Why China, Russia and Iran hold talks over Tehran’s nuclear program
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Hello and welcome to World Today, I'm Ding Han in Beijing. Coming up, Lao foreign minister is in China to strengthen ties. China says it has never exported fentanyl-related medications to North America.

Ukraine is losing territory to Russia in the Kursk region as Moscow examines an American proposal for ceasefire. And a Chinese court has ruled that artificial intelligence-generated image should have copyright protection. To listen to this episode again or to catch up on our previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.

China has announced a meeting with Russia and Iran in Beijing to discuss Iran's nuclear program. China's foreign ministry says the meeting is Beijing's latest diplomatic effort in creating conditions for the resumption of Iranian nuclear talks, adding that China is committed to international mechanisms for nuclear nonproliferation.

The focus on Iran's nuclear program is coming amid renewed pressure from the United States to push Tehran to agree to a deal on this issue. Iranians reached a deal with Britain, China, France, Germany, Russia and the United States back in 2015, which lifted sanctions on Iran in return for curbing its nuclear program.

Washington under Donald Trump withdrew from the deal back in the year 2018. So joining us now on the line is Dr. Zhang Chuchu, Deputy Director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies with Fudan University.

So thank you very much for joining us today, Dr. Zhang. Of course, a key reason why China can host this meeting is that China, Iran and Russia maintain good relations with each other. We have heard from the Iranian side that one focus of this meeting is the lifting of sanctions on Iran. So in your observation, what are some of the specific issues on which the three parties can see eye to eye?

Okay, from my own observation, I would say that the Beijing meeting is China's latest diplomatic effort to strengthen communication and policy coordination between China, Iran and Russia, and also to create conditions

for the early resumption of dialogue and negotiation between these sides. And I think one important objective, as you have mentioned, is to avoid escalation of the Iranian nuclear situation or even confrontation and conflict. So I think the meeting actually calls for an early resumption of the Iranian nuclear talks, but also it wants to make sure and consider this very important to ensure the principles of respecting national sovereignty.

Okay, so China's longstanding policy or position is that China supports Iran in terms of safeguarding its own legitimate rights, and China calls for an early resumption of the Iranian nuclear talks. What do you make of this position?

Above all, I think by supporting Iran's legitimate rights, China tries to emphasize its commitment to several diplomatic principles, such as sovereignty and non-interference, which are actually the core principles of China's diplomacy. And also China endorses this view as a way to uphold the international law.

And secondly, I would say calling for an early resumption of nuclear talks reflects China's preference for dialogue over confrontation. So actually China has been seeing the JCPOA as a successful example of multilateralism.

which aligns with its mission of a multipolar, let's say, world order. So China has proposed the approach of peace through development in solving the Middle Eastern issues. And it believes that the prolonged tensions could only damage the regional actors and extra-regional actors' interests.

I see. So on the Russian part, of course, most recently we saw this resumption of high-level diplomacy between Moscow and Washington, not only over the war in Ukraine, but also over their broader relations.

Russia-U.S. bilateral ties, I think. So what do you think this change in terms of the momentum between Moscow and Washington might mean for the Iranian nuclear issue?

Right. So personally, my understanding is that the resumption of high level diplomacy between Moscow and Washington at the moment could have a dual impact on the Iranian nuclear issue. And everything is still very uncertain and unpredictable because on the one hand, you could always say it might

facilitate the big power dialogue and policy coordination on these very important issues. But on the other hand, we also know that Russia has been a deepening, has been an sort of

an ally of Iran and actually Russia's deepening ties with Iran suggests that Moscow is unlikely to pressure Tehran too hard. So if the United States, Russia talks further or have more problems over Ukraine, then Moscow might even double down on its alignment with Iran, which might complicate the nuclear negotiations. So I would say that

the Russia-U.S. relations uncertainties may mean that its role in the Iranian issue could actually shift. So U.S. President Donald Trump withdrew from the 2015 nuclear deal, JCPOA, during his first term in office. But actually after his return to the White House in January this year,

He has one way or another signaled a kind of openness or being open to a new deal with the Iranian side. He says he has even sent a letter most recently, sometime last week, I guess, via diplomats based in UAE to the Iranian Supreme Leader Khamenei proposing nuclear talks.

So does that mean that Donald Trump is now taking a different approach to Iran for his current term in the office?

