176. Google’s 60-Hour workweek, Asda's bonus backlash and how to go from friend to boss. PLUS! Leaders are human too, with Dr Elaine Smith - This Week in Work, 4th March 2025
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Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a child psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace coaches. Yes, we are. Welcome, welcome. Hello. Anything happening in DEI recently, Leanne? Anything new? I've heard various things. I've heard a lot of things.

I think we fixed it so we can cancel most of it. Or it doesn't really work, so we might as well just cancel it and not replace it with anything. Or we just need to be a bit more bully, bully, bully, bully, bully, bully, I don't know.

We will be addressing that, don't you worry. Trying not to say the T word because you told me I can't talk about politics. Well, it's not you can't talk about politics. It's just as a work thing. We want to be kind of politics agnostic. Although, to be fair, if you're a regular listener, you probably know already where we stand on our politics and what we like and who we don't.

Anyway, if you're a regular, just tune out for about 18 seconds while I let the new listeners know how this little pod works. Today is Tuesday, which is our This Week in Work episode, where we update you on what's happening in the world of work. Plus, I have a hot take from an expert guest. Plus, your weekly dose of the world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Yes, I do.

And then every Thursday, we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. This Thursday, it's a good one. It is a genuine 45-minute masterclass on being a great manager. So with that out the way, Leah, what time is it? It's my favorite time of the week, Al. It's time for the news roundup. Give me the jingle. Give me that jingle. Okay, Leah, what have you seen this week? Alistair has scrapped 10,000 staff bonuses. Oh, wow.

I know, yeah. Every little helps. Well, apparently not enough. That's Tesco. Oh, is it? Oh, there you go. That's Asda's problem right there, isn't it? Their branding is just not resonating. But yes, all the major UK newspapers are talking about the big news coming out of Asda that more than 10,000 managers will have been told they won't receive their annual bonus this year. Before you carry on, the context for...

American listeners might be that Walmart owns Asda. So Asda's a big supermarket. They used to. They don't anymore. Oh, do they not? But Asda's a big... It comes from Associated Dairies. That's where the name came from. And it's basically a big supermarket in the UK. Sorry, Kerry. Grocery store.

But anyway, the managers aren't getting their bonuses. So it does come after a bit of a tough year, declining sales, shrinking market share. That Waitrose seems to be doing very well at the moment. And what's been described as the worst Christmas performance in a decade. So

So what is happening? Well, typically managers at Asda expect to receive their bonus in the first quarter of the year. However, the supermarket's faltering performance does mean that those payouts are off the table. So the decision impacts roughly 10% of Asda's 134,500 employees, which is around 14,000 people. That's a lot of people.

As this market share, as I said, has dropped by about 1.5% of last 12 months. Sales are down by 5.2% in the 12 weeks leading up to the end of January. And the financial report due out soon is expected to paint a pretty bleak picture, adding more pressure to an already struggling retailer. Alan Leighton, who was credited with turning Asda into a retail powerhouse in the 1990s, good times.

Recently returned to lead the company, he is facing an uphill battle to revive what he calls the ASDA DNA.

Since his return, the company has also seen job cuts, including the departure of 13 regional managers as part of a restructuring effort. So why does this matter for employees? Well, the decision to cut Baroness is, understandably, people aren't going to like and is going to hit morale pretty hard. One former senior Asda employee warned that morale will be at rock bottom.

bottom and some of the supermarket's top talent may start looking elsewhere. And it's not just speculation. Fewer than half of Asda's workers said they are confident in the company's strategy in a recent staff survey. There's also a lot of concern about how this will affect Asda's workplace culture. One recruiter even suggested the move could lead to anarchy within the company. And let's not forget, this comes after

off the heels of criticism from union chiefs over how ASDA handled recent redundancies, hundreds of head office staff were laid off without warning late last year and moved the GMB union accord not the right way for a major employer to act, saying that very politely.

As the challenges aren't just internal, the supermarket has struggled since it was taken over, as I said, Al, by Issa Brothers and private equity group TDR Capital in 2021. Former chairman Lord Rose, who left in November, called Asda's performance embarrassing. And Mr. Leighton has admitted it could take up to five years to turn things around.

On top of all this, Asda is still searching for a permanent CEO. Doesn't help, does it, when you've got instability at the top after the sudden departure of Roger Burnley in 2021. So yeah, as I said, the ongoing leadership void does add to the uncertainty as the company faces all the rising costs, the new recycling levies, national insurance and increase in the national living wage.

Oh, it's a tricky, tricky time for Asda. And as I said, the ripples through the organisation is a real concern when bonuses are cut, especially after a rough year. It can feel like a bit of a gut punch to those who've been putting in the work.

