Master your trading psychology with Yvan Byeajee (Trading Composure) - #245
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So welcome back to the EdgeWong podcast. We are here with Ivan Bajic and most of you probably know him under Trading Composure on Twitter. And he's very well known for psychology, emotions, strategy building, is a successful trader himself and working a lot with other traders. So we are really happy to be able to pick his brain. So first of all, welcome and thank you for taking the time today.

Thank you once again for having me on, Rolf and Moritz. It's a real pleasure to be here. And all of your links, resources, links to your book will be posted in the show notes for anyone wanting to connect and check out more of your stuff. Let's get right in. I want to ask you, you're a successful trader yourself. How can you describe your trading approach and how does it fit you personally? Mm-hmm.

So I trade three different approaches on three different timeframes, one based on the weekly chart, one based on the 30-minute chart. And the third strategy is more of a long-term, very long-term buy and hold strategy, where I buy stocks, cryptocurrencies these days as well, because our investors are pressuring us to add cryptocurrencies into our portfolio.

But yeah, I buy stocks and cryptocurrencies that have been beaten down for unfair, capricious reasons. And I hold them for the very long term without any stop loss, without any target. So that's the third strategy. And it's more of a hands-off kind of strategy. And these different strategies, they complement each other very nicely. When one isn't doing well, the other one usually is.

And what this does is that it smooths my overall equity curve. There's less volatility there because it's sort of, you know, it's those strategies that complement each other. So that's how I trade in a nutshell. It's very, very, very, very simple. I don't make things complicated at all.

essentially I'm flipping a metaphorical coin over and over and over again. I'm sure you've heard of this analogy before. Take a fair coin,

heads you win $3, tails you lose $1. You don't need to be a genius to figure out what will happen should we keep flipping the coin, right? Should we flip it 20 times, 50 times, 100 times, 1,000 times, 2,000 times, you will make more money than you lose. Now, of course, in the short term, there's a lot of random noise there, short-term random noise. Heads, heads, tails, tails, heads can get clusters of tails, meaning clusters of losses, but keep flipping the coin.

you're virtually guaranteed to make more and more than you win. And that's how I approach my own trading personally. I trade with the trend. There's a positive asymmetry element to my trades.

and then hard rules, risk management. That's basically it. So trend trading, better symmetry, risk management. And, you know, I keep flipping my metaphorical coin over and over and over again. Of course, trading is a bit more multidimensional than a simple coin flipping game. Absolutely. But the core of it

It's just a statistical probability game, pure and simple. And if you can take your emotions out of it, if you can really focus on the process of placing good bets from a statistical probability point of view, you will make more money than you lose. It's not Ivan's opinion. It's not Raul's opinion or Moritz's opinion. It's a statistical fact. So that's the game we're playing at the end of the day. Yes, it's a game of strategy, but...

I would say it's a skill-based numbers game. And without the right mindset, it's very, very difficult to play this game because we have this short-term oriented sort of mindset. We have this...

We abhor uncertainty. I don't know what it is about human beings, but we don't like it. We don't like uncertainty. We don't like not knowing the outcome of the next trade. And you can readily see it in how we approach our lives as well. We're very short-term oriented. We're a very short-term oriented species. Of course, we can think long-term, right? But we have those urges, those contradicting urges, right?

long-term goals, short-term urges, and it's very difficult to sort of make sense of it. And so this is where the bulk of the work needs to be put in, you know, in my humble opinion, right? As a trader, you need to

You need to start living an examined life, observing what it is about you that makes you do stupid things in the market and see how you can better this, how you can better yourself, how you can make more consistent decisions. Once again, that is the game we're playing here.

Yeah. There are a lot of things I want to dive deeper into, like the uncertainty principle mindset. But how did you develop? I want to get to this first. How did you build and develop your strategy? Did you build it from scratch? Do you tweak it all the time? What is your approach to that? So my strategies, they've been time tested over time. So I have enough data to know that they work. And I adopt the Tom Basso sort of principle, right?

