Ep 961 | Willie Suffers an Injury Behind Bars, ‘The Silence of the Lambs’ & the Power of Angels & Demons
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I am unashamed. What about you?

Welcome back to Unashamed. It was interesting because you can tell we're all getting old because we're all talking about our injuries. Oh, yeah. Zach, you're down your back again. Is that what I understand? I've never had one this bad. I was headed to San Quentin and Cole, who works here. Well, it sounds like a country music song. Yeah, is this a Johnny Cash song? I was off to San Quentin.

You weren't going there to stay. You were just going there. We were there. We went there with God behind bars. And...

Me, Willie, Cy, Corey. So Cy went to San Quentin too? I didn't know if he's going to get out now. Oh, really? Did they let him out? They let him out. But look, Cy was... I didn't realize his status in the prison world, but it's another... Nobody wanted Willie's autograph. I mean, they were headed... I mean, Cy was like... Rock star. Oh, rock star status. Rock star status. But I got up...

Because Cole was sick, so he was going to take all the – we showed the blind there, and it was awesome. And then we did a whole next day event. We cooked like 8,000 hot dogs and had preachers come in, end up having baptisms at the end. It was awesome. But I was brushing my teeth at 5 in the morning, and I felt something pop brushing my teeth. Vigorous. That must have been a vigorous –

Do you have gingivitis? Do you have, I don't know, but I'm going to brush that hard. You thought I'm just like brushing, you know, I'm doing the part where you cough and spit everything out and do all that. And I mean, it was, and I mean, I just, I mean, that's, that's officially worse than my shower incident. And Jason's putting on his shoes. Oh, I hit the floor. And I mean, I'm like, I can't get off the floor, but I have, I have to take the movie.

Because we got a thousand inmates going to watch this movie tonight. And I didn't know what I was going to do. Make a long story short, because it is a long story. I laid on the floor for 30 minutes, got up. I barely made it. I mean, it was like a crippled man. I mean, I'm still crippled. I get to St. Quentin, and then Willie and Corey show up, and Willie sees me walking around.

And what do you think he did? You think he had compassion on me? I think he ripped you to shreds. I mean, he unleashed on me and had, like, all the volunteers. Everybody was laughing at me. I mean, and I got thick skin. I can take it. What was wrong? What snapped? What went wrong? I don't know what happened. Lower back. I just felt a pop. And, I mean, I dropped to the floor.

I never had a back injury like this. I mean, this is next level. Well, most people go to a medical professional at that point. It took me a week. Yeah, I probably should have. Does San Quentin have a doctor? They got a doctor there. And one of the inmates said, hey, we got some cream here. I'm telling you. I'm not sure you want that prison. I didn't know. But the best part of the trip, though, was the last. So that happened two days ago.

We had the event that night, watched the movie. Incredible response, by the way, Phil, to your story. I mean, it was, we had a room full of, a chapel full of inmates and tears over the redemptive power of Jesus. The next day, we had different speakers come and Willie spoke, Si spoke. We had a, there's a guy named Ben Fuller that led worship. I mean, he's going to come on the podcast. He's amazing.

And Levi Lusko spoke. Well, Willie, they had bad, bad, bad history set up out, out, out in front of the stage. And so afterwards, I'd say about 120 inmates were baptized into Christ. Well, which is which is amazing. And the best part of it, that Willie, while he was baptizing these guys, it was one of them was about 320 pounds of solid muscle.

about six, seven, Willie went to baptizing, but the water around like was spilling out of the tub and created like a mud puddle of just muddy, like mud around it. Well, well, Willie loses his grip and his legs slides out and he does a, he does the splits. Oh, wow. And so he, he, he pulled, he pulls his growing and, and,

And I saw, I didn't know what happened, but he was like hobbling and he was in like severe pain at the end of all this. And he like walks behind the trailer that's over there and he's like grabbing the inside of his legs and he's moaning and he's in like real pain.

