Episode 4: Building a UX Team with Preston Matsuwaki, Product Owner at PebbleRoad
48:31 Share

Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core.

Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year. Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design.

So Preston has a portfolio of over nine industries solving organizational problems and nurturing successful design teams. He started out as a freelancer and has actually evolved into multiple design roles, including being a UX designer at InnoCellence, where he worked with international clients from the medical industry and a part-time UX design instructor at General Assembly.

He was also the UX lead at JLT, where he built, managed, explored and maintained multiple bespoke digital products for their clients. So Preston has taken each transition as a learning experience to grow outside of his comfort zone and solving problems with design became more than a digital outcome today. He currently works at Pebble Road as a product owner and he helps companies be aware of root problems.

collaborate with their working teams to solve them and prepare them for skill. So Preston and I tonight are going to talk about building a UX design team and let's put our virtual hands together to welcome him for tonight's show. Well, welcome Preston to the show. Thank you for having me. Let's start with building teams in UX design.

I heard that you've tried that three times and tell me a little bit more, you know, what are your reflections building UX design teams three times, anything that you felt you could have done better?

Well, I think it's the same as every learning experience. You do something once, the second time you do it, you do it better because you learn from your mistakes. The third time, you learn from that mistake and then you carry it forward and it goes on and on. The most recent one that I put together was at a government agency and what I can say is that it gets better every time. As simple as that. Same as every learning experience, it gets better every time.

You understand what you did wrong, you understand your mistakes, you don't be

stuck up about it, you don't be stubborn about it, you learn from it, you take the learnings and you apply it and do it differently. Try new ways, don't be afraid to fail. And each time when you're doing that, it brings you into something better or brings you into a different opportunity where you could maybe explore a different scenario, explore a different way of how you want to structure the team or explore another way of how you want to maybe maintain the cadence. Building teams is not just about

Putting together designers is about people. You have to figure out the people part a lot. It's not just about hiring roles, it's not just about understanding what we need, it's also about the relationship. And I think that's a very core importance when you come into building teams.

I think when I was starting out, somebody once told me, "I don't bring in relationships in work because it destroys my concentration or whatever." But for me, I don't see it that way. To build a team, you need to form relationships. I need to understand people. I need to understand my team, my designers. I need to understand why we're doing certain things. I need to make sure that we are aligned and I'm helping them to be aligned with what they want to achieve as well. And when we get to that stage where we're both aligned,

it brings the team forward into new areas that we could explore, new things that we could see better in that sense. Excellent. And I think there are definitely a lot of lessons along the way as I hear you've built teams internally as well as externally as a consultant. So I wanted to understand a little bit if let's say today you're to go back to being a

a UX manager again and you're building your first team, what are some of the things you would have done differently? That's kind of an interesting question because my job in Pebble Road, it varies. We solve problems across organizations that have different design issues.

Usually, I kind of get put into the team problems or organizations that can't build teams or don't know how to start teams or try before or they don't know what to do with their design arm. So I don't really need to think back about, you know, how am I going to do it differently? Usually, the next client I get is going to be something around that. It's going to be building a team, helping them get out of that plateau that they've been on.

Just to answer your question, one thing that I'm learning right now actually, one of the things that I think that, not say failed, but it's challenged that it could have been better, was because we have this whole entire COVID issue. And I think something interesting was that for this client, this particular client, I'm supposed to be flying over to Thailand and build their team from there, understand their people, understand the culture, start the team from scratch, form that relationship with the people, the existing designers that were there. And I think one thing that I want to try and figure out how to do better is

If working remotely is going to be such a norm in the future, how do I build teams remotely in a better context? Because one of the excuses that I'm giving right now is that

it couldn't have been better because I was working remote. You know, how do I form a relationship with somebody from a different culture sitting across another screen and build a team in Singapore when that person's in Thailand or that people is in Thailand? How can I do that better? And I think that's something that I want to try and figure out. I'm trying to salvage what we have right now. I think it went okay, but I think it could have been way better. And that's definitely one thing I want to try and figure out next. Hmm.

And what are some of the early successes that maybe you have discovered or maybe some of the more effective tactics or strategies you may have encountered about building remote teams? Okay, so I would say that this is my first remote team.