Okay, I think Trump's shift from outright rejection of the JCPOA to proposing new talks actually indicates a tactical adjustment rather than a fundamental change in his policy. Because let's see, in his first term he pursued the so-called maximum pressure to force Tehran into a tougher agreement.

But he did not achieve his objective successfully. So right now, I think by signaling his openness to a new deal with Iran, I think Trump seems to show two of his intentions. So first of all, he tries to combine multiple means rather than simply sticking to only one mean that is to adopt the pressure tactics.

But we should also note that his rhetoric still includes military options, which indicates that he's keeping all tools on the table at the moment. And second, I would say by showing an attempt to negotiating directly with Iran, Trump also tries to make Saudi Arabia more nervous and thus pressures it to make more compromises in its relations with the United States.

So, by the way, what do you make of the role of those White House advisors in terms of shaping Donald Trump's thinking about Iran? Like during his first term in office, we saw people like John Bolton and say the then American Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Those were very, very hardline and hawkish voices, right? But what about now?

So actually, I think two things are very important to point out. The first point is that right now, if you look at the administration of Trump, you might find that actually lots of his colleagues are also very hawkish people, especially when it comes to the Middle Eastern issue. So I don't think that has changed much.

And secondly, there are a lot of people saying that right now in his administration, there are a lot of politicians that have very different backgrounds compared to the traditional diplomats and

and government officials in the old time. So a lot of people are saying that right now there are a lot of politicians who are not that professional or did not have those kind of professional education. But in any case, I think we should also take into consideration the consistency to some extent in the United States government.

So it means that these figures, although they play a role, but they cannot decide everything. So on the Iranian side, why do you think Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has rejected holding negotiations with the United States?

I think Hameini's rejection stems from deep mistrust and strategic calculation because actually the United States withdrew from the JCPOA in 2018, followed by sanctions and the assassination of Soleimani.

both under Trump's presidency. Actually, all these events and issues left a lasting scar on Iran's leadership. So right now, I think Iran does not have much trust in Trump. And strategically, Khamenei sees Iran's nuclear program as a sort of leverage. So with sanctions already in place for a long time and the economy adapted to isolation to a certain extent, he may calculate that rejecting

talks preserves Iran's bargaining power. And I would say, as he knows clearly that pivoting to talks with Trump could weaken his own authority within his country. I think Khamenei is trying to make a balance between reducing sanctions imposed on Iran, but at the same time, he also wants to maintain his hotline position so as to gain domestic support to some extent.

So ultimately, do you think enough international momentum can be built among major powers and Iran for the resumption of the nuclear talks?

Right. So personally, my understanding is that the potential for momentum exists, but I think it's still very difficult and there are many challenges. Also, it depends on several factors. So first of all, I think the United States and Iran, they do not trust each other. And the second issue is that the Gaza war is still ongoing.

and there is still tension between Iran and United States intimate ally, that is Israel. So I think there are still a lot of uncertainties. So I think it still has a long way to go. Thank you very much for joining us and for your analysis. Dr. Zhang Chuchu, Deputy Director with the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Fudan University.

Coming up, Lao foreign minister is in a trip to China to strengthen ties. Stay tuned. Once upon a time, fat people were believed to be more blessed. Now, they are urged to watch their weight. On this week's Chat Lounge, we check out China's ongoing national campaigns to promote public awareness and skills in weight management, as the nation deals with the unbearable heaviness of being overweight.

how different is china's overweight and obesity issue from that of other countries what dietary advice has been tailored to different regions in different seasons across the country what business opportunities may emerge during the campaign get them all wherever you listen to podcasts and on cgtn radio you're backwards world today i'm dean honey by jane

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi has called on China and Laos to strengthen mutual trust and cooperation so as to accelerate the construction of a China-Laos community with a shared future. The senior Chinese diplomat made the remark in a Thursday meeting with his Lao counterpart Tong Xiaowan Punavahani here in Beijing.

Wang Yi has called for enhanced and increased bilateral cooperation in fields including energy, artificial intelligence, and the digital economy, adding the two countries should also work together in a fight against cross-border crimes like online scam.

