Episode 1606 - Adrien Brody
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Find your push, find your power with Peloton at onepeloton.com. All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckniks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF, one of the originals, audio only, all interviews done in person, one-on-one, no one else in the studio. We're analog, baby. This is old school.

Yeah, that's the way we do it. And we always have done it. I don't know, man. You know, I guess the trend is to build a TV studio and have several people in there operating things, making sure that people are situated properly and they have to make sure that they look all right. And I think it's kind of a deterrent to a type of intimate conversation. But, you know, what do I know other than this is what we do? This is the organic conversation.

Audio only. Picture it. Feel it. Just take it in like that. You can kind of do other things and just sort of focus on the voice. There is something about it. There is something about the nature of audio that is very intimate. And it's one of the reasons why we still do it this way. And for those of you who don't know, I am in my home, in my sort of converted garage, the new one, not the original one.

riding my own faders here, no one else in the studio with me, surrounded by these sound panels that some kid made me, a few pictures, a few guitars, some leftover bits and pieces from the original garage, which was cluttered with all kinds of shit. And it's just one-on-one here. I don't know, for me, it's very engaging and sort of honest for me in terms of how we go about doing things online.

with this show. And today I talked to Adrian Brody. He came over. It's a very, it's a very odd thing that the, the way people come over here and it always has been, I mean, now everyone's very adept to, uh, to the podcast landscape and everybody kind of has a podcast, but there is still something interesting and disarming. And I think genuine about coming over to a guy's house, seeing where he lives and,

Using the bathroom over here in the garage, maybe having me make you a cup of tea or something. It's still a very kind of personal environment. But Adrian came over. He's actually the youngest person to win the Oscar for best actor back in 2003 for his performance in The Pianist. He's been in movies like King Kong, Midnight in Paris, and so on.

And five Wes Anderson films as well as a television series like Succession, Peaky Blinders, and Winning Time. He's now in the new epic The Brutalist, which is out now. Pretty stunning movie. A pretty kind of confounding premise and scope of a movie. I mean, the thing I had no idea came out of nowhere. Hopefully I'm going to get to talk to that director. I like talking to directors. I had Mike Lee on.

in here a few days ago. You'll hear that on Thursday. Mike Lee, truly one of the greatest directors, totally unique in his process and what he's able to capture and what he's able to get out of actors and in the collaborations that he makes. There's a real honesty to it and a real pathos and a real comedy to it. Yeah, I guess I'll talk more about him on Thursday, but geez, what an amazing honor it is to speak to

actual true artists. You know, there is still a world for that. There is still a significance to doing fearless art. And it's a shame that the work of true artists is largely underappreciated. And it really packs the biggest sort of wallop in terms of connecting to your humanity and in terms of being challenged in a way that's provocative and

and accepting that challenge. I think we're entering a time and we're kind of living in a time where the thrust of culture is about ridding the culture of people that the dominant culture feels

make them uncomfortable or are challenged by their presence or their life or their being or their personal expression because it interrupts the mediocrity of what is ascendant. It's not a great time, difficult time for artists in terms of, you know, finding the courage and also delivering their art in a pure way that they want to.

Want it to be taken in and then to have it confronted or wrestled with. And on that note, someone I knew not well, a kind of singular guy and I believe a real artist. He'd been on the show and we had had lunch a couple of times. Jeff Baina has passed away.

He died by suicide. He was a film director and a thinker. He's married to Aubrey Plaza, and it's a devastating, sad event. I didn't know him well, but I was very impressed with him, and I had a couple of nice conversations with him. I enjoyed his movies. And we had lunch. I can't remember when it was.

And he knew my partner who passed away, Lynn Shelton. And he brought me a book. I didn't get to it, but he brought me a book called The Work of Mourning by Jacques Derrida. And it seems to be essays about friends and acquaintances and people that had impact on Derrida and his process of grieving them. And I just, it was a little dense for me at the time, but I've sort of been...

re-engaging with dense material and in light of the tragedy that's happened in relation to Jeff, I'm going to take a look at this book. But, you know, my heart goes out to the people in his life. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. Confounding in some ways to people about that. And I don't know. You know, as somebody who is overly sensitive, you know, a bit self-centered, who lives his life

in a creative pursuit and a pursuit for something new and original and trying to generate things and reflect on life and culture in my chosen forms. You know, the weight can get pretty hard. The weight can get pretty heavy. I really don't know his situation other than it is now tragic and sad and

But there's a lot of people out there that, you know, the weight of this stuff, it's very hard to compartmentalize. If you have some kind of inability to control your empathy, or even if you're empathetic a bit, or even if you're sensitive and nervous and scared and you have a hard time compartmentalizing everything that's coming at you, it can get pretty bleak. And as somebody who has, you know, been through periods of suicidal ideation, you know, I used to do a joke about it.

which is, you know, what I do, you know, it's important to know that there is help out there and there are people to talk to because many times the feelings that you're having will pass. And, you know, a bad day is a bad day, a bad hour is a bad hour. And sometimes, you know, depending on, you know, how isolated you are or in your feelings or in your life, you know, the inability to let those things pass and take action

tragic action is fairly common. But know that there are people that care about you and there are people that are willing to help you and there are places you can go. I mean, you can just call 988. That is the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline line.

I don't know. You know, I just find it's important to be honest with this stuff. I mean, you can be cynical about it. You can frame it however you want, but it's nothing trivial, whether it's depression or just you've had enough. I don't know. But I know it's common. And as things become more frightening and people become more isolated, that this is it's going to increase.

And I know that a lot of times I get emails from people who, you know, who get some comfort from me talking about this stuff publicly. But know this, you are not alone. And I guess this is as good a time as any to say that this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com.

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I do believe I am in some sort of burnout. I do believe that, you know, I've hit a wall. I have a lot of work to do. I have many jobs of my own choosing, which is good. But I'm not one of these people that ever really acknowledges or acknowledged or even understood what burnout is. But apparently it's a real thing. And, you know, you can't just snap out of it.

You know, I've been going pretty hard for a lot of years in a lot of different ways. And, you know, on top of the way my brain works anyways, it's a little difficult. And in the face of what we're heading into culturally and politically, it's a little difficult. And I'm old. I'm an old man. So on top of just the regular kind of challenges of doing what I do in the many areas that I do it in, there's this feeling of like not being able to keep up.

And then there's the feeling of like, why would I want to? And then there's a feeling of what would I do? And then there's a feeling of like, well, maybe I should just exercise more. Maybe I should eat something. Maybe I should, you know, do more nicotine. Like at some point, something's got to give, but that's a choice one has to make. I mean, Jesus Christ. I, I'll be honest with you. You know, my brain is overloaded for a lot of different reasons. I hit zero.

