Meet Eugene Khoza – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]
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So what made you decide to go into podcasting? Decide to go into it? Is that your podcast voice? I'm going to have to edit around all of Eugene's veneck. Because how do you do subtitles on a podcast? Any veneck that you say, I'm going to just throw in an American guy's voice there. So you'll be like, but Epstein... And then instead of like...

The guy ends up with something Then he'll be like Epstein he did it And then I'll just tell I'm just gonna tell the audience Every time you hear this voice He spoke in another language And I didn't want to lose The authenticity of the conversation So I didn't edit around it at all So there you go But I had That's funny Yeah but I Cause you have to do subtitles But I want you to know That it's subtitles You see me Yeah

This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. Whenever you want more water, just do something natural. Oh, would you like some water, Eugene? Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

This is the awkward part. How you start a conversation. It's the worst part of every conversation. Why don't we start with a prayer? This is actually why our grandmothers started meetings with prayers. Oh yeah, to cut the awkwardness. Yeah, because it's to cut the awkwardness. Because now you can't just come together and be like, your son has a drug problem and your husband is cheating. If you start with a prayer, then it opens it up. But it was also a Township Power move.

Because everyone here will know whose house this is. Because you can't lead a prayer at somebody else's house. When you pray in a South African household, right? First of all,

Like I don't know If your grandmother did this My grandmother used to Give her address And she used to give like Where she's from And her name and everything No my grandmother did that No really My grandmother would do that She'd be like And then she'd be like What a location Yeah Who you are Where you're from And I remember I asked her once I was like why are you doing this And then she was like Why do I assume She was like Yeah she said She said Trevor I must just assume That God is always Listening to me She said Yeah yeah yeah That's not fair

And if you think about it, most South African like prayer in general, I think is very like considerate of God. It's very much like we know that you're doing stuff and we know that like, you know what I mean? Yeah. But I think because of missionaries, we never as black people thought that God is with us. God was brought to us. So we always have to identify ourselves and also separate ourselves from the non-believers. It's funny. Now that you say the missionary thing. Yeah. I actually think a lot of that was real. Yeah.

is that like because think i always think about this i go like imagine being a black person anywhere on the continent right these people come with religion right and then they tell you that the reason things are going bad in your life is because you don't have this this god in particular because there was religion okay there were different religions all over the continent all over south america all over these places they would force um

you know, the native people that they would force them to buy goods from them that nobody else wanted to buy at predetermined prices. They would say they would do the work of like donkeys and mules and all of that stuff. But the main thing was they also came in with religion. So everywhere in the world, I can see this vibe where people have come in with religion saying to you, "Hey, all these bad things that are happening to you are because you don't worship God."

And then it must have been weird because the natives are like, you are the bad thing that's happening to us. They're like, yes, exactly. If you had prayed. And you have penicillin. This wouldn't be happening to you. I thought you didn't need penicillin because you can pray. Go put on clothes. It's not cancer time yet. But also churches in the township, that's where you would see family structure.

Yes. That's where you'd see people dressed up nicely because parents used to leave very early. So you never see them wearing nice clothes except for on a Sunday. Yeah. And then also cars as well. You'd see your principal or the local doctor. They would park their cars. So church has always been aspirational. I don't think anything has changed from back in the day to now. And also missionaries offered people to go to university. Nelson Mandela was that beneficiary. So a lot of people that went and played cricket and went to school because of churches.

So a lot of people are very conflicted when it comes to religion and this topic because somehow they benefited from it. Now they can't separate themselves from the lies of it as well and the oppression of it as well. But people in other countries who are not part of the system of going to that, because if you think of a church, such a small building for a big community. So it's already on its, by merit, it already is an exclusive club of people. The believers, the believers that are believing in proxy,

There's believers that are dedicated in coming here and giving money and dressing up and showing up. It's a place for people to gather once a week to come and say what they need to say. So Tina, the organization of it ended for us when church ended. But for people in power, it kept on continuing the whole week through. Because people run the church, run the church, they don't have other jobs.

The believers have other jobs. The Pope's job is to run the church. The other ones, it's for them to go and collect money and come back and give it back to the Pope. I'm conflicted when it comes to church because I think... You love church? Yeah, I love it. I love churches. I don't love church. No, no, no. But I... So, you know, when I look at what we're experiencing in the world today...

There's no denying that church and religion is responsible for a lot of, I mean, you name it and label it, right? Pain, conflict, what, what, what, what, what, what, right? Birth control. You name it, whatever. But when I look at what people's lives have become, I can't help but wonder how much worse it's going to get when church falls away. So go to any thriving European country. Church is gone now.

When I was in the Netherlands, all the churches that used to be churches are now- The ABNBs now. Yeah, they've just turned into other things. Really? Yeah. It's like there's a restaurant or this is something. It's just, it's not a church. So cathedrals are gone. No, no, no. It's all, it's not a church. Churches are dying. In fact, funny enough, in the US, you know that story, you know when Trump was saying like, hey, the Haitians, they're eating dogs, they're eating cats, blah, blah, blah. Yes, that whole thing. So they went to that part of Ohio and they interviewed people.

And not only were they saying that the Haitian immigrants have revitalized the local economy, they went to the church. And then the pastor said the church was about to die. He said the church was dead. And now because of the Haitians, the church is a thing again and it exists. And they come there and they use it and there's a congregation. And now the church makes money and they can be a community hub again. So that's why I say I'm conflicted when it comes to church.

Because I think it's easy for us to dismiss things in general in life. Like we always want to say good, bad. But to your point, I can't think of a place that is responsible for more community and connection than a church. Because a church, you didn't need money to come to it. As we live in a world where more and more clubs are predetermined, you know, like race, class, all these things. Religion was one of the few things where you could opt in.

You could walk in off the street and say, I want to be part of your club. And the person would be like, yeah, you're part of the club. No, like where do people connect for free with other humans on the internet? Yeah, but that's not connecting. 100% is connecting. Bro, that's not connecting. You know how you mentioned... That's not connecting. You think the internet is connecting? Yes. Okay, what level of connection? You know how many times I've spoken to you on WhatsApp? We just five right at a time. But imagine if we met on WhatsApp.

It wouldn't be the same. No, I'm saying if we met on WhatsApp. But we have a couple of times. No, man, met. I'm saying if our initial introduction as human beings was on WhatsApp, it wouldn't be the same. This would be a video call right now if we had met on WhatsApp. This guy. I think where religion and church is concerned, and I hear your point about it almost feels like as humans, we need structure. Yeah. And I remember days when my parents were not at home. Well, my dad was always not at home. But when my mom was not at home, I would have the most amount of fun.

When I was the youngest, I used to think I need this woman here. But as soon as she said there's food in the fridge, you know where the TV remote is, have a good time. And I'm going to be gone for eight hours. I was like, can you leave sooner? The overtime there.

Because in my world, that's when I realized I don't actually need someone to tell me what to do. I learned that very early. So some people need structure and some people don't. But I think also people are deep and steeped in religion, have abdicated their responsibility to be good people to someone else, to a higher power.

So when they go to a pastor, when they go to their reverend and when they speak to God on their behalf, they feel like they don't have to be good people. They can always ask for forgiveness. But I feel like if people who go to church took that same mentality that they have for that hour and a half at church and actually spread it around in real life every day, day to day, the world would be a better place. Because I think love should be preached more than religion. I don't think someone should tell us Jesus died on the cross for all of us to be here and then ends there.

Look, I don't think you're wrong, but stories help. Like stories just help. So if you say to somebody, sacrifice is the most powerful thing you can do. Someone's like, okay, what do you mean by that? I think there's something really powerful in someone saying, hey man, this stranger that you don't know died for you and your sins.

There's a deep gratitude that comes with that. Yeah, but the Bible is a big book of suffering. Yes. But life is a big book of suffering. You see? So it's all about someone did something and then found redemption. Someone did something and then found redemption. Yes. There's never someone just having a good time. There's lots of people having a good time in the Bible. Who? Lot's wife turned into salt? Job who was sold to? Because she looked back. She looked back. Job whose investments were tarnished and then he had to... Who? Show me one person in the Bible who had a good time. Who was someone who had a good time? People who were in the bellies of the whale. People who were kicked out of Eden. Yeah.

Someone was asked to go sacrifice his son. They were having a good time before they were kicked out of Eden. Yeah. They were having a great time. Someone had to go. It's me, eh? Yes, but okay. So what are you saying? You want the Bible to show me then a TV show where nobody suffers. Yeah, but where? This is entertainment. But where are the good times in the Bible? No, there's lots of good times. Where? There's lots of good times. There's lots of good times. King David had good times. Until what happened? Until he died. What did King David do?

Well, I mean, he killed Goliath. That was his journey of becoming David, the king. So he was a wise king. Yes, he was a wise king. But then he also, he was the one who killed the guy's, the woman's husband, right? So he was having a good time. Put them in the artillery. Yes, but he was having a good time. But he was having a good time. But was the wife having a good time? Did the husband have a good time? Did the extended family? Eugene. The funeral cover. Okay, now let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Which TV show has people having a good time?

The Apprentice. No, I'm joking. No, but seriously. No one's having a good time. I hear what you're saying. But I mean, like, if you're telling stories, there is no story that is worth listening to. If it's just like, I went there, what I wanted to happen happened. Yes. And then I came back and everything is great. That's not a story. So then every sermon in church, obviously, they're picking from this book and they decide maybe we're going to preach about Job. Yes. There's going to be how Job suffered and then how is you suffering right now and how you can end your own suffering by doing what? By bringing it away.

Okay, so... Because Job did not pray away. So I feel like... God said to him, who are you to question me? But I feel like here what's happening is... Then he was like, yeah. I feel like you're trying to get me now to defend religion. No, no, no, not at all. But I'm not. I'm trying to get you to defend the characters in the great book of Oz. I mean... So what I'm... But it's fine. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter what the book is. Okay. Even if we talk about The Wizard of Oz, right? I don't need... No, but really. We've got three.

I don't need Dorothy to be real. I don't need the Tin Man to be real. I don't need the lion to be... But these are the concepts that stick with me. The Wicked Witch of the West. Yeah, if someone wrote me a textbook about courage, about decency, about like... Then what? But you remember it when it's a story. You connect to it differently. You understand it. Dorothy goes on a journey. You get what I'm saying? Like all of these characters go on a journey. And so I think...

I hear what you're saying and I agree. In a perfect world, everyone would be able to do for themselves what they require another to do for them. But I don't think that's fundamentally what makes us human. I think humans need that. So that you as Eugene may not need somebody to tell you what to do, maybe in one or some aspects of your life. Yes, yes. Not in all. Yeah, but then there'll be some places where you find there's a deep reward that comes from somebody...

guiding you and that for me is the good of churches so like when a church when a church is run well when a church is not like yeah when a church is not like the minister having a private jet and the congregation starving I'm saying when a church is run well it really just is a community center where people come together they share like an idea of problems they talk about how there's something on the other side but yeah it's group counseling yeah it's group counseling so why are you being so difficult when you know what it is I think it's a podcast when uh

You see what you just did now? You just did the Bible to me. You could have just come in and made it good times, but you brought suffering. You brought strife. You brought pain. Why did you do that? Hey, my life trumped my thirst.

Oh man. I wanted to do them both at the same time. Oh man. Oh, my son burn. Oh wow. That's what you get. Oh man. I'm burnt. What were you doing? I forgot that I could get this burnt. I was playing pickleball.

