177. Your first 90 days as a new manager, with Vince Sanderson
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The primary job of a manager is to create an environment for other people to excel. So how are you going to do that? I mean, that's the biggest issue that people find. They get promoted.

they're not entirely sure what to do but then there's very high expectations without much guidance in order to do it and they go home and they're tired and they're struggling to motivate themselves to go out and have fun and they're checking emails at all sorts of hours and then telling other people not to do it but then doing that themselves in order to keep on top of the workload that they've created for themselves and that is a very quick way to burn out something like 72 percent of

Gen Z don't want to become managers anymore because they're seeing the stress that middle management is put under, the expectations,

that are unfair on people. Your job is to understand the people, the culture. It's not my job to be right. It is our job to get it right. A lot of people who've been newly promoted as a manager will end up managing people who used to be their peers. Yes. So talk me through, what are the pitfalls with that? What should they be doing? What should they not be doing? How did Vince manage his first 30 days? What does it feel like? You mentioned you had imposter syndrome. Did that ever go away as a manager?

What would you say are the absolute essentials that this person needs to know before they start on Monday? It comes up so often on social media, people asking about this. And my kind of go-to tips around this, having been through this situation myself, is...

Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by who? The HubSpot Podcast Network. They're the audio destination of business professionals, if you weren't sure. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist. My name is Al. I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work and...

create amazing workplace coaches yes we are welcome welcome hello welcome to you if you're new and thank you for coming back if you've been here before hope you're having a good week today we are joined by vince sanderson a management leadership and team consultant with incredible expertise in helping businesses develop effective leadership skills and build exceptional teams vince has also built quite a following online with over a quarter of a million followers across tick tock

Instagram and YouTube, where he regularly shares valuable insights on leadership challenges that many people struggle to navigate. We're going to be talking about your first, as a new manager, your first 30 days, your first 60 days, and your first 90 days. And it's going to be essentially a great masterclass in how to be a great manager. So let's join the interview where Vince and Al talk about the first 30 days of being a manager. Yes. So lovely to meet you, Al. My name's Vince Anderson. So I am

a management leadership and team consultant. So I go into businesses and help them develop effective leadership management and build exceptional teams. I originally started as a teacher and transitioned over to management and leadership over a number of years. And I'm probably most famous for my social media presence. So having well over a quarter of a million followers on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and I try and put out as much value

as I can around leadership, management and team questions that people don't necessarily know how to answer themselves. I think the first question I've got is, it's around new managers, because there seems to be like, I think someone who becomes a new manager, they think, great, I've made it, I've finally become a manager. But there's there's must be some misconceptions there. So what sort of are the biggest misconceptions new managers have about being a manager, a new manager? Oh, it's easy. It's going to be easy.

That's what people think. The US society, it's almost like the term manager has become like the

the modern day car salesman that you're going to be caught out that they're there to make your life difficult and to force you into something that you don't really want to do and so I think there's an element that people see management as a very relaxed easy job where you just sit in a few meetings whenever any difficult work comes in you pass it to somebody else to do and that's really it and so then when people do become a manager and they realize oh it's really not like that it's

really high pressure job and you're squeezed between a lot of different competing priorities and your needs often become the last thing in that priority list

people get very stressed and then they're not given much guidance on it. So it's much harder than people anticipate it's going to be. Is there a kind of a number one mistake you see? I know you've said that there's the different misconception, but what about a number one mistake that new managers tend to make? Is there something you see that a lot of people do? Probably the most common is that they end up becoming a fixer. They try and please too many people

And the fastest way to do that is to essentially go, don't worry about it. I'll sort that out. I'll cover that. I'll make that happen in an effort to

fit in to the team or an effort to see like they're not going to be like old managers. I don't want to be, you know, a dictator. I don't want to rule with power. And therefore, I'm going to try and please as many people as I can. And that is a very quick way to burn out. I mean, as I mentioned, I started off in teaching and this is something that I certainly fell into and lots of teachers do where they go into the job thinking they're going to change the world. And

in the first year you've got so much energy and enthusiasm to do it and then you realise that's really hard and it's not sustainable and I think managers fall into many managers certainly younger managers fall into that same pitfall that they don't want to be this stereotypical manager and so they give so much of themselves that they end up

losing themselves a little bit and feeling very stressed out and it affects their personal lives as well and they go home and they're tired and they're struggling to motivate themselves to go out and have fun and they're checking emails at all sorts of hours and then telling other people not to do it

but then doing it themselves in order to keep on top of the workload that they've created for themselves. Did you find that there was any, that it helped you training as a teacher to become a manager or in some of your work today? In a small sense, I would say what it prepares you for is being generally more comfortable and confident with a bit of conflict. People

people not following instructions or needing a little bit of guidance or feedback. It certainly made me more comfortable in presenting. And so going off and so I, you know, my route into a lot of this work was through training. So I was very comfortable training. But in terms of the

The nitty gritty of management and making sure that people are performing as well as we hope and the health of the organization and processes are running smoothly, probably there's less of a direct link there. It takes a lot of effort.