I hit two parked cars the other day. I'm not proud. And it wasn't like I wasn't texting. I wasn't driving. I was parking my fucking car and I hit two parked cars. I mean, gee. And there was this moment where

It's this parking lot that's always a problem. It's at my gym and the spaces, they're like an illusion. They're not quite big enough for regular sized cars and it's always a hassle. The lines aren't set right. The spaces in between the cars aren't set right. And I, you know, I want to park as close to the, you know, the door of the gym in the enclosed lot as possible. It's just the nature of my brain. So I'm trying to get into this space and I kind of swing into it and I bump into

the car to my right in this space to the right of the space I'm trying to take. But it wasn't just a bump. It was a crunch. And I'm like, oh, fuck. And I have this car. I mean, I've had it a long time, but I would say that I hit the curb, you know, turning into my driveway 80% of the time. I just don't have, I don't quite navigate this car properly. I don't know why. It's just a 2019 Avalon. It's not difficult, but it's just,

The nature of it, and it's always been that way. I've scraped up cars before like this. But I bought this car and it's hard and I know it's not nothing. So I back up and I try to, you know, re-angle and drive into the space again. And as I'm driving in, you know, I'm looking to the right to make that spot and then to the left...

You know, there's a car right there who someone has just parked. And I just see my rear view mirror kind of drag, you know, gently across a bit of the surface of that car next to me, leaving a mark. And so that's two. That's two down. And then I back out. And then the woman who's in that car who was just parked, it gets out. And for a minute there, I think she's the parking lot attendant coming to, you know, monitor the situation, right?

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. I got to leave a note or whatever. And then I realized, oh, it's a woman in that car who's my rear view has just scuffed her paint job a bit. And then I tried to pull into that space again. I'm like a fucking idiot. The stubbornness involved. I'm like, what is wrong with my brain?

And I back out and she's like, well, you can just turn your hazards on and give me your insurance. I'm like, for, you know, for that, there's barely anything there, but fine. I said, oh, I'm just going to park over there. She goes, I don't think you're going to get into this spot. And I'm like, yeah, that's clear. Thank you. And I drove it around. I parked across from where we were and she wanted my insurance. So I gave it to her. And then, you know, I looked at the other car that I hit and it was, it wasn't dented, but it was scuffed pretty bad. And I thought, well, the right thing to do here is leave a note. So I left a note.

And that guy got back to me in a couple hours. It was his wife's car. And I told him, look, you know, I could just pay for the damages if you figure out what they are. If you want to go through insurance, we can do that, whatever you want to do. And then I went to my guy to see the damage on my car. My fucking bumper just cracked right off just about. And, you know, what that says about my car, I don't know. But, you know, the whole undertaking of having my head up my ass is going to cost me like, you know, two, three grand.

Point being, where the fuck was my brain? You know, granted, I didn't sweep well that night. I was going to the gym. But this thing about burnout or about kind of, you know, losing control of your sense of sort of space and time and self because you've got so much overloaded in your brain is a real thing. And now I'm going to, you know, it's going to cost me a bumper. And apparently I've got, you know, pretty good bumpers in place in terms of plowing through life.

But man, I just it was one of those moments where like this is a relative bottom in terms of hitting one in relation to being a little bit detached from being overwhelmed or or just, you know, having your brain on fire. So I got to I got to deal with that and I got to get my bumper fixed.

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So this movie that Adrian Brody is in that we talk about, among other things, and his wife, The Brutalist, is definitely worth seeing. It's a special movie. It's a big movie. It has an epic feel. It was shot in a big format on film. And it's a very surprising and powerful film.

And I'm a fan of Adrian's. I'm happy he came by. The Brutalist is now playing in theaters. And this is Adrian and I talking one-on-one, alone, in this space that was once a garage that was built in 1957. The house is older. But anyways, this is me talking to Adrian Brody. This looks like

I don't know if you've seen my movie Clean, but this looks like my spot, but it's inspired by me, but it looks like Clean's little workshop. Oh, really? Yeah, because these look like shotgun shells almost, and I always got red and some earplugs and the knife. WD-40? Yeah, I mean, but he was like...

He was like, he could make improvised weaponry. And this looks like a little bit of a setup, like you could turn this into something. Yeah, I'm not quite doing that. I know, I appreciate that you're not. Well, when you do something like that, do you... You do a ton of research on it. Is that what you do? Yeah.

So like, I made up all kinds of wonderful, I'm not wonderful, but pretty intense weaponry. Did you, did you actually make some weapons before you did the thing? Um, did you, any, any functional weapons that you did? Uh,

That you made? I don't want to incriminate myself. No, it's not. I'm not insinuating that you have them. I don't have them any longer, but I've made things. Yeah, when I was a kid, I learned. I taught myself how to make them. A lot of this stuff is just remnants from the old studio, which was a very sort of deeply cluttered garage that was basically the history of my life.

So there was stuff everywhere. Yeah. It's my life. I relate to this. Yeah. My, yeah, my house is very much like that. Well, now it's upstairs in the office room, what was in the old garage. But I can't let go. What do you keep most with books? No, I have an art studio. Oh. And so I paint a lot and-

and do a lot of quite layered textural work. So I accumulate a lot of materials, both found materials and inspiration that sometimes never even gets used and lots of paper bags. Sure. It looks pretty intense. When you say layered, are we talking like schnobbling? A bit more, yeah. I mean, very...

lived in, not quite like plates. No, not plates. They're amazing. I love the plates, but not layered. They are amazing. Not layered in the sense that you...

Although they're quite strategically layered, they're not evident as such. They feel like they're very lived in. So while I'll be working on canvas, I don't want it to really look like it's a canvas work. I want it to look like it's something right off the street. Right. So do you kind of like paint the bags and stuff into the surface? Paint bags, draw on them, do separate works on them sometimes, do, you know, do...

add materials to the surface. Like some early Jasper Johnsy kind of shit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And... So some of that... Rauschenberg kind of layering on it. Right, right. They're very... More Rauschenberg. More Rauschenberg. And, you know, Basquiat's a big influence as well. Oh, yeah. Did you know him? Just his written text. I didn't... My mother photographed him. Yeah. And...

She has this wonderful photograph of him in his studio. My studio, I shared a... I was roommates with an artist friend of mine for years on Great Jones, which was the block that Basquiat's studio was. So we were just down the street. The restaurant? By the Bowery. Oh, yeah, by Bowery and Great Jones. Yeah, Bowery and Great Jones. That's where it was. Those are good buildings. Oh, it was so great. I had a studio there on the Bowery as well, which...

I ended up becoming really good friends with a wonderful artist, Alfredo Martinez. Good. Who's a New York artist who actually, ironically, forged Basquiat's and sold them as Basquiat's and ended up being incarcerated and served quite a bit of time in Rikers for it and...

immensely. I mean, he went on a hunger strike and... Did he make it through? He did. He's not around now, unfortunately. He had a bunch of complications. But he, by the way, is another inspiration. This all comes full circle because he was a master at weaponry and obsessed with weaponry, guns, machine guns. He used to have...

Way back in the day, a studio in Soho. And in the basement, it was some wealthy... I don't remember the whole story about it. It was some wealthy patron's setup. But he had converted...

this lower level in the basement to a shooting range. Oh, wow. Everybody would go down there. I'm sure they were all pretty lit. Yeah. And then just go shooting machine guns. Reminds me of... But Alfredo is an amazing guy and a wonderful artist. I have a bunch of his work. I wonder what made him... I guess it was just money to decide to get into the forgery racket. I think he was broke. Yeah. It was... I mean, everything comes down to that ultimately, especially for artists. I mean, he...

