Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Isabella Rossellini
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Well, hello there. It's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I'm so happy to be back with Season 3 of Wiser Than Me. And to celebrate that, I am so excited to share that we have partnered with Lingua Franca, a New York City-based luxury and sustainable clothing brand, to offer our listeners Wiser Than Me-specific hand-embroidered sweaters, sweatshirts, and more.

I've gotten to hand-select each of the items in this curated collection and have had so much fun with it along the way, adding a bunch of sayings from our podcast to the items. It all combines Lingua Franca's chic yet thoughtful designs with our mission to celebrate the wisdom of older women. So check out our collection by heading over to wiserthanmeshop.com and clicking on the Lingua Franca collection. Lemonada.

Hello there, I'm Oja Lopez, a producer on Wiser Than Me.

The Oscars are coming up on Sunday, and as you may know, Isabella Rossellini is nominated for Best Supporting Actress for her role as Sister Agnes in Conclave. So we're celebrating by revisiting her incredible chat with Julia. They cover her life running a farm called Mama Farm, why she proudly calls herself ancient, and her shifting perspectives on love in older age. Plus, they dive into the fascinating concept known as cryptic female choices. Enjoy.

I'm sure I've mentioned here on Wiser Than Me that I have a dog named George, whom I love with all my heart. He is perfect. Well, he's got inflammatory bowel disease and he is allergic to everything. And he barks way too much when somebody comes to the door. He barks so much actually that it makes my Apple Watch give me a decibel alert thing.

But still, he is perfect. And coming from me, that's saying something. Because you know what? I don't have an ideal history with dogs at all. First, our childhood dog, Pippi, a miniature dachshund. Pippi was run over by a Volkswagen bug. And I know that's kind of funny now, but believe me, at the time, it was a complete horror show. And then there's Jack.

So Jack was a rescue Cavalier King Charles Spaniel that my first husband brought home unannounced one day when I was eight months pregnant, juggling a four-year-old, working 1,000 hours a day on Seinfeld, and let's say unprepared for the rigors of dog ownership.

Yeah, I mean, my first husband was a nice man, but he brought Jack home with no crate, no food, no dog dishes, and no plan.

And the first thing that Jack did was escape from the house and run as fast as he fucking could east, like perhaps towards Mecca or Jerusalem. I have no idea. But Lord Almighty, did he take off. He was so fast that my husband got on his bike and I got in a car and frantically chased after him until we finally caught him in the middle of traffic on Sunset Boulevard.

Okay, so at this point, you can imagine, I wasn't exactly thrilled with this first husband of mine, who I should mention is Brad Hall, to whom I am surprisingly still married. So the next day, Brad thought it would be a very good idea to drive Jack the dog an hour and a half up a super curvy road to a little beach house where we were staying.

And poor little Jack got very carsick. And then when he arrived, he proceeded to have projectile diarrhea all over the place. And I screamed so loud that Brad, in a panic, picked the poor dog up underneath his belly and tried to run him outside. And as he ran, the diarrhea sprayed like machine gun fire across all the walls of the beach cottage. And I really actually mean all.

all the walls. And if I recall correctly, they also had sisal carpeting. So I'm just put that in your mind. Okay. Diarrhea, sisal carpeting. Yeah. It will not come as a surprise that Brad left within the hour to take the dog back to the shelter where he waited until little Jack was happily readopted by a family that was much more prepared to care for this poor creature who I fear that we had probably traumatized completely and thoroughly.

So many years later, I was convinced to get another dog, a black Labradoodle we adopted from Australia, since you couldn't get Labradoodles in California yet. And Brad did his research and figured out how to bring the dog over.

which was very good, and it was all very organized. And also, I should say, in my dad's family, there's this tradition of naming female dogs after flowers. And since our son Henry was a giant fan of the Powerpuff Girls, the perfect intersection there was Buttercup. And that's what we named her. And this is a dog that transformed me.

I mean, I was, I still am very much a cat person, but now I'm a dog person too. Buttercup was utterly sublime, and for the next 15 years of her tender little doggy life,

I learned through her what it is to be truly devoted to a dog. I mean, of course, there are lots of reasons to love them. The unconditional love, the companionship, the connection. Plus, guess what? There's a science behind it. This is going to sound bullshitty, folks, but it's true. When people spend time with dogs, and especially when we look into a dog's eyes or cuddle with a dog or whatever, our oxytocin levels rise. We looked it up.

And in humans, it plays a really important role in social bonding and in love and reproduction and childbirth and caring for children after you give birth to them. And here's the completely outrageous part of all of this. When we make eye contact with our dogs, their oxytocin levels go up too. Isn't that amazing? So this all leads me to my mother-in-law, who is 96 years old.

Talk about wiser than me. My God, she is one of the dearest, most selfless people I've ever known. She is the most selfless person I've ever known, actually.

She suffers now from serious frontal lobe dementia, but her personality, by the grace of God or whoever is in charge of the universe, is utterly unchanged. And if you met her, your oxytocin levels would skyrocket because she's just that kind of a person. So we often take our dog, George, over to her little cottage to visit, and she has no functional memory at all. So

Every time she meets our George, for her, it's like meeting a new dog. And each time we have to remind her that our dog, George, is named after her husband, whose name was George. And she laughs and she throws her head back. She thinks that is just so hilarious. And then she looks George straight in the eye and she ruffles his fur. And she says in her inimitable way, she goes, oh, the only dogs. And then George says,

And here's the amazing thing. He only does this with her, okay? He curls up right at her feet and sometimes even on her feet. And he doesn't move until we have to go. He just becomes kindness. And how can it be that this little domesticated wolf creature can know exactly what he needs to do to bring a tiny bit of joy to his dearest granny?

And isn't it so wonderful that there are sometimes unexpected places that love and warmth and joy can be found, even when times seem a little dark? You know, as for all of us these days, they often do. So when George lies down at Granny's feet, it just, it really makes me weep. And as Shakespeare said...

This is such a great line. Shakespeare says, how much better is it to weep at joy than to joy at weeping? So that's what I'm thinking about today. Sorry, I'm choked up. Animals, family, friends, warmth, and joy. Let's focus on that. And that makes talking today with the endlessly joyful Isabella Rossellini just about perfect.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. If legendary filmmaker Roberto Rossellini and iconic Oscar-winning actress Ingrid Bergman had a child together, you might guess the kid would turn out to be either a brilliant director, a phenomenal actor, or strikingly beautiful. Well, you'd be spot on because our guest today is all three of those things and more.

