Frontline special - correspondent Maxim Tucker
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. I'm Alex Dibble, and I executive produce the podcast. The World in 10 is partnered with Frontline, the interview series from Times Radio, available on YouTube, with expert analysis of the world's conflicts. At the weekend, we bring you Frontline interviews in full. Here's one from this week. I hope you find it interesting.

Hello and welcome to Frontline for Times Radio with me Kate Chabot and this time we're joined by Maxim Tucker. Maxim is the Times' Ukraine correspondent. He's been reporting from the front lines in Ukraine since 2022. Maxim, you're joining us from Kiev today. I'm just really interested to know how the news is going down that Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin have had an hour and a half phone conversation and agreed to immediately start negotiations over ending the war in Ukraine.

So the Ukrainians are obviously very concerned that this is kind of welcoming Putin back onto the international stage. This isolation that he's been in throughout the period of the war with no kind of major international meetings is coming to an end.

And a lot of people here think that that's naive by Trump, because Putin has expressed no real meaningful interest in coming to the peace table, but on terms that are suitable to Russia, which amount to essentially the capitulation of Ukraine. Meanwhile, talking to his domestic audience, he is saying that he does not recognize Ukraine as a sovereign state. He continues to repeat that.

So I think Ukrainians, they welcome the idea of peace talks. They're tired. They want some kind of resolution to this conflict.

But they don't think it's going to be achieved simply by Trump meeting Putin. Putin is just not going to come to these, make peace arrangements out of his own goodwill. Trump needs to put pressure on him. And the Ukrainians have yet to see Trump talk about beyond kind of additional sanctions, what kind of military support Ukraine can rely on in order to enter these negotiations from a position of strength.

Yes. And the tone about this announcement of this clone call was also quite interesting, wasn't it? Because Donald Trump spoke to the aggressor before he spoke to Trump.

Zelensky. And he then said, I will keep him up for something along the lines of, you know, I'll let him know what we talked about, that we had this talk. And quite a slap in the face also to the Ukrainian president that the defense secretary, the U.S. defense secretary has also said no to U.S. troops to enforce any peace, no to NATO membership, and unrealistic to think of a return to the pre-2014 borders. So although they're talking about the negotiations, they're already ruling out certain talking points.

Right, absolutely. And if someone who talks about the art of the deal being so important, it's strange to reveal your hand, your bargaining hand, before you enter negotiations. If you're really interested in helping Ukraine, you don't rule out all of the things that Putin might be afraid of.

So, you know, Ukrainians are worried by that. They have, President Zelensky has said repeatedly that any discussions about the future of Ukraine must include Ukraine. He doesn't like that Putin is talking to Trump directly. And we don't really know what was said in those meetings. You know, we get quite meaningless platitudes from Trump after it. But, you know, Ukrainians need to be part of this. They are not going to agree to a complete capitulation that Putin wants. And, you know, just talking directly to Putin

It's very naive. We've seen time and time again that Putin cannot be trusted, the Russians cannot be trusted on these peace talks. There have already been several ceasefire agreements since 2014 that Russia has violated. And as long as Putin has this ambition to make Ukraine into a kind of client state of Russia...

then the Ukrainians are not going to be able to accept it because that means for them, you know, essentially occupation. A lot of people on lists being rounded up, arrested, carried away and potentially tortured and executed, as has happened in plenty of occupied areas. So this is a matter of life or death for them. And they're not going to simply accept whatever Putin tells Trump.

And where you are in the last 24, 48 hours, Kiev has been bombarded by ballistic missiles and other areas of Ukraine have also been heavily targeted. What was it like the experience where you were?

Well, it was a particularly loud night and it was a very long, unusually long attack. Explosions going off very close to where we are every few minutes in the early hours of the morning. And it is quite an extraordinary thing when you wake up in a city and absolutely everyone is exhausted. The entire city en masse is exhausted and there's this kind of collective... There's a sort of solidarity in it. Everyone understands that everyone had a difficult night. A lot of people...

The explosions were so close that they did go to the basements. That doesn't always happen now during air raids, but people were really, really scared by it. There were ballistic missiles, there were Shahed drones. And obviously, Putin's intent to target Kiev continues. So, you know, ahead of any kind of peace talks, there is no kind of suggestion of goodwill going into them. And how long does it last for?

It was several hours. I tried to sleep through it as much as possible to get some kind of rest. I mean, it's very difficult when you go travelling large portions of the country and explosions are a pretty common thing here when you're working in this situation. But it was certainly several hours in the early hours of the morning.