You need a difference between pickleball and paddleball. Because I've heard you speak. You and I went to go play paddleball for the first time. Yeah, paddleball. And I whacked myself in the face. That's the problem with paddleball is people hit themselves. So, okay. Oh, it's a thing. Why didn't you tell me this that day? I didn't know until you started. You were the first person who let me know this was a trend. You know what I mean? So, paddleball is squash mixed with tennis. And then pickleball, I would say, is table tennis mixed with tennis. So, is the racket smaller? Yeah.

No, the racket is just different. It's like a flat pedal type thing. It's like a piece of polycarbonate or something. I don't know. It's like a big table tennis. Also, that's where the similarities come in. Yeah, I would say that. And the ball. And the ball. The way it sounds, the way it moves. It sounds. Yeah, because it does like a... Oh, okay. So when it hits the... Yeah, but the pedal has more of like a...

By the way, if you want to buy my new album, Sounds of Racket Sports, you can find the link in the description. So we were playing. The only time that people could come together with their schedules was at like 10, 11. And then the UV index was 10. I just learned about UV indexes, by the way. Yes. So the UV index was 10. Yeah. And then I just got like a burn around my...

So the people that you're playing with, they were only free at around 10 in the morning? Yeah, it just happened to be. Normally we play like when the sun is setting. Do all of your friends that you play pickleball with have jobs? Yes. What do they do? You want everyone's job? The one who was there at pickleball.

There's a lot of people. You want everyone's jobs. Someone works in marketing. Another person works in, I don't know, the finance industry. Another person's unemployed. Another person works in advertising. Another person works in, I don't know, trading or something. Yeah.

Another person works on radio Another person is a lawyer How far must I go with this? How many were you? 10 or so Yeah maybe So you all coordinated You must come and join You'd love it I know You'd love it Do you find it weird When you are hanging around with Because you know How we grew up It's not like after we finished Metric

grade 12 yeah it's not like we went to university and studied a degree and then we went into the job market and gained experience when you look at the friends that you have let's say the group that you're playing pickleball with and you like when are you now you're a lawyer advertising whatever yeah they've put in years into this career that they have and they're now asking someone can i not be around mara can attend with my friend and do fun things which they actually really do enjoy do

Do you look at your friends? Because it happens to me when I still used to have friends with jobs.

And I'd look at them and I'd go, I hacked the system. Because I don't understand how they do it. When you hang out with them, how do you pretend to be normal? Because in that situation, you're not normal. You could have done this at six in the morning. No, but we're all normal. Okay, I think of it this way. I know what you mean. Please tell the audience how you know how I mean it. Because I don't want to be the only guy who said it. Because we all know. When you're with friends with John. When they start talking about David Orders, you're like, yeah.

Or contract renewals, you're like, eh, eh, eh, eh. Smoothie. Okay. So on the one side, being a comedian or being in any type of career where there is no boss slash job slash firing and hiring slash is weird because you're right. There's nothing that forces you to go somewhere per se. And there's also nothing that guarantees you anything per se. So there's no payday when you work in comedy. There's no, oh, it's that time of the month. That's a guarantee.

No, but what I mean is there is none and there is. When is it coming? When is it not coming? How is it coming? How is it not? But I don't know. If you think of you as being the business in a weird way, you do become more normal. I think when I meet people who run their own businesses or their own little companies or their own whatever thing, we feel the same. Because you work as much as you want to work.

And then your work is generally directly tied to, you know, how much money you make generally. But just like me, you have friends that are in business and then you have friends that are employed. Yeah.

Do you feel like your code switch when you're with the two? What's the difference between the two? No. Actually, you know what? I think one of the things that freed me the most was the more I spent time with professionals, the more I realized how much... You mean the employed? No, professionals. Like, you know, I studied law and I studied accounting and I studied... Like those kinds of people. The more I realized that most people are just winging it in life. Yes. Genuinely. Yes. Genuinely, genuinely, genuinely. I think one of the worst things that ever happened to me in life is...

I've gotten to meet like some world leaders where I go like, oh boy, we're in trouble in the world. Because we assume that most people's positions come with a certain aptitude and expertise that's applicable to everything. But we do most people, right? Yes, absolutely. Like Elon Musk is a good example.

Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. Now, like doubling, you know, what is it like 400 million or whatever now these days? The next person is 200 million. So like Elon, yeah, no, sorry, 400 billion. Did I say million? Okay. See this thinking small of yours. And I worry about these things when we are sitting. So Elon Musk, because of that,

Just like wanders into every space and is given the full latitude where nobody questions anything. So, you know, it's funny coming back to the Bible, actually. One thing I appreciate about the Bible is that if you read it properly, it does show you the complexity of the human being. Yeah. Right. So in the Bible.

There are good people who then go on to do terrible things and live like a horrible life, you know, in the end. There are bad people who do have a good moment. But you see humanity in its full complexity is what I find if you like read the Bible, right? So even the person that you go is a good guy. You go like, oh, this is a good person. Read the Bible and you're going to see there's parts of the story where you're like, they did what with their son? Yeah.

They did what to their mom? They did what to their neighbor? They did. Then you're like, damn, I don't know if I can. I mean, I guess King David was good, but also how could he do this? Right. And I think some of that thinking is necessary for the world. So when you're with your friends with normal jobs and then you're playing pickleball and then they tell you, I have to go pick up someone at one or when they say, hey, my boss is there. Do you look away? When they look at a car in a car park and go, yeah, that's nice.

Is there a part of you that joins into, yeah, do you look at them and go, yeah, that's also nice. Because you're not saying it's nice because you can't afford it or you can't buy it or you can't have it. You've probably driven it and enjoyed it. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm trying to figure out. Because that's what I struggled with. I'm saying when people with normal jobs, like now when we're coming here. By the way, what jobs have you had in your life? I worked at a car park.

Doing what at a car park? There was like Before there were Pairs you go tickets I introduced that system With my friends actually At the mall in Pretoria So there used to be A booth at the end At the exit and entrance Of every car park You come in there's a boom You come out there's a booth So I used to take the ticket And go Oh damn Was this your first job? First first job Yeah when I was 16

So that's what I did on weekends and school holidays. They give you the ticket, they pay you and then you calculate. Yeah, yeah. How did you feel when you saw your first automatic boom machine thing? The pay on foot ticket system. When people could do it without you. Yeah, I was happy. Really? Yeah, because I was in my trick at that time. Then I was like, I don't need you, I'm out. And I left.

Oh. But I was happy. So there wasn't a part of you that was like, oh, they took our jobs. No. I was happy. But one thing I always, the one thing that changed my life, because I worked, I started the car park at the mall.

And then when I reached Metric, I worked inside the mall. What did you do in the mall? I worked at a CD store when those things still existed. CD like music? Yeah. Damn. And then... All your jobs are defunct. Yeah. And I also had... You're basically like the Grim Reaper of jobs. Yes. When I come in the industry... When you see Eugene coming to the job, you must know it's over. Yeah.

I'm even warning you in the future. If you see Eugene show up and be like, hey guys, I'm now going to be working. You're like, ah, this industry is on its way out. Because you just went for like defunct job after defunct job. Another defunct job. I worked at CNA and my job was to mend the magazine counter. And then my job was to go there and tell people who are on dates while they're waiting for the movies to start to stop paging through the magazine. And I was like, ah, you were one of those guys. And they were like, ah,

And then one day I caught a smart guy. You were one of those guys who was like, you're not allowed to read. Yes. And then he was like, I was like, no, but you're not allowed to read.

the magazine. He was like, what if I go to another magazine? I was like, technically. You caught me. Elon. So that's what I did as well. So, but the one day that changed my life is I met the guy that owned Brooklyn Mall. A guy called Mr. Watson. Okay. He used to come there once a week. He drove a Jaguar. His driver drove a Jaguar and he would sit at the back and his wife would be in a mink coat even in the summer.

And then one day when they're entering the new system of pay on foot, and then he happened to be the guy next in line. And then I helped this driver. And then I saw him and I remembered, I've seen this guy so many times. Then he asked me what my name was. And I told him, he asked me how old I am. I said, yeah. He's like, so you do this every day? I'm like, no, no, not every day, only on holidays and weekends. And I said, what do you do? The audacity. My manager was behind me going, yeah.

And then he said, no, I business, but I live and I do things and I blah, blah, blah. Then I said, yeah, I want to do what you do. I want to come to the mall during the week for no reason. Then he said, if you wanted, you can do it. I hated when rich people say that. And then I only found out later in life when I worked inside the mall that that was him.

Because now he was inside them. Remember, I was in the parking lot when I first met him. Now I've got a job inside them. And then I met him and everyone was just, the shop owners were always happy to see him. The restauranteurs were always happy to see him. Then there's the guy that owned them all. And I think that was my first real realization of what being loved and being powerful, that combination, what it meant. He was a very powerful man. But he was loved. People loved him. And I think there was a side of him. A loved landlord. Yeah, he also loved them because he didn't have to be there. And that was a principle I took throughout my life.

And I've spoken to you about this before. I said, I only do things that I love. I only hang out with people that I like. I don't go out to force a lesson of pain on myself and try to test how far my patience can go with something I don't enjoy. So I'm only at places where I feel I'm wanted. I'm also at places where I feel like I want to be. And that was only from that interaction twice with this man who I've never met again. Damn. So I like that you...

And not in like a dismissive way. No, absolutely. But I love that you formed such a positive idea around this human being knowing the little that you did. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. That's what I wanted to take away from him. No, but I'm saying that's a beautiful thing because this person you met, you met them twice. Yeah.

And that's what you took from them. That's all I took from them. Because I realized how much power there was. Because also I started seeing it around. Because obviously if you work in a CD store, people come there to come buy music, but also to buy time. So they hang around. So when I would see people at the mall at 11 in the morning, I would like, what do you do that allows you to be at the mall at 11? I want to do that. So it became my quest to come to interview people while they're buying their CDs or listening to me. What was it about the mall that you were so... Abundance. Okay. Everything is there.

You don't go to the mall to win the shop. People go to the mall to look at things that they like and they can just buy them or they just go to hang out with people that they like. A mall was a gathering place. It was obviously, obviously 20 years ago. Yeah. You said that malls are dying now.

To an extent, yeah. I go to malls. I like going to malls. I like walking at malls. I go to Mall of Africa all the time. When I go to a new place, I go to a mall. Just in America, I haven't gotten a chance to go to it because I like Central Park more. So I walk around and go to churches. But I like malls. I like the feeling of abundance. I think that was my first glimpse of it. When I was working at the mall, I knew at the end of the month what I wanted to do with my money. Go to the mall. No, no. Go to the mall.

things I'd see at the mall. Yeah. I knew what sneakers I wanted. I knew what headphones I was going to buy with my money. I always enjoyed the feeling of abundance, but also it taught me a certain discipline in life that just because it's there doesn't mean you must take it.

Sometimes you just have to wait. Sometimes you can just walk past it. Sometimes the idea of being around it is even better than owning it. I could go into a sound system store and just listen and just have a good time. I didn't have to take it home. And then they would come and say, sir, please, please, you can't be listening. Please. Do you remember me? I was reading magazines in your store.