He wasn't selling his works for nearly that kind of money. He got desperate. Yeah, he was desperate. And he was very talented. Yeah, well, guns on the Lower East Side, I think that Burroughs was down there with shotguns and handguns. Yeah, he was, exactly. I remember being very inspired by him when I was younger. Oh, yeah? Which was like one in particular? You know what it is? Because it kind of resurfaced, but I had this...

An LP. I had a record. Was Laurie Anderson and John Guarno on it? Was that it maybe? I don't remember. I was very young. It was early days in LA. Of him reading. Of him reading. Yeah. You know that one? Sure. There's only a couple. I love it. I don't know where it is, but yeah. And I loved, I would listen to it again and again. And I loved the sound, the way he talked around, whatever. And they were like comedy bits. They were. I don't remember him being that humorous. I remember finding him, you know, I did a beat in a,

Beat era movie. Which one? I played a... It was called The Last Time I Committed Suicide. Oh, yeah. It was actually with Keanu Reeves. Yeah. And Tom Jane. Yeah. And Claire Filani. And it was a very interesting movie. And I played a character that was kind of loosely based on... On Burroughs? No, on Ginsburg. Yeah. Keanu was based on Kerouac and I guess...

Oh, Tom played a Neil Cassidy-esque character. They were all kind of fictional characters. The romantic hero of all of them. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, but those Burroughs, I think it's either they call me Burroughs, his one record, and then there's a triple record with him, Laurie Anderson, and John Giorno. And they each have a record of their own in this three-album set.

But yeah, he just, it was his voice that blew me away too. Because, but I saw, I grew to realize that they were kind of bits. Sure, sure. Like, you know, that whole Dr. Benway business with, you know, get me a new scalpel, nurse. Yeah, for sure. He was aware of what he was doing, but he... Menacing. Yeah. But like, let's talk about this new movie first, which I don't usually do. Yeah. Because I think it could probably get us other places. Sure. In that, I don't know that I've seen a movie like it in a long time, if ever. Yeah.

But when I talk about it, I seem to only be able to compare it to There Will Be Blood. That's I mean, that in and of itself is such an epic compliment. But it's an epic movie. And it's an epic movie. But I do see those parallels as well. Right. Absolutely. About, you know, sort of power. Yep. Yep. And the greed and corruption of that. Yeah. And how.

Yeah. The dream of overcoming this and then ownership. Yeah. Ownership and dominating. Yeah. Very similar in a way. Yeah. It turns into Van Buren. Yeah. In a lot of ways. Yeah. I thought that. Cinematically too. Yeah. And the music. Right. Feels very kind of very emotionally evocative and then jarring. Yeah. And very much a character in life. And just the space. There's something like it takes some, like, I don't know where that this guy came from, this director. Yeah.

But, you know, and I know he hasn't done a ton, but to have the confidence to create that kind of cinematic space is just this rare thing, man. Yeah. And when you were going into that, I mean, did you know that he was capable of doing that? I had a lot of faith in Brady. Yeah. Brady Corbett is a filmmaker and he had done two films prior. Yeah. You know, one was Vox Lux, which is a very cool movie. Yeah.

And Childhood of a Leader, which is also a very, very interesting film. And you can tell in his earlier work, which, you know, as an actor, you can definitely tell that you're in the hands of someone who's going to give you space to do interesting choices and that has a style and an understanding of film. Yeah.

So I felt very confident that – and he'd also co-written The Brutalist, the screenplay with his wife. Where does that even come from? I mean, he wanted – they found the idea of writing a film, making a film about an architect and architecture very interesting and fascinating.

In particular because there aren't many films of that. Yeah, but because you don't think, like, man, this is going to be riveting. You don't think an architect. Right. But he's... I think there's something... Yeah. No, this is that. The film is completely epic. I'm blown away by it. But I do think he knows how to delve into... I think he understands the...

the psychology of all of this very well. Also being an, an artist being striving and the hardships of being a filmmaker in this business and being an auteur filmmaker and the obstacles and, um, the complexities of having a benefactor, having to be, you know, raise money to do the work and then everything you want to do, um,

and desire to do cannot be compromised if, if you have a vision, but ultimately that's how it's personal. I think that's very personal to him. Well, I mean, but it's very interesting what it speaks to in terms of class, in terms of the immigrant experience, the immigrant experience, how, you know, and the, and, and the arts in general, but also antisemitism. That's right. You know, the, you know, how the WASP aristocracy saw the Bohemian, uh,

Sort of, and the envy there. Yeah. I mean, like, it unfolds very slowly. Yeah, the cachet and kind of bartering on the artistic...

contributions of immigrants yet never really including them or making them, even if they do assimilate, they're never treated as equals. Never. Yeah. I mean, like I read a biography of Rothko once and it was crazy what those guys would do to pass. Oh, yeah. But, you know, when he was at wherever it was, Yale, I think. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they weren't even letting Jews in, really. Oh, yeah. But, like, I think there's some sort of parallel between, like, his life. I mean, Rothko's, like, the best, right? Yeah, absolutely. But when you're preparing for this role, I mean, what are you doing? Like, you know, because you were a research guy. Mm-hmm. And, like, I didn't realize. I thought the guy was a real guy. Mm-hmm.

but it must be based somewhat on the idea because modernism in and of itself. And then at the very end, when you kind of, you know, there's a, an award presented to you or a tribute, you know, the interpretation of why your character created those spaces given. And, and the way he, you know, he doesn't, he, you see him as an immigrant, not necessarily as a survivor, but it seems that in his family, the Holocaust looms large. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah, it is. It is not just physical surviving, but the, the,

his tenacity to, to just pursue this, this goal and life's work to leave behind something of great meaning. And that, that the influence, and this was a theme that, and Brady speaks about this quite a bit about how post-war psychology is deeply influenced post-war architecture. Yeah. It's been brutalism in particular is quite, uh, in antithesis of the, of the errors prior and, and,

And resulted, many of them were of Jewish descent and also came as the result of cities having been bombed out through World War II. And parts of London were massively rebuilt with government-sanctioned capitalist works and Czech Republic and et cetera. I mean, it just unfolds.

You know, so there's a slowness to it, which just builds the intensity. It was a difference between a slowness where you're like, oh, fuck, when's this going to end? And a slowness that somehow resolves itself and maintains attention. And then it all builds, you know, to, you know, I don't want to, there's no way to spoil the movie, but there are parts of the movie that are profoundly surprising. Mm-hmm.

you know, in a violent way that I found that to be insanely jarring. Yeah. I think it's intentional. I mean, I did too. But you don't see it coming, but, you know, because usually you think. But metaphorically that, you know, that serves to illustrate the dynamics.

between classes and wealth and judgment and that guy's own repression. Of course. Oh, man. And I didn't feel the time go by. No, that's great. And it was about right for the intermission. You got to pee. Yeah. It worked out. Pee or think or do both, but it's nice to have a moment. It's nice to have a moment.

have a chapter close. Sure. Give you a little bit of time to read through it and then comes a new phase. It's really, I think it's a wonderful, I hope people take advantage of that and like try and see it on 70 millimeter in a theater. I did. I saw it at the Vista. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I regret not watching that screening. I, I, yeah, I, I didn't realize how, first of all, that theater is beautiful, but I just should have watched it.