And he's already ripped you to shreds for the joy that I felt. And I was like, what's wrong, Willie? Sounds like you and your comrades were, were falling apart. Oh yeah. So then we're both like hobbling back in the hotel room. And, uh, now Corey's laughing at both of us. And so, but there, there, I say all that to say that, that it like,

the lord was he was there people were baptized willie was humbled it was it was great oh so good it reminds me of that episode of doug dynasty where they were playing the big football they were taking on the junior high kids remember jay's and then they they were going to race willie was going to race the young views and so he pulls his hamstring

for real in, in the race on, for on television and the look on his face when I was watching the episode, because that, you know, you can tell he was really hurt, but you know, it looked like, is he faking, you know, people I'm sure in the audience weren't sure, but I laughed so hard because I knew I was like, he really did it. You know, people laugh at people's misery. The validation of that was the next five episodes. Willie was always sitting down. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Well, the best advice I got, which was the worst advice I got, actually, was there's a pastor out of Montana named Levi.

who preached right before the baptisms. And he said, Zach, I've had back problems for years, and I've got the solution, which was good advice until I found out what the solution was. He said, once you can get to where you can do a five-minute plank, you'll never have back problems again. A five-minute what? Plank, where you get in a position on your elbows, right?

It's like you do a push-up without going up and down. You just hold it. So he said, if I can learn to hold that position for five minutes, I won't have back pain. And I was like, we have –

That's a lot. A five-minute plank. I say, thank you for the encouragement. Well, then it becomes a weight distribution problem. So the more weight you have as it settles from north to south. Kind of like the thing the doctors take a picture of your vertebrae.

And they say, yeah, one of them is coming apart. One of your vertebrates. One of my vertebrates. And this happened to you two years ago. It's coming apart. Do you have any of that cement left? They said they bored a hole in it. Fill the hole. Yeah. Fill that with fillings.

A week later, I told them, you must have missed one. We got another one. Got another one. They checked. They said, you are correct. There's another one. They fixed that one, and I have not had any kind of sign of pain at all. Do you think you could do that process to Zach? Because I would watch that. Yeah. Drill the hole. Yeah.

Put the cement in. Now that should be a podcast. That's must-see TV. And the pain leaves. You don't fall down in front of the mirror when you're at a speaking event. Yeah. The moral of that story was Zach, he slipped a disc brushing his teeth, and Willie pulled a girl in during a baptism. So I have the answer if you're ready.

All right, what is it? What's the answer? The answer is for our struggle is not against flesh and blood. I was thinking the exact same thing. And there's a parenthetical that I will create right after that, unless you're getting old. But look, I mean, you're exactly right. That may be the, so many good spiritual things are happening out there. That may have been an attack, Zach, on you. I think what straightens all this out

And I think it's critical. In the middle of the Ephesians letter, and the Apostle Paul being a prisoner, he said, look, be completely humble and gentle. Be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. We need to remember the Apostle Paul's word. There's one body.

of the members of Christ's church worldwide. There's one Spirit they're given, just as you were called with one hope when you were called. There's one Lord, His name is Jesus. There's one faith, you believe in Him. There's one baptism, there's one God of all who is over all and through all and in all.

So I don't understand what the ruckus is when I'm preaching to somebody. I just make sure that this is worked in there. Yeah. It's not rocket science. It's not real hard to get. It's just there. You said, but to rule that out and say, forget that. I mean, it's nonsense. So we left off in Ephesians 6. That was a preview. Ephesians 4 says,

As we move further, Al, unless you have any other story. No, I was going to say just to set that because we had an interesting way of getting to it in the last podcast. We were arguing about something. Then we got into the text. The context, I think, is brilliant. What Paul does here, because he's been he's been talking about what dad just read.

This idea of unity, bringing people together, Gentile, Jew, all that. And then he goes into this practical illustration of how these relationships on earth are to look like Christ's relationship with us. And we've been talking about that, you know, in the first part, last part of chapter five, early part of chapter six. And then he comes in and says, now, look, here's what's going to happen. All these things I've been telling you, there is an enemy that,

lined up against you that will try to make everything I've talked about not happen. And so I think that's why this whole idea of the armor and him describing our enemy and who he is is so crucial. And I can't tell you, yesterday even, I was on the phone with a person who's had infidelity in their marriage. And somebody said, will you talk to us? I said, sure. And the first thing I told him was, your wife is not your enemy.

