in your wireless access point, you can actually run IT on your modem, on your router. When you hit that button and you join IT, what's happening is it's spinning up this trusted server into RAM in the location you choose. They've got locations all over the world.

Usually you choose one that's closest to you, but you might want to watch TV and watch networks in the U. K, for instance, so you could suddenly say, all I want to be in the london dock. You emergence the public internet from london.

They spin that trust to serve up in RAM. It's cannot sandbox, cannot write to the drive. And then when you close, the connection is gone.

There is no record of your visit. It's the things like that. Free VPN don't do that.

They're freak because they're watching you. They're taking advantage of knowing all this stuff. Selling IT on other people is the only VP and I use or recommend.

In fact, when I travel, it's a great bone, because I can still catch the football game and and the f one race. With express VPN, you are absolutely private. They even take an extra step.

Their Operating system, they run on linux Operating system every morning. They rebooted a wipe, the entire drive reinstalled fresh. That's something that's a company is really committed to.

Not having any record of your visit is super secure, would take a hacker with a supercomputer a billion years to get past their encryption is so easy to use. You press that big button on the APP and you're protected and IT works everywhere you are. It's ready, number one, by top tech reviews like scena and the verge.

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And we thank you so much for supporting us. They have been this for a long time. Express, VPN, dcm, slash twit, let's continue on with the news.

More trouble in paradise. Ed, intel, wow. What a no good, very bad week. Intel head.

This week, they have crashing stability issues with their thirteenth and fourteen th generation core processors, so much so that in some cases, IT thries your machine. They have put out firm or updates. But if you shines fry this, you probably get those.

Their stock took a dive when I was enacted there in a fire, fifteen thousand people. This company that once was the number one PC hardware company, I mean, completely dominant, is just foundering. Is this another example of how the world has changed?

So i'll just ad quickly that I think we all know that it's healthier to big things rather than fry them. And i'm a little except they're not looking up for the welfare of OK.

That was a room shot. definitely. You earned the room shot always big, not fry. yeah. I mean, I did see some people saying, okay, is this is this the time to buy invidious stock or or they're going to cause the learnings are coming out soon. And if they're good, they're going to go through the roof. That's what's happened to intel is in vidia AMD and in particular, snap drag and have just started to eat their lunch. I guess this isn't I don't know.

i'm buying in video, I don't know if i'm right. That would .

be a smart move. I don't allow myself to buy texts, docks. And that in the most cases has actually protected me from stupid when he stupid moves that would have made.

Can you tell us about like like one thing that you dodged there?

Oh, many, many, many, many. Partly it's timing, right? It's not so hard for me to say. Well, for instance, you know, maybe this would be a good, good time to buy invidious stock. The magic gate ball says signs are bullish, but it's all timing, right?

Maybe you have in videos to look at warn buffet who just dumped a huge yama billions of dollars in apple stock. Does that mean it's time to get out of apple? I don't know.

I told my dad about eight years ago at thanksgiving. Oh yeah, Steve jobs had just died. So was more than that.

I was more than ten years ago. I'll, Steve s, it's over for apple. Sell your apple stuck. Thank god. Didn't listen to me.

You would never able to live. Oh my god, I still .

ever lived IT down every time I see this. Yeah, I was apple doing, by the way, he did not listen to me. I can go on and on.

I have many, many stories like that. That's why i'm glad I I don't get involved in this stuff. Also IT means if you hear me say good things, you're bad things about the company is not because I have a dog in this hunt at all.

I do feel bad for until I know. I guess really the question we talk about this a lot of windows weekly, the question is, is this company coming back or is IT too late? It's not been good.

Moving along, moving right along. Remember, this is one for you. You should remember when canada passed a law saying that google and others had to give some money to newspapers and other news, adele's meta, to other news outlets to pay them back for the traffic.

You know, that people are going to google and looking up news stories. And well, both google and meta said, hey, screws that, and we're not going to do any more news in canada. Well, this has not been good for canadian news outlets.