Al, thoughts? Oh, it's a tough one. I mean, this is the problem, I think, with anything that is low margin is that probably the biggest expense is going to be the labour costs. And so, therefore, when things get a little bit squeezed, then that's the first to kind of get...

devalued, I suppose? Is that the right word? It's not, I mean, it's not good news. It's funny because Waitrose is another supermarket and I want to say like Trader Joe's, but I don't know that I've got that reference right in the US, but basically it's a bit more of an upmarket supermarket. So the prices are probably 50 to 100% more on most things than potentially 500% more on some others. A very, very fancy supermarket. But

But as you said before, they're doing well because they have the margin to be able to do that. Yeah, and I think it's that statistic there that half of ASDA employees don't believe in the strategy of ASDA moving forward. That's a real red flag, isn't it? And I understand because I don't think ASDA has found its place

or we found its place in the market like in the 90s when it was booming it was a supermarket it was it was the first supermarket to have like the massive hyper huge supermarkets in the uk wasn't it rotisserie chicken was a thing everyone went nuts over rotisserie chicken in asda and it just seems that now it's no longer the cheapest because we've got kind of competitors like lidl and aldi that have joined we've not even got that they're kind of the family supermarket because again with things like tesco they do have a lot of club car deals don't

They do. Goodness. And then you've got your high end, like your Waitrose and your Marks and Spencer's food. I just think that everyone's a bit confused. We don't know what we're doing. We've been sold. We're going through this transition. It doesn't sound like it's being handled particularly well. And now you're punishing 14,000 managers by not giving them their bonus and also not telling that until the point in which it's due. You know, it

It's just being it sounds like things are being handled really badly. Of course, there are commercial decisions that need to be made. Of course, financially speaking, this might be the right move, as we've always said. And the same with redundancies is not about what decision is made. It's how that decision is executed. And once again, we are seeing a lacking leadership level in terms of how to implement these decisions effectively.

Fun fact, when I had my beer business back in 2004, 2005, 2006, it was actually cheaper to buy my alcohol from Asda than it was to buy from the wholesaler. There you have it. What else have you seen this week, Kev? Well, this one caught my eye. I've always been, well, I'm not always, but back in the day when I was starting my businesses, I was fascinated by Google because it seemed to come from nowhere. One, there's an article this week in, I believe it's TechCrunch, but the link will be in the show notes.

where Sergey Brin, one of Google's OGs, one of the two people who started it, Larry, I forget his name, you're probably shouting at me, and Sergey Brin, they're two Google co-founders. They have sent a memo to staff telling them to return to the office at least every weekday. I'm out. I'm done.

Come back, Leigh Leigh Leigh, sit back down, sit back down. Can't do another one. Oh, we're going to have to, we're going to have to. These good people need to know what's going on. So as I was saying, Sergey Brin has told people to come back to the office at least every weekday, which again suggests a problem. So it's not three days a week like their current policy, but every single day. And apparently he thinks now, Leigh-Anne, sit down and don't go anywhere because you're about to be, what did the kids say, shook? Apparently.

Apparently he thinks 60 hours a work week is the sweet spot for productivity. That's 12 hours a day for five days. I'm like, hold on a minute here.

This just doesn't make any sense. This is just crazy talk. But anyway, this isn't an official policy change yet, but it does show how much pressure these tech giants are feeling in this race to develop AGI. That's Artificial General Intelligence. To you and I, that's basically ChatGPT, which is not ChatGPT because Google got their own. But Bryn has apparently come back to Google specifically to help them catch up after ChatGPT really started taking market share away from them back in 2022.

I mean, I do get it from one angle. Obviously, you're in a very competitive industry. If you do feel behind, there's a temptation to throw everything at the problem. Like, you know, more hours, more FaceTime, more collaboration. But 60 hours is a sweet spot. I'm just not sure the research backs that up at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure that my Leanne is going to have something to say about that. I'm not sure I understand. So he's saying that come back into the office at least five weeks. Yep.

Work at least 60 hours a week. Yep. And what's AI got to do with the price of fish? Because they are behind with AI. So basically, everyone else is overtaking them. So Anthropic, which is from Amazon, is overtaking them. ChatGPT, which is, I think, mainly what funds Microsoft AI. So he's blaming that on the fact that people have been working from home. Yes. And not in the office five days a week. Yes.

Yes, exactly. He's talking about creativity you get when you get everyone together. He's talking about the fact that they all work really hard. Maybe it worked for him and Larry at the very beginning when they did start Google back in, what, 2002, 2003? Maybe that's how they did it. So that's the only way he knows to win. But Google is just in kind of big trouble because there's quite a few AI startups which are taking on Google for search. When was the last time you actually Googled something? And when was the last time you Googled something and clicked on an ad?

for that because you know people say I would never click on ads but ads do work but I imagine their revenue is way way down I'm still a Google girl I do I do Google stuff I like to see where the source is from do you know what I mean I always like that always that thing on Chachapitur or similar

I mean, whatever. I'm so bored of the bringing people back to a physical office is going to fix all of our productivity and innovation problems. It's not. It's really not. Unless it's done with intention and unless it's done in a way that is actually following some form of data that has been gathered about the current way of working, then you're just not even going to know if it's going to have an impact or not. I think we just need to get to the point where we stop

glorifying startup culture which yes might be eight people in the same room seven days a week 60 hours a week because that is often what is needed in startup it's that hustle it is that that pace and speed is what's needed once you then at this point of a multi-million dollar corporation it's a very different mindset it's a different it's a different culture and more to the point like it's just naive that