And remember what you told me. Yeah. Do you think that came from how you grew up? Like what was it about abundance that connected with you in that way? Because you didn't grow up with abundance. As cheesy as that sounds, it was my mom. My mom used to, she was a nurse. She's retired now. She had four kids. I was the third one. What she would do every month end was she would come to school and pick us up. Pick one up. So we had a roster.

So every month end, one child gets a turn to go to town with her. Oh, damn. But she made a point to come before break at school, go to the principal's office. Did your mom have a car? No. Okay. No, because I was wondering why one. I was like, damn, this is a crazy system. Okay. So you're getting in a taxi. Yes. That's why she has to pick one. No, no. Also, it's what's going to happen in town when we get there.

What's going to happen? You'll see. Okay, sorry. And then she would come to school and then talk to the principal and then I'd be like, there she is. Then she would come to my class. Would you know who she's coming to fetch? Of course. It's me. No, but you said there's a roster and you rotate. No, no, we're not at the same school at the same time. Oh, okay, okay. Got it, got it, got it. So she'd come. I thought your mom was doing like a lottery system. No, no, no. You're all at the same school and then your mom would walk in. You just see her head past those big windows at school and then they'll be like, Eugene, your mom is here. Then I'd be like, oh man, my mom.

Take my backpack and we're out. And then we would get in, we would high five each other in the passage there. Then we'd get in a taxi and then off we go to town. Then when we go to town, the first thing she did was we go to the park. Then we sit at the park and then she'd say, think of anything that you want, that you want us to buy today. Think of anything that you want. Then I'd be like, yes, yes, yeah, I want that one. Bega, Ninja Tight Lace, yeah, I want that. Okay, okay, I'm done. She's like, you're done, sharp. Then we'd go and buy all the things that I wanted. And then I realized how many things I passed away.

going to the things that I wanted that were insignificant at that point. Then you buy all the things you want. And then now we're doing groceries. Now we get to the nuts and bolts of it. Now she buys groceries for the whole house. And then what she used to do for all of us was she would buy a slab of chocolate for all of us and a tub of one liter ice cream for all of us. That was ours to do as we wanted. So that's what she did. She showed me abundance. And my mom had a concept, when it's finished, it's finished.

I've never struggled with loss, with loss of anything, especially finances. We've done things with cars and had fun and made money and lost money and do whatever. I've never struggled with that concept at all because she taught me when it's there, it's there. When it's not, it's not. But as long as you're here, you can always make it again. But just like you pass the things that you didn't want at the store to go to the things that you wanted, those things will always be there. So I've learned abundance from her. And what she would do is she would take the rest of the month's money and give it to you.

And then say, when someone needs something, they're going to come fetch it from you. So you understand that it's there, but it's there to be used. So the value of money for us was it buys bread,

It's a taxi ride for someone. It's a school thing that popped up out of nowhere. It's this, it's that. Someone coming to borrow money from the house. It's that. So the value of money was never to look at it as a thing that exists to make you feel good. It was there to help facilitate things that just might come up in life. Some things are small, you end up with more money. Some things are big, you end up with less money. But it was there. So she would go, if it was there when it was needed, it did its job.

So I look at life like that. And I'm glad for those lessons in life because I've had a chance to look around. And that's why I was asking you about friends with employment. I was not making fun of them at all. Because I have friends like that as well, who would say, I have a day off. A friend of mine on our way here called me, but I didn't answer his phone. But he sent me a text before saying, do you want to go ride in the mountain tomorrow? Because I'm day off. But I'm like, my life doesn't work like that. I can go ride any day. But if you have to think of it like that, then it means your world is centered like that.

Yeah. I think both of them come with pros and cons. Absolutely. So as much as you can say your life, you don't require a day off to do something. But the gift and the curse of it is that freedom is hard work. I've experienced this, let's say on a really flippant level. If I go on a vacation and everything is planned,

I have a great time. I know where I'm supposed to go. I know what time I have to be there. I'll go to the museum. Then I go to this. Then I go to... I'm having a great time. I'm like, oh, wow. Because I'm not thinking. I'm not... And when you're not thinking, you don't make the wrong choice. When you don't make the wrong choice, you don't have regrets. You don't feel... There's none of that. You don't go, did I do it or did I not do it? Right? Yeah. And I think there's a little bit of that when you are employed versus if you are like doing your own thing. Mm-hmm.

Is that when you are employed, there's a certain level of someone's telling you what you have to do on what day by what time. And that's liberating in many ways. It's like having a personal trainer. It's liberating. Have you ever walked into a gym and just looked at the weights? I don't go to gym. But you've never walked into a gym? Gym is kindergarten for people with regrets. Is that a no or yes? Yes. You've walked into a gym? Oh, man. So I get what you're saying.

But I didn't know that thing about, I didn't know that about your mom. Yeah. Like I knew that, I knew that vibe with your mom. It's funny. I'm trying to think of like how I process loss. Wait, so, okay. Help me understand this. Are you saying that you are not loss averse or are you saying that when you experience loss, you like whatever? Yes. Both of them. Yeah. I feel like my, my upbringing, my conditioning and also the way I view life has made me survive loss better.

I have things that I love that I don't use. You have things that you love that you don't use. Yes. Okay. I have things that I love that I've lost. Okay. Both of those things are not with me currently, or I can choose not to be using them or with them. Does it make sense? Yeah. Okay. So I walk past my bike all the time in the morning. I choose your motorbike. Yes. Okay. I choose.

And sometimes I can go four months without gliding the one. But it's there. But if I wake up one day and it's no longer there, the feeling of it not being there won't be horrible to me. Oh, damn. Because I deal with it all the time. I look at my daughter. She turns 16. Now started grade 11. My daughter is 16 now? Yes. She's turning 17 in September. You know, this is probably one of the reasons I don't want kids. They just make time move, man.

The only time I feel like time has moved is when I think of how old people's children are. Dude, your daughter to me is still like a five-year-old. Yes.

Because you met me a year before she was born. Yeah. Yes. So to me, she's still... Yeah, that five-year-old that you saw. Smart five-year-old. Yeah. 16. Yeah, 16. So I look at her and I look at how she thinks and how she processes things. And she's taught me that letting go is actually the best thing you can do. She's been with me, obviously, forever. Yeah. And we've lived in different places and different houses. And she's at different rooms. And she's changed schools two, three times in her life. But the way she moves around the universe...

amazes me all the time she looks at life as something that's going to happen anyway

She looks at life as something that's going to happen. Yeah, she doesn't look at it as a thing that's going to happen if she does something. Yeah, okay. I understand what you mean. So I've started to look at life like that. When I see something new and exciting, I move towards it. When I was at the parking lot, I walked around cars because I love cars. That was the best part of my job. When I went into the mall, I faced abundance. When it happened once a month when I was young or once after four months when my mom takes me to town, now it happened every day.

When I started doing comedy, I realized you can hang out with your friends and laugh all the time. We had more fun offstage than onstage. We would travel and then someone pays for it. We would sleep in a hotel and someone pays for it. And then people would pay to hear me talk for 15 minutes and I would go back and I would still have fun and time with my friends. So all of my jobs and my choices were all linked to my passions. I've never had a job I hated.

I've never had a job that landed me in places I didn't want to be in. I've been fortunate in that way. I'm abundant in so many. Our friendship led me to so much abundance. I got to experience being in a private jet with you. I got to experience in a penthouse. Man, I got to experience those things through you, through our friendship and our love for comedy and our pure natural gift that was just to stand in front of people and have a good time. So when I close my checking account every night, that's what I do. I look at the things and the people that I love

And I go, did they bring me closer to my passions and my joy and things that I would have never come close to had I not had these things? And I go, your job is done. So it's not different from the water of cash my mom had. And then she'll say, if someone comes and needs something, take it from there. Don't ask too many questions. They came because there's a need, but they know that you have it. So I send everyone to you and I say, he has it, go get it. It's an interesting lesson to learn. So I choose to do that. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

I know that I'm loss averse. Yes. But I think I'm also lucky that I haven't lost much in life. Like I realized this when my grandmother died. It was a crazy realization. I've never lost a loved one. It was a huge loss. Like I've genuinely never lost a loved one. Yeah. And then I started thinking differently about everyone in my life who has. Because I was like, damn, this is...

For me, it was even like a, it felt like a slither of a feeling that another human being could have because my grandmother died at the age of 96, 96, 97. So, you know what I mean? In a weird way, I wasn't around for all of it, but like you have like a hundred years to prepare, you know, like we always think of a hundred as this magical number, but

I was like, we knew she was going and she was healthy till the day she died, died in her sleep. The way you dream of going peacefully, gone, go to bed. Good night, everybody. See you tomorrow. Jokes on you. There's no tomorrow. She was gone. You know what I mean? But the feeling that I had was like, I couldn't believe what I was experiencing, like the grief, the loss, the, all of that. So are you saying that you don't have that experience? You don't have that feeling? I do, but I processed it quicker because I know it was going to happen anyway. So it's my choice to live in it.

So when it happens, I immerse myself in the feeling and then let the feeling pass through me. So what I used to do before, I would let the things get stored in me. I had this huge anxiety when I was growing up of what's going to happen to me after school.

And it ruined most of my high school life. Literally after school. Like every day you go, what's happening when the bell rings today? No, no, when school finishes. Oh, like school as a concept. When high school finishes. Yeah, when high school is done. And I look back and I have these gaps in my memory of what fun I could have had in high school had I not had that worry. If someone had a crystal ball to show me how my life would have turned out,

I would have enjoyed every moment of that school. It was the best time I've ever had, but I was too concerned. You know, I was worried about what's going to happen because in my world, people who did well were people who were educated, who were successful, you know, who studied something and got a job. So my chances were lower and lower and lower as I saw myself getting to grade 11. Because of the school you went to. Exactly. And then I knew that my chances of being successful. So when I was in a car park, I was like, I can be happy by proxy.

I'm here. I'm looking at these fancy cars. I'm around them all day long and I get paid to be here. I love music. I listen to music and then I get paid to be here. I walk around the mall. I get paid to be here. I do comedy. I get paid to do this. I chose a path. It was either do the worrying and die or do what I love and just live. But I chose that because it was my only option. I had to learn the lessons and remember them from my mom. So I just carried them through.

So you're able to apply that to inanimate and animate objects. So the loss of anything and anyone. Yes. Do you process it the same or is there a difference? Or give me an example of like something you've lost, like a thing that you loved versus a person that you've loved. And then I want to understand like how you process it or is it the exact same way? It's the exact same way. Because remember, if I lose a watch that I loved and I wore every day,

Right? Sentimental value as I remember the things that I did to get the watch. Right. I remember the places I wore the watch in. Those memories are with me. So the watch is with me because I never wore it to my sleep. I never wore it to a shower. So the watch is with me. When my son passed away, I also realized in the three months, I spent the most amount of time with him to even the day before he passed away. It was just the two of us for a few hours. The last picture I took was when we were just together.

In a room. How old was he when he passed away? Three months. Damn. So when I think of that loss, whether it's a watch or a loved one, I think of what do I miss about not having this person around? Grief is an extended phase of regret. Things that we never got to do with that person. I got to do all I could do at the time that he had. Had I been absent for three months and he passed away in three months...

I would have been so distraught because I would have nothing to miss. But now I miss him, the person that he was, because I knew him. If I lose my watch, I miss my watch. I don't miss the things that the watch did for me. It's an object. It told time, another object can tell time. If it was about a money, I can buy another one. But him, there's no more time that I could have extended with him. It ran its course.

