Ep 1048 | Jase Claps Back at a Public Diss on ‘Duck Dynasty’ & Why Organized Religion Is Unappealing
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Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still. I am unashamed. What about you?

Three, two, one. Did y'all miss me? Did everybody miss me? Welcome back to Unashamed. Zach is so chomping at the bit because he's been gone for a week, Jays, that he just can't help himself. He's just, he's bubbling over. I heard you came back a day early. That's a bad sign. I did come back a day early. So you went to the Queensland, the motherland, Great Britain. Yeah, I went back to the homeland and...

where we're still considered tyrants, but... Who's we? Americans. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. They don't like us. Maybe it was how you carried yourself. No, I carried myself. You are our representative. Well, you know, we...

My buddy's from England, and every Fourth of July, he sends me a text that says, Happy Tyrant's Day. That's what he says. Happy Tyrant's Day. So I guess it's perspective. What a view of the world. We threw the yoke off, and they're still grappling about it. We did. It was interesting. We went out to Oxford to see S. Lewis' house, which was pretty cool. That would be awesome. Yeah.

Was it just a little cottage, little humble place? Yeah, it's called the Kilns. So there's these brick kilns that were there. God doesn't live in buildings built by human hands. I didn't say he was in there. But we were in there. You were. For sure. It was cool. And then they called it, there's a building in Oxford that they called the New Building. And it was built like the 1800s.

That is the one thing about Europe that when you see what they call new compared to us. Well, that's why I thought you would start with the one job that you were given. You were on a mission. I was. Did you ever say, I'm on a mission from Jace? Are you like George W. Bush? Can we say mission accomplished? I'll tell you. I will tell you this. And, um,

And Jason actually did reach out to me. Actually, I reached out to him in the middle of the trip. He did. That's how much you miss me, because everybody thinks our relationship. He never reached out to me, Dave, so that tells you something. Actually, I did call you, Al. You just did not answer. And then your phone said that you weren't accepting phone calls. I don't know what that means. Everyone says our relationship is strained. That was a sign of all the people, because you were homesick. Yeah, and you answered his call.

He did answer. I did. I thought it was going to be some kind of weird dial tone or like, because I didn't know you're in a different country. Well, you know, their ring is even different over there. It's kind of got a boop, boop, boop, boop. I thought it might be an introduction like, would you like to take the call? What's weird is there was a lady sitting next to me on the plane and she started to cough. And I was like, her coughing had an English accent. Oh, wow. That's funny. Yeah.

I was like, that's weird. I didn't even know that was possible. I don't know for your jokes, but that was funny. That was pretty funny. No, I mean, I'm not joking. Like, as I'm listening, I really think she's British because her cough had an accent to it. Yeah, that's funny. Did it sound more proper than our cough? Yeah, it was kind of like a... Because the Queen's English sounds a little more proper when they say it. But I kind of like the way we drag it out. It just, you know, just for effect. Well, really, if you think about it, if Genesis 11 is true...

A little place called the Tower of Babel. Let me give you a spoiler alert. It is true, but go ahead. And also known as ancient Babylon. Then we would all be tyrants because God only chose the one nation there to bring forth salvation. And it wasn't England or the USA. We were way down the line, guys. Way down the line. We were with the...

Gentile hordes as well. And the little D gods, you know. So anyway, I didn't want to get too deep. Elohims, little Elohims. Jace, I did, but I want to tell Al, I did tell Jace this because he was like, I mean, did you do anything that you were supposed to do there? And I do think that Jace thought that I was only going to secure a spot for him to treasure hunt. Yeah.

Once he told you, that's exactly what he thought. But it was an add-on to my current trip that we went, because we went to the ARC conference. See, I was serious. I wasn't kidding. I thought it was a mission. I realize that when we talk. But let me tell you what I did secure. Okay. So I didn't secure, like, I haven't closed the deal yet, but I did establish a relationship with an individual whose uncle has a castle in England. Okay.

So hold on. Let's back up. Let's break this down exegetically. There's your word. Y'all look it up for the people who listen to me. He secured a relationship. Well, he said, I didn't close the deal. There's no deal. Can we hunt here or can we not? Right. So there's no money going to change hands. Although I'm open to that as long as it's reasonable. Right.

So I secured a relationship with a guy who has a cousin? No, his uncle. His uncle. Yeah. His uncle. Yeah, it got wonky. This sounds like... Was the uncle once removed or twice removed? I think it... I didn't get that deep into the negotiations. Family tree. But I would like to hunt the yard of a castle.

There's got to be stuff there. So we have one lead. That's all you got? But that's a strong lead. That's a strong lead. Because he did secure the relationship. A security relationship with a gentleman whose uncle owns a castle in England. Okay. So I feel like we got... That's something. Yeah.

