Yesterday’s Price Isn’t Today’s Price featuring Lena Waithe
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Hey, listeners. This week's episode of Vibe Check is a fusion of two live shows from this month. We're so excited to share them with you. The first two segments were at WBUR City Space in Boston, and our third segment was at the Tribeca Festival in New York City, featuring our very special guest and longtime friend, Lena Waithe.

Yes, it was like a big old family reunion in New York City. A barbecue that everyone could have said. It was so great. I mean, I would say New York was a family reunion. Boston was a happy hour because we had margaritas with a lot of listeners before the show. It was all delightful. And then in New York, the after party was sponsored by 818 Tequila, which I love. Yes. I got my life. It was great. It was all delicious. We loved it.

Well, beyond our drinking and kiki-ing with Lena Waithe, we also talked about dating and how not just complicated it is these days, but also how expensive it is and how it feels like we're all paying to play and play in many ways in which you think of that word too. So it was a lot for us to unpack live on stage as we all are navigating our own love lives.

It's pretty jarring to realize like the saying like yesterday's price isn't today's price also applies to dating like woof. Yeah. You know, damn. Inflation. It's a lot. It's a lot.

And listeners, if you missed those two shows and you like what you hear in this episode, there's still a chance for y'all to catch us live in the flesh. Our last live show of this summer will be in Los Angeles on July 14th at the Ford Theater, one of the most beautiful performance spaces in this city. Info for that will be in our show notes. We've got some special guest surprises coming up, too. It's going to be really fun. Join us there.

Until then, enjoy our conversation on Catch and Release and Summer Shading and Ambient Capitalism and a whole lot more with Lena Waithe as well. Enjoy. Make some noise and get hype right now. Let's go. Yes. Yes.

So y'all know why we're here. You know why we're here. So let's get down to business, folks. Vibe Check, the weekly podcast that gives you that awesome, awesome cultural analysis. They are here right now, and we are about to bring them out. So listen, everybody, give it up for Sam Sanders, Zach Stafford, and Saeed Jones. Vibe Check, everybody. ♪♪

Hi, this is so great. What did you do? Wait, wait, we got to do this thing. Oh, right. Wow, he got us hyped. Hello, my ladies, my Charles River cuties. Hello.

- What? - The river! - I'm Sam Sanders. - I'm Saeed Jones. - And I'm Zach Stafford, and you are here for Vibe Check. Welcome. - Oh my God. - Okay, move on then.

Wow. Before we begin, I want to say thank you to everyone that had Mexican food before this. Yeah. We saw it all over there. It was quite nice. I hope the tequila. The margaritas were good, right? I told you. I hope you're feeling alive. They were quite good. Interested in a Friday night. Yeah. And to the person who was like, do you want to do tequila shots as we were walking? Okay, later. I was like, damn. Later. Like, okay. But that is the vibe. That is the vibe. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Okay, well, I am so excited to finally be here with all of you. Girl, we're going to have a night, y'all. We're going to have a night. Yeah, yeah. I'm so ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so ready. Before we begin, who was here last year? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So these are some of your first time with us. I love it. All right. I love it. This is incredible. I hope you signed a waiver. That's going to be...

And we're going to be messy enough to deliver because tonight are two main conversations. We're going to take another listener advice question we've been saving for just the right occasion. Yeah. About summer shading. Have you heard of this?

Okay. I hadn't heard till Zach brought it up. All right. We got some good girls in the room and some demons. Okay. So we're going to talk about that. And we're going to talk about dating apps. Basically now increasingly dating apps and fucking apps. We're all adults here now. And if you weren't, you are now.

Basically, you know, charging users more and more basically to pay to date. And it's just happening across the board. So we're going to get into all of that as we just celebrate our messy summer. I just saw our producer Nora back there. Hi, Nora Richie. Hi, Nora Richie. Nora drove out here. Yes. With tote bags. Yeah.

Which, oh, we have tote bags now. Oh, yeah. All those people who were so nice as we signed stickers last year. Yeah. Thank you for hanging in there with us. But, of course, before we get into all the conversations, we got to check in with our girls. Sam, my love, I'm so happy we get to say this in person. I know. How are you doing? What's your vibe? I'm doing so great. The suit I'm wearing right now, for those who have been keeping tabs, this is a suit that was in the bag that I thought I had lost.

Y'all, I got it back. The gas! I got the bag back. Prayer works. Prayer works. Prayer works and Alaska Airlines works harder. Yeah.

Thanks to them. So I'm glad because I'm wearing my suit. I wore my fun shoes tonight for y'all, so I'm feeling very good. But my vibe this week, especially right now being in Boston, is nostalgia. So WBUR is where I got my start in radio in like 2009. I interned for a show called On Pointe.

And then after that, my first real adult job on the committee of folks that hired me was Margaret Lowe Smith, who runs this station. She's here right now. She's here. Thank you, Margaret. Thank you for being here. You made a good decision. Also, if you at all like Vibe Check, you need to support this member station. If you aren't members, before you leave tonight, become a member.

But yeah, my vibe is nostalgia, not just because of the B.U.R. of it all, but I also was able to have a nice run this morning, and I ran all the way to the Kennedy School at Harvard, where I went and got my master's degree. And I went by Pinocchio's at Pizza Spot, and I went by this park and that park. You were like, I recognize his apartment and his apartment. No, you know what I was doing. That alleyway and that alleyway. I just remembered...

I remembered every place in Harvard Yard where I had been drunk before. Oh, oh, oh, okay. And so I'm like, well, drunk and then. Drunk and then. But I just spent the morning when I stopped there on my run and I just stopped and said, huh, Sam.

You've come a long way. And that felt good. So yeah, a lot of nostalgia. And then my last little note of nostalgia. Listeners to the show, you know, last year around this time, I could not make the Boston show because my mother was dying. And I remember the outpouring of love from Vibe Check listeners here and there and everywhere over the last year. So I want to say thank you to everybody who

Deserved. Yeah, that's my vibe. That's my vibe. Yeah. Saeed, what's your vibe?

My vibe is good. It's good to be back. Listen, last year, Zach and I hadn't even left the building before we agreed that we wanted to come back. Yeah. Thank you. That was our very first live event. And of course, to be here now all together, it's really, really special. But my vibe is so good, I think I'm going to break some news. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. I know this is. I'm so excited for you guys to hear it. Boston, what do you feel about having me as a neighbor for a year? Yeah.

That's something you would be into? Woo, woo, woo. That is exactly what you want to hear. Yes, it is. Side was like, should I say it? I was like, girl, if you don't, I think someone will fight you in the street when you walk down the street. The lovely folks at Harvard Medical School have invited me to be an artist in residence for one year. Yeah!

They have a master of science degree program in media, health, and medicine. And so I'll be mentoring. In the fall, I'll be teaching a class on memoir writing at Harvard.

Wait. Can the audience sneak into your class? Huh? Can the audience sneak into your class? I guess so. You know, okay. You know, I'm not in the admissions department. You know, we'll see what we can do. But no, I'm so excited. They know that this has been going, like, privately in the works since October. And it's just, you know, it's really incredible when you get to the point in your life where you get to...

dreams that you hadn't really considered wanting to take on. I'm a state school boy, a public school kid, you know, and...

There have been times in my life where I was just like, oh, I'm not good enough. I'm not smart. I don't have that kind of pedigree. And I'm proud of everything I've accomplished. But I don't know. It's just really, you know, at a time when so much is going on, you know, that is dispiriting to have an opportunity, first of all, to teach, but just to be reminded that we still have a few more dreams left. Yes. I'm excited. Yes.

Said has been very open with us about his teaching experience right now. He's doing some coursework at a different school.

You're a teacher who cares about your kids. I do. I do like teaching. You care about your students. I genuinely enjoy it. You're into it. You believe in it. I'm going to come sneak in a class or two. Come hang. Come hang. And listen, no shade Boston, but I think y'all need me. I think you... I think I have some work to do. I have some work to do. So I'm so excited. So stay tuned. More on that soon. But Zach, how are you doing? What's your vibe? So I had one vibe when I walked in today. I'm sorry.

but it shifted because something has happened that has never happened in the history of Vibe Check. I have the same vibe as Sam. Okay.