The strikingly beautiful part, her 14-year contract with Lancôme made her the highest paid model of her time. The phenomenal actress part, she starred in classic cult films like David Lynch's Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart, in Marcel Lachelle, and her latest, Conclave, in which she is just sensational. She also steers her own projects, like directing the incredible Green Porno series that became a viral hit—I love it—

Diving into the love lives of the animal kingdom, only Isabella could make snail sex both educational and utterly charming. She's truly one of a kind, constantly experimenting and pushing boundaries, and always with a fearless authenticity that, even though she's been doing it for decades, is exciting and surprising and even shocking. And I just love this. In her 50s...

As modeling work and acting roles disappeared, she went back to school to get her master's degree in animal behavior and conservation. At her graduation, she addressed her fellow students to say, I am here to tell you that if you ever encounter a dip in your life, pay no attention to the voice inside of you that judges you, that is negative, that fosters further anxiety. Just follow your curiosities. That's great advice.

And when Isabella Rossellini follows her curiosity, she goes big. Today, she owns and operates Mama Farm in Long Island with her two children. They have goats, ducks, turkeys, over 150 chickens, and a small flock of rare breeds of sheep named after iconic female artists like Garbo, Callow, and O'Keeffe.

Who does that? The woman is living life entirely on her own terms. But the real legacy she's building is through her work in sustainability, community, and art. I am so happy to speak today with a twin sister, mother, grandmother, creative force, and chicken lover who is absolutely wiser than me, the marvelous Isabella Rossellini. Welcome, Isabella. Wow, Julia, this introduction is so...

I'm moved. I'm about to cry. Oh, cry. Thank you. We cry on this show, so go right ahead and weep away is what I have to say. So are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Yes, 72. Not and a half, because when I was younger, I would say three and a half, four and a half. Now I took the half away, so it's 72, not yet a half.

But soon. And how old do you feel, Isabella? Well, you know, it's funny. I never... I mean, inside you don't change. I haven't changed since I was like...

Maybe a teenager. I mean, teenager years are a little bit of torment. Yes. But once you hit 20s, it doesn't change inside. The outside changes, but the inside stays the same. So what do you think? Do you think you feel like you're in your 20s then? Yes. I don't know. I never really think of age. You know, I know a lot of people talk about my age. I don't.

I lost my job for age. I got my job back for age. So my life is very based on age. But I never really think about it so much because I don't know what to do with it. I mean, it just happens. Yeah, exactly. Luckily. Yeah. I mean, the alternative is not what we want. Yeah, the alternative is not so good.

So what do you think is the best part about being your age, if you were to say? Well, you know, yesterday I saw an interview with Jodie Foster and she answered for me. I wish I could memorize what she said so I can repeat it exactly. Well, you can paraphrase. I'm curious. But I think that what happens is when you're young, you have so many things to prove that you're financially independent. Maybe there is, you know, you have to prove that professor, they gave you a

bad notice that you were intelligent, capable, then you have good mother, you raise your children, good wife. And then as you become older, that preoccupation lifts and you just say, well, I am who I am with the limitation. I am that intelligent, this beautiful, this fat, this old.

And you accept it. So there is a certain amount of serenity. And with that, a kind of a freedom, because you also say, wait a second, here's not much left. Let me do what I always wanted to do and I didn't do it for whatever reason. Like for me, it was going back to study. Yes. Because I...

First of all, there wasn't animal behavior. It was a new science, so the university didn't offer it when I was in my 20s. Is it called ethology? Is that how you pronounce it? Ethology, exactly. Ethology. It's called ethology, yes. And it wasn't offered at the time because it's relatively – there was biology, there was zoology, but not ethology. Yes. So that was one reason. And then –

Then I stopped modeling. I was working. So I thought, everybody's saying, ethology, what the hell is that? You're working with chimpanzee. There's no way you'll make a living, which is true. So, you know, modeling and all that seemed more concrete to me.

But then when you're old, you just say, well, I have my pension. You know what? I'm going to study ethology. There is a freedom that comes with it. Yeah, freedom and serenity. I love that. I love that. Yes. It's funny. It reminds me, completely off topic, but kind of related. Back in the days when I was doing Seinfeld, and there was something that Jerry Stiller, there was a line that he used to say. He used to scream, scream.

He used to scream, serenity now, when he was looking to be calm. He would scream, serenity now, which is not exactly, of course, what you're talking about, but it makes me laugh whenever I hear the word serenity, I think of it. So you have this farm, which is incredible, and you are a farmer and farmer.

As I mentioned, you have 150 chickens thereabouts and sheep and bees and the whole nine yards, kit and caboodle. What's your routine like on the farm? Can you describe it, Isabella? Well, you know, I also have employees because, of course, I somehow work as a model and as an actress came back. So I'm often traveling. I really more manage it. You know, the only thing I do because everybody's afraid is the bees, right?

And they don't need to be attended every day, but every week or every two weeks, which allows me to travel, be an actress, come home, attend the bees. Yes. But, you know, feeding the chickens. I mean, what I try to do, I manage it. And the principle is that I can do things that I can do. Yeah. Because if ever somebody's sick, I can do it.

I know how to feed them, how to clean the coop, how to water it, how to give a certain medicine if it is not too sophisticated and we need to call the vet. So I developed the farm with things that I could do directly. I see. But you know what's happening? What? I'm getting old. And some of the things that I decided 10 years ago, I can't do anymore. Like what? Like what?

Like cleaning the coop because there is a lot of shoveling and my back hurts. Oh, that's hard on your back, right. But at least I know how to do it and what it takes. And I think that makes you a good manager because you have a sense of what it takes. Because, you know, farming was so far from the way I grew up. Although it was not so far as it is in America because in Italy, where I grew up,

Farm is around, and the culinary tradition in Italy is so present that farmer's market, we only ate food from the farmer's market. We never went to the supermarket. We went to the supermarket if there was, I don't know, a pandemic, a war. I mean, that was the emergency. You never buy frozen food. It was everyday fresh fruit from the market. And so we had a relationship with farmers. We went to see their farms. So that was

It was a kind of different way of eating than here in America. Wait, can you just back up for a second? Because I need to hear about bees. I'm so curious. I'm tempted to have bees. Oh, I'm going to tell you the craziest thing about bees. What? Male bees, they have a grandfather but not a father. How do you like that?

I like it, and I'm curious. Continue, please. So their genetic is different than us. So in the bees, there is only one female, the queen, that reproduces. So she's born. She flies off as a virgin in a natural flight.

She gets mated with several males. She goes back and she starts a hive. And she has a spermateca, like we have a discoteca or a bilbioteca, as we say in Italian. A teca is a... She has a spermateca. She collects the sperm. So she flies off in this nocturnal flight for one day. She collects all the sperm that she will use throughout her life. Her life is generally about three years. And she would use the sperm to create...

daughters, and no sperms to create her sons, the drones.

