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Welcome to The World in 10, The Times of London's daily podcast dedicated to global security. I'm Alex Dibble and I executive produce the podcast. The World in 10 is partnered with Frontline, the interview series from Times Radio available on YouTube, which has expert analysis of the world's conflicts. At the weekend, we bring you Frontline interviews in full.
Here's one of Frontline's recent interviews. I hope you find it interesting. Hello and welcome to Frontline. I'm Louis Sykes and today we are joined by former tank commander Hamish de Bretton-Gordon in the back of an M113 armoured personnel carrier. That's because we are at the Tank Museum in Bovington at the opening of their Ukraine exhibition. Hamish, thank you very much for joining us today. Well, thanks very much. This is my...
the museum of my regiment. So it's great to be here. Amish, the M113 is neither a Russian nor Ukrainian vehicle. It's American. And that reflects a wider adoption of Western-style fighting by Ukraine, doesn't it?
Well, certainly Western-style vehicles. So the M113 armoured personnel carrier, in here you would have a section of infantry. We see some of the weapons that they have here. And of course, we'll talk about some of the other Western vehicles. But absolutely, the Western way of fighting, what we call combined arms manoeuvre, this is where tanks, infantry vehicles like this, artillery, drones and aircraft,
are all working together to have an effect. Now, the Russians
have a very sort of traditional, what we call straight up type. It takes a lot of training to be able to fight the Western way and the Russians cannot do that because they're getting through so many troops. So what Ukraine is trying to do is, although they've got less troops, they do have better trained troops who can do this armoured manoeuvre. They have more sophisticated Western equipment. And
If they can get the mass and what I mean there by the numbers, then they can start really making inroads. But it's not their traditional way. So they've had to learn how to do it. A lot of trainers here who've been training Ukrainians, who no doubt you've spoken to. But it is certainly the way that they're going to achieve, most likely to achieve success.
And we'll discuss more on those vehicles later, but it reflects the importance of US support, which has never been in sharper focus. We've heard Trump's pissed off, if you'll allow me, comments over the weekend. I mean, if Trump turns now and puts more of that American support we saw last year behind Ukraine, is Russia ready for another fighting season?
Well, I think there are a number of things to unpick here. First of all, let's look at the Russians. Now Putin thinks he's winning. And until Trump got pissed off, one thought it appeared to the outside world that actually Trump and his close team were supporting Putin rather more strongly than they were supporting the coalition of the willing
and Ukraine. Psychology and warfare is 10:1 the physical. That reinforced Putin's perspective. The other thing that has been very stark this week, Putin has announced the biggest increase, the biggest conscription that Russia has ever seen, 150,000 troops. Now, this is not something
that you would do if you were looking for a ceasefire and peace. Admittedly, they have lost. The figures are difficult, but the worst case, Russia has lost up to a million men dead and injured. Now, that is unbelievable. So we know that they have to replace them. But the sort of feeling from Putin is that he's winning, he's making progress. Now, the Americans are key to this.
It would appear Trump has tried to do two things. First of all, he's tried to galvanize Europe into strengthening its own defense. And that is now happening. I think Europe and including the UK, we've sort of paid lip service since the end of the Cold War. And when Putin looked west on the 22nd of February 2022, he didn't see a conventional force that would affect him. And that really
upset Trump now that Europe is getting going. And even the Germans, who have been very ambivalent, have changed the rules. They are looking to spend 200 billion euros on defense. That's hugely significant. But it does come back, I mean, to answer your original question about the Americans. Of course,
America is by far the greatest military superpower in the world and has the capability to change things like the Ukraine war. Now, Trump has stepped back. He's been ambiguous and inconsistent, which is a really bad thing in warfare. Last week, we were thinking he was supporting Putin. This week, he appears to be behind Ukraine. If
America puts its full military might behind Ukraine, then they will win. Whether Trump's going to do that, who knows? At the moment, he's so focused on his tariffs and his trade wars that actually he seems to have taken his eye off what is actually happening in Ukraine. I suppose in the worst case, what we in Europe, the coalition of the willing need, is the US backstop.