People are willing to work that hard for a startup because they might have accuracy and they might end up being a Google or, you know, going to the moon. But

the point is about Google it's not there anymore you've already lost the AI race if you're this far behind you've already lost the best thing you can possibly do is think about what the next thing is going to be in terms of how AI will be applied how you can use that with all the great minds that you have in Google that have dominated internet technology for the past 20 years the way that that

young talent, any talent is now talking, forget young actually, that was what I was incorrectly on, any talent is talking, is that they want more flexibility, they want more balance, they want more autonomy, they have realised that these long commutes or time away from their family actually isn't very effective for them sustainably working at a productive pace. It's just there's so many things, I just think Google is in trouble and I'm

I'm very surprised that this is the way they're going. And then it also screams as well, they've paid billions for these complexes that nobody's in.

Google have YouTube? Yes. Right, yeah. So Google haven't been innovative for a long time, have they? No, and that's a great idea. What about if you went to YouTube and you went, right, let's put all of our AI work into YouTube because no one's really got that yet. What happens if you had an AI where you go to YouTube and go, I want to, like, I've been really getting into, like, joinery and stuff recently. So I might go, I want to see, um,

how to make a butt joint, which is always funny because it's got the word butt in it. So what the AI will do is scan all the videos, look at my previous history, work out what videos I click off on and what videos I watch to the end so it knows what my viewing style is, and just create me one video that is basically a summary of maybe five different videos on butt joints. And it puts it together all in real time or within like, you know, sort of 30 seconds.

That's interesting. That is a great application of AI just to build another chat GPT when there's already two out there. Yeah, or at least put some effort into solving the problems that people are concerned about when it comes to AI. Yeah.

Or it's limitations or it's, I don't know. Anyway, sorry, we're going slightly off work here for a second. I got a little bit on my positioning soapbox. Leigh, what else have you seen this week? Well, speaking of talent and keeping it, have you heard of the employability paradox? No. No, well, let me tell you about it because it could actually offer a smart strategy for employers.

for retaining employees maybe getting some more productivity out of them especially when job satisfaction is on a bit of shaky ground with all these RTO mandates so the employability paradox is the idea that promoting employees can increase their loyalty but also

but also make them more attractive to other employers. So ironically, the risk of promoting them might increase the risk of them leaving. So it is a bit of a double-edged sword for leaders. You want to reward your talent, but you also don't want to hand them off to your competitors, right?

But new research published in the Journal of Applied Psychology has offered fresh insights into this dilemma. The study looked at turnover data from over 11,000 managers at large international restaurant chain between 2018 and 2023.

It found that promoting employees early, particularly during employer-friendly labour markets, could actually reduce turnover when the market shifts, then move to favour job seekers. So the key findings were before the Great Resignation, internally promoted managers were slightly less likely to quit jobs

than those hired externally. During the great resignation, when job opportunities surged in 2021, internally promoted managers were 47% less likely to quit compared to their externally hired counterparts. So this suggests that early promotion can create a loyalty buffer that keeps employees grounded even when the job market heats up. So what is the psychology behind it? Well, another experiment with 311

working adults mirrored these findings. So employees were promoted in a simulated scenario. They felt more job security and organizational support, which made them less likely to jump ship when attempting external offer came their way. And what can we learn from it? Well, apparently

maybe we need to prioritize internal promotions instead of defaulting to external hires. Leaders should focus on promoting from within. The study also showed that promoted managers not only stayed longer, but outperformed external hires in revenue generation and team management. The other key is to promote before the market shifts. So

The best time to promote employees is during stable times, not as a knee-jerk reaction to labour shortages. How many people did we hear during the Great Resignation trying to offer late promotions and that ship had sailed? But yes, if we do it at the right time, the approach reinforces loyalty when retention is most critical. And in terms of that long-term view, consistent talent development and clear career pathways helped

to build strong emotional bonds with employees. The strategy not only improves retention, but also it strengthens the entire organisational culture. So this research basically is saying, don't let the paradox scare you too much. Yes, promotions might occasionally lead to departures, but the data is showing that there are exceptions and the benefits of increased loyalty and performance far outweigh the risks. Our thoughts.

Yeah, makes sense. If you look at any kind of sports team, then there's the, you know, the Ronaldo's of the world where they're paid super, super big amounts of money and they'll just jump ship whenever they get a better offer. But then you get the rest of the team who aren't paid maybe quite as much, but they've been brought up through the ranks. And so they feel so much more loyalty to the team. Liverpool, Arsenal, I think are the two examples where they do bring people up through the academy. And yeah, so I think I just got distracted there and like give you a little bit of a...

