Inside Ukraine’s plan to jam - and destroy - Putin’s drones
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security.

I'm Toby Gillis with Laura Cook. Last weekend's incessant drone attack by Russia into Ukraine's major cities hit new levels since the start of the war. The besieged country is now struggling to quicken its efforts to increase its defence against them. The Times' Maxim Tucker has seen first-hand the technological developments that they're using in that quest. And Maxim joins us from Kiev now. Maxim, firstly, can you explain how the use of drones has increased throughout the war?

So Russia has obviously massively ramped up its production of long-range drones, particularly these Iranian-designed Shah head missiles. It's adapted them, it's improved them.

And they were able to launch this incredible barrage last weekend. And they used something like, you know, over a thousand drones in the course of three days, suggesting that they're now kind of mass production. And these drones are designed to overwhelm, saturate Kiev's defences and the defence of other cities to use up all of the kind of expensive Western provided missiles they have. Obviously,

Ukraine is trying to shoot these down with machine guns and things like that, but the Russians have adapted them to fly high at some points and low at other points. You know, it's a constant game of cat and mouse in terms of intercept these drones.

It sends a worrying message on the one hand that this drone production has ramped up so significantly. On the other hand, it also shows that Russia is reluctant to use its missiles. Missiles are more expensive, they're more effective, they're more difficult to shoot down. But we've been thinking for a while now that Russia is probably running out of these missiles and wants to keep some in reserve.

So the increased use of long range drones is it's a worry, it's a problem for Ukraine, especially if they're able to mass produce them in such large quantities. It has a very strong psychological effect on the population of Ukraine. You know, when you're listening to drone attacks that last from midnight to six in the morning.

And it's just constant explosions. That's very stressful and worrying for people in their cities. And it has a demoralising effect. But it's not perhaps as impactful and not as strategically problematic as massive amounts of missiles being fired at Ukraine. And in terms of stopping them, how damaging is that to Ukraine? I assume the more Russia send, the more costly the defence.

Right, and they're using decoys and the main, I think, objective here is to get Ukraine to use up its air defence missiles. Ukraine has not had an aid package with missiles from the US for a very long time. There is a very low production rate of anti-air missiles in

in Europe, it's still staggeringly low, considering we've had three years of war now, and we can see what Russia is capable of. And Ukraine is having to keep some missiles in reserve in case there's a very big kind of aviation push, or there's a big offensive. So they're really struggling with not having enough missiles. And these drones are designed to get close into the targets and force Ukraine to use these expensive missiles on cheap drones.

And then they won't have them available for shooting down the really big missiles, the ballistic missiles. And it creates a really, really challenging picture for Ukraine's quite sparse air defences. But you've been speaking with a man whose job it is to both lead the defence against those drones, but also train new recruits for the same. The brilliantly named Captain Coffee. How effective are those two parts of his role?

Right. So he's training soldiers on the front line, really, to deal with a slightly different kind of drone, the kind of drones that attack on the front line, radio-controlled drones mostly. And Ukraine has this ambition to build radio-electronic warfare war, which will jam drones. They may also include some sophisticated technology, which is being developed now to intercept Shah heads as well. But mostly what Captain Coffey is doing is training front line soldiers individually

into how to use radio electronic warfare on the front line that could save the lives of them and their soldiers from being hit by these FPV drones, which are just everywhere on the front line. They just saturate the front line now, and they're causing incredible amounts of casualties, and they're really impacting Ukrainian logistics. And he has a great challenge on his hand. He studied radio electronic warfare for the last six years. He understands the physics. It's complicated mathematics.

And he has to somehow impart this in 24 days to soldiers who have been kind of chosen at random by their commanders. And these guys are trying to create a system which will track Russian drones using their radio signals. These drones are often too small to be picked up on radar. So their radio signals, which they send the video feedback that operates, can be picked up.

And using that information, they try and triangulate where the Russian drone operators are. They then will try and hit the Russian drone operator. And they will, in the meantime, bring down the Russian drone to stop it hitting Ukrainian positions and saving light. And it's quite incredible what they can do with these things. They can now, so they can intercept the video feed. They can record a previous flight and replay it to the Russian drone operator. So he thinks he's still flying his drone while they've downed it and they're still triangulating his positions.

So, you know, it's quite incredible what they can do with this technology and they're developing it because they need to do it and they're developing it quite cheap. Ukraine says it needs more than 120 million US dollars to put this radio electronic wall up. How long might it all take to raise that cash and to actually get the wall up?

