Julia Gets Wise with Patti LaBelle
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Hey, listeners, it's me, Julia. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me, and we have so much more wisdom to share from the legendary older women who have joined me this season. I can't tell you the number of times when I'm having these conversations, I find myself scrambling for like a piece of paper or a napkin or whatever I can find in my desk to quickly jot down some nugget that my guest is sharing in our conversation. I mean, you've probably had the same experience, right? Well, guess what?

Problem solved. We have created brand new Wiser Than Me notebooks with fun sayings on the cover like get wise or wise up so you can keep all your newfound wisdom in one place. We just added these groovy hardcover notebooks to our merch shop. To buy yours, head over to wiserthanmeshop.com today. Lemonada.

So I'm not good at technical things. If it's digital, I can't do it. Or really, I won't do it. I mean, I'm sure I'm missing out on a lot of stuff, but in the end, who really gives a shit? I get by just fine, thanks. Except for one thing, music. I love to listen to music. It's one of the three or four things I enjoy most in life. When I was in high school and college, we had a record player.

A record player, remember those? Oh my God, the hours and hours that I would listen to music. Slap Stevie Wonder's talking book on the turntable, place the needle on the record, music comes out of the speakers. Nothing to it. And then records died. Fine, whatever. Stick the Stevie Wonder CD in the thing, press play. I could do that. And look, I certainly don't want to be the, well, back in my day kind of person. Right?

especially on a show about how older women make such valuable contributions right now. But now it's all Spotify and Apple Music, and that's great when I've got my phone in my pocket and my ear things in. But what about when I want to dance around my kitchen? What is washing dishes, you know, without Ray Charles blaring or Parliament Funkadelic when you're making the bed? OK, I can't make that happen.

And we have what the rest of my family claims is a very straightforward system that is utter and complete bullshit. But here I am, they say, with every song ever recorded. And I think there are like 100 million songs on Spotify or something all right there at my fingertips. And how often do I listen to music in my own home? If I'm alone, never. Seriously, I'm not kidding you. Never. And

And what a giant loss that is. Our house used to be filled with music. I remember making cassette tapes of playlists when our kids were born. Oh, my God, music for nap time, music for waking up.

Just music, music. Our house was full of music. And it made such an imprint on our boys. For example, our son Henry, he started playing guitar in middle school. And when he was in high school, he was in a jazz band. So at Christmas, the school would have a holiday concert and the jazz band played a song or two. So fantastic.

And these were always instrumentals, right? But at this concert, at the end, they bring out a microphone. And R. Henry, in his little suit and tie, steps up to the microphone and he says, this is Tenderness by Paul Simon. Okay, look, we had no idea this was going to happen. He hadn't said anything, nothing. So the band plays that first chord. Right.

Do you know that song? What can I do? What can I do? And Henry starts to sing his version of that song. And it was shocking. I mean, we knew he could sing. He was in a good rock band. But this? What? We'd never heard him do this. It was like a complete transformation. It was transporting. And it came out of nowhere. It's like a movie. We were so astonished. And girls were, whoo, whoo.

They're all screaming. And Henry's voice was like sailing up higher and higher because he has this gorgeous tenor voice. And his dad and I looked at each other and we knew without a doubt that this guy was going to be a singer, a musician. And of course, that's exactly what he is. In fact, he writes the music for this podcast. Do yourself a favor and listen to him on Spotify if you can figure out how to work it.

Because seriously, he is just unusually good. And I say that as a music critic, not as his mother. And God damn it, I want to hear my own son's music on Spotify loud in my kitchen. Which, okay, so this brings me back to my technical infirmities. Henry had a live show a couple of nights ago at a great venue here in Los Angeles called Zebulon. I bought tickets online. And when we got to Zebulon, I brought the tickets up on my phone and I tried to get up the QR code.

thing or whatever the fuck it is, and I can't do it. And of course, there are people behind us in the line, and the show's coming up, and I don't want to hold up the line. And the nice kid at the box office offers to help me, ma'am, he says. And I see this very handsome young door guy watching this, and he's smiling. He's laughing a little bit at me, and I'm thinking, oh, come on. What? I'm that lady? I'm the one who can't figure out her own telephone? Please. The world has passed me by. God damn it!

But then the scanner went beep. And we went in and the show started. And in 30 seconds, none of that mattered because the music was not just good, it was spectacular. And there I was doing one of the three or four things I love the most, listening to great music.

And really, everything else fell away. Nothing else mattered. I was completely lost in it. Looking at my Henry on stage, I could see the direct line between his high school jazz band and this night. And I was completely happy. Because really, is there anything better than the simple pleasure of a good singer singing a good song? Especially a singer you love with all your heart.

So how wonderful then that today we are talking to the great Patti LaBelle. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

In 1954, a very shy 10-year-old girl walked up to Beulah Baptist Church in West Philadelphia for the first time. So shy, in fact, that until that day, her mother had to convince her to go outside and play with other kids by paying her a quarter each time. But in that church, there was no money.

Things started to change for her. Under the guidance of Ms. Harriet Chapman, her choir director, gospel songs began to fill her head. The solos came, standing ovations started to roll in, people saying, that girl sure can sing. Ms. Harriet told our guest, never stop singing. Whatever you do, don't stop. And guess what? Patti LaBelle is not stopping.

