Episode 16: From Code to Canvas with Ajmal Afif Jamal, Lead Product Designer, Grab, Singapore
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core. Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year.

Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design. All right, good evening everyone. I am Dylan, I'm the founder of Curious Call and welcome to our monthly webinar, Working in UX Design.

And this month we have an ex-colleague of mine, Ajmal, who's here on our show. So whether you're listening to our podcast or watching our webinar, we welcome you very much to the show. And please allow me to give a brief introduction about Ajmal before we continue. So Ajmal is actually a Malaysian and he's a design...

executive living in Singapore. He's currently the lead product designer at Grab and he shares a vast work experience of more than eight years in the digital design industry as a product designer.

And he previously started his career as a digital marketer and front-end developer for different startups in Kuala Lumpur before he actually came to Singapore to pursue a career where I actually met him as a fellow colleague at Aviva, which is an insurance company. So Ashmo is really knowledgeable about code and he started as a front-end developer and designer and developer.

hunts the title of our talk, From Code to Canvas, where he gradually eyewitnesses sort of like transformation from code to design. And I think over the last couple of years at Grab, he has grown a lot as well. So I'm very eager to catch up with him this evening to learn a little bit more about his work at Grab, his working experience in Singapore so far as a Malaysian expatriate,

And also, you mentioned something about behavioral design. So I think that's a very interesting view that I think some of you might be keen to listen more about. So, Ajmal, thank you so much for joining us this evening. How's it going today? Hey, Dylan. Thank you for the very kind words and comprehensive introduction. You know, it's been a long day today. Just come back from work. But yeah, I'm excited to be here and honored to...

to join you well thank you so much for spending time to give back to the community and we have in our audience some of my students as well so some of them are based in singapore and we of course have our usual audience around the region so it's quite an interesting audience set up right here

And maybe let's just start off with the nature of your work. Since you were speaking about it, what are you busy with these days at Grab? Good question. So when I joined Grab, I joined a team. At that time, it was called Economics Team.

And they changed the name to Marketplace. But it's not like this, you know, carousel like Marketplace, right? It's just supply and demand, right? So Marketplace. And then in January 2020, I joined design system team. So what I'm busy with these days, first, I guess, dealing with design system, you know, products and processes. Those are the stuff.

I guess at my level as lead as well, doing what I have to do in my role, like interviewing, all this kind of stuff, help with the interview as a panel and stuff like that. Yeah. So it sounds like you have responsibilities to hire new people and it sounds like you're still busy working on design systems. Just for the benefit of those people who are not aware what a design system is, in your own words, how would you explain that to a layman? That's a very good question, Dylan. I guess these changes

every day depending on you know depending on what I eat I guess every day it depends today I would describe it as this three piece right the people processes and product right so if you choose let's say with product first so what is the product of design system you can say it's a documentation website it's a code libraries you know design UI kits and stuff like this right so something that

let's say a designer and engineer can consume, right? That's a product.

Then processes is like, let's say I want to add a new component or I have a question, how do I use these components? And you must have a process, right? Like do I message you at Slack or do I schedule a call, right? So you have to create those processes, right? Just generalizing here, right? And lastly is people, right? So it's all about people. So if you create a robust system but nobody use it, is it a good system, right? So you have to think about adoption, right? So when you think about adoption,

from my sort of like perspective is about campaigning, I call it, right. Or marketing. So you have to market your product, right. So that people are aware and people will use it and understand it and even collaborate, right. And contribute to it. Yeah. Well, thank you for explaining that. I mean, it's nice to see you working on it because I remember working on a similar project while we were working together, uh,

I still remember you explaining to me the BEM framework. I was like, oh, ArchMelt taught me this. This programming framework from being a developer. You want to help people understand that? I thought it was very useful because later, subsequently, when I started working, I was talking to the developer like, do you guys use BEM? Yeah, right.

I think we can skip those. So I guess, I don't know if it's like best practices, if that is the latest one. But yeah, so BEM, what does it stand for, Dylan? The BEM, it's block element and modifier. It was like sort of like a coding best practice or something like that.

CSS, yeah, CSS naming. Yeah. So that's, I mean, just in general, it's always good to have good code hygiene and things like that. So that's, that's something I learned from you. I remember that. Yeah. So I think another thing that you wanted to talk a little bit more about is behavioral design. I'm curious, like, how is that related to design system work that you're doing? Like all this behavioral design stuff?

oh good question you you throwing me all this heavy okay maybe maybe let's just start with like a very simple question like what is behavioral design right in your own words yeah right right i'm a bit hesitant so maybe i give you a big context right so i think i come from a place of privilege when i joined i think i mentioned earlier right i joined uh economics team

I mean, we function like an end-to-end department, right? Where we have PMs, we have designers, we have analytics and engine, everyone, right? And then in marketplace team or in economics team, we have a behavioral scientist when I joined, right? We hire like two or three behavioral scientists. So obviously when we do our features or product, we have their input and their sort of like strategy even, right? They come up with like...

behavioral economics actually, right? So because they are behavioral scientists, so it's more around behavioral economics. So I'm just there to learn and absorb, I would say, right? Compared to them, like some of them are like even have master, have PhD and all this kind of stuff. So I wouldn't call myself a behavioral scientist

designer, right? But what I get to, like I said, as a privilege, I get to work with them and see how, you know, with behavioral economics and design, how do we find a synergy, right? When I do, let's say, a workshop for ideation, right? So instead of like maybe the common ones, now I get another fresh perspective from behavioral economics, right? So you're looking at things like priming, nudging, you know, all this stuff.