And it's nostalgic. Wow. And when you said it, I was like, damn it. It's okay. You can share it. You can share it. And then I was sitting here listening to Saeed talk, and I was like, what's a synonym for the nostalgic? What's a synonym for the nostalgic? I was like, what is it? I can't land anywhere, so I'm nostalgic. Welcome. We love it. It's fine. Yeah, but I'm nostalgic for different reasons. I didn't go to school here, but when I was in college, I would visit here all the time because my childhood best friend lived here, and she still lives here, and she's here today. Ah!

Raise your hand. Raise your hand. I told her she doesn't have to disclose if she doesn't want to. But what's amazing is I'm going to use a story about us to get us into today's episode. Are you guys ready for this?

Okay, so this friend of mine has been my friend since we were five-ish. Five years old? Yeah, since we were five years old. I haven't even been my own friend since I was five years old. It's a long friendship, long friendship. But when we were in high school, she was my prom date. I wasn't straight. I want a photo on this screen. You want a photo? I want a photo. Oh, I should have done that. That would have been so funny. We'll put it on the...

Oh my God. The Patreon. I felt it coming. A disturbance in the force. So as you would assume, having a best friend for that long, she would be the first person I told I was gay. But I never had like a big coming out moment. We went to Panera Bread one day after school. Where magic happens. Magic happens in Panera. And we split the cinnamon raisin. I don't know why you look at it over here like I know. I don't know. One of those.

They had this very famous cinnamon bagel, and we split it. And over the bagel, we were discussing how this man named Daniel at school came back from the summer hot. It was shocking. He was so fine. Out of nowhere. And he was not fine before. Like, noticeably not fine. And then became fine-fine. So she was talking about how she was attracted to him, how he was so handsome. And I was like, I know, I'm attracted to him too. And I kind of came out that way. And she didn't even miss a beat. She just kept, I think, spreading the cream cheese on her bagel.

Which was a sign of love, I think. She was like, I've known you since we were five. Yeah, she's like, five years old. Girl, not a shocker. So why I tell that story is we then competed, in my mind, to steal his heart. What?

To what, you said? To steal his heart. I was like, I'm going to make him mine. And I think she said it as a joke in passing. I took it seriously because I'm me. We began this dance. We got closer with him. He joined our friend group. Come to find out he is queer now and interested. Did you kiss him? He was interested in me. So that's what we're going to get to. So I won.

Moral of the story, I won. And he and I talked in the school parking lot one day, and he's like, I'd love to take you to dinner. He worked at Starbucks, so he made that good coin for high school. So he asked me on a date, and because I wasn't really out, the idea of going on said date felt like a really concrete moment. Oh, you have told me about this. Thank you. Thank you. I have. Syed's one of my oldest friends, so I'm assuming I've told you the story. Okay.

So he would keep asking me out, and I kept saying, no, maybe later, maybe later, maybe later. I kept putting him on the back burner. I would entertain him. We would text, but we never actually did that big thing, which was very intimate for me, and rightfully so. I lived in Tennessee. I was worried about us being in public. It was valid. You were edging in to see if he would be hotter the longer you kept making him. 1,000%, yeah. Come back next summer. Withholding is hot sometimes, yeah.

But the thing I learned about withholding at the ripe age of 18 is that if you withhold for too long, you will lose that man. And prom came around. And as I mentioned, my friend who's here tonight was my prom date. And we go to prom. And after prom, we didn't go to all the other parties people went to. We went to a gay bar because it was 18 plus in Nashville. And I walk into this gay bar and guess who I see? I'm sure it was Connection.

is Daniel. Wow. My heart broke immediately because he was on the dance floor with another man making out. You waited too long. I waited too long. And the real trauma with this, the boy he was kissing looked like my twin. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

There are so many levels. I'm going to say, though, it all worked out perfectly because had you ended up down that path, we maybe wouldn't have had you here. That's, listen, I, and this is not the point of today's conversation. I love thinking about crossroad moments. Moments in your life where you look down two paths and the decision you make will drastically change it. And you're like, if that dick had curved to the left. If it had curved to the left. Yes, ma'am. I never, I...

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You're not sorry. You put me in front of the audience. I never saw it, so I don't know which one it is.

You miss out when you withhold, guys. So, yeah, so nothing ever happened. He dated that guy, and we've never spoken since. But it brought me to Vibe Check, so I won, I guess, in the end. You won. We'll take it. A win is a win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a journey. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. So that story was told to you not out of narcissism, but out of teeing up our next conversation, which I'm ready to dive into. Are you girls ready? Let's go. Let's do it.

So our first topic today is going to be about summer shading and the idea of dating and this new trend we're seeing emerge in the dating world and what we should be training you guys to understand. So before we get to the real part of this question or us breaking it down, I want to give some backstories. So a few weeks ago we were doing the advice episode. We had two questions and this was supposed to be one of them.

We never got to there because we just were having too much fun with the other question. The petty question was so good. The petty question. It overtook our lives. It's overtaken our social media. Literally right before we came out, someone was messaging me on Instagram. About the petty? I was like, I cannot talk about bees. Listen.

Buzz, buzz. So how that came up, or this conversation came up, is that as we were prepping for Petty, I was at drinks with an old friend. I asked him how his dating life is going, and he said, well, it's stopping now because summer's beginning, and I'm deleting my hinge, and I'm getting back on Grindr. And I was like, what? Explain that to me.

me. And he's like, what's the point of going on dates when everyone's too busy to get serious with you? So I should just go back on the hookup apps and have summer fun.

Okay, let's pause for a second. Raise your hand if this concept is something you're even vaguely familiar with before tonight. Summer shading. Okay. I had heard of it. And to define it. How would you define summer shading? Wait, before we define it, like last year, I brought a TikTok to help us understand. I will warn you, this TikTok doesn't use the phrase summer shading, but it uses something that is a replacement that I love. Maybe even better. Yeah, maybe better. I haven't seen it yet. So let's play that clip.

So recently my dating strategy has just been catch and release. We're getting guys, we're throwing them back in the water. There are fish everywhere. That's just how I live my life. And if you don't like dating like that, that's fine. Get off the boat. But if you're on the boat with me catching and releasing, the advice my mom gave us, my mom is head fisherman on this boat analogy. She said, you've got to throw a lot.

bait in the water. She said that a few months ago. And then yesterday I had the epiphany. Why have one fishing line when you could have two or three or even more than that? But that might get a little crazy. We're still talking about dating here if you're lost, which I am. Catching and releasing multiple lines in the water, throwing out a lot of bait.

I think that's a fair dating strategy. And if you're going to hop in the comments and call me a whore, I don't care. Summer 2023, we're going fishing. I like her. Yes. Wow. Amazing. I just hear that TikTok and I'm like, oh my God, that's so expensive. And we're going to get into that trauma for you, Sam. Catch and release. I like her spirit. Right? And guess what? I love her spirit. But guess how many likes that video has? How many? 22. That's all? How did I find it? 22? That's it?

I thought you were going to say like 22,000. Her pacing was good. It was good script, good copy. I'm going to DM her after this and be like, let me produce you. Bro, this is incredible. 22 likes and all of them were Sagittarius's. Yes. So as you see, this is where I want to go with our conversation today about tactics around dating. What's it like not to hold on to one fish and just eat your dinner with that one, but to throw them back and forth in and out and to maybe put some in an ice bucket for a while. So Sam Sanders, Sam Sanders.

Define for me what you think summer shading is. And this is the thing, and this is where I kind of have the beef. Catch and release. Yeah, go ahead. Do it. Get out there. Have fun. Summer shading is a slightly different meaning of summer dating. Summer shading says, I've kind of been seeing someone for a little bit. We didn't get serious, but it's about to be summer, and I want to be out there. So I'm going to casually ghost you or shade you so I can be out there.