But it wasn't a strikeout. It wasn't a strikeout. It wasn't a home run either. I'd say it was – I mean – It was a walk or maybe a ball. But the conference I was at was – No, I think we're still at the plate. Oh, we're still at the plate. Yeah, we're still at the plate. We're first base. We're first base. The conference I was at, though, you got to keep in mind, it was not like –

It wasn't like the – it was people from all over the world. So it was a mixed crowd. I didn't know who was who. Was this the one that Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murray, did they speak at? Yes. Yeah, yeah. My friends Ann and Phelan were there. Oh, were they really? Yeah, they were there. I tried to tell them to find you because I knew you were probably there at the same one, but I couldn't get through to them. Okay, we took care of that. Well, while you were in England getting the lead –

I went to, I flew into Raleigh, North Carolina, which I know my wife told me, she's like, y'all quit talking about your trips on the podcast because that's the worst part of it. But I have to say this because I had something happen. But she can't even listen to you on the podcast. So I don't know that.

To be fair, that Mrs. Assessment may not. She's pretty smart. I don't know. Well, I took it to heart, but I'm violating that thought right there. Because, Zach, this is welcome back, Zach. Yeah, welcome back, Zach. Hey, look, that'd be a catchy heading. Welcome back. So in the moment, as I was flying over North Carolina, but I figured, because I got the God view.

You flew right over Zach's house. And I waved. Yeah. Because that went in. 29,000. I knew you weren't there, but I thought last time I drove by, I blew a horn. So this time you got a wave from a plane. Yeah.

So that's not the point of the story. The point of the story was... Which is, I will say, at least that's better than me. The last time I was at Zach's house, he was trapped outside of North Carolina, and I was actually looting his house for candles and matches. I came home with nothing left. Nothing left. Typical. So I drove about, or had someone drive me, about an hour. I think we went north, but I'm not 100% sure of that. Okay.

Because it was dark. So I went into the rural areas. I was two hours away from where you're at. Yeah, about two hours east of that. Because I said, did the hurricane get you on there? They were like, no, that's two hours from us. And look, it was a redneck party. And I can say that because I have redneck tendencies. You got more than two. Most of the crowd looked like Cy and Phil. Yeah.

Seriously. Okay, I got it. So that was that type of event. They had rented a high school auditorium. This was the men's thing, right? Wasn't it a men's? Well, they said it was a men's thing, but.

There were some women there. Did the women look like Seinfeld? No. Okay. But there wasn't a lot of women. I think it was predominantly a men's event. Okay. Most of the women were volunteers, and some of them just didn't get the memo. I did start with Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and then I went to Genesis 2. Yeah. And I was like, you know how you see this on TV? Yeah.

in the news. I think Fox does it, but it says, you know, breaking news, but they do it like every hour and it's the same story. Right. Well, that's no longer. Every new host opens with the same breaking news. So I've always said, why don't at some point you put broke news? Broken news. Broken. It's broken news. But they don't want to do it.

You guys know what happens on April 15th? The tax man shows up. The tax man shows up. So do you have an unfiled tax return or if you can't pay the IRS?

I'm going to tell you something, they're very aggressive and the longer you wait, the worse it gets. Wage garnersments, bank levies, even property seizures are on the table and you need to get ahead of this now. Al, have you ever had any issues with the IRS? You know, I have, Zach. When I spent many years in ministry, didn't make a lot of money and so never really thought much about the IRS. But then when the show came along, my job changed, I started making a little money and guess what? All of a sudden the IRS came calling and

And it was a tough situation. I wish, Zach, I had known about the guys at Tax Network USA back when the IRS came calling. But now is the time for you to resolve your IRS troubles. Going against the IRS alone, it's a mistake. Take my advice. Call the experts.

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1-800-958-1000. That's 1-800-958-1000. Or you can visit TNUSA.com slash unashamed. That's TNUSA.com slash unashamed. I wanted to get to my second illustration, which I got to one of my emails. It's the first time in the history of my speaking that

that I read an email that I got. No, no. It was from Willie's father-in-law. But I had got it that day. And I will read. Oh, I got this email. This is from Johnny? Yeah, I got this email. Yeah, it's from Johnny. You got it. Let me find it. Where is that email? I don't have it now. Hang on. I got it.

Just read the caption. Read the caption. All right, I got the caption. You ready? Yeah. Is this breaking news? Yeah, it was breaking news then. Breaking news. All right. Yankees drop 49-year no facial hair policy on one condition. No Duck Dynasty beards. Unbelievable. Breaking news. And then I see you come back from England, and the first thing I notice is,

I believe you're wearing a New York Yankees hat. The Yankees hat. I am. Well. So I get it that you support that statement. No, I don't support that statement. Just because you weren't on Duck Dynasty. Is there another hat in the studio? He was on Duck Dynasty. I got to have another hat to wear. So here's what I will disavow the Yankees. I'm not a Yankees fan. I grabbed a hat. That's why I'm a Dodger fan, boy. But you grabbed a hat the same weekend that that story broke.