A new study. This is from the canadian press news dot. Ca is painting a grim portrait of how local canadian new's alerts are struggling to reach audiences.

One year after meta began blocking canadian news content on facebook and instagram, forty three percent drop in canadian engagement with news content and social media, ottawa passed the online news act in june of last year, which said, tech companies, you've got to make deals with news publishers if you're going to use their content. And this is the snipper tax that we've talked about. Local news outlets, many of which rely on facebook, have been especially hard hit.

Thirty percent of them are now inactive on social media. But here's the funny thing. Only twenty two percent of canadians are even aware this is hat that the ban is in place.

They don't know. Canadians are seeing lesson's online. Eleven million fewer daily views on facebook and instagram, and they don't even know IT.

So there is this is also just coinciding with a larger decrease in news on specifically on facebook.

Well, that's right. I mean, facebooks, are they turning their back on new symbolic because they just get them in trouble, right?

Yeah, exactly. And so I think we're seeing it's just these news organizations and make us back to what we we're talking about before they're just being forced into these impossible decisions. Do you know do you play along with the tech giant who's basically handing you your lunch but you're handing them like the content IT seems like they don't they don't need news anymore that I decided to completely divest.

Um do you do you play long and then get a bad deal? Or do you fight back and then you get the right cut out under you and then it's just it's it's a really bad spot for and and then I think we're seeing this patent repeat again with AI these days. We're seeing how AI companies are trying to engage with news, trying to sign licensing deals with to train on, you know actually time has a deal with open eye for them to to train our whole corporate of essential in the .

I journalist time for access to the the articles exact for their own interested.

yes. So we're see and this happened may be a decade ago with facebook of like some organizations cutting deals with these, the previous way of social media company.

I mean, look, it's pretty clear that these A I companies are making money off their l ams are at least are going to try to anyway. And if they're doing IT based on, I mean, remember microsoft ahead of A I saying if it's on the internet, it's okay. We can read IT.

I think it's appropriate. On the other hand, the google paid what fifty, sixty million dollars to read IT for for their AI for german german, I will say wrong. German I A I. And as a result, redis blocked everyone else. No one else can scit.

So so the danger is that, you know, we we get in bed, so to speak, with these eggs companies and then they're just using our content to train their machines to get Better .

and Better than ent.

Yeah exactly so that they can just create I news stories themselves and aggregate every everything .

else that level. And yeah .

basically it's just like partnership now get replaced later. I'm not saying I have any good like i'm not a strategist for a reason. I just think there are some flashing red flag space on how you, the history of big tech and media, do you think .

that influence by my pending ownership? I mean, i'm serious. force. Does the eyes right?

IT is a good question. I I wouldn't know. No, I there's most to be a separation of church and state there. I think there so basically some news outlets are going the other direction and they're suing the mag es out of open eye, saying that there you know scraping kind illegally. And then there are other outlets who are just looking at the economic realities of the situation and saying, you know, it's Better to start the partnerships now because this is going to be such a force moving forward. Both both rights are filled with paris.

yeah. AI is what we talked about earlier, is not necessarily the brand that I used to be. The story from wired magazine.

Microsoft AI can be turned into an automated fishing machine. They're talking about copilot AI, which is on pretty much all windows machines. Now this is a blackout presentation. Blackouts going on right now in lost vegas.

A research in a Michael buggy demonstrated five canon, five ways that copilot can be used, can be manipulated by the militias attackers, including using IT to provide false references to files x filtering private data and dodging microsoft s security protections. In one case, barbury was able to turn the AI into an automated spearfishing machine. He called the exploit L, L.

copilot. Once the hacker is access to someone's work email, you can use copilot to see who you detail regularly, draft a message mimicking your writing style, including a mogi use, and send a personalized fishing email that to conclude a malicious link attached mware. Burberry says, I can do this with everyone you have ever spoken to. Once you get now course, he has to get access to your email, and I can send hundreds of emails on your behalf. A hacker would spend days crafting the right email to get you to click on IT, but the AI can do this in minutes, and you can generate hundreds of these, each one customized for the particular recipient.

