On this episode, would you let your employer monitor you on camera while working from home? One Australian company has been accused of pressuring staff to agree to video surveillance in their own homes. And what if your company said you couldn't work from home even though your job could easily be done remotely?
On the week we mark five years since the start of the COVID pandemic, new research shows nearly half of businesses are struggling to hire and many are blaming candidates' refusal to return to the office. Is this the wake-up call employers need to rethink outdated ways of working?
Or have employee expectations simply gone too far? And speaking of outdated models, our Hot Take guest Grace Tallon says a five-day work week is no longer fit for purpose. And how would you feel being left out of a project? Not because of your skills, but because you're a blue or a red. One listener says personality testing has taken over their workplace, with managers now assigning tasks based on colour profiles instead of competence.
Find out when I ask Leanne in our world-famous weekly workplace surgery. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. Brought to you, of course, by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. And my name is Al and I'm a business owner. And together we help organizations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's dive straight into this week's episode right after a quick message from our sponsors.
Okay, welcome back. Right now it's Leanne's favourite time of the week. Yes it is. It's time for the news roundabout. Cue that jingle. Pressing play. What have you seen this week, Leigh? London firms are struggling to recruit staff as people want to work from home. Here's a crazy idea. Let them work from home.
Anyway, according to a new report from City AM, London businesses are struggling to hire and remote work expectations are a big part of the story. So the survey run by Business London looked at 1,000 companies across capital. More than four in five said they currently have vacancies and nearly half admitted they're finding it difficult to recruit.
A quarter said there's just a lack of interest in the roles, why 45% blamed on applicants wanting to work from home. Blame. Lovely word there. It's not just about hiring, though. Apparently, companies are also worried about the skills gap. Over a third said their staff lack the necessary skills for the job. English and basic maths were both flagged, particularly in sectors like finance and communications, where open roles are piling up.
Despite that, many businesses are trying to turn the tide. Eight in 10 say they're planning to invest more in training. I feel
The other two, what are you doing? And with the spring statement around the corner, there is pressure on the government to take some bold steps on education and upskilling. But here's what's interesting. While some firms seem to think that remote work is part of the problem, research continues to tell a different story. We've all heard of Nick Bloom, Stanford economist who's been studying remote and hybrid work for years.
He has consistently found that working from home has no negative effect on performance and in some cases it actually boosts productivity, especially for roles that need deep focus.
So once again, we've got a bit of a disconnect here. People want flexibility. The data says performance holds up, but many companies are still resisting the shift. So what is really going on, Al? Why are businesses so out of step with what workers want? Or is it a case that expectations are just changing faster than they can keep up? Thoughts?
I'm almost getting bored with this. We talk about it almost like at least once every two weeks, once every three weeks, this whole idea of bosses saying, I don't want people to work from home. I don't get it. I mean, do bosses, do these people who say you've got to work in the office, do they enjoy coming into the office? Is it like a little power trip or something for them? It's very, very strange. I think there's deep focus. And incidentally, we've got a letter very similar about this coming up in the surgery. I think you're going to like it. But this idea of deep focus.
I can see the pros and cons of working from home for deep focus. If you've got somewhere at home you can really get into something, then 100% I think working from home is going to be great for you because deep focus, 90 minutes of deep focus is going to produce more work than eight hours of interrupted focus, in my opinion. There's no science that I've got to back that up. I'm sure there is somewhere. Probably Leanne's probably got some, Grace on a hot take has probably got some. But this whole idea of deep work is so, so, so important. However...
If you work in, if your home life is a little bit hectic, perhaps you've got dogs, like you might be able to hear our dogs at the moment. You've got dogs, I don't know, you've got parcels coming back and forwards. You've got children who are at home, perhaps you're looking after someone. I can see how, in theory, going into an office and shutting the door would be more productive.
However, in the office, are you not just being tapped on the shoulder asking if you want a brew? Are you not getting like pinged with emails? Are you not someone coming across and going, hey, Jeff, can you just do me a favor? Can you just help me out with this thing? So I don't know unless we just like go and find a converted monastery and go, right, that's where the office is going to be where nobody can speak. I don't know. I don't know.
I can see the pros and cons, but really, as far as I'm concerned, I want to work from home. Obviously, we do because, you know, we do work from home ourselves, but that's my thoughts on it. But I can see the pros and cons. Of course, there are pros and cons to everything. And I think this is what is overwhelmingly the sentiment of probably the decade from employees. And it's been building far before the pandemic and the pandemic just accelerated the change.
People want more flexibility. People want ways to integrate their life and work because there isn't that clean distinction anymore. Work follows us home because we have the technology. We have the ping emails. We have our manager messaging on WhatsApp sometimes. There's all sorts.
boundaries that have been completely blurred. So all people are asking for is if I have to bring my work home with me anyway, can I also make this scenario work for me and actually, you know, blur some of my other boundaries that just make it easier for me to have work and life integrated in the way the modern world insists that it is.