choice architecture, you know, there's a lot of like depth and pillars, right? So, so depending on the project, I get to, uh, an intern for the behavioral scientist team, right? So I'm just there to learn from them. And after years and years of doing it now, I'm sort of like trying to build a self-serve tool internally within Grab, right? Where, yeah, I'm sort of like become the go-to person if you want to discuss or learn more about behavioral science, right? Um,

Wow. So am I right to say that after sort of observing how your behavioral scientists work at Grab, you've sort of

synthesize many of those learnings into like a tool that anyone in the company can use it and choose to apply it in their designs. Is that right? Yes, I would say we co-create and co-author the tools together. Right. So we get together, we also close outside work. So we just come up with the initiative.

it's almost like a bottom-up initiative so like because i think one thing that we realize well if that we have this passion and i have this concern or dimension if you want to call it that but not everyone might be interested in that let's say we're trying to do something

in the design process, let's say, right? But then, oh, not everyone thinks, oh, I should include, you know, this behavioural design or behavioural science perspective, right? And there are teams who are interested, but then there's only two of us. I cannot attend all the meetings, right? So being a lead, I guess,

one of the challenge i set myself is how do i scale myself right so one way is to create a tools where at least if it's like surface level they can use the tool but if they need more in-depth guidance or consultation then we can have a call or meetings yeah that's really smart i think this is the same problem with data right like helping people become more data aware and

the data scientists can be like everywhere so it's kind of like a system is needed or two is needed to help support that initial engagement or to help them to be a little bit more self-serve right in terms of learning it um

I want to maybe contextualize an example. I don't know if it's commercially sensitive to share, but maybe can you share with me an example of a nudge that Grab uses? Or what do you think is something that you can share as a behavioral design example? Right. So maybe I can reframe your question. So you're right. So maybe I can't really speak for... Maybe you can share Grab, but maybe you can share a behavioral design. Right, right. So...

some of the things that comes on top of mind that let's say maybe everyone here watch Netflix right so when you watch Netflix you notice there's this

Maybe it was not an intentional thing, but the moment we listen to that trigger, it almost put us in this relaxed mode. Oh, I'm watching this thing. So that is priming. And then things like, let's create some crazy example. Let's say today if I open Google Map and then I want to go somewhere.

concept of nudging is like, so let's say instead of I'm looking at this MRT, there's bus and stuff, right? So a digital nudge would be like something that maybe if today, if you see the Google map is very neutral, right? Like it's like showing you as a user what you choose. But maybe a good nudge, maybe if MRT is so busy, maybe it's best to actually consider a bus, right? So by showing those signal on the map,

Now we're talking about the overlap with design, right? You can signal with green color dot or gray color dot, right? So then this interface is telling me or signaling to me, if I go to the MRT, it'll be very busy, right? If I go to the bus, it's a bit more, you know, spacious and stuff like that. So then there's a good nudge, right? Then I will go to the bus instead of... So those are some of the...

made up on top of my head so maybe it's not a very good example um they are excellent i think it's all around us it's a matter of actually whether we notice it or not like an example would be as i remember like using confirmation bias or like instead of getting people to say yes to a new status subscription sometimes the company just like

selects yes for you. So it's actually a lot harder for you to say no because it's an extra step, right? And actually that... I like that you mentioned that, but then there's a borderline of dark pattern, right? Yeah, there's definitely dark patterns there. Yeah, so actually let's discuss this. So I think that's a good point, right? So I think at least in my work, part of the dimension that we try to cover is to have this thing called ethical audit as well as part of behavior. So

there's this spectrum of, like, I think a recent example of, like, let's say Robin Hood, I think, was, had this issue where, you know, this young kid, because there's no limit to gamification, right, and then all of a sudden this kid, um,

owe a lot of money and then he or she, I forgot, right, took their own life. So for the audience benefit, Robinhood is like a stock trading app which has gamification elements which means every single transaction or every single trade you do, they celebrate it with like confetti being thrown around. So it really makes you feel good as a user that, hey, you know, like you did like a really awesome job like investing and someone committed suicide because they're

the person thought he owed like a million dollars or something like several years ago so that's what Ajma was talking about over here for ethical design when you say ethical design audit like who does it like is it like a policing thing or is it like voluntary yeah so I think that's why I say I co-authorize so there's certain things where I'm hesitant right to call it behavior design because I think I

If I were to describe myself, there's another perspective where I call it macro and micro. At macro level, that's where the behavior scientist, let's say this audit, where it's going to audit a lot of features that we build. She decides because she has all the qualification and experience on deciding what goes into the audit. But I think my part is more around

Let's say when we try to ideate, you know, LinkedIn have this complete your profile thing, right? So that is usually when people think about that, they think about, oh, progress bar, that's it, right? Then we designer usually, or not usually, like sometimes depending on your exposure, right? Then you think, oh, I just have to apply the right hierarchy, right? Colors so that the progress bar looks, but I think

at micro level, if you understand game mechanic, you know, you can apply different from game mechanic to... So it goes back to the system, right? So do you want to reward good behavior or do you want to punish bad behavior, right? So then you start to look at choice architecture and then choose the right game mechanic and then that goes as an idea. So at micro level, I think for designer to have some exposure, it's very helpful because now

