Marc Maron
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We know when it comes to finding balance, the more choices, the better. I hope you're prepared because I'm a notoriously difficult interview. I don't know if you know that. Oh, no, I don't. But that's very exciting for me. You got to stay on it. Thank you.

Welcome back to Where Everybody Knows Your Name. Today, I'm joined by an actor, comedian, and one of the godfathers of podcasting, Mark Maron. He's been the host of WTF with Mark Maron since 2009. And in that time, he's talked with pretty much everyone. I mean, everyone. He's been a great host of WTF with Mark Maron since 2009.

His 1,600-plus episodes have included guests like Barack Obama, Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain, Ted Danson. I know. I know what I did. I slipped it in there. I'm aware of that. Anyway, one of Mark's special powers is how he can weave humor with aging and death.

That's actually the subject of his most recent comedy special, From Bleak to Dark. Thrilled to have him on this show. Here he is, Mark Maron. So, I literally had this thought of you should run for office. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure it would suck for you personally, but you... My brain went like this. Yeah. Sobriety. Yeah. Which means you're familiar with wanting to tell the truth and...

Right. Not have secrets and all of that stuff. You have balls of steel because you're a stand up. Yeah. And that means you're going to step up and you don't really care. You do a little about what people think. Yeah. You're willing to take shots and still hold true to your whatever it is, your belief system or whatever. Yeah. And that's so rare nowadays that I went, yeah. Yeah.

The idea of running for politics in the culture that we live in now, you know, despite sobriety, fine. Secrets, you know, in sobriety, you've worked through a lot of stuff. And some of that, you know, you tell your sponsor or you tell the people that you're supposed to. And those things, anyone who is sober has got some stories. And some of those stories, yeah, I don't need them brought up.

Yeah. Yeah. And I hate to say like, you know, I'm sorry, Ted, but I just, I don't want to be part of it because I'm too nervous.

Yeah, but that's my truth or even worse. Yeah, but I'll speak out on stage and on my podcast and I tend to feel a certain amount of pride in being a voice for people who might not have one, but it's usually around depression and sort of moving through life with the obstacles of being emotionally hobbled.

or psychologically frail. What do you mean? Well, I mean, you know, you come from a certain world, you have certain parents and there are certain ways that you're wired that you're not going to be able to unfuck. And so you kind of live with them and you're sort of like, well, you know, I got some little problems with intimacy and trust and, you know, generally somewhat self-centered.

So how do I constantly be vigilant around behaving appropriately within the context of whatever I was brought up with? Right. So, yeah. See, even this podcast, I sit there going, oh, shoot, my granddaughter. So I don't know if I, oh, my parents, they're not even alive, but oh, my parents.

Yeah. You know, I can't say that or I shouldn't do that. I have so many fucking shoulds and shouldn'ts. I'll throw my parents right under the bus at any opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And I don't have kids or grandkids, so I don't have to worry about that. Yeah. But the type of emails I get in terms of what I do generally, you know, outside of, you know,

trying to talk about the Israeli conflict are generally emails like, sir, hey, you helped me through a dark time. Really appreciate it. I got sober because of you. Those are big. Yeah, sure. Recently, I've been talking about colonoscopy on stage and I literally do a PSA to preface the bit. I'm like, if you're a guy and you've been told you need one, don't be a baby about your asshole. Just go. Right.

And don't lie because it's kind of enjoyable. Well, I mean, well, the prostate exam is enjoyable. It'd be colonoscopy. You're basically anally raped by a machine by professionals while you're sleeping. But it's to see if you have cancer. So do it. Just man up and do it. It's the day before that sucks. Oh, yeah. The bit I do is like, you know, you get a prescription and you go to the pharmacist and he puts two bottles on the counter and he says, don't go outside. Yeah.

And, uh, but oddly, I, you know, I got a note that was given to another comic that was left backstage for me from a guy who said that because I brought it up in the way I brought it up, he finally went. Yeah. Uh, and they, they found two polyps. I didn't follow up, but he went. Yeah. It's not my job to follow up. It's just my job to inspire Ted. I inspired.

So if you had to name a philosophy that you have or a point of view that you're trying to get across, or maybe you're not at all in your podcast and your stand-up, what would it be? Do you have guardrails that say, I want to...

This interests me, so I'll talk about this, but my purpose in talking about this besides being funny and entertaining, do you have one of those kind of... Well, you know, I said something weird on stage. It might have been last night for the first time in talking about... I performed at Largo and I've been working out this new hour, you know, new hour of stand-up because I did this special from bleak to dark and it took a long time to put that together.

And the thing I said on stage last night, I said, I don't know that if I, I don't know that I got into comedy for money. I really think I got into comedy just to be seen, you know? And I think that's true. And I think I don't, I never had put it that way. Being seen, being witnessed. Yes. And I'm, you know, I'm doing like, you know, some pretty gnarly shit right now about stuff, you know? And I think the last special was really a portal into something, you know, to be able to address grief,

the way I did, you know, kind of opened up possibilities in terms of, you know, what, what you can and can't make funny in, in a, in a, in a deep way, not just in a, a sort of like, cause comedy kind of is also can be dismissive and act as sort of a, you know, kind of a buffer of feelings. Right. Right. But to sort of go into the, the, the darkness or into, you know, whatever your personal, uh,

you know, sadness or whatever it is and really kind of elevate it. Did you workshop after Lynn died? Yeah. Did you workshop that special? Oh, yeah, for a year, a year and a half. So in the beginning, I'm assuming the emotion was raw. Yeah, no, I was doing small shows at Dynasty Typewriter here and I, because I write on stage, like, you know, Richard and I are somewhere like that. You know, you make notes and then you riff.