But you do have one. You both have one.

And he's working overtime in your relationship to destroy your marriage and your children and your family. That's what he does. And so I think it's a brilliant way that Paul sort of brings us all to conclusion. He could have started with it or ended with it. And the idea that you have to stay laser focused on who the real enemy is, which, which is the evil one. Cause in our hearts, we, we think, well,

Well, having a king is not necessarily a good thing just as a human being on planet Earth. And why is that? Because, well, what if the king is bad or having, you know, a master is a terrible thing, you know, because he's because people do corrupt things. They're abusive, abrasive and whatever else you can think of, people can do.

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You're right, James, because we're part of a system, a country that literally rebelled against an earthly king. That's how we got here. We got here. We're like, we don't like lords. And when you hear someone lording something over them, we're we're going to rebel. I mean, our nature is rebel. We don't like authority. We don't like anybody telling us what to do. But so he's flipping that on his head. Inherently, we think that's a bad thing. And rightfully so.

But what if the master Lord King was a hundred percent? You know, I listed a few things, righteous, just loving, not self-seeking, fair, compassionate creator of everything, eternal,

Well, then all of a sudden it's like, well, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Yeah. Because he's encouraging people to do something. And this is really the focus of why Jesus came to earth. He's encouraging people to surrender to him. Yeah. And it's not something that people inherently want to do because the result of that is we don't trust anybody because everybody is sinful, selfish, selfish.

abusive, and abrasive. So I think there's one angle to that, which he's saying, I'm God. I'm pure. I'm peace-loving. I'm all the qualities that he had. If everything's good, that actually would not be a bad thing, surrendering to a king like that. And I think on the other side, we read that for our struggles, not against flesh and blood, because a lot of people inherently think

that everything about being a human is bad. But that's not true. When you're born, it's not that you have flesh and blood that is the negative thing. He's describing what's going to happen is in this battlefield of the earth, there's God's power that you can surrender to. Then there's every other kind of power out there from the evil world. I mean, he listed...

a few here. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. So, and that's what happens. Those powers come in, idols come in, which is anything other than the creator God. So it gives the two entities that supply the,

the different powers. You have God's power. Then you have every other power that people make up from the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. So I think that's the way we should get into this because it's not, there's no other options. And so it's not inherently wrong to have a king if it has the qualities of Jesus and it's not inherently bad to be human. It's a gift from God. That's how, that's how we got here.

But as we grow and get the ability to discern, we start making choices on which powers we're going to let rule our life. Yeah. And Zach, I think, provided the perfect illustration for what you just talked about, Jace, by opening this with this idea of, would you call it Zach, God behind bars? The idea is a prison is a microcosm of all of us.

Because we become in prison. That's why the blind, I'm sure, was such a factor because people are sitting there watching this movie about mom and dad's young life and dad being imprisoned.

in his own mind, in his actions, not being what they were supposed to be. But then you see the release of that whenever you submit yourself to what you're talking about, Jay. So it's a great physical picture of the spiritual battle. Well, you know what it reminds me of is the movie, what was the name of that movie, with Hannibal Lecter?

Silence of the lamp. Yeah, silence of the lamp. Now, look, they did this because you know Hollywood, because they wanted to make Hannibal Lecter look as crazy as possible. But there's a conversation right at the beginning of the movie. This is off the top of my head, so I might get it wrong. But I remember the FBI agent or whoever was interviewing. Clarice. Yeah, Clarice made this statement. How does a person get like this?

Because she was thinking, like we all do in our earthly culture, when you see something really bad happen...

You're like, well, how did this happen? I mean, what went wrong? So they start looking at the childhood and all. Well, Hannibal Lecter starts giving a dissertation about that. Because he's a psychiatrist, you know. Well, yeah. It's like, well, how does this thing, you know, happen? And somehow when he gets to the end of his little speech about how this happens, he's like, well, what if I'm just evil?

Which they wanted to say, oh, this guy's crazy. But you know, when he said that, I thought, I think we got it. There's an evil force out there which controls people after they allow them in and submit to, and they do evil things. And I think it's laid out clearly here. I just think most people, when they get to this text,

I'm saying most people in the world. When you bring up that statement, put on the full armor of God, they're like, okay, yeah, be strong in his mighty power. Yes, so that you can take against your stand against the devil schemes. Most people have a hard time believing that. He'll take you to a dark place. I mean, you think about, I know it's a movie, but.