So catch and release, go for it. Summer shading, grow up and communicate. Yes. Grow up and communicate. Yes. So that's my first beef. Okay. I think a lot of times we allow a slang term or vernacular like summer shading to take the place of a conversation. Or technology. Exactly. And so what I bet...

people who are fans of summer shading, what they do is they don't tell the person that they're kind of seeing, I'm about to summer shade you. Right. They text their friends and say, girl, I summer shaded him. Then they just ghost whoever. Yeah. I hate that. It,

It definitely sounds... I hate that. You would never say that to someone. You'd never say, I'm going to summer shade you now. Yeah. Right? You're not going to do that. But it's definitely what I call group text braggadocio. Yes. You're saying it to your friends. And this is the thing. I don't like it if summer shading becomes a way in which we can continue to not communicate effectively with intimate partners. But they're not your intimate partners. You are intimate. Okay, just because you have sex, I mean, I guess it's...

Yes, it does. Depends on how you define. That is fine. My church lady, that is true. We all getting free tonight. I'm really like... Yeah. But no, it's like kind of...

I guess let's start there, though. How do we define that moment of having hard conversations with someone? Is it the first date? Is it date two? Is it date four? Where do you go? I'll tell you how I do it, because I'm in it right now. By the way, this was my way of getting Sam to talk about dating tonight, about his own life. And I told him, we can talk about this as long as we name no geographic areas, we name no apps, we name no men. Evergreen. Evergreen.

Evergreen and no details. But I will say this, and I should honestly start sending half of my checks to my therapist, Jonathan, because every time I give you guys good life advice, Jonathan gave it to me. We love Jonathan. God bless Jonathan. But when I was getting back into the world of dating after my really hard breakup last year, I was like, Jonathan, I don't know what to expect on these dates. I don't know what to say I'm ready for on these dates. I don't know how to navigate it. And he was like, it's okay to say that you don't know.

And so he offered me two ways to talk about it early on. If someone on a date is like, Sam, I like this. I want to do X, Y, Z. I'm always allowed to say, I'm just not available for that right now. So that's the first. Which is true. It's true. And the second thing, if you're out on a date and you don't know what to expect or what you want, you're allowed to say, you know, I'm trying to get back out there, but I'm just all over the place right now. And I'm not sure what I want. Saying that.

It's so much nicer than summer fucking shading. I'm sorry. And crucially, with that second point in particular, because I think people do say, hey, you know, I'm all over the place. But they say that after they've been silent. There you go. After they get caught. And you're like, oh, I'm so sorry. Things have been so... You know what I mean? It's very different if you say that in a proactive... I'm like...

Jonathan says to tell you. Wait, so do you end every date that way? Because, no, I... Not to put you on the spot, sorry. Not all dates are the same way, Sam. Not all dates are the same way. Sorry.

T, T, T, T, T, T. But no, like I do in my mind make a note to myself to say, all right, how can I leave this interaction and be as honest as feels right about what might be next? I will also say, you know, significantly, like part of the reason that summer is, you know, people do travel. Oh, it's pride month. Oh, I'm going to do that. I also think there's a way to say, you know, and I don't,

I don't know if I would say it like when you're getting the check at dinner or like the morning after or whatever, but maybe like the follow-ups like, hey, that was so much fun. I actually got a lot going on this summer, but I would love to see you when I get back. And only if you mean it, you know what I mean? But like instead of setting someone up when they're like, so hey, there's this great concert next week. You know, if you can preempt it and be like, I'm actually going to be kind of, but like maybe like post-4th July. And like this helps avoid what I call...

The Casper effect, when you're the friendly ghost, it's still ghosting. There are a lot of friendly ghosts. Oh, I love that. They'll do the thing where it's like,

At first, they text you back a day later. Then they text you back a week later. Then they just kind of cast you out. Wait, can I share something? Because I know I'm not single. Are you a Casper? Oh, my God. Big Casper energy. Huge. And we'll see you out and be like, oh, it's so good to see you. Lunch tomorrow? Oh, no. I know. I have my own. I know that no one believes this, but I have my own toxic traits. No, never. Not baby girl. Not baby girl. Sam's been calling me baby girl because I guess. My friends will text me and be like,

All of y'all are cute, but Zach knows how to pose for photos. She's baby girl. She's baby girl. She's got it. So now I call him baby girl. Sometimes, some things you're born with. The other thing about, the other thing with Casper's though, it's like the entire time, they're watching all of your Instagram stories. And liking, liking, liking, liking. Watching all your Instagram stories. Sociopaths. Yeah. Uh-huh.

But what I like about this is that when I was dating a dear friend of mine said to me, who was getting married and he was 10 years older, he said, at the end of every date, you should have three things that you should know immediately. One, I like you. I want to see you again. Or two, I like you, but we would be good friends. Or lastly, three...

This was a great time. This was wonderful. We don't need to do this again and release them. How do you say that? He said it very directly. He's a very direct man. And he did that for every date for a year. And I think he went on 100 dates. Baby, that is it. It's not a job, an internship. It's incredible. I was like, how do you manage this in New York City? And I think you could only do that in New York. That's a WBUR internship. Internship upstairs. And at the end of this kind of way of being through his love life, he met his now husband.

Wow. And they have the same exact birthday. It's wild. This is my thing, though. It's like I could never do 100 dates because I'm not going to do an IHOP date. I want a good meal. And I want a few good cocktails. And so increasingly, I have to make sure the guy meets the bar for a first date. Because I'm going Dutch. No man is going to pay for me. If I don't like you, I'd pay.

It's weird, yeah. I don't know why I'm telling you all this. Yes, and I haven't done this in years. Craig's here. Craig's been around forever. Craig is here. Craig is here. Craig is here. We love Craig. I'm taking the call of Craig Julius because he's our bodyguard. Yeah, he's our bodyguard. He's so muscular. Here's my thing. So two things that I do feel, and I'm going to be honest because I'm a Sagittarius. I find men very unimpressive. Yeah.

At best, they're social impediments. You know what I mean? Wow. Roadblocks to growth. Wow. With dicks attached. Like, you know, so... So, like, when you're like... How many times can we say dick tonight? Well, let's see. Yeah. Let's see. So that's what, like, summertime shading, I'm like, baby, I just call that life. But the two things that I do feel are important, and I do stay true to this. One...

Catch and release, summertime, all of it, I think is truly fine. It's your life. And this is also a conversation about consent. And I believe in transparent communication. You should be doing nothing out of obligation, nothing out of guilt, to be clear, you know?

But also, listen, let them go, but don't circle back come September. Well, this is the thing. Don't have your feelings hurt, you know, or have your feelings hurt, but acknowledge that that's their right as well. Well, and what I love about the I'm not available for this right now, it leaves the door open kindly. True. I can circle back in the fall. Yeah. Because I'm available in the fall. What?

Right? That's true. Yeah. But this is the second thing. And I do think this is important. And I don't see people talk about this enough. I think you need to envision or meditate on the kind of person and the kind of interaction that you would be willing. You would be willing to change your plan. I'll take it a step further. Jonathan said...

Write down a list of what you want in your partner. Yes. Write it down. I still owe him that list. I have some angst about writing it down because what will I write down? Because Jonathan says don't edit it either. It's difficult. Don't edit it.

But yeah, write it down. I love that. Yeah, say what you want to yourself. We only have a few more minutes for this segment. But in those few minutes, I'd love to turn the tables and hear your thoughts on how do you deal with being summer shaded? How do we navigate that? Because I'm a Pisces. And while I do it onto others, I cannot take it onto myself. So I was a mess. Every time you see me post a photo...

At least the last few months. When I've posted the photo looking a little foddy, I was responding to some kind of summer shade. Say it. Say it. Wow. Oh, you don't want me? Instagram this. Fuck you. Let them know. Let them know. No, I love that. I love that question. No one belongs to me. Yeah. My feelings are mine. They are intensely mine, but they are personally mine.

No one belongs to me just because I feel that I want them in my life in a way that they may not. And that's not just romantic. And the second thing, though, I would say is, and I've said this many times before, and I know y'all know this, anything less than a hell yes is a no. You know what I mean? Particularly when it comes to dating. I think if you have to guess.

If you so much as to wonder, does he, does she, do they, can you read this text? What's the, uh-uh, uh-uh. I think you've already lost the plot. That's what I thought. I feel the exact same way. Yes, clap for that. Someone clap for that. It's funny. On this same topic, you know, we were at Pride last week and we saw Kylie. It was very fun. But I parked my car like a mile and a half away. I was like, Kylie who? Kylie Minogue. Kylie Minogue.