And for his part, Tong Xiaowan said his country is ready to seek more cooperation with China in energy, agricultural issues, tourism, infrastructure, as well as emerging industries. The Lao foreign minister is currently on a four-day visit to China. So joining us now on the line is Dr. Rong Ying, chair professor with the School of International Studies, Sichuan University. Thank you very much for joining us.

Thank you for having me again. So, Professor Rong, I guess when we talk about China-Laos cooperation, probably a major highlight in most recent years has been this landmark China-Laos railway. And here, please allow me to share some data. Since its launch a couple of years ago, the railway has transported 43 million passengers, including more than 740,000 passengers

within Laos. It has also in the meantime moved more than 4,800 tons of goods. So what do you make of the economic potential that has been unleashed along this project's route?

I think we all know that the China-Laos railway, ever since its completion, has served as a catalyst and game changer, not only in terms of Laos' economic and social development, but also showcased

the potentialities and also the practicalities of cooperation, a win-win cooperation between China and its neighbors. Talking about the economic potentials, I think as we have seen through the meetings, China has very much pledged, and again, that in the context of implementing the community of shared future between China and Laos,

and also its action plans, new version of action plans, that the two sides would like to pursue or push for a kind of a comprehensive development along the railways, which I think is literally, I think, the idea of China-Laos economic corridor project. And if that happens,

That is supposed to be the next phase of cooperation. And again, during the meeting, we have seen that the two sides, I mean, certainly at a political level, but more importantly, I think, at the economic and the practical levels where these ideas, these initiatives would be implemented.

so that they will bring more tangible results for economic development, social and economic development in Laos. So regarding other areas of cooperation, economic cooperation more specifically, why do you think China and Laos are nowadays setting their eyes on emerging industries such as artificial intelligence?

Yeah, I think certainly as far as Lao is concerned, it's a kind of least developed economy. I mean, working towards kind of a developing economy where full potentialities will be played out.

And so the traditional sectors, infrastructure development, energy explorations, agriculture and so on and so forth remain very important areas where I think with China's assistance and support, particularly like the flagship project of the railway, China Railway, is going to

take a greater, very important role continuously. But in the meantime, I think Lao is also very much interested in and feel that they have to catch up with the emerging areas in this regard. I think AI, green development and so on, so a digital economy,

are very much important. And interestingly, because Lao is very much rich in resources, particularly in power generation, hydropower, and AI and other these developments, because they are very much, I think, rely on energy and power,

I think the five largest concerns become a new and emerging area will help Laos not only catch up the latest development, this cutting edge technology, the new areas, but also I think would diversify.

Laos diversify its economic structure. So this is a new area. This is a very important area where China and Laos can work together. I guess it is about leveraging on Laos natural resources as a potential advantage.

So shifting gears, when we talk about China's cooperation with its neighboring countries in terms of fighting against the cross-border criminal gangs like those online scams, a lot of attention has been most recently placed upon, say, countries like Thailand and Myanmar, and some achievements have been made already.

So when we talk about Laos, what do you think this country, what do you think is the role that Laos can play judging from the current situation?

Well, certainly, Laos has always been a very important partner for China's efforts, and indeed, it's a regional effort for addressing or managing the non-traditional security issues, cross-border crimes, and so on and so forth.

If we remember that back, I mean, I think early last decade, I'm talking about 2010 something, there were very violent, erroneous kind of crime accident involving Chinese nationals. And after that, China, Thailand and Myanmar,

They started a kind of a sub-regional, actually, kind of a cooperation to maintain safety and security along the Mekong River.

And that is the beginning of the start of that cooperation. And during the visit, again, I think one of the major sort of results, documents that have been signed between China and Laos, Laos PDR, is a kind of MOU on how to implement in the global security issue, which is, of course, very much relevant to

to this context and over the past uh sort of months and years lao has always been very much constructed and instrumental in helping and working together for that regional cooperation addressing the cross-border issues and specifically related that uh cross-border

online scams and Lao has been very helpful, has been very cooperative in terms of cutting the power, dealing with the cases and so forth. And it's also very much in the context where there's a sub-regional cooperation called the Lan Chang Meigong cooperation where security cooperation, security

collaboration among the members, the six members, China and other five Indochina countries, has been working very closely. So Lao plays a very important role. Lao has always been, I think, ready to work with China and other regions for that issue. Actually, late last year in December, I think, American propaganda machine VOA

published a piece saying hefty loans owed by Laos to China were stoking soaring inflation in Laos, suggesting that the Chinese loans in this country was unsustainable, etc., etc. What is your take on narrative like this?