You could right now go see Patti LaBelle perform live where you'd hear her sing incredible hits like the original Lady Marmalade, On My Own, and New Attitude. What you can expect at a Patti LaBelle show is drama, shoes flying, and a damn good time. That personality on stage, that big voice, and 18 studio albums have rightfully earned her the title of the godmother of soul.

Beyond music, she's an accomplished entrepreneur, actress, and a New York Times bestselling author of several incredible cookbooks. She has transformed her culinary talent into a multi-million dollar empire with her brand, Good Life, which includes her viral sweet potato pies. Mastering one craft is challenging enough, but my God, Patti LaBelle has mastered many.

In 2023, she was named one of Forbes Magazine's 50 over 50. She's a Grammy winner, an NAACP Image Award winner, a GLAAD Media Award recipient, and an inductee into the Grammy Hall of Fame. Yet the accolades she has received are not for her alone. A core part of who Patti is involves helping others. And I can't wait to talk about that.

Patti was one of the first recording artists to support AIDS causes in the 80s and 90s and is still a fierce advocate for gay rights. Not to mention her band La Belle performed in the gay bathhouse circuit, the same that launched Bette Midler and Barry Manilow in the 70s. Most recently, she launched a consulting firm called Z-Pack dedicated to assisting BIPOC and women-owned food businesses in getting their products onto the shelves of big box retailers.

She is taking what she has learned and is helping others succeed. A positive force, force, all caps, in a troubled and so often negative time. And that is why I am deeply thrilled to be talking today to an icon, a mother, a grandmother, an entrepreneur who is so much wiser than me, Patti LaBelle. Patti, you're giving me goosebumps. Just talking about this is giving me goosebumps, for real. Yeah.

Oh, thank you so much, Joy. It's giving me goosebumps talking to you. It's a delight. Thank you. Thank you. So, Patti, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? I'm 80. You're 80. 80 and happy. Yeah, a good 80. How old do you feel, Patti? I feel 30. You do? Yes, I feel 30. And

And the 80 is working. It's working. I've never been ashamed of saying my graduation. Whenever I turn 75, that's a graduation. I graduate each day in age, which some ladies and men are afraid to say how old they are.

And my sisters all died in the early 40s. Yes. So whenever I made 50, I knew I had graduated. You know, and every other year was just like putting on another year that they didn't make it.

So I'm honored to be 80. Oh, boy, is that something. I was going to ask you what's the best part about being your age, but you just answered it. I mean, I love the idea of thinking of aging as graduating. That's so cool because it implies what you've learned. It implies an education, doesn't it? Oh, it does. A true education. I have learned at every age something great.

And something that you say to yourself, well, maybe because my family died young, I might not make it to 70. And I did. And I'm 80 and still striving. Yeah.

And still realizing it's a blessing. And now here you are. And I have to say for our listeners, looking positively exquisite. Patty's wearing this gorgeous white top with multiple strands of pearls. And honestly, short bob haircut, you look divine. Thank you, Julia.

So this year you celebrated your 80th birthday, and I understand your son, Zuri, surprised you. And you said you're really hard to surprise. I can't believe the pictures I saw from your party. That was a crazy party. I need to know details about it. How did you know, like, what to wear? How did he get you there without you knowing? I know.

I knew at 80 I was going to have a big, big party. Yes. So my friend Zhang Toy made a beautiful dress for me. Before I knew where the party would be or any details. Yes. But I knew I had to celebrate with a beautiful dress. Yeah. So I got the dress and I kept saying to my son, why don't you just tell me? He said, tell you what? I said, just tell me where it's going to be. Yeah. Because I know it's going to be. Yeah.

And so then he told me this big story one day about I had to get dressed because we were having a meeting with Walmart. I said, since when do I have to get dressed, dressed up for a meeting with Walmart? But I did. Wait a minute. Were you suspicious or did you buy into it? Of course I was. No, I was suspicious because I knew he was lying. I knew it wasn't going to be a party with Walmart. But...

Because I am who I am, I got dressed and put on that beautiful blue dress and said, let me let him think that I don't know any better. And then we went to the party. It was in New York because I live in Philadelphia. And so I knew it was going to be a fabulous night.

And when I walked in the door, all my friends were there. Oh, God. Everybody that I loved in show business from back in the day, friends that I hadn't seen in 20 years. Just so many wonderful people who enjoyed celebrating with Patty Patty. Yeah, that's so good. I love it. Yes.

You tour eight to 11 months out of the year. Is that still the case? Oh, yeah. I tour all the time. A lot of people think that I've stopped singing. I said, oh, no, Google me, honey. I'm on tour a lot. So can you just talk about the realities of keeping your voice in shape? What is your routine?

I have no routine to keep my voice in shape. What? No routine. No, not at all. Stop it. Don't you drink tea or anything? Do you warm up? I don't drink tea. No, I don't warm up either. I think I'm a bad person to not do the things that most singers do. I just wake up and I could sing perfectly in the morning at 6 or 7 in the morning. So that's a blessing, and I never...

I've never done anything to make this happen. I've never had lessons. I've never, I'm just a whatever I am. Do you have perfect pitch? I have perfect pitch. You do? Uh-huh. Yes. Thank God. That is so cool. Yeah.

You've had so many wonderful and deep friendships with people that we know, you know, as icons like Prince and Mick Jagger and Nina Simone. And one through line through all of this is that you have, in addition to knowing them as artists and being with them as artists, you've cooked meals for them. I've cooked for so many. Richard Pryor for, of course, the Rolling Stones.