I've become a big fan of the IMAX. I hope they give people an opportunity to go to IMAX. I believe they will. Because, like, that's really... You know, IMAX...

as a device, I don't, I don't, whatever the technology, it doesn't matter to me, but that to me, when you go to an IMAX, it feels like the movies we saw when we were kids, when, when movie, when it was one screen at one theater and you go in and you're, I remember those days. Also, you were a kid, so everything was, I knew that. Right. Yeah. Just that. I remember those days too. It did feel like IMAX. Right. Watch an action film in, in like, does your folks ever take you to radio city? Uh,

I don't know. I think, yes, I have been, but I don't have... That's what I felt. That's pretty epic, yeah. Yeah, I felt the first time when my grandmothers took me, like, we're going to Radio City, and to see a movie that large? Right. It was crazy. Yeah, I would just go sit in the front row with my little homeboy friends, and we'd cut school and sit literally in the front row, which gave you that... Yeah, yeah, that effect. Poor man's IMAX perspective, because you'd just be right there in the front where it's just...

your whole peripheral vision is screen. It's wonderful. But this is like the second way. How many roles have you done that were kind of Holocaust adjacent? Well, one was not adjacent. One was, one was the pianist. Yeah. One was, I mean, that is a very different film. I do in, in retrospect feel that that the work that I had done to prepare for that character, all the research, all the, the actual shifts and body weight and learning and, and,

the sacrifice to understand that time in history and the sense of loss of so many individuals of that time in history definitely gave me great insight into what Laszlo is leaving behind and having the character has... Oh, yeah. He lived it. He lives it. In a way. And it's all the past. Right. Now this movie is this...

Coming to America, immigrant struggle, the clash between the American dream and what the reality is of that. And drug addiction? And drug addiction. So it's a very... It's a much more contemporary film. But you had that... But I had all of that to draw from. Yeah. I found that invaluable, honestly. It was so helpful. When you did that movie, though, like... Because I've been trying to talk about... Well, I do jokes. But...

But the capacity to even widen your sense of empathy to a place where it's big enough to really take in, you know, what fucking went on during that time, it's almost disabling. I was pretty much clinically depressed for a year after making that.

Really? Yeah. I had an eating disorder. I was, I mean. Once you lost the weight, you're like. Well, I was starving all the time. It was insatiable. Yeah. I really, you know, I. Oh, so you wanted to eat constantly. Yeah. I was eating even on the shoot, which they wanted me to gain the weight back rapidly because we shot in reverse chronology. So I had to lose it all before we started. Right. And then kind of.

at one period, gained quite a bit back. So, but I was, I was, I was starving. I was eating all the time. It's interesting that the range of Jews you've played. Like, because I forgot, like, I was going through this stuff and I remember watching... I played a lot of other characters too. No, but like, but very specific, like, Leonard Chess.

That's right, yeah. You know, because I watched that movie. I remember that movie because I'm a big fan of that period. And, you know, that's... I forgot he was Jewish, to be honest. Well, I mean, I'm not trying to pitch you. No, no, I got you, but it is interesting. And Houdini, too. That's right. But all of these characters come from

sort of similar Jewish experience. That's right. That's right. Well, and you know, many Jews have come from similar Jewish experience, but you had the opportunity to time travel. We don't all get to do that. I mean, generationally speaking, you were like either immigrant or just post immigrant. Yeah. So, but you're, you're not fully Jewish. You know, my, you know, the, the other connection that's wonderful on the brutalist is that my, my mother is a Hungarian artist, immigrant. And my mother and my grandparents, her parents, um,

They fled through Vienna under a bed of corn on the back of a cart or a truck. And at that time, it was already a bit late. A lot of people had fled already and they were keyed into it and they were shooting. They had to wait till there wasn't a full moon, I believe. So there's too much light and they were the...

They were shooting flares at the border to illuminate the sky, to shoot people crossing the border. Oh, my God. And then she didn't get passage to the U.S. for another two years. How old was she? She was 13. Wow. She had to leave her friends. Does she have...

What's the trauma impact? I mean, I think it's quite substantial. I mean, I think it shaped her very much in some ways, very moving ways. In some ways, it shaped me and my yearning to represent characters who are outsiders and who...

Whose circumstances are much harder than not only my own, but most of our own. And my mother has become a very beloved photographer. You know, the Museum of Modern Arts acquired her work. She's, you know, studied by photographers and...

She used to work for the Village Voice for many years, but she has numerous books and really. She's a beacon of inspiration for me, honestly, and has directly led me down a path to discovering acting and being comfortable in front of a camera, being the subject of my mother's lens the whole life. And it was a very safe place. Yeah.

I'm really so grateful for it. And I think it shaped her. If you look at her imagery, it's quite haunting and quite sensitive. Does she do the full spectrum of stuff? Yeah. I mean, it's very hard to describe. It's largely black and white, but wonderful portraiture. But really...

She's captured New York and the New York of my youth. The 70s? The New York that, yeah, that inspired filmmakers like Scorsese and Coppola. Broken New York. Yeah. Gritty New York. Broken, gritty. Well, yeah. Yeah. Like where anything was possible. Nostalgic. Yeah. It was very rough and dangerous. I'm very happy to be out of that time and...

The trains were really dangerous. And all those were like, but down where you had your studio, that was like up for grabs. I mean, all those people that bought those buildings back then. Oh, man. Who still live in them. Oh, yeah. The artists. Yeah, well, we didn't have the resources for it. They...

I wish my mom had gotten an amazing studio in Soho. Did you live in New York? We lived in Queens, yeah. We lived in Queens. What part of Queens? In Woodhaven. Oh, yeah? I was in Astoria for a few years. Yeah, I like Queens. It's nice, yeah. Yeah, you're a little out of it. You're close enough. Yeah, it's a little... Yeah, it's... But it's...

It's a real melting pot. Queens still retains that New York. Does it? Yeah. It hasn't shifted. It's changed, but it hasn't shifted like areas of Brooklyn have become unrecognizable. I never thought Queens would do that. It's the final frontier. Maybe Staten Island. That's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to gentrify Staten Island. They wouldn't let them. Queens hasn't.

Quite. When I was in Astoria, I was amazed. I mean, block to block, it was like, where am I? And I would get off the train at two in the morning and there'd be a whole family shopping for vegetables. I'm like, are there no rules about putting kids to bed in other countries? No. No. There aren't. They probably worked nights and came home. I don't know. I don't know. But it was always like, it was always sort of a...

Kind of electric with a lot of international energy, which I found to be pretty great. Yeah. And it's not... And real people, really. Like, real in the sense that they're good working people that contribute to the city, contribute to the... The real immigrant experience. Yeah, that's right. And that's... I relate to it. There were all these Italian kids I grew up around, like...