I mean, they got pretty dark at the point where he says he ate some guy's liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. It's like you can go to a – humans are capable of extreme levels of evil beyond what sometimes the human mind can even comprehend. How could someone do such an evil thing? But truthfully, we're all capable of –

Well, we're created beings with choices. Even the devil, you know, because people, my point is, we all believe in a devil because we believe in the Bible and we look around. But I think a lot of people think the devil is just some...

picture of an imagination. I mean, there's like, there's no real devil. I mean, and so even I think, you know, CS Lewis in that, in his book, the screw tape letters or whatever, he he's like, most people fall into two categories. Unfortunately, they're on both extremes. They either put him doing too much where he's just like controlling people without any kind of choice or, or it's just a flippant little red figure with a pitchfork and,

They give them all the credit. The devil made me do it or they give them no credit at all. Yeah, that's right. I think that's where most people fall into that category.

But, you know, I think that's why so many people have denied the demonic. We were talking about the Hannibal Lecter movie, but probably more, even more real than that is a Steve Deese's movie, uh, nefarious, you know, which, you know, again, captivated in a prison cell about whether a person was demon possessed or not, who had murdered people. And it was, it was fascinating to watch because, uh,

I mean, it's evil is real and demons are real. And we know this because, you know, Jesus dealt with many a one in his day, uh,

You know, which my personal opinion is the reason you saw so much demonic activity is because everything was upside down when Jesus was physically on the earth. Yeah. So there was quite the upheaval in the spiritual realm. But look, this stuff is this text we're in about the armor. I mean, it's very clear that these forces are real.

And that they're lined up against us. And this was after Jesus had gone back and is serving King in heaven. But even the waiting on the him coming back is to put things under his feet, you know, which is evil. Evil doesn't exist. Evil doesn't exist as like in its own right. Evil is a distortion of what's true and what's good. And so when that gives me comfort, because like I want to respect people.

you know, the demonic realm and respect. Obviously, the Bible says that even the Archangel Michael did not bring a slanderous accusation against the devil when they were disputing over the body of Moses. So we don't slander people

celestial beings. There's a reverence there for what's going on, but we can take comfort in the fact that because what they're doing is they're not creating anything. Evil doesn't create anything. It's not created. It's a distortion of what God's already made. It's a distortion of what's good and what's true. We serve a God who gave us

The ultimate power in the Holy Spirit. That's why I think in this Ephesians passage, I mean, the Holy Spirit's right dead in the center of it. Like, right. He like we have some someone who who is greater than any evil force that God has given us to rely on. One of the things that we talk about a lot on this podcast is the pro-life movement.

And we've had a lot of partners that are out there kind of in the fight for life that have been on the podcast before. And one of those is a group called Preborn.

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Let's join together and help mothers choose life. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250, keyword baby, or go to preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed. It's a good point because people have asked me before, you know, do you believe we have guardian angels? And, you know, I'm always like, well, I have the Holy Spirit, which is better than an angel.

And I think people don't realize, even though, you know, the Hebrews passage talks about are not all angels ministering spirits, you know, and, but they were created beings with a free will, obviously, because the devil chose not to surrender to

to God's plan for his life. And led some sort of rebellion in the other realm. And this is all going on in the heavenly, spiritually realm. And they do manifest themselves here. But my point is, there's a finite number of angels. So it's not like they're just...

you know, everywhere because it, you know, the Matthew 18, 10 probably comes the closest to, you know, the idea of a guardian angel, but it's still in heaven. That's the context of, you know, when Jesus said, unless you change and become like little children. And he talked about the value of children. I mean, the whole thing, the whole chapter is, is about that. He even used the analogy of like he did in Luke 15 with, uh,

If a farmer has 100 sheep and loses one, will not God try to find the one? Will he use it in the context of not even a child being lost? Don't cause them to stumble. Then the Matthew 18.10, he says that don't look down on children for their angels see the face of the Father. But it says in heaven.

