210. Could £139k be the cost of motherhood? PLUS! The death of job boards, emotion hacks and the best manager stories on LinkedIn
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Coming up this week in work... The gender pay gap doesn't exist.

At least that's the claim from our guest expert today. And his hot take may just change the way you think about women, equity and the workplace altogether. And one of the giants of the recruiting world filed for bankruptcy last week. So why is the world of recruitment changing so fast? And in the workplace surgery, what gift is appropriate to get for an employee who is essentially a family member? We have a question from a listener who's just bought his mum's business,

and wants to do something nice for a long-term employee without it backfiring. This is Truth, Lies and Work. The award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. My name is Al. I'm a business owner. And together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's get into the episode right after this word from our lovely sponsors. You like case studies, Leanne. Mm-hmm.

Here's one from HubSpot about Sandler training and how they cut their sales cycle in half using HubSpot's AI tools. In half? That sounds a bit far-fetched, Al. The numbers are actually pretty solid. They used Breeze, which is HubSpot's AI tool suite, to personalize every customer interaction. And as a result, their qualified leads quadrupled, their click-through rates jumped by 25%, and people spent three times longer on their landing pages. I think I'd

worry that using AI would kind of remove the human touch. Fair point, but not in this case. In fact, using Breeze, they actually enhanced it. So if this sounds like something you want for your organization, not you, Leanne, the listener, go to HubSpot.com to see how Breeze can help your business grow.

Welcome back. It is July. Happy July. Yes, so we're officially in the last, well, I think we've officially been in the last second part of the year for about 30 days, but it's July. The days are getting shorter. Winter is coming. Don't say that. Oh man. Doesn't feel like it here in Bulgaria. If you're wondering why we're in Bulgaria, go back to episode 201. We explain everything there. But yes, it was 35 degrees today, which is quite cold.

So we've got the air con on. So if there's a slight hum on this one, I really apologise. But I'm not really that sorry because I'm not going to turn it off. I will melt in front of your eyes if we don't put that thing on. So yeah, sorry about that. Anyway, Leigh, your favourite time of the week, I believe. It is time for the news roundabout. Cue that lovely jingle. Okay, my love, what have you seen this week? It turns out that there are good managers in the world. In fact, there are some great ones. Yay! Yay!

We found them. Yay! No, we knew they were out there. So some of you might remember a few weeks ago, we did a story about bad bosses and shared horror stories. And this came from an original post from Laura Laniere on LinkedIn, who had hundreds of comments about bad bosses. We shared them on the podcast. We reshared it on LinkedIn. It's all getting very meta at this point.

We had a listener and former guest, Sarah Wiener, reach out. She said there should be a part two to this conversation. We've covered the bad manager stories. Now we need to look at the good manager stories. I like that idea. Laura liked that idea.

So we did. We posted on LinkedIn. And today, Al, I have some of the good boss stories for you. All the warm, fuzzy feelings that are just going to give you hope in the world. I love this. And obviously, as regular listeners know, LinkedIn's not really for me, so I don't really go on it. So I've not seen this. So I've not seen any of this. So this is all brand new. Yeah, it is. It is. It is all.

Thank you, Laura.

She said,

We had some lovely responses. I'm not going to lie, there weren't quite as many good boss stories as there were horror stories, but that's an opportunity we'll talk about later. Well, there's no movie called Good Bosses, is there? No, that's true. There's a prequel called Bad Bosses. That's true. But for now, let's just get in the little nice play, shall we? So the first story shared came from Jacqueline Ladeau. She is a

content marketer, Oxford grammar enthusiast, no, sorry, Oxford comma enthusiast. I'll be honest, I think I was about 28 before I knew what an Oxford comma was. Hang on, I think I know what it is. It's like the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse or something and helping your uncle Jack off a horse. No, maybe that's wrong.

What's the Oxford comma? Maybe it is. The way that I've seen it used and tend to use it or not use it, but Americans tend to use it, is when you have a list of things. So you put a comma after each item. The Oxford comma would be the comma before the and. Oh, okay. So yeah, anyway, we might want to cut that out. It's a bit boring. Anyway.

I like it. Talk about Jack in a Force. Jacqueline, tell us, school us please on what the Oxford comma actually is because clearly we don't know between us. So Jacqueline said, my boss steps up to the bat to defend us if we feel we're being treated unfairly. He recently went out of his way to get me a spot bonus for a new type of work project I picked up and he and his boss have been supportive when I voiced my desire to become a content manager.

and are brainstorming tangible ways for me to get on that path. Oh, that's a nice story. Yeah, absolutely. Some proactive career development there. We like to hear that.

We also had a comment from Sarah, Sarah Wiener, who suggested this segment in the first place. She said, after both my parents passed away, I had boxes of their papers and writing that they had done throughout their lives. I wanted concentrated time to go through them, a part of the grieving process too. I asked my VP if I could have a couple of months leave. He said, sure. We worked together to find out the coverage and I was very grateful. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it is nice, isn't it? And I think it's such an important thing. We did do an episode on grief in the workplace.

Oh, would it be just before Christmas? Yeah. Go back to that. Because it's a difficult, difficult thing to navigate as a manager. So if you want to be a great manager and be like Sarah's manager, then go and check out that episode. Also had a really nice extinct one from Adrian Cuesta, who just says, I do marketing on his LinkedIn profile. We like that. He says more actually. He says, I do marketing, sometimes communications, winner of awards, average cook, often cycle. Cool.

Psycho or cycle? Cycle. Cycle. Oh, right. Okay. Bicycle. Anyway, Adrian said, once had a boss who used to say, go home. Still the best performance review I've ever had. I've had a few bosses who said that to me before. I'm not sure it's the same vibe that Adrian's talking about. I don't think it is. I don't think it is.

We then had one from Vanessa Childers. I'm not going to lie, Vanessa wrote two comments worth of brilliant praise for her manager. This is a long one, so I'm not going to read it all. We simply don't have the time, but I will read some of the highlights. So she called out her manager, Megan French Dunbar. Excellent name, Megan.