Again, it's harder than people anticipate it's going to be. Well, let's go on to the first segment of three, the first of three. Your first 30 days as a brand new manager. So someone's just been promoted. They're about to start their role on Monday. What would you say are the absolute essentials that this person needs to know before they start on Monday? Have a good relationship with IT.

because something's going to go wrong. Or make sure you've got your laptop set up before you start, if you can, all of those types of things, because the amount of times it causes a nightmare. But on a more serious note, it would probably, on day one, or at least the first couple of days, make sure you're going and meeting everyone that you're going to regularly interact with. Most people will just think, it's my vertical team, the people that directly report into me. I'm going to spend time with them. Do that. But you also need to meet

your IT department, again, if you've got a larger organization, the person that you're going to interact with most, your direct manager, any side departments, if you're part of, and this kind of links into 60 and 90 days as well, that you're no longer part of just a team. You're part of a lateral team, which means the decisions that you make

can have a direct impact on someone else's team. So you need to have a really good relationship with your lateral managers as well. And sometimes people forget that. They put so much time and effort into nurturing the relationships in their vertical team, and then it creates, unfortunately, quite siloed and competing departments if we're not careful. So day one, meet the people on your lateral team. So just get a really good 360 perspective

overview of who you're going to interact with daily and go out and meet them virtually face to face however it is put in some effort to interact with them we're going to come back to the manager's manager in a second yeah but before we do that a lot of people who've been newly promoted to manager will be end up managing people who they used to be their peers yes people they used to work with so talk me through what are the pitfalls with that what should they be doing what should they not be doing

It is such a nerve-wracking position for most people to be in. It comes up so often on social media, people asking about this. And my kind of go-to tips around this, having been through this situation myself, is don't avoid the elephant in the room. There is going to be potentially...

Depending on the nature of your organization, the nature of the people in the team, there will potentially be a little bit of awkwardness. Certainly if you were competing with one of your colleagues for that position and they didn't get it, expect them to be a bit upset.

a bit frustrated and not get over that straight away. If they do, amazing. You don't have to do anything about it. But if you expect people to be fine, you might be in for a bit of a shock when people are colder, distant, the relationship has changed. So give people a bit of time and space to work through that, but also offer some support around it. And the easiest thing that you can do is just have a conversation around it. Certainly if you have been promoted,

just within the first few days, talk around how your job has now changed. Say things like your intention is not to completely change the culture of the organization, change the culture of the team, that what you know about the team, you're going to take all of the good stuff forward. But that doesn't mean that you will, and I think this is not necessarily something that you say out loud, but certainly as a manager, you need to be aware of. You're now probably going to be

removed from some conversations and you should probably do that yourself anyway but you're what you think you know about the team is going to change and so you've still got to be willing to listen and understand people's perspectives and not think i understand i know that because i was once part of the team i know what your struggles are because i've been there

You only know your version of the struggles and they can change because you're now the new manager. So having the willingness to have these conversations and still listen

It is such an important part of showing that you are going to be someone that essentially the primary job of a manager is to create an environment for other people to excel. So how are you going to do that? You might need to talk about some of the implicit issues that come up with you being a manager. I feel like we could just leave it there. I feel like that's a mic drop moment. I love that. We will definitely be coming back to that.

Let's talk a little bit about what people tend to spend too much time on. What do they tend to fixate on? It's probably linked back to something I mentioned earlier, where people are enthusiastic. And so because they want to make a great impression, they run at 110%. And do you know what? You can do that for 30 days, but you can't do it for 90 days or a year. And therefore, a couple of things happen. You end up burning out.

and you create the wrong impression that you're always available, that you're going to be motoring at this speed continuously. And therefore, you might be A, inauthentic, and B, setting the wrong tone for the rest of the team, that you're always going to be there. Every meeting that you are going to do is going to be 110%, and it's just not possible. So it's better to

consciously think what is my normal style of working stick to that and go at the pace that i think is sustainable in the long run and if that means that you're slightly slower to get into certain goals that's okay if it means that in the long run you're much faster

Kind of tortoise in the hair analogy. What about managing upwards? So what about you? So you've now got a boss. You've had a boss before. You're now a manager, but you've got a manager above you. What sort of tips do you have for, is it called managing upwards? Yes. I think that's what most people will, certainly what I refer to it. So managing upwards. I'm going to share something that I recognize might ruffle a few feathers.