You know, a little something about football. Well done. Well done. I do like football. I just know nothing about it. So, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And really, it all boils down to just be a decent employer. Be a decent leader. Don't promote people just to stop them from leaving. If they're going to leave, then you've promoted them. And as Leanne said, that's probably where the paradox will come in. Because if they're already thinking about leaving and you've made them, you know, oh, CEO or VP of something. I know there's one particular company we work with where

there's a few VPs, which I'm not sure necessarily should be VPs, then that's controversial. Then that is essentially putting them out like, oh, you know, this person's now a VP, so this is now really important and this is a really important person and you should actually go and get them. Probably quite good for the person who's being promoted because they'll potentially get more money, but probably not so good for the organisation. And I think as well, it's probably the thing, something like this is going to

is going to break this cycle we've been in the past few years of the employees have the power, the employers have the power, the employees have... Do you know what I mean? Like the return to office mandate is a great resignation. It's just power shift. And it's so disruptive. It's so disruptive for organisations and business owners. It's so disruptive for individuals, businesses,

It's just not. One of the most stressful things you can do in life is get a new job. We don't want to be doing that more than is necessary. And we won't be doing it if we're in an organization that treats us well and compensates us fairly and doesn't break our promises around bonuses, Asda. So I think the thing is, if you're in a position now where, all right, the job market is probably favoring the employer, and I think it's going to favor the employer more and more over the next 12 months.

If you use this opportunity to actually look at the talent you have in your organisation, figure out what they want from their career, what they want their next move to be and create these career pathways for them to get it, that loyalty buffer, as the research shows, is going to be there. They're the people that are going to want to stick with you and they're the people that end up being the same organisation for years and years and years because...

they know that they're going to have these opportunities and they're going to be fulfilled. And as an employer, you're actually supporting that and making it happen. I don't understand how we've gotten to this us and them situation.

mentality that seems so deep and ingrained on both sides tiktok you know no better um i think it's just a real shame because we're missing the point actually that work is good for the human experience organizations need people to work to be good that makes more money that makes the economy better and we all we're all thriving from it obviously very simple because then you've got geo global politics to put a layer on and i don't really understand that at all

So yeah, that's my thoughts. Lee, I'm going to stop you there because we have to take a very, very short break. But after this, we're back with this week's hot take, which is from Dr. Elaine Smith. You are going to love this one. See you in a second. Welcome back. Al, what is today's hot take?

Right, we've got a brilliant guest for you today. Today we're joined by Dr. Elaine Smith, who's a clinical psychologist and a business well-being consultant who's all about making workplaces more compassionate. She's a psychological well-being lead at Hope.io and co-founder of Think Resilience, a new leadership retreat launching in East Lothian this April. East Lothian, that's where my granny used to live in East Lothian. Yeah, we had a good chat about Scotland actually. Yeah, I used to love going up there. Davidson's Mains, if you're listening, Dr. Elaine, tell us how far you are from Davidson's Mains. That's where my granny lived.

Anyway, Elaine's work focuses on helping leaders feel more confident about talking about mental health with their teams. Her Creating Compassionate Workplaces course gives leaders the tools they need to support their staff without the fear of saying the wrong thing. With experience in the NHS, corporate HR and her own private practice,

at practice, Dr Elaine knows how much of an impact good leadership can have on mental health at work. She is all about building real human connections that boost staff morale, retention and business success. Dr Elaine, over to you. My hot take is that leaders need support no matter how much they're paid, how senior the role is and how much it looks like we've got it all together. I think from a young age we are

conditioned by others around us to think that adults have got it all together. So when we're kids, you know, so I've long reflected on this, but I think, you know, we think that teachers, for example, have it all together. As in, you know, they don't find life difficult, you know, they don't find the work stressful. I mean, I know there are moments where that doesn't look like that, but just generally, that's the sense I picked up.

And then parents, obviously there's this balance of containment. Parents want to contain their emotions for the children, which is brilliant, but not showing vulnerability is really what I'm saying. So, you know, it brings me to that leaders are human. And I think that sometimes there's that attitude that, well, that's what they get paid the big bucks for.

they can deal with that. If they're stressed, it doesn't matter as much. That's sometimes the feeling or the sense that I've got in different places in the past. And all the research and evidence points to the opposite, actually, that it's completely win-win when we support our leaders.

And when we support them to show vulnerability in the workplace, I mean, obviously the work of Brené Brown is huge in this about leading with vulnerability and the statistics are really high. I mean, 71% of leaders say they want to leave work because of mental health difficulties. 54% feel isolated. I mean, the numbers are huge. It's almost like the evidence is so compelling yet,

There's still few leaders that are showing vulnerability in the workplace. And we also know that that builds connection with people. So if we think somebody has so got it all together that they are not feeling stressed or they don't have the same feelings or experiences as we do, we find it harder to connect to them. Because we like to see people's human parts, don't we? We like to see their imperfections. We like just to see that they're a real person.

And that helps us to connect rather than this person who always looks immaculately put together and doesn't really show much fluctuation and emotion. Why...