And here are some of the things that she said. On my first day, we talked about miscarriages, breakups and the non-linear chaos that led us there. No small talk or performative onboarding, just full presence. And no, it wasn't employer love bombing. It was a beginning of a years-long working relationship that aged like fine wine.

She coined the term E F W O. Everything fucking works out because radical trust is her M O in outcomes, but also in people. She trusted me with a whole magazine, did remote work in 2018 before it was cool. Didn't micromanagement, micromanage my time. Um, just, yeah, lovely, lovely stuff. It goes on. Do you like that? Yes.

Yeah. Oh, no, sorry, MFD. I thought you were talking about MFD. No, Megan Furlong Detroit. What was the name of the boss? Megan French Dunbar. There we go. What a great name, MFD. MFD. MFDFTW. Yeah, it was really nice. We're also the ones that were really nice about Megan. She's the kind of leader who says, say no more, take the day off, I've got you, I means it.

She loves dogs at a level that rivals mine. And if you know me, that's saying something. If we only had more Megans in the world. Yeah, be more Megan. Be more MFD. Be more MFD. We need a hashtag. So if you're listening to this, let's get this hashtag going. Hashtag MFD. Be more MFD. Yes. What are we going to go with? We need to give people a clear...

Let them choose. It's a democratic process. And whichever hashtag does better will be the one that wins. Okay. I also had another lovely story from Cara Daly, who is in business psychology. Cara said, you might recognise his name, Al. I'm landing straight in here to shine a light on Paula Brockwell.

Paula. Oh, she's awesome. Yeah, she is. No surprise that Paula is an awesome manager. But Cara said, shedding a light on Paula for consistently seeing things in me that I have a blind spot for and then giving me so many supportive opportunities to recognize them in myself and keep building on them. I'm not sure if there is a character limit on L.I. comments.

but I don't think there is space to list all the ways that she has helped positively shape things for me over the last nine months of working together. There we go. So Paula Brockwell, an amazing manager and also an amazing, if I remember, she also helps pensioners do marathons or something? Yeah.

There's something she does around that. And she does loads of Christmas baking as well. Baking brownies at Christmas that she sends out to hundreds of people. Where does she get the time, Lee? We do two episodes a week and that's it. I know. And she's psychologising at the highest of levels. Yeah, no, it's lovely. Paul actually replied to this that I thought was really sweet. He said, it's a pleasure to work with you and see you bloom. And bloody hell, are you doing that? Not sure how I'm going to keep up, to be honest. Oh, what a really nice woman. Love!

Lovely, lovely stuff, isn't it? So nice, nice, warm, fuzzy stories there. Give us all a bit of hope. Hope is important. Hope is an important part of our psychological capital. And we need that to get through the tough times. And man, are times tough.

So yeah, go and check out the post. If you have any stories to share, add them to it. The convo is still going. I will leave a link in the show notes. Al, tell me what you've seen this week. Fabulous. We're talking of tough times. Then one of the giants from like 2005, 2010 has just declared what I think is called Chapter 11 bankruptcy. What I understand that to be is they've not gone bankrupt.

but they're looking for protection from going bankrupt from their creditors. That's what I believe that means in America. Slightly different in the UK. We don't have that over here. No, as someone who's been bankrupt. So, Monster.com. Monster.com was the big job search site back in about 2005, 2006, all the way through to about 2015 or 16. And they are now seeking protection from bankruptcy. What went wrong? Well, there's a few things...

It sounds like a few things went wrong with the organisation and a few things went wrong just with the world, the world of work. I believe they changed hands several times, now part of a private equity group. Also, I think they've got a, do you know Randstad? The people, the Dutch Randstad. Of course, yeah. Of course, yeah. I think they have a minority shareholding in it. But I think there was a little bit of mismanagement there, but also just fundamentally, the

The way that people apply for jobs has completely changed since 2005. Back in 2005, Lee, now when did you graduate? Was it 07? 2006. So how did you get your first job? Was it nepotism?

No, I took a year out before I went back to do my Masters. My first job was selling newspaper advertising space back in the time when that was even a thing. And I got it because there was like an open day recruitment interview thing at the Palace Hotel in Manchester. Oh, nice. And I was walking past and there's a billboard outside. So I went in, had an interview and started on Monday. Brilliant. You were like, I'm unemployed. I might as well go in there, see what's going on. Come out with a job. Fabulous. Yeah.

Well, this is going to show you how old, talking to newspapers, it'll show you how old I am because the last job I had, I literally applied from an ad in the newspaper. Wow.

I literally took the newspaper, cut it out, and I went through. But then when I was applying back in like, this would be a one or something, 2001, 2000, 2001. When I was applying, then what you used to do is go down all the ads in the newspaper and then you'd like sort of send off your email. Would it be an email back then? Yeah, probably it would have been an email. But also then sometimes you had to go and take your CV somewhere. And that was such a pain in the backside to go and do that. So when Monster Jobs came out, Indeed and all these, they were like the Google of job searches. Yeah.

They just meant that you could just go in there and tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Right. I can apply for 100 jobs. Bosh. Done. And that's the way it used to work. But of course, since the pandemic and also with the younger generations have got a different approach to the way they look for jobs, like spray and pray. I'm much more like I don't I don't care for that phrase. You don't enjoy it.

don't enjoy what came out of your mouth just now. A little throwback to last Tuesday. One of my favorite bits of last Tuesday, I started talking about vibe coding and the young one, I don't enjoy what came out of your mouth. And what she meant was, I don't understand, I think, but it was a bit of a Freudian thing. I'll tell you who Freud was in a second, Leanne. Don't worry. I'll catch you up. Just to put this in context for someone who's like maybe going, so what? It's like Google declaring bankruptcy.

Because Monster sort of made this entire industry of online jobs. They were the ones who defined this industry, created this industry, just like Google created the search industry. I know that Yahoo is going to look forward to your letters from Yahoo. Yahoo. Yahoo. Why, what am I saying? Yahoo. Oh, well done, well done. It's not that good. I had to do it twice. Bing. Microsoft Bing. Bing.