Tom Basso said something very insightful once. And Tom Basso, by the way, for those of you who don't know, he's one of the market wizards interviewed by Josh Schwager in his book by the same name, market wizards. He's an American hedge fund manager. And he came up with an interesting quote once. He said that,

The more you understand the market and the more you understand the process leading to a positive outcome in the market, trend trading, better symmetry, risk management, right? Those three core principles, time-tested principles. The more you understand this, the more you also understand that

Backtesting, I mean, very often, traders, they overdo it. They overdo it because they're just an intolerance of uncertainty there. They're trying to nail that perfect entry. But, I mean, there's uncertainty baked into market prices, right? There's uncertainty baked into market prices that no amount of analysis can fully dispel. And if you don't embrace that uncertainty, if you don't accept it, you're just going

caught in playing a game of trying to predict where the market is going next. And there's nothing wrong with this. There's nothing inherently wrong with this because prediction is baked into

into the endeavor of trading by default, right? When you're placing a directional trade, you're essentially making a prediction, right? And so there's nothing wrong with this. But if it's not balanced with that prediction mindset, mentality, it's not balanced with a thorough understanding and appreciation and embrace and quite frankly, love of uncertainty,

It's just unproductive overall, right? So this is how I do things. I mean, my strategies, they're based on those time-tested principles, right? Trend trading, better symmetry, risk management, and hard rules, right, to sort of structure my whole process. And that's it. I'm just flipping a metaphorical coin once again, right?

I'm not making this more complicated than it actually is. And I keep showing up in the market. I maintain the engagement. When I'm in a period of drawdown, I either lower my position size or I stay out of the market for a while until the market sort of phase changes and starts to favor my strategies again. That's how I approach it. It's very...

centered around risk management, strategic risk management. And that's it. I keep things very simple. And this reminds me of something. By the way, I manage a fund for myself and a small group of investors. And

Every time someone wants to invest in the fund, I sit down with them and we have a very frank conversation about what it is that I can do. What it is that my goal is, my role as a trader, as a fund manager.

and I make sure they understand that I'm not some sort of Nostradamus. I don't know what the heck the market is going to do next. I can have some conjectures. I can have a general idea, but for sure, I don't know what's going to happen next. So if anything, I'm not an expert predictor. I'm an expert risk manager.

And I make sure that they understand this. I'm a professional risk manager, right? That's what I do. And if,

If they're going to invest in the fund, they're paying me to manage risk proficiently, strategically, with composure, with clarity of thought, with clarity of mind. And that's what they're paying me for. They're paying me to help them maintain the engagement with the market. And sometimes we get lucky. We make a lot of money. Sometimes we reap losses. That is the nature of the game that we're playing here. Risk and reward. Risk and opportunity.

And so, yeah, and if they don't understand this, they don't understand that I'm just an expert risk manager. I'm just a professional risk manager. I'm not an expert predictor. If they don't understand this, I don't take their money. They don't get to invest in the fund, even if they have a million dollars in a suitcase waiting. So it's really about aligning my temperament and the way I do things with risk.

Just making sure that they understand what we're doing here. So I hope this answers your question, Rolf. I tend to ramble a little bit, but if it doesn't, I mean, I'll clarify. Oh, good. Thank you. Very insightful. So you're not a discretionary trader from what I get? Is it fully rule-based?

I wouldn't call it fully rule-based because I do allow some discretion when it comes to profit-taking. But when it comes to entry, when it comes to risk management, I'm fully rule-based. And those are the elements where, look, there's uncertainty in the market once again, and you can't be uncertain about what it is that you're going to do next. Your process needs to be

repeatable, reliable. And if you're using your intuition and moods and feelings and impressions to sort of determine where the market is going to go next, it's not repeatable, right? One day it's this, the other day it's that.

So I'm a firm believer that your entry has to be rule-based as much as possible, your risk management as well, as much as possible. But when it comes to profit-taking, look, whenever I see that there's a potential for a trend to continue, I'm going to remove my profit target. I'm going to let the market do its thing. This is how I approach things personally. I understand that there are many ways to sort of crack an egg, right?

But that's my personal approach to trading overall. One thing that caught my attention is that you said the love of uncertainty. That's quite interesting. I mean, firstly, how do you make someone accept certainty in the first place? And then how do you make them love uncertainty in the next step? I mean, that's a huge, huge topic for traders. Because if you don't accept the uncertainty, then you are...

You're screwed as a trader, right? So how would you approach that? Right. I had a very interesting conversation with, a very interesting back and forth with Dr. Brett Steenbarger a few months ago now.

So he read my book, my newest book, Trading Composure, and he was giving me his thoughts on it. Because Wiley and Sons worked with him on his previous books. So they reached out to him and just asking him if he could spread the word, help spread the word about the book.