So what happened is I moved through this stuff, and that's how I write the act is I have an idea, I start talking about it, and if it sort of sticks, it sticks in my head, and then I kind of build it and hone it. But at the beginning of talking about grief,

I was doing a small theater and the people that came knew it was a workshop. So, you know, I was emotional. I mean, I would cry sometimes and it would take, it took a while to talk about, but I said to them, I said, you know, I think there's got to be a way for me to talk about this up here. So let's do it. But you're in essence rehearsing something that was started out being very emotional. And then with rehearsing, you become intellectual. So by the time you did the special, um,

Was the emotion that you started with as raw or had it become something that you were now not acting, but acting? Kind of. I don't know if it's quite acting. I think that if I am...

true to myself in what I think comedy can do that, you know, I had to eventually frame it that way. If you love comedy and you are a funny person, you're doing it to protect yourself from something or to process something. So I don't know, things become an act, but, you know, not unlike acting, as you know, that, you know, even when you're acting, you know, you've put those emotions in place.

you know, for that character. And, and right. My wife's divorcing me. This, this is horrible, but man, it's going to be great for my acting. Yeah.

No, not quite like that. But let's say you're playing... A lot of actors do feel that way. I'm not saying you did. Sure, but it gives you a new source of emotions to draw from. But when you're putting a character together and this guy's got to be, you know, sad, you're going to tap into your sadness as a foundation. So, you know, you just remove the character from that and the character is me. The sadness is real. And so it doesn't... It's not entirely an intellectual exercise. You just learn how to manage the emotions.

Right. But as an actor, I will find an as if, not a literal. Right. Oh, really? Yeah. Because if it's a literal...

I may not be able to tap into... There's a lot of protection around it if I imagine one of my kids dying or something like that. Oh, right. But if I take something right next door to that... Sure. Then I can allow it to tap in. Yeah, so I think I'm just... I guess here's what I'm really saying is I cannot imagine losing my wife, Mary. Yeah. I cannot imagine losing her suddenly out of the blue. Yeah. I just can't imagine how you...

how you had to process that. Well, it was, you know, I think grief is complicated because everyone's going to experience it. And I think that the idea of being public about it, but also being respectful of her, you know, of her and her family. For the most part, I don't really know how they responded to it. But one of the more difficult things is,

you know, outside of losing her was that, you know, we were fairly new relationship. You know, I'd known her for several years and, and, you know, we had been, but we weren't together that long and it was during COVID and, you know, I didn't really know her family yet. And, and, and all of a sudden, you know, she's, you know, has gotten sick very quickly and ended up in the hospital. And, and I, I didn't even have numbers to call. I had to have an ICU nurse get into her phone to get me the numbers of, of people who I didn't even know which one was the dad, which one, you know,

But, you know, there's no way to say anyone's grief is deeper than the others. But what I realized, you know, after she passed was there were people that had a whole history, you know, with this woman. And that history I didn't know. And so I'm left with this idea that I had found the perfect partner. And it was a sort of...

death of possibility, you know, that, of the life we could have had. And also just being, you know, the guy who was there when this happened, it was, it was, it was very complicated, but, but it's, it's still the loss of somebody you love is, it's just shattering. And, you know, when it happens that quickly and totally unexpected, you don't, there's nothing you can do to control it. But I knew a few things

you know, fairly quickly that, you know, it wasn't about me. You know, I'm not the victim here. This is not, you know, there has to be a way to sort of be with this. And I chose to do it publicly because I don't think that people, I think we're terrified of death, obviously, of our own death and of the people we love, but it's inevitable. And it's not really part of the

cultural conversation. I think we do everything we can and the very nature of capitalism is designed to keep us away from thinking about that stuff. It's what fuels it. How can I not think about that? How about these chips? I don't want to, at end of life, all of a sudden have to stop living. I want to be able to make jokes

Be, you know, be present. Be at the same. I get to be alive until I'm not breathing. Yeah. And I don't want people to look at me like I fucked up somehow. Yeah. I don't want to, you know, usually you sit there and you look, he died. Oh, what did he do? Oh, got it. He did that wrong. I won't do that. Right. Right. You know, or boy, he fucked up. No. You find that true in your world, in your age group? Yeah.

Which part? Just that. What they do to fuck up? Yeah, because I find that I'm starting to see people die, obviously, and you have as well. You've lost a lot of friends, and some of them we know. But for me, when I see that happening, I have friends who are a bit older than me and who are sick.

And, and it's, it's just heartbreaking because you realize like, you know, you very quickly go like, well, well, what did they do? But the thing is, is that you, you, you get to a certain age and you're in the window.

Yeah. As my friend Jerry Stahl says, it's like, you know, something's in the mail for everybody. So you don't know what that is. Yeah. But you do know that it becomes more, it happens more as you get to a certain age window. Yeah.

So I generally find that I feel terrible about what they're going through. And then it's sort of like, well, what do I do? Like my dad's in the dimension now, but he's still engaged now.

And I don't call him as much as I should. I mean, theoretically, like, why don't I just call him every day and say, what's up? Because I don't, there's something heartbreaking and hard about it. But sometimes you just got to, you know, step up and ride it out, I guess. Yeah. Are you close with your dad? Yeah. I'm close enough. He lives in New Mexico. My mom's in Albuquerque. In Albuquerque, yeah. You know, we've had our hard times and I, you know, my parents were not great.

But they weren't terrible. They were a little selfish. Did you know they weren't great when you were a kid? Kind of. Just in hindsight. No, kind of. I mean, yeah. My dad had his own kind of mental health issues. He was a surgeon. At different points, he was diagnosed as bipolar or depressed or narcissistic. My mother had sort of a chronic kind of... I think her eating disorder was her job.