Oh, wow. Is that still a thing? Apparently. Apparently they've got like 2.3% of the search.

of the global search, but that's only because Apple defaults, Apple defaults to big, I think on their Safari and, and all the old people don't know how to change it. So it's just, it is a relatively big thing, probably something which isn't going to be a massive surprise to anyone who does recruitment these days, because if you are applying for jobs, you probably don't use a monster.com. If you are recruiting, you're probably likely to use much more sort of specialized job boards, perhaps,

I know that a lot of people, you do a lot of work with people building their recruitment processes. Job boards aren't necessarily a thing these days or is it more remote work or what? Niche boards, yeah. It's the end of an era. Another thought actually just on that, I was reading something just last week that something like the number of applications for jobs going through LinkedIn has increased by something like 22% since the beginning of the year. Wow.

And it's something insane, like 11,000 applications made per day through LinkedIn. So yeah, I think LinkedIn's a big competitor now as well because it's easy then to use, stay on the platform to look at what's going on in the organisation, what they're saying about values and culture, see who's working there, maybe get in touch with them. It's all just kind of the one place to do it, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah, everything combined is no real surprise, really, is it? Okay, Lee, what else have you seen, my love? Has science found an actual emotion hack? Oh, go on, tell me. Yeah, this is about emotional regulation. You mentioned last week, Al, that we don't tend to run in the same online circles. But in my online circles, I feel like I'm seeing a post every day, if not two or three, about emotional regulation.

Now, I would imagine that a lot of people see those posts and go, cool, what's emotional regulation? That's what I would do. Yeah, that's a fair question. I must admit, sometimes I need to think about it because there's so many different terms knocking around in the world, isn't there? So, yeah, no. Tell us what is it?

So what is it? Emotional regulation is basically the ability to manage how you feel so your emotions don't take over. So if you've ever snapped at somebody when you're a bit stressed or felt frozen at getting bad news or just sit in existential crisis for three hours on the sofa, that is emotional regulation or not emotional regulation. Irregulation. Irregulation, yeah. You're not regulated. Oh my God.

So yeah, that's what it is. And if it goes on for a bit too long, it can all start to get a little bit messy, especially if it's in the workplace.

And understandably, life is stressful right now. Lots of ambiguity, lots of change, lots of uncertainty. Everybody's getting a little bit wired. And with that, we might struggle to regulate our emotions quite as effectively. So I came across a study this week that gives us a hack for this, according to science. So you can stay cool and calm out. So the study basically looked into something called cognitive reappraisal. I know, another fancy word. It basically means...

Can I think about this a bit differently? Okay. I'm going to be honest. I'm slightly underwhelmed by the hack at this point, but try and re-whelm me. Okay. So if you don't like it, just don't think about it. So you're in a meeting, you're feeling a bit stressed. You can feel yourself starting to boil at the point that you reach over the table and slap your co-host across the face.

Not cool. Things have got serious. We need to regulate our emotions. And the researchers say we can do this through cognitive reappraisal, thinking about things differently. So one, reframe the situation. So instead of thinking, my boss ignored me today, you'd think they might just be really busy. Or instead of thinking, I'm anxious, something must be wrong. You go, I'm anxious. This is normal. It will pass.

Yeah. So if I'm at work and Barry from accounts comes over and he smells of sweat and he's got BO and he just like leans across me and accidentally wipes his forearm of sweat across my forehead, I just think differently and go, well, at least I didn't get run over on the way to work this morning. Is that what we're saying? It's a very specific example, but essentially, yes. Right. Got it. Okay.

So anyway, the research asked people to try one of these techniques twice a day while they were at work. And that was it. No big program, apps, AI-driven anything. Just reframing a situation. And it worked. The results found that people felt less stressed. They were calmer and more focused. They didn't snap at colleagues as frequently. And they got more done. They were more productive. And they were more productive.

And this is what was really interesting. The benefits lasted. So a month later, they were still doing better in terms of their emotional regulation. Even a short, sharp, intentional change of mindset in the way that we think can have a longer term impact.

Isn't that cool? Very cool. Yeah. So if you're managing a team right now or just want to try and hold your shit together yourself, it could be something really, really useful to try. I'll leave a link in the show notes to the study. I'm not going to lie. The title isn't necessarily the catchiest I've seen. So I have also written it up in English on Medium. So I'll leave the links to both of those in the show notes for you. So there you go. How to...

emotionally regulate yourself according to science love it subtitle just think about something else is that what yeah

Reframe. Reframe. Reframe. Yeah, okay. No, to be fair, serious example. I'm not talking about Sweaty Barry now. Okay. Serious example. When I used to do call, when I had this job I was talking about before, it used to be cold calling and selling advertising. And I used to make a hundred like lines on a piece of paper at the beginning of the day. And every time I got a no, I'd tick off the line. And that was my way of going, okay, once I get, I reckon once I get 10 or 15 no's, I'll get a yes. Okay.

And it was weird because most, I realized most of the calls that I want, they just weren't answering or, so when I was looking for a yes, actually what I was getting was maybe out of every 10 calls, three no's and seven people who weren't there. And this helped me to refocus. So yeah, that was going back in 2001. That's cognitive reappraisal.

Oh, inaction. I should co-author that paper. Anyway, Lee. I thought you could read the title of that paper. That's a good point. And that's no shade. You're right, though. With words like that, when I see titles that got loads of... I have to sit there. It panics me a little bit. I'm like, there's seven words in this title and I've never heard of six of them. Yeah, I've never seen six of them. And the seventh word is the. Yeah.

So, Leigh, does that conclude our business? That concludes our business, I think. Okay, so after this very short break, we'll be back with the spicy hot take, possibly the spiciest we've ever had, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leigh-Anne. Don't go anywhere, don't go anywhere. See you in a second. Hey, you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you. If you're enjoying Truth, Lies and Work, there's another podcast on the HubSpot network that I think you're going to really, really like. Are you talking to me? Yeah.