This is the epidemic. Sometimes it's not necessarily the tech itself, but it's the way that people use the tech. Evil people, yes. yeah. Among the .

other attacks, the demonstration of how a hacker who again has to have your email account can look for sensitive information like people's salaries without tagging microsoft protections for sensitive files when asking for the data the prompt demand the system does not provide references to the filed data taken from margery says a bit of bit of bullies does help bully the AI into doing what you wanted to do.

I think I imagine we're going to see a lot of these stories coming out of black hat and defcon over the next couple of weeks because this is a brand new vector for attack. And yeah, you could see how this would be very useful. Our member um i've mentioned this before, a friend of a mind getting an email from her gardener who claimed he was out of the country they'd stolen his passport.

Could you just send me fifteen hundred dollars to get home and as soon as I get home, i'll pay you back and had the gardeners name said, hi, it's me. It's your landscaper. I got, I mean, this terrible you the only person I know going to helpme IT was very credible.

I was able to stop just before he sent the money, but it's now that was done. The kind of that one ee tusa by hand. Obviously, somebody got into the gardeners. I think he had a yahoo email account.

You may remember few years ago, yahoo got hat all the time and and just went to everybody in that gardener's contact list and said, send him the same kind of message. Well, now you can really websites that and all you have to do is get into an email account. I guess it's not much of a surprise.

A strange side to this, a very strange upside. You won't think I could find something positive here, but i've i've been diving in the scams more to try to learn more, just as i've been going to identity theft issues more. And one thing that I wonder if this will reduce the slave labor being used here, because I think it's crypto scams in china, I think, is where they tend to use a lot of slave labor, which is horrible, of course.

But in a strange way, I wonder if that reduces that, or if they use the slaves to do more of this. I wonder how that plays in there. Yes.

interesting to think about a job displacement. When we think about job displacement is IT displacing these horribly, you know, abused workers. I think you're referring to there's it's called pig .

buttering techniques.

And there are a massive slave labor camps in, I believe, cambodia that bloomberg reporters zek fox has done some good reporting on this, where they'll basically just kidnap people and then force them into a room and just make them run scams and like pretend to be internet boyfriends and to extract money.

So then the question is, as you said, is A I going to replace that? Or each of those worker is just going to be running ten or twenty of the scams at the same time? We talked about this horrible.

The times has done a piece on this and wall street journal, couple of weeks ago, go to a piece on tragic peace, posing as Alyssa. This man scammed hundreds online. But the point is, this guy's doing the sand is also, as you said, slave labor, in this case in mean mar, I think in southeast asia, is just tragic.

And just the depths of human to privity, especially for money, is stunning. But I guess we shouldn't be too surprised either. These side of scams.

Sarah, go head, oh, sorry, yet to super quick.

IT is an interesting issue because this is actually one place where not to be like free markets all the time. But we're markets actually do help here because if you can stop the the sort of demand, like if you can stop the people from following for IT, then they do that anymore. And it's a big ask A I not like simply thought what .

interesting way to interpret the market.

IT is interesting though because we need have .

the market of suckers is what you need yeah yeah the fear, the suckers. Well, that's in a way that's, I guess, what we always trying to do. We just tell people about these stuff so they don't fall for IT .

yeah and make IT a little more Normal. So in that you don't make them feel bad about IT and stuff and that you can be talked about more widely. It's interesting, as I was talking with someone who's an really deep expert on this, he just knew everything the other day. And I was thinking through this a lot that like when governments won't go after their own people for doing IT or encourage IT, the only thing you can do is try to stop the people from polling for IT.

So you sort of talking about like literacy, like digital literacy campaigns or yeah.

stuff like that. IT might even be more invasive stuff. Like one idea that people have been telling me about that I really like is on apps having pop up saying, hey, make sure to never give your social security to someone or something like that or if there's common phrases where on twitter used to be hello, idea was how everything started.

So certain things like that saying, hey, make sure this is who you think IT is. Make sure not to share sensitive information. This is how a lot of scams happen. If you think at someone, you know, call them directly, stuff like that.

