Ep 1074 | Jase Discovers Chicken-Smuggling Teens at Minecraft & Watches a Spiritual Battle Unfold
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We got quite the flip from the last time that we came to on the podcast because we were all together in one place. They're getting the band back together. We had Jill as our

ace in the hole uh for the for a few podcasts and now we're all in our separate places yeah there was a palatable energy in the room we got on this morning and and maddie said why is everybody so quiet i'm still coming down off of whatever that was i'm not i crashed man it was like a an explosion of of neurotransmitter activity i was like

Wire. And then I got home. Guys, I just crashed. This is what happens when you marry a feisty young woman. It makes you mutter to yourself. You married a feisty young woman as well. There's no doubt. That's what people say. We did not marry weak women. That is for sure. No, we did not.

But it makes us stronger. It does. I had all my kids come in town this weekend. They all came up. Layla and Max played a show here in Black Mountain. And so we had Max, Layla, of course, the three that still live with me, Layla's husband, Dawson, and the band came in with them. So our house was just overflowing with people, which is good because I got a little look into pop culture that I didn't know existed this weekend.

You guys know what chicken jockey is? You ever heard of that? Chicken jockey. Chicken jockey. I've never heard those two words put together. It would have to be really small because if you were going to be a jockey on a chicken, you would have to be very tiny. What is the origin of the word? Are there any...

I'm not an expert in what I'm going to tell you. I got kind of a 30,000-foot overview of the chicken jockey. I'm probably even saying it wrong, but it's a pop culture reference. Let me ask you another question. Have you ever heard of something called Minecraft? It's like a video game. Minecraft. Have you ever heard of that? My grandkids have played it because there's a movie called

that has come out that apparently has done quite well. I know that. And my grandkids went and saw it and loved it. Is that the cube with the different colors? I think that's Rubik's Cube. Oh, that's not a Minecraft cube.

I think it is like blocks or cubes. I really don't. I'm fundamentally against video games. What's funny is there's a big chunk of our audience right now is laughing so hard at our ignorance. Because they know what we're talking about. Because they know exactly what we're talking about. So this is what's happening. I mean, my kids are showing me this. And I was like, this is absolutely insane. So these kids, mostly like teenage boys, they get all their friends and they go watch the movie Minecraft.

And it's got Jack Black in it. It's got some other things. Oh, yeah, the guy, the Aquaman. Yeah, Aquaman's in it. And so there's a scene in the movie. Momoa, yeah. Jason Momoa. Is that his name, Jason Momoa? Yeah. That's what Matty said. So here's what they're doing. He kind of looks like a beefed up Jep to me. He does kind of look like old Jep. Yeah, he does.

So they show up at the movie and all the kids show up and there's a certain scene. And this is happening all across the country, apparently, in all the movie theaters it's happening. They sneak a live chicken into the movie theater somehow. They bring in a live chicken. And then there's a moment in the movie where I think Jack Black's character says chicken jockey. And when he says that,

The kid, I mean, the whole, like, theater, they throw their drinks, their popcorn. I mean, it's just like a, it's a celebration. I mean, it's like, literally, they're throwing a big 32-ounce, like, Diet Coke set up in the air and popcorn. And somebody will stand up with a, they're holding a live chicken. And then they basically get kicked out of the theater. And I don't, I don't either. That's the thing.

I feel like we need to back up. I'm just saying, I think there's some social commentary. Did they turn the chicken loose? I think they turned the chicken loose, but I'm just watching it and I'm thinking, where is the state of young men in this country? Just looking at this, I'm thinking, this has got to be... I don't even know what it is.

I feel like the culture is maybe leaving me behind. I think you skipped over the sneaking a chicken in a movie theater. How is that possible? I mean, at our movie place, they have, you go through one little section. I mean, it's like going through airport security. Oh, they're getting the chicken in there, though. I'm telling you. I don't know. You just Google chicken jockey.

No, I don't Google anything except Bible verses. So there, or the weather or some scores. No, I don't do that. So, so anyway, didn't there used to be a movie Zach that years ago, um,

that was interactive with fans and it was real popular for like 30 years. Oh, that was the, um, yeah, the, the way they did this sort of thing. Uh, Rocky, uh, Rocky Horror Picture Show. Yeah. Which they played for years. I mean, years and years after it would, they would have shows at midnight and everybody would show up in character. It would be like a cult type movie, but I guess it, I guess it wasn't like destroying things. No, I think the theaters are like, you're vandalizing our theaters. Yeah. We're going to, yeah, we're going to,

As if there's not enough sticky things on the floor when I go into the movie that I need somebody dumping all their drinks out on their popcorn. These are two illustrations of why the world needs Jesus. That's what I said. Which that was my take on watching the Masters yesterday. Yeah.