And so my point is, if you felt like you needed to have a guardian angel, well, why was there abuse against kids? Wouldn't the angel stop that? I mean, child abuse happens every day. It probably just happened, unfortunately. And so that's my point is that it's not like the devil. He's one angel.

He's not omnipresent. Yeah, he's not omnipresent because everybody, I mean, they got t-shirts, you know, and I mean, he's not eternal. He was created. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's 9 billion people here on the earth, 8 to 9 billion. So it's, I think that's why he listed this in categories of these spiritual forces. And even when you made that quotation about the Archangel Michael having a dispute with

With the devil over the body of Moses, because that quickly goes over your head and you're like, well, why was that important? Well, you start to realize when you read some of the verses, why you remember Hebrews 2, 14, when it says, since the children have flesh and blood, Jesus to share it in their humanity so that his death by his death, he might destroy him.

who holds the power of death. Cause this Ephesians six is all about which power are you surrendering to? Well, how did the evil one have the power of death? Well, you start tying all the other verses together. He was a murderer from the beginning. You know, the temptations that he is rendering to people is don't work it out. Don't, don't, uh, say any unwholesome talk. Uh,

All these things Jesus said, I mean, Paul said to the spirit in Ephesians 4 about getting along with people. Well, the evil one's saying the opposite. Just kill him. Get away with it. And that body is confirmation that his power worked.

And so there was a dispute because it remember God buried Moses and nobody knew where it was. So there was a dispute in the spiritual world about where's that body. You said, why was the evil one, the devil concerned about that? Because he wanted to confirm that he was dead. Where's the body? And I think that's really interesting.

When you think about it and how he works in trying to tempt people. Now, the reason he does it, I don't know that's open for discussion. The good news is, to your point earlier, James says this, submit yourselves, chapter 4, verse 7, submit yourselves then to God, resist the devil, and here, I love this next part, and he will flee you.

So I think we do think a lot of times that the devil is just always sitting right there crouching at each one of our, you know, he's in our, he's right in our wheelhouse. Now there may be demons around, whatever, but, but we, the devil cannot be in the same place, two places at the same time.

But God can and God is. And I have the Holy Spirit of God living in me. And I'm in Black Mountain, North Carolina. Al, you're down in Alabama. You have the same Holy Spirit in your body. And then Phil and Jace have the same exact Holy Spirit in their body in Louisiana. The devil can't do that. And so we are to take a lot of comfort. And so if you find it comforting to think of yourself as having a

a guardian angel, how much more comfort should you take in knowing that the Holy Spirit lives in you? And that's why Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the comforter. It's one of the reasons why he calls him the comforter. The counselor, the guide. The counselor. We got God living in us. I mean, that's a big point, Jace. Yeah, and it insulates us in the fight. It's interesting you brought up about the body of Moses, Jace, because it also shows you the power of God.

In the sense that when God makes exceptions for anything, he can do whatever he wants to. He's God. Because you see the situation with Moses, same with Elijah. You know, he just got caught up in a little tornado and took off. And guess who shows up to have a little powwow with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?

Yeah. Those two. I mean, it was a pretty good picture to show you that God is all powerful. I mean, well, and there's a lot of subtleties in this. Even when I broke up and brought up that Matthew 18, 10, I do because people opened up a can of worms there.

But, you know, Jesus represents us as saved people at the right hand of God, which I think is the prerequisite to even understanding Ephesians 6. You know, he gives us his Holy Spirit. He's at the right hand of God, exalted king, even though that's against our nature to surrender to a king. But since he's good, he gives us the Holy Spirit. We make his presence known. But he's representing us in the heavenly realms because that has come up several times in Ephesians 6.

But even the children who have angels who are representing them and their innocence in the heavenly realms, which to me is comforting. And that's why when you get into God's justice and making things all right in the end at the resurrection, we get new bodies. I mean, there's going to be no...

Exhibition of the evil powers and injustice that happens that God is not going to hold to account in the end. And if you didn't have that, I don't think this planet could move on from some of the injustices that happen. And the reason, Jace, that the book of Job is in the Bible for us to read is to understand what you just said and to know that there are forces that work against you.