But wait, explain to me grandfather and not... So the drone has a grandfather because the queen has had a mother and a father. Yes. Because you have a mother and a father to be a female. Yes. So the newly born son called the drone has a grandfather, but doesn't have a father. Oh, I understand. Because the queen doesn't use sperm to create the males. It's not

A clone, because it's a different sex. So it's a different genetics. And to me, dealing with those bees is like going to Mars, to another planet. They're nuts. Tell. So like when you go in there and you're doing your beekeeping work, what does that look like?

So it depends on the season. So you want to make sure that, first of all, you want to make sure that the queen is laying eggs. And the queen lays about 1,500 eggs per day. Good God. The hive is, you know, 40, 50, 60,000 bees. So you want to make sure that there is eggs and that the queen is alive and well.

You also check for disease. Varroa mites is a mite that affects a lot of the bees. And so you have to put medicines and to try to treat them for it. There is beetles that might attack. Once I found a mouse inside the hive, they killed it.

All the bees jumped on it and they stung it and it was dead, all swollen, dead from the sting. So they defend themselves, but you have to check. And then it depends on the season. You know, like now it's starting to be, there is not much food for them. They've made the honey that it is the food that they will eat during the winter. But I stole it.

I took it. I just left some, but I have, I'm feeding them in the winter, throughout the winter. I give them two types of food. One is a liquid food when it's not too cold, and then I switch to solid food, a

kind of a sugary patty. And then I stop around March when I see them coming and bringing pollen because I know that now they can feed. And then I don't feed them anymore because the honey wouldn't be very good if I give them this artificial, you know, this. Oh, I see. You want the flowers. You want the...

Yeah, so you're supplementing their diet since you're taking away some of their own food source. I understand completely. Yeah, that's fascinating. That is absolutely fascinating. Have you been ever... Sorry to keep asking these questions, but I'm so interested. Oh, I was stung so many times. Once I had to do a mammogram and I...

I tended my bees in the morning, and they attacked my hand. And I had a hand that was enormous. And I went for a mammogram, and the doctor kept saying, no, no, no, what's wrong with your hand? No, nothing, nothing, doctor. I have bees. They just stung it. Don't worry. I'm here for a mammogram. My mom died of breast cancer. Please do the mammogram. No, no, no. We have to do an x-ray on your hand. No, doctor, please. It's just my bees. Oh, my God. So most of the animals on your farm are...

For the most part, female. Is that correct? Yes, they're female. Well, naturally, 90% of the bees population are female. Yeah, but what about the animals? Yeah, the chickens. So the chickens, they lay eggs. So I have a hard time killing animals. I'm not a vegetarian. I'm just a hypocrite because I just eat the food, but I cannot eat...

The animal that I've raised myself. I see. And I have a really hard time killing them. I tried to learn how to do it because I thought it was part of my duty, but it's just horrible. So another way of managing the farm is that we don't kill any animals. Plus, there is no good, how you call it, harvester.

Now, you speak languages, and so sometimes word comes in a different language. Abattoir, French. Matatorio, Italian. Slaughterhouse, English. Finally, it came. There is no good slaughterhouse in Long Island. And one of the stressiest moments for the animal is to be transported there.

to the slaughterhouse. So the slaughterhouse can be humane or not. I mean, they say. I mean, I don't know. But I'm sure there is various degree. But the transportation, it's very stressful. So I decided not to...

have any meat. So we can have eggs. Therefore, I need only female because the chicken, they lay eggs. They don't need a rooster. The eggs is like our menstruation, but only they do it every day. Right. So they have an egg every day. You don't need a rooster for having eggs. I have sheep and goats. At the beginning, I had only female. Males sometimes fight, but now I have two males that are castrated and they are angels. Right.

Did you have to have them castrated or they came that way? They came that way. I see. That's the way they got entrance. My neighbor had them, and so I met them when they were little lambs just born, and she was going to eat them. And I said, well, if you don't eat them, I like to have them because I just saw them, and she castrated them for me. Yeah.

That is hilarious. You know, your son described you as going from the big city life to a really different lifestyle at the farm. It's almost as if she becomes a different person. So I want to know about that. I want to know what's the difference between big city Isabella and farm Isabella. How would you describe it?

Well, you know, the way of dressing changes completely. You know, in the city, you have to dress up a bit. You have to be clean. In the country, you know, shoes are different. Clothes are, you know, old. Sometimes I might have a beautiful designer jacket, but old. So it has been promoted to being a farm jacket. But I mean, is it a different mental state for you?

A little bit, a little bit, but I'm a lot in the country. So either work, I'm very seldom in the city.

First of all, if you're from New York, you were born in New York. I was born in New York, yeah. It's difficult to leave New York because New York makes you believe that it's the center of the world. And if you leave it, you're going to become peripheral to culture or peripheral. So at the beginning, I was going to the city much more often, going to see the shows. And little by little, I'm doing this less.

So I go to the city and now I've become like a farmer. I say, so much traffic. It smells so bad. So much noise. I complain. Yeah.

You've become that person. Yes, I've become that person. But all of your family has moved, I believe. Yes. So you've got everybody, your daughter, your son on the farm. And my three grandchildren. I have three grandchildren. Three grandchildren. How old are they? The smallest one is seven months. And then there is a three-year-old and a seven-year-old. Oh, how divine. It seems very sort of matriarchal, is it?

It is matriarchal. It's funny because people, we have this bed and breakfast. I'm talking to you from this bed and breakfast. Yes. And often when guests come, they say there is a very strong female energy. And strangely enough, you know, we're booked for conferences or seminar. And often there are things related to women, whether it's menopause or lactation, birth, somehow. Yeah.

That's how we got the name Mama Farm. From the beginning, this land had a female energy. Not only it was me,

And my daughter is very involved in creating all this program. So it was Mama's Farm because it was Mama's Farm. Yes. But also the chickens were all female because we don't need a rooster. We just selected for the eggs. So female, bees, 90% of the bees female. And then so many mothers came with their children to show them, oh, this is the season of the carrots. This is the season of spinach. Look at the flowers. And so...

And so it became naturally mama-formed and still has a very feminine energy. They call it Mother Nature. You say Mother Nature, I say feminine instinct. Yeah, feminine instinct, yeah. Right? Well, I think so. You know, I was wondering, I forgot if I read it.

There's a new anthropology book. Anthropology is the study of men. They're emphasizing the women role. For example...

They say, you know, when our ancestor took the vertical position, unfortunately, it became very, very painful to give birth because our hips had to be smaller and the birth canal became more difficult. Narrow. Narrow. So it was difficult to have a baby come out. And that's why it's so painful. Right.