If that were your days, he would say, that's why I don't go to theaters. That's why I don't see movies. The Masters was also, I don't know what happened there, but that's all over Twitter, all over. So that's another viral moment that I missed out on that one. So you're calling these viral moments, which I looked up virus while you were talking. And it's nothing good.

It came from an infectious... It's all... It's a corruptor that is contagious and infectious. At the end of a viral moment, Jace, you have a virus. That's the problem. You got the virus. That means you're mortal and probably will die sooner than you thought. So...

What happened was you got a guy who had, if you're not a golfer, you're like, whoa. I mean, it's hard for me to describe what I want. I mean, I hate, I kept wanting to get up and leave because I thought this is pathetic. Because at the end of the day, it's grown men with metal clubs and

Trying to hit a round object in a hole in the ground in lesser swings than their competitors. You know, that's definitely not a big venture if you think about what the actual game is. But they have so much pageantry and tradition of this place in Georgia, and they make it so interesting.

and you have the meals and it's a club and it's an inclusive thing.

And you've arrived, you know, in competition if you win this. Well, here's this Roy McIlroy who's from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland. He won all the other legs of what they call the Grand Slam, which is you have – they used to call it the British Open. Now I think it's just called the Open. It's done somewhere in Europe. Then you have the U.S. Open, and then you have the PGA. Which, by the way, Jase, the three majors you mentioned –

or played at different famous courses around America, Europe, and the other one in America too. And the Masters is the only major that's played on the same course every year, to your point about this being sort of a magical place. And you get a green jacket, which you could go buy, but you have to win it because you're in this. So this guy, Roy, burst on the scene.

over a decade ago, wins the other three. And I think he's won a couple of them a couple times. But he didn't have this – he didn't have the Masters. And he's obviously very good at golf. And so I watched the Masters this week. He hit the ball further overall, straight – he hit the ball further, higher,

could shape the shots because now they got this technology that shows, you know, he'll hit it right, then he'll hit it left. You know, most of them just have one shot and they just go with it. And so, but he kept having these like brain cramps and they kept just doing things that you could tell were totally mental. So he had two double bogeys on the first day, which, you know, because he looked like he was headed off to win it, but then he just, and it's like he chipped the ball in the water. It was like something, a,

a novice golfer would do. Something I would do. Yeah, what are you doing? Well, he comes back, takes in the third round, and is winning by, what, four going into the final? I think he was up three. Up three. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you know, a series of events, it's the Masters, you know, things happen, they're jockeying. But then he just looks like he can't be beat. He gets to, like, 14 under. Yeah.

All his playing partners. Everybody else is falling back. They're hitting it in the water. Okay, it's over. He's laying up on holes where he could obviously hit. So he gets to 13, and he has like a little simple shot, 80 yards. He's laid up, and he's aiming like 40 yards to the left just to be safe, and he basically shanks it in the water. Makes double, and all of a sudden you start seeing him mentally. This guy's like having a mental breakdown. Yeah.

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Go to homechef.com slash unashamed. That's homechef.com slash unashamed for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com slash unashamed. Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Then he pulls back and they're telling stories about when he was seven and nine saying, I don't know. Yeah, when he started playing golf at four and then they were so poor that his dad took him

to the driving range, but he only had one token for balls. And so he said, you hit every shot like you're playing in the Masters. I mean, they're telling this at nine years old. Created all this drama. So then all of a sudden, he hits the most incredible shot you've ever seen on 15.

He can make an eagle and go back up, you know, and they're all now saying he's overcome. It's the shot of a lifetime is what they say. It's the shot of his lifetime. Well, then he misses the five-foot putt for eagle. Yeah.

And it's like, what just happened here? Oh, but he's still up by one, you know. Then he bogeys, he goes back. Then he's losing. Then he's losing the tournament. Like with a couple holes left. Hits another incredible shot. Makes a little birdie putt. So you're like, okay, now he's won it.

Oh, he's got to make a par to win the last one. But they're like, oh, will he be nervous? And he gets up on 18 and hits the longest drive of the term. It's like 370 yards right down the middle. He has a little wedge that he's practiced a million times. 125 yards. Everybody's now, okay, we can go on with it.

shanks it in the bunker, just cold cocks it over. He was so far off. He's falling to his knees like, well, it's not over yet. Now all you got to do is get up and down. And as it turned out, it left a simple bunker shot that they said, he'll get this up and down nine out of ten times.