Do you think this is becoming more important? Is it the changing sentiment of generations joining the workplace? Is it the rise of social media? We're more aware. Or as you say, are we just getting to a point of poor mental health that something has to be done? I think it's a combination of things, as you say, but I think it's from what I see. It's just what I see is that, I mean, I've had many, many individual clients come to me here in senior leadership positions who just cannot...

feel like they can't even talk about it at all at work they might have disclosed it for the first time to me or they might have told the manager they were off with something else so I think there's very sort of localised problems and there's more organisational problems and as usual there's societal issues but I mean yes Gen Z's probably spurring us on

But definitely something that we need to address. I mean, I was even thinking of examples of leaders who, like big-time leaders like Jacinda Ardern, whenever she, remember she said there was nothing left in the tank. Simone Biles as well, when she took time off for her mental health. And what I find surprising about that is that people find it so surprising

Because we don't see them as human beings. I know there are different examples because they're sort of in the celebrity mix, but they're still people. So I'm always surprised at what we find surprising because I guess I don't see it like that. I just see that we're all people and these pedestals we put people on are just made up. What I'm imagining people will be saying is,

Yeah, you say that we should have compassion for leaders and we should understand that they're human as well. But let's be honest, the CEO to employee salary pay gap has never been bigger. It's huge. We're seeing stories from people like Meta who are laying off

thousands of employees and then increasing their executive bonuses do we should we feel that sorry for these leaders who are making a lot of money while there's so many other people with equal mental health challenges arguably more challenges because they don't have the finances and resources to access support no i definitely think it changes how we view it however if we

do work towards supporting these people no matter what role they're in if we can get to these people to open them up to thinking compassionately about themselves and others maybe in time that'll close the pay gap maybe that's the way in do you know because it's that we need to all be human that needs about relationships if they knew more about the struggles each way

I think that can only be helpful. But of course, what you're saying, I mean, that's never going to be an overnight solution to that. And I get that people will be like, well, it's all right for them. It's all right for them. But sometimes it's not all right for them. They might have money, may have a lot of money, which is one thing. But other than that, we don't see the other struggles that they have. I guess the other thing that I'd

thinking and given the current context you're in, what we're seeing from Trump and Musk and Zuckerberg about this talk of masculine energy needed back in leadership. How does that, how would you work with somebody like that, who is, you know, that type of leader? I can't imagine, I wouldn't know where to start. Where do you start as a clinical psychologist, Elaine? I've talked about this to people before, actually. I think

So there's some people we're not going to convert to this stuff, if you like, to this openness about mental health and wellbeing. I think you always start with education.

And we always start with building the relationship. So if there was somebody like that close, then that's all we can do. We can only try to connect and we can try to understand where they're coming from. Because as we know, as psychologists, all their beliefs have come from somewhere. So we could try to understand them as people. I think that's where we've got to go first, rather than trying to convert them to what we think is right.

which isn't necessarily right. But obviously there are, you know, extreme examples there that you've given that people that, you know, could do a little bit of work in compassionate leadership, we would imagine. Really powerful research there that Dr. Elaine shared. And you might remember this from our episode a little while back with

with Connie Hadley, who's done a lot of research around loneliness. But what Dr. Elaine mentioned there is that 54% of leaders are feeling isolated, 71% are considering leaving due to mental health issues. And that is quite staggering, actually, and often gets overlooked in the workplace culture conversation. Leaders are not immune to

71%, more than two thirds, almost three quarters are thinking of leaving due to mental health issues. This is a problem that is, the shit's going to hit the fan. I have no better way to say it.

Absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And I think that there is that pushback of going, yes, but you know, they're on a million pound a year. So yes, they can put up with that. But that's not really what people should be saying, because it's like saying that somehow if you earn more, you are less human.

So I can see the argument, but it's not exactly sort of as clear-cut as that. We had John Amici, the amazing Professor John Amici, if you've not listened to that episode, go back around Christmastime, episode, say, 150, 155, 155.

Full interview with John. Amazing. But he talks about people expecting leaders to be superhuman. And I think that's the big problem here is that you might expect, again, any kind of a sports analogy. If you've got a leader of a team, then you will expect to be superhuman. And very often they're not. And very often putting that pressure on someone that they can't make any mistakes and they can't have any sort of down days, you know, that's a big problem. Yeah, and it is interesting, isn't it, that psychologically we're kind of programmed differently.

in this way from childhood. It's like if you see a toddler fall over,

Then they're picked up like, you're okay, you're okay, don't worry about it, you're okay. And it's like, I understand because you don't want to kind of create too much drama around that situation. But equally, what you're teaching a child from a very young age is keep those emotions in. Don't let any emotions out. You're fine, you're fine, it's okay. And it kind of follows us throughout adulthood. And I think particularly, maybe it's changing now, but particularly for women in the workplace, when I first joined work,

The last thing you wanted to do was be emotional because that was weakness in what was, you know, a much more masculine workplace environment then. And I think it does create this cycle where leaders can't think that they can show vulnerability. Their teams can't connect with them authentically. And the real...

shift now we did some research about 12 18 months ago in partnership with a client and we actually found that overwhelmingly gen z and millennials are now looking for leaders in their life who are investing in their own mental health is in the leader invests in their mental health as a leader because they know that if that's the expectation that's set at that level then there as an employee my mental health is going to get invested in because there's a role model there and and i think it's that

shift that we're seeing and you can you can kick and scream and demand that people get back into the office and call for more masculine workplaces and call people snowflakes and entitled but the reality is if as things stand now 75% of your senior people are considering leaving because they're on the verge of burnout

Something has to change. If you want to learn more about Dr. Elaine Smith, then go to thinkresilience.co.uk. And if you want to know more about the course, Creating Compassionate Workplaces, all the details are on drelainesmith.com. We'll check the show notes for a link that'll take you directly there. Okay, it's my favorite time of the week. It is time for the workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. I should be able to say that by now, who is an expert in workplace culture. I'm not sure what word I almost said there.