But anyway, so he read the book and he found it super insightful, but he pushed back a little bit on this idea, on this whole idea of embracing uncertainty. Hopefully I'm not strawmanning his position here, but he was essentially saying that traders already know that there's uncertainty. They already know it conceptually. So it's not a question of

of knowing that there's uncertainty. Rather, it's a question of creating strategies to sort of mitigate the uncertainty. Yeah, I hope I'm not strawmanning him once again here. And my stance on this is, yes, traders know that there's uncertainty, right? But they know it loosely. And they...

Let's put it this way. They know it intellectually, conceptually, not deeply, soul deep, right? Experientially. And that's a problem. That's a real problem because it has consequences. If you don't continuously acknowledge and embrace the uncertainty, you're always going to be making, you're always going to be implicitly making decisions that

and having expectations that are misaligned with the nature of the market. And that nature is, once again, uncertainty. And so, look, I'm not coming up with this stuff

Guys, my views on the market, they mirror those of Howard Marks, of Warren Buffett, of Ray Dalio even. And to me, markets are complex, adaptive, nonlinear systems where uncertainty is inherent and outcomes are influenced by a multitude of interdependent variables.

And so that's what I try to convey in my work. And so because there's uncertainty, your actions can't be uncertain too, right? There needs to be structure to your actions, right? And this is what produces consistent results, right? The consistency in your actions and in your decision-making process and in following your rules, this is what gets you consistent results in the market. So, yeah.

Back to my conversation with Dr. Bretstein-Bargher.

I don't even think there's a misalignment here. I don't even think we're in disagreement at all here. I mean, at the core of it. All I'm saying in my work is that we know way less than we think we do about the future. And we need to recognize this continuously, ongoingly. Humility is such an important piece of the trading success equation because there's some strong...

evolutionary forces within us that crave, that deeply crave uncertainty. And if you're not careful and if you're not aware, you will get locked in a cycle of bad decision-making and just...

Yeah, and bad, poor results overall. But so this, I mean, I explained this to sort of set the stage a little bit. Now to answer your question more precisely, Moritz, the way you embrace uncertainty is to really study it.

become a student of uncertainty, right? Learn why there's uncertainty to begin with in the market, why and how it manifests itself in the market. Look, when you place a trade, you don't know who's going to come into the market right now, right? And bid prices up or offer them lower and with what kind of financial power and the kind of ripple effect this is going to have on price action. You don't know

You know, any of that, right? Someone could place a trade to go long right now, and someone on the other side of the world could decide to, I don't know, close his position to just finance some vacation or to pay his taxes, whatever the reason might be, right? It might not even be based on the chart, right? It might be a reason based on his life circumstances. And if that person's position size is big enough, they will move the market,

And this has the potential to invalidate your trade. And this is constantly happening in the market on all timeframes, on a five-minute timeframe, on a weekly timeframe, constantly happening. And so if you don't constantly acknowledge this,

it's just very, very, very, very difficult, right? If you're operating with this sort of bias that technical analysis is telling you what's going to happen next, you're drawing little lines on the chart and okay, you know, so, you know, price should, should, should, uh,

This is the thing with support and resistance levels. They're constantly being drawn and redrawn, right? You might have a major support level and the market could potentially break it and hit the lower sort of levels

level right below it, right? And so those levels are constantly being drawn and redrawn. So you have to take it lightly. You have to take your analysis lightly and not bang the farm on one particular trade or on one particular sort of piece of analysis, right? And so this is a

continuous work that you have to put, that humility, that ongoing humility, that ongoing acknowledgement that, okay, I know way less than I think I do. And it's okay. It's fine. I don't need to know, right? If I'm going with a trend, if I have a better symmetry component to my trading, nothing wrong with small profits here and there, break-even trades. But generally speaking, if you're letting your profits run, if your risk management is on point,

This has to work. It has to work. And so, yes, continuously reminding yourself of the uncertainty and getting to a point where you're loving it, you're embracing it, you're expecting it. And this requires a lot of inner work as well. This requires that you look at yourself, look within yourself, the good, the bad, the ugly. What is it about you that dislikes yourself?

abhors uncertainty. And this is some deep, deep work, right? Because there's a lot of shit within us and it's linked to money, it's linked to our fear of failure, it's linked to all sorts of different things. But that's where living an examined life comes in, right? Looking at yourself and

And learning to sort of accept yourself as well, right? And everything that you are, the good, the bad, and the ugly within yourself. And that's where progress starts to happen. You start to sort of flow with the uncertainty more. Yeah, that's my answer on this.