But we go back to the leaked signal that we discussed last week. Everything coming out of that, really the Americans were telling Russia what they were going to do, but more importantly, what they weren't going to do and what they weren't going to do was come and say, pathetic Europe. Now, on that basis, Putin keeps going forward. If we can get some undertaking from the Americans that they will be the backstop, then I think the situation changes.
And I mean, Russia has also this week said it's turned down the ceasefire proposals in the current form. I mean, was there ever any sign on the battlefield, at least that Putin intended to halt his invasion? Or has something actually dramatically changed on the battlefield since Trump took over? I mean, I'm thinking of, you know, Kursk and the changing situation there. And of course, that pause in US support.
There are a lot of things that have changed. And that's why I would say it's not unsurprising that Putin thinks he's winning and he's cracking on. Because a few weeks ago, when Trump turned off the intelligence support to Ukraine and turned off the weapons, that had a profound effect. It allowed in a...
mainly allowed Russia to retake Kursk. And that was really important ground, certainly for any ceasefire negotiation, which Ukraine have now lost. They still hold a little bit of Kursk. And also it sort of made the Ukrainians pause and allowed Russia to regroup. And they've been regrouping, looking for another attack. Having said that, of course, Ukraine's had some pretty important successes over the last week.
taking out the air base and 96 cruise missiles, hugely significant. And a few days before that, four Russian helicopters all deep into Russia. So that was still an indication. But on the face of it, when Trump looked the other way or rather looked to support Moscow, they went on the offensive. Now the situation has changed yet again. And
we're back to a stalemate. But I think we just need to remind ourselves of why Putin invaded in the first place. He wanted to decouple Europe from the USA, and he's been pretty successful at that. And he wanted to completely subjugate the four oblasts and Crimea back into Russia. And he has always said that those are essential for any ceasefire. Now,
Half of these oblasts are only 50% taken by Russia at the moment. Why on earth would Ukraine give up
all this land. Also, why would Ukraine give up the Zaporozhye nuclear power station, which is, you know, before the war was producing 10% of the power for the whole of Ukraine? So yeah, I think Putin shows no indication at all of wanting a peace or even a ceasefire, because each time one has been sort of agreed, then immediately we get a whole lot of caveats. So
That is why I think we in Europe really must galvanize ourselves. The only thing that is going to stop this war is by the coalition of the willing and the US showing strength, which hitherto we've shown weakness. Putin understands strength and he exploits weakness.
And Kiev and some of its allies are reportedly setting out warnings now that Russia could be planning a new offensive in the east. I mean, does the drafting of that many more Russian troops, is that a signal that that sort of thing could be coming? Is that what a military planner might be thinking, right, that makes that more likely? Well, I think two things. First of all,
Is there indications that the Russians are planning a new offensive? Yes, there is. There's a lot of reporting, open source reporting of Russian troop formations. When it comes to the mobilization of 150,000 troops,
Usually that would be an indication of something happening in a year or two's time. Because if a British soldier who is mobilized here in the UK, they won't get to the frontline for at least 12 to 18 months because they've got to be trained. But Russian soldiers are literally given a week's training. So they're given a gun, they're shown how to fire it. Most of them don't even know how to clean it. And then they're put to the frontline.
If he's mobilizing 150,000 people today, it's incongruous, but it's reality that those troops might well be on the front line in the next two or three weeks. So it could well be. Those are indicators. And let's hope that when Trump takes his nose out of the tariff trough, he will start focusing on stopping the war in Ukraine again.
