The neglected power of siblings with Susan Dominus
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I say that people overemphasize the effect of parents in children's lives and success, and they probably underestimate the influence of siblings in each other's lives. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guest today is Susan Dominus, a staff writer at the New York Times Magazine. Her writing offers deep insight into the human psyche. I especially loved her feature on restorative justice as an alternative to punishment in schools, and her mind-boggling story about conjoined twins whose brains were connected by a neural bridge.

In her debut book, The Family Dynamic, Sue examines the lessons learned from families with multiple high-achieving children. She conducted extensive interviews and a thorough review of social science. And she has a strong message for parents. When parents feel like it's their job to make their kid harder working, grittier, tougher, you know, I just feel like that so rarely ends well. Sue is an unusually tenacious reporter. I know from experience. She wrote the profile that launched my first book.

And a dozen years later, I'm excited to turn the tables on her and do the interrogating myself. All right, Sue, I have to ask you, how did you get interested in Successful Siblings? I got interested in Successful Siblings because I went to summer camp once.

with a bunch of cousins who had parents who were quite famous, at least in New York. One was a famous playwright. One was a famous financier whose name is on, you know, a building at Harvard Law School now. Another, I mean, even more impressive, one of them had a mom

who, as we understood it, had something to do with the formation of MTV. Like there was absolutely nothing cooler in our day than that. This was the Wasserstein family. You know, perhaps the best known among that older generation of siblings was Wendy Wasserstein, the playwright. And I was always fascinated by their parents' generation. And I really wanted to know what was going on in their home that made each of those kids confident enough to...

to feel like they could do something that wasn't necessarily safe or conventional or had been done before. And I imagine that you were already a budding journalist at the time and started doing interviews and observations to get to the bottom of that. What did you learn? What I did learn was that they had a mom who was extremely interested in her children's success, was very hard-driving, and was always asking, you know, do better, do more. There was this implication that no matter what they did, it wasn't enough.

There's a real sense of Wasserstein pride. And although this isn't in the book, I will say that also their father was a real overcomer, you know, who's an immigrant who had come from nothing, very, very hardscrabble childhood and had really built a very successful fortune. So I think that that kind of sets a sense in kids maybe that, you know, anything is possible when they see that their own parent has done something so extraordinary.

Whenever I hear stories like this, my nature-nurture alarm bell starts ringing. You know, you have this hard-charging mom, but those kids probably inherited DNA that's hard-charging from their mom.

How do we think about separating, you know, what's genetic and what's learned? This is a central question you tackle in the book. And I would love to hear how you've begun to make sense of that. I can't believe you started out with like genetics. Nobody else has asked me anything about genetics. Nobody's at all curious. They're like, tell me about family mottos. And I was like, how do we separate nature from nurturing these families? I love it. Well, I mean, that's what I want to know. I know, me too. You know, it is...

It is, as you know, very hard to separate all of these things out. I mean, we know from twin studies that there are certain personality traits that do seem to have, you know, a genetic influence. It's not to say that there's like a gene, one gene for hardworking or one gene for really, really smart, but the totality of your genes might kind of point you in a certain direction. So let's talk about twin studies and adoption studies.

everybody's favorite way to try to tease apart nature and nurture effects.

One of my personal favorite findings is when you look at the big five personality traits. So we think about extroversion, emotional stability, conscientiousness, agreeableness, openness. If you take twins who are separated at birth, so they share 100% of their DNA, but then they're raised in different families, which is sad for them, but amazing for science. What you see is that they share about 50% of their traits, whereas...

If you take two unrelated kids who are adopted into the same family, their personalities are no more similar than if they'd been raised in different families. Yeah, in general, siblings, I mean, that's what people say. They're no more similar than two people who are raised on the street. And so then you get to this idea that, okay, well, what is the parenting effect? You know, people think it's very small. Obviously,

Obviously, there are many, many critics of twin studies and there are many defenders of twin studies. I don't think it is a perfect science because twin studies work by inference, right? Like you're not actually measuring something. So I think we're a long way from knowing. But what I always say is that I think parenting effects are much smaller than parents lead themselves to believe, especially when you're coming down to the kinds of parenting choices that parenting books are really obsessing about. You know,

do you use rewards or not? Do you co-sleep or not? I think that it's probably hard to find real effects of that that are going to make a huge difference in your child's life in terms of outcomes, right? Which is different from their moment-to-moment experience. Like,

Maybe your kid is going to be outgoing whether they sleep in your bed or not, but maybe your kid's going to feel delicious and happy sleeping in your bed with you and you're going to love it too. And that really matters in the moment. So I always think that outcomes is, you know, overinflated as an important result in a way when what we're really doing with our kids is living and loving with them moment to moment and wanting them to enjoy it and we're wanting to enjoy it.