Wait, did they... But he was in England. This is not a joke. This is for real. Oh, I'm reading the headlines out right here. I do not make jokes on purpose. We've already established that. What is a Duck Dynasty beer? Okay, so let me break this down. And by the way, the Duck Dynasty is in quotations. So like...

Which basically they're saying that's a thing. Everybody knows what this means. Well, Duck Dynasty has turned into a verb, a noun, an adjective. Oh, let me read a quote in here, Jay, before you make your statement. The only information we were offered...

from Yankees General Manager Brian Cashman was that we're not trying to look like Duck Dynasty. Garrett Cole said, referring to the reality show, no diss against Duck Dynasty. You're grinding in the woods all the time. You don't really have any other option. See, look, Al, you know what's funny? Is I never read the article. That's hilarious. I read the caption. I didn't read it either. Well, and you just now read it. I just read it. This is live coverage.

Well, because I felt like we needed to respond to it, so I did at my first event. I read it, and I said, so let me get this right. Basically what they're saying, if you put this into a criminal category, because they had a clarification.

for the statement. So they've never allowed facial hair in the history. I knew that. I did know that. The reason I knew that, Jason, is because ballplayers who were known for their mustache and their beard, like on some other team, would go to the Yankees, and then all of a sudden you would see them with no facial hair, and it made them look weird to me because it's like a guy you've seen. It'd be like Johnny Damon, you know? He used to play for the Red Sox. When he went to the Yankees, it was like, who is this guy? It wasn't him. Then he was born again. Exactly.

and went to the Red Sox and let himself go. He did. Duck Dynasty style. So here's what I did from a legal perspective. See, look, we're going to talk about being born again. We are. We got to talk about the little place where we talk about the temple. All right, good adjustment. Because I feel like... Yeah, I can't support that anymore. I feel like there's 17 people out there

who are saying, I think you should make a statement about this because they're the ones that brought it up. Now, they did have the clarification. Al read the context. That was Garrett Cole, who's their best pitcher, who said that. Read that. What did he say again? Here's what he said. He said, the only information we were offered, because they asked him about the new policy,

from the GM was that we're not trying to look like Duck Dynasty. That's what the GM said. Shouldn't they have said at that point not that there's anything wrong with that? And then he said, and then Garrett Cole, who probably just, he may even know who we are. He says, no diss against Duck Dynasty. You're grinding in the woods all the time. You don't really have any other option. Well, I

I appreciate that. That is hilarious. I think that was a positive statement. It was a diss from the management that the player took up for us. He spun it. He spun it for us. He took up for us. He's like, not that there's anything wrong with it. They're grinding in the woods. Because Garrett Cole hadn't always been with the Yankees. He's only been with them a few years. So you realize this probably –

Somebody will have to make a statement about this. So here's what I said. Can I say what I said? Say it. I used it into a legal analogy. I said, so basically they were saying, we're no longer allowing the murder of the beard of our players. Now they can commit premeditated assault, a.k.a. grooming to the beard. Now,

Matty's looking at me really weirdly, so let me explain that. Look, if you wake up every morning and you're just, remember how Phil used to describe it, you're scraping the hair off your face. Yeah, and I always made it sound so medieval. Yeah, he made it. And it's really not as bad as I thought. Why would you do that? And so then I said, look, I got some breaking news, which was. This was your lead in for yours. Yeah. I said, I'm not growing a beard.

It's doing that on its own. Which is a great line. Is it not? It's a great line. Now, see, when I look at Zach, I see premeditation. I see assault because he's grooming it. He's trimming it.

Yeah. Yeah. Now you just started yours back, so you're not in the grooming stage. But I will say I was tempted because this weekend at the event I was at, they had a 70s night. And so I was wearing this ridiculous 70s costume because when I go to a marriage retreat with Lisa, I'm like, I'll wear matching shirts, whatever. As long as when we leave this place, that's over. We're back to normal life. But I'll do it there for her. And so I thought about, Jase, to really make myself look...

Like in the moment, I thought about cutting and having the big lamb chops that they had back in the 70s. See, I'm against that. I almost did it, but I just couldn't. You know why I couldn't? Because of my family, because of Duck, Dada, Steve, and Deer. If you're confused about all this, just your yard is the best place.