And we're sat here today among and inside some of the mechanized and modern, I'm thinking of the drone equipment as well that we've seen today, of this conflict. Is there any sign that this new Russian troops army perhaps could make use of any of that equipment in any form of kind of more modern style maneuver warfare? Or is this really one week's training? You're going to the front and we're sticking with that same tactical strategy?
plan? Yeah, I think it would be very, very difficult. We've seen very little what we call manoeuvre warfare by the Russians hitherto. The way they do is really mass.
I mean, what is interesting and we haven't really covered in this exhibition is the use of chemical weapons by the Russians. Now that has been very successful. And I was talking to brigades only last weekend about this because now when they do that, when Russian conscripts do their training here in the UK,
They are trained how to deal with gas attacks and they are given respirators, gas masks, which are actually made in the UK, made only a few miles away from here in Wiltshire. But they are still using that as an effect, but they are putting gas down. And as the Ukraine soldiers get out of trenches, they're then dropping a lot of artillery and
and doing direct fire. What we hadn't seen is tanks maneuvering, but the Russians have never done that. We've talked about Kursk, one of the greatest tank battles in history happened in Kursk in the summer of 1943. But again, it was just masses, thousands and thousands of Russian tanks steaming directly into thousands of German tanks. And at the end, Russia managed to prevail because it
just had a few more tanks. Now, what it does open is, you know, is Russia still producing enough tanks and artillery to keep things going? Well, it sort of is. But as we're seeing here in this exhibition, you know, the tanks, $4 million tanks, they're very vulnerable to 500,000
dollar drones. And that is an issue that, you know, it's great to see a lot of British Army soldiers and trainers here and speaking to them because they're learning about that. And we need to make sure that the men and women who are joining the British Army and European armies today, you know, are learning the right lessons on the battlefield and being trained to it, stay effective. But I would be surprised if the Russians will do anything
different to what they've done for the last three years. And that is the reason that they have taken a million casualties because they're using First World War tactics for a 21st century battle. Well, we've discussed some of the equipment that is being used in this conflict. I hope we could go and have a look at some of it now. Yeah, absolutely. I think all of our audience are pretty familiar at this point with this tank here. Hamish, what are we looking at here? Right. This is a T-72.
probably at the beginning of the war, the most numerous tank that the Russians had there. Also, the Ukrainians had T-72s as well, as the name sort of says, came into service in the sort of 70s, actually designed in the 60s.
a really good tank. I mean, seen throughout the world. I was talking to a Syrian tank commander in Syria only a few weeks ago, and he was in a T-72 in the Golan Heights. He got shot
out from under him four times and he survived. And that really brings in a really interesting perspective. You know, this is a great, I mean, this looks, you know, if a child draws a tank, they sort of draw something like this. And very, in tank design, you have firepower protection and mobility of the sort of the triumvirate. And this is a great demonstration of firepower
big 125mm cannon here, accurate up to about 2km and a couple of heavy machine guns as well. So that's your firepower. You can also fire anti-tank guided missiles through it, which is really interesting. And mobility, quite fast for a tank, about 40 miles an hour, that is pretty quick. But when it comes to armour, you know, not very...
not very much of it, which is why people will see so many Russian tanks destroyed. And often with the turrets blown off, there's a real weakness. It's what we call the turret ring. And the Ukrainians work that out. If they can fire even a 25-millimeter weapon into here, it can destroy it. So very numerous, very capable, very mobile. But the actual protection is enormous.
is pretty poor. So, and that's why, and vastly overmatched by the British Challenger 2, we're going to talk about the German Leopard and the American Abrams. And Russia does have more modern tanks than this. I'm thinking of things like the T-90, among others. I mean, what does it say of Russia's strategy and capabilities at this point in the conflict that this is still the workhorse?
Well, the T-80 doesn't look much different to this and the T-90 a little bit different. What we don't have on here is what we call reactive armour, which those sort of tanks would have.