I'm not dealing with guilt of something I did wrong or something I could have done better. But I was going, I wish we could do more. But when I look at my daughter, I go, we can do more. She's here now. Oh, wow. Right? If I look at a watch, I go, there are more watches. I can go buy another one. But I can't cry for things that never happened. How do you think that affected you?

how you are a father with your daughter after losing your son. She became my parent. We have this running joke here in Iowa. I say, in our life before this one, she was my mom. And then now I get to pay her back. But it looks like she still has to do it again. She was just a happy person every time. I would look forward to the day she comes back from school. And then she would high five me and tell me all sorts of stories. She had no time for my sadness. Like I would be like...

today, she'd be like, let me tell you now. Then she would go on and on. Then it became my exercise to remember her friends' names because now I didn't want to be left behind in a story. And I was like, this person is laughing. She's smiling. And she only met her brother the day he passed away at the hospital when he was certified dead.

Damn. So this kid who faced that, what I had, I had three months of seeing him because he was incubated, but he couldn't have contact because he was born too early. So obviously a child would have brought germs into the house. So he couldn't be in the same room with her. So the only time you saw her was then. So I compared our losses. And in retrospect, you must think of it this way. As a sibling, she would have had more time with him than I would have ever had as a parent. He would have outlived me.

So she has never had that three months with him, but I had. So what right did I have to wallow in self-pity when all I could be doing now is telling her about how great this person was? Because she's telling me about strangers at school and about how great they are. And here we are. And then she was there teaching me how to be strong. She was my mom again with that word of cash saying, yeah, spend it on things that matter. And if someone comes and asks for it, give it to them generously. Don't ask questions, just share.

She was that person for me and she still is for me. When I was walking down now to come into the car, she was like, do you have your phone? And I was like, yes. Do you have something for your lips? Yes. Do you have a power bank? Yes. She was like, fit check. There's a beautiful saying. I don't remember where I heard this.

I think it was actually Esther Perel. And we're having this conversation and we're talking about like children and life and everything. And she said one of the most beautiful things ever. She said, one of the most underappreciated aspects of having a child is that it forces you to forget yourself. Oh, that's deep.

And I remember being like, well, wait, what do you mean? And she said, no. She said, you take for granted that until you are responsible for the life of another human being or another creature really, the only life you're responsible for is your own. And so you live the most selfish of existences, whether you like it or not. I'm hungry. I'm tired. I'm sad. I'm happy. I want to do this. I do not want to do this.

It's only when you introduce another human being or living being into your life that you're responsible for, that you have to, if you are any type of decent person, you neglect that now. You forego it. Yeah, you forego it. It's a better word. Yeah, you forego it. It's a different type of meaningful and it's like a, in a weird way, it's a stupid thing. But I think of people when they get dogs, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty understandable. Yeah, because a person gets a dog.

And then now they have to go and walk the dog. They have to go outside. They have to, but in a weird way, the have to pushes them out of themselves. So there's a day you didn't want to go for a walk. Now you're walking. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I see that with people and their kids, especially people who have either learned the lesson or have had the opportunity to fully learn the lesson. Absolutely, yeah. They forget themselves and in a weird way then get to meet other versions of themselves that they forgot. Life is about us meeting our teachers.

Life does not have built-in meaning. Life is meaningless. And you see that when you lock yourself in a room and do nothing. Everything else happened without you.

Traffic happened, restaurants were open. Until you get out the room and interact with the world, then meaning happens. Then you walked a long distance, then you ate this great thing, then you played pickleball with your friends. So life has no built-in meaning. We give it meaning. But what makes life interesting is we're here to learn lessons and we keep meeting our teachers along the way. And one of the reasons why I think our friendship, you and I, has endured so long, and it's actually almost the same age as my daughter's relationship, is because of your childlike nature.

You look at the world with wonder. You don't look at anything as impossible. I remember one time you and I were driving somewhere and we were stuck in traffic and you said, Eugene. And I said, yes. Because that's how we talk to each other. You said, you know what we must do? And I said, what? You said, we must buy a plane. Oh, that sounds like me. I said, eh? You said, yes, we must buy a plane. And I was like,

planes are expensive you said yeah yeah but they're small ones you know you can buy a Cessna you know what we can do if four comedians come together and we put a hundred a hundred a hundred a hundred if we need to go somewhere then we can just fly the plane then I was like but what if we need to go different yeah then we'll book shows then we can all fly in together we can fly in fly out then we'll make it home again you're like yeah then I was like okay

There are many times that you and I did things. I mean, we never did. Yes. Just for anyone listening. But this was because we were very far from even the idea of buying a plane. But fast forward 13 years later. No, no, no. I'm with you. You see what I'm saying? So you've always had that. The day you immigrated to America, I remember I was at your house. You said, come over. And then I came. Then we played Army of Two. And then you're like, oh, I have to go now. Then I was like, where are you going? You're like, I'm going to America. Yeah.

Then I was like, is there a restaurant? Can I come too? What's going on? And you're like, no, no, I'm... Then you packed your bag, you switched off the thing and you're like, oh, you can have these games. I'm not going to play them anymore. I was like, are you really leaving? You're like, yeah. Then I was like, but what time do you need to be there? You're like, I need to be there 30 minutes ago. LAUGHTER

Then there you were in great tracksuit pants. You were gone. You went to go start a new life and a new career elsewhere. And I always looked at you and I go, I was telling a friend of mine, when you first started to become prominent in American culture or in the American space, I said, this guy would have been successful even though he was a plumber.

Comedy did not help him become successful. TV did not help him become successful. No, thank you, man. With anything, it would have been fine because he just looks at things like a kid. He looks and he goes, tinkers, he opens at the back and he touches this thing. With America, he was like, where's the most comedy clubs? Where's the most comedy clubs?

You narrow it down to a place. Okay, how many shows can I do? Okay, how many people can I see? Okay, how many, how many, how many, how many, how many? You look at things like that. And I always look at your life and I go, if I was like you, I would have been where you are. If you were like me, you would have been where I am. The wonder and the beauty of how we are as two people is we're not alike. That's why you and I can sit and speak about everything but comedy. We speak about cars. We speak about life.

So I'll always have time for a person who looks at life like that. And I think we've both shared that. So it's funny. I think of, when I think of comedy and how we shared it, it was the same thing. We both had a deep love for comedy.

The idea of the... Because what made comedy specifically unique at that time in South Africa was... Yes. It wasn't a thing. No. Like a thing thing. No. Do you know what I mean? If you said to anyone in South Africa, your parents, your friends, anyone, I'm going to be a comedian. I'm going to do comedy. People were like, what is that? Right? And there was like a few people...

not even a generation, a few people, a few years ahead of us who were doing it. You know, the David Gowes and the John Flismases and all these. But it wasn't like a long... It wasn't a thing. Yeah, it wasn't a thing. It wasn't, you know, a long-history tradition. So what I loved was we were a ragtag group of enthusiasts who,

You know, like hobbyists. That's what we were doing when we were doing comedy. We were these people standing in a field with homemade airplanes and we're throwing them and being like, how far can yours go? So what I've learned is if you turn the wings like this and if, do you get what I'm saying? And it's funny because I think you have kept that more than anybody I know. You might say I have childlike wonder. You are the most hobbyist

obsessed person I know. I don't know anyone who's had more hobbies than you. Everything from trail riding motorbikes, racing, race bikes on a track,

shooting guns at a range started golf now you started golf wow there we go golf then you went through like a running phase like you were doing like 20 kilometers 10 kilometers then you I mean now that I say it out loud I feel like you're turning into a white person this has been a long journey I'm actually only now that I'm saying it like looking at it I'm like wait a minute

Eugene. Oh, man. When I look at what you're doing. Oh, boy. No, but you, but you, yeah. You and her taught me that. Adventure. That's what it is. Go for it. That's what it is. You've always been the adventure person. Yeah. You show me that all the time. When I see you doing something, I'm like,

Adventure does pay off because you go on this wild and you look at... Yeah, but no, no. But where we're different though is, and this is why I admire you, where we're different is you... It's an admiration contest. Yeah. And we'll see who wins. You... I think one thing that's always inspired me about you... I'd like to exclude myself from that competition. Ryan is out. There's no admiration I hold for any of you. And you know what, Ryan? That's what I love about you is you don't need to compete with other people. That's why I admire you.

And now it's time for today's self-care toolkit segment brought to you by Amazon. Whether it's delivering medication to your door with Amazon Pharmacy or 24-7 virtual care with Amazon One Medical, thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. Okay, can we talk about comfort food when you're sick? Because I feel like that's when logic leaves the building. All logic.

Like, you'd think being sick would make you eat something mild and healthy. No, no, for some reason, when I'm under the weather, I'm like, you know what sounds good right now? A giant plate of fries and three different kinds of sauce. You mix the sauce and it confuses the disease.

I don't know, there's something about being sick that makes your cravings totally unhinged. Maybe it's just me. And it's different for everyone. For some people, it's toast and tea, I've heard. For others, it's mac and cheese or pho and ice cream. Yes, I've actually heard that. Ice cream with pho while coughing. I think part of it is just nostalgia, you know? Maybe it's our brains wanting to feel better and food as memory.

You know, that one soup your grandmother made or whatever your parents gave you as a kid when you stayed home from school. Maybe that's what it is. Psychological reward for sickness. So maybe it's not about the food making you better. Maybe it's just about making you feel better. And that's just as important. Mmm. Mmm. So profound. Well, we hope you gave you some ideas for your self-care routine. Today's self-care toolkit segment was brought to you by Amazon.com.

Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. You've always inspired me and you've always reminded me to focus on being successful at living life, which is something that I think sometimes we forget as people. Because I've always been good at living work.

You know what I mean? Like I'm really good at that. Plumbing, electrician, you name it. I remember someone once said to me, they're like, what would you do if you wouldn't do comedy? And I was like, I'm like anything. I would do anything. You'd be great at it. Because I'm like, yeah, anything, something has to be done. You know, I remember my mom said to me one day. That's good. Something has to be done. It's true. Something has to be done. I love that. My mom and I were driving, I don't know, from church or somewhere. It was probably from church. We only really drove to church together. But we're in the car and my mom said to me,

She's like really angry. And she's like, look, look at these. How can people be unemployed? And I was like, mom, what do you mean? How can people be unemployed sometimes? And then my mom said, there's always something to be done. My mom said to me, she said, you look in your life. She said, before you say there's nothing to be done, just go for a walk and look around you. There's something to be done. I was a teenager at this time, but I was like, mom, that's not true. Sometimes there's nothing. And then while we were driving, she said, okay, let's look on the street. What needs to be done? I was like, well, what do you mean? She's like, look at the street. What needs to be done?

I was like, I don't know. And then she said, does that grass look like it's been cut? I was like, no. She's like, so clearly that needs to be done. She said, so if you go to that house and you say, let me cut your grass. And I said, yeah, but what if they don't pay me? She said, yeah, then you can still cut it though. It will be done. It'll be done. And she said, and you'll go and you'll cut and you'll cut. And she said, eventually, eventually, somebody is going to pay you to cut grass. She said, go and look for things to be done because there's always something to be done. The phrase my mom hated, and I still like, I actually have to like work on the opposite now is,

Whenever my mom, like my mom, the phrase she hated was, there's nothing to do. I have nothing to do. She's like, there's always something to be done. What do you mean? But what that meant was, it meant that I've always been completely comfortable in work. In the doing. In the doing, but the doing in one specific place. Yeah. But you have always shown me like, I mean...