Because Phil was consistent. He's like, we don't shave our beards. We don't trim our beards. We don't manicure our beards. We don't mow our yards. We don't trim. We don't use the, what do they call it? The weed eater. The weed eater. The edgers. No, you're either all in or you're all out. And the only time you cut is just due to, you know, if you get hung up in a tree or

If you, sometimes you have debris that get in there, if you're hanging, you can trim because nobody's noticed. As long as nobody notices the trim, you're fine. What always got me was, is that dad would go into freak out mode. Like if he found a hair in the pot of beans or something, he'd be like,

And he's like, hair in the beans, hair in the beans, hair in the beans, looking around like everybody else. I was like, do we want to take three guesses on where that hair came from? And the first two don't count. It came right out of that giant Spanish moss that's hanging off of your face. Which is great camouflage because the beard, God's design, gave men this...

that looks like moss and grass. It's great for fulfilling Genesis 9. It does hide your face, I agree 100%. Well, Genesis 9 is the birthplace of honey. Unless it gets too white. No, well, then it looks like real moss, though. It's still passing. Yeah, if it's long and flowing, I guess it would. That'd be not a Kenny Rogers. Like a Kenny Rogers, white would be a little shocking. ♪

Well, in our world, there's so many arguments about pro-choice and pro-life. But I think the key thing that's missed is, one, yes, we agree as believers in God that babies are born in the image of God. But they're also born as humans, right?

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And there was a couple things that happened that I'll conclude this trip in honor of Missy. One is the VIP line, which was after the speech, which is people pay to whatever their, you know, the money that they had spent or whatever, so they used that, which was very long, long line. One guy came up there, and most of it was, how's your dad? You know, heard y'all have a new show coming out.

Or something about the podcast. There was a few Jesus questions. But one guy stepped up there and he said, well, I got to tell you something. He said, I really love the podcast. And he's like, I know it's dangerous to say this out loud, but I'm going to tell you.

Zach is the best. Oh, wow. I have never heard that in the history of VIP lines. He said he just has a way with words. So I thought, Zach, in honor of you being back. Did you feel like the Holy Spirit was speaking to you in that moment? Did you receive that from God?

I said, Lord, or how did you receive that? I said, so, so let me get this right. Here was my immediate response. I said, you've been waiting in this line one hour to tell me that. Whoever that guy is. So Zach, just look. Well, sometimes when the pressure's getting to you or you feel like you don't know, you just think.

There's a guy out there somewhere who's like, I get you, man. Cheers for that. He gets me. You officially have a buddy, a partner. I got a buddy out there. I love that. So I got to tell you a story from my trip that is really amazing. Even though Missy said we shouldn't talk about the trips. I know, we're going to do it. All three of us have talked about our trips. We're sorry, Missy, but these are just too good. There was a young couple. We were at a marriage thing, and there was a couple, and

and they were telling their story during our weekend, which a couple of couples usually do every year. And what I didn't realize, I have the list of names. We pray over everybody that's going to be there. I didn't realize I had met this couple last year. And last year at the same retreat, these guys are from Arkansas, and the wife came in and said, my husband wants to talk to you.

And I said, well, sure. You know, and so I'm looking around because we're at a marriage. Usually everybody's together as a couple. He wasn't there. It was just her. And she said, you know, he's really we just watched the movie. So, Zach, I thought you'd appreciate this. We just watched The Blind. And it has impacted him so deeply that that's the reason we're here. Like, we're ready to make a life change. He's ready. We're ready. And I'm looking around. I was like, well, is he here? Yeah.

He wasn't in the room. She said, yeah, he's outside. He's embarrassed to come talk to you. I said, no, no, no, no. That's why we're here. So he came in. He told me his story. It was hard for him to tell it, but he told it. Did he have a beard? He did have a beard. Big old Arkansas boy. He would not have been able to play for the Yankees. No, he couldn't play for the Yankees. And so we had a great conversation. They had an amazing retreat. I hugged their neck at the end. So that was the end of it, except this year –

through forces I didn't know because I don't do the planning of this anymore. I just show up and help. They were there and they were actually up speaking and telling what's happened this last year. And it was so touching and moving. And he talked about the movies that, and how that he had had a problem with alcohol, a lot like dad. It just not been there for his family, a lot like dad. And like, it had just moved him to a point. He said when he watched it, when he left the theater, he said, I couldn't even speak.

I was so overcome by realizing it was like looking in a mirror at my own life. And so he got home and that started this process. And now a year later, he and his wife are doing great. And, you know, just what, you know, he's ready to do his own podcast. And I mean, he was just so fired up for Jesus. Uh,

this year and we had a great conversation. But I just, I wanted to mention on the podcast because we talk a lot about, obviously we miss dad being here as a regular part of our discussion, but he's never far, he and mom especially, from what we're talking about because they trained us, they taught us, their impact still goes on. And that's what I told him. I was like, well, look, because he was like, I miss Mr. Phil and the fast, whatever, we all do.

I said, but the influence and the impact. And he said, you said it. He said, what did you call us? Some kind of letter. I said, you're a living letter of dad's life. And I said, and now the thing is, you got to talk to people about Jesus. And he said, well, that's what I want to do. And he told me for the first time, he woke up this weekend at the retreat and said, I am ready to tell people that.