Wow. But, you know, she's all right. And he's where he's at. Usually how I frame my parents is that I don't look at them as parents. I wouldn't go to them as parents. They're just these people with problems I grew up with. Right. It's just true. It is. There are a couple of nice kids who are doing the best they can. Right. And had you. That's right. Very young. Yeah. Oh, really? Sure. My mom was 22.

That's young. Yeah. But I mean, it's what they did. And because of that, they're both still around and I'm 60. Yeah. You know, I'm like, and that weird age gap, you know, it switches because for years you're like, oh, my parents are old. Now you're like, oh my God, they're 20 years older than me. How'd that happen? 20 years. I know. I look back, Mary and I have been together 30 years and I go, it just was like yesterday. Then I go, well, 30 years from now. Oh, wow.

Oh, shit. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 15 years from now. I know. Yeah, you can't linger there too long. No. And I think, I don't know if it's true of everybody, but baby boomers just think they're entitled to live forever. Well, yeah, you guys, you're a boomer. I'm the tail end. I don't count myself as a boomer, but you're full in. Yeah, full in. Yeah.

Is it time to pass the baton? No. Yeah, the great age of entitlement. Yeah. Yeah, my parents... But yeah, in terms of him aging and stuff, I'll tell you, Losing Lynn sort of was... I wouldn't call it a wake-up call, but it does sort of...

bring you into reality, you know, in a very brutal way. I mean, you know, you kind of expect your parents to pass it. You don't know how you're going to handle it. But all of a sudden, man, you know, people are dying and you get to an age where you're like, well, shit, no matter how much I don't want to do this or how I feel or whatever, they're going down. You know, there are people like for some reason, you know, Saget's death had a huge effect on me.

And because it was like, that was another one. It's like, what the fuck happened? Yeah. You know, and he was such a, you know, fun kind of loving guy, but I'll tell you, man, uh, you know, I've kind of, you know, I tried to, uh, to show up for, for funerals for other people. I didn't used to, I wasn't, you know, I was afraid of it and I didn't want to deal with it. But you know, when he died and we, no one knew like what happened, you don't even, you still don't even know what happened. Right. But like I went to that funeral and I got, I live in Glendale, so I got to drive past,

Mount Sinai, the cemetery every day. And like, I couldn't get it out of my mind for like a year that like that guy was just at home a week ago. And now he's just in the ground up there. And I drive by it every day. I'm like, oh my God, it's sobering, but not awful, but I'm going to be cremated. I have a hard time with the, just laying there. I decided that when I had my first MRI, it was like, oh no. Yeah.

I know it's silly because I'll be dead, but you're not burying me in a box. I'll go out. Thank you. And it's like it's not even organic. You know, like up in Mount Sinai, like they put the casket in the hole in the ground. It's like fortified with cement. I mean, it's like just this crypt. I mean, like the idea, especially with Jews, there was the wooden box for a reason. So eventually it breaks down and we can reenter the ecosystem, not just be in this casket.

cement box, this tomb. Like you go to like where my grandparents are buried. This has gotten really upbeat. No, this is what we, this is mine. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, you start to realize, like, it's sort of disturbing, like, because they're buried in some weird old Jewish cemetery in, like, Elizabeth, New Jersey, in this industrial area, like, that got built up after. But there's this little plot of land. There's just, you know, dead Jews in it. And, like, you know, after a Jewish cemetery, especially the older ones, you start to, you know, if you go visit the grave, you can see the ground is sagged. And it's like, well, I guess it's given way. They've begun the journey back into the soil, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

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My father died watching this old house, having had a steak and probably fibbed about the second drink he had. Yeah. He sat down to watch it and just slowly went. And my mother said, Ned, are you enjoying it from the, you know, she was changing it for a night count or something. Are you enjoying your show? And nothing. So she went out.

And could see what was happening and held his hand so that... And there was a chair because she's almost...

I don't know, 85 at this point. So she couldn't have gotten down on the floor with him, but she got to hold his hand and his pulse. He called my daughter, my sister to let, you know, say come quickly, but then was able to sit with him. My father, who never was great about being 100% truthful in life and had secrets here and there and took kind of the easy way, the unexamined path.

Got a little Alzheimer's going, but it works to my advantage. I got a second drink. Sure, didn't remember the first one. My mother, on the other hand, got pneumonia. She's about 89.

And the doctor said, you have to go to the hospital. You're going to die, Jessica. Yeah. She said, thank God she couldn't speak because she had such bad coughing. She had swallowed something wrong. And so she had lost her voice. Yeah. Almost completely. Yeah. And my sister and I, you know, oh, wow.

We're taking her home no longer to try to keep her alive. Yeah. We're taking her home to be with her while she died. Yeah. Which took two weeks. Yeah. But when she got home, uh,

She's very spiritual, very religious, Catholic, and was very excited about meeting her maker, you know, about going... See how that works? And when it works, it really works. Yeah. It's like, finally, I get to meet the guy. Yeah. Going to relax for eternity. Yeah. And... So did you get a priest at the house? No, because...

The hospice lady came and said, well, this is not how this works. Because mom thought, oh, I've chosen to die. Let's go. Let's do it. We're off. And the hospice said, no, it's going to take a while for your body to shut down. And this will happen. This will happen. But my mom couldn't speak or ask questions. And the hospice person said, and then we'll have an opiate morphine. Went again. My mom went, no. No.

And it was like, oh my God. And my sister and I played this desperate game of charades with my mother. She wanted to be high? No, she wanted to burn. And we kept going, burn, burn. What do you mean burn? But she couldn't speak. She couldn't write. Yeah. And what she meant was that in some religions or philosophical thought, if you choose to suffer consciously at the end of your life. Right.

choose to suffer, feel it all, that you can burn off some whatever, karma, sins, however you want to hold it. So she wanted the full month. She was purging. Yeah. That's interesting. Wow. They just let her burn, huh?