I would say your idea is more creative compared to a typical, you know, typical ones. Yeah. Just so I'm not sure if I'm guessing the definition over here is choice architecture like you're

designing the conditions for users to choose a certain option. Is that right? Correct. And isn't there like an ethical dilemma over that? Yes. That's why when you said just now, when you make the decision for the user, I think...

uber also has this issue last time when again if you try to gamify your app and then when let's say you're a driver and then you're tired right and then you've been driving for 12 hours and then oh just one more thing just one more thing if i do for the you know and then that will compromise your health and safety right so so so one of the um i guess generic rule is to to give a choice right

Ah, so it's like not to force that option, but actually to give it a choice, even though one choice is preferred over others. And of course, as designers, we can always highlight the choice that is more preferred. For example, like making the button green or orange or something like that.

Correct. Yes. You use hierarchy to contrast what is the choice architecture, right? Like left or right, blue or red, right? But I guess make it explicit in a sense where it's not like it's just red and then you hide the blue ones, right? You can actually get the blue one, but you must click three times and do all sorts of magic, right? So it's tricky. And it's also who designed on all of these things, right? So it's very interesting, like I said, dimension to...

to have an opportunity to work on these things, right? So I'm going to zoom out and ask about like your entire design career. Okay. So it doesn't just focus on grab. Have you ever gotten in a situation where you have an ethical dilemma as a designer before? Yes. I think I just mentioned right earlier where...

But like you said, it's not ad grab, it's just when I zoom out across my... Yeah, in general. So what did you do to manage that? Did you manage to resolve it or what did you do as a designer to manage it? I think what comes to mind, I remember with one of our Escalade Rebekah, I think I find myself when I don't know what to do or there's no outlet to this,

Sometimes I feel like I quit, I quit, I just move on, right? Find another place where I feel comfortable. So you've done it. You actually quit a job because of facing that ethical dilemma before. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but yes. So there are, I changed a job a lot. So Grab is my 10th company, I would say. So I changed a lot. I moved to startups. So I will not say this because of ethical. Maybe I reframe it. So when I find myself in a place that I'm compromising,

Right? It is a user experience or, you know, something about this, like what you mentioned, then I, the values, right? So as I would rather find opportunity somewhere else rather than giving excuses to, you know, to the issue that I contribute. I think that's very brave of you because I'm not sure if everyone will actually do that because I mean, it's a job anyway, and especially if it's a well-paying job, right? So if you don't, it's a good job.

It's a privilege. I acknowledge it. At least for myself, I just expect, can I live it with myself? I'm not going to judge someone else if they decide whatever. I think that's up to them. At least for me, I could

could find another job maybe less paying doesn't matter right so well it's actually i i think the practice is you know it's very gray and it's a lot more rampant than we think and there's always a saying right if i don't do it some other designer will

Right. So, so yeah, like, I don't know, like, I guess for you, you just like, yeah, I, I quit. So here's the thing, right? So I think I like that you bring this up. So I guess again, uh,

I think I've gone through this, a lot of these processes and sometimes I quit not because of, you know, something is wrong with the company. Maybe it's something wrong with me, right? Like I don't have patience and stuff like this. I think it's about mindset, right? So I think I've, over the years, I grew to learn that, you know, try to influence, you know, the world that you, you know, be the change, right? Basically. So if I feel like, oh, this is outside my control now, rather than like,

complaining about it and stuff like how do I turn that into an opportunity right let's be a designer here how might we you know solve this stuff right so that's why you see that nowadays it's more about like oh people let's say maybe not on top of their mind thinking about something blah blah blah then oh let's create a tool let's create an initiative so that there's less excuses so oh I'm not I'm not sure I don't understand I don't have time then when you have those tools then it makes it easier for them to

to use it, right? To understand it. I really like that. I think I've always known you to be a builder. So that's really nice that you bring that touch. But what I'm also hearing you say is that it's not about Rage Quit, the company. It's more like, it's more like actually these days is like, hey, you know, like are they actually suggesting this intentionally or unintentionally, right? If they're unintentional, can I like educate them about,

good ethical design practices or can I create a tool like what you said yeah and to be fair as well it's not like it comes from a place where I think I know better when I say opportunity then if let's say the tool is wrong or something then it creates this

space and again mindset of like, I think I read this somewhere where the best way to get the right answer online is to post the wrong one, right? So if you go to forum, you post out the wrong answer, someone, you know, keyboard warrior is going to go and correct you, right? But that's to me, that's how I see it, right? So meaning the best way is to put up an initiative. So maybe you are wrong, but that's fine because now the focus is less about

You will listen to the outcome, right? So the excuses is less about, I don't know. The excuses is, Ajay ma, you are wrong. Then correct me then, right? What you end up having is having these two where people maybe without even realize already adopting and use the tool. But now we're just discussing the details of should I, you know, use...

this audit that you created or should I build on top of it right so now you change the conversation and the topic of discussion already yeah yeah that's that's a really good point let's go somewhere lighter so like I don't bombard you with too many technical questions how has it been working in the Singapore tech scene so far because you've been here for several years now um

How has it been? I think it's been a great journey. Yeah, like you joined Grab way before the IPO. I mean, that was many, many years ago. And I think you just rose up through the ranks as well. So yeah, what are you observing? Like, is there anything...