But these new women anthropologists said, yes, but that means that that could have evolved only if there was collaboration, altruism, teamwork, because a woman needs another woman to help her deliver the baby. Mm-hmm.

pull it out of her, take care of the baby while she's recovering. There was already an enormous mortality and they would have all died if there wasn't collaboration and altruism. Oh, fascinating. It's fascinating, isn't it? Yes, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. And this is how the new study of

women point of view, that they don't look at anthropology like competition and who is strongest. And maybe it was, of course, our culture skews our studies, skews our questions. So now there are these women asking this question. One of the series that I've done as a director, you know, I make these short, funny films. Yes, which I love, by the way, love.

Thank you. So all my films are called green porno, but actually they are called other things. But the first title was green porno. It was so powerful that no matter what I do, they say she does green porno. Yes. So one of the green porno series was called Mamas, and it was about maternal instinct. And it was a series of fantastic ethologists, biologists, women that looked into maternal instinct.

We all think we know what it is, but then when you really look into it, it has never been studied from a scientist's point of view. Oh, my God. Right. And so they've done all these studies to see, is it true that mothers are ready to die for their children? And the answer is more complicated. Some mothers eat the babies. Some babies eat the mothers. Anything goes. Right.

That's so funny. That's an amazing thing to consider studying a maternal instinct. God, I have to think about that. There is an incredible movement of women in science that are asking different questions that were never asked before. But I think this idea that women mammals, not female, but male,

Because they are sometimes male that take care of, you know, the ostrich is the male that takes care of the baby. The seahorse is the father that become pregnant. Yes. But I think in mammals, because we have to breastfeed our babies, we also look at them. We have an opportunity to observe them closely than the father. Yes. And we also become pregnant.

to be more attentive to little indication, to little things that are not verbal. And then I think we are very good at farming or animal behavioral studies. That makes so much sense. Don't go anywhere. My conversation with Isabella Rossellini continues after this quick break. ♪

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I love this story from your memoir. You had a childhood game you used to play with your mom. You would ask each other which animal you would want to be, and your mother said she'd like to be a horse.

And you said, I'm afraid I would just be a sheep. I belong so strongly to a herd. Would you still say that same answer, Isabella? Yes, I do. I think so. You know, I think that I have a sense of community. I mean, my farm is very central to our community. My children and my grandchildren live around us. My daughter went to – she studied –

at the London School of Economics. So she went to London to visit some friends. And when she said, you know, my mom has dinner with us every night and she lives in a house next to us, they said, is it a problem? Because I think in the Anglo-Saxon world it's seen as ethnic or something. But...

Yes, I am a sheep. You're a sheep. Do you see yourself aging in place on your farm and being here? How divine. Yes, I speak to so many friends who say, you know, I'm concerned about what am I going to do when I'm older?

Who's going to take care of me? How am I going to make it? And yes, I have no problem. I mean, wheelchair just wheel me in front of a coop and take me to the pasture of the sheep. I think it's going to be easy to take care of me when I'm Gaga. That's very nice. You're very lucky. So you had a great dad, Roberto Rossellini. He was obviously a legendary film star.

Director, but you described him as being a seahorse. You said that if he could have given birth to you, he would have. He would always say to me, I'm so jealous that women can get pregnant. I want to breastfeed you. Why can't I do it? I remember once he was doing an interview and he asked me to sit and wait until the interview was over in a hotel lobby. And the journalist asked him, what kind of a father are you? And he said, I'm a Jewish mother.

That's adorable. And he was a Jewish mother, the stereotype of a Jewish mother. Yes, he would have liked very much to be pregnant and give birth and breastfeed us. And so was he like your primary source? Do you think of emotional support when you were young? Both. My father and my mother. My father, when I became a teenager, became a very Italian father.

father, very jealous, very worried about my virginity and a boyfriend. You know, he went nuts. So when I was a teenager, I became closer to my mom. But when I was little, I think I hover more around my dad who loved animals, was very adventurous. I think I continued to live my life very closely to how my father lived life. It sounds like even though he was protective of you and maybe didn't

defensive view when you became a teenager, a young woman. It sounds like he was very supportive of you as a woman. Is that correct? I think so. I think, you know, I don't know. I lost my dad when I was 25 years old, but I think he would love my great porno and my work at the farm, but he would be uncomfortable with me as an actress. Oh, really? Yes. I think he was very worried that acting was...

You have to be chosen. You always have to be pleased. And therefore, you can be easily put in a role that it is not active but reactive. I see. And I think that's what he feared. Probably he envisioned you having more control over your life, perhaps? Exactly. Yes. And I did. I did have control over my life. But I think when I became an actress after he died...

Because I didn't want to be yelled at. Well, it's funny you say that because I see that you said that after the death of your dad, you said if I were to divide my life into before Christ and after Christ, it would be June 3rd, 1977 when he passed away. And I lost my dad a long time ago.

Yeah, I lost him eight years ago. It's interesting how the ground shifts, doesn't it, when you lose a parent? Incredible, incredible. Can you talk about that shift and how you recover from it?

Exactly. It's the ground shift or the ground collapsed. I felt that when I had my parents, that there was an anchor, that there was a continuity in the past and I can just be in the future. And all of a sudden, when I didn't have them and they died four years apart, there was this void in my back, right?

And I felt very precarious, very... Untethered, perhaps. Yes, yes. I got scared to live life without them. I was living life. I mean, I was 25. My mother died when I was 30. But still, I think not having them left a very big void. Also, I mean, I wonder...

You know, my father and mother were exceptional people. So I'm sure that everybody misses their parents. But sometimes I wonder if I have missed them more also because they were exceptional human beings, right?

Yeah, and also people knew them. They're known. So that adds another layer to this that maybe is complicated or maybe it's comforting. Maybe a layer to remember because I think of them every day. And I wonder if I think of them every day because of my love to my parents or because I'm reminded. Because, you know, when I give an interview, they ask me about my parents or I ran into people, so I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaking of fame, you said when you were little, you didn't really understand your mom's fame. And that's such an interesting idea to consider because when my kids were little and I was having some fame, I know they didn't understand it when people would come over and say they needed a

An autograph or something. It was off-putting. It was an intrusion. So I remember once my son, we were at the beach. And my son was running up and down the beach and would go up to people and say, he said, Bella Rossellini is my mom. And, you know, at the time I was a little bit... So I got so embarrassed. I called him aside. I said, Roberto, why did you say that? He said, I don't know. They seem to like it. So now people smile. Oh, really? Yeah.