Obviously with EdgeWong we are very big on examining things, be it data or having a written journal.

What are your practices for keeping track of trades, reviewing data, writing extensive notes or having a written diary? What are your thoughts on this and what's your practice here? It's very, very important, especially for newer traders who are still going through the process of understanding their own style, their own approach. It's very important, that act of understanding.

gathering data. As traders, we're simply scientists, you know, we're scientists. We're basically running experiments and we're testing things. We're leveraging what works and we're, you know, what doesn't work, we're letting it fall by the wayside. And for you to be able to do this, you need data points, right? And so, yeah,

This act of tracking is very, very important. Personally, I do it myself, right? I track my trades, even though I understand very well what I'm looking for in the market these days. And I could, you know, I don't have, I've come to a point where I don't have to track anymore. I still track because, you know, that's part of my role as a trader, especially since I manage this fund, right? Everything is tracked. There's a strong accountability system in place, right?

But I mean, I could trade without tracking things, but this comes with experience from having had thousands of trades under your belt, right? But if you're still starting out and you just have a couple of trades under your belt, you're still testing things.

And so it's very, very important that you continue doing this, that you track your trades. And Edgewonk is a name that reliably comes up in terms of the work that I do with traders. It's a very, very powerful piece of software that you guys have developed there.

And it's very, very insightful and comes up all the time in terms of what I hear from traders who are going through this process of tracking and understanding themselves and their strategies and their overall approach to the markets. So, yeah, very, very important for sure.

Yeah, so I also heard you talk a lot about being consistent and making sure that you're following your rules. What is your approach when you're working with traders to help them gain more consistency in their trading and remove some of the inconsistencies?

As you guys probably know, I'm big on meditation. I was a Buddhist monk for a while. I've had this experience where after many years of struggle in the market and just not being able to figure this puzzle out, just begging my head against the wall for losing money.

And I decided to take a long break from treating. And I went to live in Buddhist monasteries. And it was a very...

important part of my life. So I've studied meditation in different Buddhist traditions, Vipassana, Zen, and Dzogchen. And it's helped me a lot in my own personal life. And I talk about this all the time. It's helped me manage a stutter that I have, that I always had.

And if we had this conversation a few years ago, you guys would see that I wouldn't be able to form a coherent sentence without repeatedly stumbling on my words. That's how bad it was. And so meditation has helped me in my own personal life like that. It's helped me manage my stutter, my emotions overall. And as you can imagine, in my own trading as well, just it's helped me understand myself better. But that's it. I wouldn't,

It was instrumental for sure, but it's not a magic pill, right? It's not this sort of magic thing that you take and that immediately you're, you're, you're a consistent, you're a consistent trader, right? It doesn't work like that. Um, so what, what you need is, is, um,

Meditation is important, sure, right? Because it helps you understand yourself. You're taking time every day out of your busy schedule to sit with yourself and to be with yourself and to observe yourself, the good, the bad, the ugly within yourself. And you're learning to sit with it.

Very, very important. And when you learn to sit with it, you develop that discipline muscle, you develop that patience muscle and that capacity to just deal with your difficult emotions. And you're doing this on purpose. There's nothing magical about it. It's just brain exercise.

That's one part of the equation. Then the other part of the equation is figuring out who you are as a trader, because very often traders, they try to fit a square peg in the wrong circle, right? And it's just...

it's difficult, right? You're making this game more difficult than it actually needs to be. What's better is to find a strategy and approach that fits your own personality, right? And this way, because this way you're not fighting an uphill battle, right? You're doing, you're trading something that spouses your inherent tendencies.

And now it's very difficult to figure this out. That's why tracking is very, very important. This way you sort of figure out what works and what doesn't work. And then lastly, accountability is very, very important. Accountability is very, very important. Look, no amount of meditation will do. No amount of journaling will do. If you're just stuck in those old behavioral tendencies and you're just not

you're not aware of what you're doing in the moment. And what I've found in my work with traders is that we have a very strong accountability system in place. So essentially, they have to report their trades as they're making them. They have to let us know. So basically, we've created this sort of institutional structure. And it's very similar to the kind of accountability that institutional traders get. So in

institutional traders, if you think about it, they outperform retail traders on a consistent basis. And very often, it's...

right out of college, university, right? And very often they don't have a trading bone in their bodies, right? Sure, they might have that knowledge, right? But very often they don't even have a diploma in finance, right? But still they're hired because of their educational prowess, right? And