that you're seeing in the tech scene or at least like how Grab is working that you think is very worthy to learn or that we as other designers should know. Right, right. Again, I'm not going to speak specifically for Grab, but I guess being at

company like Grab, which is the size and the problem space that is soft and stuff like this. I guess if I want to tie back to the role again as designer, I think the role evolved as well. I think when I joined, I think my role was called UX design and I think there's a lot more UX expected out of me. Let's say when I joined back then, it was like when we do the usability testing, we have a full support

of UX researcher, but then over the time it is expected out of product design. So they changed like the naming of the role, right? So now I have to moderate my, if it's in my language, right? Or if it's in English, if it's based in Singapore, I have to write the script. I have to, the role also, I would say evolve. And it's a good thing, right? So I think it's sort of like get you to- You get ownership. Ownership and work across the spectrum rather than very small specialization, yeah.

Yeah, that's really good. And I think I'm...

curious like I know you may not have been in the Malaysia tech scene for a while but I'm just curious how would you sort of like compare things because I'm looking at a lot of startups like in Singapore actually getting like unicorn status right there are some startups in Malaysia that are unicorn status like Qasem for example they're like lesser so just wondering like do you see any difference working in Malaysia versus working in Singapore tech uh

This is a good question. I never thought about it. So I don't know how to answer this in terms of like contrasting Malaysia. Even if I do, I think it's personal perspective. I think what sort of like pulled me into like Singapore tech scene is I used to come for a conference, CSS conference actually. So it's front end conference, which really happened in Singapore. So every time I visit Singapore for all of these learnings, I always find that, yeah, I can, it resonates with me, right? I mean,

As you mentioned, like everything that, you know, all the kind words that you share with me, I learned all of them in Malaysia. So it's not like trying to say one is better than the other. So I think it's just a matter of, you know, what resonates better at that point of time. Then I feel like, oh, if I want to pursue and having, you know, a career that I find meaningful, you know, and I want to have that level of craft. I think the opportunity back then was a mistake.

There's like support groups, pre-COVID, there's like this after work event, you know. So when I attend all of these in Singapore, I can feel sort of like, oh, this resonates with me better. And that's why I choose to find opportunity in Singapore.

Yeah, and we're very happy to have you here building the future of Grab, which is one of our unicorns. I mean, obviously Grab actually started in Malaysia first with their headquarters before they actually decided to relocate to Singapore. But yeah, we're really glad that they have groomed so much talent over the years. And we have a question from the audience and Debbie's asking, as I understand, most people transition to UX design may not have much experience to make a career move.

What kind of mindset and ability should these career transitioners have? Especially during the interview process, they might be asked about unethical design, right? Oh, sorry. So just to read it again, right? I think...

Question is it about what kind of mindset and ability we should have? Yeah, it sounds like what's the dilemma or you know, like how do I solve this dilemma if I'm new, I'm trying to do my interview, I'm trying to get into the industry but in that company they're like

maybe they're practicing a little bit of unethical design. I see. I see. I see. Yeah. Okay. This is a very good question. So I like this kind of question. So I would do this, right? For me, the way I try to navigate, you know, this kind of situation is usually if you don't care about ego or care about credits, if we, again, choice architecture, if you try to create a workshop where you sort of like present, this is the ethical way. And then if that idea that you,

want the outcome to be comes from the people who you collaborate with, right? Or co-create it. Let's imagine like me and you, right? So let's say you being hard on me, like somehow we create a workshop where you come up with the idea, like you feel like you contributed to this, right? To me, then it's easier to serve the outcome because sometimes it's actually, you know, when it's confrontational, let's say the way I do it is like, I want to be like,

this Mr. Know-it-all person and then I try to, oh, what you're doing, Dalen, is unethical. So when the dynamic of working, that's why I say I like the question, it's about mindset. So if the mindset is more about

focus on the outcome rather than the output which is like, oh, our experience here should not have automatic check. And so sometimes I guess when we as designer, right, we attention to detail, we get hung up on these things. We tend to forget about the outcome. So I think again, focus on the outcome and focus on create environment and create a place where

it feels like everyone has contributed to this idea and then I think you, at least from my experience, you get much easier, you know, collaboration, less friction, right? Because like now, all of a sudden, this genius ethical idea is like Dalen's idea, right? Although like you've been the one who like actually noticing it, observing it, and Dalen will figure, so it's a win-win, right? Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm getting you correctly, but correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing you say is that

we shouldn't claim moral superiority over the other person, right? We shouldn't judge the other person. Hey, you know, like you're practicing unethical design. This is bad. Like, I don't, I disagree with you. Yeah. If you start there, it's going to be a very hard, uh,

you know what i hear you suggesting is actually hey you know let's do a workshop together let's find a solution where we can actually do this design where it's actually ethical and then you hint to them and you try and shape that process where you try and influence them to more ethical practices and hopefully they get it and maybe they also feel like they're invested in it is that what you were saying exactly that right yeah so

I think that's a very smart move and actually that's really how we should work with other people as designers, to be collaborative. And it doesn't really matter whether it's your idea or my idea, right? Or who is wrong, you are right or I'm wrong. Sorry to interrupt. So I think what I like also having some experience working in behavioral science or design is you can actually use it for

we call it like a meta thing, right? So for example, like what I just described to you is called a rockstar effect, right? If I make you a rockstar, like what your idea is, then you will figure about it and then like, you know, you end up choosing, let's say you are the decision maker, right? In these things.