First time I rode like mountain bikes In South Africa Was with you Oh yeah Do you know what I mean Yes that day Like we Like And I think funny enough That's maybe One of the things That you blessed me with In comedy is Had I not met you Because we We literally started comedy About a week apart 100% In parallel universes Literally You were there that day And I wasn't there And I was there that day You were not there But literally a week apart We started comedy In the same venue In the same city In the same country right And

But I think the thing you blessed me with in comedy is you always reminded me to keep it as a hobby. Like always. You've almost always been allergic to it being a job. In fact, every time people have tried to make it a job, I almost feel like you get offended in a weird way. And had you not done that with me, I think I would have let comedy be a job. And then if you let that happen, oftentimes the joy and the wonder that you experience in the thing goes away. Yes. It's a have to.

Yeah. It's a have to and not a want to. Our job as humans, we have to tap into our DNA and remember why we are here. Why do you think we're here? To live and fix the things that we didn't do the last time.

I think our lives are a continuous journey. Our souls know why we're here. This body is just a vessel. We're just here to remember. There's times when we find passions and we find places that we're familiar with, but we don't know from where. It's because we've been here before. We're trying to remember. And that's what makes life interesting for me. When I go to a place and I'm like, this is interesting. I'm like, I remember. There must have been something great here.

That happened somewhere, sometime. Yeah. That brings me back here again. And I live in that world of wonder where I go, I've been here before. I've done this thing before. That's why when I lose something, I'm like, I must have had it before and I had it again and it was time for it to go so something can happen now. I need to feel something. My job in this world with this vessel, with this body, with all of the friends and the environment that it has brought me in is to feel something. If I feel happy, I know I'm feeling. You know, it's so funny you say this. Mm-hmm.

One of the most transformative thoughts I've ever experienced as a person was, I think I was in Sweden and I was on a mushroom trip, right? And you're having this beautiful experience, connecting with yourself, connecting with others. But one of the things that really hit me was the idea of energy, right?

And I'm not a woo-woo person per se. I'm not very spiritual. I think you're more spiritual than I am. No. No, I think you are. And in a good way. And I think you remind me of that sometimes. I can be very didactic. Ironically, to go back to the Bible, if you look at the Trinity, it's like, yeah, there's the mind, there's the body, and then there's the spirit. This thing that exists in a world that you can't really... You don't think it and you don't feel it, but it is. And the thought that I had was,

Everything that's happening in the universe is energy. But like actual, like even physics energy. I'm not saying like, ah, it's energy. I'm saying it's actual energy. Right? Yeah, but I'm not saying that. What did you add? A sound effect? Is that album still available? Oh, it's energy. No, I don't mean that. A sound effect. I don't mean, not even dismiss it to that, but I don't mean that. And I was thinking to myself once, it almost feels like our purpose and our idea, and it's funny that you just said that, is...

To express the idea of what it means to be. Mm-hmm.

by being in relation to. So I think of light as a good example. I always find it crazy because physics is such a complicated thing. My brain, I really struggle to understand it. I listen to it and I remember things, but I go, I don't understand it. But one of the craziest concepts to me is the fact that I'm not seeing you. I'm seeing the light that is reflected off you. So when we see a flower, we're not seeing the flower really. We're seeing the light that the flower is reflecting.

And when you expand that sort of infinitely, you know, throughout time, you go, that is what we all are. What we all are is reflections of energy and light that is helping us to experience the thing that is happening. And then to your point, I remember thinking, huh, I was like, what if the idea of what we call God or this thing that we've all, you know, in different religions, different places, different whatever's we want to call it. What if it itself is,

is trying to experience the thing and that's why everything is yeah do you know what i mean 100 it makes total sense it's just that as people we avoid that because it will now make us question everything that we are the choices that we made the people that we know the places that we've been yeah and i think of all of that as an experiment like i go so it's a giant experiment we're in a petri dish yeah and someone is busy going i think of it as a giant experiment 100 true you know

It's 100% true. Like, actually, I think of it like when scientists shoot lasers or they shoot like even a telescope. What you're doing is you're getting a reflection of something, right? You're getting light from a far distance away and you're getting information from it. And I wondered like we could literally be the lasers that are being sent to come back with information. So,

You driving the way you drove In a weird way I know this sounds crazy But in a weird way You're teaching the entire human race How to drive Yes And then you eating Like I always go I'm so grateful to people Who ate certain foods And died So that I know Which foods I can eat I think of it for pets I'm like the first person That tried to tame a wolf Yeah

Now we have puppies. It's pretty crazy. By the way, have you seen... Doing it for you, Trevor. So you can walk in a mall with this thing one day. Have you seen the videos of those guys who still do that now? Who try to tame wolves? No, not try. Who tame wolves? Not tame, Eugene. What do you mean? There's these videos of people who are out in the mountains. Then they see wolves. Then they call the wolves like dogs. And then the wolf is not, obviously, it's not a dog. But it like looks at them. It approaches them.

And it's actually quite amenable to you as a person. And then they start playing with it. And then you see the wolf going, what is this that I'm experiencing? This is good. Yeah. Why is this clothed monkey making me feel good? Yes. Like that's what the wolf is experiencing. And...

And then like they say that this is probably how it happened, et cetera, et cetera. Domestication. Yeah, domestication, et cetera. But it's amazing to see that stuff. It's still like that. Did you say we're dating? Wow. I don't know. Look, one concept that blew my mind away and also changed my life was when I read somewhere, I don't remember where, where it says everything that you're experiencing is what you want to experience.

So everyone in my life is a character that I created for me to have the sum total of a life experience with feelings and emotions. Damn. And a quick fast forward to the journey that I need. What I signed up for before I was born, I knew which characters must come into play for me to achieve what I need to achieve. Damn. So for you to be here in a room with me is because I wanted it to happen. In the back of my mind,

Somewhere in my lesson, in my past life, this should have happened so that I can lead to something else. Same with you. So we keep meeting these soul families, a group of five individuals that will make a great impact in your life as you go along. So even if it's the first stage of your life, there'll be five that you can mention that matter. As an adolescent, there'll be five that matter. In your career, there'll be five that matter. Those are soul groups. So those are people that come into your life and they exist purely for your assistance.

They're here to push you. They're here to teach you. Even heartbreak is a lesson.

Not all good time. That's why I was asking you in the beginning, why do you think pain features so much in the Bible? It's because heartbreak is an accelerant. Hurt and pain and loss is an accelerant to feeling something. You can be comfortable all your life and not feel anything else. But as soon as you feel loss and pain, you will remember that you also had a good time. So that's what pain and suffering is for. But suffering is voluntary. So you're suffering, you choose it and use it as a medication. You take it in doses so that you can remember how good you have it.

Someone in a hospital right now who has no chance of leaving doesn't have this privilege that you and I have to walk downstairs, to walk around, get in the car, press buttons. And that's all they want at this moment. But they've had it maybe for 50 years and never cared for it. But the suffering accelerated the memory of the good times that they had. So if you think about life like that, you can walk around the mall and see hundreds of people. But if you think about how many people you've called and sat with and chatted with, in most cases, they won't exceed number five.

It's a group of people that you can rely on and trust and they always accelerate you to go further. And those are the people that will bring heartache, they'll bring laughter, they'll bring lessons, they'll bring admiration and adoration at the same time because you need those two to balance. As much as you admire someone, someone needs to adore you. That's when the base romantic relationships work, when there's a hot man in the group.

Someone gets admired And someone adores the other person They adore the fact that they admire them And they admire them for the fact that they adored them So that's how things work This balance that we're always seeking And just knowing that once you start feeling something

then something is happening. Growth is pain. Kids go through that all the time. Oh, my elbow. Oh, my back. Because they're growing. Then they go and rest and everything feels better again. But as adults, what do we do? We just go and try to make pain not exist because we feel like when we're feeling pain, we failed. And when you're feeling pain, you're growing. When you're tired, like we walked the other time and we felt it, yeah, then we did something. I think it's the ultimate dilemma though. 100%. I'll tell you why I think it's the ultimate dilemma is because

I think we should be careful to not make life about pain. And I'm not saying you're saying that, by the way. No, absolutely. But I have noticed there's been a... And maybe this is not a new thing, but just generally, I've noticed a lot of people...

seem to use pain as the meaning. Do you know what I mean? They go, that's why we're here. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Pain is part of the experience, but I think we should be careful to not make pain the experience. Do you get what I'm saying? And the reason I say this is because we should also remember in the same way that we can not only exist in fun, good, easy, comfortable, warm. We also don't exist in

Cold, boring, hard, painful. We don't exist like that. Look at animals throughout Africa. Why do they migrate? Think of the fundamental concept of migration.

It's an animal going, oh, this land is about to become arid. It is about to become cold. It is about to become unlivable. We're going to go seek out another place. And oftentimes, to your point, that journey is hard. But the thing that they're seeking is not hard. And so sometimes I get like a little, there's like a little spidey sense that hits me the wrong, the way I go like, sometimes I go like, guys, I think we're learning the

the wrong lesson or we're applying the lesson incorrectly because people will be like, I'm looking for the pain and you're not saying that but I'm saying, you go like, pain's a lesson, I love that but people go, no, I look for pain, I look for the thing, then I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I argue, looking for the thing on the other side, looking for the rainbow, getting to it is the pain. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, the journey. That is the pain. You want to go and see the view from the highest peak. Yes. The hike is the pain but it...

I get a little thrown off when people now sell the pain and they make it seem like that is the... It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Understand that that is part of it. You cannot get to a tall peak without experiencing the pain of the hike. And when you get there, as you say, funny enough, I love it. That's a beautiful way to put it. It's an accelerant. That pain of the walk makes you appreciate the view even more because you're like, wow,

I can't believe this because I don't get to see it. And my knees, my legs, my body, my feeling, my whatever, you know? You know, the thing is, the average person does not know the difference between suffering and pain. The first time I came across that was, it was Viktor Frankl, I think. Really? Yeah. Viktor Frankl, who was a psychotherapist and he was a Holocaust survivor. And I remember reading his work and he developed a lot of it, I think, in the Holocaust. And he said, what he learned there was pain is real, suffering is a choice. Mm-hmm.

And a lot of people were angry at this. And he said, no. And he said, I realized this in the concentration camp. He said, these Nazis were there and they were wanting to exterminate me and my people. And he said, but every day I was like, I can smile if I want to smile. And I can choose to enjoy my day. Now, people, if you say that, people were like, that's crazy. But he was like, no, no, no.

He's like, this to me is real. Yes. This part of my reality, I'm defining. This conversation. Yeah. And you know, when you realize how real it is to your point, the pain and suffering, I always think of it in traffic. Depending on how you feel, traffic is either just a thing that is happening or it is the end of your life. Like I even think of it like this funny enough, like a podcast is a great example.

When I have a podcast that I'm listening to, that I'm enjoying, there is no traffic.

There's literally no traffic. I'm listening to a conversation and I'm driving. Sometimes I get angry that I get there sooner than I was anticipating. Because this thing is happening. Because I haven't finished the episode. Now I'm sitting in a parking lot going, oh man. Now I have to leave these friends of mine. Oh man. Oh man. I thought there was going to be more traffic. Yeah, but you get what I'm saying? Now I've either reached the house that I was going to or I've reached the destination, the office that I was driving to.