But I think it's quite an important thing to try and understand. Regardless of whether you're a manager or a team member, whatever position you are underneath the CEO, you were hired to solve a problem for that person, not be a problem.

And so many people misunderstand the manager-team member relationship or manager-senior manager. Whoever you report into, you're there primarily to help them achieve the goals that they have, and they are there to help the person that they report into achieve the goals that they have. And if you don't understand what they're trying to achieve, it's unlikely that you will be clear and focused on making that happen.

And if you're not clear and focused, then it's probably not going to trickle down to the

the direct reports that you have. So if you want to be able to manage up and have a really effective relationship, professional relationship where you're getting the most out of each other, then understanding it's a symbiotic relationship. I need to provide value to you and then in return you're going to provide value to me. For me to do that, I've really got to understand your goals, your style of working, your strengths, where I might provide extra value in areas that you're trying to develop.

And so you're going to have to sit and talk about these things. The difficulty is if you do have a manager that you're trying to manage up and they have no interest in this. And that's really tough. And there's no quick way around that. Other than you might want to speak to some of their lateral peers. How can I help them? I feel like I'm hitting a bit of a brick wall with them. One of the tough things is always trying to remain optimistic and positive about these things, even when you're hitting a brick wall.

It might be frustrating with your manager, but other people watch. How is Vince handling this? He's trying to connect with Al and Al's not being receptive. I can see that, but Vince is still working at it. He's still providing value. He's coming and talking to us about it.

People notice that and it's memorable and it puts you in a very good place for any further work that you may do. So how did Vince, literally, how did Vince manage his first 30 days? What does it feel like? It was a long time ago. I don't know whether I can remember my first 30 days other than being flustered and panicked and having massive imposter syndrome and

I didn't, I'll be honest, I didn't know what I was doing. All that I thought, kind of again naively, thought that managing was really just going to be doing more of the same work, but then with just a little bit of extra responsibility and a bit more pay, you know, and that's all that we're after. And so I think what I probably did in the first 30 days was not very much of any use other than

you know talking to people and trying to get my head around things and there's nothing wrong with that you should talk to people and try and understand it but having a very clear plan of action of what you're trying to achieve in the first 30 60 90 days is really going to help you out and you don't have to work that out yourselves again on your first day when you're meeting

the people that you might report directly into or people that you connect with a lot. One of the questions that I would ask them is over the next 30, 60, 90 days, the next year, in our interactions, what has worked well from the previous person that was in my role that you want to keep going and what do you think could be improved upon?

How can we make this even better? How could I provide even more value to you? What are some of the problems that you're facing that I can resolve as soon as possible that make your life easier? And it will give you a very clear process of, right, I need to tackle this, this, this, and this within the next few months. You mentioned you had imposter syndrome. Yes. Does that ever go away as a manager? Yes, I think it does, but it's maybe not as quick as people hope it will be.

Maybe imposter syndrome is not necessarily a bad thing. There's an element of humility with it. I recognize that maybe I'm not as good as I need to be, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Because the opposite of imposter syndrome would be overconfidence.

and therefore not willing to acknowledge your weaknesses, not willing to listen to other people, not willing to defer to expertise that people have. And I think that causes much more problems than the new manager feeling like an imposter because I hope that it gave me a bit of impetus to work at developing credibility, developing my knowledge, developing my external confidence and my internal confidence. And so,

Yeah, I think it has disappeared, but not in every aspect. So there may be still things that I feel, oh, do you know what? I talked about that yesterday, but I don't think I've got a full grasp of it to the level that I want. I need to do some work on that.

And that's what we want for any manager or leader is, as John Maxwell says, leadership isn't built in a day, it's built daily. And that's one of the core skills that we need for managers is the willingness to learn, whether that's going off and reading something or willingness to learn from other people. It makes the biggest difference. Before we move on to the 60 days, why do you think people want to become managers? It sounds to me like it's going to be a really tough job that I don't really want. Absolutely.

Well, Gen Z are agreeing with you. There was a recent study done that showed that, I can't remember the exact stats, somebody will be able to pull it up, I'm sure, that something like 72% of Gen Z don't want to become managers anymore because they're seeing the stress that middle management is put under, the expectations that are unfair on people, then the perception of what managers do. So, you know, managers are having to do all of this

but then they're viewed as kind of like, oh, you're a manager in many people's views. And so I

Why would anyone want to be a manager, coming back to that question? Because it is an amazing job in the right culture, in the right organization, and it's a very hard job when the culture doesn't support managers and looks down on them and doesn't provide them the right training and the right resources. I mean, that's the biggest issue that people find. They get promoted, they're not entirely sure what to do, but then there's very high expectations without much guidance in order to do it.

and they get met with, well, that's what I hired you to work out. That's what I hired you to do. So why would people want to become a manager? If you care about people, if you like people, you like working with them, I think it really can hit the nail on the head for that. You can provide a lot of support. You can provide coaching. You can see people grow and develop.