Well, good to see that you're all right, Maxim. And since we spoke to you last week, you've released a report on your exclusive access to the British donated Challenger 2 tanks near the Russian border. Can you tell us about who you met and what they told you?

Yes, I met the paratroopers of the 82nd Air Assault Brigade. This is probably the strongest brigade in Ukraine's armed forces. They are equipped with Challenger 2s, but they also have US striker vehicles. They have these powerful US Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and they have German Marders as well. So they're considered to be one of the best equipped paratroopers.

They've also, a lot of them have trained in Britain, so they're quite well trained. They've got a lot of combat experience since the counteroffensive. They've got good officers and they're highly motivated. And what the guys are telling me is that they really love these tanks because they provide really strong protection compared to the old Soviet tanks that they used to drive.

which if it gets struck in a kind of weak point by an FPV drone, the entire turret blows off because they can easily target the ammunition which is held underneath the turret. Now, there have been two Challenger tanks lost out of the 14 that were given to Ukraine, but they said that those are only because they were very large Lancet drones. It's a specific type of suicide drone that's bigger that managed to impact in a certain spot.

and unfortunately kill the crew in those situations. But they are saying that these tanks are incredibly powerful, have a really great, very accurate cannon, which they compared to kind of a sniper rifle being able to take out Russian tanks from a very great distance. You said that the two that had been destroyed or taken off the battlefield were destroyed by Lancet missiles. How well protected are the Challenger 2s? What do they tell you about that and how safe they felt inside them?

They said they've got incredibly thick armour. They don't really worry about kind of autocannons from enemy infantry fighting vehicles. They even, the crew that I spoke to had taken a direct hit from a Russian rocket fired by a helicopter on the first days of the Kursk invasion. And they said the tank just shrugged it off. You know, there was a very good compression system inside the tank. They didn't even get concussed as a result of it. The only injuries were to the commander because the optics inside the tank that they looked

used to look outside the tank had splintered and had injured him in that way. So they felt like they were very safe. They're absolutely enormous machines. They're twice the profile of a kind of Soviet tank. And the company commander said that was a bit of a downside. In some instances, that makes them heavy, less maneuverable, but also it makes it a bigger target. It's easier to strike.

And I mean, as you said, with two having been taken off the battlefield and there being 12 remaining now, they must be extremely precious. Can you tell me about how they're using them when and where they're choosing to use them?

So they try and use them to control specific areas on the battlefield or to rapidly react to any kind of attack that looks like it's going to threaten the Ukrainian position across the border in Kursk. So these tanks are stationed in Sumy, and it's a relatively quick drive across the border to engage the Russians.

In some positions, they have been hiding in tree lines, waiting for Russian columns. If they know that there is an attack coming, they've had some kind of early advance warning from intelligence that they can get into position and wait. And because they've got this long range capability, very accurate long range capability, they're able to ambush Russian columns. They've been using them quite frequently like that.

Maxim, you were able to obtain some footage from the 82nd Air Assault Brigade to show and demonstrate what they can do and have been doing with the Challenger 2 on the battlefield. What did they tell you about how much of a difference Challenger 2s are making? So they said they give them a huge advantage, you know, but when they're in a position that's a long range and they're waiting for the Russians in ambush...

they're able to fire with great accuracy at a distance further than the Russian tanks can manage. It's very difficult for the Russian tanks to locate them and return fire, and even if they do, they've got this thick armour to protect them. They did say that the manoeuvrability is an issue, so if it's a close quarters fight with a Russian tank, they might have an issue because...

the challenger finds it more difficult to get around the battleground quickly. But in these kind of prepared ambush positions, they're absolutely lethal and they've wreaked incredible damage on Russian columns that are coming through attacking the Ukrainians. And the crews that you mentioned earlier, they were trained in the UK. What do they tell you about their time there and the ongoing support that they're receiving from their British trainers, albeit from the UK perhaps?

They were really enthusiastic about the guys that had trained them. They said there was a great British humour that they'd enjoyed and a great sense of camaraderie. They'd been training really hard. They were training on simulators before they were training on the tanks themselves. They only had a couple of days off in two months.

You know, they took the British instructors to see a tank museum and they went to a church service together, which they really enjoyed. And they said they stay in touch with their instructors. They still have actually a WhatsApp group where they ask for advice on repairs, particularly how to use a tank in certain situations and certain scenarios. So that's a kind of ongoing process.

And you see this quite often now in Ukraine, that there is a constant communication between members of the armed forces who have trained these guys in Ukraine, who are still supporting actually Ukrainians. And there's a great bond between all of the Ukrainians who've been trained abroad and their instructors that continues to this day. It's fascinating. You say that it's really interesting that they're in contact about things like repairs and things like that. How much of a challenge is the maintenance proving to the troops that you met? Yeah.