I just love how real Eman is and hugely helpful in her advice.

In her latest episode, she's 34 weeks pregnant and breaks down exactly how she's systematizing her agency so it runs smoothly while she's on maternity leave. And of course, as a psychologist, I really appreciate how Eman is normalizing failure as just a simple part of the business journey. You can listen to Mistakes That Made Me wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back. It is time for our hot take, where we hand the mic over to somebody with a spicy opinion about the world of work. And today might be the spiciest one ever and the bravest man in the world because we've got a man coming on who's talking about the gender problem.

pay gap. So let's go and hear from Antonio Ribeiro from Yertle.co.uk and find out he's about to be cancelled. My name is Antonio Ribeiro. I'm the founder and CEO of Yertle, an insurance technology firm with a social impact that supports

parents and carers in the workplace, as well as parents and carers through their nurseries and their schools. We're on a mission to help level the playing field for people who've got dependents, be those adults and childcare dependents. I have to ask you the question. We're here to ask, Antonio, what is your hot take? The gender pay gap doesn't exist. That's a bold statement, Antonio. I'll be honest.

Some of the hot takes we get are mildly warm. That is spicy. It is. It is. But I should say, let me give you a caveat. It's true that it doesn't exist. But the truth is that it doesn't exist up until the age of 30. So tell me more. So what we're saying is the gender pay gap doesn't exist before women reach their 30s. Do we have any data behind it? What have you seen at Eurostar? Where is this coming from?

Yeah. So basically the nature of that data is that,

On average, a person will have or a woman will have a child at the age of 32. Obviously, they're not explicitly forced out of the workplace when they have kids. But when they start to have kids around the age of 32, it becomes a choice that a lot of women are making because they simply can't reconcile work and care. And there's a really great entity and institution that I'd love to give a shout out to. There's done so much research in this space and partly where this data comes from, which is Careers After Babies.

And they've spoken to literally tens of thousands of mothers, parents, workplaces, and they do a lot of work in workplaces as well. And it's a really, really shocking statistic. And one that basically kicks off a massive divergence up until probably the ages of 55, 60, that all culminates in a man and a woman of equivalent comparison in terms of their workplace status, for example, and of course, age.

that a man will retire with £139,000 more in their pension pot than a woman. And that's a statistic that's come from PensionBee. They've done really awesome work into the impact of caregiving and the overlap

with um earning power earning potential over a career i know that there'll be there'll be people listening to this and and i'm gonna i'm gonna suggest maybe more males but there could be women as well um or however people identify as a gender who are thinking well that's just the way it is isn't it they had a kid they took time off of course they're not going to get paid the same as as a man who's been in the workplace the entire time that's just the way it is

How unjust is it that women and men don't have equal opportunities as it relates to access to work? So we know that society, both men and women, benefit from people having children for every obvious reason. Companionship, emotional reasons are a lot of people would say that the reason that we exist as a species is to procreate.

But then to then saddle women with this responsibility in a really uneven way only allows women to reach one conclusion, which is after one, two, three years of trying to balance work and caregiving, there will be so many different occasions where

A woman will be bumping up against their work deadline at the same time that her child is sick, at the same time as the child needs to be dropped off here, dropped off there, it's summer, the summer clubs, whatever it may be. And all of the different contexts and circumstances change depending on the child, the household, the age of the child, etc.,

But a couple of times, three times, four times, a woman will just say, oh, that's really frustrating. But, you know, I'll crack on with things. But that happens often enough for enough weeks, months, years in a row that a person can only logically conclude that at least,

I can't continue to work the hours that I'm working. So I work fewer hours. Perhaps I'll also conclude that I can't work in this company that doesn't support me. Perhaps I'll also conclude that actually I can't work in any company because no company in society at the moment has really understood how difficult this is to do. The truth is we do have to do something and we can't just stand by idly. Our companies function better when there is a balance inside of the company that's representative of our clients, our partners, our community, right? And so...

It's just an atrocity that a woman, as she starts to have children, the statistic starts to kick in. It's another really scary statistic, which is two in three women will reject a promotion.

because they think, okay, I can just about manage with the job that I've got right now. And so why would I seek out or accept a promotion given that I'm already struggling to keep things in balance and in tune here? So it's just something that really needs to be addressed, I think. It is a matter, I think, of equality of opportunity, which I think ultimately in a modern society that we live in, surely we need to do better and want to do better. If somebody is net...

less well off when they hire professional help because they need to go and work and have the bandwidth and the time to go and work, then naturally any rational person would say, well, one of us needs to stay at home.

And generally speaking, that's the woman who would stay at home. Still, that's the society's expectation. And society will probably reward a man more so than a woman. So again, rationally speaking, a typical couple of a man and a woman, the conclusion will be the man continues because the man will climb that corporate ladder quicker and to a higher level on average. And so

For as long as I can make the maths of my household and make my feeling of wealth and prosperity, I can boost that more by having one stay-at-home parent. When you take both childcare or adult care, there is a massive dearth of paid professionals or access to paid professionals across the entire world, which is why actually Carers UK, a really prominent charity representing the interests of carers,

has published a statistic which was really scary, which is 12,000 people each day become a caregiver in the UK. And that's because they're filling a void that's left by professional services because either as a function of there not being the same amount of supply as there is demand for professional care, either the price point gets out of whack for most people to afford,

Or alternatively, and I guess this is just an extension of that first thing, is that you conclude as a household that you need to fill that void that's left by the access to professional care with informal or family caregiving or unpaid caregiving, as it's called. So we need to find ways, creative ways, to boost the supply.

of caregiving support for people we need to find ways to I guess cheapen the cost or the access to that paid professional care and lots of companies do get involved in paying on behalf of their employees when there are care emergencies obviously Yertle is one such example of a product that tries to help companies help their employees who've got dependents either by helping them boost

their avenues of support from their community as well as third-party professionals. Or also in our case, we make access to funding available to parents and carers when their original childcare or adult care arrangements fall through. We provide a cash allowance that can be spent in whatever way makes their life easier. People want to show up, be the best professional, achieve their career ambitions.