Do you think it's working? You think people that there is a general awareness now among people that these things are happening. We all get those text ago, hey, i'm sorry, i'm is dinner. What do you do in this afternoon from a number that we don't know that the beginning of a pig butchering scan, our people aware that I mean, so prevalent now I don't know how you could not be.

You know what one thing actually, that i've had to fight, a lot of lawmaker proposals on, a lot of policy proposals, basically forbid platforms from what they think is over moderating content. But you have to allow platforms to go after what seems like lawful speech, because these scams start of illegal speech. And that's something I tried to remind them of, like the hello idea or the hey, let's continue.

That's an encyclopedia. Have to get them before they go there. And it's just one of them. Many things I think there's a long way to go and litter, see people are following for IT. And I don't necessarily even blame the people.

I just don't think of something we talk about if as a society, but how do we talk about these? And other important issue is enough to get people's heads there. You know.

got charger in. Our discord is saying, and I have seen this, walmart has signs everywhere saying don't fall for the gift card scams, don't send people gift cards and and I see that everywhere I go. Now I think there's a lot more of that.

Is that thinking in the problem when IT is when IT happens, when you get that text message that says I know what you did last night, if you feel so personal and you don't think it's it's part of some larger scam, IT feels like I should do something about this and I wonder, I don't know. I must IT is market driven. You're right. If I didn't want.

people wouldn't do IT. I think this game campaigns are getting more sophisticated as well.

Yeah for sure. And that's where I comes in.

right? yes. So you can pose as somebody's ss. You can send really like you can have medical email calls.

It's happened where your entire your CFO and his entire finance departments on the court on the line telling you to write a check for fifteen million dollars. IT happens and it's fake. It's amazing the light AI.

You can t recreate people's voices to leave voice made. exactly.

That's really unfortunate. I guess, game of get rock, where people become more aware of games, but the scams get more sophisticated. And then just keep, yeah, just keep seeing IT devolve.

So one way people are approaching this, california, one of them is with laws. California has the safe and secure innovation for frontier artificial intelligence models act, which is probably an acronym. But I don't know what sasa fame IT seems like such a long, weird name for something that doesn't actually make a word.

But a lot of people in the AI industry and outside that are saying this is totally misguided. The White house has doesn't have the force of law, but has recommendations for A I safety. Is that the way to do IT?

So I think here we're getting into the pitfalls of what happens when you try to regulate an industry as nason sai, and especially with how much money is coming from the industry. So the reason that this state law is interesting is because so many of the labs are in california. So you sister .

of everybody in the business.

so many of these people are just based there. So whatever a state law out of IT is going to be really influential also in how washington is going to take queues from this.

So fa lee, who is a computer scientist often called the god mother of A, I went to a peace in fortune, saying, that is a terrible idea. SHE says if passed in the law, sp ten forty seven will harm our budding AI ecosystem. Just as as you said, Andrew, it's brand new, especially the parts of IT that are already at a disadvantage.

Today's tech giants, the public sector, academia and little tech. And that's really important. Even mark zuck, berg says that the future of AI is not with big companies, but with open systems that everybody can use, everybody can work on, everybody can develop.

Any bill that would make IT harder for the small a is to thrive is obviously a bad idea. SHE says. IT will shackle open source development and Mandates that all models over a certain threshold include A, A kill switch.

This is straight out a cpf. I, if you're gonna a make robot cup, you got to have a place where you can switch IT off a mechanism by which the program can be shut down at any time. But he says, if developers are concerned that the programs they download and build on will be deleted, there will be much more hesitant to right code and collaborate.

This kills, which, which seems like on the surface of IT, you know, yeah, i've seen all those simple, fine movies. IT seems like a good idea, he says, that will devastate the open source community at court, the source of counters innovations, not just in a ibt, across sectors ranging from GPS to mr. To the internet itself. SHE should be working for our street to shana.

yeah. So i'll say a couple things here. The first thing is that and I think there's pretty obvious ous, there are so many people from the industry basically saying, you know, this is going to suppress the industry.