So they say that they've already deployed hundreds of these electronic warfare stations along the front line. We talked to some soldiers who use it on the front line. They say it's useful. It's already saving lives. They say they've raised a few million from their international partners so far, but they want a wall that encompasses thousands of these stations all along the 1,300 kilometre front line.

you know, it isn't an unrealistic prospect to raise 90 million in funding and to achieve that. The problem is for them that that is basically the entire budget that Ukraine has currently allocated to radio and electronic warfare, and they have to seek it

elsewhere. The other challenge that you have is this area of warfare is developing so rapidly. First the FPV drones become like this huge problem on the front line and then they develop these jamming capabilities to stop them and then immediately the Russians are onto fibre optic drones which can't be jammed. So this system that would jam drones using radio frequencies then needs to be complemented by something else as they're developing the project.

And the problem is, will Ukraine or other partners decide to invest in something that can stop kind of what is about 50% of the current drones when in future another type of drone might be used? But it is such a rapidly evolving area of technology. And I think what's very interesting about this is it's also making redundant a lot of the weapons that the West develops technologically.

to counter Russia over the past few decades. Like drones are replacing guns essentially as the primary weapons of war. You now have drones that can do all kinds of things from like sneaking into a bunker and taking out a few Russians to hitting a major production factory hundreds of miles behind the front line to bringing water and food to soldiers in the front line. So they have such a diverse range of possibilities.

possibilities now. And a report that was shared with us by Ukraine's military intelligence suggests that Ukraine inflicted 80% of its casualties on the Russians using drones over the past year. That all being said, Maxim, Ukraine is still seeking support to strike deeper into Russia using missiles. And Volodymyr Zelensky met the German Chancellor Friedrich Merz this week.

there was no agreement to hand over their long-range Taurus missiles. Do you think privately there's a different story? I think part of the reason

Part of that announcement is to create a kind of strategic ambiguity for the Russians. They have to adjust their supply lines logistics with the idea that they might be vulnerable to Taurus missiles. I think Ukraine is probably very likely to get Taurus missiles in the near future, but also whether it decides to use them straight away is another question. Mertz also alluded to

investing in a kind of joint Ukrainian-German production of long-range missiles inside Ukraine. So it's very interesting. I mean, I think the fact they don't want to talk about Taurus anymore suggests that something is in the works. You know, Ukraine also now has F-16 and French Mirages, which can be adapted to fire the Taurus quite easily. So I think all the ingredients are there for Ukraine to receive Taurus and to start using them pretty soon.

I assume at the start of the war, having their own missile building capability would have been ideal. Is it still? How important is this vow to support that by Germany?

I think it's a hugely important vow. I think it's very different from the Schultz administration. They're lifting restrictions. They're giving Ukraine the means to hit Russia where it hurts, wherever in the country. And I think that is going to create problems for the Russian military. Even if it takes some time for Ukraine to develop these weapons, the Russians...

will know that it's a possibility and they have to adapt their plans accordingly. I mean, also we've seen Ukraine is able to innovate incredibly rapidly. They have to because of this wartime situation. They are able to do it. And, you know,

It's a pretty good investment to invest in weapons production in Ukraine right now because it's cheaper than it is in the West. You know, they're going to be using them, testing them, making sure they're effective. And, you know, they're able to produce at a scale that is limited by the bureaucracy in Western countries.

So I think that is maybe a good way forward for Ukraine to be starting to develop these weapons. The production capacity in Europe, it could have been increased significantly over the past three years. It hasn't for a variety of reasons. And perhaps investing it in Ukraine is a better solution for Germany and others. Maxim Tucker, thank you for joining us.

Now, we looked in far greater depth at the importance of long-range missiles to Ukraine just a couple of episodes ago with our defence editor, Larissa Brown. Have a scroll back and listen if it's one you missed. For now, though, thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. We'll see you tomorrow.

Did you know that foreign investors are quietly funding lawsuits in American courts through a practice called third-party litigation funding? Shadowy overseas funders are paying to sue American companies in our courts, and they don't pay a dime in U.S. taxes if there is an award or settlement. They profit tax-free from our legal system, while U.S. companies are tied up in court and American families pay the price to the tune of $5,000 a year.

But there is a solution. A new proposal before Congress would close this loophole and ensure these foreign investors pay taxes, just like the actual plaintiffs have to.

It's a common sense move that discourages frivolous and abusive lawsuits and redirects resources back into American jobs, innovation, and growth. Only President Trump and congressional Republicans can deliver this win for America and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign-funded litigation abuse. If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on,

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