So if you apply Rockstar Effect methodology, which is make you feel like rather than I'm being this person, like you say, giving you all of this ethical and now all of a sudden there's this connotation that you're a bad person, you're unethical. So you can sort of apply these things to your daily life. I love that. I love that. You're using it in stakeholder management. Exactly, yes.

That's really awesome. Yeah, I didn't know there was a term for it, but yeah, that's the rockstar effect for all of you listening in. Hope we answered your question.

And yeah, let's talk a little bit about your transition process because I know you were first a web developer and then after that you joined the design team at Aviva where I met you. And then you went fully into design because I remember when you joined, you were doing a bit of code or yeah, right? You were still like coding for us a little bit.

little bit. Right, right. I guess not like production code, but at least some...

MVP code, right? Yeah, exactly. Our colleague, right, John? Yeah, ex-colleague John. Yeah, yeah. So I guess the question was, how do I translate or like... Yeah, like can you describe that transition process when you went from code to like design and then like fully on like design? Because I think if I remember correctly, a lot of what you learn is like self-taught and just like you practicing. Right, right. The role, like if you look at the naming of the role,

Probably you see Aviva is the place where I make the transition, but actually in my last company I worked with in Malaysia, in Kuala Lumpur, Kautim, that is where the role is called front-end dev, but I also volunteer to help out the design part. So I think back then we don't have Figma, we use Sketch and stuff. That's how I would describe it, right? Like if you see an opportunity and you know you want it, back then I was just, design could use some help and that's

I would do it, right? I would say I will absorb this responsibility and start. I mean, my design was very bad back then and I don't know a lot of things, right? That's how you learn on the job, I would say. And then I actually worked for a small startup based in Block 71 for two months before I joined Aviva. So I was also a designer there.

maybe I should not name this company but yes so I was working for them for two months and then I joined Aviva after that yeah and I remember you feeling a little maybe out of the water when you were first like picking up design so how do you make that process easier on yourself like during the transition process right yeah let's start with that

Bad news, it's not going to get easier now. I'm just kidding. I think... I will not say easier, right? So I think for me at least, it's a mindset shift, right? So I... You also mentioned it in the introduction again, right? I actually started as a digital marketer. It's about if you have that fear or like, oh, this is outside my comfort zone. I think the more you spend time there, the less... What's the right word here? It's like the less sensitive you feel on the fear itself. Like, oh... I mean...

Obviously, I've gone through all of the experience with imposter syndrome all the time. But I think once you be there almost all the time, then you feel like I just have to shift the mindset of learning. I think I also mentioned that that's how at least I navigate. I learn it and then the best way to learn is by doing it. And if you can do it and you cannot, when you share with others and others don't get what you mean, maybe you need more practice. Then if you can sort of like...

make people understand about what you do and what is your intention, then I think that's how you know you at least have some competency level on the craft that you're trying to master. Yeah, I think that is so true. So you just kind of grind it out and just try and... I mean, there's support system. So sorry to cut you off, but I think...

fellow designers you know i think i always go back to mindset and behavior so i think being being humble enough to when you don't know things right it's okay to just i don't know how to do this right so there's a lot of like i mean if you want to see like in terms of like let's say what you can do in terms of pillars or dimension again right is that okay have your support system so why is your support system is it online and offline or blah blah blah right so back then i guess in aviva there was

there's designer right there's rebecca there's yeah there were there were a few people a few people right so so then we can learn from each other that's one and then like i mentioned the um the conference and the after office stuff so there's a lot of support system that yeah so i just make sure that i have all of these and it address different different things right for all this support system

That's so true. I realized I learned quite a bit about product management at Aviva as well. Just learning from our London colleagues who were like a little bit more mature in the practice. Right, right. Community as well, right?

Yeah, it's really wonderful. And these days, designers have websites like ADP lists, right? So they can find a mentor and they can get a mentor. Are you on that list or are you mentoring people or how are you? Yes. I didn't know you're going to ask this, but somehow I was preparing for this. So if you go to my website and forward slash pay dash it dash forward, pay forward, actually have like a page dedicated for this. So I don't join ADP lists, but I've been...

trying to give back. Like I tell you earlier, I'm here because of my privilege. So I should pay for it. For me at least, I contribute to my alumni network. So I just don't feel as comfortable trying to market mentorship because again, there's imposter syndrome and all this kind of stuff. So personally, I just choose. Are you personally open to it? Yeah, for sure. Great. So you guys discovered Ajmao here.

on Curious Call. He's not on ATP list, so you can't find him there, but I'm sure... Can I reach out to you on LinkedIn or something? On my website. So if you go to my website, I actually say the best way to contact me is from my website. I'm going to go hunt your website now, but yeah, okay. We'll make sure that people who are here as part of the live audience gets a link to your website. And that's really great. And

Do you have any advice for people who are transitioning? You talk a lot about mindset. What kind of mindset should people have other than what you mentioned, being open to learning from others?