I mean, I'd be interested if these companies who are looking to hire, if a candidate went, fine, I'll work from the office five days a week, no problem, but I will not accept any phone calls after 5.30, 6 o'clock. I will not have emails on my phone. If you insist I have a work phone, it will stay in the office until I return at half past eight the next morning. I'm just wondering, with those hard boundaries back in play, whether organisations would be more inclined to
to allow working from home. I agree, Al. I'm getting bored. The reason we keep talking about it is that I would hate for...
anyone to misunderstand that this is just good for business. It isn't good for business, it isn't good for people and it's not even true. The data doesn't back it up. Of course, organisations will find their own ways of working, as will people. And this is what we're seeing and why organisations are currently finding it harder to hire. Because if you won't make this flexibility just a thing, then I'll have to set harder boundaries for me in terms of the work that I'm interested in. So it's no great surprise and really just
people trying to get some sense of control yeah I think it's a shame and like you said it
The answer seems obvious. We are not good enough people applying for the jobs. The people aren't interested in the role. Well, you probably can't do too much to change the role. But one simple thing is just going, well, you can work where you want. Well, not actually where you want because that's a different conversation. You can work from home. Yeah, but I mean, talking of working from home, I think you've seen something interesting this week, haven't you? Yes, it's all to do with a new word that I've seen. It's called bossware. Have you ever heard of that?
boss wear no but like the scouser in me wants to be like oh it's boss it's boss lengthen out it looks great he didn't know that Leanne could do a scouse accent
I have skills. You do, you do. No, bossware is basically like software, but bossware, that's the way it's talking. And it is about monitoring. And so all of this employee monitoring stuff comes under this term of bossware. Now, what was interesting is that the Financial Sector Union has claimed that a company called AMP, which is an Australian company. I know of AMP. I'm quite familiar with AMP. I don't know what they do. What do they do? Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Is it like one of these big KPMG? I've heard of them, but I don't really know what they do. Jacobs. Jacobs. Yes. Right. Okay. I've got it. Anyway, so the point was that they were giving employees just one week to sign new contracts.
And what was in this contract, just buried at the bottom, was things like permitting constant video monitoring, which would be potentially in their homes if they're working from home. About 2,500 people reported to receive these contracts and they had seven days to sign. Otherwise, something bad would happen.
I can't remember what he said in the article, whether they were going to be put on performance improvement plans or something like that, but basically it's seven days to sign. They also, what AMP were doing, was also giving people $1,000. I think this is Australian dollars, $1,000 to sign quickly.
So it's all a bit like, mm-mm-mm. Now, of course, AMP have strongly denied these claims. They've said officially AMP is not and will not conduct camera surveillance on employees when they work from home. The problem is the contract, the new contract, says that they can, in theory, of course. Apparently, they were reviewed by an external law firm to ensure that they align with industry practices. Not sure they did a great job there.
Other controversial contract elements included a clause allowing AMP to require medical examinations by their own doctors, conversion to annualized salaries, potentially eliminating overtime and penalty rates, and requirements to work additional hours without extra pay. Now, the other thing was that the contract potentially allowed sharing employee personal data with third parties.
This all kind of undermines this right to disconnect by requiring employees to respond to messages outside of work hours.
Now, the FSU, this is the Financial Support Union, claims employees were offered this $1,000 share plan granted incentive to sign. They, of course, advise employees not to sign the contracts. There is an ongoing dispute, as you'd imagine. Now, AMP are telling you, no, they're not doing any of these things, but the contract is literally on paper. Leah, what are your thoughts? Fools. They are fools. They really are. They've not thought this through, have they? Well, somebody's thought it through, but really...
badly and without understanding there's actually a human being on the other side of that contract. It's so weird, isn't it? What's going on in the world at the minute? It's like if somebody at this point like pulled me out and was like, this is the Matrix and it's glitching, I'd be like, oh, thank God. That makes sense. That makes more sense than what's going on. Jamie Dimon just turns up and goes, bro, bro, it's a prank. It's a prank. I've been punked.
Man, have I. Imagine that. I'd be fuming if somebody told me that since the pandemic we've all just been pranked. Strongly worded letter. Do you know what the pandemic meant? Yeah. Who would be writing to? Yeah, what was the D's name of my matriarch? Neo. Neo. Dear Neo. What are we talking about?
Surveillance from home. Don't be ridiculous. Don't be ridiculous. Do I even need to mention this could be a massive safeguarding issue in terms of people's kids? You know, you can't just lock them out. They might just come running in and then you've got kids on film. It's weird. It's odd. The signing bonus is very strange as well. I don't understand the purpose of it. Are you struggling, AMP? Do you not have enough money? Is performance bad? How?
How are they doing in the ASX, Al? Is it not going so well? What's the ASX? Australian Stock Exchange.