She had people from, I think, some Catholic order of monks came down from Colorado and sang evening prayers. She had the passing of her dreams. She really did. See, now, how is that not amazing? It was amazing. And I remember watching it. Last thing. Sorry, your show. I remember watching her.

And she had no longer was really present. She had about two more days of her body shutting down, but she really wasn't there anymore. And I remember, and I had the night shift. My sister watched her during the day. I watched her at night. And I sat there and every spiritual idea, thought, book, what, you know, Zen, whatever I had nibbled at or studied went flying out the window. Oh, wow. And I realized, oh,

I don't know. Yeah. I really, truly don't. Let's tell the truth, Ted. Yeah. You don't know. She might. She will soon. She will soon, but you have no fucking idea. And it was very humbling. And from that moment on, I went to, I'm going to try to do the best I can every day. And that's my goal.

Sure. In terms of life. And also just the, I think the hardest thing is just that acceptance. It's like, sure, you don't know, but you might not ever. And, and, and it's inevitable. Yes. Uh, you know, you just, uh, you know, you get in terms of spirituality. I don't really think in those terms, but you know, I, I'd prefer not to go out slowly as my mind goes away. Yes. It'd be nice if I went out pretty quick. At choice. Yes. You know, I, and I, and I think about it pretty often, uh,

Just that the idea of nothingness. I'm doing this big bit right now about I passed out at the top of a mountain when I was hiking. You did? I did, yeah. I blacked out. And I've kind of tied in death and everything. But the essence of the experience was that when you black out, I don't know if you've ever passed out. But when you pass out, it's like nothing's happening. Right. Right.

like there's nothing and if you don't wake up you wouldn't be the wiser and nothing it's just nothing because when you wake up you're like oh my god there was nothing going on yeah and i'm like if that's what happens i'm okay with it do you know what i mean it's fine because i'm not i'm not really gonna know but it is sort of uh you know kind of disturbing to just you know contemplate your absence

You know, but also like you've had parents pass and, you know, when, when, when, when, what happens really is in the living is just sort of like, well, what should we do with these shoes? Yeah. I mean, that's what happens. That's the legacy. Like, does anyone want this? Call your sister. Does she want this? All right. So, and, and that's the horrible thing. And you're like, well, what would the deceased want? Like nothing. What do they, what do you mean? What do they want? Jokes on you, not her. Yeah. Yeah.

So do you do a spiritual? Yeah. Nope.

Yeah, afterlife or not afterlife, but how about energy? Have you ever talked to a medium? No. Have you ever talked to anyone who knows a medium? No. Because you've decided something? I don't. It's bullshit? No, I mean, I've just realized that I'm not on that search for some reason. My brother is a little more, he's gone through a lot of like, what does it mean? Yeah, yeah. What's happening? How do I feel better? Yeah.

And I don't have it in me for some reason. I know when people are like, do you believe in God? I'm like, I don't know if I give a shit, really. I mean, I don't know. To me, it's like the struggle to accept what is.

You know what I mean? I don't... It seems that the basic payoff is that, yeah, it's kind of sad, ultimately. You've done everything you could, and then it's over. But I don't find any solace in the idea of an afterlife. I do...

I feel like there's a universal order to things. It's kind of baffling and that I think we're well on the way of fucking up as humans. But I don't lean on it too much other than I do think I am oddly not optimistic, but I enjoy what's good in people and I enjoy the struggle. Yeah, but I do not...

think about God. I've meditated a bit, you know, and I've done, you know, I, you know, I was brought up Jewish, which is completely a mystery. I, I was doing a bit about that. Uh, what was it? I say, um, you know, people don't, when people don't really understand Jews, uh, they're, they're sort of like, well, you're Jewish. Are you religious? I'm like, no, you know, they go, what is it like? Uh, do you believe in, oh, no. Yeah. You're a Jew. Are you religious? I'm like, no, I'm a Jew. You know,

We don't have to be religious. We're the chosen people. You know what I mean? You guys are just going to have to live with that. There's nothing you can do to take that away from us. But then at other times I've said, well, do Jews believe in heaven? It's not clear to me. I was never told. I'm not sure. What about hell? Again, no idea. I don't know. To me, that's closer with my belief system or whatever it is.

The truth. You know, I have talked to mediums. I've been in rooms where you would be hard-pressed to explain what just happened if you tried to be logical about it. Have you seen David Blaine? Yes. Well, I mean, was it magic? Was it a sleight of hand, what you're saying, that can't be explained? No.

No, it was, it was, I mean, I'm not going to do the thing, but it was truly, it'd be easy. It's easier for me to just to believe that's true. And I'm not on a God. What's true? That there's something else. I don't know about something else, but I do believe that energy, just physics does not just magically go away because whatever it is, that's you and your thoughts. That's, that's,

that's physics. That's chemistry. That's thoughts have energy. I don't know the difference. So energy just disappears when your body stops breathing. I don't know. I mean, but fine, that's all fine and good. But whatever you think is going to happen to that energy, you're not going to be like, Oh, I'm finally energy. Here's my point though. It doesn't fucking matter. Yeah. Because the truth is you got to wake up and live today and try to be nice to people.

You know, try to be nurturing, try to be kind, try to be real, try to be truthful. And that job remains the same no matter what your belief system is. Sure. No matter what happens or doesn't happen, it's still. Yeah. At different times, I'm prone to mysticism. But yeah, the idea of being good and, you know, don't create emotional problems.

Yeah. Yeah. But that's not even a spiritual thought. It's just like, it feels better. No, it's, it's, it's a, a trying to live a principled moral life, but except that you are not perfect and make mistakes and that, uh, you know, you try to do better or you just turn it over to Jesus. It really depends on who you want to give responsibility for your fucked upness.