The T-90s, the T-80s, the elite units, they have been destroyed a long time ago. The T-70 is the most numerous, but also we're seeing a lot of even older T-64B, which sort of looks similar to this and even the T-55. So I think it's Russia using sort of what it's got. Lots of stories, taking these out of museums, out of tank sheds and getting them revamped. They are very basic, very simple. Training is a key thing here.
I could probably train you in two or three days and you could fire the gun and you could drive the tank. But if anything went wrong, you'd be in trouble. You need to repair it. So that's why the Russian, dead simple. I mean, these things have been taken out. They're only allowing tank crews a week or two's training and then put it back in them.
we go and look at the Challenger 2, much more sophisticated, much more challenging. So they just couldn't get involved in that. So I think it's a reflection of where the war is and a reflection of what kit they've got left
and what they can still recover, repair and get back on the battlefield. And I suppose it reflects the impact that a lot of sanctions are having, equipment and parts embargoes. I mean, the Russians we're hearing now, a lot of their parts and replacement parts are coming from the North Koreans. I mean, what kind of impact can that have? Well, certainly sanctions. I wouldn't have thought there's too many sort of spare parts
the sanctions are affecting something like a T-72. But certainly, you know, making them and getting spares is a challenge. Now, the North Koreans have this stuff as well.
And they seem happy to give it to the Russians as they have thousands of soldiers. I mean, my concern is what North Korea getting in return, which is probably nuclear technology. And that is obviously a completely different topic. But it's where the state of the war is and the state of the Russian military.
So this is a Russian armoured vehicle, MTLBU is the name of it. What can you tell us about how the Russians use this sort of thing in mechanised warfare? Well, this is usually a sort of command vehicle or can be. We have lots of variants. It could be used for electronic warfare, carrying mortars, carrying infantry.
But as you can see, it's a big vehicle. And again, when it looks at firepower protection and mobility, mobility is pretty good protection. And this is a real vehicle. It's got about, I don't know,
half an inches of armor. This might keep out a rifle shot, but not much more. Fairly mobile and firepower, it'll have a heavy machine gun on the front. But on the battlefield in Ukraine, these are so vulnerable. I mean, this is easily taken out by a FPV drone, first person view drone. So we're not seeing a lot of them. We're seeing a lot of destroyed ones on the battlefield.
But you can imagine if I told you, we're going to get in the battle of back of this and go across a trench system in Ukraine, you would
hopefully tell me to get lost because you wouldn't last very long. But yeah, this is a sort of ubiquitous common Russian troop carrying vehicle, but it also does other bits and pieces too. They're not ideal for the modern battlefield against things like drones and top down attack weapons, perhaps.
And in reflection of that, Russian tactics have partially abandoned using vehicles like this to get right up to trench systems in favor of these mass attacks we were talking about earlier on foot. I mean, how does that reflect Russian tactics in this conflict?
Well, I think it reflects a reality. The Russians know if they put a lot of troops in here, they're unlikely to get to their objective. So it's a question of working out how they can get there. And certainly by the use of chemical weapons, use of other elements, they're more likely to get people to the front line than they are using these vehicles. And although the Russians aren't worried about morale and things like that,
It's pretty clear that their soldiers are only fighting now for money or if they've been let out of jail. But the Russians, they are not stupid. And they realize that using vehicles like these are just not going to get them where they are. And when they've got lots of manpower,
they can just keep throwing it into the meat grinder and that's what they're doing. Well Hamish, I think this is probably a far more familiar sight to you in terms of the vehicles they've got here today. Can you tell us what we're looking at here? Well absolutely, we're looking at Challenger 2. I spent thousands of hours commanding one of these tanks so very familiar to me. A derivative from the Challenger 1 which doesn't look
I think the first thing people will notice how much bigger it is than the T-72 we've just looked at there. And when we look at the firepower protection and mobility, firepower, it's got 120 millimeter rifle gun. Ukrainian tankies really like this 'cause you can knock out a T-72 at about three kilometers. Whereas a T-72 can only hit one of these at two kilometers. And that brings it onto the protection. You'll see the sloped armor here.