The counter argument to that is you are often supporting people through really difficult times. This is why I think it's so important that any manager, if you're managing two, three, four, 20 people, you've got to like them. You've got to care about people. Otherwise, it's going to feel like, and I hear this a lot on management training over the years, this feels like a babysitting job. And I think that's a really dangerous thing

narrative to start telling yourself because as soon as you start thinking that way you will see every difficulty that someone faces as here we go another thing that I've got to help resolve another problem that's coming up

So you've got to care about people. And if you do, you might like management. If you like trying to find, improve efficiencies, find quicker ways of doing things, find ways of reducing the resources needed to achieve the same goals, management is really good for that as well. So I guess the simplest way of summing it up is if you like people, if you like seeing people develop, if you like creating efficiency and

finishing pieces of work off if you're a good complete to finisher you like seeing projects turn into something making it happen then management is a very rewarding job

After this short break, Al and Vince continue to talk about the 90-day management journey and what you need to have in place by day 30 and day 90. Welcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where Vince breaks down the steps you should have nailed by day 60 and day 90. So first 30 days, we've done it. We've nailed it. We've followed all of Vince's advice and we feel like, yes, we're looking good. Next 30 days. So we're in our first 60 days now. So 30 to 60 days.

what is the difference do you think the first 30 days can be summed up as learning your job is to understand the people the culture what you're stepping into and not falling into the trap of well i already worked here and so i fully understand everything you don't you're looking at it from a different point of view and you're going to have very different interactions

If the first 30 days is learning, 60 to 90 days is refining processes. And so there's a question that's quite useful to kind of start day 30 to 60 on, which is where might there be gaps between what we say is important and what we spend time on?

and just getting everyone to review what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. A lot of work that people do is almost like a Frankenstein process. It's an amalgamation of what previous people thought was interesting or what they wanted to see. And you can often really refine it down into what is our core purpose in this team or your core purpose in your role? Do you feel like you're working towards that?

very clearly on a day-to-day basis? If the answer is no, let's review it. Let's improve it so that your work feels more meaningful to you. And that's a huge part of that

that next 30 days. So what we're saying is that if you can just, first 30 days, finally putting learning, second sort of like days 32, 33, if you want to ensure that everyone knows what their reason is, what their purpose is in their job. Yeah. Sounds like a really cool early win. Is there any other kind of early wins that someone can do in those sort of 30 to 90 days, 30 to 60 days? The ones that have the biggest impact in early wins are usually around people.

Because this is my opinion, people will have a different philosophical approach when it comes to management. I am a people first manager. I believe if you get the right people on the bus and put them in the right seat and give them a real clarity around what they're trying to achieve,

making sure that they've got clear metrics to work towards. They're important, but making sure that people feel valued and respected. And that's not necessarily easy within 30 to 60 days. And so I guess my answer to a quick win is really thinking about, Stephen Covey calls it an emotional bank account between you and another person.

So looking for ways to invest in that bank account, what can you do to provide value to other people? Because at some point in the next year, you are going to take out of it. You're going to ask more of someone because it's the nature of the job sometimes. And you need to know that you've got reserves in there because if you haven't, you're going to go into debt with them and it's much harder to get out of that.

So as much as it's not necessarily a quick win, it's probably the most important thing to be doing is thinking, what can I do to deposit into our bank account between each person that I work with so they can see I am someone that's going to provide value to them first before asking value from them. Can you give us maybe an example of how that might work? So something I could deposit before I withdrew? Yeah, I mean...

It sounds silly and some people go, oh, really? But making sure that you have one-to-ones with people. And the reason that I say that is, I'll just use social media as an example. I put out quite a few things around questions in one-to-ones or running effective one-to-ones. And there are always a number of comments that are around, oh, one-to-ones are a waste of time. I don't care about people. I don't want to talk to my manager. I don't want my manager to talk to me and things like that.

So there's certainly a, for some people, a bit of a, I don't see any value in them. But a one-to-one shouldn't be for status updates. I can get that at any point. I'll just send you a Slack message.