Jesus. So I loved it. It was a great, it was, it, it lifted me all the way back here from Arkansas. And God wrote the letter, obviously. Exactly. So, well, we were in John too. We did the water and the wine. I didn't know if you wanted to have any comments on it. I will note this, uh, the guy who gave me the ride to the event, who put the event on him and his wife, his wife, uh,

a little bookshop. It's called The Good Book or The Good Books. I think it was The Good Book, singular. And so when we passed it, she's like, there's my little shop. Well, it was just in the middle of nowhere, a rural area, and it's a little tiny building. And the building had a divider, and there's two businesses, The Good Book. Well, you know what the name of the other building was? The Wine Thief. Yeah.

And I thought, wow, what about your neighbors there? She was like, well, it's a long story, but yep, they're the wine thief, which I didn't know what that term meant. I looked it up, which it's actually a little tool that when you dip into a barrel of wine to taste it,

They call that tool the wine thief. So you don't have to break the seal or whatever on the whole thing. So I thought that was, I was like, okay, there was a story behind it. But when I saw it, I was like, what does that mean? You were thinking John 2, right? Well, we had just studied John 2. I was thinking 1 Corinthians when it said some of you come to take the Lord's Supper and you're getting drunk. Oh, yeah. They were wine thieves. They're getting drunk during the Lord's Supper. Yeah.

And then you're thinking, how would you open a shop? Well, then I just thought, well, that's the spiritual. Well, because they said, well, we're going to.

We want to sell wine. Yeah. And so we're going to open this up right next to the good book. So let's just call it the wine thief. I mean, that's what my thought was, but I was wrong. But still, I actually said, because she was kind of chuckling about it, I was like, well, Jesus did turn the water into wine. That's funny because that reminds me, I spoke in Oklahoma one time. Oklahoma City had a little strip mall, and these people had converted the middle two or three little shops into,

into a place for their church to meet. And so as I'm driving up and get out to go inside the little place, on one end is a liquor store on the anchor of one corner of the strip mall, and the other is a CBD pot dispensary on the other end of it.

So when I got up, I said, well, you guys have chosen an interesting place to meet here. I've noticed there's a liquor store on one end and a pot dispensary on the other. I said, you know what I call that? And they're all looking like, what's he going to say? And I said, prime real estate. Yeah. Because everybody coming there looks like they need it. So, Zach, we did the water to wine thing.

on a couple of podcasts when you were gone with Cy and Lisa. But as Jay said, did you have any commentary to add to that before we get to the clearing of the temple? That's kind of where we're left off.

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A little bit. A little. Because we referenced that, Zach, unfortunately, in our upbringing, every time this text was used, that was what the lesson tended to go to, where they missed the whole point of the power. Oh, the whole point is missed once you start looking at everything legalistically or whatever.

ritualistically. Yeah. It was two parts this and three parts that. Remember all that, Zach? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they had a whole, I don't know how they got there, but they got there somehow. You know what's funny, though, is I told you I went to Redneck USA, but on the way back, the person I was sitting beside, I happened to be in first class, which is nice. Mm-hmm.

and was a CEO of some big medical company, a woman. And we just kind of started the conversation. So I looked for the opportune time to drop in what I'm in on because I thought, you know, here's a woman that's got a lot of power and influence. And it was perfect because a guy had come by and he was like,

I want to see if I can get you to come do an event for us. You know, he just was in the hallway of the airplane. Well, she's looking at me like, I mean, I knew what she was thinking. What is a guy looking like this, who this guy was spiffy looking and civilized. Yeah.

Asking you He looked normal You looked And she's thinking The reason I'm I'm writing in first class Is to get away from people That look like you I mean I know She didn't say that But I get it So she's now thinking People know this guy Yeah What's the story So Cause I She didn't say anything Yeah So I took my Bible But you knew what she was thinking I knew what she was thinking Yeah So I took my Bible Out of my bag So I thought I'd do a little Study and research

And I said, sorry about that. You know, these people recognize me. And she said, well, how do they recognize you? And I said, well, that's a long story. And I said, we were, you know, I went through the TV show, the Duck Dynasty. I should have brought up the Yankees just declared that their players couldn't look like us. Exactly.

And I said, we have a podcast. And she said, well, what's the podcast about? Well, that was the money question there. Oh, boy, that's it. Because it's like you did the show years ago, and now what? Y'all still talking about it? And I basically framed it by saying, well, we study the Bible. At the heart of it, it's a Bible study. I said, you know, we tell stories. I said, but we're real and authentic, talk about our lives and what's going on. I said, but it's done without an agenda or kind of a –

you know, religion-based program. I was like, we're believers. We believe God is real. And so I kind of went through the gospel and the Bible. And she said,

Well, that's my whole problem is the ritualistic aspect. And she kind of told her story. And I thought, isn't that something? Because I think that's why you're actually listening to this. Because we don't, you know, we're just trying to look. Hey, God wrote a book. Wow. He came to earth. Jesus. Wow. Let's figure this out. Yeah. And figure out the context of when this was written and how this kind of applies to us in modern day life.