Their employers want them to show up, do the best job that they can, grow the business. And so this isn't actually a misalignment of wants or incentives. Everybody wants to do what's best for their family, wants to do what's best for their employer because those things are interlinked, right? So when we were thinking about a solution to this problem, we realized that actually

It's just because people don't have alternatives that they're turning to this, I guess, nuclear option of pulling sickies when they actually just need to tend to a childcare emergency, for example. So what we thought was, okay, at its crux, when I wake up and my child is sick and the nursery says to me, sorry, your child won't be allowed into the nursery for at least two days because they've got vomiting and diarrhea. Suddenly I'm sitting there thinking, sometimes, by the way, the call comes in the middle of the day, interrupting your meetings or whatever it may be.

suddenly I'm thinking, wow, my whole next two days of work that I had planned out meticulously is broken down. So we realized actually the thing that will get that person into work, which is where they want to be, or at least they feel they need to be, the thing that will help them is twofold. One, money for an alternative and two, help them find an alternative. In a world where there's not that many professional alternatives, we needed to build a solution and we have through our app that connects people to their family, their friends, their neighbors,

in such a way that they're able to build a resilient care team around them where they can share care tasks at short notice. And that's when, just to continue the example of the child who's got vomiting and diarrhea and gets excluded from nursery for 48 hours, Yertle's insurance products that we call a care cash plan will step in and provide a cash allowance for each day of that illness that is commensurate with the cost of backup care at £18 per hour, so roughly around £150 a day.

that you can use however you want. There's no strings attached. There's no need for receipts. So it could be just, I call grandma and granddad up and say, listen, there's an Uber outside of your house. Jump in it. You need to be at my house in the next 45 minutes because I've got to crack on with an important board pitch or something like that. Equally, it could be to pay for extra hours at the babysitter that you know, love and trust that's down the road.

Equally, if you trust a stranger, which I think a lot of people struggle to do with their children, you can go and find a third party professional. So it's a case of just empowering people with the two things that they need, which is alternatives and financing to actually fund those alternatives. It's such an interesting, interesting product, Antonio. I know our listeners are going to want to learn even more about it. Where's the best place for them to find you and to find out more about Yertle? Our website is probably the first best place. So yertle.co.uk.

And LinkedIn, we're super active on LinkedIn through our Yertle pages. And equally, my email is antonio.yertle.co.uk.

I'm not going to lie. I thought he was going to go down a slightly different route. And I thought you are a brave, brave gentleman to come on and say something like that. Yeah, it did make me chuckle and a really nice angle on it. I think one of the things which does make me think, though, is that I've read a lot of stuff that Gen Zs are being parents or becoming parents a little bit later and later. I've also seen there's plenty of stuff all over Twitter or Twix talking all about. Now, what's the term they use when there's a

Like it's a reduction in birth rate. Is it birth rate reduction? Would that be the term? Would that be the term?

I'd go with that, yeah. Let's go with that, yeah, just for lack of another term. So I don't know whether that naturally in 10 years time we might be looking at the pay gap might actually be sort of 36 or 37, but still, it's a problem. It is a problem and it was quite a shocking number that you might, I'm not sure if you kept it in, but you might have heard it when Antonio said the £139,000 poorer by end of career women are compared to men. That's not like a small amount. We're not talking like change.

significant amount of money. What was really enlightening about the conversation with Antonio was kind of this flipping it that, yes, women have children. Yes, that interrupts their career for a period of time, depending on various situations.

But what we're doing as a society is we're punishing caregivers. We're punishing from a financial perspective, a lifestyle perspective, potentially a health perspective, the role it is to care, whether it be for children, whether it be for adults. There's so many

unpaid carer this unpaid labor is a significant problem in society if we don't have the government infrastructure the financial infrastructure the care infrastructure to either deal with it so people can still work and be financially equal at point of retirement or

or have a system in place where this unpaid labor isn't unpaid. It's rewarded at some point either in the moment or in terms of benefits throughout life. It's a really interesting situation.

societal problem that is only going to get worse as we have a much larger aging population. And I think it might sound very abstract right now, but I think if it's five, ten years, we're going to start to feel it. Our services will get even more overwhelmed than they already are. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let me just play the part of a dusty old man for a second, a business owner, and say, if...

If women are, now we're talking predominantly women because that is what happens. I'm not, I'm not genderizing. I'm not saying that that should be the way. I'm just saying this is how it is. If women take time off work to care, say they take 15 years out of work, what, I'm expected to pay for that, am I? That just doesn't, you know what I mean? I totally can see both points of view, but if they're not in work and they're not working,

That seems to me as a business owner, well, that's the end of it for me. I don't have to worry about it anymore. And I think this is the trouble is typically it's the businesses that are left to solve a societal problem. And I don't think it is necessarily up to the businesses to solve this problem. I think it's above that. I think it's bigger than them. But what Yertle has done so cleverly is actually give businesses...

a way of solving this problem that is very light touch and actually works in the business owner's best interest because it keeps the people they need in work. So I think it's actually a really innovative way to look at, is it the business leader's problem to solve? No, but this is a societal problem where we all need to play a part in solving it. And I think Yertle is a really cool solution to do that in a pretty easy way. Absolutely, absolutely. And of course,

150 quid a day comes out to the person who's having to take time off. But it's not the business who's paying because it's an insurance-backed thing. So it's just a standard, like just a business cost for a business. Seems like the best, genuinely does seem like the best win for everyone. Yeah, I agree. Really interesting. I will leave a link for Antonio so you can check out his details. Did you keep the bit in? He actually gave his email address.

out i was i'll include that in the show notes as well he was happy to share that um and of course his website as well so you can check out yertle okay it's my favorite time of the week it's the world famous weekly workplace surgery where i put your questions to leanne leanne's a chartered occupational psychologist she's here to answer your work related questions so question number one how do you thank an employee who's basically family

This person writes, I recently took over my mom's business and one of her longest serving employees coming up on a 10 year anniversary. She's kind, loyal, incredibly hardworking. And honestly, it feels like she feels like part of the family. I gave her a massage voucher. I better make sure I say that clearly. I gave her a massage voucher. Didn't give her a massage. I gave her a massage voucher for her birthday, which she loved. But I do want to do something more sentimental to mark this milestone. Lee, any ideas for a meaningful gift that truly says,

Thank you. I'm going to skip over the family bit. I'm just going to, I might come back to that later. But just to take your question as it is, what do we know? What do we know? What does psychology tell us? It's experiences over stuff is probably the really simple high level answer. We like experiences. They boost our happiness for longer, much more than things.