That's such an interesting point. I've never really thought about it this way, that we shouldn't just be measuring parenting effects on the basis of who you become and what you achieve.

we should be thinking about parents as affecting their kids' day-to-day experiences. And life is an accretion of those little moments. And it's hard to say, like, I had a million moments of feeling safe with my mother. You know, does that necessarily, like, translate into agreeability? Like, not necessarily. I mean, it's also complicated because let's say you're genetically maybe a little bit less inclined to be agreeable. Maybe you have fewer of those bonding moments with your mom.

And you look back and you think, like, my mom was so unloving, you know. But, like, one of the things that I think people are starting to understand is, and actually Judith Harris, who critiqued a lot of birth order studies, she was somebody who really wanted people to understand that children elicit a certain kind of parenting as well. And I think that, you know, if you're a child, let's say, with ADHD and you are extremely ill,

Those feedback loops are real.

I did just read a brand new study that I wanted to get your reaction to, led by Jasmine Wurtz. It's a twin study of parenting and personality, and I think it's the most impressive of its kind that I've seen. You look at how mothers are interacting with their kids at ages 5 to 10, and then what their kids' personalities are like over time up to age 18.

And it turns out that if you compare two twins in the same family, the twin who gets more affection from their mom between 5 and 10 is more open, more conscientious, and more agreeable at 18. And this is fraternal twins or identical twins? Yeah, so it is identical twins. It's interesting that little extra affection, you know, to a small degree, is predictive of becoming a more agreeable, more conscientious, more open-minded adult, right?

And, yeah, curious to hear what you think of that. Yeah, I mean, it's actually kind of a terrifying study, right? Because I find great reassurance in the idea that, you know, these small decisions that you make on a day-to-day basis might not have such a powerful effect. But, you know, interestingly, genetic research is finding that it's possible we have underappreciated the parenting effect because...

Basically, there are things that parents do kind of because of their own genetic predisposition that then we assumed that those parents' children inherited those traits. But we're seeing now that sometimes even when those kids don't inherit that gene pattern or genealogy,

those gene variations, the kids exhibit the same behavior. Like this is at, you know, at the level of genetic analysis. So now researchers are starting to think that, yeah, maybe we have underappreciated the nurturing effect, the environmental effect of parenting, because we were over-assuming an actual genetic inheritance of those qualities when in fact, maybe it really was environmental.

Really interesting. So in this particular study, they do try to look at reverse causality and whether kids are eliciting different kinds of parenting patterns. They show, as you suspected, that kids who had more behavioral and emotional problems in ages 5 to 10 or in that range, basically when they were young, when they had more problems, they got less affectionate parenting.

However, if you control for their early behavioral and emotional problems, you still see that for whatever reason, getting more affection early on predicted those personality tendencies later. Both stories probably have some support behind them. Yeah. It's a small correlation though to your earlier point. And so-

I think it sort of reinforces in some ways the thesis of your book, which is parenting is not irrelevant, but it's also not the sine qua non of a child's life. And I found this really liberating when I read your book. I came away thinking, okay, as long as you're not abusive or neglectful, a lot of the choices you make in terms of how your kids turn out are not as consequential as you think.

I mean, I do find that liberating as well. I do think the responsibility of how your child feels in the moment is also huge. But I think this idea that parents are burdened with, which is that if their child does not succeed in some socially conventional way, that they have not done their job. You know, obviously I wrote a book about high-achieving families. I was interested in that. But, you know, is it a parent's job to measure their child's, like, utility and successfulness in life? Like, even that is kind of problematic. And I mean...

Why did I choose the families I wrote about? There's all kinds of success. You know, I was interested in parents who wanted their children to feel that they could do anything that they wanted, that the sky was kind of the limit, that they could be bold, that they could make a difference, that they could, you know, escape their circumstances.

But I didn't find that those parents made the kids feel that they had to do those things either. To me, what was interesting is how do you create that kind of environment and how do you create a sense in a child that they think they can do whatever they want to do? I really got a kick out of that, that on the one hand, you're taking on this big question of what does it take for parents to raise not just one superstar, but multiple superstars. And on the other hand, saying, hey, wait a minute.