So he hits the bunker shot up to three or four feet. So now he has a putt to win the Masters. What does he do? He doesn't hit the hole. As soon as he hit the putt, it's just like you could tell he wasn't thinking he was going to make it. He just immediately dropped his hand. Well, now he's tied. We got to go to a playoff. I'm like, you have got to be kidding me. This guy is literally...

He just will not let himself win, even though he's the most talented golfer this week. And I was telling Lisa, Jase, I was like, he will not win. I thought the same thing. So then his buddy's got to play in a playoff. He just stripes it down the middle. I'm like, oh.

Rory, you're fixed to witness this guy just completely fall apart because he has blown it. He's incapable mentally of winning. Nope, he stripes it down the middle the same drive. Exactly. He had the same yardage. He hits it 370 yards down the middle. Well, the other guy almost holds it.

Yeah. I mean, hits two inches from the pin on his approach. Has about a, what, 10 or 12 footer? About a 12 footer. And so, kind of got unlucky that it wasn't close. Has the same shot. Well, this time he hits the perfect shot. It trickles down there to three feet again. Yeah. His playing partner misses the putt. It was a tough putt, but he hit a good putt. You know, he can't fault him. He almost made his approach. Yeah.

And then Rory, three foot, I thought, I think he's going to miss it. I didn't know. So he makes it, and look, the man loses it when it goes in. So I thought, oh, okay, all the pressure. He's burst into tears. He falls to his knees, just prostrate. His playing partner's like, hey, man, you won. He's trying to shake his hand. Oh, no, this guy has lost it. Well, look, Zach.

He never recovered. It turned into a soap opera of, I would say, a 10-minute meltdown. Have you ever seen anybody take that long to get from the green to where he's supposed to go to wrap it up? Look, I mean, it is drama. He's hugging people in the crowd. Complete just meltdown uncomfortably. It was uncomfortable. Just like he's hugging people. I thought...

What's happening here? What is happening and why am I still watching this? It's over. You won at some point. And finally, I guess after 10 or 15 minutes, he said, hey, let me go get my green jacket. So then it made everybody at least be able to breathe. He finally has realized you won.

You should have won three hours ago. But I don't know. What was the controversy? I mean, it seems to be like there's a lot of— There was no controversy other than it was like some kind of weird view into the human mind. And the only thing I could think of was this guy was so consumed with what other people thought. He needed this to become one of the greats.

He had to have this leg. There's only, what, five or six people out there that have won all of them? He's the sixth man that's done it. He's the sixth man in the history of the planet to win the four. And everybody else, the other five, three of the other five did it on their first try and the other two on their third. It took him 11 years. 11 years to win this. So obviously he had been holding on for a long time.

And someone on X said, this looks like the agony of relief. I thought that was a pretty good way. Because he was agonizing so much. It was the agony of relief. Agony of relief. That's what they go. But it made me think, you know, it was a belief. He's more talented.

You know, in short, they're all great golfers and all that, but he just, that's why I said he hits it further, hits it higher. Well, he may do better now. Now that the monkey's off his back, he may go on. What is there to do? Now he doesn't, you know. It doesn't matter anymore? He went in again. Does it really matter? I mean.

I mean, the guy's got hundreds of millions of dollars. But Jace is right. Because normally, I mean, I watch the Masters every year. And there's always like some surprise person that's never won. Or like Scotty Scheffler, who's a great golfer, who finally won the Masters like three or four years ago. You're always like, I'm always emotional.

Tiger won it after being hurt a few years ago. I always respond emotionally, but I did not. I was just like Jace. I felt just almost bad for him. I couldn't typically on something like that, but it was almost just like they built it up too much. Oh, it did. That's what I'm saying, Al. It's story number three, viral moment number three on why you need Jesus.

It really is. You guys remember that Tom Brady interview? He's won more Super Bowls than probably maybe anybody. Anybody, any quarterback for sure. Yeah, I mean, he's just one of the greatest quarterbacks in history. And he was being interviewed on 60 Minutes. He's like, yeah, what do you think? You've won all this. You've got all the accolades. You're the GOAT. You're the greatest of all time.