That's hilarious. When my son was really little, and at the time I was, because I was on Seinfeld and we were on a lot of magazine covers, et cetera, so he was really sort of used to seeing me on the front page of something. And we were walking by a bookstore. And the front window of the bookstore had a bunch of books all about Margaret Thatcher. There was some book that had just come out about her life, biography of, and it was her favorite.

face on the front. And he looked and he goes, look, mommy, that's you. Any woman on the cover of anything. Any woman was you because also you're an actress, so you can have a wig, you can change. My daughter, when she was also six or seven, maybe smaller, she went to, they were teaching her to remember her last name and her address just in case she got lost. She could tell a policeman, my name is Electra Wiedemann, this is my address. And the policeman goes,

So, they were teaching all the children, remember your last name, remember your address. And then they were asked, they were interrogating the children to see if they understood it. So, they went to my daughter and they said, okay, Elettra, her name is Elettra, Elettra, you are lost at the airport. What do you do? And she said, well, I'll sit under my mom's poster. Yeah.

And she said, what would that do? She said, haven't you noticed in the streets and the airport photos of mama and daddies everywhere? So if someone gets lost, you just sit there. She hadn't even understood what was my job. She thought it was photos of all the mommies and daddies. So you can get lost, you go underneath that poster. Yeah.

That is so dear. That is so adorable. Your mom wrote a bunch of diaries, did she not? Your mother had diaries? Yes, she wrote a diary when she was young. And then I think when she became very known in Hollywood, she stopped writing it because she was afraid that somebody might steal it and publish it. And so she stopped writing.

writing her diaries. But we do have her diaries from, you know, age 12, 14, when her father gave her a little book to keep a diary, all the way until she was maybe 36 or 37. Oh, wow. And so did you learn a lot about your mother reading these diaries? Did you? So I couldn't read them because she wrote them in Swedish and I couldn't read Swedish. But it was really interesting because in one

The first diary opens by saying, my dad gave me this diary and I'm really happy to keep a record of when I'll be an actress and I will become very known. That's the first thing she wrote. Wow.

Really? So I thought, this is extraordinary. It's astounding. All my mom's archive is at the Wesleyan University that has an incredible film archive. Yes, my son went there. Janine Basinger, the great Janine Basinger. Yes, Janine Basinger. It was his teacher.

The fantastic archivist and film preservation. Yes. So it's there. And so Janine had the diary translated, so we read the most interesting passages. But this was your opening. And then a friend of mine gave me the answer. He said, oh, I think a lot of diaries start like this. Just a mother, it happened. But a lot of people's diaries. Oh, I see. I'm going to be famous. I'm going to make it.

That made sense. I thought, oh, my mom, look at this. Oh, I see. But it just so happens she did. She did, yeah. Yes, of course. So I know that I wanted to talk about a time of your life because I thought this would be interesting from sort of a –

Well, from a life experience point of view, 1982 to 83, a lot happened for you, if I'm getting this correctly. Your mother passed away. You got divorced. You got your first Vogue cover. And you had a daughter. Yes. Yeah, it's true. I've never thought about that. Yeah, that happened all in between 82 and 83. Big changes. So wait a minute. How did you...

Get through that period of time. Did you have someone? Who did you look to for guidance? Was it hard to have a baby, not having your mother around? Oh, so hard, yes. No, I didn't have it, of course. Yes, it was hard. And that's why I tried to be not only very present when my children had their baby. In March, I was offered to do a series, but that's where my third grandson was born. And I...

I said, no. My accountant was berserk. She said, you're going to make so much money. I said, yes, but more important to be here for my son. But you can be a grandmother later on. I said, no. The grandmother is here the first day the baby's born, the first child. The first child is the hardest, wasn't it, for you too? It's such a surprise. It's such a shock. It's a shock to have a person who you're responsible for and who takes precedence over you.

Exactly. There's an ego shift that is, shall we say, disarming, which is an understatement. And then everything you do, it becomes so complicated. You know, you say, oh, I forgot to buy the meal. Let me go out. Ah, no, you can't go out. The baby's sleeping. There's no babysitter. You cannot leave the baby alone at home. Everything becomes so difficult. So difficult. It's a new way to frame your entire life.

It's funny that you said that about your accountant and getting a job because I remember I was offered a job during the summer, and this is when I was going to be taking – I only had one child at the time, but they had this thing. When they would start nursery school, they called it separation. So you would bring your kid to nursery school, and then you would be there for the first two weeks, and so he becomes –

And then you slowly move out of nursery school. But I knew that if I took this job, I would miss that. I wouldn't be able to do it. And so I didn't take the job. And I remember my agent said to me, this is the worst decision of your career. Yes. Yeah, well, I was told the same many times.

But it is the best, you know, because there are other jobs that come and there is nothing. There is a quality of life. And the quality of life comes not only with the jobs, comes also with the family and the relationships. Yeah. I also think, I don't know if you agree with me, I also think that all of women of all

I mean, I'm older than you, and I'm wiser. When you say wiser than me, I say, oh my goodness, now why am I going to say that he's wise? Now you own it. You own it, Isabella. But I think that, you know, my generation, your generation, younger generation, we had career. We moved into, became producers, became director, you know, field that men dominated. Yeah.

But the job is still organized according to this division where there is always a woman at home taking care of the family. Oh, yes. That is the next step, I think, that the feminine world has to enter into the world of jobs, films, everything. I mean, just look at the tax system.

I can take as a tax break, if I go to lunch with you to discuss this interview, we can make it into a… Yes, which we must. I insist we do. But it's a tax deduction. You can take it off your taxes. Yes. But if I have a babysitter, I can't take her off. Oh, fascinating. It continues to be a problem that has to be resolved somehow.

Well, we need more women in government. Let's start with that. You know, talking about women in government, I think that's how I got my job back at Lancome. Oh, yes. Talk about that. Please tell the story of the first stint at Lancome and then the second and that evolution because it's an amazing story. So I got this beautiful contract with this extraordinary cosmetic line, Lancome. Yes. And I worked for it for 14 years until

As the only model and extremely successful. And in the midst of this enormous success, I got news that my contract was not going to be renewed. And I was very surprised. But now, wait a minute. How many years were you under contract for Lancome at that time? 14. 14 years. 14.

And then I turned 40 or 41, and I would start rumors that I wouldn't, you know, I should be, I will not renew my contract. So I asked to talk to the top guy at the time. Yes. And he explained to me, gave me a rationale. He said, women dream to remain young. Advertisement is about to dream. You are going to be 42 soon. And at 42, you cannot dream.

represent that dream. That's why we have to find somebody younger. We're very grateful for your work. We're very gracious, but you're not going to work with us anymore.