Or someone should be tracking what they're doing anyway, and we can all see where someone's up to. So status updates, if we're having to ask for them, something else is going wrong. But there's another conversation. I always put it as a percentage. 75% should be providing value to the person who's one-to-one it is. And 25% should be, if it's even that, me getting value out of it. So what frustrations are you facing? How can I help you unblock them?

if you want to talk around um you know how people getting to know people on a on a deeper level and when i say deeper i'm not talking about crossing any boundaries here but even just understanding what's important to them in life whether this has to be in a one-to-one you know again it depends on the nature of your work sometimes you can get it just in conversation but

You might be someone who manages a team that are very transient and they're all over the place. And so one-to-one is real protected time to build relationships with them. But knowing who's in their family, what's important to them, what do they want from life?

Don't underestimate how much value you can deposit into someone's bank account by being willing to know about them, being interested in them as a person and not just seeing them as someone that is here to provide value to me and nothing more.

very, very transactional. I pay your wage so you should give me everything that you can and I have no interest in you in a person. I think that's the fastest way to not deposit anything in a bank account. If you want to provide value to someone else, the simplest and fastest way is to start being curious and interested in them and proving that you actually care about them as a person. The single greatest factor between building trust

trust between a manager and a team member was that the team member felt that the manager cared about them. And unfortunately, I've met a number of managers that think that that is irrelevant in the workplace. And I

wholeheartedly disagree. Your idea is a one-to-one and the whole idea is you go, what obstacles can I remove to make your job easier? Yeah. I think a lot of new managers and possibly existing managers might be worried about asking that because then the person might say, well, I need you to sort this out and they can't. Yes. There's a risk there if you're saying, let me help you and you go, I can't. Does that make you look weaker as a manager or what? This is a common backslash

barrier or issue that new managers certainly come up against and the easiest way to answer that is the single most important thing you can do here as a manager is be transparent about what's possible what's within your remit and what's not sometimes you're going to have to ask people to commit to things that they don't fully agree with and one of the the only ways of doing that is for people to feel heard and understood so if someone asks for something that's not possible

Don't just immediately say no that's not possible. Understand what they're trying to achieve, what needs are going to be met through this mechanism and can we find a different way of still meeting those needs? I'll explore that with you and the answer and I'll say this up front, the answer may still be no but let's explore it together and if it is no hopefully you'll leave the meeting knowing that I explored every option with you.

And you understand why it has to be a no this time. So I think a lot of new managers want to sort of apply their stamp onto something. Yes. So how do you balance implementing new ideas without totally disrupting or destroying something that previously was working well, like a culture or a system? I mean, this is a great example of that transition from 30 to the 60-day plan is...

You won't stamp your authority and you won't destroy something that was useful and providing value if you've listened and understood what people want to keep, what's already working well, and your job then is to enhance what's there.

Now, there are going to be times when a manager, but this is probably going to be a much more seasoned manager, is headhunted in to resolve a core problem that a team or department is facing. And that might be slightly different. But I would still say within the first 30 days, the role of the manager is to understand

the problem right down to its root cause. And the only way of understanding is to explore and listen to people and find out what's going on here before you then offer, this is the way we're going to resolve it. Okay, so let's talk about the thorny subject of feedback. As a new manager, you're now needed to give feedback, both positive and probably negative, to people who you maybe used to work with.

So how are we getting that right in your 30 to 60 days? So when you're providing feedback in the first 30, 60, even 90 days, one of the things that every manager needs to be mindful of is the culture in which the feedback sits. Are people going to be a little defensive? Are people going to sit there and nod along and then not do anything with it?

And so what you've got to be really mindful of is your job primarily is not the feedback. It's creating a culture where these conversations are not seen as awkward or tricky or difficult. That feedback, guidance, coaching, whatever word you want to call it, is an absolutely normal part of how we converse with each other.

And so if I'm going to provide feedback to you, Al, I need to make sure that I'm first encouraging you to provide feedback to me, which is awkward. People aren't used to it, but it's part of the whole culture that we're looking for. This is a two-way dynamic. Our job is, well, actually, I think Steve Jobs says this, but I may have misattributed it. It's not my job to be right. It is our job to get it right.

And that means we're going to have to challenge each other. It means we're going to have to provide feedback to each other. So the first 30 days, I wouldn't be or haven't been too keen on being straight in there and providing feedback because you don't know how it's going to be received. You've not learned enough about the team yet. So again, it's learning. How do people normally respond to things? What's the dynamic in team meetings? Do people challenge each other?

Or is there just this fake harmony where everyone seems very happy, but there's no real robust conversations going on? If that's the case, all right, we're going to have to start working at this and practicing it. Once you get to that point, generally my tips around feedback are that it should be quick and very to the point, a matter of fact, but always in a positive tone.