This is purely, I think, a kind of effort by the United States media to try to smear the Chinese cooperation with Laos and other developing countries where it is true that they have a kind of dilemma. On the one hand, they need investment, they need

I mean, various kind of support, financial support to address their deficit, their infrastructure and others. In the meantime, I think the changes externally, particularly in the wake of the Ukraine crisis and others, has caused

sort of their external environment, these developing countries like Laos, becoming more sort of difficult, more vulnerable to the issues. So Laos, it is true, I think that death issues in Laos is quite an issue. We're talking about sort of

kind of quite high ratio of debt to GDP. But this is purely because, as I said, they are Laos, countries like Laos, they need investment, long-term investment for infrastructure. And also because of the, for example, Laos kept,

in the past few years have seen a 30% depreciation, causing a lot of problems in terms of debt servicing. And also I think in the past years we have seen that Laos has, for its own development, has borrowed quite a lot of commercial loans,

which makes them, again, very difficult. So all in all, we're talking about issue, but it's not because of China. Rather, I think because of China's support, now they were seeing that they are going to find a way to address these issues. We take your point. The most important point here is that this country needs development. That's for sure. Dr. Rong Ying, joining us from Sichuan University. Thank you very much for joining us.

You are listening to World Today. I'm Dinghan in Beijing. We'll be back after a short break.

You're back with World Today, I'm Dinghan in Beijing. China's National Medical Products Administration says China has never exported fentanyl-related pharmaceuticals to North America. The agency has emphasized that Chinese authorities are implementing the toughest-ever control measures for fentanyl-related medications.

Only three companies in China are authorized to produce active pharmaceutical ingredients, while at the same time, only five companies in this country are permitted to manufacture finished fentanyl preparations. The agency has vowed that China will continue to enhance supervision of fentanyl-related medications production and distribution.

For more, my colleague Gao Yingshi spoke with Professor Zhao Daojiong from the School of International Studies with Peking University. According to National Medical Product Administration, China has never exported fentanyl-based pharmaceutical products to North America. Why does the United States keep claiming that China is a major source of illegal fentanyl entering the United States?

Between China and the United States, between any pair of countries, the movement of product trade, there can be three channels. One is legal, one is illicit, and the third is illegal.

Now, I would think the National Medical Product Administration of China is emphasizing that under the legal channel, China did not export. But in terms of illicit, which means by Chinese law, the export of a product may not have violated explicit Chinese restrictions or proper

prohibitions. But on the other hand, you have, we say, enterprising or entrepreneurship that may work on the margins of law. But then you have a third dimension that is that the exporters based here in China, again, you have to factor my word carefully, exporters based in China may not be

under the Chinese citizens who conduct this, knowing that it's a violation of either Chinese law or American law or that of international conventions on narcotics control. But in whichever case you have a supply and demand dynamics at work,

China has implemented comprehensive regulatory measures for fentanyl production and export, including strict company certification, production limits based on medical needs, and international verification protocols, yet various interest groups in the United States persistently exert pressure on China regarding this issue. How does this approach serve specific political and economic interests within the United States?

Both China and the United States are members, and in many ways, influential members of a set of mechanisms under the United Nations.

For example, you know, you have the basic agency under the United Nations is the narcotics control. And as part of fulfilling the requirement of narcotics control cooperation, the UN-based agency plays a very important role. And in many ways, that's the platform for discussions or debates among countries.

government agencies to say who is doing enough, who is not doing enough. The UN agencies routinely on an annual basis publish technical reports. And in terms of China's export of fentanyl class of materials, as a class of materials, you have

records in the United Nations. I would think those records, I believe those records are verifiable and it's probably a good idea or a better idea to treat such reports as a more credible source of reference. What is the current status

status of China-U.S. cooperation on fentanyl control and how have recent changes in the U.S. government administration and this kind of policy approach influenced this kind of collaboration? Status of

Bilateral cooperation and fentanyl control or more broadly narcotics control. By the way, narcotics include natural, semi-natural and fentanyl is a different category that is totally synthetic.