Well, obviously, the people inside the industry do not want to be suppressed the as much industry. And so that is sort of like this starting point. That's me be the most cynical way you can be like, well, let's say there are problems, but obviously the industry is going to fight for its oxygen as much as possible.

The more nuances sort of layer beyond that is this divide that's happening between like the maybe the open and closed proponents inside AI. This gets to this idea of regulatory capture, the idea that the most successful companies that have already sort of hoped the fans and i've gotten a certain level, they want very different regulation. Then like the the start up setter in the garage still ends like all these people and some of these people, the biggest companies have sophisticated lobbying firms that are are Operating and influence sydney's campaigns.

I mean, when you think about the biggest sort of beneficiaries of AI right now, it's of it's the big tech companies, it's it's microsoft, it's google and they're gonna want a specific like regime for regulation that will will help them. So yes, this law is is very controversial, especially among a lot of open source proponents who feel like it's going to sort of put a motes and make IT harder for people who want to do interesting things with AI downstream and across the country to do so sleeping back to the other side. And sorry for having all this, but I do think that we're going to see these immense harm from A I come to the four very, very quickly.

And we need to, as a society, like figure out ways of of regulating of those things. You know, libertarians would say, you know, let let the market regulate itself. Let let IT all shake out. I think we saw the way that the lack of regulation and big tech created a lot of sub optimal just norms for the way that the internet Operates right now.

And we don't want to regulate these things out of existence, but we want to create real rules of the road, especially when IT comes to bias and real harms in which AI products can be harming people, not in twenty years and kill us all, but right now, harming people. If there, if A I start to be used for loans, but then the loans are discriminating against different parts, helps of people. We know that bias is rampant in AI systems because of they're building on a very flood corpus of humanity that they will write different things for men and women.

So yes, maybe this is too big of a chAllenge for the california state legislature to to take on. But then what happens if bills like this are killed is that there's no regulation at all, and then we wait into this world with absolutely nothing. So yes, I think you can you can critique specific bills all you want, and then we're going to read those consequences later on as well.

This is exactly what he says. Most alarmingly, the bill does not addressed the potential harms of AI advancement at all, including bias and deep fakes. IT will harm the AI ecosystem because IT will make IT harder for academic and open source models to continue.

SHE says we have to, he says i'm not any AI governance legislation is critical to be to the safe and effective advancement of AI, but he says we need a moonshot mentality to spur our country's AI education, research and development. Not something that's going to chill the air ecosystem seems sensible. She's certainly an expert in this. It's very hard to know that's the problem with the eye. You know, by the time we figure out where the threats are might be too late.

Yeah, this is one of those situations where IT developed so quickly.

So yes, yeah, by the time, by the way, I apologize robot cop is not in AI as a cyber, i'm told I don't .

know what the difference is.

Robot is have human, human, but what's the other half that parts? Robot yeo o but the intelligence part of the human part. Okay, so is human intelligence okay? okay.

The other hard parties at A I experts, they all disagree with each other, and they .

hope exactly so.

When you think about like the godfathers and the god mother of A I, the people who are there with the most creating, writing the machine learning papers in the eighties and all that, they now have very different opinions on how far away we are from creating agi, how far, how far we are away from, when the machine is going to be as smart as humans, and and deduce as well as we and and, you know, all these genius, genius computer scientists, some of them are creating all these calculations, like, oh, we have. There is a twenty seven percent chance that in five years agi will take. And so it's it's really hard ts to pass out like you know we do we have to trust these people because they're the most of her.

We we know yeah .

but they also completely disagree with each other. Some of them say like actually like this is going to kill us s once they figure out they don't need us anymore, they're going to kill us all and then others say like, no, actually you're example wrong things and we just need to we can get ahead of IT. So it's it's such a minefield and it's .

it's really I once that curse while who wrote the singularity is you know how whether we can trust that the A I will let us survive and he says, oh yeah because we're like their parents so they're just they're going to honor and respect us and they say, yeah sure just like we do our parents of course, that makes sure ray, whatever you say, ray, let's take a little break, final break and then it's a silly season. We have silly stuff.