They call it... Oh, right, okay. So not the A-S-E, the A-S-X, because they're cool and Australian. Yes. Do you know what? I didn't look into that. I'd imagine... I don't know. Do you know? I was about to say I'd imagine, but I don't know. Do you know what? I think that sums up this entire story. I don't know what the purpose was. It seems really silly, really short-sighted. I'm sure everybody who works for A&P right now is looking for the new job, potentially. It's all a bit strange, but...
And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed. You're not angry, you're disappointed. Yeah, another large organisation that is just forgetting that actual human people work for your business and make you money. Basic human psychology, you know? This isn't even just like...
This is basic, basic stuff. Try harder, AMP. Yeah, and I think one of the major problems with this is that a lawyer, it sounds like a lawyer drew it up, and I'm sorry, Jeremy, if you're listening, I know you're a lawyer or an ex-lawyer, but the problem with lawyers, I think, is they look at all the possible downsides and they mitigate against them. And it sounds to me that's what's happened.
is that someone with a law background has gone, well, let's just cover everything off on this new agreement, this new contract, so that no matter what happens, we've always got something in the contract and go back and go, oh, look, you shouldn't have done this. And of course, then it just sounds really scary. Like any big long contract's a bit scary. I tell you, I've never read a single one of those contracts. I've read one cover to cover recently. Well, we won't go into that. We won't go into that. But yeah, it seems really short-sighted, really foolish, and just...
how would you like it do you know what I mean the person who came up with this how would you like it if you're at home like you said and you're just working away and someone's videoing you and videoing you like scratching your bum or something you know it's not great anyway if anyone out there
one out there is watching this and works for AMP and either thinks you know wants to add to the story or correct us leave a comment get in touch always interested to know what actually is happening on on the inside yes and that has happened a couple of times one particular person who we uh
who declined to come on the podcast. I don't know why. That doesn't show that they were particularly like 100% behind their ideas. But anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Don't say. Yeah. Don't say. We can't say. You'll know who they are. Anyway, Leanne, what else have you seen this week, love? Something brighter. Something sunnier, Al. Yeah. Some good news for you and for anyone daydreaming about their next holiday break. I know I am. Holiday benefits last longer than we thought, according to science.
Science says it officially. We need one of those stamps that goes, science approved. Science approved. Yeah. Holidays. They don't just feel really good in the moment. Apparently, the benefits stick around for a lot longer than we used to think. So this is another piece of research that has been reported on by the BPS this month in the Research Digest. They're on fire right now. The BPS? The Research Digest team. Oh, nice. Big shout out to you guys. Big shout out. Keep it coming. Keep it coming.
So they reported on this new research published in the Journal of Applied Psychology looked at data from 32 studies tracking people's well-being before, during and after taking time off. And the biggest takeaway, while we do eventually slide back into our usual levels of stress and fatigue, that post-holiday glow can last up to six
weeks which is much longer than previous research has suggested so the study measured everything from stress and burnout to sleep quality energy levels general happiness and yet well-being did dip once people returned to work of course you get that little slump but it stayed higher than it was before the holiday even three weeks after they were back the type of break mattered too so people who mix time away with time at home saw the biggest benefit overall but interest
Interestingly, those who traveled experienced a lower decline in well-being afterwards. So the after effects lasted longer, even if the peak wasn't a shock. Longer holidays gave a bigger boost during the break, but that came with a catch, a steeper drop once people returned to work.
So it's like the higher you go, the further you have to fall. What made the big difference, though, was how people spent their time off. The best outcomes came from people who completely detached from work. Do we hear this, Al? Mentally checking out made a huge difference. So delete that app from your phone. Don't look at working emails. And if you're a manager, don't even think about messaging that person.
Yes. No. You've been told. No. What else did they find? Physical activity was a major winner as well, followed by social time. So skiing holidays with friends are going to be beautiful for our well-being. On the other hand, more passive activities like just lounging around didn't really have a significant effect either way. Learning new skills on holiday, maybe practicing your Spanish.
That turns out it didn't have an impact either. So for employees, what is clear is that we need to encourage people to take proper time off, making sure that they don't feel guilty for doing it. That isn't just a nice thing to have. It's actually a really smart idea. It's good for your people. It's good for your business. At least a happier, healthier staff who are likely to perform better when they get back.
And for employees listening, if you want to actually feel the benefit of your time off, the key is to properly unplug and get moving. Please delete that Gmail. It always surprised me when I work with business owners who are concerned about well-being and burnout and energy levels dipping. And then we'll look and only about 70% of the staff have taken all their annual leave over the past two years. It's like, well, might help. And now science says it really does. Science approved.
There you go. Right after this very, very short break, we're going to be back with this week's hot take, which is from Grace Tallon from the Work Time Reduction Centre. And she's going to be giving her professional views on the four-day work week. It's probably not what you think. See you in a second. Welcome back. Every week, we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work, something that might challenge how we think about our jobs, our businesses, or our workplace culture.