Everybody was trying to be, some were affiliated, but they were all acting like they were. It's like everybody's seen every Scorsese movie I grew up in. They all thought. Yeah. I watched that documentary on David Chase and the Sopranos when they did an open casting call for one of the parts. I can't remember which one. And every Italian guy in the fucking New York area came in. They were all real guys. No, they are.

Yeah. They are. So how did you, was your father artist too? My dad is actually an incredible artist. He's, he, he taught public school. Like we didn't have any, we didn't have the means for anyone to indulge in just being an artist. My mom, my mom fortunately built a career as a photographer, but she too went, yeah, a photographer. Right. But I mean, she was not just journalism, but she, she, she was able to work. She's an artist. Yes, exactly. But she was able to have a staff position and work, but, um, you know,

She received a Guggenheim Fellowship very young. That was the only way they could even afford the down payment on the house. Like they had nothing. And what does her work tell you in terms of, you know, what you were talking of earlier and the tone of it, that there was something haunting or something? Well, she has this enormous capacity for, she has tremendous empathy and she has this wonderful sense of humor and

And I, for these incongruous things that speak to the complexity of life or something incredibly dangerous is happening, there'll be another element in the frame that shows something that's the antithesis of that, that's wonderful. Or she has just very dreamlike images. Yeah, yeah.

But they are very much her language and they are her vision. And I grew up steeped in those imagery. Literally, you know, negatives hanging in the shower, film canisters in the tub, rinsing the chemicals, the smell of the fixative and all those chemicals in the darkroom and old record racks filled with...

sheet after sheet of 8x10 test prints and I'd be crawling around looking at all these images my whole life and going on assignment with her. It was really wonderful, really, really special. It also teaches you that there is a way to have an understanding of photography as an art form

In that, not unlike an auteur director, that, you know, there is so much more to it if you have the eye and you have the depth and you have the impulses to generate a point of view. Yes. You know, because anybody, it was always sort of this, the argument of photography once they introduced the Brownie camera. It's like, well, if everyone can do it, how do we establish it as an art form? Yeah. That's what's happened now with the... With the phone. With the phone and...

technology to improve upon and just the data that's on an image that you can just infinitely fix it. Sure, but when a real photographer shoots a shot... Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's a singleness to it. Yeah, what was that wonderful war photographer who... Who made movies? Spielberg, actually. I can't believe I can't think of it. Yeah, that's all right. It happens. It's going to happen more. I know. Yeah.

I just finished doing a play, doing eight shows a week in London. Dude. And I didn't know if I would be able to retain. And I can do a 14-page scene. I didn't know I had to do an hour and 45 minutes every night without going up on my lines. And you did all right? I did. I didn't fall once more. I mean, I spun a couple around here and there, but they were all good saves. And it was really quite...

A lot of pressure. Had you done a lot of theater? I did. When I was young, I did quite a bit early on. And then I hadn't been on the stage since I was a teenager. Oh, wow. It was really something. I play a man who was incarcerated for 22 years on death row for a crime he didn't commit. Yeah. It's a true story. Right. And as he meets this abolitionist, this woman who was working with an abolitionist group, she comes in and he's asking her if she's a lawyer. And she says,

Says that she's a poet and he found that amusing and disheartening because they're not going to get here exonerated. And he had a line about, yeah, I like Charles Bukowski as much as the next guy. And I couldn't remember it for a second. And the fact that I hadn't remembered it

just before that six seconds before I had to go on, uh, it locked it in that I didn't know it. And I went on there and I, I, I flipped the line around that one day. I was like, yeah, well, I like poets as much as the next guy, but yeah, I managed to do it, but I couldn't get in. And it, it didn't come back until I, I got out of the, off the stage. Oh man. Wild. Yeah. How you just locked it in that you weren't going to get it. Yeah. Because I panicked. I felt, I felt, I felt it shut the door. Yeah.

It was awful. So you said your mom got you into acting? Yeah, she had an assignment to photograph the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York. While she was there, they had a program, a youth program. Yeah. And she saw all these kids doing what I do every day. And, you know, I was always, I'd come home, I'd come home from the train and I'd,

encounter something I'd re reenact it yeah tell some story right had some problem with this guy and I was always like every guy I had beef with you know it was like it was something I tell the story pretty animatedly yeah and uh I think most kids do but there was something that she she keyed into that yeah and thank goodness honestly because I just loved it and uh when'd you really started I well this was

This was around 11 or 12 that I started taking some classes. And then a friend of hers is a photographer and his wife was an actress. And that's the only actor I think we knew. And she was kind enough to get me an audition for the children's department at her agency. And I went with a monologue audition. And then I,

they wanted to represent me and I went out and I booked some work. I did a, I got a, my dad took me, I waited around the block on this long open call, literally around this factory building block, I remember it, standing on the street.

for a day player role with Coppola on New York Stories. I saw that, yeah. I mean, yeah, it was a long time ago, and I booked it. And so I worked with Francis for it. That was, I think, my first gig. I thought I turned this off. It's on silence. Got a problem with my phone. I have no idea who that is, but they keep calling. It's an unknown, but... But it's not spam? You don't know? I don't know who it is, but I've seen that number enough, and I don't pick it up. I don't know who it is. Yeah.

I don't pick up those usually unless they're local because then I'm like, what's going on near me? Yeah, no. But if it's a private number, then it's like. Yeah, I got this. There's a reggae song I like and the guy's like, gangster, no answer, no unknown number. And I'm always like, every time I see it, I'm like, yup. You never know. Don't pick it up. You never know. So you work with Coppola. You were 12? Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. Do you remember him? Oh, I do. Yeah, I do. And, you know, I'm friends.

I'm friends with Roman Coppola, his son. And also with his nephew. And with his nephew. Yeah. And I've been

I've been friendly with Nick Cage, but I loved that. It was memorable. He poured a bottle of cheap cologne all over me because the girls in the scene had to react to my character coming into this kind of party scene. And I joke because it was like he forced me to do some method acting. So the girls weren't having to act. They could just literally smell me waft across. So they didn't know it was coming? Yeah.

They knew it, but he was that, he had the understanding that that can only help. Yeah. And he didn't give a shit if it humiliated me as a 12-year-old boy walking into a bunch of girls smelling like a, you know, a bollock perfume broke on me. Do you find that the impact of the directors you've worked with has changed the way you approach things? Oh, absolutely. Like every time? My whole understanding of film and acting and

Hopefully, if I ever direct, I have so much, so much that I've learned from masters. Yeah, I mean, what, you got Polanski, Malick, Spike. Barry Levinson, Ken Loach. Oh, yeah. Yeah, many, many, many really amazing filmmakers. What was it like to be on that Malick movie? That was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. It was, it was...

I learned a lot. Yeah? I learned a lot, yeah. It was a 22-week war movie with just the boot camp alone. We did, you know, seven, eight nights in the jungle eating nothing but MREs. Oh, yeah. Was that too much, though? No, that wasn't. I mean, it didn't have a wonderful...

end to it all. But I did have an amazingly, um, enrich, enriching life experience. And I love the guys. And I got to make friends with all these wonderful movie stars and, uh, they were good to me. And, you know, I, I had thought Sean Penn, you know, had a real pivotal role in the movie. And I, I thought, Oh, he's going to really be a hard ass with me. You know, I'm, I'm

New guy? New guy. Yeah. The military advisors they had for the boot camp did do a number on me just because they thought it would be helpful, I think. Yeah. So they ostracized me and played all these mind games. And I did it. I ate all of it. I knew it was coming. I knew it. Yeah. And all these like Australian extras. They put me in. They took me out from the group of the core actors that I was with and they put me in with these Australian extras. Yeah.