Fun fact, Leanne has now answered almost 150 of your questions so far over the last 40 seconds. I've not got paid a penny. Honestly. Well, I think our sponsorship deal would beg to differ. Sorry, HubSpot. Love you, HubSpot. Please don't go anywhere. Love you, love you. Don't go anywhere. So the last 47...

I'm trying to tell people some stats. Almost 150 questions over 47 episodes. Oh, does that mean the surgery is almost a year old? Yes, almost a year old. We're on question one for this week or 142 if we're being specific. Are you ready for it, Leigh? Yes.

Okay, from friend to boss, how to lead without losing your mates? This is a UK question, hence the word mate. That's what UK and Australians call friends or buddies if you're across the water. Like Australians say mate? Yeah, that's what I said, UK and Australian. Oh, so it's...

You're here to answer questions, not here to tell me how I should be telling them. Okay, so this question says, I've recently been promoted to team lead, managing a group of eight people, including three former co-workers, uh-oh, who I used to socialize with regularly. One of them keeps undermining me in meetings by making sarcastic comments when I delegate tasks or suggest process changes. I don't want to damage our friendship, but I'm worried the rest of the team is starting to pick up on this dynamic. Is there a way to establish my authority...

We'll come back to that. Without coming across as power hungry or destroying relationship value. No. Right. Next question. Well, there you go. I mean, let's be honest. This person seems to be approaching management slightly the wrong way. They need to listen to Thursday where we talk all about management and the first 30, 60 and 90 days of being a manager. A phenomenal episode, if I say so myself.

but I think what they're seeing to do is like going, I'm the boss, why you listen to me when I stand up and tell you do something, you go and do it. That seems to be a wrong approach, Lee. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it is. Yes, yes, it is. And there's not, you can't stamp your authority to gain respect from somebody. It just doesn't, doesn't really work like that. The equal challenge is I've been in this situation and I've been in organizations where roles have changed so much that at one point we're all,

The next minute, somebody's my manager. The next minute, I'm their manager. The next minute, it's... So I understand that the dynamic can be very, very tricky. And I think the reality is you're always going to have that one person who their thirst for power is greater. So they're not going to be happy that you're now their manager because...

they want that power they want that position or they want the opportunity or they're not going to take orders from you because this time last week I was bossing you around type thing and you just get people like that who have that ego that just want it that way to their detriment a lot of the time they'll put their faith in other people that will end up screwing them over much much more um there's just people like that you're gonna have to just chalk it off as that's life and the only thing you can do with somebody like that really say look what can I do to make your job easier

What can I do to either give you more resources, take any barriers away just to make this work? For example, are there certain tasks that are taking up far more of your time that I might be able to help you with? Are there certain things that in terms of processes that are bugging you that maybe I can speak to a senior leader about or a different team about? You're going to still require their buy-in to share those things with you. But if you're constantly asking them, what can I do today? Or if they end up moaning about something or if they say, oh, I didn't do that because I had to do this.

Okay, great. Well, this is a perfect example, person, about how you can offload something to me. Being a great manager is as much about delegation as it is about taking things off the hands of your people if they need to. Their time is better invested elsewhere.

So this has to be an ongoing conversation. You're not going to fix it overnight. Over time, things can get better and get more, build civility in that relationship. So they're kind of like they're mocking you and calling you out. That's incivility. And that's not cool. It's not okay. And the only way to...

to really do that in a way that is going to preserve this relationship long term is flipping it back on them what can I do to make your job easier if they continue to throw it back in your face and get even more and more toxic then that's a performance management conversation that you you manage further down the line but first of all that's how you want to approach it and that's how you'd approach with every single member of your team not just the ones that you used to be a peer with or you used to be mates with this is what

great managers do it's called empathic concern what can I do to make your job easier today and there's also always going to be boundaries within that you can't do everything you don't want to take on too much that you're overwhelmed but there's an opportunity here particularly from somebody who's been in their role and been that position for you to use your knowledge of the role use your knowledge of the team to actually come up with some ideas as well and go do you know what always used to bug me is this

This is what I'm thinking could be a potential solution. What do you think? Would that help the rest of the team? I'm really coming at it that way. That would be my advice equally. I've been there.

Some people I brought around and were on my side and then lost their shiz when I got promoted and they had to get another manager in. And then other people that I never went around. And it's just the way it is. But ultimately, if you know you're doing everything you can to support the performance, productivity and well-being of your team,

And that's all you can judge yourself by as a manager. People always have their opinions. But I think that a lot of people think, oh, I'm now your boss, so you work for me. In actual fact, the greatest managers in the world kind of work for their team. And they sort of invert the pyramid, the traditional corporate pyramid. But more of that on Thursday. I know I keep trailing Thursday's episode. It's going to be a good one. I really, really liked it.