And he said, there's got to be more than this. He said that after he had accomplished everything he accomplished, he sat in that and sat in that accomplishment and thought there's got to be more than

Not that the other, I mean, it matters. We could compete, have fun, win stuff, create stuff. But yeah, it can crush, that weight can crush a man. Oh, I know. Well, look, it started off, the Jim Nant said, the tournament started. This is what lured me in because I wish I hadn't watched it.

Because it was riveting drama that if anybody's played golf. And look, even that, I went out, I played golf twice in a year. After it was all over, I grabbed the bag and went over to Willie's and started chipping some balls. You know what I thought? Because I thought...

I have the Holy Spirit of God in me. Come on, somebody. This guy, he was having such a battle with his spirit within him. It was based nothing on the shots. It was literally a mental, you're watching a mental breakdown shot by shot. And then talent wins out, and then the mental breakdown. It was just one of the most awful things I've ever watched in my life, you know.

But I'm like, well, I got the Holy Spirit of God. What am I worried about? I'd go out there and break par just with that alone in my mind. I got to get my mind right. I mean, Jesus had the greatest comeback ever. His body came out of the ground. These guys are all worked up about putting a little round. I don't even know what golf balls are made of.

But they're just trying to put it in the ground. You know, the contrast of what you're doing as far as life could not be greater as far as the chasm. And so I'm like, yeah, I think I need to work on my golf game mentally. I mean, because I'm, you know, I know enough about golf to know that what am I nervous about?

Well, it's also, J.C., it reminded me how susceptible we all are to manipulation of media. Like, because they had like been, and I didn't even watch the first three rounds. So somebody that watched all four rounds, I can't imagine how they were feeling at the end of it. I just watched the last day yesterday. Yeah.

And I just realized you can be hyped up into something just because people keep – because they kept having Nicholas on there in between commercials and stuff. Well, I'm saying it's all about creating drama. So I forgot what I was going to say, but when Ness and they started the telecast –

It was like this place, you know, and they were showing all the views and the flower. It is beautiful. I've been there twice. Me too. It's stunning. But that's, what is that? That's God's creation. Yeah. They just have a lot of money to make it look really good. But he said this place has had moments where time stood still. Not true. Last time I came in town, I stayed at a hotel.

And typically, I stay at Al's house because you are the best host. I don't know why I didn't last time, but I tell you, I didn't sleep good last time. Yeah. But last night, that was the best night's sleep. I've had to come out of that horrible Motel 6 experience. I slept at your house. I know the sleep's always going to be good because you guys only have Helix mattresses. That's right. We sleep on Helix ourselves. Jason, Missy do as well. And we also have one in our guest room. Your sister, Melissa, told me it's the best night's sleep she had had as well, sleeping on Helix mattresses.

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Zach, you were the midnight luxe. Which works because for me, it's not too firm, it's not too soft, and was perfect for us because we're side sleepers. Right. We were the moonlight because we like it somewhere in the middle. But we love Helix. All of us do. We've had a great experience with these guys. One of the reasons we love it so much, as Zach mentioned, is we travel so much. And so when you're on the road, you really miss sleeping at home when you have a fantastic mattress. Yeah.

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Did he just say that? You're going, Jesus, I am? So that's what they're doing is creating that aura of, and now in his mind, he's like, I'm now one of the greatest. They call it the Mount Rushmore of golf. He has won all the majors. So they have six faces now instead of the four, you know.

And Jace, we only have one master. It's not a green jacket. It's like when you try to do a TV show, you take it to network executives. They always say the same two things.

One, they say, if they're complaining on it, they'll say, it's too earnest. I've heard that like a million times. It's too earnest, which means we need more drama. And then the other one is, what are the stakes? We got to have high stakes. But again, it's like building out that

The media companies, they want to build out like a cliff that you're kind of right to the edge of. Either you're going to win a million dollars or you're going to die. That's your two options. That's a good TV show. You know what I mean? Well, I'll tell you this. You know what's weird? Missy and I went and watched the third leg of the season five, The Chosen, on Friday night. So I'd watched the match for a couple days, bits and pieces, and then watched it on the weekend.

And so you basically, in my world, like the Masters of the Drunk, because I'm a golfer, that's as good of dramatic television as you're ever going to get. Even if you weren't a golfer, you're seeing this guy. I mean, he just loses it. And all the stories and Northern Ireland and eight years old. But I had the same, as far as drama, to an even greater degree watching that third leg.

Because it takes you right up to Jesus' before the cross. Yeah. I won't give you all the details, spoiler alert. So that's where season five goes. It's the Passion Week. And man, I'm telling you, it was one of the most dramatic things I've ever watched. In a good way. Yeah, it's kind of interesting because you've been... I mean, think about that story.