I'm embarrassed that I haven't known you for a long time. I did your podcast and I thought, this is weird. I didn't know that this existed. The weird ancient days of early podcasting when we were all just working out of our homes and our garages. Right. Now look what happened. I did this. I made this. I know you did. It's my fault. And I'm trying to learn from you. No, you're doing good. You're a professional. I'm trying to learn from you.

But anyway, I'm embarrassed to say that I'm catching up with who you are. And let me jump in here. Before you do it, I just wanted to put a tag on the last conversation about spirituality. I am prone to ridiculous mysticism or things that transcend coincidence occasionally. And I have to reel myself back in. And I just happened to have one of those today where...

And it's just like one of these things, and what do you do with this information in terms of energy or in terms of things that are beyond our understanding? For some reason, I've had a traveling Wilbury song stuck in my head for like two days. I don't even really like them.

But, you know, it was okay. I liked them all separately, but I'm not particularly fond of Jeff Lynne's production, but that's beside the point. But that song that, I'm so tired of being lonely. Yeah, yeah. Right. It was just stuck in my head for a while. And, you know, I woke up with it in my head and then I went to the gym and it was playing. Do with it what you want.

Oh, I'm not saying God's talking to me. I tend to look at those moments as like he was. No, no. I just look at that as like, well, I'm on the right. I'm in the right groove. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's just an indicator like, well, you're a little ahead of it. Okay. I was going to transist and give you a compliment. Let's stay where we are. We'll get back. No, no, you can do it later. What about law of attraction? Right. What about.

creating your reality because the energy you're putting out there attracts and you do start to create your own reality. Do you... I'm not... You've heard of law of attraction, so I won't have to explain. I don't know if I've heard of it, but I understand it. And I think that on some level,

You know, that's got to be sort of true. You know, what is our own perception? You know, how do we process reality? You know, what do we manifest? Yeah, I don't put a lot of thought into that. I'm kind of a... I'm impulsive in my life and somewhat...

you know, neurotic in my brain. I don't, I think that probably has to be true. Has to be. Yeah. The opposite of that is being the victim where everything gets done to you and it's very mysterious. No, you're not. No, but I believe that. I think that is true. And I think there is a language outside of

something we understand in terms of how we engage as humans. And I, and I think it's, you know, I see it with all animals. I have been in some sort of algorithmic loop of, you know, uh, interspecies animal vids on Instagram, you know, just to, you know, see puppies and ducks and stuff. You're like, well, they get it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

There's just part of me like, you know, these people are like, why are the killer whales attacking boats? Because they're upset with us. I mean, and the way animals communicate. So there's got to be this, we have this big brain and there's a lot happening that we just don't acknowledge or we've shut down. And, you know, I believe that's true. I believe there is a frequency of communication and understanding that. I don't think it's spiritual. I just think, you know, we've limited ourselves by the context of civilization and whatever the fuck that is.

we're living in now is. And, you know, a lot of that's gone away, but I think it's there. Yeah. I think science and spirituality in the purest of sense for both,

are, you know, right next to each other. Yeah, I mean, I guess they'd have to be. Again, I don't do as much homework as I should. You know, I'm busy trying to figure out what I'm going to eat and what I'm going to say to Ted Danson. Okay. Or Joan Baez came to my house yesterday, and for three days, I'm like, I'm going to say to...

Did you own bias? Listen, I've been in a depression thinking about talking to you because I do not stack up. So I become self-deprecating. No. Yeah, no, no. That's me. But let's move on to the compliment. Yeah. You're a really good actor. And I shouldn't say that like I'm surprised. But I haven't seen that much of your work. I haven't done that much.

You're really good. Well, thank you. Genuinely. I'm trying. I saw Lin's film. Oh, yeah. Sword of Trust. Yeah. A lot of stand-ups do not

pass the ball well when they're acting. Yeah. You know, I got the ball and watch this. Yeah. You didn't have an ounce of that. You're really good. Well, it's a comedy and it was kind of an oddball improvisational, you know, comedy. But, you know, there was beats in there. Like, I've had to, look, man, it's weird with acting.

for me, because, you know, it's something I always wanted to do. And, you know, I had a, I did four seasons of my own show on IFC. And I knew that, you know, because I'm a comic and I'd seen other comics go through this, that, you know, the first season I was going to take a hit. I was not going to know what to do with my hands or how to be on a set. And it was going to look stiff and it did. But over time it became a little more comfortable. And,

Was that all self-generated? You said, I'm going to do this, and they said, great. We pitched a show based on the podcast. As a comic, part of the old-timey way of thinking was you were working towards a show based around you. I did it on IFC, and I thought we did a good job. It was a scripted show, and not many people saw it. It's hard to find. It's funny because people ask me, where can I see it? I'm like, I don't know.

I think you can get it on iTunes. You can buy it maybe. And, you know, I'd done a little bit here and there when I was younger. I have a very small part in Almost Famous, you know, which is at the beginning of the podcast where I play the angry promoter. But like, look, with acting, it's taken me a while to understand how you extract, you know, satisfaction out of the process of making film or television.

Because it's so, like, it's repetitious. There's a lot of waiting. You know, you could wait all day to do three lines. So, like, you know, how do you make that satisfying and not think this job is ridiculous? Like, I'm not great in a trailer.

I can't sit there. No matter how many shoots I've been on... You're too smart to be a full-time actor. But after hour three of the lighting problem, I'm like, what could be the problem? Right. No matter how many sets I've been on, it's like, what are they doing? Just turn the thing on! So...