In terms of experiences, there's two things in life that we're all short of and that's money and time. So if you can give this person some time back in some way to maybe go away for a bit or give her some, saying it as well is always quite nice in case there's some variables there that you don't know about. So maybe a trip away somewhere. I don't know. I don't know this person. So it's very hard to be specific, but I would say experiences and anything you can do to give the person back some time.

would be really nice um I don't know if you have an office if you have a wall of fame if you have employees of the month or that type of thing you could you could give her one of those as well um yeah I don't really know where to go from here because I'll be honest the question makes me a little bit uncomfortable because of the family thing because you've just taken over your mum's business so I appreciate it's a family business this person's been with the business for 10 years that's awesome um

Did it say 10 years? I just made that up. No, it says 10 years. They're not family. They're not family. They're a part of your community. They're an important part of your community, important part of your business, important part of your world. But this mindset could potentially get you into trouble further down the line if something happens with this member of staff or indeed as you start to expand your business. Family doesn't stay a family very long if you've got 20, 30, 40, 50 employees involved.

The other thing as well in terms of what you can actually do to do something nice for this person, broader, think a bit more about her considerable contribution to the business and how you can reward that in terms of her career, her professional life. I don't know what that would look like, but it could be things like

Does she want to travel? Does she want to take a six month sabbatical knowing that her job is waiting for her? Does she want to pursue a different stream of her career, a development avenue that she hasn't had the opportunity to that still gives her a place in the business but you know is something new and fresh and challenging for her?

Are there elements of the job that she really hates and she just puts up with because she's very loyal? It's having these conversations saying, you know, we want you to be with us for another 10 years or until you retire. What can we do to make sure that the work is still interesting? It's still meaningful. It still gives you purpose. It's still rewarding. All of those questions are going to do much more to show this person how appreciated they are, how much you recognize them and how committed you are to keeping them in the business.

That in terms of the engagement you're looking for, the celebrating this person aspect of it, I think you're going to find much more success there than buying them a gold watch or sending them on a holiday. Is that harsh, Al?

No, actually, I think that's a really good point. And I think also we've got to think about is that this is potentially going to set a precedent for everyone who hits the 10 year anniversary. So you might be like, Oh, you know, this is, this is Marjorie. It is a female, isn't it? It's a woman. Um,

Yes, longest-serving employees. She's, yes. So it could be like, oh, Marjorie, you know, when I was a kid, Marjorie used to look after me when I was coming back from school and stuff. Separate that because that's Marjorie outside of work and then you've got Marjorie who works for you. So yes, just be careful. You might be setting a precedent. Secondly...

I really like that idea of a sabbatical. I really like the idea of, um, asking her what she wants the next 10 years to look like, because that's going to benefit you massively. Because if they, if this woman stays for another 10 years and does a sterling job for the next 10 years, you've got yourself an amazing employee. So, but yeah, like Leanne says, just be careful with family businesses. If you want to go back into the archives about episode 33, 34, we had Steven short on, um, who talked about family businesses. Um, and, um, uh,

Often they go awry. If you've seen Succession, then you'll know. So yeah, maybe just go and council, go back and look at that as well. Yeah. So if you want more help on that, how to approach that conversation, drop us another email, book in a chat, the link in LinkedIn. The link is on LinkedIn on the brain. The link to book a call with me or Al is always in the show notes. But yeah, I love the sentiment there.

I think we can expand on it to have the most impact. Okay, great advice. Question number two. What should I watch out for when hiring remotely for the first time? I run a fully remote business and I'm about to make my first hire. Congratulations. I found remote work productive so far, but I've never hired this way before. Are there any common pitfalls I should know about? What should I be looking for in order to make sure I bring in the right person?

Leanne, sounds like an answer. Yeah, I have some experience in this world. Yes, you do. I have recruited for a company that is fixed office. I've recruited for a company that works in the community. I've recruited for a company that's completely remote and had employees across various continents.

The biggest decision you're going to have to make is whether you're employing them, employing them, or if they're self-employed contractors. Because if you employ them, employ them, it can all get a little bit complicated in terms of where they are actually doing the work and the labor laws that apply there and then crossing that with where your business is. And that can get quite complicated. There are various platforms.

forms and you can use for that. Remind me which one. OysterHR.com. We've got the founder Tony come on recently. Yeah. So there are tools and apps out there, platforms to help you do that. The alternative is to hire people as freelancers, like tapping into the gig economy. They're all self-employed. They're long-term contractors. And I'll be honest, when I've worked for remote businesses, that has typically been what's done and typically been what's the most effective way

because it gives people the flexibility to build that portfolio career. It gives people the flexibility to dial up and down the work as and when and gives you the flexibility to be able to have a pool of contractors rather than staff that you're having to commit a salary to. So that's kind of just a first thought there.

After that, it's the same process as you'd recruit anyone. In fact, it's almost a bit easier because you have these niche job boards that we talked about before about remote work. FlexJobs comes to mind, but there's loads of them. Just Google it or put it into ChatGPT. They'll give you all of the lot. We know LinkedIn and the other platforms have a remote option now as well. And remote work is so highly sought after. You'll be flooded with applications. Flooded with applications.