What The Chosen has done is you've connected with, it's kind of hard to say this, but you've connected with these characters who are playing, you know, the people, you know, they're playing Jesus. So it puts it in such a real way. Because typically if you have a movie about the, you know, the death of Christ, the passion of Christ, I mean, you have two hours and Mel Gibson's maybe to connect with the character that played Christ, which was Jim Caviezel.

You've been, you guys, I mean, if you're a Chosen fan, you've been watching The Chosen for several years now. I haven't seen this episode, but I... Well, it's three episodes in one at the movies. Yeah. But, well, I think, you know, when you read this, the book, you know, we have the Bible and you read it. There's something about seeing it in picture form that...

that Missy and I was talking about this in really in-depth conversation. Because it's basically what you do when you read it. You try to, you know, just visualize. Like we're in John 6 and we're reading this. Well, I visualize, oh, there was this place, you know, with the real grassy and...

Like you have the baskets and, but it's something that we do when we read it. So when you're seeing it, you're just looking at a director along with, I'm sure they have a little small group of people because the Bible is so controversial as far as we can't agree on like all the components around it. And so you're looking at these guys, like, you know, they had a bunch of meetings and they're like on how we're going to film this. So you're looking at their imagination, uh,

And their understanding of reading Scripture and trying to pull this off, it just becomes just dramatic to me. I'm like, what? How are they going to do this? Because you get so many different takes, even on somebody like Judas, which was a feature part of that. We have the beginning of that of where we're at in John 6 and I think 7. Judas...

is brought up about the first time that he would betray Jesus. I think that's in 7. It's actually at the end of 6, 670 and 71. Yeah, 670. Yeah, that's where we're getting...

Yeah, good call. 671. He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who though one of the twelve was later to betray him. Yeah, and then in just a couple days, Jace, we're going to be on a liturgical calendar. We're actually going to be in what's called Spy Wednesday, which is the day that Judas betrayed Christ during the last week of Christ's life. Do I need to look up liturgical calendar?

Liturgical. Think of it this way. It's more of like the high church. Liturgy just means rhythm, habit. How do you spell that? Liturgy or liturgical? Yeah. L-I-T-U-R-G-I-C-A-L. Liturgical.

Can we just learn something today by the hands of Zach? I thought you were going to cricket that first, but you just... I couldn't find my cricket button. But meaning...

Public ritual of worship performed by a religious group? Yeah, so like your higher church, like your Catholics, your Episcopals, your Lutherans. I didn't know what you meant by higher church. I thought Jesus built the church. It's his. Well, I mean, we're non-denominational. So we don't have like a – there's no board of directors. There's no pope. There's no –

There's no like organizational structure that oversees the local congregation. Which is why, Jace, which is why you said earlier, you made the statement earlier about the controversial nature of Scripture and why it's so hard to recreate things we can watch because of all these...

thousands of years, hundreds of years for some groups of everything they view about the Bible. That was my point. And each group has their own thing that, well, you can't show this or you can't. That's not the way this is supposed to be. Well, John, maybe that's why we came here. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit. Because John 6, where we're at, there's so many arguments that come out of this chapter.

Yeah. I mean, just off the top of my head, where did he say the work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent? That was back in 29. 629. Well, so then you had this, well, James said in chapter 2, I believe, that... Faith without works is dead. But right before that, he said even the demons believe, or maybe he said that after that. It's like, you've got to have actions. Yeah.

They're like, well, did James miss the memo that the work of God is this to believe? So you've had this debate for years. Is it faith alone? What about James? Why did he say that? And so to not even get— Is it works? Do your works save you, or does your faith save you? Well, right. That is the argument. That's the dichotomy. And so then that's one. We're not solving the arguments today, but—

I mean, what I'm saying is the more I read this, I think we're just looking at it through one vein. All these arguments, one vein, which leads to a lot of arguments. And the one vein is kind of is my ticket punched or not? Just what side of this am I going to be at? Just make sure I get in. And that's kind of what all the arguments are about. What must I do?

to get to heaven and not go to hell. Which is the problem, and it's a misreading of John 6 for sure. Well, that's kind of where I was getting at. I don't think his point was to bring up all these arguments for these two groups

I think the overarching point of John 6, from my perspective, is not how do you get into heaven. It's more how does God get heaven into you? It's a flipping of the script. But you say that, Zach, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, which is what John 6 is about. But I think a lot of people out there, when they hear that, they're like, what does that mean?