I parked my car like a mile and a half away because I didn't want to develop traffic. Another thing, if you are summer shaded, what you have to keep in mind and be nice about it, you also don't know what people are going through or what they're experiencing. So you don't know why they shaded you. I was walking to Pride to meet Zach and I randomly saw this guy that I had briefly dated like a year and a half ago and he shaded me. And I was so mad about it. But I saw him walking to Pride with his partner.

And they looked so happy together. And I said, I'm glad you didn't call me back. I'm happy for you. That's a blessing there. It's a blessing, right? So we also have to allow grace and kindness to

two people who are shading us because you don't know their journey or where they're going and the only hope is that you know the next time they're kinder but this guy I'm not mad he shaded me he looked so happy I saw him like in passing and he didn't say hi because the man was there but he looked at me I looked at him and it was like touche touche I love that because you know my therapist Caleb not Jonathan

Once I went to him with similar issues and I was really upset I couldn't change the mind of someone else. And he said, Zach, let me tell you something. You're not that important. And it hit me in the face. And what he walked me through was that... Gay therapists will get you the fuck together, won't they? Gay therapists will get you together.

Really will. And they charge double. They could. Well, it's just in these situations where I find myself not able to decipher someone else's motives or lack of communication or whatever, I think to myself, it's probably not about me. I'm not that important in their life. We've had such a shallow relationship. So it's fine to catch and release. It's so interesting because I do think it's a function of

late capitalism and technology in many ways. But I also wonder if the summertime shading, not the catch and release, which feels direct and equitable, but this kind of... Is this narcissistic idea... Do you think the other person's just going to fall to pieces if you say, actually, you know, I'm kind of... I think that's part of it. You get it in your head that to just say it to them leads to some dramatic, devastating blowout, and you don't want the drama.

Those people were like, I hate drama. I'm like, you're probably a real toxic person. Yeah. Well, and also... Exactly, exactly. The reason I bristle at phrases like summer shading is because they keep us from being clear and specific. The purpose of language is specificity and connection. Yes. That's it. So if the language you're using doesn't specifically connect you with other people, find better language. There's just better language than summer shading. I love that. Anywho. Amen. Well...

We're so mature. Oh. Today. Today. Today. Right now. Don't go to the after party. You said it and my brain couldn't. Within the bubble of these last three minutes. We got there. Well, with that, we're going to a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

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So as a special treat for this live taping, we're going to expand on segment one. In segment two, so this conversation about summer shading and dating and how to communicate with partners or non-partners, it took a whole new meaning for me when I began to Google the word summer shading. The Huffington Post claims that the term itself was actually coined by a dating app called Wingman.

A dating app made this word. Marketing. Think about that. Which, honestly, is a good name for a dating app. Yeah. And so it just got me thinking, like, this app has a perverse incentive in making a term like that. Because they want to keep you on the app, trying more and more new people, and paying more money to be there for as long as possible. And an app like Wingman just loves that. And so I wanted to talk about that. Okay.

Saeed, you said something very, very powerful. You said a lot of human interaction these days and not just dating, it has become, quote, pay to play. Yeah. Talk about that. And we're going to talk more about the apps and everything. Because I was shocked, for example, when you said that some of these apps, what was it, $24? Oh, yeah. I'm on every app you can think of. A lot of them now charged by the week.

I didn't know that. And sometimes for the weekly, it's like $23. $23 a week? And I'm paying for half a dinner. Yeah. And I'm trying to look good. We're going to have to watch a GoFundMe. And I get the fancy deodorant when I go on a date. Yeah.

Yeah, I was really surprised because I thought when we were talking about it, I thought it was like, oh, $3.99 a month or something, which is not nothing. But it's like you brought up that this pay-to-play, it's not just 80, it's like a lot of human interaction these days. Yeah, and again, technology, late capitalism. So it's Pride Month. So let's use this for one example. Something that

really landed with me early in the pandemic, you know, during lockdown in particular, was that I was like, oh, wow, so much of my understanding of queer community is location-based.

And now because I'm in my apartment and I can't go to the parties, I can't go to the drag shows, I can't go to the places that I didn't realize how strongly I'd come to associate with. I'm with my people. I'm with my girls. You know, I felt that I was suddenly cut off from what I would say is a good 50% in terms of like queer physicality. Does that make sense? You have to pay to be in those places.

And, you know, particularly as like three cisgender gay men, right? You know, it's summertime. So, you know, are you going to Provincetown, baby? You know, whose house are you staying at? Fire Island? Oh, we're going to Mexico City. You know, and my therapist, a gay man of color, would talk about, this is a class issue I'm aware of, right? But he was like, frankly, it's expensive.

Yeah, yeah.

To your point of the economy of being gay, which is how I think of it, is that there is a way in which it forces the queer community, specifically gay cis men, to stratify themselves by being able to travel, do certain things, go to certain bars on certain islands. We're talking about this while we're right across the water from Provincetown, which is incredibly expensive.

No one can afford a house there anymore. When I think of queer utopias, they should be accessible. They should be feasible for you to get to, but they're not. They're getting less and less, and it's all about spending more money. I want to talk specifically more about the ways in which dating apps have monetized

the act of new human interaction. And there's no better person to pose this kind of question to than Zach Stafford, who used to run Grindr. You were saying earlier...

All of these apps are gamifying interaction and monetizing it. Gamify. Gamify. What do you mean by that? Some of you may know this. I used to work at Grindr. I was the chief content officer. How I got that job was I thought I was going to be a Saeed in Sam, actually. I thought I was going to go to do my graduate work, and I got into school, and I was studying geolocative technologies and sex. I love that this is happening right now. Keep going. I'm the auntie who takes pictures everywhere. Very auntie.

And post them immediately. Yeah. But, so I was obsessed with Grindr and the fact that, like, do you all know that the technology you're using on these dating apps, this GPS technology, is missiles technology. This is, GPS was used for weapons. Like, this is what it originally was being used for. And then we made it social. That's dark. Fusing Facebook into all this stuff. Yes, it's very dark. I don't know.

And so, of course, with taking all that darkness and doing all this research, and I would use Grindr for my reporting, I got a job at Grindr, because why not? Let's get the tech money. And while I was there, I learned really quickly through talking to academics that game theory was the best way to understand dating apps. Swiping is a game, and your brain releases certain chemicals that make you feel good as you're swiping. And when you do match, it makes a certain sound that they test to make your endorphins jump. That's also why each app has a specific, like,

or scruff notification. And that's all very similar to playing a video game. And while that's really fun for if you're just playing a video game, we're not playing video games. You're dealing with other people.

of people's lives. And also what was really wild for me at Grindr was how we designed that UX, the app landscape, directly connected to how gay men took pictures of themselves. So like the torso is a response to the squares that you see in Grindr. So we were making people literally chop their heads off and discombobulate themselves. Jericho Brown has a great poem. I think it's in the New Testament about the torso.

Yeah, it's fascinating how we live in a culture of torsos and the commodification of the torsos and all of that. Beyond Grindr, we know, and I can't confirm this, but rumor is that apps like Bumble have fake hot accounts for you. I've had fake people talking about these apps, I swear to you. I swear to you, I'm like, you're too cute to talk that weird. And it's like, you are a bot. Yeah.

No, they are bots. You're a bot. And they use it and it's a way to make you, when you sign up for the next tier, they populate hotter people. Well, it works. To make you think that money correlates to... And to be clear, because we should lay this out because I don't know if everyone... So, okay. So there was a time period when if you were on Hinge, if you were on Grindr and you went to the nearby feature, basically, you would see...

Everyone in that radius who was on the app. You were seeing something akin to reality. And now we've entered a phase where there are two different types of paywalls. One, you might see a limited number. There are 10 queer people who are on this app living on your block, but because you're not paying this money, you only see five.

And then another manifestation that you only see like there's certain types of profiles, whether it's like an algorithm or you're not paying enough to see the most attractive people. They will tell you on a lot of these apps that if you pay more, you'll be seen by more people. So they bump you up. Which is an old practice. Who here has watched the Ashley Madison documentary? Yeah.