I've never built a remote team before. I've always been building physical teams. I think one of my strengths is forming relationships and that really helps in building teams because I get to understand them, they get to understand me, we get to form a connection and a bond that... Okay, I'll give you an example. I used to play paintball, they call it speedball in Singapore. It's basically a five-man sport and as a five-man team, we train every weekend

to understand each of our roles. So we have a front row, back row, middle row. And because we all have different roles and we've been training every single week, there's a synchronization that you know what the person behind you is going to do, what the middle guy is going to do, what the front guy is going to do. Same thing for design teams. Because you're there, we meet each day, we understand their culture, we understand the way how they respond to things, we understand the way how they speak. There's a sense of

prediction in that sense, a sense of family, I would say, I guess, teamwork, you know, that psyche is there that we would know how to handle things differently. And I think what kind of disrupted that was that when we went remote, that whole entire structure that all that whole entire way of how I used to do things changed. And that was the tricky part, you know, so I'm trying to figure out now it's like, how do I get that same emotion, that same connection, but remote?

And I think that's a very challenging piece that moving forward, I think maybe a lot of companies will have to face because it seems like we're going to be doing this for a while. You know, even my company, we're not going back to the office anymore. It's 100% work from home. So, you know, it's interesting.

Yeah, that brings about a lot of issues, as you mentioned. While people are working remote, everyone's trying to grow. Maybe let's start with in the past, right? You've built three teams, you've done it physically. What has worked well for you when you're building UX design team?

Would you apply it to building any team or is it more specific to UX design? Okay, so I would put it in two different sections. I would have building a team or building a connection, building a team, and then there's building the implementation team, which is the UX team. So implementation could mean anything, right? Marketing team, UX team, whatever team.

So the first thing I always like to focus on is, I mean, I think it's a standard, you know, when you have somebody that comes into your team or a leader that comes into your team or a new person that comes in your team, what is the first thing that you do? You try to get to know that person. You try to create that bond. You try to create that relationship. You try to understand that person's vision or mission or goal in life.

How does it tie to the work maybe? How can you all work together as a more stronger unit? And I think that's the first step of being a team. That's something that I apply every single time I go into, not just a team, a client, meeting somebody. It's about being genuine. It's about understanding why are we even here in the first place? Why are we stuck together in this group?

that's supposed to be working together? You know, what's the point of all this? Do we see eye to eye? Do we have the same goals? Have the same direction at least of where we're going? With that in place, then we kind of get an understanding, okay, okay, this is the direction of where we're going. We understand each other, you know. We come from the same background. Then how are we going to do it? And that comes to the implementation part. That's when we...

bring in the roles, the responsibilities. What are we missing? Who do we need to hire? If we can't hire, what do we do? You know, all those other stuff comes into next first. But I think to answer your question, for me, it's always building the relationship first. It's always understanding why you're here, what are we doing? I do one thing that maybe it's a bit...

weird my previous client commented like it was kind of weird every time a new designer or I hire a new designer or new designer joins one of the first things I ask is what's your five-year plan if they don't have a five-year plan what is their goal in life

And it gets a bit personal at the start, especially like, you know, you don't know the person and then this person is asking you, what's your goal in life? But my main point of asking that is really to find out, can I help you align your goal in life with what we're doing in this company? Because if I can find the alignment, I can, in that sense, ignite that passion to find purpose in our company or in our client.

If you say that your goal in life is to meet people, then I want to make sure that you're client-facing. I want to make sure that you're in a team that is moving forward, is talking a lot. If you're telling me that you have something that you're trying to figure out, but you have an idea of what you like, I want to try and match that as a leader. I don't want to put you in a place where you're not growing or you can't see that you're not growing. I think that's another interesting thing, is trying to make sure that I'm helping to give that

vision or a door to how you can see things differently. And I think that's kind of like my job as a lead as well. It's not just directing in the implementation side. It's what you're doing here has a meaning, has a purpose. And that's what I think is the core piece when starting a team. That's a really good point. And I think it's so important to...

start with the why, right? Which is essentially what you're doing. You're trying to align their why with the organization's why. And I don't think a lot of leaders do that enough. And I really appreciate that you shared that and you're doing that. So Preston, on the flip side, I want to ask you, what should you avoid doing now knowing what you know? Okay, I'll try to answer that in two parts as well. I think it's different for everybody.

everybody by right should know their limits in terms of personal space or just their limits in general. One of my issues I realized is that it's hard for me to let go. So my job is to create teams. My job is to build relationships. My job is to form connections. My job is also to scale them and to let them go when they're ready. So the hard thing for me that I try not to do or I

It's a bit of a contradiction. I need to build relationships, but I can't build it too deep. That's the hard part for me. And it's also hard as a team leader when you're starting something and you're putting everything that you have to build that team. Either it goes bad or it goes good. Bad, it hurts you. Good, it also hurts you. Because eventually your people are going to grow.