And, you know, I think I have a thought on that, on what it means that we'll reveal as we read this. But I do think it keeps you away from arguments that I really feel like are just a waste of time. I don't think that was the point at all. But I'll give you the next one. I'm doing this off the top of my head. The Judas argument, that was another one I was going to bring up because he's brought up here. It's like, well, why?

Why did Jesus say here in the middle of John 6 that God's will was for him not to lose any that he had given him? That's in 29, no, in 39, 639. This is the will of him who sent me that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. And you're like, well, didn't you lose one? You know,

In Judas? And so then here comes an argument, like, well, he was never in, or God had already planned for him to do that. And so then you get into the other argument. He never had a real choice. Yeah, which is the other argument in this passage is where I thought this was fascinating.

Because this is the only time here in John 6 and John 12 this phrase is used, where it says the Father draws people. That's in 644. Stop grumbling among yourselves, Jesus answered. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

So then you get into another argument, which is really, how would you sum that argument up, Zach? The predestination of individuals versus the free will choice or how that works? Yeah, I don't like to frame it that way because... Well, I'm just trying to frame the argument. Yeah, I would say that it depends on what circle you're in. If you ask...

do you believe in predestination? Your answer should always be yes, because it's in the Bible. Thank you. So you gotta, you gotta raise the, like, yes, we believe in predestination. The question, I think the real debate is what does predestination mean? Stop what you're doing right now. You know,

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That's 844-463-4059. Or you can visit vom.org slash unashamed. That's vom.org slash unashamed. Yeah. Or what did he mean by how does the Father draw you? Now, there's a terrible translation of this.

In this same chapter, and you say, well, Jace, are you some kind of Greek scholar? No, but what I mean by terrible translation, there's a verse in the NIV that says, no one can come unless the Father enabled. That's in verse 65.

I'll read that. For Jesus in 64, he says, yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and would betray him, which we're back to the Judas argument. He went on to say, this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him. The NIV says, but the word is the same word

as give that is mentioned multiple times in this chapter. I was shocked when I looked it up. So to give you that verse where it says what I read earlier in verse 39, and this is the will of him who sent me that I shall lose none of them that he has given me. Well, see the word given? Yeah. It's the exact Greek word where it says unless the father, that's why most translations says father,

grants him or gives him. You see? Yeah. So that, I think those are the base. And did I cover them all out of these passages? Well, you've also got the big one on the, the idea of the, uh, Eucharist, uh,

Oh, yeah, transubstantiation, which is a huge controversy. If you talk to a Catholic or Lutheran, they believe in something called transubstantiation, which means that when you actually ingest the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper or the communion, when you eat the flesh, you eat the bread, and you drink the blood, it transforms everything.

into the actual flesh and blood of Christ. And so that's another big debate that comes out of John 6 is on how we understand the Eucharist. Is it symbolic? Is the Lord's table, is the Eucharist, is it a means of salvation or of grace, rather? Or is it an ordinance of grace? Meaning, is it like an expression of it? And so most Protestants believe that when you partake in the Lord's

supper the eucharist the communion that it's it's an expression of the grace of god when um your lutherans and your catholics would and i think eastern orthodox maybe too would believe that um this would be an actual means of grace yes so there's that debate as well well maybe that's why there's uh

those gatherings seem to be a little stiff. It's like paralysis through over analysis. Because you just went over the argument and I still am confused by exactly what that means. Well, do you believe that the bread and the wine...

Is that just a symbol or is it turned into the actual flesh and blood of Christ when you take it? And look, for us today, we could look at that and just kind of, hmm, yeah, whatever you think. But if you go back a while back, people literally had terrible things happen to them if you believed the opposite of that. I actually think the discussion on that is interesting. I do think that like...

I like to listen to a lot of different perspectives on things because for me, I may not fully go somewhere like a Catholic position, for example, but I do appreciate that they do have in their kind of idea of the Eucharist and Eastern Orthodox the same way. There is a very high emphasis on the physical world, which I think –

fundamentalist Christianity has actually, we've under-emphasized the physical world. And so I think there is some goodness in it. I don't think it's like, that's why I don't, but you read it and you think, man, we're just going to throw this side out, throw this side out. I mean, I think everybody's kind of bringing important things to the table that we should at least talk about. And you don't have to, I always say this, you can eat the fish and spit out the bones. I've tried to. Well, another, maybe a little more subtle controversy out of this text is

Because Jesus does both. Is it the emphasis on flesh or

Oh, that's another good one. Yeah. Because that thing comes up a lot here. And that's an old argument that even was around even before Jesus came to the earth. And that's involved in this discussion as well. Yeah. I feel like this is where I land. I mean, I certainly have thoughts on all of the things we've talked about. And I've gotten into, believe it or not, Jace, this won't shock you, I've gotten into a lot of robust arguments on this. I've found them to be a big shocker.