You can see a problem and our job is to resolve the problem. That's it. It's nothing to do with you as a person, nothing to do with your character. And as Amy Edmondson says, as the professor of Harvard Business School, I mean, I won't word it as well as she does, but mistakes are a learning opportunity. So people make mistakes. We don't need to be in there going, oh, you know, why did you do this?

What was the learning from it? What can you share with the rest of us that means that we don't fall into that pitfall? Great. That better feedback then, here's the situation that I've noticed and this is the behavior that I'm not sure about and this is the impact that you're having on the rest of the team. And I think this is a mistake that new managers fall into is they'll take a model like SBI, which there's nothing wrong with the model, but they don't know how to apply it.

They just go through, oh, well, Fuel or SBI or Oscar. But really, the tool isn't the important part. It's you. It's how you deliver the feedback, the intention behind the conversation, how receptive you are to how someone's reacting to it, the work that you're putting in to developing the culture around it.

Are we a team that provides feedback to each other and guidance and coaching? And if we're not, that's my priority here. Because if we don't do that, we're going to run into trouble quite quickly. Is there anything else we need to be talking about? Anything else that people need to know for their 30 to 60 days? 30 to 60 days is, as I said, if 30 days is learning, 60 days is reviewing.

What is, where are the inefficiencies? What are our Frankenstein processes that made sense to other people that don't make sense for us? Even as a, you know, as the manager, a previous manager wanted, may have wanted a report with A, B and C information in and you look at it and go,

I don't see any value in that information. So your job within this next 30 days is to work out what information you do need and discuss that with the team and have them work out the most effective way of providing that to you. So you can replace reporting, you can replace processes as long as it's not causing problems

in other departments. Let's talk about the last part of it, this sort of 60 to 90 days. What do you feel that people should have achieved by the end of the 90 days? Then we'll work backwards. This is going to be a little bit blunt in how I'm saying it, and it's more nuanced and complicated than I'm going to say it. So bear that in mind. By the end of 90 days, you should know whether you have the right people on the bus and in the right seat.

Because if you don't, it causes problems. There was a researcher called Will Phelps, I think, who did a piece of, did a study of

I mean, it's a while ago now, 2012, maybe 2015, called the Bad Apple Experiment. He wanted to see how much impact one single person has on group work and project outcomes. And so to kind of quickly go through this experiment, he put one person into different groups and they took on a different persona. In one, they were a slacker. In one, they were a jerk. In one, they were a Debbie Downer.

and in one they were positive and really tried to help. And regardless of the three negatives, the overall impact on outcomes was pretty much the same in that it decreased output by 30% to 40%, one person in a group. And I think the groups were something like 10 to 12 people, which is the average team size. So this is really important for managers at this point to be considering. If I am not addressing this,

What tone am I setting for the rest of the team? Am I becoming avoidant? Am I an absentee manager? Am I enabling someone's poor performance? Because that can really drag other people down. They may be lovely people, but their performance is causing a ripple effect. Other people are having to pick it up. Or are they like the Dementors from Harry Potter and they suck all of the energy out of the room?

Ah, and this is the most common way people do it. I've seen this time and time again. People are getting enthused by a new piece of work and I think this is really exciting and they go, hang on, hang on a second. Let's be realistic.

And what they're doing is they're not being realistic. They're being cynical and pessimistic. We can be realistic. As Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, says, the most important mindset for a manager and leader is pragmatic optimism. Be honest. Be brutally honest about the position that you're in. But then look and err on the side of optimism. I think we can change this. I think we can make a go of it. Because if you don't do that,

you will draw the energy out of the team. When you said Disney, I was just thinking about something else about Disney. And I don't know whether you can comment on this or not, but one of their management styles was to ensure they sort of group people into three, um, three sort of roles across the organization. There was sort of the people, um, who did the finances and all the really boring stuff, like getting the money. Then there was people who did the operations and the project managed. And then there were what they call, I think they called them imagineers. They were the really creative people.

And one of the rules was that no Imagineer could ever be on a team with someone from finance because they'd be more realistic and they'd pull them down. I mean, does that sound like overkill? If you're not Disney, probably, and this is the thing when you're a massive organization, you can...

experiment and take risks and if it fails it's absorbed by the size of the organization so if it didn't work out it probably wouldn't have caused much problems but if you're a small to medium-sized business i think that's a real risk to try restructuring something that's quite unknown and actually i would say it leads on to a slightly different point of getting to know

uh different people i'll use a cfo as an example if they're the type of person that doesn't want to spend much and they don't want to resource new initiatives very much you might be really frustrated by that getting to know them as a person and understanding their thought process can really help you emotionally around their choices so if

Patrick Lencioni is another kind of leadership and management coach, and he's written a number of books around this. And he gives an example where he was in with an organization and they had the senior leaders all meet, CFO, COO, CEO, all the other acronyms. And he could see that they were getting frustrated with the CFO saying,

kind of being pessimistic or resistant to pushing these new initiatives forward. So one of the tasks they got them to do was talk around things that are important to them. This is a really interesting question. Tell me about a challenge that you face as a child that affects who you are as an adult.