Okay, so question number two, the unlimited holiday trap. Perfect on paper, riots in reality. Our company...

I love that headline. I actually asked ChatGPT, no, actually it's Claude, for some help with some headline for that one, and it came up with this, and I thought it was really good. Our company recently implemented an unlimited holiday policy that sounded great on paper, but has created chaos in practice. Some team members are barely taking any time off because there's no clear guidance on what is acceptable, while others are disappearing for weeks with minimal notice.

As a middle manager, I'm caught between senior leadership who think the policy is progressive and my team who are increasingly resentful of the inconsistency. Oh, I like this idea of inconsistency. How do I navigate this whether undermining company policy or burning out my team? Lee, there's a lot to unpick here. We don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We don't know how to deal with it, how to react to it. It's just not, it's not great. The intention behind an unlimited holiday policy is really, I get it, I get it.

But again, it's one of those things that it's not really an unlimited holiday policy, is it? Because if it was really an unlimited holiday policy, I'm on holiday all the time. What are you going to do about it? It's not, is it?

Do you know, we were talking to Ed Sweet-Williams about this. Do you remember his episode, Alan? And Candy Kittens at the time, I don't know what it is now, but at the time had a unlimited holiday policy and they were struggling with the same challenges that some people were taking. More their concern was some people were not taking enough holidays, were not building in that rest and recovery time.

the the fact is we have a statutory number of holidays in the UK for a reason to make sure people get that rest and recovery time that is that not just the simple thing as part of your policy you have to take a minimum of x number of holidays or actually rethinking the whole policy and kind of going do we want unlimited holiday or we just want to call it 30 would that everyone be happy with that it's hard if you're a middle manager because you've you've not

put in this policy by the sound of it and you've probably not got the the power to overrule it but I think you're well within your rights and really responsibilities as a middle manager to go to your senior leader and say these are the problems I'm seeing this is the impact it's having this I've spoken to my team and we actually think that this would be a better solution and ultimately the people that are maybe taking more holidays well as long as they're still hitting all their performance measures as long as they're still delivering the work they need to in the time that they've got available to them

That is what the policy allows. So, you know, it's talking to people about why aren't they taking their holidays? Is it because they don't feel able to deliver the outcomes in the time that they've got, that it does disturb their productivity, that they just feel bad about taking a holiday? We often see that as well with people who are new to the business, might be reluctant to take holidays.

holiday it's as much about having those one-to-one conversations with your team to understand why people feel comfortable to take more leave and why they're not and then taking that to your managers and saying i know the policy was put in with the best of intentions i think it needs more clarity i think it needs more guidelines or i think actually it needs to be scrapped in and replaced by this

It's totally understandable. It's very common from what I've heard with other organizations that have an unlimited holiday policy. This is just a bit of snagging. It's a bit nitpicking. It's about figuring out what's working, what's not, and how to make it better. And I think that's, as we've just said, that's management 101, isn't it? What's working, what's not, and how to make it better.

Yeah, absolutely. And you've got your own team, so you could just speak to your team and go, right, well, look, it's in theory unlimited, but let's all agree that we're going to take a certain number of days in this team. This is how we do things around here. And just agree it. And I think Leanne's right. It's

The problem with Unlimited is that there's always going to be someone with the biggest cigar. There's always going to be someone who's going to take more time off. And then that just puts... We talked about last week, the guy who came in when I worked in the office, the guy who came in, did two hours and more sales in two hours than the rest of it. You'd have thought that would... Rising Tide didn't. It just made us feel really resentful. So, yeah, there's a...

There's two parts to this. There's how do we manage unlimited holiday time? And then there's, all right, if that's the expectation, if that's like the barrier, that's what the company has said, then potentially you can implement a different policy in your team and just keep it quiet. I'm not saying go out there and say, this is not the policy, this is now company policy, but it's your team, you know, just make it how you want to. Okay, Lee, question number three, the HR battleground, HR professional caught in the middle of a company war.

Fight, fight, fight. So my workplace has become extremely polarized over a recent company decision to eliminate flexible working hours for certain departments. Is this from Google? I don't think it's from Google. I

As an HR director, I'm receiving heated emails from both sides, some claiming it's destroying work-life balance, others saying the previous system was inefficient. My inbox has become a battleground and people are expecting me to either champion their cause or explain the company reasoning, which I wasn't involved in. I'm caught between genuinely trying to help my co-workers...

I'm doing my HR bit. And then leadership insisting that I'm the one who roll out these changes, which is the transactional part of the leadership. What the heck am I supposed to do for the best? Should I even pick a side? No, don't pick a side. It's not your job to really pick a side, is it? It's your job to try and, try and, try and,

implement these things in the best way that you can. And this is something I hear a lot from HR partners actually, is that kind of rock and hard place type scenario. There are some people that will say, well, you know, as a HR leader, you're there to

You work for the business, not for the employee. You're there to make the policies happen. There are other leaders that I might be more inclined to count with who would say, well, actually, it's my job to, yes, you know, execute these policies, but in a way that actually serves the workforce. Because I know if we do that, it's going to ultimately be better for the business. This person didn't say where they are, did they? No. Looking at the language...