I have found them to be not very productive. One, I don't think I've ever convinced someone of my position who is entrenched on the other side of any of these arguments. I don't think I have either. I'm at a point where I'm just kind of, they're so confusing that I've just, I think the arguments are based on the wrong person.

How would I say that? On the wrong emphasis of what Jesus was saying. And the only way to prove that is to really just read the chapter and kind of give our take on it. Because my view is complicated. Because I think Jesus was trying to do a couple of things. And really watching The Chosen helped me realize this.

Because what you find that when you try to take this confusion from the disciples and from the people who are watching these signs, you're like, how come they're not getting it? I always struggle with that. And my dad did too. Remember, he'd always bring that up. He's like, he's told them many times that he would have to die and be raised, and they just can't get it.

And that really came out, and I think the Chosen did an excellent job of that. It's just because in their mind, look, in their mind, they had a different narrative of what the Messiah was going to do. And therein lies the problem with all these arguments. I really feel like, and this is, I'm going to set this out here and then try to prove it.

is that we're looking at this from our perspective. And that's why I brought up the heaven and hell argument. It's like, really, you know, here you are, you find yourself on the planet, you hear, oh, there's possibly a way to live again. And then, you know, people tell you, but you need to get off this place because everything we look around dies.

Yeah, I think that's what I mean. I think it's a good point when you say that. I forget how you just said it, but I would say it this way, that when we get into the discussion of the transubstantiation is a little bit of a different concept. But when we get into the other discussion around predestination election, you know, the whole like that whole debate that is that people have debated since the 1500s. Right.

Or probably further back than that. It's just hard to find. Yeah, I think it came to light through the Reformation, which we're all—I mean, that's another thing, too. Someone says, are you Reformed? Well, if you're Protestant, then technically you're Reformed. I hope the people who follow you know what you're talking about, because when you get off into these rabbit holes, I'm just lost, you know, because I don't know. Well, I think—well, my point is, as you brought up some of the passages about the Son—

No one can come unless he's drawn. And I mean, that's true. It's in the Bible. I think that that's biblical. So we can't. Well, I do think that when I said, look, I looked that word up and I think I want to share this. It's only used here in John 6 and John 12, which I'll read the one in John 12, because I do think that.

helps you understand a little bit what he means by that in John 12. Remember when he says in John 12, the hour has come, that's in verse 23, for the Son of Man to be glorified. And then 27, he says, my heart is troubled. What shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. I got the chosen on my mind because they really dug deep into that.

And so then you hear this voice from heaven that says, I've glorified it and will glorify it again, which is obviously the Father. The crowd there heard it. They thought it had thundered. Others said an angel had spoken to him. But then Jesus says in verse 30, the voice was for your benefit, not mine.

Now is the time for judgment on this world. Now the prince of this world will be driven out. So it's this reference to the evil one being disarmed, cast away. And then he says in verse 32, but when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die, which in my simple mind, I'm like, well, you know what? No matter where the debate goes, Jesus is the draw. One of the things my dad taught me when I was a kid was that trees do not need hugs. People do. However, the problem with trees is

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unashamed at checkout that's an additional 15 off at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code unashamed at checkout fastgrowingtrees.com code unashamed now it's the perfect time to plant use unashamed to save today offer is valid for a limited time terms and conditions may apply jesus is the draw so every other time that greek word is used it's used twice

In here, the Father drawing people, Jesus as the draw lifted up. Every other time, I think this is fascinating. It's when it's used in John. Remember when they put out the nets and they drew them in, pulled them in? It translates dragged or pulled. That's the word. The only other time it's used is in Acts when people...

were dragged out of the temple or dragged in some scrap that happened. That's it. It's only used about seven or eight times. And think about the nets that they used originally when they were catching fish. The nets broke.

Right. At the beginning of the calling of the disciples. Exactly. At the end of the Bible, at the end of when Christ was meeting with them after the resurrection, they filled the nets, but they didn't break. So I think that's the idea. And Christ doesn't lose anybody. Christ is never going to, oh, that one got away. I didn't see that happen. I mean, it's the idea that...