I asked, I mean, they had all the marketing tools, you know. So when I asked my friends, do you like to stay young? Nobody said yes. Nobody said no. I want to be elegant. I want to be playful. I want to be sophisticated. I don't want to stay young. But some said, oh, yeah, it'd be nice to stay for 23 forever. But it was really a minority. But I didn't have the instrument they had. So 23 years go by and I receive a call saying,

from a woman saying, I would like to hire you back. And I said, what about the dream of remaining young forever because I'm 23 years older? Can I come to Paris? Can you pay my airplane to come to Paris? Because I want to meet with you because I don't understand it.

So I arrived. I was very anxious. I arrived at the restaurant before everybody else. And then I was waiting and I see a motorcycle. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Why were you anxious? I'm curious about that. I was so lost, you know, 23 years of and now they want me back. I didn't understand. I said, if you want somebody older because you want to fight ages, get Helen Mirren.

get Meryl Streep. If you get me back, that story that was controversial, because when they let me go, that was controversy. Some women got very offended. It's going to come back. I don't know how to protect you from this story. What am I going to say to the press? Yes, yes, yes. No, we insist it should be you. Okay. So I said, well, I want to come and really flush it out, understand it. And when I arrived at the restaurant earlier, I was sitting there waiting and I see a motorcycle.

And a woman dressed in black leather coming out of the motorcycle, taking the cask off, blonde hair flowing like Brigitte Bardot. She came and she said, hello, my name is Françoise Liman. I'm the new CEO of Lancome. I said, said no more. And now I understand you are a woman. And she said, yes, my name.

intent is to be more inclusive, to define beauty not as a certain age, a certain race, a certain weight, but trying to really give instrument to everybody to embellish, to play, to be creative. And that's how I define beauty. And so I got back. Wow. And I've been now with them for 10 years. Wow.

Oh, my God. Isn't that amazing? It's an amazing story. But I think that the sensibility that she had is that she understood that you can reach out to women that sometimes feel discarded, feel that I have no voice. Because we all want to be elegant. We all want to be creative. Of course. I'm changing my makeup based on that principle. Okay. Explain that.

You know what? I've noticed that I use my makeup as hiding my age. I would put things under my bags, under my eyes, and I'll put a little bit of rouge on my cheek. And then I said, wait a second, I don't represent that. And I saw, incredibly enough...

At Lancôme, there is a lovely man who uses makeup, but he doesn't use it to look younger. He doesn't use it to look like a woman. He uses it as a decoration. He uses it as a creative expression. And I said, I'm going to do your makeup. Tell me what you're using. And now I am putting a...

a little orange under my eyebrows. I always used very little makeup all my life. I mean, sometimes I use a lot of makeup because I'm an actress or a model. Yeah. But in my real life, I use little makeup. But now I'm using it as a touch of color. Uh,

not as trying to be younger or trying to hide something that I think is wrong, like a pimple. Okay, but wait a minute. Explain. So I just want to understand the, a little bit of orange sort of on your eyelid, underneath your eyebrow? Yes, right under the eyebrow. But what does that orange do? I don't understand that because I'm going to try this as soon as we, as soon as this podcast is over, I'm going to the bathroom to do this. So do you know that

Generally, you put an eyeliner and then you put some color in your eyelid. And then right underneath the bone, you put a little darker, so a little shade so your eyes seem more deep, like when you are young and you don't have the eyelid drooping. But if you do the makeup, just a color underneath your eyebrow...

It still looks like makeup and it looks interesting. It looks a little bit punk, a little bit rebel. And it is a little bit rebel, but a 72-year-old rebel, nothing to be afraid of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grandma rebellion. And of course lipstick, right? Lipstick. Lipstick I've always used because the makeup artists, all of them that I worked with the best, they all gave me the same answer. They said, choose a feature in your makeup.

that you like about yourself and make it bigger. And everybody said that I had good lips, so I made just red lipstick. Done. Done. Okay, I love it. So we're getting tidbits. It's time for another break. There's much more wisdom from Isabella Rossellini when we return. ♪

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Were you aware of the power of your beauty when you were younger? No. And then you were not? No. First of all, I was chubby. Then I had scoliosis, which is, you know, they took me to the hospital. There was deformity department. Oh, no.

Wow. Wow. It was clear what I had. The scoliosis is a very common deformity of the spine, only that mine was very severe. So in my life, I had to have two major operations. I have 17 vertebras that are screwed together, basically. Do you have pain in your back? No.

I do. I do have pain in the back. I mean, I have strategies. I swim. I do exercise, massages. I have to have a regime, yes, to keep me from pain. But Isabella, once you got past that and you became a young woman and you were, of course, very beautiful, were you aware of the power of your beauty skills?

Then, and then can you talk about how, if you were aware of that power, how that power has evolved as you've gotten older?

There was an element of great surprise, you know. I always felt that my forte as a model was that I was a very good accomplice with photographers and they understood what they wanted. And it was almost like creating a character for films. In fact, I didn't want to act because my mom was so famous, Ingrid Bergman. And so I was intimidated. My father didn't want me to be an actress. So

When I became a model, it was great because it was something that I was – I didn't realize that it was something that I grew up with. I thought it was a complete different job. And then until Richard Avedon one day said to me, Isabella, the models are a little bit like silent movie star because I'm not photographing a beautiful nose, a beautiful mouth. I photograph emotion. You have to show me emotion and that's what I photograph. I see. And then that's why you should be an actress, he said. Right.

And, you know, as a model, you're always worried. You always think the thing would last a couple of years. And then what do you do next? And so I was thinking, what do I do next? And it was Avedon that encouraged me to be an actress. And I tried. He said, you just have to add words. So I added words with an accent. Yes. There was a problem. But now. No. It isn't a problem. I'm working with Pixar. I'm working. It's an asset. Now it's an asset. Yeah.

So, Isabella, moving on to another topic, there was this really incredible interview where you mentioned that there hasn't been a piece of art that accurately reflects your sexual life in your 60s. And I would love to talk about the relationship with your body as you age, you know, your relationship to intimacy and sex. So,

I don't have sexuality. You know, I haven't had a boyfriend in 25 years, but for a brief moment during COVID, how lucky I was. I didn't have a boyfriend for years. And then just before COVID, as we were on the lock,

I met a man who I liked a lot who then left after COVID. So the COVID lockdown for me was fantastic. It was a sexual dalliance of sorts. Exactly.

So how it happened, I had my children and I adopted my son as a single mom because I was getting older and I come from a family of a lot of brothers and sisters. So I wanted my daughter to have that. And I was getting old. I didn't have a man then or a man with whom I wanted to have children. And so I adopted my son Roberto.