I think they said they wanted a lot more spare parts. That's the kind of difficult thing. They've added some additional armor to the weak points on the Challenger that can be targeted by drones. That makes it heavier, so it comes with additional problems. They're keen for kind of upgrades to the Challenger 2s. They're really keen for more ammunition to target infantry. They said they've got quite a good amount of armor-piercing rounds, but actually they need to target infantry. The Russians are increasingly having lost so many armored vehicles and increasingly sending infantry forward.

And the challenges want these kind of high explosive rounds that can target infantry. And they also said, yeah, of course, it's great that we have, we had these 14 and now we have 12. But this is a really great tank and we'd really like more of them. We need 100 tanks is really what we need. And this is something you'll hear again and again, you know, when the Ukrainians,

they enjoy a piece of kit that they have and they're using they've they showed that they can use it to great effect you know they can be trusted to use these machines and you know why doesn't the west send them more and what's the west expecting to do with them and one of the the questions i think for all western governments in the scenarios

In, you know, the pace of this war is progressing so quickly, you know, we're already seeing, we discussed last time, land robots on the battlefield. That is autonomous kind of vehicles are going to be the future of this warfare. And so like having a big tank like the Challenger in five, 10 years, that kind of vehicle is out of date. Why not give it to the Ukrainians now and use it to hurt the Russians while it still does, while it still can?

Maxim, last week we marked the sixth month anniversary, well, six months since the start of the Kursk Offensive. What did you learn about how important that's proving to hold every inch of ground, specifically at this moment?

So the Ukrainians, we've also been in the Donbass last week, and the Ukrainians there now say we are beginning to feel the difference, you know, like a significant amount of troops have been redirected to the Kursk operation to try and drive the Ukrainians out of Russia. So those troops in the Donbass are starting to feel that there is not such an intense amount of pressure. Obviously, the fighting is still significant there, but it's having an effect. Yeah.

It's dynamic. The warfare there, actually, the soldier said, is very different. There's a lot more maneuver warfare. There's a lot more tanks and armored vehicles. It's less infantry dug into positions. And it's more the onus is on the Russians to really drive the Ukrainians out. And Putin is so desperate to get the Ukrainians out of Kursk that he is sacrificing an awful lot of men in kind of attacks that are unlikely to be successful.

So the Ukrainians say they are destroying an incredible amount of manpower and equipment. They talked about wiping out half of the North Korean force that had been sent to Kursk, about 5,000 men. And that's a really significant amount in about a month of fighting. And also particularly important, given that Zelensky also entertained the idea of exchanging land in Kursk for the return of Russian occupied territory in any peace deal.

Right. I mean, that's something the Russians have ruled out. They said that we will not exchange any part of land. And again, that speaks to kind of Putin's determination to get, you know, just see peace on his terms. He's not going to negotiate, I don't think, significantly, meaningfully. But that's something that Ukrainians have been holding on to. They want Kursk to be part of any peace negotiation. They know that if they can hold it,

that that is a bargaining chip for them in an otherwise not very strong hand. And they can see that Putin is really struggling to get them out. And it's also, you know, very much undermines his regime that he can't guarantee the security of Russia's borders. That's a big problem for him domestically and internally.

You told me you've been in the Donbass. Can you tell me exactly, as close as you can to where you went exactly and what you found out? Yeah, we were near Pokrovsk, which is the scene of the heaviest fighting now. The Russians are trying to flank that city. It seems like they've abandoned...

kind of the previous strategy of taking on a city head on and just kind of obliterating it. I think they've realized at this point they've obliterated so many cities in the Donbass that they need to take one intact in order to have some kind of logistical hub if they want to go further, if they want to establish occupation there. They actually need to have some buildings intact. So they're trying to cut off

the supply road into Pokrovsk, which would bring actually the Russians very close to the border of Dnipropetrovsk oblast, which is another oblast that, you know,

Russia could challenge and to try and make a claim to if they get far enough. And the Ukrainian troops that I spoke to are there trying to hold them back, trying to drive the Russians back from positions they'd taken. They also talked about how some of these Western trained brigades had lost ground. Now, these are not Western trained brigades like the 82nd. This is the 150 series of Western trained brigades. And the idea was to take large amounts of soldiers,

to a Western country and train them en masse, particularly in France. Excuse me. And what has happened there is that they were not, these newly mobilized men were not paired with experienced units, experienced officers. And, you know, they were given great machinery, great equipment, but as soon as they faced a very serious assault, they would cut and run. And the experienced Ukrainian brigades that I'd spoken to would then have to go and retake those positions. And they were very frustrated that they,

mobilized men were being sent to new brigades instead of sent in to replenish experienced brigades with experienced officers and experienced NCOs. And did you get a sense of how big this problem is? Because you would think that there would be an adaptation to actually change that if it's not working.