Elton John was my piano player back in the day. And so his band would come to my flat after the shows and we'd play cards for money. And they lost every time. They didn't have any pounds. No pounds. So I won all the pounds and sent them home with Tupperware with food every night. We played because...

They couldn't afford food. Right. So here's the story with Elton. Tell. So we were buddies, buddies, buddies. And so he called me one night and said, hello, Patty. I'm not going to do his accent because I can't. He said, hello, Patty. I said, yeah. He said, this is me, Elton. No, Reggie. Oh.

Oh. I said Reggie because he was Reggie Dwight. His band was Bluesology, I think. And he was Reggie at that time. He was not Elton John. Was that he was born Reggie? Was that his birth name? Yes. And so he called me and said, Patty, it's Reggie. I said, oh, hey, Reg. He said, I want you to come to my show tonight. I said, a show? Where?

He said, at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. So I said, oh, who are you opening for? Yeah. He said, I'm Elton John now. I said, you have a... Did I tell him some bad things? I said, you made it before me, honey. Yes. And it was just a beautiful...

Beautiful moment. And so later we recorded together in Vegas when he did the Red Piano Show in Vegas. Yes. And we recorded a duet together. And after the song was done, he had taken his rings off. Yes. And I said, so here are your rings, Elton. And he said, no, that's for your Tupperware that you gave me back in the day. So he paid me with a beautiful ring.

Yes. Oh, my goodness. Do you still have that ring? I have it upstairs in my box. Yes. I'm dying to see what that ring looks like. I'm keeping that ring. Of course you are. Do you know what that ring is, Kim? I could show you. Would you show me? Could you get it? Sure. I would love to see it. It's so beautiful. It's so manly. So I never wear it. Yeah. But I...

But it's so meaningful. And the story behind it, because what he did was you made food for him, but then he kept the Tupperware and he didn't return it. And that kind of bugged you, right? It's because I love to get my shopping bags, if I give you food, and my Tupperware back. Well, I understand that. It makes sense. It's kind of rude not to give it back.

I love my Tupperware and my shopping bag, good shopping bags. Yeah, so he did pay me back that day at Caesars when we were recording. After the recording session, he gave me the ring that he had taken off to play the song. And he's a good friend. Yeah. Yeah. I have so many friends in this business of Prince's.

who wanted me to cook for him. So he took me to his home and they went grocery shopping for me, his people. And when I made about eight items or more,

The only thing he ate were the biscuits. Was he not a big eater? What's the deal? Well, he was kind of a small man. He is small. So he made me cook all that food and he ate a biscuit. I said, what's up? He said, that's all I wanted. I just wanted to see you cook. Oh, my God. And then he took me to his, it was a disco, a club.

Before that, he had outfits made for me at his studio because he had a tailor shop in his building. Is this in Minneapolis? In Minneapolis. And he had four outfits made for me. And then I cooked for him that day. And then that night, he took me to the club.

And we danced and we drove in the alphabet car. You remember the alphabet car? Sure, I do. So many wonderful memories with those guys. Did you enjoy collaborating with him in particular as an artist? Was it sort of an elevated experience, Patty? It was more than that. And the thing is, sometimes producers make you record a song like 20, 30, 40, 50 times for that one song. When we did our song, You'll Missed Her,

He said, that's it on the first take. No way. He did not want a second take. He said, because the first take was magic.

And I appreciate that so much because sometimes you get in a studio and they make you work, work, work, work. When you think you had it in the first five takes and sometimes you'll continue to record and continue it. And then they end up using maybe the first or the second. But Prince knew he wanted that one take. Isn't that fascinating? I mean, he was an artist. He was a true artist. Oh, boy. Here comes the ring. Here comes the ring.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, it's beautiful. It's a diamond ring, and it looks like it has crosses on it, right? Yes. Like four different crosses. Uh-huh.

And it looks like it's pave diamond, right? Yes. It's so heavy and just so beautiful. It's heavy, but you know, it's beautiful. And Patty, I have to tell you something. I think you can get away with wearing that. I don't think that looks too manly on your hand at all. It doesn't really fit on the fingers that I... Like this finger is too small. This one...

It's kind of big on it. It's a big ring. It's a little too big for my fingers. And it doesn't fit on this one. Well, you could have it sized, Patty. I'm just telling you. I'm in favor of you wearing that ring. I love it. You're in favor of me wearing it? Well, I'll get it fitted. Get it fitted. Yeah. I will. Yes. So I still have your ring, Elton.

I have it. That's beautiful. Thank you. That is beautiful. Thanks, Kim. And I love that story about Prince, too. And I also understand that you travel. I mean, you're such a cook, and you love to cook so much. You travel with spices. What are the spices you travel with? You must have very specific ones. Oh, my gosh. In season, I travel with habanero peppers because they're the hottest. And monkey peppers, bird peppers, anything that's hot. Hot.

are not so hot, but the habaneros are crazy, blazing hot. So I carry those. I carry fresh garlic. I carry certain sea salts.

And grapeseed oil I travel with. Oh, interesting. And when we get to the town, we'll find a farmer's market to get the fish and fresh foods, fresh meats and fresh vegetables. Yes. And I make sure I have those and I carry my pots and pans on the road.