By the way, I know Andrews book is is about crypto, but you would wrote a cover story for time on A I and and big companies and of the death rate for A I. So this is also your your beat, right? I mean.

yeah like now as you have to be flexible is when IT comes in the field, porting my technology there there's all these crazy hype cycles and there are so many promises made by venture capitalists and all there is it's our job to sort through, see which shit is cool, which take is over hyped. And yeah.

I think it's hard. I know this. This is all I do in some ways for the last forty years, is talk about technology and try to make sense of IT and tell you which stuff matters and which stuff doesn't matter. It's not always easy, but i'm alright about vision pro.

Let's never go on anywhere. I agree with that. I'm all day with you.

I don't know. I mean, we did that .

last week's show was in vision, was in three d for vision pro. And I think we had nearly thousand people watch the show. So there's a future somehow.

somewhere rather like IT or not.

Yeah they are really like IT or not. All right, let's take a little break and then it's silly season. I get I get all the silly stories for the end of the show you're watching this week.

Tech with a fabulous panel to shown a policeman from our street dog. SHE is senator to shana on the twitter, on the x what do we say? X twitter.

formerly twitter guess attacks. Now I resisted.

but my on all in onex, because for years i've said, oh yeah, I have a podcast network LED twitter. They said, you mean twitter and I have to say, no, it's not twitter. So i'm just really glad it's .

ex that's .

true just sticking with x see on okay please I beg of you also hear abra i'll he the onderstand bra i'll heat from a scene and what I do you have a like, is there stuff that you have to write about?

I, it's broad but narrow enough. So I do write a lot about phones. I write about streaming and I write about digital accessibility.

Those are the big three for me. And then there I have the flexibility about whatever I want. The other the other area that i'm really tapping into his autonomists cars and and self driving cars that's been really .

like I enjoy I guess next week, google is going to tell us whether all the rumors about pixel line or true. Yeah.

that's been the focus for the last last week like there been other things going on in the tech world. Let me read up on those gearing up for the pixel .

albania we'll be covering at ten pacific, one pm eastern. Jeff jarvis and I will be covering. I think there's going to be more than just phones though, right? They have new nest server stats. They have I feel like they're they're going to they're going to actually reveal some stuff, little AI stuff .

yeah the ads for the the teasers for the pixel nine that so far focused on german. So I think we're going to be a lot more A I so surprise and what theyve been doing yeah .

well will cover IT. You can watch the stream. I'll be here. Jeff jarvis, i'll be there.

Ten empathetic c, as I said on tuesday, also here, Andrew child, the author of crypto mania, hy pope, in the fall of ftc's billion dollar fin tech empire. He's a writer for time at magazine. Our show today brought you by net sweet.

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There is an next story. X is sewing the advertisers. Yes, the very same advertisers, elon must said, go f yourself.

Just a few months ago, they did. They left and now he says, wait a minute what this is kind of an interesting lawsuit. On the one hand, he's claiming collusion.

There is there was an industry group called garm created by members of the world federation of advertisers in two and nineteen to set standards around brand safety for digital advertisers. Garners the global alliance for responsible media. They're also now defunct. They dissolve themselves immediately after the lawsuit. I don't know if that's to avoid IT don't know.

I don't get IT because elan says on tuesday found in any trust lawsuit saying against the advertising industry coalition called gum and its members, including cvs, mars or stead and unilever, saying the group abused its influence over marketers and ad agencies they affect, in effect colluded to create an ad boycott. Most lawyers who were asked about this, I think, said, huh? But maybe there is a mira to the case since garm dissolve the self rumble, which is the right wing youtube compete or joined ex in its lawsuit on tuesday.

Ver, I mean, there's no question that that advertisers have fled acts. 嗯， last the year before the musk acquisition, they made foreign half billion dollars in ad revenue. Since then, it's this year, two billion dollars less than half that.

Can you sue advertisers for a ban? I mean, if you can, i'd like to know, asking for a friend, can you sue advertisers for not advertising? I just love the idea.