And today's hot take is a bit of a spicy one. We're joined by Grace Tallon, who believes that the five-day work week is fundamentally broken and no longer fit for purpose in today's world. What I find really interesting about Grace's perspective is that she's not just advocating for fewer working hours as a nice employee policy.
perk. She's making the case that reducing work time is absolutely critical for business success, for productivity and for mental well-being. And this, of course, comes at an interesting time, doesn't it? Because remote work debates are still raging, like on this podcast, and companies are experimenting with four-day work weeks. Grace actually calls rethinking work hours the most important thing we do as a generation. Let's hear from Grace about why she believes the five-day work week belongs in the history books, not in our future.
Just a quick note, Grace's audio, for some reason, there was a slight technical issue. We've tried to clean it as best we can. It's fine. It's just a little bit buzzy. That's all.
My name is Grace Tallon and I am the co-founder of an organisation called Work Time Reduction and what we do is we support companies to do what it says on the tin, reduce their working time. What's your hot take on work time reduction? I sometimes read people saying, you know, popular influencers on the likes of LinkedIn saying, you know, if your workplace doesn't work for you, go out and do it on your own. And as an entrepreneur, I can say that that study
study hard and instead of saying to people if your workplace doesn't work for you why as a society are we not saying that if you run a business it is incumbent on you to make that workplace a place where everybody
where everybody is able to bring their best selves to work, to thrive, using wellbeing and productivity as complementary forces and sharing those productivity gains with employees. So I suppose that would be my hot take, would be that it is incumbent on people who run a business to make their workplace
one that allows all of their employees to thrive and one that allows sort of you know parents and women in particular to stay in the workforce and to not look at moving to part-time reducing their salary to not being
not being felt like they have to keep apologising for themselves or not being given opportunity for putting themselves forward for leadership roles. I mean, we want to see more women in leadership roles, but what does it take to get them there? It's not enough to say lean in, you know, lean into burnout, lean into an environment that's just set up to kick me straight back out again. You know, we want to be asking women to lean into environments that are set up to give them the best chance. And, you know,
we talk too much about productivity. Let's talk a little bit more about joy and happiness. If someone is really happy, they're going to do really good work for you. Those people who are being forced to go back to JP Morgan after, you know, setting themselves up for the last number of years in a situation that they might've been able to balance their lives a little bit better. Do you think that they're going to be happy going back into that office with these wonderful perks that they are talking about? They're probably not. Um,
And I think that people like Jamie Dimon are going to see that these people are not going to be performing as well. Because really, if you're not happy and you're not healthy, then that's going to affect your performance. I think there is maybe a time, and maybe it still is the time, where organisations like JP Morgan or a Deloitte or a KPMG or, you know, a big corporate organisation that means something to have on your CV if you've worked for an organisation like this, that prestige and that...
that level of experience does that still carry as much weight or are people going to walk away from organizations like JP Morgan in favor of maybe less well-known organizations where they can actually strike a better work-life balance? I think we have to be honest about where society is today and I think today we are in a place where of course those things still have weight but
What I'm hoping is that all of these really super talented people who have the option to walk away will take a step back, slow down a little bit and look at their lives and think about what they want in the future for themselves. I mean, so many people go straight out of college, brilliant, wonderfully talented people straight out of college into a job that
that they're working sometimes 70 hours a week. They haven't got time to spend with their loved ones, to think about their hobbies. And very sadly, I hear quite often people say, well, look, I actually don't have time for hobbies. And I used to do this in school, but I haven't really had time to continue it. And now I don't really know. And, you know,
That is the joy of life, is doing things that you love. And you might love your job, but there are so many other parts to life that will bring you joy and bring you happiness. And all of a sudden it's over and you're retiring. So my hope is that people will start to step back from the big organisations and look to more inclusive organisations that are doing super, super work that need this talent now.
And then we're going to see things turn. We're going to see changes. Or indeed that, you know, the JP Morgans will realize that they're bringing these people back for control because that's what it is at the end of the day. It's really easy for a manager to look at you at your desk.
and see you sitting there and then say, okay, well, they're sitting at their desks. They must be doing work. So that's lazy management. And I think very quickly people are going to start to see in those organizations that, you know, people don't have any enthusiasm. You have to give people a reason to want to produce for you. And people want autonomy. They want to feel like they're in control of their work. And this is
not going to make them feel like they're in control. For any business owner that's thinking, I'd love the sound of a four-day work week. I'd love to only do a four-day work week, but what do I do with my clients? What if my revenue goes down? How do I structure it with my people? What are some of maybe the myths
or misunderstandings that people might have about shifting to a full-day work week that you can help clear up for us? The first thing I'd say is that it is not an easy thing to do. So while the premise is not rocket science, we've produced a paper, The Science of Work-Time Reduction, and there is science, of course, behind all of this. But it isn't rocket science in terms of, you know, we know what can be done.