And because we got to see how that went down behind the scenes. And then we saw a man's life turned upside down. All those forces of evil were working against him. And even his dopey friends come in and they still wanted to say it was all him. You did this. And he was like, well, I guess I did. I can't argue that. But then so the whole thing is a back and forth over where does this come from? And so I would I would put just on the idea of the angels in heaven, though.

I think the term heaven is, is, is,

It refers to the realm of where God's rule is. It refers to the realm of where I think the spiritual and the material meet. Willard wrote a whole lot about this in The Divine Conspiracy, but it's really the idea of the kingdom. And so I think that you can interpret that verse in Matthew 18 as, I don't think heaven is a far-off, distant future reality.

I think Jesus is teaching. I mean, Jesus brought it together. No, I agree. We just can't see it. Can't see it. That's why you have some strange passages in the Bible. You remember the... I don't remember the details because I haven't read it in a while, but Daniel 10 is where it's at. Daniel prayed...

And the Lord sent him an angel. But then when the angel got there, he was three weeks late. He was like, well, I got held up doing something else. I was fighting the Prince of Persia. Yeah, the Prince of Persia. And my point is that wherever the hub of the, I mean, you're right, in the heavenly realms that we can't see,

They are finite beings. And the fact that it took him three weeks to get out of this other skirmish just made me realize, okay, they're not around every street corner. It's like we, in our worship songs and in our talk among Christians, we just seem to have them around every corner. And I'm like, why'd this angel get held up for three weeks? I mean, couldn't we have not sent another one?

Or, you know. Yeah. You see where I'm going there. I...

Chase, I don't know if this is true for you, but when my wife is on fire about something spiritually, it makes my life better. I think the Lord was right. She then completes you, Al. When she's happy, I'm usually happy. Exactly. And there's something about that spiritual growth, you know, that does amazing stuff. So there's an opportunity coming up for you guys out there listening to Unashamed, the women in your life, and of course, all of our female listeners as well, that you don't want to miss out on.

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You know, when Paul uses that phrase in Corinthians about the third heaven, and then even Jesus physically levitating,

you know, that away, you know what I mean? Like he, he left here going that away. And so the idea that somehow there is a place and Zach is right. And it's, but it's not, it's not within our eyesight. We've got now, I think it's close. It's just, I should caveat it by saying it's not only like a future reality or play. It is that it's in time, but it's also, uh,

Here and it's in our midst and it's around us. And I love that language of the temple because it's like we're having an earth meet. And it's that place where the kingdom is and the air around us. I mean, it's kind of hard to explain it because it's like it's a different reality, a different realm, not different reality, different realm of reality.

But to view it, I think this has been a big problem in the church, is we viewed heaven way out there. Oh, I agree. And it's just like, then where's the power? I think that's what, when we're talking about the role of the Spirit, and particularly when you were reading 1 and 2 Corinthians in the last podcast,

He's making known to us the treasures that God has for those who love him. What are the treasures? They're treasures of the kingdom. Where's the kingdom? When is the kingdom? Right here, right now, around us. That's why it says, put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's king. All right. Which is Jesus' armor. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood. It's not...

But against the rulers, this thing is organized. Against the authorities, organized. Against the powers of this dark world, they've been with us from the beginning. And against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground.

we tend to be blaming others a lot of people do for what they're saying i pay no attention to that whatsoever i just hold to the truth of the bible god become flesh jesus died on a cross buried in a tomb raised from the dead

It stands no matter what goes on because you're going at the right person. It's not the human beings. It's the power in them that the struggle is with. Yeah, right. And that's what I was going to say about that when it said our struggle is not against flesh and blood. I think when he gets to 1 Corinthians 15, he kind of explains that on why we can't see

That world, even though, you know, Ephesians 1 says that Jesus, in Jesus, he brought everything in heaven and on earth under one head. Yep. And so the next phase of this, you know, if you read the end of 1 Corinthians 15, when he starts talking about the resurrection, which the Holy Spirit in us guarantees, Ephesians 1, 13 and 14 says,

And it says, so will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable. It is raised imperishable. We're familiar with that. You know, it's sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body, but it's still a body. And then he gets into these two worlds because you notice when he said in Ephesians 6, it said our battle was against the spiritual forces of this dark world. So it's like we have a world within a world.