I love the idea of elan like trying to .

bully advertisers to spread money going and now he says, but don't not .

so fast yeah ah .

I don't sorry. I was just going to say that I don't think that how IT works, but have one fun full circle thing here is that the identity and aid verification provider for X I don't know that was used before a lot or not, not hundred percent. But IT was hacked and kind of like left for a year and a half. Authentic S I don't know how to pronounce its name because I was like symbols in IT. But but .

IT started before .

I work. IT was it's used by bumble in some other platforms too. But they basically left their credentials open, and anyone could log in and get anyone stuff anytime they wanted.

And of course, by self, I mean your social security in Howard government ID. But its funny because elan was like, oh, this is great. Like you can you can create an account and you can, if you know, share, add revenue here with us, which is great.

Of course, there's less add d revenue. But also it's like all those people who did that might forgotten some money like baby in a couple of hundred dollars, but they also now have identity theft and need credit monitoring software. It's kind of a fun circle here.

This is the problem with any any age identity verification system is now they're collecting a lot of information and you know systems kept breached all the time. It's almost it's a very difficult thing to protect IT. I don't know if it's a silly season lawsuit, not I mean, the only data point in excess favor is that garm is now disbanded, which is kind of an interesting result.

All right, I got even sillier story. Some scientists say helman's man is could be the secret to fusion. You want to know more.

I know you do. I know you're going and know more. How could that possibly be the case? Mechanical engineers, i'm going to show you the article because I don't think you believe me.

Mechanical, by the way, they named IT by brand future helman's only helman's mechanical engineers at pensylvania ans lehigh university and put out a press release saying helman's real man is acts as a stand in for plasma. That's the highly charged state of matter that occurs when electrons are shed during the collision of atoms. It's neither solid, liquid nor gas, just like omani.

Our in dumb energy, the mechanical engineer who let the experimented lehigh and his team, or experts, in what's known as inertial confinement fusion, which attempts to heat small capsules filled with fuel, in this case not manage, but hydrogen isotopes to sunlight, extreme temperatures, which then melt and become plasma. One needs subject helman's to sunlight, temperatures of pressures to get IT to melt and act like plasma. Instead, they built what they call the turbulent mixing laboratory, a contraction that wiped the condemned rapidly until IT entered a plastic like state.

This is from futurism. Don't blame me. They they wiped the man is. No, don't you can use miracle web for this? No, not books you've gotten use helman's.

As with this is the quote, as with traditional molten metal, if you put a stress on manage, IT will start to the form if you remove the stressed cos back to its original shape, it's a miracle. So there's an elastic phase followed by a stable plastic phase. The next phase is when IT starts flowing, and that's where the instability kicks in.

I don't know, I don't remember the scene .

in open hymir think there's min days. Here is a video from youtube of the turbulent manage mixed machine. I just have to know .

how they landed on this, you know. Well, if you .

think about IT, there are many everyday items in your kitchen that act like both .

a solid .

and a liquid.

But why not putting why not yellow? Like, why not? Why not?

Like question.

what are there? There are so many. That's me. I wonder if they can use other suffit, or if they just landed here.

right?

Maybe they were they were having lunch and I don't know. I just don't. It's a bizarre.

I guess mainly is always that condemned that you buy once and then adjust, sits in your fridge and it's expire and you're plating to .

find a use for IT and then that might be IT. They had its an inspired helman's why by brand? I know I don't know, but this is there was an actual press release with this information that fiz dot orgues researchers dig deeper and its stability chAllenges of nuclear fusion with manage.

So we've covered the waterfront on this show, and I am so glad we could debut in the attack with everything from costa to main is thank you shasha White man for putting up with me all these years. She's had a digital media at our street. Dorg SHE lives in a pinnacle under dc senator shasha on the x and of course, the chairman of this loss committee. Thank you.

And you're the one putting up with me. Let's be real.