But I'm angry that there wasn't enough of the traffic because I enjoy listening in a car. It's your perspective. You know what I'm saying? But if I'm trying to get somewhere, now all of a sudden I don't have a podcast and traffic is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And so to your point, funny enough, that's where it's pain versus suffering. Right? The pain is real. Yes, your Wi-Fi is slow. Right?

But you're not suffering. Yes. So animals know this better than anyone. So they migrate because they know that if they stay here, they're going to suffer. And that's optional.

So they walk towards the pain so they can avoid the suffering. So that's what the thing is. So it's an accelerant in that way that we need to walk towards it. But if you stay, you suffer. So suffering is always regret of things you would have done had you enjoyed the pain. Yo, damn, that's deep. I thought I was talking to a comedian. Yo, I wasn't prepared for this. Oh, man.

No, I wasn't ready. That's a deep one, man. So you're there doing it. Yeah, no. But just say that again. So suffering is if you stay and then pain is what you go through when you walk away from suffering. So it's like you choose, do you,

Because it's going to be regret. No, you can apply it to everything. Yeah, it's going to be regret and suffering. Going to the gym is painful. Painful. Being overweight is suffering. Being unhealthy and dying. Yeah. And making other people have to live through that. No, and not being able to walk upstairs, carry your kids, lifting. You're suffering. Yes. Should I have met, should I have cancelled and said, ah, I'm busy and I didn't go. Now I'm in a city and suffering and regret. Who could have been doing this? I could have just been here.

I walk towards it. I had to do this. I had to do that. Yeah, I don't want to get up now. Oh, should I get dressed now? Oh, let me go. Then I'm here. Then the pain. Then I'm here at the mountaintop, like you said, and I'm looking at this view. Animals do it instinctually. They know that if they stay, they suffer.

If they move, they feel pain, but it's ultimately worth it because it's an accelerant to good times. Always when you have to have a little bit of pain, the reward is far greater. So when people have become numb, like you said, that's where the pain starts. That's where the meanness in people is. That's where the impatience is. That's where the intolerance is. Because we now avoid suffering and pain at the same time. Now you're living, now you're numb. So that's why I say when the day finishes and I'm in pain, I know that I did something nice. Not

Not when I have regret. I shouldn't have gone there. Why did I even go? I shouldn't have gone. Why? But if I'm going, oh, my neck. Oh, this. Oh, my finger. Because of doing this all day. Oh, this and that. I've never regretted those days. I always wake up the next morning and go, I know exactly why this part is so...

But because that pain accelerated me to learn a new skill and learn how this person, we've sat in cars so many times, you and I. And then we don't like sitting in cars, but we love cars. And in the car, we know that we play music in the background and I've always criticized your music choice. But it allows conversation because we're not just saying, I know. It allows conversation. I was playing there Tchaikovsky and all these. And I'm like, Trevor, is this an elevator? He like sort of.

And then we're there, we have these conversations, we're in a contained environment, in traffic, like you said, but we don't see the traffic. And we get to have these conversations extendedly. But then when I look at myself, I'm like, I hate being in a car for that long. But when we're together, we're having this conversation. It accelerated that for us. It facilitated that. So when we start looking at people, events, time, our bodies and objects as an accelerant for us to remember who we really are and what we're here to do, then life becomes this journey where regrets don't exist anymore.

Because everything that happened that I didn't enjoy was accelerating me to my growth. And why would I hate something that made me grow? I loved all of it. That one, missing that half, most of the day of school that day had homework to catch up on. I couldn't trade that for the world when I'm sitting with my mom. I often think when I was 10 years old, my mom had just turned almost 40. She was young. She took the time. She could have hung out with her friends. I'm 43 right now.

She could have hung out with her friends, you know? It is weird to think about how young our parents were. Yeah, but she chose to. Yeah. She made sure she swapped shifts with someone. She took that shift. She would take me and we would hang out. She'd listen to... So I think of those times and I go, if I think of the homework that piled up and my friends were telling me about the soccer match that they had after school, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking about the time I laid in the grass with my mom in the park.

And I'm like, I couldn't swap that for the world. Now I appreciate the effort she put into making sure that she accelerates my growth. By feeling that little bit of pain of homework catch up, she accelerated me in knowing who I really am. I love nature. I love being at the outside. I love being at the park. I love laughing. I love dreaming and just lying there and looking up and having a good time. So when I look at my life in my late 30s and 40s and I look at my life in my 10s and I'm like, there was always grass.

There was always a park. I was at Burgers Park, a park in Pretoria that's derelict. And I got to spend time in the most prestigious park in the world that people dream of going to. And I got to lie in the grass there and daydream again about my life. And things that I thought of three years ago in that park, I have them now. So I'm not wrong. Somewhere, somehow, there's energy that's vibrating towards helping me get to where I'm going. What do you do when you feel disconnected from that? Because I...

And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm even projecting. But I think one of the things I've noticed you and I both share is there'll be moments where we feel disconnected from that. And then it's like, you don't want to go outside. You don't want to be part of the world. And you don't want to see the thing. And you know what I mean? How do you get back to that? I look at pictures. Phones are the greatest invention ever. I look at places that I've been to. And I remember the feelings that I had there. Then I go, what is the quickest way I can replicate this if I can't go there?

Then I'll find a patch of grass and I'll find a park. Then I'll find sunshine. I'll wear my walking shoes and I'll start walking for kilometers and kilometers. You've got walking shoes? Yes. What are they? Adidas shoes. But I use them for walking. It's just walking shoes? No, they're running shoes, but I use them for walking. Oh, I thought it's like this is the only thing they can do. Like if someone chased you, you're like, hey, buddy. You chose the wrong day, man. Oh, snap. Oh, man. I got my walking shoes on. Oh, I would have gotten away from you. Oh, man.

When I look at those and I put them on, I know I'm going to walk now and I know what that means to me and what I'll remember. The thing that we do worst in our lives is not to remember. We must remember. You and I have memories between us. We don't have anything physical. Yeah.

Nothing at all. But we have memories. We go, that guy, there was this time when we did this. Then we laugh. Then we move on to other people and other things. And then after that, we remember things that they did. And we come back to the memory again. Remember that thing. So that's all I have. So when I feel like,

dive deep into that hole of suffering. Then I realized this is self-imposed. My bike is outside. My thing is there. My daughter's in the other room. My PlayStation. So I go, why are you choosing this? And I go, yeah, but yeah, but I go look at my sneakers and I go, I can wear those to go outside right now. And it's within my grasp and reach. And I tell you now, whenever I walk, I see the cars that I love.

I see a Porsche 911 driving past and I'm going, if I was in my room, I would never seen this. Is this a coincidence? There's a, so there's a French philosopher. He talks about luck and the surface areas of luck. Wow. Right? I know I'm going to butcher some of it, but I remember it for the most part. Essentially what he talked about, and this was like a long time ago, but what he talked about was how

Luck is always happening. It's continuous. Okay. However, there are different types of luck that you can choose to participate in. I love that. And so he said, the first type of luck is dumb luck.

pure chance has nothing to do with you. And that luck is who you were born to, when you were born, where you were born, what you look like. There's certain things where it's like, hey man, things that are outside of your control, completely outside of your control. You were born in the Philippines. Okay, you were born in the Philippines. You were born in Estonia. Okay, you were born in Estonia. That's it, right? That's like a dumb luck.

Then the second type of luck that he talks about is luck of motion. And this is where things start to get interesting. So he goes, there's luck that happens to you merely because you start moving, right? Both literally and figuratively, there's luck of motion. So if you lie in bed all day, you can never bump into somebody by chance, right?

in the mall, on the street, in a restaurant, none of it. Motion. Motion. Yeah. But now remember, it's very important to remind people and myself all the time. I go like, remember luck can be good or bad. So I'm not saying this is like a good thing. I'm just saying it is, right? Because if you don't get out of bed, you can never stub your toe. Right? Like that, yeah. So it goes both ways.

As soon as you start to increase your motion, there is going to be a higher probability of luck happening in your life. So you've created your luck. And lucky people generally are people who try and facilitate more motion in their lives because they consider themselves lucky. So you'll go, why did you buy a raffle ticket? I'm a lucky kind of guy. Then another person's like, I don't have any luck. That's why I don't even bother buying it. But that motion sets in place the effect that you then experience. Then you have the third one, which I think is like a,

lack of awareness they have different names for but lack of awareness and that one is literally what you ironically you see let's say you you did your motion you left your house you went outside the porsche drives by so you've got to experience the porsche right wrong you experienced it because of what you were aware it was there do you know what i mean so now you go wow i'm so lucky that a porsche drove by and a porsche is my favorite car

Yeah, but you're also lucky because you were aware of it. If you were walking around with your head in your phone...

and headphones on. Now you weren't aware of what was happening. So there's some people who go, I'm so lucky to have such great people in my life. Yes, but you have to be aware that you have great people in your life. Otherwise, you're not going to be lucky to have great people in your life. Awareness is one of the key ones, the awareness of luck. And that again, that awareness can go the other way. If you are aware of the negative more than you are aware of the positive, you will feel like you have terrible people in your life. You

You have terrible things happening to you. You live in a terrible country. You know what I mean? People like that. I'm amazed, by the way, when I travel the world, regardless of where I go, there are some people who think they're living in the greatest country ever and some people who think they're living in the worst country. In the same country. Doesn't matter where I go. I've talked to Americans who say,

This is, oh my God, I can't believe, I'm so lucky to be in America. I mean, have you seen this country? And then I talked to Americans who are like, I can't, I mean, this is the worst country. I wish I could live anywhere else. Then I'm like, so the two of you are in the same place. What are you aware of that the other one isn't? Or what are you choosing to be aware of? So that's the luck. You've got dumb luck, luck of motion, luck of awareness. And then the last one, this reminds me of you, is luck of uniqueness or luck of specialization.

And this is a luck that will only happen to you if you choose to engage in something that requires an active and specialized thought. You are way less likely to meet Lionel Messi if you are not in football. Do you know what I mean? Not saying you will or won't, but I'm saying you're way less likely to meet Lionel Messi if you're not in football. You're way less likely to meet a Supreme Court justice of the United States if you're not in law.

And Trevor Noah is less likely to meet Eugene Koza if they're not both in comedy. Comedy was our uniqueness. Can I add something after your dumb luck?

When I came back from PE two years ago, I found this place on the internet without even looking, without even viewing it. I just moved in. We just moved from the beach house. The place you live in now. And then you bought the house. Right. 12 minutes away from. Yeah. Dumb luck. But no, that wasn't dumb luck, funny enough. That was luck of motion. Yes. Because you chose a place. Yes. And I chose a place. Yes. But the last one, to your point, the most important one was, even us, Ryan, if you think about it, like comedy. Comedy. We've chosen to like,

like hone in on this thing like a you know i remember i remember telling dave chapelle we um where were i think it was like his 50th birthday where this happened 50th birthday one of the other shows and anytime dave is performing somewhere and i can go i'll go and then dave loves comedy and he loves comedians so dave says to me he's like yo are you jumping on and i was like no i'm not jumping on and he's like why not then i was like dave

I'm not jumping on because I didn't come to do comedy. I came to watch comedy. And more importantly, I came to watch you as Dave Chappelle. I'm here to enjoy the show. Then he's like, no, but you got to jump on. You got to jump on. Come on. Why? Why you not jump? And he was like, and then I had to like think about it hard because he didn't, he sort of didn't understand. He was like, do you not want to jump on? Because it's my show. I was like, are you crazy? Then I realized what it was. I was like, Dave,

You have to understand that I also love this thing beyond me doing it so much that getting to come in like appreciate, because I see how much you love it. I drive joy. So if I come here and do the comedy, some of my awareness is dulled because I'm thinking of myself.