It was really good. I started to complain. You were like, it was too much. It's a lot. Prayer's up for people. But Frozen Couple was really cute. But Ashley Madison is a website that launched in 2001. They pioneered the affair of the dot-com boom. You could sign up for a profile and find someone who also wanted to have an affair. And their whole thesis was...

People want to have affairs not to ruin their marriages, but just to have a little side quest, you know, and then come back and love their wives more. I love that because it's more game language. Yes, they use that language too. And then how they really built this up is women paid nothing, men paid everything, and they gave them credits. And the men in the documentary talk about being addicted to sending these messages. And then when you would run out, your credit card was already on file, so you'd refill it. And that's just like playing a slot machine at the end of the day. Yeah.

You know, we've talked about the apps that we pay for. Every dating app, gay, straight, whatever. They want you to pay money and they want you to stay on there as long as possible. But I want to talk about the Instagram of it all because a lot of times we will think that Instagram is free, but it's not really free. And I'll tell you why I think this. For starters...

We are urged to perform for Instagram. So we perform vacation. We perform leisure. We perform restaurant. Spending money to do so. So every time we take a really good photo on Main, we spent money to get the photo. And increasingly, the meet-cutes of internet will happen not on the dating apps. It'll happen in the Instagram DMs. You know this. You know this. So in this weird and subtle stealth way, Instagram has become a dating app.

and we're paying for it without knowing it.

And I want to talk about that because I'm not sure how to feel about it. I love Instagram. Part of what really hits me, you know, the three of us are millennials. And so our relationship to technology feels like kind of once in a century, right? Where we experienced the inception of a lot of these forms of technology. And we're also in real time seeing not just degradation, but, you know, it's toxifying and shitification. Yeah. The term some reporters. And so it's really wild because we're,

To use a queer lens, you know, Louisville, Texas, I remember how powerful it felt when I found the chat rooms on gay.com. And in particular, I remember when I found out I was going to Western Kentucky University for college and I was like, oh my God, how have I found a place more rural than Louisville, Texas? And then I remember I saw Bowling Green, Kentucky had a gay.com chat room.

And I was like, okay, so there's something there. And it wasn't just sex. It was community. There was a sense of infrastructure to support this really important cultural experience. So just to move from that, and that would have been 2004, basically, to 20 years later. And it's like, don't trust it. It's a trap. You're paying for it in ways that you don't even know. It's wild. And then with Instagram, you pay to get the great photos. But you also are told what to buy.

Yes. The pants I was wearing at the Mexican restaurant, Instagram told me to buy them. Baby, those ads have clocked me. It worked. But they look good. It worked. Yeah, they do look good. Thank you. They do look good. It works sometimes. Capitalism. Capitalism. What are your Insta, et cetera, thoughts, Zach? Oh, my God. Well, my big hot take about Instagram is that I'm a Grindr scholar. And I say that as a joke, but also...

He is. I worked there. I built a lot of the tech there or helped build a lot of the tech there that now exists and I'm sorry. The best thing I did do, we banned racism however we could define it. So if you use a racist term, an ableist term, you're immediately kicked off for a while. And also back in the day on Grindr,

Yes. I remember that. And I took it down. I was like, no, thank you. And then I released an ad called Kinder. Grinder Kinder. And it was our users, some of them famous, talking about how horrible the app was for them. And I thought it was really important for me to do because as black men on these apps, we are treated horribly.

And people say the wildest thing, which brings back to the earlier point of how we aren't treated with any dignity on these apps anymore. Whether it's they're forcing us to pay for them all the time, there's all these microtransactions, your body's being chopped up or you have to edit it to be feeling desirable or you're being gamified. It's all not personable at all anymore. And Instagram launched after Grindr and if anyone here has Grindr, if you open up Grindr right now, then open up your Instagram grid, you'll see that they look the same. And that's...

That was by design because they follow the same history of technological advancement. It feels so, you know, as we talk about like AI and everywhere that is trying, that scam is trying to take us. I mean, it's so clear that we cannot technologize our way out of human tendency and behavior because humans develop the technology. Humans are humans. Yeah, and I'm trying to, I'll post it on the Patreon, the book. Pronounce Patreon, Zayin. Zayin.

It's an anthology of essays about black queer theory edited by E. Patrick Johnson, but there's an essay about Boys Town. And it points out how the racism and transphobia in Boys Town is directly mirrored in the apps. And so it's like the digital communities mirroring the underground community. And that's why we should talk about these things with more fierceness because why I am so passionate about talking about geolocative apps like Grindr is that they are, when they launched...

you suddenly were living a life simultaneously as you're walking down the street. There's a digital you being treated in its own world, with its own rules, with its own pains and hurts, as you are also moving through another world. And you have to navigate both of those things at the same time. And we for years have taken it very casually. We've been like, oh, it's just online. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But a lot of research shows that, does anyone here play those sim-like games where you get to be an avatar and live out a life?

Kim Kardashian, Hollywood. It was a long time ago. I was in there for a minute. Did you play it? Oh, Sight in 2014 was in there. How much money did she get from you? I wasn't paying money yet. I wasn't paying money yet. But what we've learned from that research, and I haven't read the research in years, is that they were studying folks who face forms of violence on these apps, where someone came up and beat them or did various other things they won't get into, not to bring the mood down, but people were showing similar mental characteristics of someone that was physically going through that.

Because the brain couldn't tell the difference. And they were feeling really depressed. They were feeling really sad. I remember when I was on AOL chat in high school, when my prom date was my prom date, I would go in the chat rooms and talk to men. And when I got rejected there, it hurt just as much as it hurt when I was in a bar and it happened. So I think what you're trying to push us to, Sam, is that there's a physicalness that's happening on these apps. And we are facing more and more pain by being kind of stripped by it.

every day, compartmentalizing ourselves. I love that because I want to close this segment with just something a little practical to help us navigate this. I think a lot of times the easiest answer is to say, well, just opt out of these late capitalistic apps and platforms, whatever. You can't opt out. It's one of my favorite friendships I've developed on social media platforms. I live my work life on these platforms. I'm going to be here. And so for me, I think the question I want to close with for us is like,

Like given these problems we've laid out with app-based dating, with app-based life, what is like one fix or one help or one solve you incorporate in your lives? My thing, and I've mentioned this on the show, I've been doing screen time a lot more to monitor my time on the phone. And I did a one-day Instagram fast last week, just one day. And it was magical.

I loved it. But do y'all have things that just help you navigate this world? Yeah. I mean, you know, I talked about this. I went through a period, really 2016 to 2017.

18, 2019, where I was really struggling with a lot of the queer elite spaces, the fun places, places that people were telling me I was so lucky to be in. I was miserable. And it was bringing up a lot of like body shame and like race. You know, I just, I was the only one after fighting so long not to be the only one. And so I would drink so much to navigate. And it often meant that I would get mean. I would get mean. And so I think that,

I was able to, and it took years to find my way out of that particular kind of well, and it came out of therapy. And frankly, conversations with trusted friends about how they felt in those spaces. No one conversation did it, but it was like, you kind of do need to get out of your own head because that's the problem. You begin to bully yourself. And so I would say if that was true in me in terms of navigating these physical spaces that were joyous and

and gnarly, essential and difficult. That can be true in digital spaces. I think we need to talk, not just bragging about the, I'm going to do the summer shading, but like, how do you feel? How's the online dating? Have you had some good experience? You know, like with, you know, your group texts with your girls, like that,

I think is as valid a conversation as how did that date at the coffee shop go last week? I love that. Something I know about myself is that if I Instagram something live from a place, I'm not having a good time. Mm-hmm.