To give you an example, I did a recruitment drive, would have been late 2020. No, it wouldn't have been 2021. So before the great resignation when everything was still really tight. But because we were doing remote roles, we must have got 250 applications in the first 24 hours of the job being advertised.

insane amount so you're going to get loads of applications in so with that it's really important to have a very clear and stringent screening process because you want to go through as many applications you can you want to go through them all ideally and you want to have a criteria to evaluate each CV on and they're a clear process to put them through because of the volume of applications you're going to get my advice would be to start with aspects of your recruitment process that are

So for example, asking them to complete an application form with certain answers in that you'll evaluate against a set criteria is a really good way of doing it. Or a work sample test is another really effective way of doing it because then you're sending all the candidates that make it through that first screening process the same exercise. They get it back within the same time frames. You evaluate them and you move forward there. So then you can knock that candidate pool down. So then when you are doing it,

interviews or other assessments so for example you want to just throw in a psychometric you're going to be doing with a much smaller talent pool which is going to be much less time intensive that kind of be my general advice there the key is going to be understanding exactly the job that you want doing in your business a lot of people when they hire their first person think about the person you don't want to think about the person you want to think about the job what does that job look like is it one job

Because if you are remote, you could recruit five people who are doing 10 hours a week doing various different things. There's so much flexibility when you recruit remotely. It's a gift as a business owner to have this set up. So I would counsel you to spend as much time thinking about the actual jobs, the actual work you want done within your business as you then do remotely.

designing your recruitment process to look for the right people to do that do that work if you broadly speaking get those two things right um then you'll be fine i think we do have an episode way back where now i think it might even be episode like three or four or something that talks about this in a lot more detail um but again if you want to um get in touch book a free um

free chat with me to go through in a bit more detail and specifics then please do. But broadly speaking, decide how you're going to employ them. Are they going to be employed or self-employed? Understand exactly the work that you need doing in your business. Is it one person? Is it potentially five? And then finally designing a really robust team

recruitment process around that that's going to nicely reduce your talent pool over time so when you're doing the high intense activities you've got smaller candidates to deal with brilliant brilliant can i ask you a couple of quick questions lee you talked about work sample what i'm guessing there is that someone does half a day work or a full day work or they do a project or something

Yeah, it's typically a project or a task. So say, for example, if we were going to have somebody to come and help us with truth and lies, we might say, right, your job is to put together a list of the top three trending terms in workplace culture this week with an angle of how we can talk about it. And it's probably only going to be, you probably want to keep it fairly simple.

It might only be an hour to two hours in terms of time. You don't want to take the mickey. But very specific, very embedded within the job they're actually going to be doing. And is this paid? Is this paid for? Typically, it's not. In my experience of doing that, I've had it occasionally. People push back and ask for it to be paid when I've explained the time required.

time expected to be spent on it people usually are okay with that or select themselves out of the recruitment process. It's something that you can think about as a business but I think to be honest it's not unreasonable as part of a recruitment process to put an activity like this in that is directly linked to the job that somebody is doing.

Because also you might find that there's people who will misunderstand the job and select themselves out because they don't enjoy the task that you give them. So I think it's worth knowing you might get some pushback, but not very much. Talking of people not understanding the task, I advertised for a copywriter and someone inquired and said, what do you want copying? Because I've got great writing. And I was like,

No, that's probably you out. Second question then, in order to screen people out, this is when I was back in, before we were working together, I once ran a job advert and said, please send me an email with a Google Doc attached. Now, anyone who just attached it or attached a Word document or put it in the body of the email, I just automatically went no because they couldn't follow instructions. Is that bad? No.

It's shaky ground in terms of potential unlawful practice because can you prove that that is very...

important to the job what is it you're trying to do that they were yeah because it was they they we use the google suite all day long so i wanted to make sure that they if they didn't use google then they were able to go and set up a gmail account and also create a google docs account and upload it there and but then also i wanted to get rid of the people who were like oh they say that but i'll just send a word it'd be fine yeah i mean you could do i mean i think we i used to do something similar where i'd always ask for a cover letter

And we'd still get probably three out of seven applications that wouldn't send a cover letter. I wouldn't necessarily completely exclude them, but against my checklist of things that they're going to pass the first screening, they've already got a cross against one thing that I've asked them to do.

So if you've asked them to do a Google Doc, if they've sent that in a Word doc, but they're hitting every other criteria that you wanted as part of that application, then I think you're kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face by the fact they just happened to send it in Word. They might have just overlooked it. They might be applying for various things at the same time. They're asking similar things.

It's worth a little investigation if they've hit enough of the points that you're looking for in every other part of that initial application. One last bit of advice from a fellow business owner is that this is going to be a tough time for you. Not you, Leanne, listener. This will be a tough time for you because...

You need someone to come in. You need to recruit someone because I'm guessing because there's now too much work for you to do. So your instinct is going to be, right, I need to get someone in fast because we are growing so fast and I need to get this done.

What actually happens with recruitment, I found as a business owner, is it usually takes about 10 times longer than you think. And then you'll be tempted halfway through to go, oh, screw it. We'll just have that person. Because you don't have enough time as it is. And now this recruitment's taking over another 10, 12 hours of your week. So...

Just manage your time carefully. Try not to panic and panic and just recruit the first person. And maybe look at it like Leanne said, freelancer. Is there someone who can perhaps take on a small part of your work to free up five to 10 hours a week for four weeks for you to go through this properly and give it the time it deserves?

Or indeed, engage a consultant who will lead that entire process for you. There you go. Someone who's an expert in remote first, I would have thought. Someone like Leanne. Okay, so question number three. How do I keep morale up when everything feels uncertain? I'm a manager in the US federal government. Oh my goodness. So sorry. Are you okay?