And so I think that was a good hook to it. And I think passages and signs like this are much more appealing to those people who have had bad religious experiences because you have these people arguing who look at everything like a ritual or illegal. In fact, one of the people in line that we had a conversation about was she was telling me, it was a woman, she said,

She said, you know, I got a question. I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. She's like, there's a preacher two churches down that said I needed to be baptized again. And I was like, well, how did this conversation come about? And she said, he just brought it up. Said, I know you go to this church over there. Oh, boy. So tell me about your baptism. I was like, that's how the conversation started? Yeah.

And he said, well, if you're not baptized in Jesus' name, you're out. You need to do that again. And so she was like...

what do you think about that? And I was like, I'm not sure we're going to have enough time to discuss that right now. But I just kind of made the same statement about there's a lot of people that are looking at the Bible like a formula on words and what you say. And I think I made a comment. I was like, well, Jesus's name actually in

in the Greek was not Jesus. So technically, even if you were baptized in the name of Jesus, they got the English translation of that. I mean, if we go down the legalistic road, would that have counted? What they're getting at there is they're saying that, um,

Jesus, there are basically people who teach that are teaching that God is not triune. He's not a Trinity. He is one person that manifests himself in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He has different forms, but it's only one person. It's actually, it's heretical. So what they're actually proposing is not, it's just not biblical because God's clearly three distinct persons in one being. Right.

So that's really what that is. It's an anti-Trinitarian view of the Godhead, and I think it has serious implications. Well, it obviously did in this situation because –

What did that have to do with any... I mean, all that did was create confusion in the mind of this person. Well, I'm all about the name of Jesus. Yeah, me too. And the book of Acts is filled with it. So I was like, well, maybe they should say, just as a sign of good grace to your neighbor church, just say, I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus. When she laughed and I was like...

Because my point is, this is about a person. Yeah. And you've made something about a ritualistic step procedure in how you say things. Right. Now, granted, Zach knew the history behind it. I did not. But...

I think the point is the same. I mean, you fall in love with the Lord and he knows your heart and you want to surrender to him. And now somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, make sure you get all the wording right before this happens.

happened. When I told y'all the story before, the first time I ever baptized somebody, I was so excited. I was right out of the world, been a prodigal son, come back, finally had the wherewithal to tell somebody what Jesus had done in my life, baptized him down there on the river next to dad's house, and

And as I'm coming out, you know, I'm so excited in the moment, you know, because this is good stuff. And this dear brother who I love to death, who's crossed over now, he came up, put his arm around me and said, you did so good. And I was like, thank you. I mean, he's an older brother. And he said, now, but you didn't say for the remission of sins. That's what I'm talking about. And I was like, and I was crushed in that moment because I thought, oh, no, I've messed up. You did something wrong. Yeah, and I was like, but I realized in that moment and through all my years now of helping people that –

It's not about the baptizer. It's not about the words. It's not about any of that stuff. But God is doing the saving. Somehow or another, when you take it into that form, which I've said this before, which I don't know why we're talking about baptism. Because you brought it up. Well, but, you know, the form, it's like, what causes all the arguments about baptism? It comes from these questions of,

that people come up with that do not make sense, which is what I'm relating to the water and the wine. Here's a question that doesn't make sense about the water and the wine. Well, was that alcohol, was it fermented? That's not the picture. That has nothing to do

with what this is talking about. Because the leap that people made was, well, you're telling me that my, whoever, my uncle who struggled with alcohol his whole life, I mean, Jesus would turn water into actual alcohol. I mean, that's where we make the leap is someone's weakness in an area. And you're like, well, he couldn't have never done that. It had to not be alcoholic. It had to be something else. That's like the baptism thing. Because somebody came up with a question. Well, do we have to do this?

Well, it's a terrible question. You hear the story of Jesus. You read all the verses. Even we're going to get to John 3. He's talking about being born of water and the Spirit. But most of the ones in the book of Acts, and you see all these things. And for somebody to have, that's their question, right?

Somehow you've gotten off of God being real, present, and able to work and to save. It's like now, oh, I got to figure this out like the pieces of a puzzle. Ask 10 hypothetical questions. From 10 different groups because then you get all the different teachings. You're so far removed. And I think to go back to the lady that was sitting beside me, the CEO, I

You know, they just look up and say enough. I mean, because she made a comment like that. She's like, this organized religion is very distasteful to me, you know. And I can't blame her. She's just being honest. Yeah. I mean, that is the pulse that you get. And so when you try to bring people together in the name of Jesus –

And in the person of Jesus, it becomes very difficult. Yeah, it's tough. Well, we left organized religion when I was in the sixth grade. I remember, fifth grade, actually. And my dad, you guys remember this, he was like, I'll never step foot in a church building again. So most of my teenage years was...

in revolt against the institutional church. I since come back, I still think the institutional church matters, and I think that it can be redeemed. Per community and a lot of different reasons. Yeah, I agree. And you have to learn how to live with people. Also, you know, loving one another. When Jesus said, all men will know you by your love for one another. Well, that takes...

patience, forgiveness, all these qualities that he offers to us is then passed on. I mean, just look at your marriage, which I think this has some representation. I tend to think these signs are more of a fulfillment based on what had been written.