They're going to learn, they're going to become better than you. They're going to leave, they're going to go somewhere better. And you need to be ready to let go. And I think that's one of the hardest things that I had to learn at the start, learning how to let go people and not be selfish and hold them back. And that applies for everything. I think that's such a great piece of learning. And what I hear you say is cultivating this attitude of being somewhat detached, but also not being too attached to people because people will grow or people will leave.

And I wanted to ask you when you said not build relationships too deep, how do you know? How do you know you built a relationship too deep? I am learning that every day. I mean, I think it's a mentality. It comes to a point where you have to give away your selfish desires, you know, whatever they think about. You want to grow a team that's so good and keep it for yourself or you, you know, whatever you need, throw all of that away. If your main vision, your focus is on the end outcome, which is, let's say, for example,

I mean, a team is about people. So if it's about I want to make the best team, it means that I produce good designers and I attract good people that also want to come in and I grow them, means that I need to be ready for that. And if I'm in that state where I'm ready for that, means that

you won't have to set the limit of when it's too deep. What's the limit of forming relationships? Because at that mindset, you're already ready to let go. And you're already taking in, letting go, taking in, letting go. The hard part is the endurance. I think that's also not easy for many leaders, especially if they are new UX managers in this field.

I wanted to ask specifically for UX design teams, are there anything, say, a new UX design manager should look out for or be conscious of when they're building a UX design team? Because we have a lot of aspiring practitioners as well as practitioners here listening. I think it's natural. It's only natural when you're in a team and you're building a team, you realize the gaps. And as every UX manager would know,

There's no unicorns in the industry. Even if they are, they're probably exhausted and they're dying. Or they work by themselves because they're so rare. And even if you try to do everything, you can't get every single piece right. I used to be a unicorn back when I was a designer as well. You can never do everything perfect. And it will come to a point where you start learning that

everybody has a particular role that they have to play, everybody has a core strength. Of course they should know everything, but everybody has a core strength. And usually what I like to do is I like to build my teams around multiple core strengths. First of all, one of the main things I like to do is identify the gaps. In a team, in an organization, whether or not it's organization maturity or it's going to be team maturity, what am I looking for? So as a UX manager, let's say we look at a team perspective.

the people that I have, what are they good at? What are their strengths? Maybe I have a designer that's really good in visual representation, visual arts, or there's a visual eye. And maybe his passion is also in the visual eye, in the visuals. So maybe I'll categorize him as the UI designer. I have another person that's looking at always wanting to solve problems, always wanting to figure out how do I ideate, how do I solve that? Now I'll put that under another category.

And then I'll form a whole bunch of categories and realize, okay, I'm missing pieces. And usually it's around the area of research or testing or analysis. But nowadays, it's actually the opposite. We have more researchers and analysis, but then less people that actually want to solve the problem. So it really depends. And then once you have that structure of your people, their strengths, their core skill sets,

Then you'll notice the gaps and that's who you start hiring, that's who you start looking for. And that's usually something that I do. Just identifying team maturity, identifying design maturity in the team. Yeah, I think I love that analogy that you brought in about it's almost like building a puzzle, right? And you are finding like everyone is a different piece in that jigsaw puzzle you're trying to build and you're trying to make your team as well-rounded as possible. I think that's so awesome.

on point. We have a question from Elaine. She's asking in Singapore as a UX designer, how would you scope out the role for each designer in the team for a product company?

Like, do you have a process of like maybe scoping out the role or writing the job description? I think it's different for every hiring manager. I'm going to reply in what I would do, but I'm not sure if a lot of people do it this way. So like I mentioned, right, there's gaps. Sure, I can hire by role. But there are two other factors as well that I like to look at. I like to look at potential. And I also like to look at one thing, which is called chemistry.

And potential is the easy part. You see where they want to go. Is it aligned? Do they have some sort of expertise? What's their passion of how they're going to fuel it? That's easy. Chemistry is the interesting part. Chemistry could be chemistry with my team, chemistry with the project, chemistry with the people. And maybe my team is lacking that chemistry. Maybe the client side that I'm going to put the designer in is lacking that chemistry. And that could be what I hire you for as well. So it really depends on

where and what this situation is. I do mentoring now and then for designers as well. I get this question a lot and I always tell them it really depends, you know, if you're putting up a portfolio, of course you're showcasing your skill set, you know, and that's great. But it's also going to be quite standard unless you overly think things and the recruiter likes to see that kind of things and then, you know, read your whole entire set of information. But one thing that I always ask my designers to do is show personality.