I'm thinking of my jokes. I'm thinking of my point of view, my performance. All of it. I'm thinking of me and now I get to miss you as Dave Chappelle. I get to miss arguably the greatest comedian of our generation because I just wasn't aware because I was self-aware. You know what I mean? Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this.

Those steps that you've just mentioned, what I would do before this conversation, I would club them all together into motion. Okay, got it. I would look at it as I did something and they did something and then we did something happened. Yeah. I wouldn't look at it as the way that you broke it down. It makes so much sense now. And I also feel like we've become lazy to dream. I think...

And most of us, that's the one thing we have for free, our imagination, our dreams. Just lay back and just think of what you want and it will appear in front of you. And I learned this weird concept. I was telling this friend of mine, I said, everything that I've had that I enjoyed and that I acquired immediately was I never put time to it. I said, I have this thing and I have it now and I can't wait to touch it and feel it.

And that thing happened. But there's things that I've always put far ahead in my life. And I said, yeah, one day, one day, one day, one day. Because I've been nonspecific about what I want. The thing keeps becoming a dream. And I said, I'm very aware that also that can be an addiction on itself. Postponing your own joy, success, and happiness into the future. Because somehow you feel like you yourself, you're undeserving. You're not worthy. You're not ready. So you keep saying, one day I'm going to make a lot of money. One day I'm going to...

What's a lot of money? And then you keep saying that because you don't want to be, because you want to commit yourself to it. You know, same way I don't write my set down. There's things I'd never want to commit myself to. And now I'm specific. If I want to see a 9-11, a red one, I'll say to myself and I'll see a red one.

And I'll see it twice in a day and I'll be like, yeah, I saw it because now I'm aware. Now you've made me aware. That it's my awareness that's heightened. But I also was in motion. And uniqueness. And uniqueness. And I was specific. And I also get specific about what I want. So I'm learning that now recently that I must be specific with what I want. I even see it in my mind's eye. Can I tell you why, what I think it is though? Yes. So I argue that

that most of the time the reason we're not specific with what we want is because we do not know what we want. I believe that all of us as human beings, we do not know what we want. I think we know what we don't want, but we don't know what we want. And I think if you live life thinking you know what you want,

You're going to find yourself constantly disappointed when you get there and realizing that it is not doing what you thought it would do. Yes. Right? So all of us grow up. You're a young boy, maybe some girls as well, depending on society, whatever. You go, I want a Ferrari when I grow up. But nobody has ever sat us down to say, why?

Why do you, as a four-year-old who has never paid any bill in your life, think you want a Ferrari? He doesn't even know how to drive. Why do you think you want a Ferrari? Because it's fast and because it's red. And because it's like, yeah, but why? What are all those things going to do? What is it that you... And then what happens in life? Boys grow into men.

who then work to get towards something. Girls grow into women who work towards something. And then they get the thing. They get the Ferrari. They get the wedding. They get the big house. The job. They get the job. The salary. They get all these things. And then what happens? There's a deep emptiness inside you. And that deep emptiness is the realization that the thing that you want has not made you feel like you thought it would make you feel because you never had it. So how would you know that it would make you feel that way? Because you've never had it.

And this is the thing that I literally realized this for my life. And then I challenged my friends and anyone I talked to about this. They'll go, man, I really want that thing. Then I go, why do you want it? No, because, you know, if I can, man, if I can get that job, then I go like, okay, then what will happen? I'm just going to, then I'll feel like my life is, then I'm like, you're lying. You're lying. Do you know how I know you're lying? Because you've never had the job. So how do you know that the job will make you feel that way? We all want to feel a certain way, but we don't know

what the thing is that will complement or help us feel that way. We don't know. That's what brings me to the initial subject that we started with when I said when we hang out with people that have normal jobs. Yeah. Because we get to experience their milestones from the outside. So when someone, that's what I said to you, when someone looks at a car and says, that's a nice car. Yeah. You and I remember a time when they looked at another car

and said, nice car. Oh, yeah. When we hear them going, I can't get off because of... But you and I remember a time when they wanted the gig. Yeah. But now... I hope I get this job. So that's why I said, this is coming full circle. That's where I find...

When I'm with friends that have structured normal jobs, that's where I get to measure what people's needs really are versus what they want are. Because they wanted this thing so bad. They dreamt about it. They knew if they reached this level and get this kind of a job and position, this is what it means. But when I'm with them, I don't have the time for this anymore. You know how much things here cost. The thing that they dreamt about the most. You know, it's so funny. I mean, I've never said this to anyone because it would be weird.

But you are one of the reasons I left The Daily Show. I'm sorry. Because you knew how he felt about people with jobs. What an evil man. No, you're one of the reasons. You know why? There's a conversation you and I had many years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, somewhere there. And you said to me, again, as usual, we're in a car, we were driving somewhere. And you said...

make sure you learn how to starve yourself before somebody starves you. And I was like, what? I was like, yo, this is deep. Cause like we were going to buy Nando's or something. I was like, this is a strange, is this like a euphemism for, are you telling me you're not going to pay? What is happening here? And then you said, no, you said you must learn how to starve yourself before somebody starves you. And I was like, what were you talking about? And oftentimes you'll say crazy things to me and I'm like, we're friends. So I just listened.

But when you broke it down, you said, if you have never starved yourself, you don't know what it is like to starve. And so when you are starved by somebody else or a situation, you will now be panicking because you don't know what it is like to starve. You know what I mean? So to use like a silly analogy, if you...

Lift weights. The day you need to lift something, you are familiar with lifting as a concept. Yeah, you've lifted things to yourself. You've made yourself lift heavy things. So now when you have to lift a heavy thing, you know how to lift a heavy thing and you're not like, ah. It might still be heavy, but at least you know how to lift things, right? And when you said that to me, it stuck with me and we talked a little bit more about it and we talked a little bit more about it. And I remember when I was going to leave The Daily Show, the thing that stuck with me was how...

Very few people considered the notion that I could want something that wasn't what was supposed to be wanted. People were like, but why would you leave? It's the Daily Show. And I was like, yeah, and it's a beautiful thing. They're like, yeah, but why would you leave? Then I'm like, why do I leave a park? I go to a beautiful park. But now what? So you want me to just live at Central Park now? Yeah, but it's so stunning. I would. There are people, you say that, I think you would.

But you're like, yeah, just because it's beautiful doesn't mean that it never has to end. You know, coming back to what you're saying about endings. Like literally, I'm not even joking. You taught me that like in so many ways. I was like, yeah, but when does it end? And I'm not saying you have to do it to make it end. But it's like, yeah, but when does it end? And it was so interesting having some conversations with people at The Daily Show. Some people who I said to them, I said, so are you going to be here forever? And then they would just look at me and go, no.

Oh, well, actually, and some people were honest enough to say, well, actually, there's this project that I was actually going to leave and I'm thinking of doing. So I'm like, so you two at some point are going to leave. Even like a viewer, there's some people who will say, I used to watch the show all the time. I really loved you on it. Why did you leave? Then I go, but you used to watch. When did you stop? You left. Then they go, well, I stopped after the pandemic and then, but I loved the show. Then I'm like, yes, but you stopped watching and you didn't now hate me. You just stopped watching. And that's beautiful. Yeah.

So if you are able to acknowledge and understand that things are going to start, things are going to end, things are going to be in between. Like why? Because if you're not careful, you're no longer aware. You're numb. Can I tell you, I'm eternally, eternally grateful. When I think of the daily show, I go like, man, it was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. And I've told you about it. It's like...

You want to talk about pain, one of the hardest things I've ever experienced in my life and also one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever, ever had in my life. But to stay in it beyond the pain now just turns it into like a suffering. Now you're choosing this pain. You know what I mean? I think it was actually Letterman. I think it was Letterman who said in his farewell, this is when he was announcing that he was leaving. It's like they say in this business, you know, you...

You got to know when it's time to move on. You got to know when it's time to leave. And for me, that day came and I stayed 15 years longer. And today I'm announcing that I'm leaving. But I like, and it was such a, it was a good joke, but it was like, it's a poignant thing that not many people could like really, but I connected to that. I was like, oh yeah, man, it can end. And how many of us can truly say,

That we have exercised our choice to end a thing when we could end a thing. When we wanted to. Because most of the time, life is doing things for you. Yes. When does the ride end? No, when it ends. They tell you to get off a roller coaster. You're there like, please. They're like, hey man, get off.

So you never get to choose to end a roller coaster ride. They tell you that the restaurant is closing. So you don't get to choose to like walk out when you want to walk out. Sorry, we need this table. They tell you the movie's over. You don't get to choose. Netflix tells you the season is finished. You don't choose. And if you look at it, we are experiencing fewer and fewer opportunities to choose when to end the thing and when to begin a thing, which is a weird, beautiful blessing to have because there's one thing we don't choose when to end and when to begin, and that's life.

You don't choose when your life is going to begin and you don't choose for the most part when your life is going to end. And so in like a, genuinely, that's one of the things that you've always, like I've always looked at you like a crazy person, but in a good way. I always think my friends, genuinely, most of my friends I think are crazy for different reasons. But I looked at you and I go, this guy's crazy. Why did he do, he just, so he walked away. So he stopped that. So he's not doing that. So he's not, and you're like, yeah, it is crazy only because it's not normal.

But it's not crazy because it doesn't make sense. People react to extremities all the time because we want to feel. People don't know that they want to feel something.

When they watch a football match, they want to feel something. They want to feel joy or disappointment. There's two teams playing. There's nothing worse than a boring, goalless draw. Yes. When people come to your show, they want to feel something. Sometimes they think it's laughter, but it's not. It's actually getting to know the person next to them. They want to be around normal people and hear normal conversation. People want to feel. So when people that are seen as outliers are reacting towards the universe, they're

From what they're feeling on the inside as individuals. The whole spectrum of people that they know gets to feel something simultaneously. So when you are acting on something that you're feeling inside as an individual, as Trevor, around people, myriads of them that know you that you don't know. When you're acting on your feelings, it ripples towards everyone else that knows you. You don't have to know them.

And then they start feeling something. They feel disappointment. They feel anger. They feel like you're being ungrateful because they're in places where they are feeling something. They are suffering. When are you going, no, the pain of knowing that you will feel this way is worth it for me because staying was suffering. As an individual, I had to make this decision to have this pain so I can end the suffering, so I can walk towards something else.

So we get to feel that from other people. A lot of people felt it. I was lucky enough to be around at the Daily Show on your last week.

And I could see the reaction of how it made people feel. I could feel the rumblings of the audiences before the take started to happen. I could sit with you at the office before you went on the show. Then we got to walk in the streets and go have food. And all I knew was you made the right decision. And I wish people that know you and I could know you the way I know you because they would know that that what you did came from a good place. I knew that you took care of the people that work closely with you and

And some people that will never know that you took care of them in that space, in that job, in that particular environment. You left an everlasting legacy of kindness, of working together, of having everyone have a voice. I hope so. I was in one of your writing sessions and I would feel like the energy say, something!