Once we come to Christ, we have the world. And it's organized against us. Yeah. The world that we come out of.

Once we surrender to Christ, well, we're still living in the world, which is why he's looking at it like a battleground. Made me think of that Pat Benatar song, you know. Love is a battlefield. I wonder if that has anything to do with spiritual, but then I looked up the lyrics and said, no. But I think it does.

here it is the earth is a battlefield with these forces oh yeah but then he goes on to say remember which people have a hard time understanding this but you know when he starts talking about adam uh in first corinthians 15 it says so it is written the first man adam became a living being the last adam a life-giving spirit well who's the last adam he's talking about jesus

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that, the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth. The second man from heaven, that's Jesus. This is 1 Corinthians 15, 47.

As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth. That's why we die. That's why you have disputes of the body. And that's why you have all this brokenness and sin and evil powers. And as is the man of heaven, so also are those of heaven. Well, that's us. We have the Holy Spirit of God. We are representing Jesus.

So in verse 49, and just as we have born the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. And so then he explains how this happens at the end, which I think is interesting because then he says, I declare to you that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. So it's like a little riddle here. He's like,

This flesh and blood, even though it's not our struggle, it has limitations in that wherever Jesus is, this is not able to make the trip. And so that's why he comes up with the answer when he says, I tell you a mystery, 51 to 15, we will not all sleep, but we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye, the last trumpet.

the perishable will be raised, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. So I just think it's interesting that there's a mystery about this. I mean, but he actually has given us the answer of how it's going to happen. It still doesn't take away from the reality of Ephesians 6 is talking about right now, the battle that's going on now.

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Yeah, and Jace, that's one of the great mysteries to me. You said it earlier in the podcast about the reason why. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's subjective because we don't know. We don't know. I mean, we know kind of what happened, but why are we so inextricably linked to

to angels in that realm. And, you know, why was Satan allowed to come here? Why does he have the influence? I mean, he even, when he was talking to Jesus himself, boldly proclaim that all the kingdoms were his. And that he could get, that he could give them. Yeah. To Christ. So you talk about, man, you talk about that. That's a pretty bold, arrogant approach. Yep. Do you know what my opinion on that is? I've thought about this.

I think when the Bible says that Satan is the author of all lies, he's the father of lies, when he lies, he speaks his native tongue. I actually believe that Satan thinks that he's actually going to win this thing.

I think that he thought in that moment that I can give you these kingdoms, not realizing what do you like? You're like, cause you ever wonder, why would you know why Jesus was here for sure? Because I just, I mean, I think that he's, he is, if you think about like the nature of sin and evil, and that's why the word truth, by the way, and the counter to evil is this, this belt of truth, this breastplate of righteousness, the word of the sword, the sword of the spirit, which is the word. It's this idea that,

communication of what's real. And for evil to operate, we have to believe in the lie of what it is.

And so when you look at the world around us and you think, man, they're just going to hit rock bottom one day, then they'll turn to Christ. And the truth is, no, that's not actually true. Rock bottom is death and destruction. There's no rock bottom where you get there and you're like, oh, finally I see it. You don't get to truth by getting to a place where you finally see it. You get to truth through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. And I think that Satan believes in these lies and he's...

And he's trying to convince us of the same lie. And the only way that we're going to get out of it is by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit and submitting to him. Well, yeah, I agree with you 100%. And that's why I made such a big deal about love all the way here, because Paul did. Because the fruit of the Spirit is love, and God is love. Well, you can't have love without a choice, and you can't have a choice of love without love.

Sacrificing, service, humility,

All these things. So that's why the lie comes. And I think that's why you're right. The evil one thinks he's going to win because deep down inherently, we don't like to surrender sacrifice. It, it comes to defining what love is. When you say that's the very nature of God. Well, it has to be someone to be loving. Just think of your marriage. Someone has to sacrifice love.