And I'm not saying, you know, this is a delicate question. So don't run off and just use it, but be careful around it. It could be very powerful. And what he said was the CFO answered by saying, I grew up in poverty and we had damp in the house and it was really difficult. And my parents scrimped and saved for everything that we ever got. And now as an adult, I do exactly the same.

And so when I'm looking at this proposal, I'm not being difficult or tight because I don't agree with it. I'm just really careful and cautious. And he said, Patrick Lencioni, who was in the room at the time, said you could see the change in the atmosphere. People understood the person behind the decision. And knowing that, it might not change the end result, but it changes everything.

all of the implicit stuff going on at the time. I'm no longer frustrated with that CFO. I understand it. I can get behind it. I might disagree, but the disagreement's not personal anymore.

It's our job to find the right way forward, not be annoyed with each other. So we're at the 90-day mark. You talked about risk then. And I think there might be a risk that at 90 days, a manager goes, cool, I've got it sorted. I've gone through the Sanderson method of day 30, day 60. I am the king. What signs are there perhaps that someone's now developing a bit of overconfidence and unfounded? They've stopped learning.

Right. It's the simplest answer. It doesn't matter what level you're at, manager, CEO, anything in between.

Your job is to learn, learn from the team, go away and do your own learning. Listen to podcasts just like this one, read books, whatever it is. As soon as you stop learning, you stop growing. As soon as you stop growing, you stagnate and stagnation is the first step towards decline. So at this point, is it too early to start thinking about a longer term strategy? You're sort of what I'm going to be doing over the next year. Should that be giving it six months? What do you think? Oh,

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You want to be planning out your year if you can. If you don't have clear direction, you end up going off aimlessly if you're not careful. And so whether a year, it depends on the organization, it's really going to change depending on sector as well.

So a year might be slightly arbitrary, but what you need is a very clear, North Star is a very popular term at the moment. I need a North Star, whether that's the overall vision of the company or a North Star for the next three months. What is the clear goal that we need to achieve? Three months, six months, nine months, 12 months, however you want to plan it out. If you're not working towards something and you don't have clear metrics to show that you're achieving it,

You run the risk of just going round in circles and then people go, why am I doing this? What's the point of this task? It just feels, you know, I'm just doing work for the sake of work. I don't know how many times I've heard that. It just feels like I'm being given stuff to do, but it's not actually of any value. So we want to avoid that by having clarity over the purpose. So what have we not covered that you think managers at the 90-day mark should know? Here's an interesting one.

I'm going to pose it as a question, actually. And it's one that I ask to virtually every organization of any size that I work with. I'd be interested in your answer, actually, Al. Imagine you are back in a team. You are the manager, you're promoted, you've got a vertical team that you report directly into you. You're part of a lateral team of managers that all have their own departments and teams.

If you had to give 1% more of your time and energy in a binary choice between your lateral management team or your vertical direct reports team, which one would you give 1% more to? I think my instinct seems to be, if I want to please Vince, I'm going to say my vertical team.

But I genuinely wouldn't know how to answer that question. So about 80% of people give the answer vertical team. And most people justify it with something along the lines of, if the team that I'm supporting know exactly what they're doing, they've got the most I can give to them, then they will perform well, the department will perform well, and therefore the overall business will reap the rewards of that. So the justification is there and it's a really good answer.

However, it's the wrong answer. And you see people go, okay, I feel like I'm being caught out here. And the reason is, if you have to give 1% more, it's got to be your lateral team.

And the easiest way to explain this is with an analogy. So if you imagine a set of boats going down the river, like a dragon boats. So there's multiple people rowing. They're your team members. They've all got to be in sync. Otherwise it's chaos. So what do you do? You put a cocks at the back that drives the rhythm and makes it as efficient as possible. There's your manager. You create the efficiency in the people putting in all of the effort.

And it's an interesting analogy as well, because that's what people think management is. I'm doing all the work here and they're just going row, row. But of course, that's not what management is. It's just for this analogy. However, when you're in the boat, all you can see is your one perspective. Oh, I'm going down this point here and I'm trying to do it as quickly or as efficiently as I can.