The Great Commission is extremely clear to go make disciples in the nations. And that's really why I love our partner, the Damar Clubs. These guys are amazing. Al, you were led to Christ a lot by my mother who took you to camps when you were a young child, correct? Yeah, exactly. I mean, from a very early age.

your mom made sure that the word of God was instilled into me and introduced me to people to help that as well. So I can't speak highly enough about groups that are trying to make sure the word of God gets into young minds and young hearts.

which is why I love our partnership with the Tomorrow Clubs. I want to tell you about what's going on in Delphi, Africa. This is a community that's really struggling under the weight of extreme violence, poverty. There's a lot of gang warfare there, prostitution. A lot of the young people at an early age, a lot of the young boys are going into gangs. A lot of the young girls are going into prostitution. It is a very dark area, but the gospel is breaking through with our partnership with the Tomorrow Clubs.

They've connected with a young man there named Muhammad, who was a former gang member, went to prison, came to know Christ, and he's working with them directly in one of the churches there. Muhammad's church and home have become really a safe haven in the community where safety is rare. So parents will call Muhammad quite often and say, "Hey, can you help us track down our children?"

And we want to come alongside him and support the work that he's already doing, but also expand it in the area and other areas as well. Tomorrow Clubs are providing the gospel in the most hard to reach places, the gospel of transformation. And we believe that we need to partner with these guys and be a part of the solution. So if you want to be a part of this with us, then go visit tomorrowclubs.org.

And remember, all gifts are tax deductible.

Now we have, there's a new transforming power by God occurring with the arrival of Jesus. And so I think him taking these ceremonial jars of water, transforming them to wine is

is looking back to their system, which I think it continues in the next paragraph about the temple. But then look, but then it goes forward. I mean, think Ephesians 5. And then when it says, don't get drunk on much wine. Actually, Ephesians 5 says that. Don't get drunk on much wine. But what? Be filled with the Spirit. Sing and make music in your heart. So there's your verse for you, legalists. But then it goes on to talk about marriage. Marriage.

And then it gives all these roles. And then it says the mystery, though, is that I'm talking about you and Christ. Well, and I want to say this, is that we talked about this in one of the last podcasts. This wasn't accidental. It almost appears that way because Jesus is like, what are you asking me for? My time has not yet come. But John included it specifically. He only mentioned seven for a reason because later in our text,

at the clearing of the temple, he says Jesus did many other miraculous signs and people put their faith in him, but he doesn't mention any of those specifically. So there was something unique about this situation. And we mentioned this before. It's even the underlying thing that most people don't think about. This was a shame situation. They were out of wine at a public event, a wedding, which in their culture would have been a huge faux pas.

I mean, this would have been a no can do. You don't run out of wine at the week long feast. And yet here they were. And then Jesus takes that away by not only making wine, but making really premium wine. And that gets mentioned. And so I've always thought maybe that's one of the reasons John puts it in here is Jesus is concerned about taking away everything, including our shame.

In any relationship. So there's a reason John included it specifically because he's going to go on to these next ones, but he only mentions seven specifically. It gives the background of each one of them. I would add probably one more thing too. Think about if you think about like new Exodus language, which I love to see that in the New Testament as being Jesus' mission as almost like an arrival of a new Exodus in all the Gospels, but like if he's like a new Moses, which

which I think we would argue that he is. Some scholars would say that, well, what was Moses' first miracle? Turning the water into blood. This is kind of like a mirror of turning the water into wine. Then there's also the imagery of that Jesus is bringing plenty. He's bringing excess. He's kind of bringing the party. And I think what's happened in the way I grew up, at least in fundamentalist Christianity, was that everything was like a negation of something. Don't do, don't do. Everything was about the stuff you can't do.

And but Jesus came for the life of the world, as we're going to see when we get to John six, he gave his flesh for the life of the world. So I think this this wedding picture of a wedding. I mean, that comes up quite a bit in Scripture, too, that we are the bride of Christ. And if you think about the kingdom of God, it's almost like we're in this preparation for this incredible party and this incredible feast and this incredible wedding ceremony.

when there's that final consummation of Christ's second coming. I think all that imagery is in this moment. And so, you know, there's a whole lot in the Old Testament about wine bringing joy. Now, yes, can wine be abused and can you get drunk on wine and just get sloshed and get out of your mind, which leads to debauchery, is what Paul says in Ephesians 4. But there is a healthy and biblical use of the enjoyment of wine in

seen in this text here. I believe that it can be enjoyed. I do believe that it is a gift from God, and I do believe in this passage, you're seeing something really beautiful about the God that we serve and the coming of His kingdom. Yeah, and there was even, Zach, in the Old Testament, you're right, they would have these offerings for

from everything that they produced. And wine was one of them, and grapes and grains and all these things. And they would pour out the first percentage of their wine. And that was probably part of the distillery process as well. When they did it, they would do it to the Lord. Yeah.