You know, you need something that differentiates you from every other designer that's coming up from every other school in Singapore or in Asia. But what we're looking for as managers, or at least what I'm looking for as a manager, is I'm looking for that missing piece in my team.

Not just in terms of skill set, I'm looking for somebody that's going to maybe call everybody out for lunch, the glue that holds people together. Maybe somebody that's going to help another designer branch out more or explore more because of your certain skill set that's complementary. Maybe I'm looking for somebody that's feisty to bring fire into the team. You know, there's so many things and your personality is the one that shows that. The

The way how you would approach design, the way how you approach problems would be the one that shows that. And going back to the question, highlight yourself. You're unique. And good hiring managers know how to spot good people. When we say recruiters spot good people, it's literally we want you. I mean, we want your skills as well, but we're looking at you. You are the factor.

If you're a shitty person and you keep every job, you get fired or you leave because of whatever, then you don't get the job. Maybe it's because it's you. It's not your skill set. You could be amazing. I've interviewed amazing designers and had really shitty attitudes to a thing and there's no way I'm going to bring them to my team because I don't want the rest of them to behave like that. It's just stuff like that. It's chemistry.

That's so on point and I wanted to ask you, was there any application that you received as a manager that really stood out and that you could really sense the person's personality? How did he or she do it? Actually, I thought you're gonna go to the opposite and then like why didn't you hire the person? And then I was like, oh no, is that person gonna be here? Let's focus on the positive. Okay, let's look at the positive, right?

I was so pissed off that this was the one time. So usually when I hire people and I sit inside interviews, I grill them on the questions that they don't think they will get, that they won't ask. Like I will really look at purpose. I'll look at desire. I'll look at passion. And this one person, right? I think one of my designers tipped them off

for what I usually would ask. So every question I asked, she had a perfect response! And I was so angry, like, "How can you be so prepared for this?" Yeah, but she basically answered everything. So I went all the way to

Trying to utilize what they did before and how is it going to apply affect our company even though it's so far You know I want to see if they could see further than their problems one thing I like to ask also is when people leave their company I always like to ask them then why do you leave the company? What's the problem your company and then you'll tell me the problem then I'll ask them Why didn't you solve it? You know this kind of things they get stunned and then they try to answer but Yeah, there's this one person

answer every single question on point, could see things the way how I would see things. I'm not sure if she prepared or she's really like that, but I hired her after that. At that point, it wasn't about skill anymore. It was about somebody that could see past the norm or see past the issues, see further than that, has an understanding. In that sense, sort of a strategic mindset. And I think that was what I would always like to take in my teams. Yeah.

Thanks for sharing and I hope she's working out as a hire. Yeah, she's still in the place. Lovely.

So we have another question and or rather a comment. It was mentioned that if he's like in a corporate world in order to gain new heights, Kari is mentioning, you eventually have to start leading and managing people. Unfortunately, my personality is not really suited for this path. Am I just perpetually stuck at being just a designer? This is a tough question. Okay. We had something similar in my company as well. But let me put it this way.

Growth is change, right? When you grow, mindset will change as well.

Sure, at the start of it, maybe if it's not to your personality, it's fine. Usually a company would have a space where you can go into a senior role of whatever that you're doing. Sometimes if they don't have that and you're not ready to go to the next stage, you can go find another company that has that ladder in that sense for that one particular role to be an expert. And I think those companies that have that really value the skill set and you should go for companies like that,

But at the same time, there are companies where they don't have that in-depth skill set and their method of growth is management, which is most corporate, some of the corporate agencies or corporate companies. When it goes to that part, right, we have two things that you need to figure out already. Is this for me? You know, am I ready to move to the next step, which is basically not say leading people, but

overseeing things. I think there's, it's a bit fuzzy, but I think there's three stages of growth as a designer. You have your, something about tactical, something, and then strategic or something like that. There's three, I can't remember, or four. There's four levels of it. I remember that because it's like an army mindset

at a certain stage you'll stop looking at your problems if you're a core expert in whatever you're doing let's say this is your problem you're so good at this problem there's certain states you'll grow out of this problem to see things above

And at a certain stage, you'll go even one more layer to see things above that above. That's growth, right? You're growing to see things at a more strategic level. And in your case, right, you have to look at two things, you know. It's not about managing or leading people. It's about seeing things from a different perspective. When you start seeing things from a different perspective, naturally, you will lead people because you're going to be seeing things in a different light. And people won't be able to see that and they need your help to see that.