Right. It's a good question. Advice. Actually, I really decide to give advice because usually it's very, you know, it works for me, but maybe it doesn't work for other people, right? But yeah, so I think if I were to maybe share my personal perspective how I go through about it, I think one thing I realised, I mean, I mentioned I acknowledge my privilege, but one thing I realised is

the company the org that you want to work with doesn't owe you anything right so think of it as like even in the beginning think of it as transactional meaning i must contribute something in order for them to pay me as a designer right so i transition a lot right digital marketer so so why would someone pay me a front-end dev compensation when i'm a digital marketer right so again i was you know oh there's this opening and there's this opportunity then maybe i'll do it

I don't want to say for free, but yeah, so you do it first, showcase that you can contribute to it. And then I guess when people can see that, oh, you actually able to do it, then I think that the conversation is much easier. That's how I actually started as a front-end dev. So if you know your way around Google full, right, so you can Google, I actually offer up

to the world to build their website for free right so i think it's about three to five weeks for free again it's a privilege i can survive to provide for free i don't suggest like you know you should do it for free not everyone can do it so i'm not saying that but at least back then i could afford to do it um but that's what i did because like again the mindset is less about oh i have this knowledge then there's four you should pay me so i think the mindset was

If I can contribute to something that brings value to you, I think you have no problem paying to me, right? So if you have that mindset, at least for me, it works for me. I keep changing this role and then it works for me. I really like that. I mean, it's kind of like give first mindset, right? I'm willing to give what it takes first and then I'll get what I want. In a way, yeah. Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's a very abundant mindset because you feel like you have enough to give first.

before you like you need to take something so that's really wonderful so since you're like mentoring people and you're helping people you know what are some of the more common challenges that you see for people who are like trying to transition or to get into UX you know I think it's very unique at least for the network that I'm in so it's sometimes it's less about like this common or generic roadblock for them so let's say some designer is more extrovert

but then struggle with certain things. It's very case by case basis. So for example, like maybe some of them have challenging in whiteboarding, let's say, right? So then what we do, then let's have a mock interview, right? So something like that. So I think it's very different from... So I guess that's another thing, right? So I think...

by having that, like you say, mindset of abundance, and then you would realize and learn what is your strength, right? So maybe I have a strength in something, right? Maybe my background was digital marketing, then I know how to market myself or I know how to code. But then I don't know how to do visibility tests because back then there's no bootcamp and stuff like that, right? So once you know where's your strength, then again, when you apply a job, maybe if there's a company that really...

looking for that role and you have that strength, then that's where you can double down. It's almost like the Aviva job, right? If you remember, you mentioned yourself, you have to code, right? But it's not expected for designer to code. But my title back in Aviva was UX designer, right? So I see that, oh, I'm a good fit for this role, right? So apply, right? So yeah.

Yeah, I remember back then you were just like, or I don't know, consciously or unconsciously, that our manager was like stretching you. Although Ajmal's not very used to doing research. Let's get Ajmal to do more research. But thank God for that, right? So I guess it became a good challenge and a good experience.

Yeah, so I think you were up for that challenge and you were open to it. And I think that also helps make you a more rounded designer. And by the time you left, you were ready to work at Grab and be like, I mean, if I remember correctly, you were a full stack developer. No, no, no, no. I was front end. I don't know. You were just front end. Okay, okay, got it. Well, I could at least say like you're a full stack designer now.

No, no, no, no such thing. Is there no? No such thing. There's no such thing. Yeah. There's so many dimensions, right? So I don't want to say layers, not layers, right? There's inclusive design, there's accessibility, there's interaction design. So there's no such thing. I mean, maybe there is a unicorn. There may be a unicorn somewhere. But I'm not it. So I'm not it. I mean, I'm looking at your skill set. Like you can code. You're interested in behavior design. You can do UX research. You can do UX design. Like no problem at all.

Yeah, I don't know man. You come very close to what I would imagine as a startup to want to hire like a unicorn but

That's the key word here. So what do you mean if you imagine a spectrum? I think I imagine like this kite, you know thing where footballers like oh passing dribbling, you know, like so I think it's impossible for someone to have like, you know, a very full right so Oh, right. So like from all the way from one end to the other like yeah, yeah Things like I don't have so much experience maybe accessibility design. So that is a bit sure maybe it's not because like

I'm bad at it, I just don't have opportunity to solve or to explore those. So that's why I said it depends how do you define. Yeah, that's excellent that you point that out because in UX we're always working in a team and it's like the strength of the team determines the strength of the work in the end. So I think you make really good points because we help polish each other and make the work even better in this case.

And I think someone was asking in the audience as well, like, you know, what is the benefit of using a design system as a designer and as a developer, right? Would you be able to answer that? Yeah, I also try to look at this question. Maybe I reframe a bit the question, right? So I think it might be tempted to think that, you know, or knowing this skill make you code faster, maybe in some capacity or in some context, yes. But sometimes...