It was like, we're giving you the first of our first fruits. And so that concept is definitely in Jesus' mind. And we sort of twisted that through time because of people's abuse of certain things. And Paul certainly deals with that in some of the letters. But it should never take away from the idea that God made all this. This is all his. Yeah.

The best way to handle something like this, in my opinion, is always look for what is the redemptive version of whatever the thing is. And so like when, yes, you see alcohol is obviously used by a lot of people to get drunk and live in debaucherous ways. Is there a redemptive version?

Is there anything redemptive about alcohol? I think there is. I think that there is certainly a fine wine. I'll tell you this. I mean, think about something that takes a craft to create. Like no one's going to sit there and just get sloshed on something that took years and years and years to develop and to curate. And I think there is a story here. Some of my friends would. Yeah, some of your people might. You've got a lot of money. But like when he says here that everyone serves the good wine first,

And this is in verse 10. And when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now. Well, what's the point he's saying there is that at these wedding feasts, typically in the in the cultural moment of this time, you would do is you would serve the good wine first.

And then when everybody got a little tipsy, then you start serving the trash wine when people don't notice the difference. But what they're noticing about Jesus here is that he actually is saving the best for last. And there's a picture there, one of Jesus.

How Jesus saw alcohol, but more importantly, is in the intention of the heart of God. The firstfruits are just that. Their firstfruits, what we're experiencing now in the kingdom, it's a foretaste of glory divine. But Christ always brings the best last. And it goes to this excessive fruit.

love that God has for us. It goes to when God doesn't just answer a prayer a little bit, He doesn't just fulfill a promise. Think about the promise that He made to Abraham. Did He just barely fulfill that? Or was that promise far beyond what Abraham could have ever imagined? We're sitting here 2,000 years after Christ came and

And I don't know how many years after God gave that promise to Abraham that I'm going to make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. I can almost promise you that Abraham would have never in a million years imagined that thousands of years later, he would have spiritual grandchildren on a podcast in a place called the United States of America talking about

this promise. He would have never imagined that. But that's what God does. He always over delivers. Yeah, that's a great point. I think also this was the second question that Jesus asked from John's perspective when it said, you know, the first one was, remember, we made a big deal. What do you want? Yeah. And

Which is a good question if you just take it by yourself and ask yourself. Well, he asked his mom this time. We didn't bring this up before. But he said, why do you involve me? If you just ask that question about anything in life, why are you involving Jesus? It kind of puts, there's a perspective change there. Because really, his mom knew everything.

He's different. She had to have known that. And when she... Her response was, do whatever he tells you. Which was a directional answer. Yeah. I think it's kind of a... In my mind, it gave... And this is in my personal time when I read stuff like this. Because I realized this was written to a group of people, but it's for me. Yeah. And it's kind of like when I'm just...

looking at what I want to do and then have, you know, check with my relationship with Jesus to make sure this is okay. Instead of my primary is to follow Jesus and to be him, you know, on this earth through his spirit. And that involves everything I do. It makes God more present is what I'm getting at by that question. Because, you know, I said that some of you are doing less than just

on the questions of Jesus. I mean, if you want to relate it to your own life, those are really deeper questions than they seem. Yeah, that's good. Well, we're about out of time, but I did want to get your take on it, which is really good because it kind of catches us back up. Well, it's a good segue to the last verse. It says, He thus revealed His glory, which when you think back to the Old Testament,

When God's glory was revealed, especially through the tabernacle and the temple and this connection with Jesus becoming flesh and making his dwelling, tabernacling among us. And then in John's gospel, which is unique to the other three, he has this clearing out of the temple.

At the beginning. He also has him kind of going in and out of Jerusalem. Right, right, right. Which makes a little more sense to me. Yeah. I think it's too different. I think the clearing of the temple has happened more than once. I think that what's happening in John 2 is not the same event that happens in Mark 13. And we talked about that. Well, it may be, or you may be looking at it too much systematically. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It could be. I mean, the point is the same. Yeah. Because when we get to the meat of this, Jesus, I think, going back to his conversation with Nathaniel, this ladder, Jacob's ladder, this angels descending from heaven and heaven and earth being connected,

Well, that's temple language. And then it kind of makes you think of creation itself in the seven-day period. Because when you look at how the temple was built, it looked like a garden and all these fancy things. And it's kind of the seven stages of the temple. It all seems to be connected with this one fact.

that God wants to dwell with people and reveal his glory. And that is a theme of the entire Bible. Yeah, which is huge. All right, so we're out of time. We'll pick it up here. We want to wait for you to get back, Zach, to talk about this temple because we know you've got a lot to say about that. So we'll do that next time on Unashamed.

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