And then you'll be like, yeah, say, but if you don't want to also say or can also not say, but that's the culture that you bred. But those are the things that people are going to queue up and tell you about. That's what you must know innately inside of you as a human being that my reactions are always going to cause a ripple effect to people that know me that I don't know, but they're only reacting towards who I am, not what I am. Because you've changed what you were. You were a host.

But who you are is Trevor. You've changed what you were, a boss. But who you are is a friend. You've changed all of those things. And of course, there was going to be suffering. There was going to be suffering from people who don't want to let you go. But you let them go first because you're teaching them. A lot of what you guys are speaking about, a lot of them touch very similar to Buddhist principles of non-attachment, living in the now.

Without worrying too much about the future and our thoughts of suffering. Yes. Our suffering. It's suffering. It is suffering. So even if you're not suffering, you're thinking about suffering, you're suffering. But I think the main one that you guys are speaking about this, like the same thing over and over is the thought of non-attachment. So non-attachment to the job.

You know, non-attachment to financial things and worldly things. Or titles. Or titles. You know, a lot of what you guys are speaking about, I think, is non-attachment. You know, one of the biggest lessons I learned in processing leaving The Daily Show was when I'd have conversations with people on the outside and on the inside, but I realized something that we oftentimes haven't been taught. Mm-hmm.

To go back to the beginning of our conversation about loss and life, we haven't been taught that things will end and we haven't been taught to say goodbye in a healthy way. So what we do is we wait for the thing to be gone. Then we start saying goodbye. Like I'm eternally grateful to my mom and to my gran for fully accepting

preparing me for the fact that my gran was going to die even though she wasn't on her deathbed it was like hey man it's imminent and my gran would even joke about it but now it meant that while we were talking we were saying goodbye and we would say goodbye like a goodbye like hey man okay go go i'm going back to new york okay bye bye trevor okay bye bye bye bye bye i might not see you again now you're like damn you know you're like now you almost want to be like don't say that it's like but why i might not see you again

Because if you learn how to say goodbye, when the thing is still there, you get to say goodbye as opposed to always regretting that you never got to say goodbye. Starve yourself. Yeah. And I think about this with like all of it. I go, I think about like even us as people in relationships, you know, like how many of us are guilty of feeling that something is fading for another person and not saying goodbye. Instead, letting the thing die in front of them and not, you get what I'm saying? Yeah.

Because we just, we haven't been taught that. Yeah, relationship objects. Like think about companies. What have they taught people? What have companies taught people? No, you must say goodbye when you cannot work anymore. The company will retire you. When it doesn't want you anymore. Yeah, but why don't you retire the company? You can't afford it. You can't afford to starve yourself. You're not taught to us. Why don't you buy your company a pen and say like, hey man, congrats on having me for 10 years. I'm out.

I like that. By the company of him. Yeah. That's funny. Just think about how we've been taught it. You know what I mean? And by the way, it's actually interesting how like, like,

Have you seen how emotionally reactive people get to people who choose suicide? And I'm not saying sad suicide, you know what I mean? Because I think there's a difference between people who are experiencing a deep depression or they feel like the world is ending. And someone has said it beautifully, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. That's a different thing. I'm talking about somebody who goes, I have terminal cancer. Have you seen how allergic people are to euthanasia? How allergic people are sometimes to...

no you you and it's like the person goes like hey man i have a terminal illness i'm still able to move i'm still able to laugh i'm still able and i'm enjoying these things and you know what guys i've had a great time i'm out i had a good run yo people are like no how dare you you've got to fight and you've got to this and they go like no no no no i'm fine i've got to say goodbye and i want you to say goodbye and i want you to see me like this and now but the reaction that people give them

Man, and I understand it both ways, by the way. I don't think one is wrong or right, but I understand it. I understand somebody going, no, I want to say goodbye when I'm ready. But to your point, and I know I'm guilty of this, sometimes you'll never be ready because you're not practicing saying goodbye. You haven't stopped yourself. And so if you haven't practiced it and if you don't know how to say goodbye, you'll never be ready. Because then when are you ready for somebody to die? Always. Always.

but you get what i'm saying you're never ready yeah and then when it happens you then now experience the thing and now you now you had a gravestone going like i didn't say goodbye i wish i could have said this i wish i could have said this you know so it's really weird how literally you one of those people who where i go like yeah no eugene if there's one thing you taught me in life it's like yo man practice saying goodbye and i think unfortunately and in some ways fortunately because there's still the linings i guess life has like

really amplified the lesson that you've taught me through the losses you've experienced. How did the last day feel? Did it feel like you're walking out and you could come back again anytime? Did it feel like you've walked out of this door before? Or did you know you're leaving the chapter behind? The week my grandmother died was the first and only week I've canceled shows at The Daily Show. In the seven years? Yeah.

I had an appendix surgery. I came back to work. I missed one day of work, came back post-surgery. I've had knee surgeries. I've worked, you name it, through the pandemic, all of it. My grandmother dying was the first time I canceled shows at The Daily Show. And I'll never forget when I said, "Hey, man, we're canceling the shows." The network said, "Okay, we'll get the correspondents to host." And then I was like, "No, we're going to cancel the shows."

And they said, we understand that you're grieving, but yeah, we're going to like, in a weird way, like the show must go on. And I remember thinking my grandmother came on and did an episode for The Daily Show. Like we needed an episode. We were in South Africa. My grandmother welcomed us into her house and she's not even that kind of person. But it was amazing to see. I was like, these people, I was like, she's part of this thing. I'm not just the one mourning. The Daily Show has to mourn this thing in some way because it was a part of it, you know?

And so that all happened and I'm at home and I was crying like I've never cried in my life. And then everyone came over. And I'll never forget this. David Kibuka came over. Joseph Opio came over. David Meyer came over. Friends from, one from America, one from Uganda, one from South Africa. And they all came over to the house. Eugene, we sat there and I cried. And then we laughed harder than I can ever remember laughing in my entire life.

We laughed talking about families and funerals and death and, you know, grandmothers. And we, yo man, we laughed and cried and laughed. And like, you don't even understand. And I remember the feeling that I was having in that moment was a feeling of deep gratitude that I had got to experience this human being who was my gran. And in a similar way, that definitely didn't have the same level of

of profoundness. I felt that on the last day of The Daily Show. There are few things more blessed in this life than being able to grieve when something is still around. Because grief is unprocessed joy. It's all rushing into you at the same time.

Mixed emotions. It's beyond mixed. It's all of it at the same time. It's every smile, every hug, every kiss, every laugh, every meal, every, it's all coming in at the same time. And that's why your body feels that. I feel is like, it's, it's, it's all of it at the same time. Every hug. Prompted by one motion. Yo man, one, one, one thing happened and now it all comes to you at the same time. But do you know how wonderful it is to experience that when the thing is still alive? Do you know what I mean? That's what I got to do with The Daily Show.

The show didn't get canceled. I didn't get fired. What a beautiful way to move on. You're still healthy? Yeah, we got to grieve it, but still be there. It's that phrase, which has always stuck with me and I love it. I go like, man, I wish we could all attend each other's funerals while we're still alive. Because then what would we say? While I'm here. How would we connect?

You know how many people you're going to see at your friend's funeral that you didn't connect with because you were just like, eh. But now at the funeral, you'd be like, hey man, we should get that drink. Hey man, we should, why don't we hang out anymore? Because of the things that you would say. That's exactly. I wish we. But why don't we have a funeral while the person is still alive?

Now we're going to go there and tell the person how we feel about them. Now we're going to tell a funny story about how wonderful they are as a person and the stupidest thing they ever did. Now we're going to connect with each other. But why do we only wait for death to remember life? And so it's not impossible. It's not impossible.

I just think it's hard because as you say, we get lazy. We're taught we don't have to do it. We've been sold this idea that it's not, you never, it'll come, it'll, no, but like genuinely, I go try it. You know, we had this type of conversation, but not obviously in this depth. While we were standing there, you came back and we were standing at your place and then I looked at the shoes by the door and I was like, wow, there's so many shoes here.

And then you looked at me and you said, Eugene, people are not supposed to walk in with shoes in this house. This is my place in New York. Then I was like, oh, as I looked at my feet and I saw my shoes on my feet. And it's just that, you know, this obviously personally, I'm a very private person on social media. Yeah. I don't put out my life. But if there's one thing...

If there's one thing that I wish people knew about you, a few things, how nice you are as a human being. Oh, shucks. Thanks. How generous you are as a person. And I'm talking about your time and how loving you are to everyone. Because I think us all as your friends, you know our stories personally. As your friends, we don't feel like we are part of a group. Everyone feels like they know you and you know them.

And when I experienced you at work, remember, I know you from Horror Cafe. I know you from your polo. I know you from great tracksuit pants running to the airport and going to start a new life and a new career. And then I get to see the same guy at the helm of what became an institution, American pop culture.

And I see the same guy who asks the PA, have you eaten? Is there something that I can do? Did you order that thing? Is that thing? Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Good night. And I see you doing that. And I'm going, I wish people could see this and know this about you, how nice and caring of a person you are. I've never caught you on a bad day. They've never caught you on a bad day.

You are a genuinely nice person. And I always, whenever I think of what we are going to do when you say, let's hang out, I always go, I know what I'm going to get here. If there's one thing that's going to happen here is I'm going to experience generosity, kindness, not a bad word about anyone, and just pure... Some bad words. Pure childlike joy. And, you know, people around you will never...

have less of that ever, as long as you're still here and the day you're gone, because we're all going to go some point. But this is what you must know about yourself.

is you have it in you it's not a thing that you earn through money through fame through success you were born into it you're that's why your grandmother asked you to lead a prayer she saw something in you that a lot of the world was soon to see and she just wanted you to take center stage and claim it that there's an inner power in you that makes people gravitate towards you that make people go i believe in what you're saying and a lot of what you're experiencing

It's because of that you were groomed to be the person of a shining beacon. You bring your friends together. You brought an office together. And now here you are bringing all of us together. And these people will get to hear what I have to say because of you. So you must be proud of yourself. When you go to bed, when you're closing your checking account like I usually do, take that one thing off. Be proud of yourself for being a nice and kind person who has no bad word to say about anyone. Damn, Eugene. Yeah. I mean it.

You know, it's funny. You just made me realize why I want to do this series of my favorite people. Yeah. Is literally because of what we said. Yeah. It's like one.

People often ask me why I am the way I am. Then I go like, I'm not the way I am. I'm just a manifestation of the way we are. And the we is all the people in my life. Correct. You know? So I go, you can't watch my comedy and not know Eugene Koza. You know what I'm saying? You can't see how I think about life and not see Eugene Koza. You can't like this. And everyone in my life has that in a different way. Absolutely. Do you know what I'm saying? But you like...

Yeah, man, you blessed me again because you've like clearly given me an idea of like why. Because I knew why I wanted to do this, but I didn't know like, or rather I knew what I wanted to do. I myself didn't know like the why. And I think this is the why. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. This is dope. Now let's go say some bad words about people.

I know we've shouted out Buddhism here, but we haven't shouted out Dabism. He was the first one who taught us to say goodbye. Dab taught us to say goodbye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. This was dope. Thanks, Gigi.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?