And I still had boyfriend going out, but it was difficult, you know. And the day never ended. You know, it started at five in the morning to get the children ready to school and then dinner and then, you know, bath and reading the story. And then the boyfriend was another dinner, another. Then he wants to make love. The day never ended. So I was going to the therapist and I said, how do I handle this? And

You know, I get up at five. It's still one o'clock. I'm still doing something for somebody. And she said, but have you ever tried not to have a boyfriend? And I had not. I always had somebody, you know, like if it wasn't a boyfriend, still somebody who went out trying to figure out if he could become a boyfriend and all that. She said, try. And since, as you know, I am very adventurous. Yes. That's right. I'm going to try to be single for six months.

I love that that's an adventure. That's good. Yeah. It was, let me try. I never tried. It was fantastic. So it was fantastic. It was so serene. There was no up and down. You know, I slept. It was, I could take care of my children without worrying that... Somebody else needed attention. Somebody else needed attention or that there was tension among them because when he's not the father, they don't like it so much, the boyfriend. Mm-hmm.

So the six months became a year, two years, three years. And then I thought, well, you know, it happened. And I spoke to other friends. Oh, yes, I haven't been married in three years. Okay. So I never made the choice, but 25 years went by without me.

a boyfriend, but for that very brief COVID parenthesis, luckily. Otherwise, I would have been locked up by myself. But here's the thing. Are you missing that now? Do you want to have another boyfriend? Are you happy to be back to being single? I think because I have a big community, I...

I don't need a man. I mean, if I fall in love, yes. But otherwise, a lot of friends of mine say, oh, you know, come to dinner. I have somebody who can be a companion. But I don't need a companion. I have plenty of friends. I have grandchildren. I have my community here in living in the village.

It does help to be single. It helps to live in a farm because you're part of a community. In the city, it would be harder because going to parties without a husband or a companion is the worst.

I cannot enter a party by myself. I hate it to go to a party. What do you do? Do you take a friend with you? Well, but they don't want to come because most of the time it's boring or too much chit-chat or, you know, red carpet. So they are shoveled in the corner waiting for me. And so they don't want to come. None of my family wants to come. And then sometimes other friends don't want to come. And so I don't go to parties, but I never really liked them. So I don't miss them.

Sometimes I miss the companionship, you know, like, oh, let's go see this movie together, you know, coming out and discussing it. But it's not something so big, the missing, that would make me forced to get... That requires a change. Yeah. So let's talk about reinvention, actually, because, well, for example, your performance in Death Becomes Her, which was so wonderful, really so wonderful. And...

we're talking of course about eternal youth in that movie and in your memoir you wrote something so beautiful which was I may not like myself old but I like myself ancient and I

I think I know what that means to me, but what does that mean to you? Well, you know, I can give an example come to mind. I don't like, you know, my neck. You know, I'm just looking at my dog's neck, how much I like it. And I look at my neck and I don't like it. And I say, why do I like my dog's wrinkles and I don't like my wrinkles? But so getting old has this aspect, but aging.

I'm ancient, and I love it. I had a wet nurse. I was born in Italy after the war. There was no formula. My mom was...

38, I think, when she had me and my twin sister. So she didn't have enough milk for two. And I was raised by a wet nurse. So that's ancient. And I love things in me that are ancient, that I can connect to something that existed in the past, but long time ago.

And they don't exist anymore. Hey, let's talk about having a twin sister. I have sisters-in-law who are twins, although they're identical twins, and you are a fraternal twin. Do you feel like a psychic connection to your sister, to your twin sister?

No, we don't feel a psychic connection, but I'm definitely closer to her than my other seven brothers and sisters. Seven? Yes, we're seven big families. Some of them are half brothers and half sisters. Sure. But there is a bond. But I also fought with her the most, too. So it's the most bonded, but also the most fights. Do you get to see her a lot? Oh, a lot. Yes, yes. We see each other a lot. We almost speak on the phone every day.

Oh, gosh, that's so lovely to have that connection with someone, a sister, a sibling. Okay, Isabella, going back to animal behavior now, I can't remember exactly where I read this, but you were talking about something called cryptic female choice. And I am so dying to hear more about this. Can you tell us about that?

Right. Isn't that a fantastic name? Cryptic female choices, again, is the point of view maybe of the masculine point of view that looked at courtship. But this is a scientific term. It's a scientific term. Yes. They looked at courtship as a way, for example, I don't know, birds dancing until the female is ready. Succumbs. Succumbs, exactly. Look at the word you've used, succumb.

Because we are so used to thinking that it's the male that does something spectacular and the female gives in to it. Yes. Cryptic female choices instead is what the female might do to keep control and not succumbing to a male. For example, my chicken. You tell me if this isn't fantastic and I'm slightly envious of them.

If a rooster jumps on them and they don't want to be mated, they can spit the sperms out like we would spit our saliva. Isn't that great? It's phenomenal. Phenomenal.

Ducks, they have a vagina like a labyrinth. Crazy. This is already crazy. They have a vagina like a labyrinth that has many canals. One canal leads to the eggs. The others don't. So the penis penetrates the female duck. Cryptic female choices. She sends him to a dead end.

because she has several canals, so she doesn't care. She lets the duck she wants to be the father of the baby in the right canal that leads her to the eggs. Cryptic female choices. You don't give up power.

I mean, it is too good. It is too good. And those are all new studies that are coming to the surface. And a lot of them, a lot of the great questions are asked by female scientists. Cryptic female choices might want to be the title of a book you write. I think there's something to it that is so...

Spectacular. I mean, you could, yeah, I mean, chapter one could be choosing to be single as a cryptic female choice. Absolutely. Okay, so a couple of quick, short questions I ask at the end, I'm going to throw at you, Isabella. Is there something you're looking forward to? Yes. I mean, life, you know, life is so interesting. It's full of interesting things. Yeah.

I just signed up for a course in ornithology to learn more about birds. Oh, fantastic. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21? Yes, be a film director earlier.

Oh. When did you first become a film director? 55, 50, 60. Oh, I see. Yeah, I should have done it earlier. And my film about animals, you know, yeah, I think they're good. They're fun. Yeah. I should have done more of it. I should have cultivated that voice more. Well, you have kind of had it there still. Yes, you are. But sometimes you need a lot of time to...

Get to a certain point. So get to a certain point, yeah. Is there something you wish you'd spent less time on, Isabella, in your life? Yeah, that's a very good question. Maybe having boyfriends, frankly. Maybe I should have been single more frequently, here and there. Just be with the one I really loved. Okay. Is there something that you would like me to know about aging? Well...

I'm not worried about you. I have the feeling that I'm not worried about you. I say, you laugh because laughter, I mean, laughter helps a lot, isn't it? I'm not worried. I think he would find it very funny.