And people are proving that it can be done. But that doesn't mean that it's easy. Of course, the beginning, this lovely, shiny new thing. But how do you sustain those productivity gains? So the very first thing that I always discuss is that it's going to be a big lift.
Because these are deeply ingrained habits that we've all formed. I mean, we're all checking our emails when we shouldn't be. It's just the way of work and we've all sort of bought into that. So the first thing you need to do is dislodge all of those and sort of unlearn that
the things that we've been so used to doing. So that isn't an easy thing. And then you've got to learn these new habits. So you're not talking about doing the same work the same way in less time. You're talking about fundamentally redesigning how you do your work. But the payoff you get is unlike any other change management project that you're ever even considering to bring to the table because what you are giving in return is so transformational to people's lives that the investment involved
is huge, that they actually want to do all of these things. Because for example, if you weren't giving them something in return and asking them for this big lift, they're thinking, what am I going to get in return? Probably more work.
So, you know, are they going to be as invested? But here, you're actually giving them something back that no money can buy. And we see that in a lot of the research that we do, that people favour more time over pay increases. And for the first time, that's kind of the biggest benefit people are looking for, is time back. I talk to so many people who have brilliant lives outside of work and beautiful family and, you know, are really looking forward to going home.
But at the end of the day, they're closing down their laptop and they're just feeling absolutely drained and they have nothing left to give to the rest of their lives. They're going home and just the usual, make the dinner. So, so much of this is not necessarily just about, you know, getting yourself down to the foot. I mean, the first thing you need to do is get control of the time that you have control of. So if you don't control your time on, you'll never ever have control of your
of your time off. I want to get your thoughts quickly on some of the other initiatives we've seen along the same lines of four-day workweeks. Either I've heard of a nine-day fortnight, I've heard of compressed hours into four days for the same pay.
Do any of those have similar impacts or is it kind of missing the point? So genuine work time reduction is what we are talking about in work time reduction. And that's what we're supporting people to do. And I mentioned to you about the work time reduction continuum whereby you could be working 70 hours and what we're trying to do for you is get you home in the evening to have dinner with your family and get the organisation to this point before we're trying to get them here.
We are never trying to compress hours because what you're doing by compressing hours is you're just creating a situation whereby those people are going to be extremely, extremely burnt out. And organizations that are looking to do that may be seeing gains in the first couple of months or year, but it's really important to know that those people, and what are you actually getting in terms of efficiency on those last two hours? We all know that even by five o'clock,
you've done as much as you can. I think, you know, one and a half hour stints, 90 minute stints and a break, 90 minute stints and a break. There's only so much you can produce in a day. We just don't have the capacity. We're human beings. You know, we're not machines. So no matter how much you redesign our work,
We get tired and rest is so important. And that's part of why shorter working weeks are so transformational because people have time to think, they have time to be creative, they have time to bring these wonderful innovations to your business. Well, that was Grace Tallon there from the Work Time Reduction Centre calling time on our five-day work week.
I've got to say, when she talked about productivity actually improving with shorter hours, it really does make a lot of sense. For example, if you give someone a task to do and you give them a week, it's going to take a week. Give them four days to do it and suddenly they'll find a way to get it done. I know I'm definitely very guilty of that. Yeah, and you know, the research backs all of this up. We've seen studies from places like Iceland and Sweden showing that reducing hours doesn't mean reducing output. Honestly, when are we going to start managing by output? Yeah.
And what's really interesting from a psychological perspective is that it's not just about having more time off. It's about people becoming more intentional with their work time. And as you've said, Al, with so much more deep focus work needed, doing that for that long is...
just doesn't doesn't work you know so it's actually I think we're just being more productive in the time that that we have and we're basically just not showing up for the unproductive time we don't have you know 100% and the other thing is which is really cool about this I don't know whether you've noticed I know well I know you've noticed Leanne but whether listeners notice this often if you've got a problem if you sit you can sit there for an hour trying to fix a problem
And then you walk away, you can go and get a brew or something and you go, oh yeah, no, I could try this. I never thought of that. Whereas if you just spent another hour on that problem, you still wouldn't be any further forward. So yeah, I think this is all about focused work and also having that break because it's
There's something happens in your brain. If only there was a psychologist here who could explain the science behind it. Something happens in your brain when you have a bit of time off. Okay, on to my favorite time of the week. It's the world famous weekly workplace surgery. We should say, you're so, so keen to move on, Al. You want to find out more about Grace. Of course you do. She can also help you implement a four-day work week, should you wish. I will leave a link to her LinkedIn profile and her website in the show notes. Sorry, Grace. Sorry, Grace. Go on, your favorite time of the week.
I feel like I've been properly told off. It's my favorite time of the week now. This is the world famous weekly workplace surgery. This is where I put your questions to Leanne. This is where Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. I'm not sure I'm thinking I put to me this is in this. She's an expert in workplace culture. You know all this. You know all this.