So if you have a role, if you have a path that you can go and just be really good at that one role and they keep giving you pay increment that's so high, go for it. Be safe in that comfort zone and get free money. I'm all up for that. But you know, if there's a place that encourages you to go up because they see the value in your leadership, they see the value in what you are doing, that you can see something more than that, don't take it as, oh, I'm going to have to start talking to people or I'm going to have to lead teams.

take it as people rely on me my company relies on me to see things in a different way how can i contribute that and then slowly try to figure out okay you know there's one piece let's say you're really confident that okay company values me then i need to look at the personality please or the people piece how do i start talking to people one-on-one that's when you actually have to start going out to meet people

try chit chat one by one meet people individually to your comfortable and you don't have to be like large-scale people like Daylan or me sitting in front of random people and talking to a whole bunch of people just do it individually one by one you know even for me I don't like conferences I don't like all these large talks I would rather have one-on-one conversations because I feel it's more genuine and all that are you an introvert Preston

I think I grew into one when I was younger, I was extrovert. But that's a different story because I was homeschooled and everything, so everything stacks up. But I have my reasons. But basically what I'm trying to say is that being more focused will help you grow certain things. Eventually, when the time comes, the time comes for you to talk to more people, you talk to more people. And let it run its course. Don't force it. I mean, you can force it, but you need to know yourself as well. I hope that answers it.

Yeah, I like that analogy because I think there are leaders who are sort of asked to lead during certain circumstances. And because you're just the obvious choice or it's also because you're the most qualified person. So you're asked to take on that leadership role. So I think there are so many different leadership styles and perspectives.

As Preston mentioned, it doesn't have to be like a leader from the front kind of leadership. It can be

a very soft and supportive kind of leadership style as I'm hearing from Preston. So I'm sure you'll find it, but in case you still do not find this the path that you want to take, I think it's still possible to be a really good subject matter expert and get paid well for it. I'm sure there will be a company that value you for that. Yeah.

We have a question from Luis in Colombia. I read the question and I know. He's asking about burnout. So how do you manage burnout? And I'm sure this is even more pertinent during COVID. Luis, you're probably feeling burnout right now. That's why you're asking this question. I tell you it's one of the hardest things. I would say that it's...

Okay, I'm winging it a lot right, in this whole entire conversation, you know. I'm sure if I prepared for it, I would have like steps and all these kind of things, but there are things that every human needs to do, okay? Family, friends, activities, side activities, community, okay? You need a bunch of things to help keep you grounded. Okay, I'm gonna pick out a few, right? You need to have some sort of release. I do two things, okay?

I'm afraid of heights, so I rock climb.

Okay, so I do that to build my confidence, to build the mentality, to take away my mind from what's happening in the world. Another thing that I do is I play a lot of video games because it keeps me active at the same time it takes my mind away of things. So basically what I'm saying is that you need to have activities, you need to have friends, you need to have a strong community that helps to help you see the different line of what you're going through. It is possible but it takes a lot of effort.

The activities help you to release, the community helps you to understand. And I think that's something that you need to have a balance in your life. And if you're not getting that balance, I would say leave your company because if you're not getting a balance, the most important thing is your health.

I think that makes perfect sense and that's excellent advice for managing burnout from self. How about taking care of burnout in your team? How do you help them manage burnout better? I would say this is a tricky part as well. As a manager,

If you talk about helping burnout or taking away burnout from your team, this is what I think. That basically for me means taking the load off them. Also, it means taking what they're going through, putting on myself. I have this other theory that I tell everybody. As a manager, your job is a shit filter. You filter shit so that your team doesn't have to embrace the full... Yes, you can imagine. The full works. The full works of everything. So I would say that

Taking certain things that you know that you can do to help push the team forward or to take away certain things that are aggravating them at certain areas. As a leader, you should know. You should know when your team is getting burned out. You should know what triggers them. And as a leader, also your job is to try and mitigate it in that sense. But the problem with that also is the more you take, the more you also feel burned out. So the challenge is if your team is giving up too much,

then the issue is also not yourself as a team. You need more people maybe, or you need a new structure, a new process. If you are taking a little bit and you can't handle it, then it's yourself. You also need to figure out how to release more or to find a better way to do it. But what I'm coming to is answering your question, understand your team enough so you know what to take from them so that you can counter that.