And so if you're going to a farmer's market and you're, I'm kind of going off topic here, but I'm so interested to know. Go ahead. When you're going to a farmer's market like that in whatever town you're in, I'm assuming you're kind of maybe making things up as you go along because you don't know what you're going to come across at the farmer's market, right? Never know. No, you never know. You never know. So I'm very spontaneous when it comes to cooking and cooking.

having to go to a store if they don't have what I really need, I'll find it. And if not, I'll improvise, you know. I love that. I love that. I wish you lived close to me because I've got, I have a huge Serrano chili plant right now. It has a lot of chilies on it. And I don't need to eat a lot of those. I would be so happy to send them your way. Well, send them to me. Whenever. We'll get them.

It's time to take a quick break. We'll be back with Patti LaBelle in just a few moments. ♪

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So you grew up as the second youngest of five children, correct? Yes. And as I said before, you were very shy and

But now, now look at you. You have such, you have this huge social life. Yes. When, when did you grow out of that? How did, what was this evolution for you? I don't remember how old I was when I became not so shy. But it was so bad my mother would pay me a quarter to go out and play with

Right.

So I was just born a shy girl. Do you ever feel that shyness coming back, Patty? Yes. Every now and then it comes back. And how do you manage it? And tell me how it comes back. I'm so curious. It comes back at moments, and I can't explain why it comes back at times. But when it does, it leaves quickly because I can't handle it. I know that I have to be out of that shy state to do what I do. Before we go on stage, we pray.

And when I see the audience...

That brings me back to not being so shy because they're so giving. So you feel the energy from the audience? I feel the energy from the audience. And when you go out, you never know what audience you're going to have. You don't know if they've never seen you before, if they're trying to say, okay, we're going to give this chick a try. And then when I get out, one of the things that I say in the middle of the show, how many people are seeing me for the first time?

And maybe 80% of the audience raised their hand.

And so then I said, well, fasten your seatbelts because it's going to be a bumpy ride. And I hope you will come back to see me once you see me tonight. I love that you take the energy and it kind of lifts you up. It's like arms outstretched to you. And I think that's phenomenal. Yeah. So, Patty, going back to your musical beginnings, your older brother introduced you to jazz, right? Yes. He was a Nina Simone, James Moody fanatic. And.

And I learned to love jazz. I mean, because of him. Right. And then I'm jumping ahead here, but then you got to know Nina Simone personally, didn't you? Oh, she was my good friend. Yes. We would talk maybe once every two weeks. Goodness. She was just a wonderful friend.

And we talked about food. We talked about, she talked about everything with me. What did you learn from her? What did you learn from Nina Simone? Well, there was a time we were doing a show at Carnegie Hall with Sting, Elton. Oh, my God. A few wonderful people. And she was with me. And I asked for a glass of wine and they brought it to me in a plastic cup.

She said, oh, no, darling, you never drink out of plastic. Crystal only. Crystal only. You know, it's just she was just like a teacher. But that can't be the only thing you learned from her to drink out of crystal. Her music. I mean, she was one of a kind. She was way ahead of most people for the rights of the right people. That's right. Yeah. So, I mean, I learned that I am.

I just stayed with her whenever she would call or I would call her. And it was just like mother lessons, you know, that she was just... Mother lessons. Yeah, just her. Her period was a blessing to me. Yeah. I can just say she was like one of my better friends in life. Mm-hmm. Not just musically, just life.

things that happen in life. And just a strong, strong woman she was. And I believe you cook for her too, particularly like at the end of her life. I did. I was at, I think we were at the London Hotel in New York. I can't remember the name of the hotel. We were staying at the same hotel because we were doing the Carnegie Hall show. Yes. And she was in my hotel. And so she called me and said, Patty, what are you doing? So I said, I'm making lunch. And so...

She said, what are you making? I said, I'm making hot sausage. I mean, they were really hot from the farmer's market in Philly. I brought them with me to New York. And she said, I would like one. And so I went up to her room and she was there in her way of being at that time. And my friend Norma, who does my hair, came up with me. She said, no, no, not Norma, just you.

So I went in and gave her the hot sausage and she just showed me what she was going through. It was very personal. And she just opened up to me. And when she ate it, I said, now you're going to need a lot of water to go after that hot, hot. So she said, after she finished, she said, go make me another one. And they were on fire.

I said, oh, you're my kind of girl. Yeah. So we had quite great personal moments just as a friend. That's just so beautiful. So you had...

Three sisters. What was the dynamic like between you and your sisters when you were growing up? Oh, God. The dynamic with my sisters, we fought. You did. We loved. We hugged. We had issues with crabs, hardshell crabs. What do you mean issues? Issues because we all loved hardshell crabs, male crabs, the gigantic ones. Yeah. So we would get bushels of crabs on the weekend. And so whenever they were cooked...

I would go in the pot first and take the bigger ones. And my sisters would hate me for this. Why do you always have to get the big ones? And they would say a few curse words to me. I said, because I can, you know. So we would have fights about my taking the big crabs. And it always ended up that I got the bigger ones because I was a

I was a picker. I knew how to get in that pot and pick before they got in the kitchen. Just crazy things, but we loved each other, but we fought like sisters. And they were very fashionable too, I understand, right? Your sisters, weren't they? Oh, I used to wear my sister's Vivian. When she went to work, I would get her clothes and wear them to school.

And she would come back and say, somebody's been in my clothes because I never put them back properly. You know, so, yeah, we had fights about that. But she was a dressing woman. Yes. Really? Yeah, she knew how to dress. Maybe you got a sense of fashion from her because...