Then they ostracized me and I slept in a tent alone with poisonous fucking funnel webs and just did it. Did it all. Did it. Did it. And it helped your performance? You put your weapon out? Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't know it because I'm not in the movie at the end of the day, but yeah, it did help my performance. You didn't get any screen time? Not much. Not compared to what it was. I mean, I was playing James Jones' persona, the author of the novel, and then they just made a different movie in the end. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

That doesn't happen too often. It does happen. It does happen if you work with him, but it doesn't happen too often. Well, he doesn't work that much, so. But I think it did happen with other, I think it happened with Mickey Rourke came down to Guadalcanal and shot for three weeks in the Solomon Islands. He doesn't even appear. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you guys handle that because I'm doing some acting and I have no idea. You have no idea. Yeah.

I mean, I know I just did a lead in an indie, but I know I'll be in that one, but I don't, you don't know. I was a lead. I was the lead of a major movie, you know, for Fox and I wasn't in it. Come on. Yeah. It was based on, yeah, it was based on, it was, it was based on James Jones. He, he,

The novel, the second epic novel after From Here to Eternity that won Montgomery Clifton an Academy Award and Sinatra. I don't know if they won, but these were epic, epic. And you just... It's all right. It's old news. It's old news, but going forward, I mean... It's valuable. It's good. It made me understand a lot of things, first of all. Yeah. Don't believe...

Don't believe anything you read. Yeah. Yeah. Because that was already in print as the lead of this. But it made me understand. I felt I really related with as I played a soldier in the movie who's struggling with his own sense of inadequacy or witnessing other young men having more courage. Yeah. And it

The trauma of war, again, in a very different context. But the psychological impact of all of that, of witnessing, you know, your friend getting blown up and feeling guilty from being discharged. Yeah.

And all these wonderful things, kind of survivor's guilt, even for a soldier to get out and really feel like he's leaving his men behind and desperate to get out earlier. And the whole shift and none of that's, you know, in the final product, but is very much a big part of Jones's novel and what I portrayed. And I in the fact that.

I was cut out of this movie and it wasn't something anyone could really understand or know the circumstances or know what I'd given for six months of dedication. And the biggest coup I've ever had in my life for the most meaningful thing that I've devoted my time to. It was pretty harrowing and publicly humiliating. And I felt, wow, this gives me just a little bit of insight into what it must be like for these poor guys who come home

Giving everything, you know, for our country or for what they handling the responsibility they've been given. Sure. And then they come back and, you know, they have to act like everything is normal. They have to reacclimate and go to a, go to their work, get another job, deal with the kids, find, you know, and, and, and,

No one could quite understand that sense of loss or struggle or PTSD. Sure. And that's a very real thing for so many people. Yeah. And so I was 23 at the time and it gave me that. Yeah. Gave me that. And I cherish that quality about being an actor. And over most other things. Of course, we all want a career. Yeah. And we all want to be respected for our work. Yeah. And be able to earn a living doing what we do. But...

That's the crux of the journey. That's the contact that we're all trying to make, to walk away from it with a sense of understanding, to open others' hearts and minds to perhaps being more understanding or more aware of their own complexity and maybe a bit more. And that's what this movie's about. I mean, really, for me, to think of...

How disadvantaged so many people are just by being foreign. English being their second language. I remember my grandfather, he was so smart and cool and...

handsome and charismatic and he could hardly get work because he sounded so his English was poor and he sounded like Laszlo I built that character around the sounds I remember of him from my youth yeah and I remember how hard it was on him to pick up again and try and support my my grandmother and my mother yeah and how how how hard that was how how

how financially they were so strapped because of these obstacles. But also that's like the way you're describing the actor's job, that there are people that approach it as a job and are okay at it and good enough to work. But the difference between a guy who's doing a job and an artist is relative to your personal pursuit of the truth of a character. ♪

So it seems like your experience, that's the essential part of your approach to acting is to, you know, put this thing into a context of a real person and feel the feelings that are that guy's personal truth. Mm-hmm. And then you come out of that, you know, exhausted or changed forever. Mm-hmm.

But I do think it's a choice to approach the job of acting like that. It's a joy. It's a privilege, first of all, if you can. That's it's taken. You know, I have I have lots of I've done so many very meaningful and interesting projects. But it's it's even that even when we talk about Thin Red Line. But, you know, those those are epic moments.

things to experience, especially as a very young man, like, you know, uh, all of those were big lessons in, in, and by the way, I often refer to that understanding of loss from my own personal loss in, in, in my career at that time and the potential risks and the pressures I was under that gave me also insight into, into not taking things for granted and, and an understanding of loss that

paved the way for the groundwork I began doing in the research for The Pianist because I wouldn't have been the same person had, you know, getting that movie was like getting Titanic. Yeah. It was a big...

big come up and then it wasn't. Anyhow, we don't need to harp on how long is it? It's half my life ago. It's over half. It's half my life ago. No, but it had a hell of an impact and then you go on to work with Spike in the next movie. Yeah. And that was the whole thing. Which partially, partially, I think I got

because I was going to be the lead of the Thin Red Line. And there was a lot of hype. Yeah, but then you're in New York. You're with Spike. Oh, yeah. It was great. It must have been like home turf. Yeah, it was very exciting. Although as a character, I knew nothing about punk culture, which was amazing to research. My character was a punk rocker. And you had to dig into that? Yeah, yeah.

It was great fun, New York at that time. We did a show at CBGB. Oh, you did? Yeah, I had a blast. That's good. It was so fun. That's exciting. It was really very exciting, yeah. But it all kind of, like, but over the, because, you know, I have to assume, like, was there a point, because, like, I feel like I don't see you, like, this movie is the first time I've seen this in succession, but before that, I mean, like, was there a point where you had enough of it? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

I think a lot of people have, I mean, we can all relate. If we're going to be honest, sure. I also have been doing this my entire life. Yeah. I have my own expectations and criteria. Yeah. What are they? Well, you have to give everything you can give to any role, I think, as an actor. I mean, you, you know, you have to be willing to put

All that you have. You know, it was wonderful doing this play. And right before we'd go on, one of the, they were wonderful actors, my whole group of guys. Yeah. My fellow performers on the play were really wonderful, wonderful people and very talented. And Michael Fox, one of the actors, would always say, leave it all on the stage. Yeah. And I do that in every movie I do. And in some movies...

It's less apparent or less... It's not held up in the same way that Brady presented the opportunity for me. And the breadth of the character and the humanity is apparent. We chronicle 30 years of his life. And I have a lot to offer. And it is...