Yeah, and I think that's relevant because as middle managers, we also tend to put a lot on ourselves. And I was wondering, is it part of your practice to also share your burden or share the problems with your team? And if so, how do you do it? I'm going to put it this way. I think...

the good thing about my personality is that I'm able to put things in a fun non-serious but serious manner I can downplay a lot of heavy things and I think that's kind of maybe a

I don't know, something that I have. Everybody has different things, right? I think this is one of maybe my strengths. Like I'm able to downplay things in a good way. So heavy things that are coming in in a good way. Or maybe to reframe it, reframe things in a good way. And that really helps for them and for me when things are going bad. Do you have an example to share?

Let's say for example, we're going to a meeting, I'm giving an introduction, my designer is presenting something and the stakeholder goes apeshit. All over the place. I can do two things. I can sit there and watch my designer crash and burn, blame me on that person and then be safe because maybe the stakeholder loves me. Or I can step in to help to...

highlight the core things that the designer is selling or the core things that designer is good at and flip it the other way to, in that sense, to question the stakeholder or to put it in a different, reframe the way how the stakeholder is attacking or reframe the way how the stakeholder is conversing to the designer so the designer sees it in a different way.

Another example that I do a lot and I realize is after a meeting, let's say it goes really bad or I think it goes well, but then my designer feels like depressed, right? And I start talking to that person. And then that person starts telling that perspective of how they felt or how they received from that meeting. And I realized they're just looking at the problem. So then what I tend to do is I tend to explain because maybe I have a bit more context. I mean, as a manager, your job is to explain

kind of understand everything, understand people and all that. So I tend to reframe my designer's perspective of how they're seeing things. So I would maybe bring up things like, you know, this person went through something or this person is actually going through something in the organization, which is why this is happening. That's why maybe, you know, they're being hard on you or certain things, or because there's some backstory of a different product or technology piece that's affecting what you have designed that is not countering that, you know, and because you didn't know and they know they're coming at you that way.

But if I did my job better and I told you this, or maybe if we knew about that earlier, we would have been able to solve that and we won't be in this mess. So just trying to make sure that I think ahead, reframe the way how they receive, reframe how it's being spoken to them,

Yeah, that could be a way. Actually, I forgot your question, but... That's okay. I mean, I would summarize it by saying you literally just became the shit protector for your team member who almost crashed and burned during the meeting. And the fact that you also helped reframe things, it almost seems like you played a role of a mentor or a coach to them. Or even like a counselor, right? Because they feel a little sad or disappointed about themselves.

So yeah, I think that's very relevant advice in terms of helping your team deal with burnout. And you said you do it in a very light way. What do you mean by that? Do you joke with them or what do you do? No, I don't think I... I think it's maybe my personality. Like I don't... Somebody once said something like this, like, I can't tell whether you're serious or you're joking. And that's bad.

You know, when I want to be serious, nobody takes me seriously. When I'm joking, everybody takes me seriously. I mean, like, you know, what the heck? But I wouldn't say I put things across jokingly. I would say that being a designer created enough empathy for me to understand things in advance, be able to speak things in a different way. Every designer, I like to say every good designer. Okay.

Okay, once you're in the field, once you start working as a UX designer, you are going to generate empathy. You're going to learn things, you're going to understand things, you're going to see things. Whether or not you use it to fight people, stakeholders, or whether or not you use it to see things in a certain way to re-explain things or reframe things like what I'm talking about, you will learn that skill. And I think that really helped me to communicate better to my designers or even to my clients as well.

I really love the point when you said using empathy, like you can use empathy as a weapon or you can use empathy to build bridges. So that's really excellent advice. We have a question from earlier and it was Zu who asked, how did you become a product owner? And also to give some context, what do you do as a product owner in whatever role you're in? Okay, maybe I'll answer the first question first.

I was a UX lead at Jardine Lloyd Thomason. It now got bought over by Marsh. It's like a multi top three MNC brokerage or something, I can't remember. Yeah, it's like a conglomerate. Yeah, it's a conglomerate. They own a huge amount of things. And I was walking around the office one day and I saw this consultant working on a project. And I went to ask this consultant, like, what are you doing? And then he tells me, oh, we're building this new platform that solves A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

And then I looked at him and I'm like, I've been trying to push A, B, C, D, E, F, G for two years and nothing's happening. You know, what the heck?