Children are not status symbols for parents. Don't define your own success by what your kids achieve. Yeah, no, the idea that so many parents feel like it's their job to instill grit and conscientiousness in their children, I just feel like that so rarely ends well. You know, we live in an age of anxiety, but at the same time, I talk in the book about how I really admire this one family, the Paulus family, and how they're so

And the home environment was incredibly warm and nurturing. And they kind of outsourced all of the training and discipline. They lived in New York City, so they had tremendous resources. Their daughters went to very rigorous ballet schools that were, you know, not easy and could be quite challenging and were very critical. And they learned skills there, like better to learn those skills from a coach or a teacher or a mentor. I don't know that the home is the best place for that stuff.

Oh, that's interesting. I think especially as kids get older, that becomes important because they start to discount advice from their parents and resist pressure from their parents. Right. And it can become in some ways a self-negating prophecy. Lisa DeMoore calls it the...

the kiss of death advice from a parent, you know? It's like, if it comes from the parent, it will never happen because I actually do think, not always, but there are definitely instances in which young people are more receptive to advice from an older sibling or maybe even a twin or even a younger sibling than they are from a parent. And,

You know, siblings also see each other a little bit more clearly, I think, than their parents sometimes do. They also see how they operate in their peer group when adult eyes are not on them. They are of their generation, so they can have vision for them that their parents might not have because their parents' vision doesn't see that far into the future. So I was really surprised when I started this book.

I started the book thinking I was really going to find just these parents who had all sorts of sayings and rituals and, you know, I don't know, task charts. I don't know what I expected to find. And instead, I really found at a lot of turns in the lives of these siblings, they're

They could not all have been as successful as they were, were it not for each other's advice, introductions, coaxing, encouragement, support, that kind of thing. Role modeling. Role modeling, yeah. Or even just like path clearing, you know.

You're not going to have an older parent who gets to the University of Kansas, a huge state school before you do, and like shows you around for weeks and weeks and introduces you and gets you into the fraternity. Like, no, but your brother can do that for you or your sister can do that for you. And I think at these big schools or even small schools, it really can be incredibly meaningful to have an older sibling there. Well, let's talk about the influence of siblings on each other in more depth. What was the study or body of research that most blew your mind on that?

Okay, so Emma Zhang, who's a sociologist at Yale, did this fascinating study. You know, it's hard to study siblings. Why? Because they have a lot of genetic overlap. So, you know, we know that when an older sibling does better in school, often there's what's called a sibling spillover effect. The younger one does better too, but it's really hard to separate out whether that younger child is just genetically similar or what's going on. So she took advantage of a natural experiment, which are school start dates.

There's a lot of research that shows that kids who are old for their grade do better in school, you know, at least while they're in school than kids who are young for their grade, especially in disadvantaged backgrounds. That seems to be a real boost. And so she looked at a relatively disadvantaged community and found that when a child, because of when that child's birthday fell, arbitrarily was a little bit older than other kids in the grade, that kid did better in school.

And then she looked at what happened with the younger siblings of those students. And what she found was that the younger siblings, regardless of whether they were old for their grade or young for their grade, they also started to do better in school. So what you see there is that there really is a strong sibling spillover effect that, you know, we don't know the mechanism necessarily. Like, how is it that one student's grades improving improves the other one's grades?

But it's a really great way to know that, like, okay, we can see that they're really clearly one older sibling success is indeed raising the bar for the younger sibling. And it's just a great study. It's so pure. It's so well designed. And we talk about how a sort of mating perpetuates economic discrepancies in class and in finances. And we talk about how parents like intergenerational wealth that also affects it. But she believes that siblings, in a way, are responsible for the perpetuation of inequalities. Yeah.

That's fascinating. I think another domain where we see that often is in sports. I'm thinking of a study that Frank Soloway led of every group of brothers that ever played Major League Baseball.

And by some measures, the younger siblings are better than the older siblings. They're more likely to steal bases, for example. And we think it's in part because they're more willing to take risks and in part because they're faster because they always had an older brother who was better than them. And to your point, that seems to raise the bar.

But, you know, there's also other research that shows that oldest siblings are the most academic and also have the highest IQs. And I know that you talk about the effect of teaching and how that solidifies knowledge. But there is also research that finds that even by age one, the oldest child has stronger cognitive skills than their younger siblings when those younger siblings reach the age of one.