To offer. It's not just for me to, you know, I don't, I don't choose work for any other reason than I think I have something to give. Yeah. And I have something on that journey would be very, um, enlightening in some respect or has some social relevance or it has, uh, it could be just comedic and fun and whatever, but I have something to give. I won't take it just because, Hey, that's a great job. I, you know, I'm, I'm very fortunate and I'm, I'm,

I'm fortunate I've been working long enough that I don't have to do that. But I, I, I, anyhow, so I, I had not found, I had not found something like this in just so long. What since like the pianist? I would say on this level. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And that's not a lack of interest on my part. Sure. It's just, and it's not a lack of interest on other people's parts. It's just the nature of things. And even this movie, uh,

Had several iterations. It was possibly going to be with another cast. It took Brady seven years from its inception. I read this five and a half years ago. It's just not easy to...

To get there. And also this kind of- And then when you get there, it is very meaningful. Yeah, and these guys, it's not like these movies are made that often. Right. Right? Right, no, they're not. Yeah. And that's part of Brady's struggle. Yeah. And part of the storytelling of the film about the quest of an artist and this relationship. But you do choose to do, like, you like to work with Wes. Oh, well, Wes is, first of all, he's a genius and he's-

Very fun to work with. And yeah, and those sets are fantastic. And, you know, especially that in reflecting upon Darjeeling Limited, which is the first film that I had done with Wes and talking with Jason about it.

We traveled all through India together. We worked on a moving train. We shot four or five hours each way on a train, an active train track. If you didn't get to the track by whatever, 5.30, 6 in the morning, you missed the set. I mean, it was a very exciting life experience. And all of his movies are quite unique. And I'm grateful for him to have given me so much opportunity

and the ability to do all these comedic roles that are quite fun, even if they're villainous or even emotional. I think...

Darjeeling Limited is quite an emotional film and it's hilarious and there's a lot of broad comedy in it. But he's just, in terms of what makes a difference on a set to be working with him versus somebody where there's more pressure or more ego. There is a lot of pressure with Wes. There is pressure and everybody knows their responsibilities because just the precision, they're quite elaborate, choreographed, moving master shots.

It's a big responsibility. Yeah. It is. And there is a certain style and tone which everyone knows they have to live within the same universe that he's created. Yeah. And there's the specificity. And there's pressure to remain honest and find things and do things.

something extremely precise at pace. Yeah. But it's a fun challenge. Yeah. And he does it very, very well and beautiful. Yeah. And unique. Yeah. So unique to him. But he also surrounds himself with wonderfully creative people like Francis Ford Coppola showing up

you come home from set and Francis is there at the dinner table and with Wes? Yeah, with waiting about to have dinner but we're there because Roman Coppola is a frequent co-writer and collaborator with Wes and he'd be on set and you know, Brian Cranston and Scarlett Johansson on the other side on the Meteor movie? Yeah, and just on any of them on Asteroid City. Meteor movie, yeah.

And, yeah, just. That was a really funny movie. Yeah, it was cool. Yeah. Really fun. Yeah. I played a play, a played director. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because it seemed like the movie was originally about the actor's theater in a way. And then it'd be, it kind of gets, it's a, it's an interesting movie for him, I thought. Yeah. So when you, like, how did the winning an Oscar affect your whole sense of self? Did it make a big difference?

Because that's what the pianist... My sense of self? Yeah. It's a big question. I mean, I think growing up in Queens, it was very important to me not to change in the wrong ways. Uh-huh. And... You were aware of that. I rigidly adhered to that. Yeah. Partially because...

All of a sudden, all this attention and praise and access to things felt very incongruous. And I didn't recognize it. Yeah. And so it didn't feel, I don't know, didn't feel accessible or deserved or authentic. It was something that I didn't trust about it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Whether people newly discovered me and loved me or were moved by me, it was a bit too much to take because I had spent 17 years kicking around as a working actor and I was still pretty young. And it was vastly different. But it's given me great joy and perspective and access to a lot of wonderful opportunities and roles and I've worked with

I've met so many amazing creative people as a result of that, that I would never ever would have met. Sure. So I'm very grateful. My goodness. Do you consider yourself a character actor? I, I don't know what that means. Right. You know what that means? I, I, I feel like there's, there's a, I, I, I'm an act. I'm, I'm an actor. Yeah. And, uh, my responsibility is to, um, bring a unique sensibility to,

to all the roles that I play. And I feel that to call someone a character actor somehow diminishes their, their value or potential as a, a movie star, as the protagonist, because the character actor is not the protagonist. And I feel the protagonist should be very much a character and definitely as interesting and as much of a character as the nemesis. So, uh, it,

I've always been, I feel like I have, like they hold equal spaces for me. Well, that's good. Sure, but you don't get hired, you know. So tell me a name of some people or an actor or two that you think are great character actors, like what comes to mind. Ned Beatty. Okay, wonderful. Harry Dean. Yeah, okay. Like I can picture many in my head. Is Gary Oldman a character actor?

Now it becomes a little different. You know, like it's an interesting thing because some people get more interesting as they get older because the roles are different. I mean, I saw De Niro do a little part in that movie Ezra and De Niro in a supporting role is the best fucking thing in the world. Because that's really what you're talking about. I think generally when you talk about characters. But is, is, is. I'm not saying he's a character. No, no, no, no. I know, I know. I'm saying, but is De Niro in Godfather Part Two not a character? No.

No, no, no. Isn't that like a character? I guess what the difference... But there is something about, if you say Ned Beatty, you know, how often has Ned Beatty had his opportunity to really shine? Like in every movie. I'm not saying... I didn't quite complete the thought. No, no problem. I'm just saying...

He does shine. Yeah. But to shine in, in, with the level of the, the space. Sure. To be honored as a protagonist. Right. And it's, it's less so. So you're saying that the, and I don't like to,

Nobody should be relegated to a position because they're interesting looking, feeling, giving. The lead should not be homogenous, homogenized, right? Right. And that's all I'm saying. So you're saying that the classification of a movie star... I'm saying, don't you pigeonhole me. Right. You got a movie star and then you got the funny looking guy. Or, well, you went pretty far with it. But the...

The movie star cannot, he has to carry the movie. Yes. That's the definition. Right. Does that individual man or woman carry the film? Yeah. And are you committed and invested in that individual's journey? Yeah. Then that person is the movie star. Right. And the business will come up with a lot of terminology other than that, but that's the movie star.

For sure. Yeah, I mean, I think it is sort of, now that we've talked about it, a dated classification. But I always say it with reverence. I never, it's never meant to be. I know you do. I just went, you asked me a question and I thought, hmm. But something you thought about. What's the answer? Oh, yeah, of course. Well, because I get offered many interesting parts because I can come in and bring that. Yeah. But I don't.