I'm trying to make it fun. I'm trying to make it interesting. And whenever I see myself not only pulling out my phone, because I'll do that if I'm happy because I want a picture with you guys. But if I find myself needing to put it out there. You're sitting there thinking of a caption. Exactly. A caption or whatever. I have to ask myself, and I do this every time, like, what are you trying to run away from right now?

now what about in this moment do you feel uncomfortable with or you're not liking and what can you do instead of posting this photo and that's why a lot of times on my instagram i post most things the next day because i sit on it and i look at it and i think like do i need to share this what because it's usually another i have other ambitions in that moment for sharing that aren't things i'm probably that proud of and i need to deal with that and then post later uh

It's also better for safety. Do not post on social media while you are still at a place. I posted being at the Renaissance movie premiere. Not premiere, but like a screening. I was like, you're at the premiere? I was out of the mirror. But I posted as I was walking in to go see the Renaissance movie, people walking in wearing silver. And I walk out of the movie with Brandon and a really wonderful fan yells across the mall, like,

I was hoping I'd see you. Because she knew I was there. And she was lovely. All of our bands are nice and lovely. But yeah, you got to be careful. Don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. But it's important because, again, the millennial, like, we entered the internet and it was all good. We used to put our phone number and address on Facebook. Remember that? It's going to bring democracy. My address was on Facebook. Yeah.

Wait, remember, who here remembers when you used to be able to search Facebook by someone's phone number? Hello. And you were drunk the night before and you're like, who is this person? And you look it up and you're like, ooh, that's cute. You are a mess. I miss those days. I think we just have to own it, but the internet really was sold to an entire generation of people as this is the best thing ever. It's going to make everything better. And we weren't taught about safety, guardrails, and so that required

requires like rewiring our relationship I think you're so right it's not about wholesale checking out it's just like I just take a break in real life yes yeah I think what we're saying to close this segment and this is a phrase that I think is kind of the answer to everything the answer here is two words touch grass

Go the fuck outside. I'll take it. Leave your phone inside. I'll take it. And touch grass. That's fair. Also, my word of advice is, and I've had to untrain myself, is when you meet someone, you don't need to go online and find out every single thing about them. Unless they're just too hot to function. No, no. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Take them out to dinner. Take them to coffee. Get to know them real life. Touch grass with them. Yeah, touch grass with them. And then you have, because everyone has one. It's a different group text. Your FBI friend do the work for you. Okay.

Yeah, call me. Wait, will you be my FBI friend? No, I'm not good at it. Oh, I'm really good. I have some consults. All right, all right.

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I'm so, so excited about this guest coming because as you all know, every guest on Vibe Check, one of us is friends with them. And I don't know if we've made that that explicit yet, but that's how we began doing guesting. So when Roxane Gay is on, she's a friend of Saeed's. When Jay Wortham is on, she's a dear friend of mine and so on and so forth. Court Jefferson knew all of us. So we like to stay true to that. And tonight, Lena Waithe is one of those friends.

And each of us has a very special, unique relationship with Lena. It's an amazing time to have Lena on. It's Pride Month. And I'm just excited to hear how my sisters here have been friends with Lena and what stories we can all share with Lena. So join me in welcoming Lena Waithe to the stage. My plate tells you.

Happy Pride. Hi, Happy Pride. Can you still say that? Yeah. Y'all should say it louder. She said Happy Pride. Happy Pride. Damn it. Thank you. Hey, y'all. Hi, honey. It's so good to have you. It's so good to have you. I'm happy to be here. Look at your beautiful faces. Looking good, smelling good. Trying. All of it. You smell so good, actually. It's like really nice. So...

I have two questions for you to start. It's going to be a free-for-all, but I want to start with some audio. Okay. And I'm going to tell you what audio I'm going to use. Listeners, if you were listening to It's Been a Minute from way back at the start, you might recall, thank you, Lena Waithe was, I want to say, the second long-form interview I ever did. In one week, I taped with Lakeith Stanfield, and then on a Saturday morning, I taped with Lena Waithe.

who was riding high. You started making the shy. I think you'd gotten the Emmy at that point for Master of None. Oh, no. Yeah. By the way. You were still very much ascending. And I'll never forget, I was there on a Saturday morning. It was me and the security guard and the engineer. And Lena, you came that morning by yourself. And the security guard in the parking lot sees Lena Park and is like,

And who are you? And are you supposed to be here? And I see it happen and I'm like, let her in! Let her in! And then you get in and I'll never forget this. You look a little frazzled and I was like, are you alright? How you doing? You okay? I said, have you eaten? And you're like, no, I haven't eaten yet. And I said, Lena, we have a vending machine. I'll get you whatever you want. And I got you Doritos. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it sparked a conversation about the blackest of snacks. And I want to play a bit of that audio right now. Perfect. Jesus Christ. Here's me and Lena Waithe talking on a recent Saturday morning in Los Angeles. There we go. I smell Doritos in this house. You want some? No, no, I don't. I'm more of a cooler ranch. These are the extra cheese. Those are like, that's a black man. Okay. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Yes. That's blacker than this. Black. No. Okay. What's even blacker? Oh, I got the blackest snack item for you. What? My mom growing up. I don't know where the hell she found it. Microwavable pork rinds. Okay. What? Like the way you microwave popcorn. You microwave pork rinds. Okay. I want that as well. Do you? I mean, I like to, and our writers are in our, this shows how black our show is. Yes. This is the shy. Brent's going to get mad at you again for not being on the mic. Oh, s***.

I know. I know. Let me get here. Let me do it. I feel like I'm on Breakfast Club. DJ, I'm going to be like, talk into the mic. No, we have pork rinds. We actually have spicy pork rinds in the bag. What kind of spice? I don't know. It's just like hot pork rinds. But I'm telling you, you say that. They'll stink up a whole room. They do. They're awful. But you put one of them things in your mouth and you're just like, okay, there's a heaven. There's a God. When you put a spicy pork rind in your mouth, you say, there is a God and he exists. I love it. Cool.

That's amazing. Do you remember that? No, I don't remember that. Oh, gosh. No, but I remember pulling up and us just having a fantastic conversation. It was really great. You were so good to me and so good to us and I appreciate you. And I wanted to bring up that audio because even listening back to it, I realized we are in such different places personally and professionally. We've grown a lot. We've changed a lot. Oh, yeah. And I want to ask, I think my first question for you is like,

What is the biggest difference between the Lena on this stage right now and the Lena seven years ago talking to me about spicy pork rinds? Oh, my God. Jeez. I feel like I'm finally grown. Okay. Say more. Just turned 40 as well. May 17th. All right. Finally 40. Look at Black.

You ain't 40. 40. Oh, my God. We're here. I mean, listen, black queer people in America turning 40 is no small thing. You're right. Absolutely. It's a celebration. But I think, you know, to say I matured is sort of easy, but I think I've been growing up still and bumping up against some stuff. And I think there's a sort of idea that

If you are othered, you are naturally wise. But when you are othered, you have to mature quickly. And growing up, we all have a secret. So keeping secrets is something I think I kind of got used to. And I think the biggest thing is sort of being able to own my truth.

and own the things that I get wrong and falling down and embracing those things. So I think that's really been a big journey for me is to not have to always get things right. Because I do feel like when you're put on a pedestal, which is what happens when you're the first black person to do anything of what people think is significant, they put you there and you spend a lot of time trying not to fall.

And it's not how I want to spend my time. I think it's funny you talk about social media. We tend to become morality police. And I think for me is that I really want to embrace my humanness. And like falling off the pedestal has been nice because I get to live on Earth with everybody else. I love that. And I love that you bring that up.

Because we were having a conversation about Pride on the show, and I brought up this idea that, like...

visibility is good, but also visibility requires performance. Because when you're the first to do it, the barrier breaker, and now you're on this pedestal to represent queer people or black people, everyone wanting that visibility, whether they say it or not, they want that visibility in their way. They want that visibility in a way that makes sense to them, that doesn't offend them, that makes them happy. And they never ask you...

How you want to be visible. How have you made peace with that, if you have? You know, I think people feel like, well, if I were you, this is what I would do. If I were you, this is how I would do it. And the truth is, is that I am me.

I have to do it in my way. And that may not look like the way other people would do it. But I also think that's OK, because I hope it can maybe start a conversation, you know, in terms of, oh, that's how she's deciding to show up in the world. And and then my hope is to inspire others to show up in the world in the way that feels right to them.

and not waste energy in trying to have other people show up in the world in the way in which you do. - Mm-hmm. Well, and Zach, you talk about this all the time. Queerness is all about possibility. - Yes. - It should be possibility. - Yes. - The very idea of queerness should say there is no one path.