So to me, at least I see it as an ability of having the clarity. So meaning, sometimes you need to slow down, actually, right? It's not always about being fast. So I say, let's use an example of like, people who do speed reading, right? So people who do speed reading, it's not about like, I can finish this book very fast, right? Because it's about, you can read very fast, but when the times, you know, you want to absorb what you want, you actually slow down, right? So when it comes to that, it's actually about control. You can control your speed, right? Yeah, so that's the generic answer to this, but I think

the question is more i think you you were asking yeah what is the benefit of using a design system as a developer or designer yeah right so i think you solve a lot of things right so you would have more cohesive and harmonious design right meaning what that means is rather than open book then i can design whatever buttons i want you can and then imagine you have 100 of you then which one do we and i think also important to see from the lens of the customer right

If the customer have, every time I change the services, let's say I'm trying to order food or I try to book a ride, then every time I have to learn this UI or learn this experience because of all the different contexts, then there's a very high connectivity load. So by having a harmonious and cohesive experience,

which actually what design system is aimed you know to do that definitely not just help the customer but help you to build faster as well so now we know oh it's almost like lego block right so if you know like you have this lego set and stuff so if you have some you know product or experience which you want to create then you know how to compose these building blocks in a way right but if you don't have lego let's say you give you a clay then just

give me something dylan right give me a a sheep right can you build a ship then you do your own way and stuff but if you give me a lego then almost yeah it's a lot easier to build from lego blocks than to design from scratch exactly and it helps me code as well for sure yeah yeah that's that's a very good analogy you know what i was just checking out your website and i'm i want to point out like a few things so i'm going to share screen which i usually never don't do but um wow

Wow, like this is amazing. So Archmell has actually been a podcast host before for an internal design podcast back in 2019 with fellow designer Ting Lang.

So, yeah, tell me about that experience, like, you know, hosting like an internal design podcast. Like, is it still ongoing or what's happening? No, so as he says there, it's only 11 episodes. Yeah, maybe we do season two or something. Yeah, I think, again, for me, it's opportunity to learn how to, like what we're doing here, right? So I think I have this fear of,

speaking in public and stuff and like maybe it's still now I stutter a lot and a lot of fillers and stuff so when I do this you know co-hosting then I get to listen back to my you know I think I would say there's multiple sort of like

outcome and benefit of doing this. So again, we don't just interview design, we actually interview others. So I get to learn about other roles as well. So we interview TPM, UX researcher, so I use that as an opportunity. And I think my takeaway for this activity was in the series

we have this thing where what did you learn this week? So I really like that question. So you'll be surprised when you ask people, what did you learn this week? So we get a lot of answers. So it's just that I get to learn as well. Like, oh, I didn't know about this. I don't know about this. So yeah, that's really awesome. I'm wondering after you did this personal project, has it helped your career in any way or did it make you more visible in the organization?

Not really. Not really, actually. I think it just helps me. So now I think I do presentation more, a lot as well. Yeah, it gives me confidence. So it was like practice for you, right?

Yeah, so I think it, I mean like I mentioned earlier, it means a lot of things to me. And then I think I talk about being in lead level, right? So back then I was senior and then like, how do I scale myself, right? So it's sometimes what you're gonna say, it's not just how do I scale my, like, oh, I wanna be, you know, clone myself. So sometimes it's about maybe design as you see these themes of, you know, engineer, analytics and designer, we are all design partners, right?

maybe to make us collaborate better is to actually share a perspective of engineer to your fellow design. So just by interviewing and giving context and asking questions, then we will, oh, I didn't know TPM do this. I didn't know. So that's another way to, and then it's just one of the things where maybe not a lot of people, maybe not everyone into podcast.

Sometimes it's the format, you know, like this is one of it. Maybe some of it was like, if you scroll down, right, this is self-serving tools and stuff like that. So just try to come up with a lot of,

format that might reach to different kind of audience. Yeah, it's just wonderful initiative. And I also noticed over here, which is why I wanted to share screen that you were working with Preeti. You actually came up together some frameworks, which I think we mentioned it earlier, right? About how do you nudge responsibly? So these are ethical dilemmas, right? And what's the ethical framework back in 2019 and a

Gamification playbook. This is really interesting. Is this in the is the product in the form of a book or what's happening? Some of this is in like format of a document rights and the playbook is in the format of web sites, so it's like a website where you can land and then there's a link to slack and then there's a embedded size and this like a

it's almost like these small tools where you know if you go to e-commerce where you want to filter all black colors and you know size, M and stuff like that so we almost have like this laundry list of game mechanic then we have this dimension that you can filter you know what is your business goal what is you know the user level so we have all of this stuff so then just to help with the ideation process

Yeah, so for those of you who are interested to check out like the screen I was mentioning about, you can just type in ajmalafif.com. So it's A-J-M-A-L-A-F-I-F.com. That's Ajmal's like personal site. This is like something you can go and check it out.

And well, thanks for sharing that. I was just wondering, you know, like, it seems like you work on a lot of side projects or, you know, mini projects outside of your work scope and your responsibility. Would you encourage designers to do that, like in general?

Yes. So in general, I feel like, yeah, do whatever you feel meaningful and productive to you. So I think all of us have our own sort of like priorities in life, right? Maybe I don't necessarily think you have to do, but I think for me, it's just natural for me. I feel excited like doing, so I have this setup. It's not because of the podcast actually. The podcast setup was very minimal setup. I,

I'm doing this for like a private streaming. So that's one of the productivity hack that I do. So I do private streaming. So it's just that I always find myself, there's a lot of books also in the background. So I think I just enjoy applying knowledge that I absorb. So for example, like, you know, oh, give me vacation playbook or I have to code a website. So I feel like if I know stuff, but if I don't really think about the outcome, so bringing value with the knowledge, I feel like I'm just like this person

useless library where I have all the knowledge but I'm not giving value to others so I think it's just more an outlet to apply what I learned yeah and maybe I have some kind of

fixation on on trying to to have this mastery of you know there's this thing that i'm trying to bridge between design and in code um yeah and try to have more yeah yeah that's really good i remember i think this was years ago we talked about it and i think it was you who showed me this website where people were just like building mini products and they were making money out of it