So there has been a kind of outcry against it and Sierski has promised to kind of change it. Zelensky has also said they will stop sending mobilized men to newly formed brigades. They will stop forming new brigades, in fact, and they will try and replenish the troops in the old brigades. So they are responding to it, but it's taking time to do that. And meanwhile, on the battlefield, there's consequences for the experienced brigades who have to come in and take lost ground. And that causes them casualties, of course. Yeah.

And the experience brigades that you spoke to, how long had they been deployed?

So these are guys who've been fighting not only for three years, but a lot of them for 10 years already, like during the war in Donbass, you know, we'd spoke to the Da Vinci battalion, which is a volunteer unit that's become part of Ukraine's regular army. They're incredibly experienced fighters. And they said that, you know, even if you had relative, some officers who had experience in 2022, if you then take them away from the situation and train them, they come back in 2025 and it's already a different battlefield. The things that you need to learn are very different.

And they also said that Western training is great, but it needs to be mixed with training from our own officers, our own experienced sergeants who can tell you what the battlefield is like now and how it's changed because the Western trainers...

actually very often learning from the Ukrainians about their experiences because the battlefield that they have faced in Iraq or Afghanistan is incredibly different from the battlefield that the Ukrainians face today in fighting the Russians. And when you were there, I don't know how much time you were able to spend in that area around Pokrovsk. I mean, did you get a sense of who had the initiative, whether it was the Russians or the Ukrainians and how it was actually going at that particular time?

I mean, the Russians definitely have the initiative. They're pushing forward. They're taking these positions. And then it's up to these brigades to try and take those positions back and hold them. There are some reinforcements coming in. They talked about some reinforcements coming to this area. I won't mention who, but they felt that that was going to help the more experienced brigades were coming in to try and hold the line. And there was going to be some efforts to try and make sure they keep this supply road into Prokhorovsk open, which is really, really critical for the Ukrainians now.

You're speaking to us, Maxim, from Kiev, and it's a really politically explosive week for Ukraine with all the different meetings that are taking place where its future will be discussed and any peace talks. I heard speaking on the radio, the former head of MI6, Alex Younger, saying that what's really, really important at the moment in terms of

making sure whatever happens with any peace negotiations is that Ukraine's sovereignty is preserved because that is what President Putin does not want. He wants Ukraine to cease to exist as a country and that that is what is important, not only for Ukraine's security, but for the future European security as well.

Do you get a real sense of that where you are? And do you get a sense that this is the moment and what's been said in the last 24 hours that European allies will really have to step up and be unified in their approach towards Ukraine? Yeah, I mean, the comments from the US, the approach that Trump is taking in

It's either naive or just, you know, they agree with the Russians that Ukraine is not an issue for them. And, you know, Trump is obsessed with China. He doesn't see Europe as being his kind of big thing that he needs to focus on. So that should be a signal, a very strong signal to Europe and the UK that it's time to step up and it's time to, you know, really start spending more money in defense to recognize China.

the threat that Russia poses. And I think it's very difficult for people in Western societies to understand how different the Russian mentality is. Obviously, war is quite unthinkable to us. But, you know, Putin would not stop in Ukraine. And the reality is if European powers don't stop

Russia and Ukraine. That is going to mean that Russia takes over Ukraine and all of Ukraine's armed forces, all of the kit that the West has provided, will be in Russian hands on the border with EU countries. And that will provide Russia a very strong platform to then make

further incursions into the Baltic countries or on the other side of the Black Sea. It's a very dangerous position to be in. We've seen how Russia will, when it's occupied parts of the Donbass, it immediately mobilizes Ukrainian men and sends them into the fight against the Ukrainian forces. Now, that's something that we could easily expect them to do if they were to take over the whole of Ukraine. We'd see Ukrainian guys drafted, mobilized, forced to fight against their wall in the same way as many Russians, maybe against Poland or the Baltics.

Maxim, it's been really good speaking to you. Thank you very much. Thanks very much, Kate. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend. This is Josh Hart from the Knicks. The NBA all-star Jalen Brunson and I created a new video podcast. The Roommates Show, a Playmaker original. You know the vibes here are always immaculate. We're going to discuss our experiences on and off the court. You want to get into it? Is this...

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