Actually, your outfits when you were with LaBelle, those outfits were completely ahead of their time, don't you think? Oh, God. They were ahead of time, yes. They were. They really were. I mean, you really kind of – I mean, I think I even heard you say we were Lady Gaga before there was Lady Gaga, the way you would come out and present yourselves, right? We were Gaga and Madonna before they were Kiss. Right. They wanted to dress like –

like our outfits. So they got in touch with our designer, Larry Legaspi, and said, we want to have some things like LaBelle. And so he made things for them. It was such a compliment. It was a compliment when Gaga or Madonna, like Sarah Dash wore the beautiful silver breastplates, Madonna wore them. And it was after they saw Sarah with them. And it was so many compliments thrown our way because we

We did it first. Yes, of course. In your memoir, you talk about having low self-esteem as a child, which we discussed. And you didn't consider yourself beautiful, which I find astounding, by the way, because you are truly a beauty. Well, thank you. I never saw myself as beautiful. I saw myself as a real woman looking the way I look.

not wanting to make any difference on my face, but I did. I had a nose job, you know, and that didn't make me any prettier. It just took away some of the nose. But I've learned lately that it doesn't really matter what you look like. It doesn't, you know, I dress up and get made up and haired up for the shows because I'm in show business. And

But if not, I'll be just like, right now, I'm not really basically made up or haired up. I'm Julia up, you know? So this is kind of quiet. If this is quiet, I...

I mean, honestly, I cannot. I think you look spectacular. You could go to the Academy Awards looking the way you do right now. Thank you, honey. What do you mean that you learned it lately? You said, I've learned lately that what you look like doesn't really matter. Because I realize what I am inside. I am a person with a good heart. And makeup and the hair is not going to make me a better person.

It's not going to make me a better person. As I've gotten older, I've realized that that does not make me. It doesn't make me. As long as I can sing and perform and make somebody happy, that's good. Sometimes I say I could just do it with a pair of jeans, not with an awesome costume or something, because they came to see Patti LaBelle. They didn't come to see the costume, although I'm a dressing drag queen. I do dress up. I do, I do, I do.

And it feels good, but I realize that we can't put all that emphasis on how we look all the time. Yeah, it can be exhausting, right? It is exhausting. And you have this musical instrument, and that blessing is the one that, I mean, let's face it. That's my life, yeah. That's your life. The music is my life. That is your life. Yes.

When you were with the Bluebells, the group was you, Sarah Dash, Nona Hendricks, and Cindy Bird's song. And then Cindy left, right? Cindy left to go with the Supremes. The Supremes in 1967. At the time that that happened, did that shake your confidence? When it happened, it shook my confidence because it happened. It did. It was not.

knowledge of our group that she was leaving to go with the Supremes. So we were performing in Cleveland, I think, and we were waiting for her to come down and she never came down, you know, to go to the dressing room. And so somehow we found out, I think it was the next night that she had joined the Supremes.

You didn't even find out from her. You just found it out from some other way. We found out at the time. I don't remember exactly how, but it wasn't from Cindy. No, she did not call us. And I just felt so betrayed and just so sad. Sure. And then I thought about it.

I said, maybe if I were in her position and one of the best-selling female groups asked me to join them, I might have said yes because they were making much more money than we were. Yes. So I kind of understood her reasoning after a while, and then I prayed for her. And I said, I wish you the best of luck. You know, so I had to take it, and I had to—

Not dislike her for that. Yeah. It's just the way she went about it maybe was a mistake on her part. It was the way that it was done, yes. Yeah. Have you had conversations with her subsequently and come to a peaceful place? I've had conversations with her and Diana. You know, so it was something that...

At the time, Diana wanted to do and Barry Gordy or whoever, they wanted to replace Florence Ballard. Right. And she was very close to looking like Florence Ballard and sounding like Florence Ballard. I see. So after a while, I realized that they did what they had to do. Right. And I did what I had to do, and that was to keep on keeping on. Keep on keeping on. Yeah, I couldn't hold that anger. I couldn't hold it any longer. Right.

Yeah, because it'll eat you up. Yes. And since then, we've talked. Diana and I have talked. We're friends. Good. You know, so there's no hard feelings at this time. So it's a done deal. That's a done deal. That's finished now. You started going to therapy, I think you did, around the time that Cindy left the group. Is that right? No, I went to therapy after the group broke up. Oh, after the group broke up.

Okay. With me, Sarah and Nona. When we broke up as a group, I didn't want to be blamed as the one who left the group. I didn't want to be... Sometimes they said Diana Ross was the reason they broke up, the Supremes or whatever. Yes. I didn't want it to be said that Patti LaBelle broke the group up. I see. So I had to go to therapy because it was hard for me to go out on that stage some nights solo.

without them. But the reason we broke up is because the three of us wanted to do different music. Sure. And so to stay together as a group, we'd be lying to the public. So we had to make that move. And like I said, we're still talking yesterday, me and Nona. We lost Sarah, which is so sad. But we're still the best of friends. But at that time, I needed help. I needed a shrink.

Yeah, I get it. I mean, I think endings are very difficult. They can be really difficult for me, too. I mean, not that I had a fabulous girl group, but, you know, when jobs end...

particularly longstanding jobs. Yes. That can be a ground shift, can't it? It's scary. It's scary. It's totally scary. Because you don't know who's going to blame you for the breakup. You know, at that time, I didn't know. Yeah, but also, it's sort of like, who am I without that? You know? Mm-hmm.