I mean, that's probably the number one thing I've learned about having kids. And my wife said this one time, and it was just like a lightning bolt. But she said, you know, I've realized, because we just had our youngest birthday, and she turned 21. And I was like, well, it's official. Because by any means now, you know, at 21, they're adults. But the poignant statement she made was,

I just didn't realize that having kids was going to be such a daily sacrifice. And I thought, you know what? You're right. When you love your kids, that means you're going to sacrifice every day. That's just what the life that you're called is.

to do. And so it's always interesting when people have infidelity or they're going through, you know, a divorce or whatever. And because the people are trying to help them or bringing up the kids, well, this is going to destroy your kids. And they're like, well, I've sacrificed, you know, all these years and I'm, I'm just done. Well, you're never, it's never going to be like where you, they want to get away from the sacrifice and the service. Yeah.

But this is the nature of love is what I'm saying. It comes back to where it says in love. He predestined us to have this attitude of service and surrender. That's why this passage is so difficult for us to understand is because he's like calling us to battle. So all the men are like, yeah, we're going to war. And he's like, but you got to do it in a sacrificial service manner.

Humble way. And you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? I thought we were fixing to whoop somebody. Bring your children up in the training and instruction in the Lord because they're going to need it. Well, you know, you think about this passage here. You think, man, why would he say that our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places?

I think that's a little more intimidating in some ways, because if it's a political leader, if our fight is against a political leader or political movement or social movement or social leader that's on the planet, then if we can just get rid of them, then we'll be good. And that's why I think that that's the temptation, right? Man, this identified the earthly power. Take them out, cut the head of the snake off, and then everything's going to be great.

But that's never been the case, ever, in history. There's never been a movement or a political figure, dynasty, kingdom, that once we cut the head off of it, oh, that finally solved the problem. You cut the head off of it, and then it pops up in 12 other places. You think, well, why is that? Because our fight is not against flesh and blood. And the reason why we want that, I think, is because of what you're saying, Jace. If I can contain it to an external force,

in like on earth that we can attack that I don't have to do the hard yard of actually sacrificing. Oh, I agree. That's why I think this patch is debunks this idea. I'm not a, you know, a scholar or an apologetics guy, but it debunks this idea that you're born into sin because you have flesh and blood. I just think it debunks it. It,

It just, boom, that's gone. It's the powers behind it that will reveal itself as you get older and you have to pick a side. That's what he's saying.

It's the powers behind it. You have God's power when you're able to discern and say, you know what? God loves me. And then what has to happen? There has to be a surrender because that's what love is. And it's okay because God, it's okay to surrender yourself, even though it's not in our nature to want to surrender or to submit or to have a king or a Lord. But that's what we do because really it's a, it's a verse verse.

That led into this where remember when he was talking about the servants and masters and he says, your master is in heaven and there's no favoritism with him. And I wanted to squeeze this in. This was not some point that Paul just invented, because if you go back to Acts chapter 10, I think I saw, I found this last night and it was just eye popping to me. Peter said,

When it dawned on him that the Gentiles could be saved in Acts 10, that took miraculous things for him to realize it. Remember when he saw the big sheet and arise, kill, and eat? Oh, they could be Gentiles. Well, he has a little sermon here. I want to read it. And it eerily looks just like Ephesians 6 in Acts 10 in verse 34 says,

Peter began to speak and he says, I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. It's the same thing Paul said in leading to this spiritual battle, but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. He realized the power of God via the Holy Spirit for all people.

And so then he says, you know, the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning of Galilee, after the baptism of John preached. Now God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power.

And how he went around doing good and healing all who were under, look at this, the power of the devil.

Because God was with him. It's the same identical thing. And this is two chapters into the birth of the church. Realizing that God is for everybody. There's two powers out there. God's power and then the power of authorities, the devil, the spiritual forces of evil. And then you have a choice based on love of where you're going to surrender.

And then you saw the guy writing Ephesians that was raised in such a way he never would have even entertained the idea of a Gentile

being as good as a Jew. And yet now he's writing this book, which is pretty incredible. And it shows you the power of God. All right. We're out of time. Uh, lots more to discuss here. We hadn't even got to the armor yet, but, uh, maybe when you get into this idea of evil, it's a, it's a big, broad subject. So we'll, uh, we'll dive back into it next time. Thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes,

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