There is a, like God does not lose any of his sheep. Yeah, exactly. Now, that doesn't mean they may say, well, I don't want to come. But since we're in that same vein, I want to say, I do think it's interesting that when Jesus started this ministry of the kingdom and introduced it, he looked at those fishermen and said, look, I'll make you fishers of men. Right.

And the reason I'm bringing that up is because I believe that draw, he's talking about giving them something in the next chapter, the Holy Spirit, which he had referred to Nicodemus and John 3, and us being God's representatives. I mean, just think about what that means. I'll make you fishers of men. Isn't that what Jesus is doing? Didn't he come to seek and save the lost people?

And so it's like he's trying to establish this, what he's doing, you will also do. Remember the passages that he said, oh, these are great things. Well, you'll see greater things than that. Where I'm getting that from is 1 John 4, where he says, which we're going to study 1 John 4 after this. Just listen to this verse, Zach. It says, this is the love for 10.

Not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, which we just read John 12, is how he would draw men to himself, right? Yeah. Well, then verse 11 says, Dear friends, since God so loved us, will we also ought to love one another? Kind of getting onto this fishers of men type of thing, because now it's being given to people.

No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us, which is a direct almost quote from John 1 where it says, Jesus, no one has ever seen God, but John 1 17 says, the son has made him known. And now look, 1 John 4 13, we know that we live in him and he and us because he's given us his spirit.

He's given us his spirit. Well, John 7 is going to get into that, that streams of living water will flow in you. Well, what does that do? It flows out to other people, the spirit of God. And so then it says in verse 14 of 1 John 4, and we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment because in this world, we are like him. So my point is, I think we don't.

get into this because if you have the Holy Spirit of God, well, people are supposed to see God. And if you said, look, you're looking at God, he's in here. Well, you're going to get the same argument that Jesus was getting when he said, hey, if you see me, you've seen the Father. If you told somebody, if you see me, you've seen Jesus, people are immediately going to say, oh, I'm uncomfortable right now. What are you saying, that you're God? And I'm saying, no, I just read 1 John 4.

I have the Holy Spirit of God. He's in here. He's in me. So do you see where I'm going with this? Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I think it's when you think about the role of the Holy Spirit in all of this as well, it's, I mean, he does initiate all revelation.

to us about Christ. So I've said this in a previous podcast, but, but for example, I don't think we are kind of like walking around in the forest as explorers and we're like, Oh, look what we've discovered. Look what we've figured out. Now I think God has to always speak first before we can ever have eyes to see. And we could, before we can learn or be taught, God has to speak. So I would probably go as far as to say that man doesn't have a,

an original thought ever. Every thought that you or I would ever have, it actually began in the mind of God as God spoke. I can't hear until God speaks. And so the Bible talks about revelation in this way. In seminary, they'll call it general and I think special or specific revelation or special revelation.

generally God reveals himself to us through creation. That's Romans chapter one. Like the invisible attributes of God have been seen and clearly revealed

from what's been made. And one of the indictments on the Gentiles is that even though they did not have the official Torah or any of the Old Testament, they should have known who God was by what has been made. And what they did was they took and exchanged the glory of God that was revealed through creation, and they actually ended up worshiping the things that were created. So God does speak, right? He speaks to us. Well, He does, but then He chose to speak through Jesus, which...

Well, that's going to be more like your special revelation. But he became a part of creation in that he came through a woman. And so I think that's why people get confused. But all I'm saying is how you respond, like we brought up the whole Rory McIlroy and the masters and all that, how he responded...

Gave you some weird glimpse into the spiritual battle inside his mind. And I don't mean capital S, but just like where you can't see all of a sudden, you're like, man, this guy...

was consumed by this. But you have to have eyes to see. And my point is that I think what we're going to see throughout all of Jesus' teaching is that is only going to come through the revelation from the Holy Spirit. So the revelation of who Christ is and as Christ draws all men to himself is

Like I can't see that until the Holy Spirit says open. He convicts me and I see it because he told me that's the only way I can see it. I think you've swerved into what I see as the arch in John five and six, which we'll do in the next podcast because we're almost out of time is general revelation and specific revelation that Jesus brought. And I think in that specific, there are two things that are the big narrative here and that's the spirit and the resurrection. But,

I'll get into that next time. And we all will. We'll just read through the text next time, Daze. And then we'll just kind of reset it and let it speak for itself on the next Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.