It's what's called Dorscher armor. It's secret, it's composite, but it can take fire from a T-72, T-80, T-90. And we've seen that, although two challenges from what we know have been taken out in Ukraine, lots of them have been hit by Russian tanks and still cracked on. Mobility wise, I mean, it's big, heavy beast, 70 tons as opposed to about 55 tons.
it's got a rolls-royce v12 engine it sounds very good but it's only 1200 horsepower and it's you know to push this sort of thing around is um you know it it does it but um it could do with a bit more and when we go into challenger 3 which is replacing this it has a more powerful engine so so it will get there
Some of the sighting systems here are really sophisticated thermal sights and the Commander has various other sights too and we have a couple of machine guns a coaxially mounted machine gun 7.62 and also a machine gun on the top so a really really capable vehicle
And really, almost, you know, when people ask me, I'm writing a book on tanks at the moment, what's the best tank? Well, the best tank I've ever been on is a Challenger 2.
And I'm hoping I'll be able to say the Challenger 3 actually brings in everything else and is the best tank in the world. And I've noticed one addition that is a Ukrainian invention or an invention out of the war, this sort of cage structure that's on top of the vehicle. What can you tell us about this and what it's linked to this war in particular?
Absolutely. As we've discussed many times, drones have come of age and these first person view drones, $500 drones dropping hand grenades through open hatches have destroyed so many tanks
Not so much Challengers because the Russian tanks blow up because they have their tank ammunition just on the ground or in the turret. And once it's ignited, it blows up. Actually, in the Challenger, you've got armored charge bins that would prevent that, but still a real issue. I mean, you...
In the tank museum, the very early tanks in the First World War actually had cages on as well. Nothing really changes. The Battle of Combré, tank soldiers were worried about German soldiers throwing sticky bombs, hand grenades onto the top, so they put chicken wire cages. These guys now have realised that drones, the way to defeat drones is to have a cage like this. So if it drops a hand grenade, it blows up on top of the cage rather than on top of the tank.
I am sure that the current British tank soldiers and developers are looking at what the Ukrainians have done and will do something similar. Now, the Challenger hasn't been supplied in massive numbers in Ukraine, but other European tanks have played a pretty important role in this conflict, haven't they?
Absolutely. Only 14 of these went to the front line. The mentioned two have been destroyed, but quite a lot more Leopard 2 tanks, which are not dissimilar to this, and 30 or 40, perhaps more, and also the American Abrams tank, which again, similar sort of vintage to this. So there are about 100, 150 plus Western tanks, which are
you know, had they had a thousand would have made a huge difference. But these are a bit like, you know, the Tiger tank in the first, second world war, you know, these vastly overmatch what they're up against. And that's a sign, isn't it? There's European tanks there that Europe can contribute to this conflict, to Ukraine's defense, at least in terms of weaponry.
Well, certainly Western weaponry, when you consider it against Russian weaponry, is far superior generally. It also is far more expensive, which is an issue here. You could probably get three T-72s for one Challenger II. But if we give it in enough numbers...
And hindsight's a great thing. If we're given a lot more at least at the beginning, we might not be in the position we are. But the West or certainly European NATO countries have now really got this defence bit between their teeth and are building up their forces. Now, whether the UK is going to get more tanks, they're certainly getting 150 of the Challenger 3s new. Whether that'll be enough, who knows? Obviously, money is at a premium. But Western equipment,
is performing generally much better than Russian equipment. And that must be a real consolation and a good thought for those of us in Europe and the West to consider.
Well, Hamish, Brett and Gordon, thank you very much for joining us today on Frontliner. I wonder if I can ask where we can find that book you were talking about? Yes. Well, my next book will be about a year's time. All good bookshops, as they say, but I'm writing it in conjunction with the Tank Museum. So I think it'll be on the shelves here for people in about a year's time. Fantastic. Well, thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you.
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