We don't think it's a prenatal effect or anything like that. I think most people think that parents really do just lavish more attention on the firstborn. By the way, also scary, right? Like in terms of parenting, like it really does make a difference how much attention you lavish on your child. Like I think we can pretty much in that first crucial year, we can definitely conclude that. Parents of twins, I feel for you as one of them. So, okay, so your oldest sibling is the strongest academically. Like what are you going to do? You're going to throw yourself into sports basically, right?

That's an individuation kind of phenomenon. In evolutionary terms, it's niche picking, right? The academic high achiever niche is filled, and so I'm going to find a different niche to stand out.

Yeah, and it's illustrated beautifully in the first chapter of the book by the Groff family. I mean, it was almost as if Sarah True, who now is studying psychology at the graduate level and who was an Olympic triathlete and had been this Ironman champion, it was almost as if she was familiar with the research. I mean, she was telling me that her older siblings were extraordinary students.

And she chose to throw herself into athletics and sport because she knew, as she put it, they wouldn't touch it, that it was safe for her. Lauren Groff, who's this award-winning novelist and incredible, beautiful writer, also happens to be a tremendous, tremendous athlete. And, you know, it's conceivable that if she had pursued a sport with the same intensity that her sister did, that she too could have really gone quite far. But that wasn't what she wanted to do, and Sarah knew it. So she went for it.

Okay, come back to this IQ difference already being visible at age one. I don't think that negates the tutor effect. Really? You know, that starts to emerge later. Oh, so maybe it's a one-two punch is what you're talking about. Maybe. Yeah. And it may be a cumulative advantage then that as the oldest child, you get more attention from your parents early. And then if you have siblings, you get to teach them and learn more through kind of being their mentor and tutor.

So that makes actual perfect sense. I mean, what I was starting to say earlier, I was referencing this economist, Joseph Hoetz, who talks about how parents not only, okay, maybe they lavish more attention on the firstborn, but they also have more rules and they have higher expectations and they enforce things like no television and you must study for two hours a night. And his theory is that it comes from an economic kind of analysis, which is

If there is going to be a triple effect, it's most efficient to make the oldest child as successful and high achieving as that child possibly can be because there's so many children after them whom it will influence. By the time you're the fourth child, there's nobody at you. If they're not going to have a fifth child, there's nobody for you to influence. So why bother? You know, it's very interesting theory. It's really hard to imagine parents being this calculative and thinking, well, you know, if I'm going to have three or four kids,

It makes the most economic sense to invest my energy in child one who can then spill over some of that learning to child two and three. I would hazard to guess that he would say it's happening at some subconscious level that they're not even aware of. Possibly, but...

I don't know. It's interesting to me. I just, you know, I think Occam's razor would point in the direction of really interesting finding. Most parsimonious explanation is parents have more time and energy available when they have an only child. Agreed. I think that's probably right. Although it keeps going even after the kids are, you know, even after they have more than one child, they're still enforcing more homework rules and things like that with the oldest child. Yeah. And again, why is that happening? My hunch would be, and I'm very curious to hear your take, but...

having lived it, the oldest is the first one to confront every new rule. And then the second and third children, they can sort of poke holes in the boundary a little bit and get a little bit more flexibility and you lower your standards a little bit as a parent.

I think that that does seem like it makes the most sense. And the more children you have, the busier you are. And as you say, it's, well, you have different expectations, partly based on your, maybe your preconceptions of birth order. Anyway, there's a lot of very large data set based research that suggests that birth order effects are largely imaginary and something that families kind of impose. It's a way of telling a story, but it's rarely upheld in very big studies these days.

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Well, I have fraternal twins, as you may know. They're teenagers now, right? They're in college, yeah. Certainly the twin studies research did make me feel like, you know, a little bit more relaxed about whatever I felt responsible for and also suspect of whatever I wanted to praise myself for in terms of what was going on with my children. I do think that I talk about this a little bit in the book.

There's a researcher at Yale named Julia Leonard who does a lot of work on how quickly parents jump in to help their kids when they're struggling. For example, if they're just working on a puzzle or something like that. And the research also finds that it's just incredibly demotivating for kids when their parents do jump in. Her research also finds that in things like even just getting dressed in the morning, parents underestimate how capable their children are. And I...

I think that I probably was too quick to jump in. I wish I had, you know, hung back a little bit, been a little bit less nervous, let my kids figure it out on their own. I had a lot of admiration for the Groff family and the way that they would, you know, even do small things like Janine Groff would put the plastic cups and plates for her kids on

on the lower level of the cabinet, you know, like at floor level, basically, so that they could help themselves. And it was very empowering. So that's, I think that's, that's probably the main way that I was trying to keep an eye on my own parenting as I was going through it.