So we're going to go on to question number one. They call it mentoring, but I call it handing over my job. I've been asked to mentor a new hire who seems overqualified for their role. They have an MBA from a top university, more industry experience than me, and already seem very chummy with the senior leadership.
My boss recently asked me to show them the ropes on our most prestigious client account that I worked very hard to land. They're being invited to meetings I'm not part of and casually drop comments like, when I had dinner with a CTO last week, I can't shake the feeling I'm training my replacement. I obviously want to be a team player, but I'm worried I'm naively helping someone take my job. Am I being paranoid? Maybe, I don't know. It depends if they are getting you to train your replacement, in which case you're not being paranoid at all.
First of all, I'd say, and we have a really interesting interview coming up that's going to dive more into this. Underemployment, which is when a person takes a job that is perhaps they are overqualified for, isn't always a bad thing. It might be an intentional choice from that person to do that role that they are overqualified for.
So I wouldn't necessarily assume that they're out to get you or that this is odd that somebody would take this job when they could arguably do something more senior. That is just sometimes the case and it has its benefits. The only really way you're going to find out is either wait until it happens or ask.
Ask your manager, ask the person, start to have conversations, get curious. You say this all the time, don't you? People always want to talk about themselves. Just ask them lots of questions about what makes you take this job and what you've done previously and what you're most excited about and just start to get a bit curious and understand what the situation is.
If you've got a great relationship with your manager, I'd go to your manager and go, you know what, I'm probably a bit paranoid here, but I can't help but think. And a good manager is going to go, oh, I totally see why you'd think that. This is actually the intention of this person and they're going to want them to understand sales because they're actually going to move over here and do this, do that and whatever.
In the interim, all you can really do is continue to do what you've been asked to do. Show that you are a team player. Show that you add value. Continue to add value in your role and start to try and have these conversations and find out a bit more about it. The last thing you want to do is self-sabotage by being paranoid, being uncivil at work,
not helping this person get on creating these barriers especially they are chummy with the senior leadership team that's the last thing you want to do um so i would say keep doing your job keep being professional keep adding value and start to have some conversations to see if you can find out a bit more about what the intention of this this new hire is i think in terms of the paranoia the difference between paranoia and wisdom is kind of certainty
That's the only difference. And at this point, unless you can be certain this is what's happening, then you are potentially just more paranoid than you are wise. I absolutely agree, Al. Okay, right. This is a good one. HR is obsessed with personality tests and now everyone is a colour. Leanne, you're going to get into this one.
Recently, our new chief people officer discovered some kind of new personality test system at a conference. And so he brought these consultants in to administer personality tests to all the employees, including the seven in the team I manage. They
They promised it would improve team cohesion and help us leverage natural strengths. At first, I was open to the idea, but it's quickly become problematic. Senior leadership now insists we use these personality profiles for everything from project assignments to meeting structures.
I'm being pressured to put people on teams based on their color rather than their skills or experience. Last week, I was told I couldn't assign my best developer to a high-profile project because she was too analytical according to her profile, despite her having the exact technical expertise that I needed.
I built my team by focusing on skills and results, but now I'm expected to manage by color charts and personality quadrants. How do I protect this team from this pseudoscience nonsense? I think we know which side of the fence they live on right now without putting my own position at risk. Lee, this is a tough one. Or is it? Is it? Is it tough? I don't think it is. To quote John Amici when he was on this show, how have we got to the point where we distilled knowledge
the complexity of the human mind down to a primary cult.
He also said that personality tests are mostly bollocks, which is also correct. That's verbatim. That was, yes, absolutely verbatim. The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily go for your sepia at this point, because if I'm right, Alan, that question, the sepia was introduced as a way of supporting team cohesion and maybe identifying some natural strengths. Yes, exactly. Fine. Fine. That's fine. I mean, we could also use a horoscope to do that exact thing. I'm a Scorpio. I get on really well with Capricorns.
But it's not that intention and that use is fine. A personality inventory of any kind and caliber should never be used alone to make decisions around hiring development promotion. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. They are not scientifically speaking effective enough in terms of predicting future job performance. And that's what any psychological assessment when personality inventories are one of them
Any psychological assessment is designed to do interviews. It's a type of psychological assessment to help us understand, help us predict how well somebody is going to perform in that job in the future. Resist. This is not good. And particularly this personality imagery isn't good. There's a few that use colours. I'm guessing it's disc. Am I right in thinking as well that John shared with us that that was invented by the dude who wrote the Wonder Woman comics? Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, run away. The other thing about, I guess, just very simple, if you are thinking about using psychometrics, first of all, you should really work with somebody who is trained in psychometrics. Level A is usually around general mental ability or competencies. Level B is around personality. That is the BPS's certifications. I myself are both level A and B certified. So hiring somebody like me or another occupational psychologist, great move.