And people are like, well, you should read them. Like, I'm not reading in the trailer. I'm sitting there on a fake leather couch that they've gone out of their way to make uncomfortable, it seems, the trailers. You know, I guess when you get to a certain level, maybe you get a nicer couch, but you can't even sleep in the fucking thing. Anyway, I'm not going to complain. We live a gifted life, but...

But in terms of, you know, I studied acting a bit in college. And then, you know, when I was in San Francisco, there was a guy in New York I took from that was kind of like a secondary method-y guy. And I think his name was Mark Howard, who had a studio where he was like the little, you know, the little Meisner of the thing. He would sit there and you'd go up there and cry with a person that you did a scene with. And he'd be like, okay, let's talk. So I always wanted to do it. But I think most of my...

understanding of it in recent years has come from talking to you guys. Like, once I started acting, I would just drill actors and figure out, you know, because you always want to ask them, so what is the craft? What is your process? And none of you have an answer because you're embarrassed. Ha! Ha!

No actor's willing to go like, to be honest with you, about 70% of it's just natural. You know, I don't know why it's a gift. I look good on camera and I listen. You know, so like if you're not doing the kind of work where you're like immersive. Yeah. Like there's only one or two Meryl Streep's. There's one Meryl Streep and a few other ones that can do that kind of work. You know, if you're not that, you're getting away with something and you know it. Yeah, yeah. So...

but you're pretty good. No, but my joke is I, I, Sam Malone, that's all I've got. Then Sam Malone became a doctor on Becker. Sam Malone, you know, became a demon in the good voice. You were great in Body Heath. You know, you were great in that. And that's the first time I saw you and that's the first time I noticed you and that was before Sam Malone.

Good point. And, you know, you really did it, you know, because, you know, you got like, you know, kind of like knotted up William Hurt. Yeah. And you're just dancing around doing this thing. And it was, there was a lot of choices there and I've watched it recently and it still holds up and it was real work. It wasn't Sam Malone. This podcast is looking up. No, I mean, it's a memorable character and it's always stuck with me. The sort of strange dancing DA. Yeah.

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So, I'm trying to figure out this podcast thing. Here's what all I know so far. It's a privilege.

a privilege to sit down for an hour and talk to you. We would never talk like this at a party or a bumming. You just can't. And it is a privilege. I've always wanted to know what it's like to be you, to be the other person. Well, I mean, there's something amazing about that because even like, you know, with my podcast, like it is a big part of my social life is that like I have these very focused people

you know, engaged conversations with amazing artists and people. And it's very deep to me in the moment. And my experience with it is always sort of like I just try, you know, I want to show up and be respectful, but I engage, you know, like the fact that, you know, yesterday I spent an hour and 15 minutes with Joan Baez. That's so fucking unbelievable. Yeah. And I spent three days kind of like trying to put her together in my mind.

uh, in terms of how, you know, with the arc of her life and everything, there's a new doc about her. And, you know, I, I'm always terrified and nervous and full of dread before any of them. And I've done like, you know, 1500 of these things and these conversations because like I've, you know, I kind of do a method trip with it. You know, I, I had to, I watched the doc, uh,

I didn't necessarily resonate with her music as a younger person because you guys grew up with it. But to me, it felt a little distant and a little almost perfect, the way she sang. But also what she represented is all different. And I had to sort of load up.

So I watched this documentary, which is very revealing. And she's like 82 or something now. And then after seeing the documentary, I revisit the records. I have the first couple records. And I listened to, you know, I kind of put together the arc of her life that I learned in the doc with the records and how she was feeling at the time of these records. And I kind of immersed myself in

In her, in Joan Baez. And what happens with me in the podcasting is like, it's usually the day of me talking to somebody after I've loaded up, not with questions, but with a sense of the person. That's great. Because when I try to think of questions, I just...

I'm not looking forward to it. I'm no longer. But when I did watch your stuff and go, oh, wait, I want to know. Yeah, just talk to you. I want to know about that. Yeah. And so what usually happens to me is I'm looking for a way to start. Because what is the thing that, what am I going to, what's on my mind that's going to start this conversation? Yeah. Because I know all the stuff.

But, you know, I don't want to... That you're genuinely curious about. Yeah, or just that I think is... It's almost like, in my mind, it becomes an emotional through line, right? Right.

And that usually happens when I take a shower the day of the talk where I'm just sort of like, where's the starting point of this? Do you know what I mean? I know I'm in trouble when I fantasize asking you a question, then chuckle Riley, this is all in the shower, about whatever it was I said.

And I'll find myself, if Mary walks in and goes, what are you laughing at? Yeah. Oh, nothing. An imaginary moment. Well, yeah, but I mean, that's your, that's an actor's process. Oh, but I was going to say about acting, I'm sorry, is that, uh,

You know, I learned from all you guys that, you know, I'm not belittling it. I think that a lot of acting is a fairly, you know, either you're intuitive and you're natural or you're not. And you like make-believe. You got to like make-believe. I think so. But you also have to, yeah, see, I don't have that part of it.

but, but I do think a lot of, uh, actors are, are naturals in a lot of ways. And they, you know, they train and you put in a pro you get your own process, but it's never one process. No, you know, it's just whatever your work is, your work is, you take a little of this, you get a little of that, whatever, you know, experience it all adds up. But, you know, but most people, it was so funny because, uh, you know,

Like I remember, because I remember taking these classes, you know, and sometimes early on when I was talking to actors and I wanted to understand acting more, you know, I was maybe a little snotty. But I remember just like things I did in college or some of these acting classes. I remember I was talking to Paul Dano, you know.

And, you know, we were kind of getting into it. And, you know, he was loose and open. And I just almost in a, I don't know if I was joking or not. I said, do you ever do animal work? Which we did. Yeah. He said, I do. Yeah. Completely. Yeah, I do do animal work. And I'm like, and I don't remember what movie it was. So in this film, was there any animal work in your process? He's like, there was. Yeah.