Oh dear. I think that's the question, isn't it? Yeah, are you okay? I imagine in the US federal government right now, a lot of doom and gloom. I'm trying to stay positive for my team, but I worry that too much optimism might come across as tone deaf. Fair point. Or dismissive even. How do I strike the right balance showing empathy while still uplifting my people when the future feels so uncertain? Ooh, this is a tough one, Leigh. Can you answer this? Well, I can.

Let's find out. Oh, you know, it's really tough. And I think you're falling into that classic great manager mindset.

where you want to do all the right things, where you think that you need to solve it and you don't need to solve it. You just need to hear how people are feeling. Like, you know, we joke, like, are you okay? Like, asking that question daily, are you okay? How was last night? How are things? It's really helpful. And just listening, letting people know

vent, letting people moan, let people share their concerns, making sure that they know that you hear them, offering support where you can, offering signposting while you can is going to be really all that you can do or potential resources, podcasts that talk about this stuff and kind of, you

Yeah, evaluate these things. There's really, it's like we were talking about last week in terms of what do you call Al, your something... Ellipse of give a shittery. Ellipse of give a shittery. Part of a Venn diagram if you're wondering what I'm saying. And it's the things that you can, it's basically thinking about what you can control and what you can't control. You can't control what is happening in the federal government right now. You can't control what is happening in geopolitics. You can't control any of that. You can't control what layoffs are going to come next. Right.

The only thing you can do, the only thing that you can control is how you show up for your people every day. And that really is, and it sounds so simple and ineffective, but I promise you it's not, is checking in, asking if they're okay, listening to them, letting them vent. It's going to be 90% of what you can possibly do at this point.

I mean, there are other little things that you can do. You're absolutely right. You don't want to tip into toxic positivity. You want to acknowledge how people are feeling and the fears that they have. That's part of the listening exercise that you'll do with them in that level of empathy. Equally, as we've heard, we can look at cognitive reappraisal. We can look at things of how do we reframe this? How do we look at this from a slightly different angle? How can we put a positive spin in terms of what it could mean for the future? What opportunities it uncovers?

It's really hard. But as we saw from the science and the research, even just really small reframes can have a lasting impact on our morale, on our performance, on our relationships with colleagues. And relationships is probably the final thing I'd say on this.

There is going to be a lot of survivor's guilt in federal government right now. There's going to be a lot of people wondering, why was it me that stayed? That is real and that is really hard to deal with. And you feel like an absolute nut for bringing it up because who am I? I've still got my job. I've still got a paycheck. Why should I be moaning about this?

It's hard because it pulls in feelings of imposter syndrome. It pulls in feelings of insecurity. Is it me next? There's lots of ambiguity going on. We continue to stay in that threat state. It's a really stressful, emotive time. So I think with that, it's acknowledging these things that people will be feeling and calling it out for them. You know, has anyone else been feeling a bit of survivor's guilt about all this? Yeah.

Did anyone else see the thing on the news last night and worry about that? Being maybe proactive in calling out these things that may be difficult for people to speak about or find the vocabulary for could be really useful as well. And with that, it's going to build this camaraderie where we're in this together. We are the survivors. We're going to get through this, whatever happens. And it's those bonds that are also going to help with people's morale and well-being as well.

A tough, tough time, my friend. But the fact is that you even asked this question shows that you care enough to make a difference to the people in your team. So well done to you. Yeah, well done. Well done. And also, come on, let's be honest, it's US federal government. Everyone who works there knows that...

you know, you don't have the power to go and completely revolutionize stuff. One of the wealthiest people in the world tried to go and revolutionize stuff and got his ass kicked and handed back to him. And then he went back to what he was doing. So I think that being realistic, people might complain to you about why is it like this? And you know, this needs to change. And why did this need to happen? The fact is they probably know already that you can't do anything about it. They're just complaining and venting. And like Leanne said, the best thing you can do is just listen to them and say, well,

You know, well, you know what to say. I don't work for the US Federal Government. I don't know what I'd say, but you will, you'll know, I'm sure. Okay. So that is the end of our surgery. If you have a question you'd like me to put to the lovely Leanne, then all the links from the show notes, or you can just email hello at truthliesandwork.com. So we will see you next week. Later this week. It's Tuesday. I'll be back to see you again on Thursday.

yeah, we're definitely not pre-recording this. We're not recording before the weekend. It's not tomorrow and the day after. It's tomorrow, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll, that's what I meant. That's exactly what I meant. Uh, so we will see you soon. Um, and, um, we've, we've got a little super group we talked about before. If you are a bit of a super fan or you're just a fan and you want to help direct how this, how this podcast put together, you'll see there's a few things we experimented with, particularly over the summer. Um,

We'd love your opinion. So even if you don't want to be part of a WhatsApp group, just if there's something you see and you like or something you see you don't like, just get onto LinkedIn, message us, DM us, or you can email again. All the links are in the show notes. Anything to add? Like, subscribe, review, if you wouldn't mind. It really helps other people find the show and build our little community that we have here. You mentioned LinkedIn, didn't you? That's where I tend to...

to hang out if you see something interesting send it through to me I might talk about it I might not but we'll both have fun finding out exactly if you want to speak to Leanne go and find LinkedIn if you want to go and speak to me go I'm probably on Bebo or Myspace I think send a carrier pigeon to Bulgaria it'll find me speak to you soon bye bye and this episode is brought to you by a grumpy peanut and a very inquisitive Bobby B are you talking to me?

I'm talking, no, I'm talking. The tone that you talk to me in, Bobby, is exactly the same. Yes, it's July. Sorry, I should do that again. I'm going to need to do that a little bit again. One second. Let me just, I'll go to drinking my tea and then you can, you can, I'll cut to me and then you can start again. Has science, no, yes, this is about emotional, emotional, fucking hell, sorry, I must start again.

Okay, so after this very short break, we're back with our world-famous work. So after this very short break, we'll be back after... Can you just look over for us? So after this very short break, we'll be back with the spicy hot take, possibly the spiciest... Absolutely. Okay, so question number... Absolutely. Okay, so question number two. What should I... You mean it's just you in a bar in Bali? Don't be so deep.