What you really need is someone in a drone or a plane up above making sure that those boats that started off like this, all aligned, are not slowly drifting off in different directions. Or conversely, sometimes, and this is hard to demonstrate with your hands,

But sometimes they start like this and then they start crashing into each other and they're competing for the same resources and they're not supporting each other and they're not helping. We see this happen time and time again with siloed departments. Maybe they missed the fork in the river completely because no one was telling them we need to pivot.

And so what the manager needs to be doing is constantly checking with other managers. Are we heading in the right direction? They need to be constantly asking the people above, are we still aligned? Are we still working towards the core purpose? So if a team, if a manager has to give 1% more, it's got to be to the lateral managers to make sure that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet, because if we don't,

We're going to cause the organization issues. We're going to be misaligned in time. We're going to compete with each other. We're going to have different departments start to argue with each other and not talk to each other and

And then that affects onboarding processes because people go, you know, just ignore the sales team. They just do their own thing. As soon as you start hearing things like that, it's a sure sign that the management team are not on board with each other and they're trying to achieve their own version of the vision. Let's talk about remote hybrid teams. Yes. Are we treating them exactly the same as if they're in the office? No. Same principles you just talked about? Oh, tell me. You have to go, you have to give more. You have to

provide more time to connect um some people won't like that answer i don't i don't want to connect with my team um obviously jamie diamond and the whole jp morgan thing is going on at the moment and i might if it was my company i'm not a fan of forcing people back into the office there is there is something that makes connection easier in a face-to-face setting

But I will say that doesn't mean that connection cannot be achieved in a remote setting. You just have to be more purposeful with it, have to provide a little bit more time, check in a little bit more regularly. And it's easier for people to feel distant, distanced from the team and slowly just kind of lose connection with people. And that doesn't mean that they're not performing their job or they're not achieving outcomes.

But I believe a team that feels connected to each other can perform even better than a team that just feels like a set of lone wolves. Someone who's listened to us, if they listen to the entire interview, they're at 60 minutes in now. There's a lot of good stuff in here. They might feel a little overwhelmed. Is there sort of one thing that someone could implement tomorrow that's going to make their management journey better? Have crystal clear clarity on what you want to achieve for yourself

for your team and how the team feeds into the overall organization for the next three to six months. So if people want to find out more about you, where's the best place for them to go, Vince? Social media, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn. I try and respond to as many messages as I can. I try and provide as much value out there free as I can. And that's the fastest way to reach me. Before we go, I promise to ask you this question.

What do we need to understand about young events to understand why you're so obsessed about being great at management today? So I grew up and I spent, I think I spent most of my time with my mum and I had a great relationship with her and she was really instilled the importance of empathy and understanding people and connecting with people and understanding

that gave me I think a natural tendency to care as a manager the downside and something that I have to work on and I would encourage other people to work on is that can easily fall into pleasing and so I then therefore I've put a lot of effort into yes care about people but have a very clear

vision and purpose of what you're trying to achieve through the processes and the work needs to be done and so interestingly the manager I am today is in part because of what I received and in part because of what I didn't receive and the effort that I've put in to make to

to shoring up that weakness. That was the brilliant Vince Sanderson. I really do love how he has broken down the journey of a new manager into just these more chunked steps, but also equally critical the first 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, and giving such clear guidance on what to focus on at each stage. Yeah, what really resonated with me was this emphasis on understanding people first, right?

Particularly that powerful insight about how managers need to create an environment where others can excel, not just be all flashy. If you listen to Tuesday, you'll hear the workplace surgery. There was a few questions around that. And that really is the foundation of great leadership. It's not trying to do everything yourself, but creating the conditions where your team can thrive. Always remember that analogy of the lake.

You know, with all the fishes. Oh, yes. You need to create a really nice lake. It comes down to the fact that Vince is honest about his own journey. He's honest about his own challenges. This self-awareness is exactly what we need in leadership today. It's not about being perfect. It's about willing to learn and grow. Learning, man. Stay curious. If you are taking away...

Just one thing from today's episodes, I'd go with Vince's final bit of advice. Get crystal clear on what you want to achieve for yourself, your team and how your team feeds into the overall organization. Having that reason and role, that clarity of purpose makes everything so much, so much easier.

Absolutely. For those of you who want to connect with Vince, and of course you do, believe me, you can find him on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn, all the links are in the show notes. But if you search for Vince Sanderson, he should come up. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and consider leaving us a review. It really does help other people find the show. And we'll be back next Tuesday with our weekly news roundup.

of workplace surgery, and then on Thursday, another fantastic guest interview. Until then, keep creating those amazing workplace cultures. You've totally got this. You've got this. And if you haven't, then email Leanne because she can help you with this. All the events. Bye. Bye. Bye-bye.