Well, it was you, right? Maybe, yeah. Maybe it was me. I don't know what's the name of the site. It's like Hackers or something like that. Indie Hacker. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Indie Hackers or something like that. So that's why I always remember you as a builder. So are you also thinking of doing something like that in future? Because I know our manager went on to do that and he's built a business around it. Right. One thing I realized...

after jumping a lot of sort of like roles, if it becomes your full-time job, it's no longer enjoyable. So I think, at least for me, I find like, you know, some of the hobbies that I have, I have a few hobbies, but being able to code without having the stress of deadline and like bug fixing, you know, all this kind of stuff, it's great, right? But who knows, right? Maybe in the right time and chapter of my life, maybe having...

independence and stuff maybe that will help then maybe I would consider it but I think for now it's more around yeah and I think one thing I realized that keep driving me that I don't necessarily feel like I should oh I learned this so I must retrofit this to my work but

But it just feels good when the time is right, then, oh, actually, I know some of this stuff. Let's say, like, the engineer is saying, oh, we are using React, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because, like, you have sort of explored those stuff, then you're like, oh, I can sort of understand what you're talking about, right? So it really sometimes helps with your work. So, yeah, that's just, I guess, a bonus. It's like you're tinkering. Yes. Yeah, like, I think, like, a fun fact for everyone who, which is what fascinates me about HatchMall is that

uh archmau actually has a degree in actuarial science in case you don't know what that means uh like insurers use actuarial science to determine like the amount of premiums they should charge someone so it's you have to study economic principles for that someone actually asked how do you spell that so yeah like you mentioned some of your hobbies like tell us like one hobby that people don't

Okay, so Archvile obviously studied it.

I mean, I lost touch with some of it. I used to play futsal and stuff like this, play video games. Right now I'm learning Japanese language. So that's my hobby now. I'm right now learning how to read time in Japanese. So yeah, so that's what I'm doing now. Okay, interesting. So I'm going to use a question that you used to ask your podcast guests. What did you learn this week?

Nice. What do I learn this week? I have a diary. Should I open up my diary? What do I learn this week? So what I wrote down here is what I learned. This is very specific. So if ever in your design, you talk about persona, right? Maybe it's good to share a percentage of how many segments of your user resonate with the persona. Because sometimes if you talk about this persona stuff,

depends on school of thought. Some people think this is outdated, right? Because like, oh, your users, blah, blah, blah, so many from, you know, so to generalize it to three or four, you know, it's probably overgeneralizing, right? Like it's not accessible, all this kind of stuff. But I think if there is a need and time to

share a persona just by mentioning oh by the way this account for 60% of our user because our product is crypto or something like that then all of a sudden you know it carries more weight to the I'm sorry it's very specific but this is what this is my last note so this is what I learned this week yeah this this is like actually a very interesting note because I think that personas got so much

a flack for being inaccurate and people were criticizing it. And like some people say, hey, you don't have to use it for every project. Every bootcamp teach you to create a persona, right? So like how useful it is, it has been always up for debate. And I think this is a really a good point. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, because one thing I teach my students is like a good persona is whereby when you show it to someone who's either...

in the same segment or related to that segment around the same age group, they're going to say, hey, this reminds me of someone I know. Right. So like when people actually say that, you know, like you've done a good job writing the persona because it's detailed enough. But also you've done a good job like highlighting some of the things and attributes of the person. So that's something I tell my students.

as well so yeah it makes a lot of sense to me just as a passing note i was wondering do you have any advice for you know your juniors here today like what advice would you give to like your much younger ux design self it's a very good question i think you asked this question but yeah i'll try to answer anyway i think goes to the mindset right i think the mindset of

always learning and it's like a lifelong sort of like journey, right? Like I mentioned to you earlier, like design is so broad, right? It can be. And then I would say learn about yourself as well. So meaning like, for example, like again, coming from digital marketing and all this stuff. So when I found that I actually enjoy

being a designer, I stick to it, right? Instead of, oh, now it's not design, I don't, I want to try something else. So just by, you know, knowing myself better, I feel like now I feel like, okay, design is where I can contribute meaningfully on the strategy and influence the roadmap, you know? Yeah. So that is where I feel in product lifecycle, at least that I find myself.

enjoying the process, right? Championing the user, right? And then like if you know how to code, then you can also contribute a bit about the solution or the product that you want to build. So rather than let's say the opposite, I am a developer who can design, then sometimes it's a bit, sometimes the setup of where you work maybe does not necessarily help

maybe to me it's still helpful to be a multi-dimensional sort of like professional but I still think at least what I enjoy is to be a designer who could yeah and actually maybe this could be your new tagline this is my marketer head like turning around it's I think you have a thing for languages you get it maybe yeah you have a thing about languages right because you said you're learning Japanese and Thai but you actually you know quite a number of

languages, so to speak, like including coding. Actually, I put it in my website. I said I'm learning Japanese and JavaScript. That's what I said. Yeah, that's the thing, right? You could say you're a designer who loves languages.

But with that, thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing your experiences. Yeah, it was fun catching up and learning more about you. And thank you everyone in the audience for your questions. We shall see you next month in another session of Working in UX Design. And thank you very much everyone for attending. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com. I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.