Very often, that's how it is. Yet they outperform retail traders like you and me on a consistent basis. And the reason they're able to do this, well, one of the reasons why they're able to do this is because of the strong support structure that they have. They have

an accountability manager, a risk officer, however you want to call this, behind their back, watching over their shoulders, making sure that they're staying consistent and process-driven and sticking with their risk allotments and staying disciplined and all of that, right? But us retail traders, we don't have that luxury. We don't have that luxury. Right from the get-go, we're our own boss. We work for ourselves, by ourselves, which is great. It's

It's amazing. It's great in the long run when you're a fully proficient trader. In the short term, it's a massive disadvantage. It's a massive disadvantage not to have someone

to whom you're accountable to, right? It's a massive disadvantage not to have someone who's overviewing your progress. Because look at how hard it is for people to stick to a diet. Very simple things like that. Look at how hard it is for people to stick to a diet or to meditate consistently or to stop drinking or to hit the gym. Very simple stuff. It's very, very hard for them to do this.

Not once, not twice, reliably, consistently. Now you're asking them to be consistent in the market when money is on the line?

No, it doesn't work like that. It's not as easy as it sounds. So having a strong accountability system in place is very, very important. And so that's basically it, right? Proper, viable, statistically viable strategy, creating strategy that fits your personality, very important as well. Living an examined life through a practice like meditation or journaling or whatever it is, and then accountability.

And that's how you generate consistency in the market. Yeah. So how would you say you generate accountability for these people once they leave your program? Because you said you have the structure while they're in the program, which is, I think, a fantastic idea. I really like that. So before they take a trade, they have to send it to you. Is that right? That's it.

And they get the approval from us before they take the trade. And we make sure that the trade that they placed or that they're closing fits their plan. And so basically they have that constant overview.

And it's very difficult to look. Most of our students, they leave our program consistent because it is very difficult to sort of mess up when you're accountable to people other than yourself. So essentially, once again, we've created that institutional structure and it's very, very effective. So, yeah. Yeah.

and and and then when people leave the program do they stick with that uh accountability basically do they imagine you watching over their shoulder

And that's the beauty of it, Moritz. They're able to maintain that consistency. So our program is three months long. Why three months? It's because it takes on average two to three months to build a habit. And what we're concerned with during our time with these traders is the habit of behavioral consistency. We get them to see consistency.

how the uncertainty resolves itself, how the losses resolve themselves as they stick with their strategy, as they stay accountable to us. And they need to see that with their own eyes. It's one thing to understand it theoretically, right? Oh, if I stick to my strategy, this will work out. It's one thing to understand it, you know, theoretically, conceptually. It's another thing to actually see it with your own eyes, through your own experience. And so this is what we get them to see. We're with them for three months.

And we make sure that, you know, we provide some tough love as well, right? We're a team there, right? We're a team of consistent traders. We're assisting them to get the results that they want, to help them see how the uncertainty resolves itself. And when they see that, when they see how the losses resolve themselves, how the uncertainty resolves itself, I mean, it massively boosts their confidence. And once they have that confidence,

confidence and that consistency it's a flywheel effect Maurice you know consistency because more consistency confidence because more confidence and next thing you know you're in a completely different place financially personally emotionally everything changes so it's really about building that habit of seeing with your own eyes and through your own experience how the uncertainty results itself very very powerful amazing that sounds pretty good

So the people that come to you, they already need to have a system in place or a training plan? Yes.

Yes, they need to have their system in place, a trading strategy. Even if it's a discretionary method, we review the strategy, the system to begin with. That's the very first step because we want to make sure that it makes sense, you know, in terms of, you know, the general idea of it. Even if it's discretionary, right, it has to make sense statistically speaking because, you know,

Consistency is great, but if you're consistent with a bad strategy, negative consistent results is what you will get. So the strategy needs to be aligned with your behavioral consistency. Then the magic happens. The world is your oyster. When you work with your traders, do you see a common theme that a lot struggle with the same things? So in EdgeRank, we do a lot of reviews.

where I deep dive into the trading journals. And very often you can see even traders that are different markets, different holding periods, trend reversals, whatever it is, but often you'll find like core areas that they're struggling with. Is that something that you also observe and what is it? And then the next question will be how you have them overcome this, the biggest struggle that they're dealing with. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we find this constant theme of revenge trading, FOMO, you know, tilt, the inability to let your profits run, hesitation, whatever it is. And all these different issues, they have one common theme. The theme is their intolerance of uncertainty.