Second, when it comes to personality, there's two, very broadly speaking, two theories. There's type and there's trait. Type puts us in a box. We're a red, we're a yellow, we're a green, we're a blue. We're an I-M-T-P-D-R-J-A-B-C-F-Y. Typically, anyone who's a type...
not good. Any tool that puts people as a type, not good. Trait is more kind of saying, right, we all have, we all sit somewhere on a scale between introversion and extroversion. It's not that I'm an I, I'm an introvert. I sit somewhere on the scale between introversion and extroversion, and I just happen to be a little bit closer to introversion.
Much better because when we have these kind of scales, it gives us much more rich data to help us understand somebody's strengths and preferences. So yeah, if you're looking for a tool around personality, go for trait over type. That said, my personal preference in terms of using these type of assessments is to use something that's much more behavior based. My favorite one is the Real World Leader.
from the real world group which can be used in recruitment development scenarios again never alone it needs to be part of a bigger a bigger assessment um so i guess to recap you're not wrong you're living on the right side of the fence your cpo might have just got herself in a pickle and the leadership team has has run with this my thought would be go and have a conversation with the cpo see if that was their intention do what you can to resist making decisions on this alone
And it's not to say that it might be a bit of smoke and mirrors here. You might be like, oh, yeah, no, totes. Like, John's a red and, you know, Josephine's a yellow. But actually, you've also looked into their performance and their strengths and their preferences, maybe what actually they want to do in terms of their work. So there's lots of other data points you've used to make this decision. It just happens that Sandra's a yellow and John's a green. Yeah, I feel like I'm on a big rant there, but basically, resist. Yeah.
This is what happens when you put a pound in Leanne. You get five minutes of gold, absolute gold. The other problem with personality tests, and I'm not coming from a scientific point of view because I don't know any about the science, but is that if someone says you're a yellow and then says, right, so you have these traits,
it's kind of subconsciously you go, oh, right, okay, maybe I do have these traits. And then you start thinking, you behave like a yellow, thinking, well, I could never be creative because that's red and I don't have any of the red traits. Whereas, you know, anyone can be creative. I think it just sort of pigeonholes you a little bit, maybe in your own mind, which is quite dangerous. Absolutely self-fulfilling. Prophecy, self-limiting beliefs, it all fuels this in terms of our identity. And also, you've got to remember, the majority of personality inventories will ask you questions
a question about yourself so I'm answering questions about myself myself how reliable is that going to be just because how I see my personality doesn't mean that's how Al sees my personality or how you might see my personality
Much better to look at 360, which when we ask our boss, our peers, our customers, our staff, what they think of us in terms of either our personality or our behaviors, much more reliable data. Yeah, I get it. It's sexy. It's cool. And actually some things like,
disc maybe, isn't the worst thing in a team building exercise as long as it's given, you give the context, you know, this is just a little game we're going to do. And it's just, you know, it's little...
indicators of what we might like or our preferences or our strengths it's not absolute um then fine you might learn something about somebody else in your team that you didn't know previously and that's only good um but any kind of recruitment development promotion hard no and if you even even if you're thinking about including that as part of the process you have to be engaging somebody who is an expert not in the tool that they're trained to use in psychometrics
Of course, somebody who's been trained in disk is going to tell you how brilliant disk is and how it's going to change the world. You want to speak to somebody who's been trained or used lots of different tools previously in lots of different scenarios and can give you an indication of what works well where. Sorry, I just put another 50p in me. I'm going to stop now. No.
I think you've probably discovered that Leanne is very passionate about this and quite rightly so. So if you are interested in that, then check out the show notes because we'll put in there the link to John Amici's episode, which is incredible, brilliant, as you'd imagine, but also one which we spoke to someone from Hogan. Oh, Ryan Sherman, Hogan. Excellent test publisher. Excellent. Chef's kiss in terms of reliability and reliability.
but again, in very certain scenarios. But yes, I'll leave a link to Ryan's episode as well. All right. The next question says, my productivity is being hijacked by a calendar bully. I'm a senior developer who blocks out two hour deep work sessions in my calendar three times weekly for complex coding. An arrangement my manager approved. A colleague who
who's been at the company longer than me, but is at the same level, repeatedly schedules meetings during these blocks. When I decline, he reschedules to another block's time. I confronted him and he said, I've been here five years longer than you, so I can schedule meetings when they work for me and called my focus time just a preference, not an actual meeting.