This cooperation, if you look at formal structure, goes back at least to 1985. That's a few years after the US discovered fentanyl as being among its illicit drugs in its market society. And also the UN, the United States worked through the United Nations and China both worked with the United States and learned,

our agencies, our scientists have been quite observant of what has been going on in the United States. Now, you asked recent changes in U.S. government administration approach. I don't believe that here in China we draw a cause and effect relationship between, let's say, the U.S. decision to levy

additional tariffs by citing fentanyl as an issue as being relevant. As I understand, Chinese policy is to reject that linkage. In many ways, China is not alone in doing that. If you look at pronouncements of Canada, the Canadian government, likewise, the Canadians

government rejects the linkage, their neighbors, and Mexico also rejects that linkage as a principle. But at the same time, the very fact that

You know, the Chinese government's information office published a very substantive white paper on fentanyl and fentanyl incorporation. It's a reaffirmation of its readiness to collaborate with the United States to enhance the curve on the international flows of all, let's say, narcotics, in particular synthetic

How would the imposition of additional US tariffs on Chinese goods impact existing fentanyl control collaboration between China and the US? I don't think there is an impact. As I said before, the cause and effect or the rationale on the US side is not accepted.

here in China. So the trade issue, the terrorist issue should be treated and it's been treated, I believe.

separately or in a parallel way from the fentanyl control collaboration. Rather than pursuing punitive trade measures, what domestic policy approaches could the United States implement that would more efficiently address the root cause of the fentanyl crisis within its borders? I'm not a public health person, but I would think

Like I said, the Americans have, at the society, at the government, the people have been trying their best to bring the unfortunate situation under control. Each society has its own set of dynamics, like I said.

Drug abuse, including fentanyl, takes place in all societies, including here in China. Down the road, I would hope the current level of attention to the fentanyl issue should really be the invitation, be a boost for resuming, for making space so that researchers, doctors, and also, let's say, even the citizens of the two countries

to take lessons from each other. That kind of societal level interaction is very important. Professor Zhao Daojong from the School of International Studies, Peking University, talking with my colleague Gao Yingshi. Coming up, Ukraine is losing territory to Russia in the Kursk region as Moscow examines an American proposal for ceasefire. We'll be back. You're listening to World Today. I'm Dinghan in Beijing. Russian forces have made steady gains in the Kursk region.

Russian's Ministry of Defense on Wednesday reported the capture of several more villages, saying there were good dynamics. Last year, Ukraine stormed across the border and seized this very piece of territory inside of Russia in efforts to gain a potential bargaining chip. Russian President Vladimir Putin has made his first trip to this region since Ukraine's attack, saying the region will soon be completely recaptured.

The Russian advance in battlefields comes as the United States presents a plan for a 30-day ceasefire. The Kremlin says it is waiting to see more details with regard to this U.S. proposal. So joining us now on the line is Dr. Zhang Xin, Deputy Director of the Center for Russian Studies, East China Normal University. Thank you very much for joining us.

Thank you for having me. So first of all, what do you think has made the Ukrainian side losing ground to Russia in Kursk? And do you think this battlefield situation in this region will play any role in terms of determining whether Moscow is going to accept the U.S. proposal for ceasefire?

I think the Kursk withdrawal, which is happening now, which would likely to continue on for the next few days, is a reflection of the overall battlefield situation

resources and capacity distribution between the two sides. For the past few months, the overall pattern on the battlefield level is quite clear. Russia overall has an advantage in artillery, in manpower, and it's on the attack overall.

Ukraine is in a big disadvantage, is trying to hold the battle line in a defensive mode. And that also has been reflected in the Kursk region overall. And also a few days ago, there was this surprising attack from the Russia side. A group of Russian soldiers actually managed to attack part of the Soja region within Kursk through an abandoned gas pipeline,

which is a small episode in this larger picture of Russia on the attack, Ukraine on the defensive. So I think that's a reflection of the overall pattern. As for the result of the very likely Ukraine full withdrawal from the Kursk region,

I think it will not be the decisive factor, but will definitely play into the overall political bargaining ongoing between Russia, Ukraine and the U.S. Because for a while, very clearly, Ukraine took the Kursk, its ability to hold a certain part of Russian territory in the Kursk region as a potential main bargaining chip.

on any possible ceasefire or maybe political settlement of the Russian-Ukraine war. Now, this bargaining chip looks very likely will be off the table. So again, it's not the decisive factor, but definitely will play into the bargaining game right now we see, and that's not in Ukraine's favor for sure.