99% of the trading errors that traders make, they stem from the intolerance of uncertainty. And if you really think about it, you will come to this exact conclusion as well. It's really an intolerance of uncertainty. And so,

The first pillar of our work with these traders is to first give them this proper training in uncertainty. And so we go through this concept of uncertainty, what it is, we go through it very deeply, not only on a theoretical level, but on an experiential level as well. We do certain exercises with them to help them see how the uncertainty in the market presents itself

and what to do about it. And they need to see it once again with their own eyes to sort of, you know, because most traders, what happens is that they're experiencing a consistency gap. They know that they should be consistent and process-driven and all of that. But there's a disparity between what they know they should be doing and what they're actually doing. That's what the consistency gap is. And Mark Douglas talked about this very extensively. And so how do you feel this gap?

you know, more theory doesn't necessarily help, right? More knowledge doesn't necessarily help. At some point, there needs to be, you know, you need to work on an experiential level. So this is why we do certain key exercises with these traders to help them see the uncertainty, why it's present, and we help them contextualize that uncertainty and see them see it more broadly, not just in the market, but in life as well, right?

And right when we're done with that work with them, we have to go back into the market and trade as per usual. And this time, we're behind their back. We're watching over their shoulders. We're making sure that they're sticking with their strategy, with their trading plan. And we assist them like that for three months.

I don't know if this answers your question, Rolf. Totally. And it's funny because it really matches my experience. So I've done probably around 100 journal reviews over the last 10 years. And as you said, the trade management, so jumping out of profitable trades too early, letting losses run too long, revenge trading. Those are all the common themes that I see on probably 70 to 80% of the journals being the biggest struggle that traders have.

And yeah, a lot comes down to uncertainty. I would be really interested to hear, because you said people know what they should be doing and they just don't do it. And I see this so often in the journals as well. People write the note, I'm

repeating this behavior. I know I should be doing it, but then you look at the next five trades and just the same story. So without giving away too much, I would be super curious to just hear one of the strategies that you use in your program, if you don't mind sharing. It's very, very simple, Rolf.

Look, there's a lot of noise out there, especially in the trading psychology space, a lot of noise. And I'm not talking down on all of that. It's very important. But too much information, it's not helpful. So for us in our coaching program, we drill down on what's essential. Embrace of uncertainty, emotional management using mindfulness techniques.

proper attitude, growth mindset, and that's it. We drill those concepts down into their psyche and we do that every single day. Every single day, we keep it focused like that and we work with them during the trading session and we help them apply those concepts as they're placing trades, as they're closing trades,

We're a whole team here, you know, and so that's the kind of work that we do with traders. It's not groundbreaking. It's not sexy, right? There's nothing much to it, but it's that constant hammering, that constant repetition. It produces, I mean,

phenomenal results for our traders. Most of them, upwards of 98% of them leave the program consistent. So this shows that simplicity is key. At the end of the day, so much noise on the internet. Oh, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. Sure, I'm not talking down on this. Once again, it's very important. It's very important to expose yourself to different ideas, different concepts,

But at the end of the day, action is key, right? And so you have to bridge that gap between theory and experience. And the way you do that is to just go, you know, sort of...

just drill down on some key elements that are proven to work. And in my experience, those are time-tested principles. Embrace of uncertainty, emotional management like mindfulness, once again, proper attitude, growth mindset, and that's it. And that's what we do with traders on a daily basis.

Sounds super interesting. And yeah, a lot of things really match my experience as well from looking at all the journals and confirming that traders are very simple and that focusing on the basics, the foundations is usually...

the way to go, not only in trading, but we're recording this on the 2nd of January. Lots of people have good New Year's resolutions, losing weight, getting in shape, and also there's a lot of information out there. But if you focus on the basics, on the foundation, I think it's applicable to every field. You get probably the best results for the smallest amount of effort, I guess. Absolutely. So, yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation, Ivan. Lots to think about.

Thank you for taking the time. There's still a lot of things that we weren't able to cover, but maybe there's time for round two one day. But first of all, thank you for taking the time out today and thank you for being here. Thank you as well, Moritz, for joining today. Thank you so much, you guys, for having me on. And I hope my stutter wasn't too distracting, but I hope the message was clear overall. Uncertainty, embracement, certainty is key. And if you work on that, you will get better as a trader.

Thank you. Really enjoyed our talk.