I found it very wonderful. People don't believe it, but it really is wonderful. Well, I mean, you know, I'm aging and I have found it to be wonderful thus far. Me too. That far is really wonderful. Yeah. The only thing that I'm a little worried is if I get sick.

With pain. Yes. I had pain with my back, severe pain occasionally. And that's very hard. That is hard. But short of pain, everything else. Sometimes I wondered if I could, I sometimes lost the ability to walk twice in my life. And I had to relearn and it was scary. But, you know, it was also interesting. Yeah.

I have to say. What was interesting about it? It was interesting, the contact with other people that live like that, discovering the solution, discovering a whole community. I think, you know, I volunteer for the Guide Dog Foundation, and mostly we raise dogs for people that can't see. And people say, how do you separate from the dog after you raise them? Right.

Because you're part of a community. And that community is so clever and so full of life and so challenged and yet so capable, so strong. They are an inspiration. So my dog is my connection to them. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Community, baby. It's community and...

Yes, community and laughter is a very good combination. Yeah, it really is. It really is. Well, thank you so much for taking time. What a delightful conversation. Yes. Now, are you going to talk to your mom? Yeah. What should I say to her? Well, say hi. Ask her if community and laughter has been her secret. Okay, I will. She's 90. 90. 90. Yeah, I'm going to ask her. Okay.

Yeah, I'm going to hang up with you and I'm going to call her on Zoom and hopefully she'll be able to turn the Zoom on and we'll be good to go. Oh, great. She has a problem with Zoom. I have a problem with Zoom too. Yeah, who doesn't? I know, who doesn't? But anyway, thank you so much. It's been an utter delight. I would like to come and stay at your bed and breakfast sometime. Come, anytime, anytime. Okay, I think I might.

And you can show me the bees and all of it. Yes, absolutely. Come anytime. Okay. Well, lots of love and many thanks. You're very generous. Thank you so much. Wow. Well, that was all just so mind blowing. I learned so much in this conversation with Isabella. I got to get my mom on the Zoom right away to tell her all about it.

Hi, Mommy. Oh, hi, love. So I just talked to Isabella Rossellini. And first of all, she knows the podcast. So she goes, are you going to call your mom now? And I said, yes. And she goes, I will tell her I said hi.

Isn't that fun? People seem to love the little stuff we say. Yes. Gosh, you're going to love listening to this episode. She's such a delightful human being and so giggly, and she's got a lot of joy in her life. We can't get too much of that. No, but she has a farm in Long Island. She has a bed and breakfast there. It would be fun to go there.

And she has a lot of animals. I mean, for real, that would be fun to do, to spend a day, a night there and look around the farm and figure things out. Oh, dear. I think I'm concocting an adventure, Mommy. I may have to take you away to go there. I will do that. Oh, my God. And then maybe we could tour the farm. And she has a farmer who does incredible things there. And she's got the sheep and the chickens. Oh, wait. So this is what I'm going to tell you. So

There's a scientific term, and it's called cryptic female choices. And it has to do with certain animals in the animal kingdom who, when they are mated with, have the ability to control certain aspects of mating. For example, if a chicken is mated by a rooster, right?

and doesn't like the rooster, the chicken's vagina can spat out the sperm. Wow. But is that a conscious thing or is that something that our body does? I sort of think it's so easy to personify the animals that they like. Yes. But there's a wonderful phrase in a Mary Oliver poem, you should love the soft animal of your body. And whatever happens here,

to open us up to be fertile, to be whatever. I just wonder whether or not that sort of happens with animals under certain circumstances. And they don't like think, oh, I like it. I don't like it. It's just something that happens to them, to their bodies to permit the opening. It's funny you say that Mary Oliver quote because she was talking about how she likes the soft wrinkles of her dog who's old, but she doesn't like her neck. Yeah.

And she aims to like her neck the way she likes her dog's wrinkles. It's sort of the same idea. Oh, how wonderful that she has found this. I know. She's had such a varied, interesting life, you know. So many things were, you know, were open to her to do. And I'm sure that in some ways, you know, she had such a youth of so much love.

attention for her looks and for being who she was, but the fact that she was able to take that when it was offered and be, I'm sure, so grateful for it, but then to find something that she could make be herself, something that she already loved, but that she could then create a body out of. That's fantastic. And by the way, this is not the only thing she does. She's also a director. She continues to act. She's in this movie that's

It's called Conclave. So she's doing a lot of things. But she wanted me to ask you if you agree with her, I think, which is the key, she thinks, to aging, I guess she might say happily or aging well, as simplistic as this sounds, is laughter and community. And I'm sure you agree with that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you've got both of those things going for you, Mommy, don't you?

I do. But community is, it comes and goes. You know, in other words, we all talk about community so that we have a group that we think about, but it has to be nurtured. Yes, it has to be nurtured. And there's laughter. But you also have to look for it sometimes because it's not right at your doorstep every morning. Would that be nice if it were? You just open the door and you go, ah, laughter.

Ah, look at the morning. That's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Okay. Okay, mommy. I think it's time for us to sign off. Okay. Well, sign off and be well. Love you, my mama. Love you, love you, love you. Okay. So I realized right after I had hung up here on the Zoom with my mom that I had missed an opportunity. So I got her back on the Zoom.

Hi, Mama. Oh, hi, love. The reason that I wanted to get you back on Zoom was because after we had our little conversation, I thought, oh, my God, I should have you read that Mary Oliver poem. I think that would be so nice for everybody to hear. Can you read it? I'd be happy to read it, yes, and especially a good poem for now. Yeah. Yeah.

It's especially a good poem for now. So why don't you go ahead and read it and we can all just relax and listen to that. Wild geese, you do not have to be good. You do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through the desert repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. Tell me about despair, yours and I will tell you mine.

Meanwhile, the world goes on. Meanwhile, the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain are moving across the landscapes, over the prairies and the deep trees, the mountains and the rivers. Meanwhile, the wild geese high in the clean blue air are heading home again. Whoever you are, no matter how lonely, the world offers itself to your imagination.

calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting over and over, announcing your place in the family of things. Wow, that's a beauty. Yeah, it makes me cry. I love it. I know, I love that poem too.

Okay, Mom, that was just a complete tonic to hear it read by you. The thing that just kills me is tell me about Despair, yours and mine. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good poem. It's good. It's a good one. It's a good one.

Okay. Well, love to everybody and keep heart. Yes. And have a little fun if you can. Yep. Love to you guys. Okay. Love you, mommy. Soft animal, my mommy. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Love you. Okay. Love you. Love you.

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button.

Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me Podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zahra Williams, Alex McCohen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer.

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