So what do you think is the broader message that President Vladimir Putin has tried to deliver by making this openly publicized trip to Kursk?

uh you're right i think this is uh the first time uh president putin showed them in person uh on the course uh front line and if i'm not mistaken um if not the only one definitely one of very few times since 2022 uh april 24th uh for more than three years he hasn't been uh uh

physically present on the frontline for that many times. And this will be also very few times overall for his presence on the frontline and also in a full military gear, right? So I think his message was quite clear. He wants to be there to give the Russian army a big boost, also declare to both the Russian military, but also to the audience in and outside of Russia

This is a big achievement. We will take over all the territories occupied by the Ukrainian soldier completely very soon. And this is the beginning of a full military success, victory. And then there will be a decisive moment for any political negotiations on the negotiation table, whether it's with the United States or with Ukraine or with European countries. So I think the message is quite clear. Hmm.

The ball is on our side. Okay. So many people, including U.S. officials, say the ball is now in the courts of Russia following this U.S.-Ukraine talks in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday this week. Is this how you would have framed this whole situation right now? I would probably say yes.

I think President Trump in the past few days for more than once, I think he declared, said publicly in the face of President Zelensky, you don't have any cards, right? You don't have cards right now. Now the situation seems to me is President Putin can say that in the face of President Trump too. You don't have the cards. The cards are on our side. And I think the Russian side will definitely take action

advantage of this situation and try to push any possible political negotiation to squeeze the

window of opportunity or space for bargaining for both the United States and the Ukraine and possibly with Europe to squeeze their space for bargaining, for making a deal and then expand the possible set of possible outcome

for political negotiation for Russia, in favor of Russia. I think that for the past 24 hours, maybe 48 hours, the message we received from Russian top officials

Putin himself, also from the Duma, from the State Council, from Putin's spokesperson, all more or less point to that direction. Now, actually, according to some media reports, most recent media reports,

Russia has presented the United States with a list of demands for a deal for ending the war with Ukraine and resettling this broader relations with Washington. And basically, according to the media reports, Kremlin's terms are said to be similar to the demands that it has previously presented to Ukraine, for example, and to the United States and to NATO.

Do you think those reports are credible? Why or why not? I can only say it's likely, although these details need to be further verified. So far, it's one of the versions of the stories being circulated around. We've seen that kind of different stories published.

uh circulated from different sources um over the past few months as to what russia's exact demand is right i think there's some clear sort of overlap between this set of demands and some of the demands we see uh before raised by russia i think russia wants um no absolutely no um

data membership for for Ukraine and then a very much once for all recognition of Crimea and the four Eastern provinces of Ukraine to be permanent legal legitimate permanent member of permanent territory of Russian Federation and then no

No NATO presence, either for a station, a troop stationed or presence of weaponry. No military exercise on whatever remains as Ukraine after the war is over. I think those are pretty much sort of the core demands that show up in almost all different versions of the story. But I think what's not completely clear is whether Russia demands something extra.

extra maybe um uh further restriction on NATO's presence not only in Western Ukraine but in parts of former Soviet Union particularly the corpses and maybe part of Eastern Central Eastern Europe

That was actually part of what can be implied in the ultimatum Russia sent to United States and NATO right before the war broke out December 2021.

So there is a possibility Russia may take the opportunity, the advantage we just described, to further demand NATO, further withdraw, withdraw its potential presence

and the involvement not only in Western Ukraine, but in part of former Soviet space, as well as in Central Eastern Europe. So that's not completely clear. There's a chance Russia may go for that, but it's also not finalized. Thank you very much, Dr. Zhang Xin, joining us from East China Normal University. You're listening to World Today. We'll be back.

You're back with World Today, I'm Dinghan in Beijing. A court in the eastern Chinese province of Jiangsu has ruled in favor of copyright protection for artificial intelligence-generated content. The court says a picture generated was an AI tool qualified as a copyright-protected work for its originality, emphasizing that the human user demonstrated unique selection and arrangement during this very process.

the plaintiff used an AI tool to create an image depicting a heart-shaped balloon before posting it on social media. Later, two companies were sued for using this very design without permission in their own social media posts.