He's now complained to our manager that I'm being difficult about collaboration. My productivity suffers without these focus sessions, but I don't want to create drama. How do I protect my work time without causing team conflict? So just so I understand, this person is blocking out the same two hours each day? Two hours, three times a week. And the same two hours? Yes. Okay. So what I'd say is maybe just put
put those two hours at different times of the day. I understand there might be times of the day that you're better in terms of your productivity, but two hours still gives you a fair window. So if you're about in the morning, there's another two hours you could pick in the morning, another two hours you could pick in the
in the afternoon because it might be that this person also functions best at this time and wants to have their meeting at these times. They also sound like a bit of a dick, to be honest, but that aside, maybe they're just better at that time of the day. I guess I'm surprised your manager hasn't stepped up here and kind of explained the situation, particularly if they approved it. But I think that would be my advice. Maybe go back to this colleague and say, do you know what?
maybe I was being a little bit rigid in my hours. So what if I move my, my plan is I'm going to move this two hours to here, this two hours to there and keep that one the same. Does that give you sufficient options to book these meetings where I do have to be there? And bearing in mind, if I don't need to be there, feel free to book it in the focus time, whatever. If this person is still difficult, then, you know, you're going to have to have that conversation with your manager and say, this is a solution I came up with in the
they're not on board um i'm sure i'm sure it'll be fine typically people don't want to be that uncivil they just want to kind of make their point um and then move on so i i'd try that um as a first first idea just to see if you can resolve this yourself if you still can't probably take it to your manager and just say look this is a solution they're still not on board is there you know something that that you'd recommend that we can do to make this work work for everybody um
Yeah, that's my thought really. You're absolutely right to have your focus time. That's when you work at your best, you get your stuff done. Clearly your manager is happy because they approved it and has let this roll for quite a while by the sounds of it. So that would be my thought. Go back to this person. You show a little bit of flexibility, maybe they'll show a little bit of flexibility too. And often this is just kind of the civil work behaviour that is needed. We don't need to be buddies, we just need to be respectful.
Or maybe, actually, maybe if you're doing really well, maybe that's what they're doing. They're trying to sabotage you a little bit by saying, well, I've been here five years, but this new guy, this young Turk, they're making me look bad. So maybe they're trying to sabotage you. I don't know. But yeah, no, I don't think you're being unreasonable. But equally, there might be
A little olive branch of flexibility might help this situation. An olive branch of flexibility. I love it. Okay, so that's the end of the world famous weekly workplace surgery. If you would write, if you would like to write a letter, lots of letters.
I call them letters because I'm old. They're obviously emails. They're obviously emails and DMs. You can see in the show notes how to email us. If you do want to send us a letter, then I don't even know our address here. We've been here 18 months and our address basically is just our names and then blaggai muster. That's it. I don't really understand. It would probably find us actually. It did. I forgot to pay a bill and I got a letter. So they clearly find us if they want to. I think it's just hello at truthliesandwork.com.
Yeah, exactly. That's the email address. If you have a question for Al, let us know. Don't, don't.
Better of asking Leanne. This Thursday, we are joined by the fabulous Jeanette Ramsden, CEO of The Curve Group. She's implemented something many of us dream about, and we've been talking about today, a four-day workweek across the entire HR recruitment company. And not just that, they're actually making it work. And just to clarify slightly, it's not strictly a four-day workweek, it's a reduced workweek. We'll go into all
all of that. And it's actual added benefits to a four-day work week with Jeanette on Thursday. I asked so many questions. She's such, such a cool entrepreneur. I asked about how it works, does everyone work the same day? What happens if your clients aren't happy about it? What happens if you're not there on Fridays and somebody, apparently Jamie Dimon only wants to call people on Fridays? Well, I asked Jeanette all of those questions and she has some fabulous answers.
Absolutely. Jeanette also talks about her experience as a woman CEO in a business world that seems to be increasingly fascinated with this masculine energy. You really won't want to miss this one. It's practical, it's thought-provoking, and there's not a beanbag or fruit bowl in sight.
Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for sticking with us. Subscribe. Sticking with us? Sounds like it was a bit of a bad episode. Yeah, it's almost our third birthday. Oh, it is, isn't it? It's exciting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very exciting. 200th episode coming up about my birthday. Is it? Did the maths? Well, I didn't do the maths. I went to chat GPT and said, we do two episodes a week. We're on to this currently this episode. What date would the 200th episode be in? They said it'd be 21st of May, I think.
exciting anyway sorry that's anyway you carry on um subscribe um only about 10 of you that watches on youtube subscribe it's a bit weird why show us some love why are you the way you wear are you a red is that what it is can we just try and be a bit more yellow please oh i actually don't understand the references i didn't bother to learn about it um what we say yeah subscribe
This segment's going really well. If you want to get in touch, you'll leave all the details in the show notes. Tune in on Thursday. Connect with Grace later. Bye-bye. In terms of that... I don't know what I'm going to say there. That was really good. Debates are still raging and companies are experimenting... Does this come at an interesting time? ...about Grace's... ...a new hire who seems qualified. Oops. I've been asked to mentor a new guy who has been...
I've been asked to mentor a new hire who seems overqualified for their role. Do they have a name? I'm a senior developer who blocks out two hours a day of deep work. I'm a senior developer.