It's so many things. So many things. So many things go through your mind. Right. And so you have to, like, deal with it. And my way of dealing was to see somebody. I had to get help. Yeah. Yeah. Smart. There's much more with Patti LaBelle after this break. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

Bye.

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So, Patti, what was it like earlier in your career touring in the South? Because, I mean, on one hand, you're building up this fan base and a name for yourself. But on the other hand, it's the height of Jim Crow. Yeah, it was bad. We traveled in a station wagon, you know, throughout the South. And there were times when we couldn't get a hotel. So we stayed in the station wagon. We would buy our tickets.

tuna and chocolate candy bars and whatever, and just stay in the station wagon because there were no hotels that were going to really let us board. In the South, there were some Black hotels that we would find, but we were not allowed to dwell in the White hotels. So we spent a lot of time in the station wagon, and we realized that for us, that was all there was.

And so you take it or you leave it. You fight it or you settle. So we had to settle because we couldn't change the laws, you know, and it didn't take anything away from us as far as our performance. We still worked. But you really have to know that there was a big, big gap.

Big difference in white acts and black acts. And what it did for us was just grew us up. Yeah, I bet. Really quickly. It did. Really quickly. It grew us up. You know, so when we did our thing, we did it with knowing that there was going to be a lot of rejection.

And you live with it or you fight it. It made us stronger. That's what I'm saying. Every lesson wasn't a negative ending. Yes. Every lesson that we dealt with grew us up. Yeah. And realized that we're not going to be treated the way we want to be treated all the time. You know, so the way you're treated is the way you're going to live with and the way you're going to expect.

And then when it changes, that's like a big old rose. Oh, it wasn't so bad that night. But, you know, that wasn't often. So we did that and we did it knowing what we're going to go into. Yeah. We knew it wasn't going to be great all the time.

And it must have just, you must have formed a bond with those women like no other, right? We created this love for each other, I mean, that we weren't going to get from most people traveling. So we just grew to hold on to each other and to make each other laugh and play jokes on each other and just have fun. Yeah. You know, because what we had to do to get there wasn't always great. Right, right. Wow. Yeah.

God, I mean, you've nurtured relationships with so many artists like Jennifer Hudson and Fantasia. God, I love Fantasia. And Mariah Carey. And you said that you didn't want them to make the same mistakes you made. What are some of the important lessons that you've learned in your life that you shared with them?

Of course, I share with all of them what we went through at the beginning of our careers. LaBelle, Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles, the things that we went through in the South, the things that we took for granted would come for us and it never did. But you tell all these, like I talk to them, Fantasia, Jennifer, Mariah, like you said, all my little girls. And they will call me every now and then for information, for just some kind of

that I've gone through that they might be going through. Interesting. And so I'm like a godmother. Yeah. Godmother. Yeah.

And you've always been very, I mean, you've had an incredible eye for spotting talent, right? Like Luther Vandross, by the way. Oh, yes. And Elton John. And Elton John, yeah. It's Luther was our first fan club president, but he would come to the Apollo Theater with clothes for us. Yeah. So I said, oh, who is this man with all these...

He had like four gowns. They were pink and gray, beautiful gowns. And so, of course, he had all of our sizes and everything. Really? And so I said, well, what else do you do other than bring clothes? He said, I sing. I said, oh, really? And so I said, sing. And he sang. I said, honey, you shouldn't be peddling these clothes. You should have a microphone and go out and make yourself a living with your voice.

And then we became good friends, and he became our first fan club president. And then did he launch his own career after that? Yeah, because he was singing a lot of backgrounds with different people at the time, I think, that we met him. I'm not sure. But he ended up making his own life possible.

The best life for him. Singing not background, but singing lead. Yeah, of course. And I'm so struck by your generosity. Who modeled all this generosity for you? Who was generous with you the way you are so generous with others? My mother. Yes. And my father. Yes. They were very giving people. Yes. And my sisters were also very, very much givers.

And so I took a lot of that from them. Hey, listen, when the Nightbirds came out in 1974, right? And that was the first huge, big hit album for you guys. And the lead single was Lady Marmalade. Yes.

You know, I have to tell you something. That is such a formative tune, I mean, as it is for millions of people. But I was 13 when that song came out, and I couldn't believe that song. It was so sexy. Yeah. And I used to sing that, and you could sing it because it was in French, so you could kind of get away with it. And I just remember feeling so kind of like...

what's the word, like a rebel singing that tune loud in my house, you know what I mean? Along with you guys. Did you know it was going to be a hit? I knew it was going to be a hit, but I didn't know what Bully Ruka Sheva Gwa meant. Get out of town. I'm serious, honey. I had no clue it meant, will you sleep with me tonight?

So when we heard it, when we went to Alan Toussaint to record Nightbirds, I said, let's make this our first song to record for this album. As a song was recorded, we knew it was a hit. And after it was out, we had some...

Some interesting people saying, wow, why are they singing about a hooker? It was nuns talking about, oh, that group is not nice. We're singing about hookers. I had no clue what Vooley Voo meant.

Amazing. We got a little moment. A little blowback for that? A little bit. Yeah. Who cares? But we continued to sing it. Yeah. You know, it's like I said, a lady marmalade hooker is a hooker. I'm not, but I'm singing it.