Have fun. No, yeah, what you're referencing is Jose Esteban Munoz. He's the scholar who passed away years ago, but he wrote the book Cruising Utopia. And he talks about queerness is not something we'll ever touch. Queerness is an ideal that you'll be always like a North Star, that you'll be aiming to get, and you'll never get there, but you always hope to get there. And, you know, that's in conflict with the type of representation that you began to symbolize for so many people. I remember I was an editor-in-chief when you won your Emmy, and I was like,

And I was so excited. I was like, she looks like my cousin. I don't know her yet. I want to know her. She's winning. She's getting all these things. And we were covering you really heavily and everyone was covering you really heavily. And in my newsroom at the time, I would talk to my staff and I would say, you know, are we building people up to just rip them down later?

That was something I would see a lot, especially in queer media. We'd be like, ooh, Sam Smith. Amazing, amazing, amazing. And then does one thing wrong, just rip them down. And it would go on and on and on again. When you began to feel the pressures of the symbolic nature of your rise, because you weren't just able to be like, I'm a writer that won an Emmy. You became Lena Waithe, black

queer person that has blazed all these trails. How did your brain begin to process that reality? Because it feels in some ways like it's amazing that you now will be etched into the Stonewall history books forever for this representational moment, but you never just got to be a writer that won an Emmy and that's it. Yeah. I mean, I think I didn't have that luxury because I was a first. Yeah. So yes, I was something to be celebrated, but also something to take note of because

Think about how long the Emmys have been around. Yeah. How am I the first black woman to even be nominated in the category for outstanding writing in a comedy series? How am I the first person to win that? How is Halle Berry still the first and only black woman to ever win Best Lead Actress in a Motion Picture for Academy Awards? How long have these institutions been around to be a first...

It's punching through a wall, but my hand is still bloodied and bruised. It's like they're framed as breakthroughs, but they're really indictments. Of the systems. Of the system, yeah. On this, I wanted to ask, you know, I mean, Vibe Check came from our group chat, you know, where we would come together as three black queer people and try to figure things out individually.

in private. - Yes, yes. - And that's so important. So I wanted to ask you because you have had to do so much in public and all the internet is loud. - Sure.

Was there a friend or mentor that helped you navigate or gave you a bit of advice in terms of figuring all of this out? No, I appreciate that question. Yeah, Dr. Henry Louis Gates. Henry Louis Gates? Dr. Henry Louis Gates. Like V. Henry Louis Gates? Okay, Lena. Lena said, nigga, I went to the source.

Do you call him Henry? Heard of the family tree, climbed it. Do you call him Henry? Is it just Henry? Dr. Gates, Henry, what do you call him? Skip Gates. This is awesome. Wait, you call him Skip? You call him Skip Gates? I do not. I'm too nervous. I'm like, Dr. Henry Lewis Gates. I'm too scared to say Skip. Also, I just need to say also something backstage. I'm being messy today. Lena said, I have fancy friends. I was like, no, you have fancy friends. You have fancy friends, Lena. I don't know Dr. Henry Lewis Gates. Look, you always look like you're coming off a boat. Ha ha ha.

Literally, backstage, she walked in the green room and she's like, Zach, yacht. You know, that's what I... He don't wear, he don't hold socks. Yeah. What?

And this is what family does. Drags each other. No socks and undershirts. Look. Skip. Skip. Look, he and I bonded, okay, when I did Finding Your Roots, all right? I found out that my people, I'm Bayesian. Oh, okay. Barbadian. Okay, all right. Okay. Okay, Barbados, I got to go. So no, but he's obviously very inspiring. But the reason why I go to him is because he's a historian. Mm-hmm.

So when you're in the present and you want to understand it, you go to people who know history. Yeah. So I talked to him and I was like, talk to me about, you know, black art and black folks and their relationship with their representation. And he said, you know, we've been a judge and jury since the beginning of time in terms of, you know, how Hattie McDaniel was not beloved by the NAACP because she was blank domestic and black folks didn't want to be seen as such.

But yet she wins an Academy Award, first black person to win an Academy Award for her beautiful role in Gone with the Wind. And Hannah McDaniel, there's a letter that's in the Academy Museum. I implore people to go see it in Los Angeles, where she writes a letter to the NAACP talking about how she understands that they're not too happy about her representation of black folks. But she comes from a family of women who are domestics, who took care of their families and other families, and how she was proud of those women, how she was honored to play

a mammy on that screen and do so with heart and humor and humanity. And she earned that Academy Award. But there was a duality there. So what Dr. Henry Louis Gates reminds me is that what I go through, say, with Queen and Slim or something like that is not new. It's par for the course. But also, I look to those who are no longer here. I read Baldwin essays such as Sweet Lorraine, where he talks about how Raisin in the Sun was not immediately embraced by the black community.

How they said it wasn't a reflection of a black family at that time. But after it's been revived again and again and again, we realize it could not be more accurate now today as it was then. But Baldwin says really beautifully, and I read this also during times when, you know, Internet may get loud. I want to read. I want to hear Baldwin's voice. And he says, a lot has been written and said about the play A Raisin in the Sun.

but he said it was not meant for the generation it is put in front of but rather for a generation that has not been born yet and as i was reading it i said oh i'm that generation yeah lorraine died at 34. yeah she did that was her work and so i always think about and i have a big framed photo of lorraine hansberry in my office and i look at it daily queer black woman from chicago who was telling the truth about black families and wasn't always embraced by black people at the time but it was needed

I needed it. I needed Lorraine to write that before she died. And for me, it was a life jacket. So when the internet gets loud, I kind of just remember that the art doesn't change. The audience is due. My art will outlive me. So in 20 years, I think Queen Islin will continue to age beautifully. It already has, devastatingly so.

So that's the thing. I don't think about now opinions. You let the art live and breathe and grow and people will find it. And those that need it, they'll find the work. That's beautiful. Yes. So I'm going to, I'll text it to you, but there's, I'm pretty sure there's a beautiful black and white photo of Lorraine Hansberry and James Baldwin dancing. Yes. I love that image. So like those two. Good friends. Yeah. I love those two. North stars for sure. I love that.

You walk in the green room. I felt this lovely, warm sense of calm all around you. You're very calm. You're on the stage with us right now. I feel a lovely, warm sense of calm. And when I talk to other folks in L.A. in the industry right now, all they are is nervous. Where the money at? Everything's closing down. This strike didn't help us. Oh, my God, what's next? How do we monetize? Streamers aren't making money. We're in a moment now where the industry you work in

feels quite nervous. Oh, yeah. And it feels like you're not or not letting that be the emotion you lead with. I want you to talk more about that. Sure. Because it feels like a conscious choice. Yeah, there's a couple of things. I'm a believer in that you cannot wait for the world to be calm. I love that.

I love that. You cannot wait for the world to be calm. Clap for that. It's good. It's good. Hold on. I like that. Hold on. Yeah. We just got to church. That was it. Yeah. That was the moment. Now I'm going to bring you home. You must be calm in the world. Yeah. Yeah.

It ain't gonna never slow down for you. I love that. You must be calm. So that's one. That's one part of it. The other part of it is I'm in a privileged position. I have a show that's airing. Yeah. That ratings go up every season. Season six. Six seasons. That's a lot, y'all. And we're currently writing season seven. Yes. Yes.

So it's a blessing of riches, but it's also because we are now, I believe sort of our industry is absolutely going through a transformation. It's sort of like there was a time in our industry when movies were silent. Then we entered into a talkies. Then there was video and there was cable. Now we're in a streaming world. So the business is going to change, is going to shift and we're going to have to adapt along with it. That's just what happens. Either adapt or die.

And we have to do that in our business. And it's not easy. Transitions are difficult. Where we'll land, we'll see. But where we are now is there's too much demand

And so there's an overcrowdedness of content. So what I'm trying to do is be that sparkly content that you don't get bored with and that you keep coming back to. And so that is sort of my mission is to be an artist, but also be an artist that has work that is in demand. Like The Chi is a very, it's a unique thing. And that is the only show like where every season our ratings go up. Yeah.

Doesn't happen on most shows. And so, yeah, we're really grateful. I mean, but and then also, but because we're on a streamer, first five seasons, 10 episodes. That's what we do. We're on cable, 10 episodes. Season six, we were asked to do 16. Oh, that's a lot. It's a lot. It's a privilege. But guess what? When my show is not on Showtime slash Paramount Plus, the subscriptions go down.