Okay, so the main way it changed you is you now regret not letting your kids learn to do things themselves. Well, I think I was learning things on the go. I think also, you know, it's hard to change yourself, first of all. Like, let's be honest about that. There's a great quote from, do you know Dan Belsky, the epidemiologist? Have you ever worked with him? We were just making conversation and we were talking about this idea that parents, is it even...

is it even appropriate to want to change your child's personality, right? Do you want to make your child grittier, let's say? Is that the job of a parent, to change your child's personality? Here's a big one. As you know from your work on introversion, a lot of parents want their kid to be more extroverted than their child naturally is. Like, that's a tough one, right? And he said to me, listen, if I gave you parenting advice about how to change your child, then you'd have to change yourself in order to adopt that parenting advice. And if you think changing your child is hard, try changing yourself.

I think we live in a time where people are constantly blaming their parents for the ways they didn't turn out. And I wonder if you think that people are placing blame too much on their parents.

It's hard to separate out the rise of Freud in a way from the moment of 60s and 70s when people started overturning authority in general, right? Like they both sort of point to the same thing, which is, you know, mom, dad, bad, and authority also bad. It's kind of part of a bigger cultural moment that we have inherited and are still dealing with. I do wonder if it's something specific to Reinhardt.

Gen X generation, because I do think that there's research that suggests that young people today are closer to their parents and it's a more warm relationship. So I think it's almost as if like Gen Xers, our expectations were raised by therapy enough just to know kind of what a healthy relationship should look like. But our parents didn't necessarily get the memo that

And so I think there is reason probably for a lot of people to be disappointed. I mean, a lot of my friends, when we talk about whatever was happening in our own home, will say, consistent with the parenting standards of the time, which have really changed. I want to just ask you for a second about the comparisons that were illuminating and less illuminating as you were researching the book.

I think it's really tempting to just go and study the positive exemplars, like these families where multiple siblings did great things. But we don't want to select on the dependent variable. We want to make sure, obviously, that whatever these families have in common is actually different from the ones where kids didn't succeed.

What did you learn from contrasting these families with all these successful kids with the ones where only one sibling made it or none did? Okay. Well, first of all, I talk a lot in my book about luck, and I think you can't discount that. And, you know, sometimes when parents have three kids who all hit it out of the park—

It is because of a combination of luck of the genetic lottery, which is a real thing. It could also just be luck that none of those kids had a predisposition to substance abuse or a predisposition to ADHD. Of course, there are plenty of wildly successful people with ADHD, but it can make school a little bit harder. So it's a combination of just what was the genetic

roll of the dice like? And then also, what were the circumstances that happened in those children's lives? Maybe each of them also was the beneficiary of luck. I think very successful people often can point to lucky moments in their lives that were really, really fateful. But I do think that there was a real spirit of optimism and positivity in a lot of the families that I wrote about, not to be too corny, but fictitious.

It wasn't just that the parents themselves were optimistic, but they actually articulated these things or the kids felt it so deeply. Like Marilyn Holifield, who was the first Black female partner at a major law firm in Florida and was one of three kids who desegregated her high school in Tallahassee, whose parents were quite extraordinary. She said the unspoken motto in her household was all things possible.

And in the Mergia family, four of their seven children were wildly successful. Their mother used to say, with God's help, all things are possible. You know, really similar kinds of things. And, you know, that really struck me. I always joke that the only saying I remember my father saying consistently was, if something seems too good to be true, it usually is. And lo and behold, you know, here I am a journalist, right? There's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Did you take away anything that you would do more of after reading the book that you thought about?

As a parent? I've never wanted to be one of those psychologists who screws up our kids. And so I'm reluctant to be overly systematic and analytical about saying, here's what all the evidence says and what I should do with it. Your point that parents' behaviors sometimes don't matter as much as we think and siblings actually affect each other a lot, that's probably my biggest takeaway from the book. And it has gotten me thinking differently about

Like when I'm tempted to try to give our kids some advice or feedback, instead to say, okay, how can I sort of plant the seed for one of our kids to then deliver this message to another? And then I start to second guess that. But let me make this more concrete with an example. So I was being really careful to talk about college just with our oldest and not let our other two be around.