Yes. So it was a very interesting song. Yeah, it's a great song. It's incredible. LaBelle did the Gay Bathhouse Circuit, right? Oh, yes. Yeah, and also the first black group to play Metropolitan Opera House. Yes, yes.

Which is incredible. I saw that poster. I just thought that poster for that show is so beautiful. It's bananas. Oh, gosh. We were at the Metropolitan Opera House, our first black group to play. Yes. And the show was called Wear Something Silver. And so everybody came with silver outfits on.

The Psycho Sluts, they came. It was some, I don't know if Cher was there that night, but that's when I think I came from the ceiling flying down singing Nightbirds. And we just had a crazy, wonderful night at the Metropolitan Opera House.

And we did play the bathhouses. I know. Back in the day. You and Bette Midler did it. Bette Midler. Yes. Yeah, we did that. Oh, and guess what happened? Tell me. At the bathhouse. What? I went to the machine thinking it was bubble gum. And so we put money in and it was condoms.

They looked like bubble gum things falling out. I said, what the hell is this? I hope you didn't put it in your mouth and try to chew it. No, no. But it was Sarah. They laughed. They laughed so hard. Yeah, we were putting money in the machine getting bubble gum, I thought.

Did you get blowback for that, for playing in bathhouses? Never did we get blowback for playing in bathhouses. Good. At least I don't know about it. Right. I don't think so. But, I mean, you have been so accepting of the gay community from way back in the day, and maybe at a time when it was not as...

widely acceptable to be gay, right? But you were. You were. Yeah, I have had a gay following from the beginning. Sarah and Nona and myself and Cindy, we had a gay following. Yeah. Which I take as a compliment. Of course. Yeah, without question. And I think I have a gay following too, by the way. I think I have a

I bet you do. I don't know how to make that determination. I'm being told that I do. Good. Yes. So we have that in common, and I'm grateful for it. Patty, I learned this fact about you that just blew me away. So here you are at the top of your game, but in your 40s.

You used to say farewell to your fans after every show because you really believed you would not live beyond 50, right? Because of all my sisters, yeah. All your sisters. That it wouldn't last long. Yes, I did. And your friend Claudette, too, who passed away young. Right. Mm-hmm.

Patty, can you talk about living with that fear at the time of your mammoth success? Because they bump up against each other, don't they? The feeling of, I'm not going to make it, but you've made it at the same time as an artist. Of course you would think that. I mean, after I turned a certain age, I would say, well, am I next? Yeah. As far as...

going through what my sisters went through. That's right. And when I turned a certain age, I just said, well, God is with me. When it's my turn, it's my time. But is that when you turned 50, I think? Is that right? After I turned 50, yes. And I just said every day,

Something could happen, and it didn't. It didn't. And I'm still standing. So I just thank God for all the time that I have and all the time that I have left. But you had a lot of anxiety about it, and then all of a sudden it seems like that anxiety just— It left. It left.

It left. It just left. Yes. That's good. The anxiety left. Yes, it did. Maybe it was just the marker of getting past a certain age. Yeah. I lost my sister, actually, and she was 44, if you can believe it. Oh, the same ages as mine. I know. Yeah. That's why I was so struck by that in your life. What did she pass from?

She was just really ill. Oh. Yeah. Sorry. So, yeah, really tragic. But it so upends your life because it's not the way the world is supposed to work. No, it's not. It's not the order of things. And that's why it's hard to kind of – well, that's why you're frightened. That's why. It's natural. It's natural. Yeah. It's natural because it doesn't feel –

It's natural to be frightened because it's so unnatural. Unnatural. And never know when it's going to happen. Right, exactly. Well, I'm sorry. Thank you. I'm sorry for you, too. Thank you. I'm sorry for you, too. Thank you. And you've been very open about when your sister Jackie passed away, and you've come to terms with what? Do you mind talking about that right now? Well, she wanted me to prepare her lunch. Okay.

egg sandwich fried egg sandwich because I made great sandwiches and she was around the corner at the hospital yeah where I lived at the time I moved since then and my aunt was at the hospital with her and so that's the day I had gotten back from touring and so I was kind of tired I said can I make it tomorrow and she said yes and tomorrow comes and my aunt calls and says your sister's gone

Oh, God. So I didn't get a chance. Yeah. That's not good. No, but you've forgiven yourself for that, and she knows that you love her. Doesn't she, Patty? Mm-hmm. Tissue. Yes. She knew it. Yeah, she knew it. Yeah. Yeah. But you just think about things you didn't do. Right. But isn't that always the case? When you lose people you love, there are, you know— Things that you said you could have done.

Yeah, of course. Believe me. And I say the same thing. Believe me with my own sister. But at the end of the day, you were... At the end of the day, I realized that she was my love. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry for crying. No, that's okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you cry. No. It's just the way it is. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And now you feel, I believe, I hope that you have peace about it. I do. About that. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to talk about when I think I can talk about it, then I realize I really can't. Yeah. It catches you. It's like being hit from behind or something. Yeah. I understand that. Yes. Well, Patty, is there something...

That you would go back and tell yourself at age 21? At age 21, I would have said to myself, don't be so afraid. Don't be so shy. Don't be so scared. Not scared, but scared. Don't be so scared. Just know that your life is going to turn out all right. And I have lived to see that. Yeah, you have. That I'm all right.