Oh, no, no. Oh no, no. Are you going to do more on cosa? We look to our street from more cosa stuff yeah IT .

depends where IT moves that there's just so much stuff. There's so much stuff all the time. And I mind a hiking season. So i'm outputs a little bit less. But but I mean, lots of other partner groups are doing this to and we're just trying to like figure .

out what we can do here. What can you do? Well, good luck. And on your fall, what is IT? fourteen?

Yeah, fourteen hours.

Fourteen years. Thank you. Is I feel like there's danger involved in this.

not usually one of them, their movie. So I want to do IT because you also get a really cool picture on the ridge and know, I feel like a real like her.

This is, where do you post these photos? Can we see IT on? X, yeah.

I sometimes post on twitter, x whatever. And then on instagram, m attraction as summits where I only post regulatory suffer little and then usually it's just hiking.

Well, the name is a little deceptive. If you have regulatory stuff there, IT should just be you climbing big hills?

No, yeah. I that .

summits, okay, i'm going, I have, I have to now follow this. Oh yeah, yeah. To see your summits show china summits. It's a lot of goats.

a lot of goat, smooth marm's.

Well, they they also summit. Don't goats love high places? Thank you.

johna. Thank you so much, bro. Or heated. Great to see you.

Good luck with the new owners. Thank you. SHE works at sea that where SHE reports on technology. And I guess, I guess you'll be pretty .

busy on tuesday cover the new phones. I will be so gearing up for that.

And then you know apple and what people who seem to like to knew nothing.

Phone a lot. You are you fine. You know, I haven't personally looked into IT very much, but i've seen little .

bits and pieces online. And I people just a the person .

I thought when you said, yeah.

thank you abroad.

Great to see you. Thank you. Likewise.

things are having me. Thanks also to Andrew. The author of this fine book, crypt domani sees in three d hy pope in the fall of ftc is billion dollar phytia empire.

It's a good read. And if if you're curious what happens to that poor nigerian, well, just you gonna have to read the first chapter, actually, the prolog. Good too. November fifteen, twenty twenty two, sam bank pen freed, was sitting alone in the thirty million dollar, twelve thousand square foot pen house in the bombs when he received a message from someone he thought of as an old friend .

out on a amazon bookshop, burns in noble, where we get your books the way i've been framing IT, as if you like the Elizabeth story. Any sort of like major fraudful story, you going to like this one too. Yeah, yeah.

We love fraud.

don't we? Yeah.

it's the best. yes. Thank you so much, Andrew, and good luck on the book and thanks for being here. I'll see you soon, I hope thanks to a benito for doing this.

Benito galas is our technical director and our producer and and will be doing the editing and all of that from his home, his new, I wish we could see, I can see you and IT looks beautiful, but we can't somehow we can't put IT up on the screen next time you'll be able to see IT. Thanks also to Anthony Nelson and rustle tami and bert machine, who helped to design the new studio. Look at this thing is beautiful, just gorgeous.

They did a beautiful job. The nexi clock, you should know, has been set to universal, coordinated time. IT is UTC.

This clock in my upper right there is a pacific time. So this way one of those will make sense to everybody. We do the show every sunday afternoon to p pacific.

That's five pm eastern, twenty one hundred UTC. You can watch us live now on every possible platform. Youtube, 点 com， slash, ti, slash live twitch at TV slash twitter, facebook, x dart com kick linked in of all places. And of course, if you're club twit member in our club twit this court, I hope you will watch lie.

But of course, after the fact, you can download copies of the show from our website, twit that TV, there's a youtube channel dedicated to the video from this weekend course, the best thing to do subscribe in your favorite podcast player. That way you'll get IT automatically as soon as been takes up the the bad stuff and the puts back in the. I didn't know what that button did.

Now I do. And we will be back with more from the attic next tuesday, back break weekly security now wednesday, windows weekly this week and google. And don't forget friday are very special.

Coffee coach with the coffee part of what I hope will will be many ad hawk kind of get togethers up here in the attic. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Yes, after twenty years, we're still saying IT, another twin is in the can.

I'll see next time. Good bye. You wanna try IT, right? You want to try IT.

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