And at that point, at that moment, I realized the power of consultants, you know. Somebody high up wants to make a change, they pay money, they come in and then they do everything. When people internally have been trying and slogging themselves, trying to push something small over the past how many years, you know. And that moment on, I was like, okay, you know, I'm going to start my own thing, I'm going to do my own thing. You know, I'm going to be a consultant and I'm going to tell companies what to do, you know.

And as I was doing that, there's a bit of funny story. I wanted to hire designers to start up this mini agency to start doing this. And in the end, I kind of got poached in that sense. I went to my company, Pebble Road, wanted to hire people there. Wanted to get to know the good people, then take them over. In the end, they sold me such a good story because they're doing the same thing that I'm doing. And then I got sucked into the company. Okay, so I joined them. So as a product owner in Pebble Road, right, I wouldn't say...

our role is actually a product owner. I would say one of the challenges that we've had is we changed our role three or four times since I joined the company. I came in as a design lead, then it became product something and then now it's there was like some UX lead and then now it's like product owner or whatever. If you look at the stuff that we've been doing,

I will like, okay, my colleagues might not like to explain it this way, but I always like to explain it this way. I look at it as product ownership.

Product doesn't mean a physical thing. Product could mean people. It could mean an organization. It could mean the thing that you're trying to solve. And ownership is talking about owning the problem and looking at ways, all kinds of ways. Doesn't matter if it's design. Doesn't matter if it's tech. Doesn't matter if it's outside of your domain. How do you solve this problem? Because problems are not just one singular piece at one place. They always spread. There's always root causes all over the place. And you have to identify that.

And I think as my job as a product owner, I mean, I know normal product owner roles totally different, technical product owners very different. But for me, as a product owner is to solve that problem. So I've been placed in situations where sure, I build design teams or I build them from scratch or I come in to build, help them to rebuild their whole entire core product or we're doing transformation workshops or we're doing consulting onto mission, vision and direction of where their company should be going.

That has nothing to do with product owner in the sense that role. So we're a design studio. We solve problems with design. And that's what it is. Ultimately, I'm still a designer. I've always been a designer since the start. Designers solve problems. One of the guys I mentor, he has this phrase that he always loves to say, a UX designer or designer's role is to make the world a better place. And that's our job.

If you guys ever get a chance, right, go read, what's it, Design as a Job by Mike Montero. He puts it in such a blunt, amazing, comical way about how important your role is as a designer. You're not just building screens. You're not just building a product. You're changing the way how things are being worked, how people are doing things. It's a very important role. If you do things wrong, you're going to screw up people's life. And it's something to think about.

Yeah, thank you for sharing. And it's also good to know that you're not in necessarily a traditional product manager or technical product owner kind of role. And it's interesting that you see product ownership as owning a specific problem. So yeah, it's definitely one of the key traits and it's important. I was just wondering, based on the work that you do,

And that's the saying over here, right? Product owner, one of the things they do is hurt cats in the organization. And you're a cat owner yourself. How does it feel like? Does it feel like hurting cats or how would you describe product ownership? Sometimes it feels like it's babysitting. It's not just hurting. But I think that's a bit negative. I really like the term mentoring. And I think over here at Pebble Road...

One of the things that we always mention is we want to inspire. That's something that differentiates us from our competitors. We're not just herding you to the right direction or mentoring you even. Although that is one of our core pieces, we're making sure that you're ready before we even leave. But we also want to inspire you. We want to make sure that whatever that we're doing, the ideas that we bring in, the way how we're doing things, it enacts you to go, hey, we can do this. And I think that's what it feels like for me, not for us at least.

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing. And we have one of the last questions tonight. And I think it's also from a new UXer, Meijin. And she's asking, what's one key advice to a person who is starting out in his or her career you would give to your new hire?

So usually right, when people ask me that, I'm going to ask them a few other questions to kind of understand which direction they're going to. Then the response will be much better or whatever. You know, it revolves around a few things, right? Like I mentioned before, your portfolio is key. It's a basic.

You have to showcase your skills, right? That's a given. Then the other thing I brought up is your personality. But how do you even show your personality when you have even started the interview, you know? So that's for later. The core thing in the middle is your drive.