Well, he's good. So maybe I should start bringing that back into my life. I think it was a penguin. Yeah. Yeah. But I did need to find out why, you know, what made acting great, you know, and what makes it satisfying. And I think with this, that last film I did to Leslie, which got a lot of attention because there was a sort of grassroots kind of momentum to get Andrea Riceboro back.

which they did and it caused a little controversy, but it brought a lot of attention to a very small movie directed by this guy, Michael Morris. He shot it in like three weeks on film here in town is middle of COVID. And it was just so funny because I, I didn't want to do it.

Like I read the script and it's sort of it's it takes place in Texas. The thrust of the story is about this woman who is a hopeless alcoholic who ends up in her hometown. And this guy who I play kind of gives her the space to start to rebuild her life a little bit by giving her a job at the hotel I manage.

So this is not a guy that's me. It's a Texan. He's a humble guy, a little bit beaten, but innately sort of giving and somewhat codependent. And I read the script. This is you. What are you talking about? That is Mark Maron. But see, I didn't see that really. But what I saw was a director asking me to do a part that he couldn't get John Hawks to do or any other fucking cowboy. There's nine, you know, there's...

20 guys in Hollywood. I love you said John Hawks. That's great. Right? Yeah. Perfect. So I'm like, I said to my management, who do you want me for? Who turned this down? I'm like this like aggravated Jew. You know, I'm sensitive, but like this is like there's guys that could just, you know, sleepwalk through this. So I didn't believe that he wanted me. And I was like, I'm not doing it. You know, and I'm still pretty much in grief and COVID's pretty like it's like all over the place. Heavy protocols. Yeah.

And, and then like my manager's like, no, he wants you. I'm like, I just stop it. I don't want to do it. And then out of nowhere, Chelsea Handler texts me like, why don't you meet with my friend, Michael Morris? He's directing that movie. I'm like, why is he got, and you don't want to piss her off. So I'm like, all right, you know, I'll talk to him. And, uh, so this guy, he's a British guy. He was directed, uh, I think better call Saul and some other ones. He's TV director. Nice guy. And he gets on the phone with me. I'm like, what, what, what, what, why do you, why do you, what do you want? What do you need me for?

And then he says, well, I just, you know, I thought the last season of Marin, my TV show was great. And you have something, there's an emotional element to you that I think would really work with this. And I'm like, oh man, he does want me. And I'm like, oh my God, now what do I do? So of course I said, well, all right. Okay. So I believe you, but no accents. And, but, but, but I, then the other thing I knew was that like,

like, you know, dude, if you want to do this acting thing, you're going to have to risk, you know, failing. You got, you know, you're going to have to try an accent. You got to try an accent. And I knew that like, as long as it's not Boston, you might have a shot. Don't do the Boston. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way you can. Yeah. And, uh, and so I'm like, all right, well, I got to do this. And the only reason why I felt like I could do it is I'd interviewed James Caan, you know, uh, uh,

shortly before he died. And he's like a ball busting maniac. And he was, and at the time it was on zoom and he was old and he didn't know where to look and he was wheezing and yelling at me, but it was great. Um, so, but I had watched all his old movies, like real old shit. And there's a movie called the rain people, which was a Coppola's first movie. And he plays this kind of like, uh, you know, mentally, uh, challenged person who was like the guy with the broom at the college that he played football at. And he had an accident, but he had, he was doing an accident.

And then I watched a couple other movies and he tried it a couple other times, but he'd never really do it that well. And then I realized like, oh, it doesn't fucking matter. Really? Yeah. You know, just try it. You know, the worst thing that happened is it goes in and out, but your performance will still have emotional integrity. But I'm not James Caan, but like he did it. And there was no reason that they think that he could do that. So, so I meet with this dialect coach.

And I always think this is a funny story, but I really think he made another reference. I can't remember her name. Tim Monaghan? No, woman. She's real good. Real good. You know, she works with Rockwell and some other people. Yeah.

And I tell her, I'm nervous about this. She goes, look, there's not really a Texan accent. There's a lot of different accents. Some of them are Southern, some of them, but there's not really a one Texas accent, but I think we should do Lubbock. And I'm like, okay, Lubbock sounds great. And then, so she sends me some links. Yeah. And I look at two of these links and they're just, they're not even televised interview. They're like, you know, the Grammys Association kind of backstage interviews with Mac Davis. Right.

Right. And I'm like, this is the only example of Lubbock available on the internet is these Mac Davis talking videos and old Matt Davis talking. Cause he was from Lubbock. Yeah.

And I'm like, all right. And then she gives me like the, you know, the sort of dialectic, you know, what do you call them? The keys, the pronunciations. Phonetics. Phonetics. Oh, the phonetics of the accent. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to do this work. Fuck it. You know, I'm going to do this work. Like, you know, I know that I can listen. I know that I can engage. I know I can be present in a scene. I can take direction. So this is the work is that, you know, you know, before each scene, you know, make your choices and get and figure out how to say this shit.

And I did it. You know, I did it. And I think I did all right. I did all right. And I'll bet you you were, I found when I did Fargo. Yeah. And I'm terrible at acting. Yeah. So, you know, I reduce everybody down to my level. Right. They're from Arizona. Yeah. Coincidentally, they're from Arizona. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Right. But I had to work so hard that I knew that every syllable of that script. Right. And it also informed my character. Did you find out that

All the work you put into the dialect was actually beneficial to how you acted? Well, yeah, because, you know, it's a different frequency. Yeah. Like, you can't just speak freely. You know, there's a deliberate... Yes. There's an intention to it. And because of that, it informed the character because it slowed me down.

