US security leak - what we really learned
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, Alex Dibble and Stuart Willey. A group chat involving senior members of Donald Trump's cabinet, inadvertently made public, has sparked embarrassment in Washington and unease on this side of the Atlantic. A journalist was added to a conversation about US strikes on the Houthis in Yemen. The

The White House has launched an investigation, but the security implications are undeniable. Sharing top-secret plans on the Signal messaging app represents a significant breach. Yet perhaps even more troubling is the candid discussion about the American relationship with Europe, which could have far-reaching consequences. Our guest today is Michael Evans, The Times' former defence editor and Pentagon correspondent, who now covers security for us.

Michael, in your vast experience, can you think of any breaches as serious as this one? I've been racking my brain to recall any similar sort of incidents. I mean, there have been lots of pretty wild leaks over the years, but no, I don't think so. I think this is an exceptional incident which will put the frighteners on the Trump administration and get various procedures changed pretty rapidly.

The people involved, J.D. Vance, Pete Hegseth, Mike Waltz, they're not career security professionals. Are they perhaps naive? How does this leak reflect on them? I mean, I think the first thing that probably should be said, well, there are two things. First of all, they all knew they were using the Signal app. In other words, it's an encrypted, perfectly well encrypted system for you and I to chat on it would be fine and nobody else will be listening.

But for them to use signal for this sort of conversation or for any conversation that involves national security is obviously not permitted in Washington. They have to use a very special system, sensitive, compartmented information facility. That's the one. And that's purely encrypted and secure. And the second thing is...

that obviously nobody was aware, even Michael Waltz, who actually the National Security Advisor, who invited Jeffrey Goldberg from Atlantic to take part in this, even he, I suspect, didn't realise that the JG that was the initials listed in this long list of 18 names was this journalist. So whatever Pete Hexeth said earlier,

and J.D. Vance said, and the others said, was said in ignorance, if you like, of the fact that it was a journalist listening in. So I think that's to be sort of fair, if you like. Clearly, if they'd known the journalist was there, they wouldn't have said what they'd said.

But obviously, they broke all the rules by using the Signal app. And what I don't understand is that one of the names on that list, or one assumes is the right, judging by the initials, is Susie Wiles, who is the very competent Trump White House chief of staff, who you would have thought would have checked or somebody on her staff would have checked all the initials to make sure that they were all legitimate.

But dear old JG was appearing on all these discussions and nobody asked, hang up, who is JG? JG, Jeffrey Goldberg, the journalist, was, he was careful not to publish his story until after the attack on Yemen.

And so some are saying there's been no real harm done from this leak. The damage really is people on the outside, all of us, in other words, looking on the inside, assuming that the administration is super smart and super efficient and super secure and super aware of what their job is. And they suddenly find that they're a group of very, very senior, in fact, the top officials...

not only chatting on a sort of insecure app, if you like, but at least not a government one. And then, of course, letting free reign on their opinions, which that is the most damaging thing, is the opinions they came up with. The discussion that's really stood out to many were the comments on Europe. We've heard the Trump administration talking tough about Europe again and again in public.

Some observers in Europe, and perhaps some politicians as well, and diplomats, have wondered whether that tough talk was to get the Europeans to step up on defence, and that maybe Trump and his administration didn't feel quite as strongly in reality. But does this leak show that this detest, almost, for Europe is how Vance and Hegseth and Waltz genuinely feel?

I fear it is. As you say, we've had a lot of insight into this before. Hegseth has been quite open about his views that Europe should do more. Trump has definitely said that, as he did in his first time in office. So I think that's not the sort of secret, if you like. But I think it's the language used is highly unfortunate, to put it at its lowest.

I loathe the Europeans, the way they sort of play piggyback and they're not doing their own thing. OK, so if you're in Washington and looking at Europe, this is a commonly held view that Europe just doesn't do enough.

And they look at the amount of money spent on defence and they say, well, you know, this is ridiculous. We are, OK, the superpower and we're the leader of the NATO alliance, but it really is time. I mean, this is an old message that has been spelled out by many administrations. But with this particular one and with the particular people who are in charge of some of the departments, Pete Hegsteth being one of them, they do seem to have a very sort of personal relationship

about Europe and that they're not playing not playing ball. They seem to ignore the fact, by the way, that they are assuming that the sort of argument was why why are we bothering? And Vance's argument was why are we bothering to do this now when, you know, not much commercial traffic from America goes through the Red Sea? It's all mostly it's it's Europe. So let them do it.

You know, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have been involved. The French Air Force and Navy have been involved in the Red Sea for months and months. And they've been attacking Houthi targets and shooting down drones, etc. So it's not like Europe has been sitting back and letting America do all the hard work on the Houthi threat to commercial traffic going through the Suez Canal and the Red Sea. A big part of the alliance, a big part of that relationship is sharing intelligence with

For allied intelligence services, how much today will they be contemplating whether they should be sharing as much data as in the past? I mean, it would be absolutely fatal if the unique intelligence sharing system was in any way undermined or reduced, because frankly, it's the club, the so-called Five Eyes Club, which Britain obviously is a part of,

They all play a crucial role in sharing intelligence. It's not just America. America, obviously, if you like, is the main provider because they have such a huge satellite network, which, of course, we don't have.

But the actual analysis and sharing is key to the whole alliance and the whole defence security set up. It would be highly damaging if someone in London and Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the other ones who are part of this Five Eyes Club didn't.

If they were to say, we shall draw back from now on and reduce. In fact, in the case of, certainly in the case of this country, it wouldn't even be possible to do that because the intelligence services are so closely interlinked.

that it just wouldn't be possible, I think, to reduce the impact of the Five Eyes Club. And I think the intelligence services people themselves, all highly professional, have very, very good close links with their counterparts in America. And I just don't see that being affected. But politically, governments might say, are we sure that we want to continue providing America with all the secrets that we have,

politically that is just a possibility but basically the intelligence sharing will will carry on because it has to carry on because that's the way the system works most effectively michael how surprised were you by jd vance the vice president being so involved in these conversations and i suppose particularly that unlike in public he seems to perhaps disagree with trump's positions

Yeah, it's an interesting little nuance, I thought, in the conversation where he was suggesting that it was too early. Maybe you should wait a month before the attacks go out. And what he was trying to say was that the message coming out of the Trump administration has been nonstop. Europe must do more. Europe must do more.

Europe must take over whatever it is that happens in peacekeeping in Ukraine. It's got to be Europe. So the message is Europe, Europe, Europe. And here is Trump saying, I think we should start bombing the Houthis because they're still attacking commercial traffic. And by the way, most of the commercial trafficking is European. So I think that's the message that Vance was putting across, was I don't really quite see that this is not the message that we're trying to put out. So let's wait for a month and see what happens. But

But, and then I rather like the comment where he said, well, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and I will go along with the team if they think the bombing is a good idea, I'll go along with it, but I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Poor J.D. Vance, the whole world now knows what his personal thoughts are.

Michael, thank you. That is Michael Evans, a longtime defence editor and Pentagon correspondent here at The Times. For more on whether Europe can step up and take over, listen back to the World in 10 episode on March the 6th, entitled Is Europe Really Stronger Than Russia? It's well worth a listen. That's it from us. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. See you tomorrow.

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