And I'm very experimental in my work. Yeah. And very open-hearted in my work. I don't need to be the movie star. Right. And I never have acted that way. Yeah. But I sure would not relinquish my yearnings as an actor and an artist to have access to the roles that should not be precluded because of an idea of what...

a style of, uh, or a kind of work that I am capable of. Right. Right. Right. And that's, that's the, that's the way the definition of that or the, the way I would quantify why that's a, is this a, a source of frustration? Is it in your career? Is it, I mean, is it something that it's a part of the, it's a part of the journey. Look, we, I, I,

There's in excess of 100,000 talented people in the union alone that are desperate to have opportunity. That's a big number. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of hardship. Yes. A lot of sacrifice. Right. So for me to sit here and talk about my frustrations isn't important. Yeah. Or relevant. I've been kicking around a long time. I've paid a lot of dues. And-

I don't really have to prove much to myself. Yeah. And I'm so grateful that I've earned that. Yeah. And so whether others see me clearly or not isn't as frustrating as it used to be. Yeah. But it is a source, it was a source of frustration because look how long it's taken even to get this role. And this role is remarkable. Totally. But, you know, it's not like, and it's not like,

The role that might be written for what you might think is a blonde-haired, blue-eyed superhero might come my way as easily either. Yeah. Right. And I'm not frustrated by that. But it is something to consider. Yeah. That's all. That's the nature of the business. Exactly. Right. Exactly. So do you find that when you paint, which seems to be something you put a lot of time into...

It quenches the thirst. It quenches the creative yearnings and it gives me creative autonomy, which is very nurturing because the only way an actor...

gets opportunity is through collaborative work. Yeah. You know, unless you're creating that, you're really reliant upon the material and others to employ you and also bring something incredibly special to get out of the sea of content that we're inundated with. Yeah. And so it's a different path, but it is

It is access from the same well, and I feel very content immersing myself in any real creative endeavor, whether it's solitary or in a team sport like making a movie or a play. I have to assume that with the painting, just the groove of it...

It's completely dictated by you and your impulses and your vision as it evolves. And it, you know, you could do a little today. Exactly. I was going to say what you're prepared to give is, yeah, you open that tap when you're prepared for it or when it calls.

you don't have that luxury as an actor. No. You can be dealing with some pretty heavy shit and you've got to be really funny at 6.45 a.m. Yeah. You know? Not so much with a canvas. No. My humor might not be a very funny painting that day. It may not even be a painting that day. Well, I thought... I like all your work, but this movie was great and it's fresh in my head. Thank you. This is... I mean, this is special. Yeah. I'm...

I'm in awe of the movie and the response. Yeah, I got to see it again. Oh, man. Me too. Because I love it that much. And I don't say that too often. Not that I am self-critical, but I don't go, oh, I really would love to see my movies or movies I'm in.

But do you see all your movies? I've seen everything that I've done. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And I've never seen my work in Thin Red Line. It was never offered to me to see. I actually was thinking about it yesterday because unfortunately someone asked me about it as well. But I thought how interesting it would be to see footage from that because we shot a whole movie. And what are the possibilities of that happening? Oh, no. Nill. Yeah.

Wow, that's kind of a weird mystery because you wouldn't believe how many actors I talk to that don't watch their stuff. I've spoken to actors who say that. I find it really interesting. And what do you recall? What are they? Why? Why wouldn't they want to at least see it to understand or learn from? Yeah, I mean, you got to learn from it. It's a good question. It's like I don't want to look at the monitor unless I really distrust something. I don't want to see the monitor because I have a vision of how I feel. Yeah. And how I feel I look.

As the character. I don't want to go see something that will take away from me. Yeah, it looks like me or I didn't think I carried that quality in this moment. And I don't want to become self-conscious. But after the fact, you owe it to yourself to process the good and the bad. Yeah, I would think so. Somewhat objectively. I just think maybe because of the notion that you don't really know

How it's going to cut together or you don't really... But to me, it's like the question is, is the work enough to where whatever it becomes doesn't necessarily matter? No, it's not. I mean, sorry for me. I mean, I can only speak from my own personal taste and experience. I mean, the work, the experience is enough for a...

personal growth. For sure. But it's not enough to navigate without perspective, I feel. Oh, I see. Right? It's not to go and... Sure, it's lovely if people really respond to your movie. Yeah. But I'm actually very introverted after seeing a movie. I don't really like to get up and...

I wouldn't like, I have a Q and a to go to later, but I don't like getting up and speaking or even seeing the movie at a premiere and then speaking to everybody in an after party. I'm very, I'm much too sensitive because each, each finite moment of that film, each scene, each certain things, they all stem from a ton of personal discomfort usually. And, and, and,

So you're reliving the trauma. Reliving, yeah. You are reliving the pain it took to expose that vulnerability or expose the horrors that you had to feel. So you're not just objectively witnessing a scene. You know what you went through and you know what you studied and you know what you tapped into.

in the recesses of your heart and soul and mind to get there. And that comes flooding back. And then you,

The lights come up and you have to like go to dinner with your agents or you got to chat with the producer and some lovely person. And you're there shell shocked and they don't think you're very grateful. That's interesting. So maybe that's why some people like just show up for the Q&A. Oh, yeah. I don't really enjoy –

Like Venice was remarkable. We had the film premiered in Venice. The Brutalist premiered in Venice and we had a wonderful ovation and, uh,

It seemed to shock everybody. Yeah, sure, sure. Like no one knew what was coming. They didn't know what was coming. Yeah. They ushered us out, you know, it's so funny because someone just brought up, oh, you got a 12 minute standing ovation. I think, whatever, it may have been a little longer, whatever. But they made us leave because it was such a long movie that they had some other bigger movie stars in with another movie right after us. And that's,

the typical thing at those, especially Venice is they count the minutes as some kind of bragging right. For the director and the film, they actually had us leave as they were applauding. Like it wasn't like people stopped and moved on. They just asked us to get out. I thought I was laughing. So they low balled it with 12. They low balled us. It's funny. It was really funny. Well, great work, man. Good talking to you. Yeah. Appreciate it. This was fun.

There you go. It's quite a quite a career that guy has had. Seems a little a little still a little miffed about the thin red line situation and Terrence Malick. But but that guy works and he's good. So go see The Brutalist. It's now playing in theaters. Hang out for a minute, folks.

A year ago this week, we had our 1500th episode of WTF, and I had one of the best conversations of the year with Paul Giamatti. The thing about those books is like, oh, look at these books. Oh. And I'll underline, dude. Oh. I'll underline. Sure. But I retain nothing. Nothing. And it's almost like just having the thing itself. I'm somehow going to absorb something from it. Well, that's what I realized is that when you're reading it, it feels like you're thinking it. Yes, that's true. And then...

And then it's over. But you're not. No, totally. Then it's gone. It's gone. It's gone. And I have that. I have a ton of science books. Oh. Physics and all of the quantum shit. But I understand. And I try. And talk about a bookmark at about 10 pages in. And I'm done. You try with physics. Oh, I try with all kinds of science. I remember when I was younger when chaos theory was a thing. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. All of that kind of shit. I got to get that. Love.

Oh, this is fascinating. And I get the gist of it, and that's sort of good enough. Yeah, but the gist of a lot of things. Yeah, and just so you can, when people bring it up, you can at least nod in agreement without lying, knowing that you read it, but you can't really engage in the whole conversation. Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. You can listen to that episode for free in whatever podcast app or platform you're using to get all episodes of WTF ad-free, the new ones and the archived ones online.

sign up for WTF Plus. Go to the link in the episode description or head over to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's some of the guitar that I do. ♪ Boomer lives, monkey and Lafonda, cat angels everywhere. ♪