I always have people coming up to me and saying like, oh, can you mentor me or can you help me with whatever, whatever, whatever. And I'm a kind of person that, okay, I'll just detour a bit, right? So when I started out, I didn't know that the whole UX community existed. I didn't know about, I think UXSG that time was only like one year old. And I didn't know, I didn't even know there was a,

a role called UX designer, I thought I coined it, you know, kind of thing when I started out. Because I came from a product design school. So, you know, everything is already in user-centric mindset. It's just that we're building physical products. Okay, but that aside, right? So because I came from that and I had to build everything myself, I expect a call for me is I think people learn better when they go and they learn by mistake. Okay, so one of the things that all these designers, they always ask me, you know, like, what do I do starting out and blah, blah, blah.

I say go and find your problem. Go and find your problem and go and solve it. You don't have a client, go find it. No client wants to take you, make it up. Go take the initiative to take something and explore how you can solve it. And that alone gives a different view how recruiters will see things or how different people will see things. And then post it, share it. I know so many people in the design field that maybe they don't have much experience, but all they do

is post problems that they are trying to solve and that brings them so much so much further than where i could have gone when back when i was wherever and it just shows that you're hungry and i think that's what especially in singapore it's such a not say a rare fine but there's not a lot of hungry hungry people than all the other designers around the world you know if you're hungry you will stand out

you will definitely stand out. It almost feels like, as you mentioned, this mindset of ownership, right? It almost feels like having this mindset of ownership. And yeah, it almost feels like product ownership is like a state of mind or being a successful...

UX designer is a state of mind. Agree or disagree? I will put it this way also, like I tried to give the three maturities of a designer, whatever that I forgot, right? At the end of it, it's always strategic, okay? Because you see things in a different light. Your goal as a designer in the end, let's just put it this way, you want to make the world a better place, you're going to build something to make the world a better place,

Your end game is what drives you. If you don't own that end game, if you don't own what you're going to do there, you're never going to solve that end problem because you're just going to be building a thing. I'm putting it bluntly, but that's what a generic product designer does. They just go and build that one thing. Design. I don't care about anything else. I just design. But when you own it, it means that you see what the outcome is going to be. You see the vision of where it's going to go.

That's where you look at things differently. And these people that are driving this, they own the problem. They see the problem and they really want to see how they can change it and look at a whole new perspective. And that's why they have totally new ideas, totally super long articles about one small, simple, I don't know, navigational structure that changed the whole way of how things will work. Because they own it. They learn it right. Ownership.

Yeah, I like that. And one thing I wanted to ask you as well in slightly different context, because you were sharing from the perspective of someone who's trying to get into the industry, let's say it's the first 90 days or it's the first hundred days, right? They call it the critical period as a new UX designer, right? This is,

perhaps your first UX design job, how would you help this person be successful in the organization? Or how should he or she think? So first one, I want to find out if that person is a

already knows what they want to do doesn't know what they want to do okay if that person doesn't know what they want to do I want them to explore in that first hundred days or 90 days I want them to see the organization I want them to understand what is going on and where would they like to go where would they like to focus on if there's somebody that already knows then I already kind of know an idea of where I want to put them and then I'll let them explore that area to go deeper so that first hundred days and 90 days is a

I don't know if it's the right way to say this, but I would say it's finding your identity in the organization, who you are as a designer. And also, I think your first job dictates where you go. It's very important. You have no idea how important your first job is. You go to a shitty place or you go to a place that teaches you wrong values or morals, you're going to carry on to the next place because that's what you learn and you bring it over and you think that's right.

So your first job is very key in how you develop as a designer. And that's why if somebody joins or previously when I'm with clients that I'm hiring, when they do come in, I want them to explore and I want to find a place for them and the right people with them so that they can grow. That's kind of like my key focus for that first 100 days. Giving them an identity, something that they can own.

That's excellent. I'm going to ask you for a parting quote, but let me first quote Mike Montero, which you actually mentioned earlier. In his book, he mentioned working with other talented designers makes you a better designer and is essential to your professional development, especially early in your career.

There's simply no better way to learn your craft than to watch someone else practice it. So it's echoing your advice, Preston. Did you have any parting quotes for some of the newer designers over here? I suck at quotes. Or maybe a philosophy that you might share that could be useful for their career. Never take something at face value.

As a designer, you never take research at face value. You always look at the evidence, you always look at the background to understand what has come to you. Same thing for your design life, same thing for even life in general. Something comes your way, something that somebody said, never take it face value. You're a designer, you've learned that, you learn how to read the evidence, you learn how to read the core issues, do that in your real life as well. It will push you further than where you would normally go if you don't do that.

And with that, that was great advice, Preston. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for joining us this evening and I wish you well and have a good day. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com.

I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.