And your book got me thinking about how actually the oldest child sets the standard but also provides all this insight. So why not make this a family conversation and start talking about, like, why is college important to us?

what do we think matters in a college? Our kids have really enjoyed thinking about it and imagining their future selves on a campus. So thank you for that. Oh, I'm really glad to hear that. I think what I came away feeling was, and it's the expectations research that really made me feel this way. You have to know your kid. You have to know your kid and know what your child is capable of.

Because we know that if you set the expectations too high, it can actually be counterproductive, right? You want to set them like just high enough that it actually is going to have an effect, that they feel like you believe in them and that you know they can do their best work, but not so high that it becomes pressure. As we've said, this is like generation anxiety. And how do we make sure that we're not creating unrealistic expectations? I think parents sometimes look at their kids, you know,

When my kids were born, one of them had a heartbeat that went like boom chicka, boom chicka. And the other one's heartbeat seemed to me to go like rocket chicka, rocket chicka. I can't explain it. They were like different. And the pediatrician, I said to her, I don't understand their heartbeats actually sound different. And she said, that's because they're different humans.

And I think that parents sometimes think, I raised my kids just the same way. I read them the same books. The first one's getting A's and the second one should be getting nothing but A's also. They're my children. You know, they have the same exposure. They have the same expectations. And it's really not fair. Like the kids need to be evaluated as individuals. And you can't

just by setting an expectation, elicit precisely the behavior that you want from your child. Expectations are nice. They're guidelines. They give a kid the framework to move in. But you can't expect that just by setting those expectations, you're going to make it happen. I think that's well taken.

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Okay, it's time for a lightning round. Tell me what you think is the worst parenting advice that people give or get. If you don't punish your child, they'll never learn. Like, I think punishment is equal to shame, and I think there's nothing worse for children than shame. What about the best advice on parenting that you heard from any of the families you studied?

Just don't break them. That was said by a woman who had four extraordinarily high-achieving kids. And I remember asking her, you know, what did you do exactly? And she said, I just didn't break them. And what she meant by that was I had bright, interesting, talented kids, and I didn't feel like that was my opportunity to then push them to the max.

and, you know, run them ragged with tutoring and Mandarin lessons and fencing and expectations. She just let them be kids and they did what they had to do. What's something you've changed your mind about?

You know, at some point over the course of my research, I found that very academic kids, the ones who end up sort of thriving the most are the ones who've had like the most challenges put in front of them. And I felt like this huge responsibility to make sure that my bright kids had like all of the enrichment that would maximize their potential. And now that they're off at college and they're

You know, I think partly because the world is such a hot mess, I've sort of reverted back to the way my own parents parented, which was like, you know what? Over the summer, go have fun. Go be outside. Go swim in a lake. Go see something beautiful. I just think life is too short, and I really do want my kids to just experience joy. I think I have become less achievement-oriented and more desirous that they love their lives and experience the best of what the world has to offer.

And what's the question you have for me? I talk about this a little bit in the book about how, you know, I'm suspect of this idea of trying to make your kid more extroverted. But there is some good research that people who are forced to be more extroverted are happier. There's also some research that finds that people who are forced to be extroverted sort of have their energy depleted and that you're like such an expert on this. Where do you ultimately stand on that?

I think forced is a bad idea. I think encouraged, like we all need to expand our range when it comes to like the capacity to play different roles. And just as I think an extrovert needs to learn how to be introverted sometimes to study quietly, to read, an introvert needs to learn how to occasionally, you know, put on a show.

And I think that with practice, what we know is that that becomes less uncomfortable and starts to feel a little bit more, as Brian Littlewood put it, second nature.

But I don't like the idea, Sue, of saying, like, I'm an introvert and I want to become an extrovert. No, what I want to do is I want to try on a more extroverted version of myself and figure out if that's a mode that I can get a little bit more comfortable with. And so much of what we do is about tinkering around the edges. That's the best we can hope for is you tinker around the edges in just the right proportions that you're doing the best you can for your kids and you're not overdoing it, which could then have like a boomerang effect. Yeah.

Well, this was such a fun and thought-provoking conversation. And as always, I'm so impressed with the depth and breadth of your knowledge. Thank you so much, Adam.

Sue made me rethink something that I've been telling parents for years. I have said your success as a parent is not determined by whether your kids get into elite schools or prestigious professions. I still stand by that. But I've also said that the real test of parenting is not what kids achieve, but who they become and how they treat others. And I'm now questioning that.

Because we don't know how much of a difference parents really make when it comes to children's character. What we do know is that parents shape the quality of experiences that kids have and how they remember their upbringing. And I think that's where we definitely make a difference as parents. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standards.

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