You're fucked. You're an actor. You're an actor. You know, you can do podcasts all you want. You're an actor. Thank you. I'll take it. I remember I did one day, two days in Saving Private Ryan. Yeah. But I always thought it's kind of weird to be immersed in this astounding war movie. Yeah. And then, and I heard some people say, oh.

that's ted danson immediately you're out of the story you know you know well that's i guess that's the liability of being having baggage i have well being you know a popular character that everyone knows yeah but the other thing i that i learned that funny about actors because i talked to ethan hawke who i think can really do it when he sets his mind yeah he's spectacular yeah um

But we were talking, when I interviewed him, he was talking about training day, you know, with Denzel. Oof. But like, he told me, he said, I said, well, how'd you prepare for that? He's like, I watched all of Denzel's movies. As if they were game tapes. And he was on a football team. Yes. Because he was like, how am I not going to get eaten alive? Yeah. By Denzel Washington.

was his primary concern. How am I going to hold my own? So he just watched Denzel and got hanged. He saw all those tricks and figured it out. And I thought that was an amazing prep. That's so smart because if you don't do that and you're working with some big guy who especially you admire, you go to church and all of a sudden you're totally subservient like a puppy as opposed to smacking him around like you're supposed to. Has that happened to you? Yeah, a lot.

A lot. I'm a journeyman, man. I'm not, you know, the word artist never gets dangled in front of me. Can I go back for a second to what was, I mean, Joan Baez, that's astounding. Oh, yeah.

But so was President Obama. Yeah. How did that play out? You in your garage? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, you know... With a bunch of secret servants? Sure. It was a story I told a lot. But it was like, you know, it was a different interview because, you know, I had to create questions. We had a tight hour. I didn't want to get into politics. I wanted to do a personal interview. And we had to address some stuff. The

The entire event was of its own. You know, a lot of preparation had to go into it. You know, there were secret service that had to come a couple weeks before. They had to figure out what the perimeter was for protection. I asked my neighbor if we could put snipers on his roof and all that stuff. I remember I said to him, like, are you nervous? And he said, if I was nervous about this, we'd all be in trouble. Yeah.

You know, and then like I tried to, I had this idea about the presidency that was cynical. The presidency? Yeah, in general. That, you know, it is a civil servant job. And in my mind, you know, in terms of, you know, how, you know, lobbying works and how politics works, I'd always, you know, thought of the presidency as the highest level of middle management. Right. You know what I mean?

And you said this throughout. I kind of did. Yeah. And it didn't, I don't think it quite landed. Really? Didn't see the humor. No. But, but yeah, that was it. That was an exciting day. There's very few interviews that were not surprising to me, really. If you had to give up, do you consider music?

part of your, this is what I do in life. I do music as well, or is that a side thing? I do a little bit. No, I've always played, but in the last few years, I've sort of stepped out and played with people publicly and sang publicly, but it's still really a hobby. It was always sort of a dream, but it was not a dream I would pursue because it's a tough one. If you had to give up podcasts. Yeah.

No problem. No problem? Yeah. Really? I think. I don't know. It's so much part of my social life. Yeah. No, it's not that it's no problem, but I mean, like, you know, I...

I'm a comedian and I enjoy doing, I'm starting to enjoy things. I don't know how that happened. And I love doing the podcast. And again, it's always surprising to me. It never feels like a job, really. And again, it is a big part of my social life. And we've held our audience for a long time and we're still kind of looked at as a...

as an important podcast and one that people like listening to. And I think I do a thing a way that, that people don't, you know, that I'm kind of singular in some ways in the style. And, and I love it, but I think that, you know,

If it ever started to, like, you get to a point where for years we were not repeating guests and, you know, after 1,500 people. But oddly, the writer's strike and the actor's strike, you know, kind of brought in different types of people. Yeah, I mean, I interviewed Naomi Klein, who's a genius. Yeah. The writer, the leftist writer, and Jeff Charlotte, and, you know, I had Larry Charles in there, and

And, you know, like I'm still engaged with it. But I think that, you know, as we get older, I still believe somehow that, you know, stopping is possible. Sometimes I look at people your age or older and I'm like, what are you doing?

Take it easy, will you? But I think that's probably naive. I think that, you know, if you're a worker, you're going to want work. A couple of things. Mary sends her regards and said that it was her favorite

interview she's ever done. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I love it. I also happen to have interviewed her a few days ago, so that sucks to hear. And one more thing. You are so kind to come on this podcast.

You are a very wise, kind, sweet soul. Thanks. I hope that doesn't suck to hear. No. But I really admire you, and I'm really grateful that you came here. Absolutely. I mean, you're Ted Danson. Yeah, but that does... Means a lot to me. That's great when I'm looking in the mirror. I really enjoy being... But other than that, there's not much to it. It was my pleasure. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah, appreciate it. Who has to pee the most? You or me? You, probably. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you so much to Mark Maron. It was an honor to have you on the show. Thank you. Check out his hit podcast, WTF, with Mark Maron and his HBO special, From Bleak to Dark. That's all for this episode. Special thanks to our friends at Team Coco. Just a reminder, you can always watch the full-length videos of these episodes by visiting youtube.com slash teamcoco.

As always, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Why not? See you next time, where everybody knows your name.

You've been listening to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson, sometimes. The show is produced by me, Nick Liao. Executive producers are Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and myself. Sarah Federovich is our supervising producer. Our senior producer is Matt Apodaca. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel with support from Eduardo Perez. Research by Alyssa Graal. Talent booking by Paula Davis and Gina Batista.

Our theme music is by Woody Harrelson, Anthony Gann, Mary Steenburgen, and John Osborne. We'll have more for you next time, where everybody knows your name.

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