Yeah, you're all right. Yes, baby. Is there something you would go back and say yes to? That's a good question. That I could think of? No. Really? No, no. You've said yes to everything you wanted to say yes to. I wanted to say yes to. I love that. Because everything that I say yes to made me feel good, and it was age-appropriate yeses. Yes. Is there something you're looking forward to? More life.

Yeah, I was going to say graduating to 81, perhaps? Graduating. Yeah, my graduation, 81. Your graduation in May, because you're a Gemini, correct? Uh-huh, May 24th. Nice. Is there something that you would like to tell me about aging, Patty? Just don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid of turning whatever you're going to turn to be older. Some people live to be nervous about turning certain ages, right?

Don't. Just accept it. You made it. So don't be afraid of life. Yeah, and that seems like a really lived thing for you, Patty. I mean, you are actually scared to turn certain ages, and you aren't anymore. It's good advice. Is there something you wish that you'd spent less time on, Patty? No. See, I think you've had the perfect life. I can't say that I've had the perfect life, Julia. I can say that I've had a nice life.

And a life that I don't regret. But I call that a perfect life, a nice life that you don't regret. You know, not a lot of people can say that, Patty LaBelle. I know it. A lot of people are. And you can say it. Yeah, I can say it and mean it. Yeah.

Oh, my God. It's been such a delight to talk with you. You are just the most wonderful human being. I had a feeling that it would be like this with you and I. And I'm so pleased to have spoken with you. And thank you so much, honey. Oh, wow. Wow. What a life Patti LaBelle has lived. Okay, let's get my mom on the Zoom. Can't wait to talk to her about this conversation. Hi, Mommy.

I have to turn your audio on. Yeah. What's the problem? I've got Garrison Keillor on and I can't turn him off. On your phone? I think I know where it's coming from. Okay, so it's just playing. You don't know why. Do you want to just turn your phone off? Yeah. Garrison Keillor once again ruining the podcast. Okay, all gone. Nice. I love it. Hi, Mommy. Hi, hi.

So guess what? Today we talked to Patti LaBelle. Yes. The wonderful Patti LaBelle. And remember, she had that big hit back in 1974. It was called Lady Marmalade, but the tune was, Vous les vous couchez avec moi ce soir. Do you remember that? Oh, I do remember that. Yes, yes, yes. And I used to sing that all the time because it was so naughty, of course. And I thought I was like,

pushing the edge of the envelope. You definitely were. I mean, my God, you were. Yeah, I was. Will you sleep with me tonight? I mean, that was very dirty. Were there any dirty songs like, well, not like that, but what was considered dirty when you were growing up?

We used to do the exercises, you know. We'd go, we must, we must, we must increase our bust. The boys, the boys, the boys depend on us. I don't think that was a top 40 hit. No, no, it didn't make it, but it was a good hometown thing. It was good in Columbus, Ohio. It made all the charts.

I don't think there were any. It was such a quiet generation. You know, I can't think of a single song that would bring a blush to anybody's cheek.

When I was in junior high, it was, we must, we must, we must increase our bust. The bigger, the better, the tighter, the sweater, the boys depend on us. That's another one. Yes, that got very complicated once it got eased.

Well, it's such an unfortunate rhyme on every level. Exactly, exactly. I hope we haven't brought it back into popularity by mentioning it on the show. I'm so sorry about that. I know, I am too. I have huge regrets. But back to Patti LaBelle. Yes. She just turned 80 this past year and...

Her son, through her surprise party with everybody she's ever worked with in her entire life, showed up to this party in New York. And it was a very, very big deal. But it reminds me of when...

Mommy, remember when I had the surprise party and you told me about it? Do you remember? I know. That made me feel so bad. I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't bring it up to make you feel bad. It's fine. It's a great family lore story. I know. How did I tell it? Did it just slip out or did I... Yeah, it just slipped out, Mom. You said... I think what was going to happen was...

Brad was going to take me away somewhere, if I'm remembering this correctly. And you and Daddy had come to take care of the kids while we were going to go somewhere. And we were about to leave, and you said something like, well, see you in Santa Barbara later. Like that. Yeah.

Because that's where the surprise party was. I know. Oh, dear. Did you pretend it was a surprise or did you just say I had ruined the whole thing or how did you work that out? I can't remember. Well, I mean, I knew something was going to happen, but I didn't know what the extent of it was. And you didn't know it would be there and everything. Yeah, exactly. I didn't know what it was going to...

unfold to be. So I was obviously surprised by that. And it was such a joyful occasion. It didn't really matter at all. And this all reminds me very much of Patti LaBelle, in fact, because she's somebody who's gone through a lot, but she's really, really happy in her life. She's very at ease with who she is. So I think she was definitely happy to be celebrated, as she should be.

That thing of having a party and celebrating your life and you get to sort of sit back and look at it and assuming you're happy or relatively, not even just happy happy, just reasonably happy with where you are. That's a lot to be celebrated, you know? Of course it is. It is for sure. And then to be singing, I mean, how wonderful, wonderful that she is still singing. I know. It was an incredible honor to be able to talk to her, no doubt.

All right, mommy. Well, so long. Oh, there's the front door. I have to go, mommy. I've got the gate guys here to fix the gate. Oh, okay. Good, good, good. Well, I love you and I'll see you soon. Okay. I love you. Love you. Thank you for talking with us. So happy to be here. Bye, mommy. Love you. Bye. Bye. Bye.

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button.

Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me Podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zahra Williams, Alex McCohen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer.

Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive Producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me,

The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber. And our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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