So therefore, they've asked for more of the show. Which is a blessing, but also trips us up a little bit storytelling-wise. We're used to telling 10-episode stories. This season, which people are enjoying, they've broken it up into two-part season. There's 16 episodes, so they aired eight episodes. We took a break, and now they're airing eight more, which means what? Those subscribers are going to stay right there. Season seven is now 12 episodes. They're going to break that up six and six.

So now the thing is, it's a blessing, but it's a different relationship with our audience. Now they're kind of waiting a bit and say, okay, now we're going to have more episodes here. And now we're telling a story. Like I said, a 10 episode, we're telling 16. Okay. So season seven is going to tell 12 episodes. So what are the, we do these peaks and valleys in the story. So it's not just, it's not a, it's not a chocolate factory. You know, we're telling stories and, and that's the thing where I'm calm. Cause I'm like, okay, we got a job and people want to see the show and they want to continue to do more seasons. But,

but at the same time as an artist, I care about the integrity of this show and I care about the fans. And so I might ask if we go back to 10, which may not always be fun 'cause the fans are like, "We got one more episode." But I want to make sure the storytelling is strong. Storytelling is good and we don't sort of run out of story. And the last part about these streamers and stuff

It's a tricky thing. Now we're kind of almost going back to cable. It's like you're paying for eight channels necessarily to kind of watch a show on this one, a show on that one. So, look, we're doing our best to kind of figure out how we want to adjust to the business, but also try to do the things that we want to fix, which is sort of like there's too much content. So how do we kind of keep people engaged in the content that we put out?

Yeah. You said a word that I want to drill into. You said sparkle. And I love that word as a gay person. Yes, me too. Great word. Fantastic word. But I get as someone that now produces and has worked in media for a while and looks at stories all day. All of us have worked in storytelling and some of us have been editors together and we're always looking at so many things and we have to make choices based on what we like and what we think the world would like.

And you have a very privileged and amazing position by having Hillman grad, the amazing production company, um, who's very present at Tribeca with indeed. And, um, you all do an incredible job of finding such diamonds that people aren't really advocating for. And an example I have is that Sundance this past year, we were both there and I was at the premiere of the incredible documentary Kokomo city, um,

This was years ago. But you can stream on Paramount Plus for free this month. Happy Pride. It's so good. It's an amazing, amazing film made by black trans women about black trans women told in their own voices. It's incredible. Kokomo City. But you were the first person, even before I saw it, you were like, oh, we're working on this. We're doing this.

So that sparkled for you. It sparkled for me. It sparkled for everyone in Sundance. But you were one of the first people to see that sparkle. How do you find that sparkle in things? And what are the textures of the sparkles for you? I mean, I think for me, it's really about I've been watching TV and movies since I was a kid. I used to work at Blockbuster for those that know. I don't know.

- All right people. - It's good to be a millennial. - I miss it so. - So I was just like always rent, and I was just like rent everything in there, like just based on like the cover or the title, but that's how I saw Paris is Burning, that's how I saw Hoop Dreams, you know, two of my ultimate favorite documentaries. And so what I felt there was this sense of humanity. It was like, oh man, like I'm seeing a slice of life. And so I just felt so invigorated. And I would watch those documentaries again and again, like Paris is Burning, I've seen a million times.

And so when I saw Kokomo City, and shout out to Rishi Rajani, who's my CEO, who was going to be moderating a panel at Sundance, and that was one of the films. And so he watched it and then sent it to me. I was out in London. He's like, you got to watch this documentary. And I watched it on my laptop in my living room. And I thought,

I just want to make sure everybody gets a chance to see this. And that's really the position I sit in. It's sort of, how do I make sure these things that I'm exposed to, I can expose other folks to? And also making sure the work gets out there. And we called and said, what do they need? How can we help? And they were like, we'd love if you came on as a production company. And we did that a couple days before it premiered at Sundance. And then obviously we got bought up. We were really grateful for that. And then we fought to get it on Paramount+. So folks could watch it in their living rooms. They probably

be too afraid to go see it at a movie theater so we're also very mindful of that as well like how can you be comfortable watching stories about trans women and not feel uncomfortable in a space full of strangers but rather in your living room and get a chance to engage with them which is how I engage with documentaries by myself in a living room really locked in with these people and I think that's how we change the world is by showing people just how much alike we are even though we may look different absolutely one last question before we let you go

you were so good and i know you've been meditating because so i felt the call i've been mad i feel the calm i love it it's so i grew up you know we'll talk about it later but i grew up meditating i'm practicing i'm new i'm new to it yeah yeah um but some this is i just i have to ask because it's something i've always wanted to ask you okay um you're a proud proud daughter of chicago yeah you know the the critically acclaimed show the shy

You know, we have a Democratic convention happening in Chicago. Those are always spicy. Like a few weeks. It's going to be messy. I'm worried. It's going to be messy. And so I just wanted to ask, and it's not just the convention, but, you know, it's all kinds of different interests and political sides love to use the city of Chicago in a way that to me feels manipulative. And so I just wanted to ask you, how do you feel about the way people talk about Chicago?

You know, I can't deny that it is not a complex city. It's very complex. And yes, the politics are really crazy. The violence has gotten to be headline news. You know, those housing projects and things like that. And I grew up on the south side of Chicago. And I also grew up in a three-generation house. I grew up in my grandmother's house. But I think in that neighborhood, because it was a bunch of elder black folks in that neighborhood...

I remember you telling about the tree on your front lawn. Yes, yes, man. Like, just like the lawns were always mowed perfectly. You know, because these are black folks who really migrated from the South into Chicago. So,

Chicago also feels like a very small community. And I think that's what people don't really get about the city is that, yes, it is a city. It's a busy city, but there is a lot of community there and there's a lot of people from the South there. So people often say Chicago is sometimes a sound country. And a lot of that is because we have Southern roots, which I do. My grandmother's from Arkansas. And so...

That's really where Chicago sort of has that. I think that's what that southern hospitality mixed with that sort of fast city type of energy and I think what I try to do is give people a real picture of the people that make up the city and those people are human beings and oftentimes their backs have been put against the wall and so therefore they're making decisions that they ordinarily wouldn't make or doing things that they ordinarily wouldn't do because they have to take care of their families and

And, you know, I had to leave the city to follow a dream. But my family is still in that city and they ain't gonna never leave it. So whenever I got to confront myself, I always got to go home. I got to go to that city. And so that's why I take it all very personally. And I don't think it's an accident that I wrote a show about the city because I am not

Lena Waithe without being from Chicago. I love that. That's why we love you. Lena Waithe. Lena Waithe. Lena. Thank you. What's up? Next time I see you, I'm going to have the microwavable pork rinds. Okay. Spicy.

I can only eat one, man. That's all you need. I'm trying to eat about 40 now, man. I'm right behind you. I got to eat right. No more pork rinds, man. This has been beautiful. This is delightful. Thank you. Give it up for Little Wave. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Listeners, thank you so much for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you enjoyed this live version of the show, come find us live in Los Angeles at the Ford Theater on July 14th. Tickets are on sale right now. You can find the link to buy them in our episode notes below.

And again, live shows require a lot of great people coming together and collaborating. So a huge thank you again to the team at WBUR City Space in Boston. We are your biggest fans. Thank you for having us. And again, the team at the Tribeca Festival and Spring Studios in New York. Everyone, it just felt like we were so loved, well taken care of, and it allowed us

to have a great conversation with all of our listeners. So thank you all. And of course, special thanks to our amazing guest, Lena Waithe. And always thank you to our producers, Chantel Holder, engineers, Rich Garcia, Brendan Burns, and Jared O'Connell. And Marcus Holm for our wonderful theme music and sound design, which we've got to say, the theme music at live events, it's like we need to put out a remix. The bass hits. Marcus, you take us there. You take us there every time. And of course, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharpe from Agenda.

And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Keep in touch with us on Instagram on our new page at vibecheck underscore pod and our Patreon, where for $5 a month, you get direct access to our group chat. And that's patreon.com slash vibecheck. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Until then, goodbye. Bye. Happy Juneteenth. Stitcher.

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