The court is now ordering these two defendants to issue a public apology and pay the plaintiff 10,000 yuan or more than US$1,300 in damages. This is actually the second court on the Chinese mainland that has weighed in on a heated debate with regard to whether AI-generated content should be protected by copyright.

So joining us now on the line is Bai Xianyue, partner of Grandel Law Firm. Thank you very much for joining us. A pleasure to be here. So what is your main takeaway from the court's ruling in this particular case? Some people say this case is further enriching and refining those legal practice or legal theory related to AI. What is your take?

This is an interesting case in the sense that it marks a significant step towards recognizing AI-generated content or intellectual property-related works.

to be copyrightable. It is different from traditional copyright cases in the sense that part of the creation is attributable to the AI tool that is used by this particular user, which is the plaintiff.

But I guess it's a result of the technology, of the advancement of AI. People have long expected this step. It's going to be happening in just a matter of time. But I would say the case itself, the ruling by this particular court,

doesn't change significantly the overall legal structure of copyright, the definition of originality, the standard of protection, and the definition scope of originality, etc. So what do you make of the importance or significance of creativeness or originality for AI-generated content?

Well, the technology has always been advancing over the past centuries. The legislation, the legal system is always lagging behind. That is the case throughout human history. And the legal system, the legislation has always been trying to catch up with the technology.

And that means the technology needs, well, the legislation needs to adapt and to be revised and to be updated, etc. So in terms of creativeness, the technology of AI will sooner or later be able to advance to a stage where we probably have to review

and take a look at our conventional definition of originality because it's simply a matter of technology. It's just a matter of time, as I said just now earlier.

So we will have to restructure and review and probably redefine the content, the definition of originality in the era of AI. So AI will change to a large extent depending on the development, the speed of this development.

this progress of technology, we probably have to readapt our definition and re-finetune our standard of protection of IP property rights, including copyright. Okay. So one point you made earlier is that this case, this particular case we're talking about here in and of itself does now change the

existing architecture of China's copyright laws. So in a bigger picture sense, are you confident that China's legal framework, China's broader legal system can keep pace with the development of AI or other kinds of emerging technologies? Because now we are really living in a digital era.

Well, this is definitely a challenge for the legislature of China, which is the same case, I guess, for every legislature across the world at the time of AI development at such a rapid pace.

One thing that is particular about Chinese legislature at very top level is it's the only body that has the legal power to legislate a national piece of law, including AI, including many other areas of technology issues.

And the challenge is, in particular, it is too busy. It is overloaded with too many pieces of legislation to be completed every year. We have hundreds of pieces of law that needs to be updated and revamped.

every year. So the courts also have the challenges of having to deal with these new types of technology issues and challenges of the new technology and new legal issues that completely probably would change the previous legal landscape that we faced earlier.

So the court is also struggling with this new type of challenges. This particular piece of case we just mentioned just now is a very good example of this. So I'm glad that the court made a significant step towards adopting and embracing the new technology coming into the life of everyday life.

But still, in order to completely, you know, embrace the new era, I guess the top legislature has to, for example, adopt and promulgate new pieces of law. And that would take time. The thing that I'm concerned is we are too far.

probably behind sometimes the advancement of technology, which is the case over the past centuries. The law, the legislation is always trying to catch up with the new technology and the only problem is at what pace and how fast.

In order to be effective and in order to support and provide a legal system that is conducive to the advancement technology, we need to do something to bring this legislation process up to speed and make it more efficient.

Okay, so the final question before we let you go, beyond a legal perspective, some people say now there is a collaborative creation between human creators and AI, and as AI develops, humans are gradually shifting from being a kind of direct creators to creative architectures who exercise control. What is your personal thoughts on this?

Well, as AI develops, as everybody or as many people in industry have long anticipated, that AI will be one day being able to do some creative work, which has happened already. And from the legal standpoint of view, I guess,

we probably need to consider how to draw the line, you know, in terms of what is creativity, what is originality, and how to sort of, you know, divide in terms of the legal ownership

or the proprietorship of such original content. So this is a challenge for the legislature and also something for the industry to consider. Thank you very much for joining us. Bai Xianyuan, partner of Grandown Law Firm,

That's all the time for this edition of World Today. To listen to this episode again or to catch up on our previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today. I'm Ding He in Beijing. Thank you so much for listening. Bye for now.