I think it is an American spelling of things. I'm going to guess America. I mean, if you are in the UK or Europe, your rights are different in terms of flexible working. That was built in into policy of the last government policy last 12 months or so. So you do have a legal right to request flexible working if you have.

reasonable reasons and need those adjustments. If the US, I'm sorry, I'm not saying I agree with the work culture in the United States of America, but it's a very different beast and flexible working and human led initiatives don't seem to necessarily be prioritized in these times.

What do you do? I guess really you've got to stick to the rule book in terms of executing this policy. That's what you're employed to do in an organisation like this. That's not to say you can't speak to people and empathise. It's not to say that you can't maybe...

think about some out-the-box ways that you could potentially offer flexible working without having to offer flexible working and really that's going to be talking to your people um and I guess it's how strict this flexible working is isn't it like if it's a

It might be, I don't know, for example, is there a way to go, right, we're still not going to, everyone's still going to come into the office because apparently that's a thing. Everyone's still going to do six jobs a week because apparently that's a thing as well. But half people are going to work seven till four and then some people are going to work nine till seven. And just seeing if there's any patterns of these frustrated employees coming to you in terms of what,

they're having to sacrifice or how their life is made more difficult by this flexibility going away. It could be caring responsibilities. It could be something around a disability. It could be something around family commitments. It could be around travel. It could be around the costs of travel at peak time. There's lots of different things that people could be kicking off about in terms of flexibility. Once you get past the fact that people are just kicking off because it's a change that they didn't want.

and they're still going through that psychological transition. Don't forget, change is external, it's done to us very quickly. Psychological transition, we need to get through to accept that change is much slower. And with that comes a lot of anger, a lot of resentment, a lot of frustration. That's just people working through that psychological transition equally during that time. There might be some themes and patterns you can pick up on, but actually, if you could maybe just tweak this new policy a little bit, it might

But the majority of people might make a difference. Collect your data, be curious, have the conversations. But ultimately, it's your job to execute

workplace policies as a HR practitioner and if you're working for an organisation where it is being mandated and they're not particularly interested in that consultation before the change is made it's not great but it is what it is and maybe maybe start brushing up your CV as well fundamentally you feel this is an incorrect way to manage HR and people and culture in an organisation then maybe it's a point of reflection for you as well in terms of finding a better fit for you to be a HR partner leader somewhere else

I love how Leanne's cut to the real chase of this. It's not that it's a tough decision. It's more that it's a change that has been done to people. It doesn't sound as much consultation of the was. It'd be worse because they've ignored it and people are just unhappy with it. There's a great episode with a lady called

Hilary Scarlett, Dr. Hilary Scarlett, I think. She's a neuroscientist and she talks about the neuroscience of change and what happens when you actually implement change. It's definitely worth spinning back and having a listen to. I want to say somewhere around about 160, 170, something like that. But just search for Hilary Scarlett, you'll find it. But yeah, good luck with it because this sounds like a tough thing that you can't really go, oh, do this.

And you fixed it. But as Leanne said, your job is likely to implement the policies that the leaders come up with. You're very nice by taking on all the complaints about it and trying to resolve them. But a great leader will say, I totally understand what you're saying. Let me go and look at the fine print of this and see if there is a way that we can actually do what you want to do.

the framework that has been handed down from the gods above and that's a really nice and a good way to be a great manager. Lee, anything to add before we say goodbye? Nothing to add. Okay, well coming up this Thursday we have an amazing interview with a guy, I've teased it already, who's got millions and perhaps hundreds of millions of views across social media. He's an expert on management. So if you've ever wanted to be a manager or you're a

about to become a manager, or you want to know what great managers look like, then this episode takes you through the first 90 days of being a new manager. All the stuff you should do, all the stuff you should not do, what mistakes people make, and what great managers do. It is genuinely a great one. I think you're going to absolutely love it. And even if you are an existing manager, there's loads in there for you. I think you're going to love it.

Yep, so we're back on Thursday with that. We're back next Tuesday, as we always are, quite predictably, with another episode of This Week in Work. If you have a question that you'd like me to answer, a news article you'd like us to rant about, or a hot take, get in touch. All of our details are in the show notes. Find us on LinkedIn. Maybe write a little post about something you've enjoyed. Maybe say to Dr Elaine, that was a great hot take. I love it. And I really want to come on your course. All the links for that are in the show notes as well.

Like, subscribe, wherever you find or listen to your podcasts. Is that it? Any more admin? I don't think so. Just a big hello to my mum who grew up in East Lothian. Hi, Pat. So if you're listening to this, mum, then you'll recognise the accent from Dr Elaine. Yes, I think that's everything. We will see you next week. And as ever, if there's any, if you've got good things to say, put them publicly. If you've got bad things to say, maybe just send us an email. See you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye.