Episode 1616 - Ariana Grande
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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called WTF. If you're not aware what you're listening to, that's always been the name. I don't know that we knew it'd be like a brand. For years, we've been delivering it. For years. What's happening? I don't know how it happened, but it happened. Ariana Grande is here today. Only one of the biggest stars in the world,

She's one of these people, I don't know her whole catalog. I don't know a lot of it. I got up to speed, but one thing I always knew, even seeing her for 15 seconds, is that she's one of these profoundly talented people where the gift is so great, you kind of think it might come from outer space. I'm not calling her an it, but the gift. Maybe she's from outer space. I don't know. I knew when I got the opportunity to talk to her that

that I would have to take it because she's a magic person. You know, it's rare. I don't know what your lives are like or how often you get to meet true, truly magical people. I've met a few, even with all the 1600 or so conversations I've had with people. The magic people are kind of, they're kind of rare, real magic people.

I was talking to, who was I talking to about? I talked to James Mangold the other day. I'll put that out later about Dylan. He's another guy where it's, this is other worldly magic that comes into these people with it's a combination of talent, but also just people are somewhat possessed with magical ability, but Ariana works hard. It it's paid off. She's one of the biggest selling global pop musicians in history.

And now she's an Oscar nominee for Best Supporting Actress for Wicked. And when I got the opportunity to talk to her, I'm like, I do what I usually do. I got up to speed as much as I could. I generally with a musical guest that I'm not, you know, and I'm not a teenager. I didn't grow up with her. But generally what I do with musicians is I'll listen to some of their very first stuff and

And then I'll dip into the middle a bit. And then I really listen closely to their newest stuff so I can sort of see where they've come from and where they are now. And I did that with her. And I had some experiences with a couple of her songs. We talk a bit about it. But needless to say, it was special talking to her because she's a special person. That's that.

Hey, if you're in L.A. in the area and you want to help out with the L.A. fire relief efforts, I wanted to get you up to speed on something this week. My old manager, Olivia Wingate, is working on three benefit shows at the Elysian Theater here in L.A. That's today, tomorrow, and Wednesday.

It's Samantha B's Wits End Show, which is a live trivia game show where two celebrities go head to head. It's been running in New York for two years, and now it'll be in L.A. with the proceeds going toward the fire relief charities. Kirk Bronneler, Kristen Schaal, Doug Benson, Rachel Scanlon, Joe Mandy, and Reggie Watts are just some of the comedians participating. You can go to the Elysian Theater website at

Elysian theater.com for tickets again. That's tonight through Wednesday at 7. PM each night, each night. I was up so late last night. You know, I was watching gone girl, which I've seen before. And somehow, even though it's that movie, I didn't really remember how it ended quite. I watched it cause I was going to, uh, I was preparing to talk to Carrie Coon, who is a astounding actress, uh,

And I watched a couple of heavy movies. I got, I got, I got boundary problems, man, with movies. Is that possible? I have, I have boundary issues with movies. I can't, sometimes I watch a movie and I get so immersed that I can't separate it from my life. Like I watched another one of her movies, the nest. And it was like, you know, there's some, there's some animal tragedy in that. And I couldn't not like, it's one thing feeling emotions, but,

But to sort of have emotions that linger and pervade your entire being. I mean, I try to watch some happy movies. They don't do the same thing, you know?

So I'm going to be starting out in Iowa City at the Ingler Theater on Thursday, February 13th. That's this week on my tour. Then I'm in Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on Friday, February 14th. And Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theater on Saturday, February 15th. Next week, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel on Thursday, February 20th. Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, February 21st.

Louisville, Kentucky at the Baumhart Theater on Saturday, February 22nd and Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 23rd. Then I'm coming to Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then New York City for my special taping. Some of you are asking about tickets to that. They are not on sale yet.

They are not there yet. But for all the other ones, you can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

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Maybe this is off topic. I don't know. But I've got a pretty new refrigerator and it's pretty sealed, it seems to me. And all these little fucking bugs keep getting in there.

Now, I talk about a lot of things on this show, but I know that's one of those things where I'm going to get a lot of emails with theories about the bugs, where they come from, why they're getting in, unless they just squeeze through the seal, or maybe they're coming from food, but there's nothing in there that has the bugs. And I don't even know if they're bad for me. They're just a little sort of unseemly to open up the fridge to dozens of little bugs. I don't even know what they're eating. I had an apple cut in half in there. They didn't seem to want to touch it. What do they want?

What do the bugs want from me? Why me? Man, it's been a long time since I've been a guest on things. I somehow pulled out of that rotation. Like, I don't do almost anybody's podcast, and I feel a little rusty at it. It's kind of weird. I did a guest shot on Adam Ray's Dr. Phil show the other night, and it was weird. I was nervous. I think I told you about that. But the other day, I did a Zoom appearance on...

Dana Carvey and David Spade's podcast. And that was fun, man. It was fun. Again, I got to keep talking to people. I see Spade pretty frequently at the comedy store, but just to engage with the two of them and fuck man. There are some guys that say some lines and they're just lines where I'm like, holy shit. That is so funny. I'm never going to forget it.

You know, I'll let you watch it because I don't want to throw him under the bus in any way. Because I don't know if he'll use it. But we were talking about a movie that is notoriously kind of bad and panned. And we were talking about it. And I was like, I didn't see it. And I asked Spade if he had seen it. He said, I couldn't get through the poster. Yeah.

I couldn't get through the poster. Come on. That's a fucking, that's going to be wedged in my brain forever. I'll just visit it when I need a little chuckle. I guess that's what good jokes do.

Brendan reminded me of a joke I used to do that was similar. And I'm like, why did I stop doing that joke? Because it was too simple about watching a movie, a bad movie. And I guess the line was, it was so bad, I almost walked out of my house. I can use that for any movie. Why do I forget the good, simple jokes? Why don't I have more jokes? Did I tell you the story about taking it easy? The new Marc Maron? Well...

In this time of trouble and darkness and perhaps the end of even my ability to speak publicly from the point of view that I do, come see those shows. It might be the last tour before the restrictions, but I just, I got to lighten up a little bit, right? Why has everything got to be so urgent? Huh? What's wrong with me? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com.

Coming up in this conversation with Ariana Grande, you'll hear us talking about staying on track with mental health goals and how she handles it in the high-pressure environment she's in. That's because she knows what a lot of the red flags are when it comes to her life and how she needs to be proactive about them before they become a problem. Therapy can help you identify the red flags as well as the green flags that point you toward healthy practices and relationships. If you want to give therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great way to get started.

BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving more than 5 million people worldwide. And it's easy to switch therapists at any time at no extra cost. You don't have to be a pop superstar to identify your green flags. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back.

Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash WTF to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash WTF. Oh, yeah, relationships, right? I guess the last bad one I had is just a friend, just a friend. I thought we were pretty good friends, and he just was like, you're out.

It's rough. My brother's going through that too. Cause yeah. How many friendships do you have in life? Especially later in life. And for some reason, one of my friends was like, yeah, I'm done. And I'm like, why? And he told me, I'm like, that's not even a real thing. Whatever. Huh? Better help. Okay. Look, I don't want to ramble on too long. Ariana Grande is here. I mean, come on, come on. Ariana Grande is here.

She's up for Best Supporting Actress at the Oscars. Wicked is still in theaters and available to rent on digital platforms. And she's here right now. This is me talking to Ariana Grande. Last night I was like, you know, I did a show and then I, you know, I didn't know how to reward myself. So I plowed through a pint of non-dairy Ben and Jerry's. Oh, wow. Then I had to go to the gym to deal with that.

Yeah, that's how I feel like that makes, that's balance. That's the balance. Do you do that? What do you do after shows?

I don't, it's been so long since I've done a show. Yeah. I'm trying to think. You don't have a post-show routine of sort of rewarding yourself with marginal? I mean, popcorn. Popcorn and berries. That's like my favorite thing in the entire world. That's it? No, I mean, not always, but that's my favorite. Popcorn's good. That's my favorite snack in the entire world. Like air pop? But yeah, I mean, maybe my favorite food. Popcorn? I love it so much.

Popcorn and sweet potatoes and strawberries. Oh, yeah. Sweet potatoes. Where's that come from? How'd you pick that one up? Being vegan. And they're just kind of like a fabulous thing to have around. Right? Yeah. They're the best. And mushrooms and tofu. Yeah. Yeah. I'm vegan too. Two years. Yay. Almost two years. Fabulous. Yeah. That's so exciting. What inspired? What inspired? Well, I talked to Cynthia about this too. It's so funny. I talked to Cynthia and I think we talked about food for an hour. But it's...

Oh, my goodness. Wow. We're all too similar. So when you guys are on set, you probably, you know, you can share your snacks. Yeah, there are many berries. Berries? Many berries and cashews. What made me do it was, like, I wanted to see if I could get my cholesterol numbers down a little bit. They weren't that bad. But then, like...

I like cooking for it. I like the whole thing of it. Yeah. And once you can figure out how to get protein and how to balance your food, it's great. But once you figure it out, it's quite easy, right? When did you start doing it? Well, I've been vegan for 13 years. So, like, since you were a kid almost. Yeah, I think it was...

Yeah, like 19 or 18. Was it an animal thing? It was an animal thing, yeah. Really? What was the moment? Like you looked at a cat and realized... No, I mean, it was always something I wanted to do, and I sort of gradually sort of inched my way towards it. And growing up in an Italian household, it was kind of really not good. Yeah, it was kind of not... Good thing. Yeah.

Very, very, very disappointing. To your mother? My grandparents, my mother, everybody. Yeah. So red meat was the first thing to go, and then chicken and everything else. That's so funny because Italians, I mean, it's all cheese and meat. I know. How Italian were you guys? Very. I mean, super. Super.

Super Italian, yeah. My mom's side is like Abruzzi, and then my dad's side is Sicilian. Really? Yeah. And you grew up where? In Boca Raton, Florida. Oh, my grandma lived there. Of course she does, or did. How did your parents get there? Because my grandparents wanted to move there. Oh, so it was sort of like a retirement-y kind of thing. Were they like New Yorkers? Yeah, Brooklyn. And my dad was...

about the fishing. My dad likes to fish, so he was excited about the idea. Does he still fish? He does. He loves it so much. Really? It's his favorite thing in the world, that and painting. He paints? Yes, he paints. He's amazing. I think that should be his full-time job.

Do you have his paintings in your house? Yeah, I do. I have several pieces of his. Like, what is it? Is it figurative, abstract? Some of it's abstract and some of it is like he'll make beautiful fish or something. We paint together sometimes. Really? Whenever we have the chance to have like a day together. You just set up a couple easels? We'll do like a little paint and sip type thing. It's really sweet.

And so, but they were, like your grandparents were full-on Brooklyn Italians. Full-on Brooklyn Italians, as Italian Brooklyn as they are. And do you have like brothers and sisters? Yes, I have a brother. We have different dads, but he's my full brother. You know what I mean? How does that work out, the different dads? Your parents aren't together? No, my parents aren't together. But we have a 10-year gap, me and Frankie, my older brother. And I feel like that was great. So someone was married before? My mom was married before me.

Had my brother. Yeah, and then married your dad? And then married my dad and had me. And now they're not together. And now they're not together, but they're best friends. It took 18 years. Yeah. And it took me forcing it. I forced them to communicate again. When you were 18? No, when I was like 20, it was my 24th birthday. And I remember just kind of being at this just,

where I was just like, you guys, I love you both so much. It's been such a long time. Figure it the fuck out. Yeah.

Like, hello. It's been 18 years. And you're not even in the house anymore. No, I'm long gone. I'm 80. Please get over it. Yeah, yeah. And they did. Really? They're best friends now. I can't separate them. It's the best thing in the whole world. I guess they just had, like, some sort of beautiful conversation or realized that, like, how much they love me is so much louder than whatever nonsense happened way back when. Well, that's so sweet. Yeah, it really is beautiful. And, like, if only they had the tools that I feel like...

we have now this generation with like therapy and embracing like that maybe they could have it could have happened sooner but it was just the perfect thing and now so they're able to reconnect whatever brought them together in the first place and they're truly so close like it's the sweetest thing it makes me really happy yeah

Yeah, and I'm like, it's like it did something to my brain, too. It was like really a beautiful, healthy thing. So, but when you were growing up, there was tension all the time? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, who gets to spend time with you and all that stuff? Yeah.

Yeah, tough. Yeah. Very tough. So that must be a nice arc of closure, even though you can't get back the anxiety you had when you were a kid. But at least now they're OK. Yeah. And at least it turned me into an artist, perhaps. You think so? Maybe. Maybe. No, I was always an artist. That's bullshit. I was always an artist. No, I mean, no, I think there's something to that, depending on what you come from, what drives you to do that thing.

You know, as opposed to just be a person who just does a job. Yeah. There's some sort of, you know, need for I don't know what. Right. The void. Yeah, the void and the love. The void and the love. Yeah. And kind of being able to put that pain somewhere, I think, maybe. I don't know. Because I find that, like, people always say, like, as a comic that you're, you know, looking for love. And I don't know if that's true because if I am, I still resist it. Yeah.

Like, I'll invite a little love and then as soon as I feel it, I'll push back on it. Well, then you still get to be, you can still continue with the comedy then. Sure. Endless, endless source connection. I did an acting job with, I was in a scene with Sharon Stone and I had to cry. Mm-hmm.

And I told her like, how did that go? Well, it took a minute, but I told her all my tools are for not crying. And I'm not, I don't have tools for crying. But sometimes that's the most beautiful thing to watch, I feel like. I feel like that's like the most moving thing. When a closed up person lets go? Yeah, when a closed up person is trying really fucking hard to not cry. And then they do? Yeah, and then like, or they don't, but you see how hard they're trying. It's,

I don't know. That's really moving, too. Yeah. Well, as I get older, I cry at everything. Oh, good. For dumb things. Me, too. You do? But I'm a cancer. Yeah. What does that mean?

You said that like I'm going to go like, oh, well, that makes sense. What is it? Do you know your sign? Yeah. What are you? Libra. Okay, cool. What does that mean? I don't fucking know. Okay. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It means you're balanced. You've got the both sides. Yeah, but that also means indecision. Yeah. It means that like everything's torture. Yeah. Minor decisions. Yeah, I don't know. No, I don't know. Yeah, cancer. With cancers, I'm very emotional, very watery, very creative. I like my shell.

Yeah. But I do think I have a soft shell because...

you know, I'm very open as well. I feel like I have, I sit on the cusp of like really being a very protective and guarded person, but also really wanting to let the whole world in. Yeah. And like, you can't see, but my arms are above my head. She's letting the world in right here in the garage. So I sort of sit, I sit in the middle. But that's interesting because for some reason I feel like

When you just open your arms like that and let the world in, my first thought is like, it's going to crush me. Yeah. Yeah. But you think like it's going to lift you up. I don't know. Sometimes. I don't know. The world crushes you. I think, I think, you know.

You never know. Well, you're like a singer, and that's so... Because I was listening to the newest record. Oh, thank you. It's interesting, because when I think about the songs that strike me, I don't think it would be the single. I don't know what the singles were on that record, but that one, too. From Eternal Sunshine? Yeah. What were the singles? Okay, so the first single was Yes And, which was kind of like...

It was just kind of a dipping a toe in the water, like setting the stage. Like that was the only reason that that song could exist on the album would be if it came as like a hello, we're here, coming back. And then We Can't Be Friends. Yeah. Yeah, that one's my favorite. But the weird thing for me is like because of the chords or the music, the one at the end, Imperfect For You. Mm.

is the one that like I was like oh that hit me oh that's one of my favorites it is yeah no like ever in my whole discography thank you really thank you yeah it's like it's a great song thank you so much and it's got it's got that nice kind of almost that that build with that goes up and then there's the one odd chord yeah that you know changes the melody yeah yeah I like that song thank you because like I I look I didn't grow up listening to young old men that's really okay yeah

That's really quite okay. And then when I get the opportunity to talk to you, I'm like, oh my God, she's the biggest pop star in the world. And I'm like, I need to know some songs. No, no. What kind of music do you like? I like all music. With newer stuff, there's so much coming out all the time. And I don't know, when I look at your discography and I look at who you collaborated with, I'm like, I don't even know who she's singing with.

I mean, I don't know any of these people. Are these people famous? I don't know. But it's just old man shit, you know? You're making me laugh too hard. You're agitating my cough. This is very bad. But it's not dismissive. It's just I can't keep up. No, that's exciting. Yeah. Well, also, it's just things come out so rapidly these days because the attention span is so...

That's right. And it seems like you were able to capitalize on that pretty early on, like, or at least be savvy to it because of your generation. Like, even with Taylor, like, I don't like I know she's the biggest, you know, concert draw in the world. But like, I can't I'm like, I don't should I know? Should I be? And then I it's funny because I'm doing this whole big bit in my comedy act that involves the Taylor Swift song.

Oh, really? Yeah. I want to come see your show. Yeah, you should. Where do you live? I'm bouncing around from L.A. and New York all the time. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm going to tape an HBO special in May. Cool. Fun. I'll come. Yeah. I want to see. I'll let you know. Please. Yeah, it's been pretty funny. I did a show last night. But there's a big moving part about crying and about a Taylor Swift song. Anyway. Did you use it for a sense memory for your scene with Sharon Stone? No, I used the thing that – the trigger of all that stuff –

And, you know, I think you've dealt with some of this, too, is that, you know, I lost my partner a few years ago. She passed away. Yeah. Thank you. But but the whole thrust of the bit with the Taylor song is like I do this hike, you know, every once a while. Yeah. I hike a lot.

And, you know, I listen to music, you know, and I talk about grief like you don't know when it's going to happen. Right, right, right. You know, you have it in you. Oh, yeah, at all times. Yeah, but, you know, once you're through the initial trauma of it, you can kind of compartmentalize it. Yeah. But sometimes it comes up. Randomly. Right. And then you've got to just let it happen. And you're like, oh, fuck. Right. That thing.

from however long ago is like saying hello to me. That's right. And you have to allow it. You have to allow it. So the whole thrust of the bit is like I'm doing this hike and I'm like, why is Taylor Swift so popular? Like I'm an old man. I'll just download her record. And then you're crying. Yeah, on the hike. You're like having this religious experience on this hike. It was the song Bigger Than the Whole Sky. Wow. Yeah. And so, well, that was that whole thing about

that. And did it trigger like a beautiful release for you? Yeah, that's well, that's the thing that you have to because as I said before, you know, a lot of, you know, I hold down a lot. Like I have control of my emotions and I stifle them a lot when I should have them.

But with that particular one, there's something beautiful about it. With grief? Yeah. Because it brings you to a place of remembrance and also connection and also just the honest feeling of loss. And you've got to let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. But it's heavy. It's very heavy. Yeah. No one's going to get out of this thing without experiencing it one way or the other. I know. But one of the things that...

But it's so strange because people are so scared to talk about it or to allow it in any sense. I did my whole last special about that. Yeah. About dealing with it through comedy to provide some relief because there is no...

Cultural dialogue around it. None. Yeah, because people are terrified of death. Yeah. So when, you know, it's even how we treat elderly people. You know, you don't want to see it because you know it's happening. Oh, my God. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because there is that. It's impossible not to have that feeling when somebody you love passes away that, oh, well, I'm going to it's going to happen to me.

Right. It's selfish, but I agree with you. There should be a place where people can handle it because we're built to handle it. Are you afraid of it, of death? Of death? Well, I don't know. I think about it all the time. How are we here already?

I had a feeling because I've listened to your show and I'm a fan of yours, but I knew I had a strange feeling that we would, you and I would meet, say hello. They talk about that. I would meet one cat. Yeah, two, you met two. And we would jump into like the depths of everything we've ever experienced. I'm so sorry for asking you if you're afraid of death.

No, no, no. I mean, like, I think it's the most, you know, it's a pretty honest question. And I mean, the entire, you know, global economy is built on people being afraid of death and being distracted. But when I think about it, sometimes I think like, well, that'll be, you know, it'll be relaxing. Like, you know, I think I'm ready for a rest, you know, but I generally like to wake up. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I'm having a coughing fit. No. But... Yeah. I think I am afraid of it, but I do... I think I can acknowledge it as an inevitability. And I think coming to peace with it, which you don't have to do. You're young. And I'm not that old. But there is a point where you're kind of like walking with it on a certain level. But, I mean, I feel like I've kind of experienced...

many things that have put it at the front of my brain and made me spend some time thinking about it. Right, the fragility of life. Yeah, the fragility of life and kind of like where do we go and what happens and how do I feel about it? I don't know. I mean, there is sort of a there is sort of a

of freedom and acceptance. Yeah, if you can do it. If you can, you know. Yeah. But I love life and I'm a person who loves being here. Do you think about like the after thing? Are you like a heaven person?

I am not a heaven person. Yeah. I think I'm a kind of like hope to see again, hope to see again. We change energy, but we're kind of here and we're all part of it. Or maybe there's like a will I be a grasshopper next time type question I ask myself. That's what, yeah. But I think that's more of a like I wish, like I hope I'll be a ladybug or something. People do that. Or a seahorse or something. I did a whole bit about that, that, you know, in the weeks after she died, this idea, somebody had told me that, well, her, she,

No one ever leaves. Their energy is still here. That I really know. Yeah. That I feel like I know to be true. Yeah. Do you know that to be true? I do. The joke on that was, like, I prefer in human form. For sure. You know, I'm going to...

The preferred form is human and alive. But then I do this whole thing about hummingbirds. Like, I saw hummingbirds, and I'm like, oh, my God, it's Lynn. And then the joke is the next day there was, like, four hummingbirds. I'm like, oh, fuck, which one's Lynn? You know, that kind of thing. Right. But, yeah, I mean, let's get back to your voice. Sure, yeah. Yeah.

We're 10 minutes in. What I found interesting and that I don't know that I always fully recognize is that even when you were a kid or kid-ish...

Thank you.

And before you started singing professionally, were you the kind of person that would walk around the house singing constantly? Oh, yeah. Totally. I sang from the moment I could speak. I don't know. I don't remember a time that I wasn't singing. But do you remember early on, who were you singing? Well, I think...

Whatever my mom was listening to. What was that? So there was a lot of Judy Garland, Madonna, Barbra Streisand, Whitney Houston. Really? Divas. We lived in a household where we were always playing musicals and divas and like Rocky Horror, like camp, like fun. Oh, so that was your mom's thing. My mom loves, she loves divas and also like Halloween. Yeah, yeah. So I was never like, I was never sheltered from horror or like R-rated things or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, you're just seeing all those movies? No, yeah. My favorite movie when I was two was Jaws. Like, I was really weird. Oh, my God. I was strange. But no, the singing was always present. And Judy Garland's Somewhere Over the Rainbow was a part of that. The Wizard of Oz was a huge part of my life when I was a little girl. But your mom had some of the concert stuff of hers and other recordings of Judy's? Yeah, and Barbra Streisand and NSYNC. Wow.

Wild. So have you ever done Judy Garland songs? Have I ever? Well, Somewhere Over the Rainbow has had...

Yeah, of course. Well, now you're part of that mythology. Yeah. It's very crazy. Yeah. Because it's just meant so much to me my whole life. Like, it was one of my—my grandpa always used to ask me to sing that song, and he was my number one. I mean, he was just my best friend, my favorite person. Was he like a fun old Italian guy? Yeah. He was a fun old Italian guy who was always in a suit and tie. Yeah.

Always. And Bruno Mollies. And he was just the kindest man in the entire world. And what did he retire from? What was his life? So he actually ran a company that he then passed on to my mom. So my mom took over and started working with him when she was like...

21, I think. Really? Because he didn't have a son. He had two daughters. So he was like, well, one of you girls has to come up and learn what the business is. What is a business? They design and manufacture like communication equipment for like ferries and ships and like big, big, big ships and helicopters and stuff. Oh, wow.

So, yeah, it's quite complicated and loud and crazy. And that's your mom's gig? And that's my mom's gig now. So she's like this brilliant engineer, CEO person. Powerhouse. Powerhouse lady. Wow. And she's amazing. The Summer of the Rainbow, it was always his favorite. Yeah. So then it kind of followed me.

and I sang it in Manchester at our Benefit concert because of the significance it had in my heart and in my life. Did you cry? I sure did. I barely made it through the song. Oh, my God. And then I sang it every night for the rest of the tour as a tribute, of course, to Manchester and, of course, everyone who was there. Yeah, yeah. And it just has always been a really important part

song in your life and thing. It holds so much. Well, that kind of speaks to what we were talking about before. It's one of those songs that requires your emotional engagement individually. Totally. Like anybody who sings that song, the song defies you to make it your own. Totally. Because of the poetry of it. Yeah. Was there a moment where someone said, holy shit, this kid's got it? Um...

In your family or were you just a singing kid? Were you a normal kid? I was a singing kid. I don't know. My mom definitely noticed that I could sing. Yeah. I think I was like four when she kind of was like, what the fuck? Wait, that's not like, you know. There's a gifted person in the house. Yeah. But she never forced it on me. Like she never wanted me to pursue it. And she always said, you know, if you want to do this, I'm here. And yeah.

If you want to audition for things, you can. And I did. I wanted to. In Florida. Yes, in Florida, in South Florida. Yeah. But she was always, like, very supportive. But not, you know. Not a stage mom in the way that I think is a nightmare. Right. But you know why? It's because she's a boss. Right. Right.

And that there wasn't this, like, I think the insidious thing about the stage mom thing is that they're kind of pimping out their kid. Yeah, yeah. And there was no reason for that. And their kid is sort of filling this void for them. That's right. Whatever it is. It's very strange. So it sounds like you had a good separation. Your mom was able to let you be your own person. Yeah, it was a healthy but, like, gorgeously supportive relationship.

I'm so lucky that I have her and that I had her. Yeah. Just because she's so fucking brilliant and fiercely, fiercely protective. And also a good role model. Yeah. Because you're kind of a boss. Oh, thank you. I mean, you know, I don't understand how pop music works, but I mean, it's like... Me neither. 10, 11 years in. You don't. No, I'm kidding. It's a strange world, but...

I love the creative part of it so much. And what was your dad doing during all this? So my dad is, my mom is the business side. My dad is the art side. My dad is a, he does real estate photography, but he's also a graphic designer and a painter. Real estate photography? You mean like those wide angle shots that make houses look bigger than they are? Yeah.

He does beautiful photography, but also just like lots of graphic design and like website design. So you go from one house with the CEO to the house with the painter with the pictures and everything. Yeah. And if you know them, it's like it makes sense how like I could exist. Sure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And how was he with your singing career?

He was the same way. He was very aware of the fact that he thought I had a gift and that I would probably choose to do this. But he was always the one who was like...

If you ever want to quit or call it or throw in the towel, it's a lot. It's a lot of stimulation. It's a lot of attention. It's a lot. Don't let them take too much from you. And you throw in the towel and you come home and we'll go fishing and we'll sit on the boat, whatever it is. I don't love to fish, but I love to be with him. Were there ever times where you're like, I got to take a break and go on the boat with my dad?

I think there are maybe, maybe there are a few times when I should have, but I kept pushing for a while. And so what the, your first break was really singing the national anthem? Yeah, when I was eight. And was it, but did that, because you know, Mandy Moore has the same story. Oh, really? Yeah, she sang the national. And then it began, I began to wonder, it's like, do they know that this is a way in? Like that they're going to get seen doing the national anthem? No, I had no idea. How did that, how old were you? I was eight. Eight.

Yeah. And I had my hair exactly how it is right now, in the little bun. You've got to keep things consistent. I know. Yeah. It's true. And...

Yeah, I had so much fun. I really enjoyed it. But how did that happen? Oh, I auditioned. Oh, okay. There was a little thing in the newspaper. Yeah. My Nona or my mom saw it, and they took me to audition. And I didn't expect anything, but they let me do it. And it was really nice and fun. And you killed it. It was really sweet. Oh, my goodness. You know, I had fun. Was the audience sort of like, what is happening?

No, they were very supportive. They cheered for me. Oh, they were like, let's give the kid some love. She's going to do it. Yeah, it was really sweet. And when does it start? So as a regular kid, are you having fun? Are you going to school? Do you have friends and stuff? I have friends. I was going to school. I enjoyed it, but I enjoyed school.

theater a lot more and I enjoyed my theater friends way more. Is it separate than the school? Separate than the school. Like a children's theater? Yeah, because I was going to Pinecrest and I wasn't doing that much theater at Pinecrest. I was doing it outside. I was doing it at Little Palm Family Theater. Okay. So kids theater. Yeah. And then that was where I met my best friend Aaron who is still my best friend and we were six and seven. Oh, wow. And we were playing Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney.

and it was so cute, and we were inseparable, and I was doing so much theater, and then I switched schools. I went to North Broward for middle school. That was when I sort of, I was in their thespians class, but then I left because I got cast in 13, the musical on Broadway. That's big. So that was, so I wasn't there that long, but I... Are you doing all musical theater, basically? Yeah, I was doing all musical theater, basically.

And then Aaron and I both got cast in 13th together. Yeah. Which is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. It's really insane. And that's a big Broadway show, how they find you down there. We flew to New York together with our moms. Yeah, did you have like a Florida agent?

Or manager? I don't even think so. No, I think we just found out through our New York friends. Okay, yeah, yeah. Because Aaron had a bunch of friends and family there, and I don't even remember how we found out, actually. And you just flew up there together? Yeah, I went with him just for fun. Yeah. And they did a huge casting call, and they saw so many kids, and they ended up casting us in the reading. Yeah.

For 13, the musical. And then we stayed with the show. We did it at Goodspeed in Connecticut. Yeah. And then we went to Broadway. That was the previews? Mm-hmm. How long did it run? How long were you there? I think it was like five months, six months. That's a long time. I think so. I don't remember. Yeah. But it happened, which is fairly cool. And that's when the attention started to come to you.

I mean, it was, we were on Broadway. It felt really, yeah, it felt really special. And that was that time in Broadway where, like, they had found a market with young people, I think. Like, there was a lot of shows that were happening. Yes, Billy Elliot was happening at the same time. Right, yeah, yeah. And it was, like, a few years after Mary Poppins, which was cool. I loved that show. And then that leads to the Nickelodeon show? Yeah, which was immediately after. And my friend Liz Gillies, who was in 13 with me and Aaron, was,

Liz and I went to our audition for Victorious together. And then we both booked that together. That was in New York? That was in L.A. So you came to L.A. for that show? Yeah, we flew out together to audition. And that was straight acting, right? Yes, a little bit of music, though. We sang a couple of times on that show. Yeah. So it was a musical show. Right. But it was, yeah, fun.

And when do you start? And then you did the spinoff. I had McCurdy on here. Oh, my God, Jeanette, yeah. Yeah, she's great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's amazing. Heavy story, heavy book. Heavy book, heavy story. Yeah, but she seems like an amazing person. Yeah, she seems on top of it. But during that show, when do you start to focus on just music?

It was happening simultaneously. So while I was filming, you know, Victorious and Sam and Cat, I was like going to the studio in the evenings and making my first album. By yourself? Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, I mean, I was working with like producers and co-writers and of course, like, but it was crazy. We would shoot all day and then I would go to the studio afterwards and sing and then come in with my red hair. Yeah.

What happened to school? How does the school work? Well, I did it in a little classroom that they had. On set? Yeah, up in the little second floor. We had a tutor until we all graduated long distance. So you're producing these songs and you're putting them up on YouTube? I did. I put up a few, but not many when I was younger. But how did you know that YouTube was the thing? I think it was just the thing back then. Yeah, I guess. It was just like...

I had fans for the first time and I was... From the TV show. From the TV show and that was like such a kind thing and they wanted to hear me sing more so it was just a place for me to put stuff. Yeah. And then it was just a really strange, crazy development. I just remember it happening really quickly. When you put it up on YouTube? Well, just the... Or the fandom. The journey from that, from uploading my first cover on YouTube to then having a...

like a little tour that people wanted, that my fans wanted to come to. And I remember I was touring my first album, like previewing it. And they knew the words from YouTube videos before it was even out. And these are all like, like young girls mostly. And boys and everybody in between. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just really sweet. I just remember how quickly it traveled and being like really floored. Yeah. My first show that I did of,

I forget what I was calling it. Oh, my God. They're going to kill me, my kids. What the hell was it called? Your first tour? Yeah, the Something Tour. It was the Something Tour. And it was like this tiny, tiny thing. Was Nickelodeon involved with that? No. It was just totally separate. No, it was separate. This was kind of when I was discovering that it was okay to separate and to do music and

But I still had red hair. So I was dyeing my hair back and forth, like, on the weekends to go do, like, a gig or a music video. Yeah. And then it would be, like, with temporary dye. And then I would, like, wash it out, wash it, and try to get it bright red, try to get it bright red so I wouldn't get in trouble at work. And, like, it was just the craziest, the craziest time. Yeah. And... And were you, like, you were able to handle it? You weren't freaking out? No, it was just such a...

It was such a beautiful time because, you know, it was all positive. And it was all still bubbling and just kind of becoming what it was going to be eventually. It was before anything was out, really. What were the venues? Were they big? The Roxy. Like, I played the Roxy here. So kind of rock club size. Yeah, like rock club size. It was really special. And so now that happens. And how do you get the...

How do you all of a sudden just kind of launch into a music career? You got a record deal? Yes. So the record deal, I signed with Republic sort of while I was still working on the TV shows, which took a lot of figuring out what the right thing was to do, you know? Yeah. And...

I found that Republic was just the perfect home for me. Like, I just really felt understood. Who else was there? Monty Lipman. It was really just how I felt meeting with the team. Oh, the people, yeah. Yeah. I tried to just kind of separate that, you know, which other people were there at the time, and just kind of focus on how the people made me feel and what they said about, like,

You know, my trusting my creative impulses. And I was young, but I definitely knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to wear little 50s dresses and I wanted to sing pop R&B. And I wanted to, and you know, there were some meetings that I took. That was the first incarnation of you? Yes. Yeah. And there were some meetings that I took that kind of had a very different vision for what they thought I should be. Like what? Yeah.

just like not what, cause you were what? 18. How old was you? I was like 18, nine. I was 18 years old. Yeah. Actually I signed with them when I was 17. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. With Republic. But no, it was just really different. And I just remember being like, Oh, I don't know that that's, that that feels authentic to me or safe to me actually. And following that. And I remember meeting with the Republic family the first time with Monty and with Joe and with Wendy and everyone. And just knowing, Oh,

okay, I can get it. Yeah. They, they, they get it. And they're willing to honor my vision for what this is. Yeah. At this point. And help. And, and this is a very, um,

crazy thing to jump into and I think I'll be able to navigate it well and stay as safe as possible with these people with this family and so you did that first record which was like yours truly yeah and those were those were original songs though weren't they and and in terms of working with producers and everything when did you decide or when did you know that there was some hits on that record right

I mean, yeah, there was the first single was The Way. And then we had Baby I. It was just kind of like getting a little bit of my first taste at what was to come. You know what I mean? It was just like a crazy thing. I had no possible idea.

of where it was going to go from there. I just thought this was the craziest thing ever. You know, the way it came out and was in the top 10 on the Billboard thing. And I didn't even know what that meant. Like, I'm not even kidding. I didn't... I shit you not, I had no idea what that meant. Yeah. I didn't know what that meant. And you're surrounded by people going, oh my God! Yeah, they're going, holy shit, it's number one on iTunes! And I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? And they were like, it's going to be on the top 10 on Billboard. And I was like...

okay, is that good? What does it mean? Is it fine? Am I supposed to do something about it? Do I care about it? I have no idea. But of course, I was just like a kid who wanted to make art. And I had to learn the other side of it. I didn't know the business side of it at all when I came into it. That's probably better off. Way better off. Because then you don't... I try to keep it that way. Well, it seems like what you're telling me that makes you different... Certainly, there's a generation of people that

I wrote this thing the other day. It just says ambition is not a point of view. No, it's fucking not. Wow. That's the best thing I've ever heard. Point of view is the only thing that matters. Right. Really. I mean it. Yeah. Like even like when I'm watching like Drag Race, I'm like, wow. Yeah. Point of view, point of view, point of view. Right. Yeah. Yeah. This is like these pieces, you know, I like point of view in art is just like in

and arguably the most important thing. Well, that's totally correct, but a lot of people just are ambitious, and they figure it out through persistence. That scares me quite a bit. Well, yeah. Intention is so important. Well, because what happens is if the public begins to be comfortable with that, then the integrity of what real art is gets diminished. Yeah. And you get a lot of amateurs getting very popular specifically for the fact that they make money.

Do you know what I'm saying? Sure. But, but so what I was saying though, it's, it's kind of beautiful that your intentions were always creative.

Well, thanks. You know, from the get-go, you weren't like, how do I make a number one single? I didn't even know what that was. Yeah. I did not even know what that was. I just wanted to sing my ass off, and I wanted to sit there and write songs with collaborators I loved and make music, and that's all I knew. Yeah, how does that work? That's all I knew. I was curious about that, because I mentioned that earlier about pop music, is that do you, like, when you collaborate with people...

Do you bring that to the table? Are you like, I really like this person and I like their work and can we see if we can get... Because collaboration is like a big part of pop music. Yeah. I mean, when I was young, I didn't know anyone. I didn't know anyone, so I had the help of my label to introduce me. Right. Like, do you know these guys? Do you know this group? Or do you know this woman? Yes. And you're like, wild. Yeah. But then I sort of like made amazing friends and sort of...

found my people that I sort of clicked with most. And then when you become, uh, uh, like big, then people know you. And then I imagine people are calling you like, you know, will you come do this thing on my thing? I mean, sometimes. Yeah. But no, no, I, I'm such a, I'm such a, um,

A cancer. Like I said, when I meet people I trust and love, I kind of am very loyal to them and I grow with them. Yeah. Until, yeah, until I kind of, until we die. Until shit hits the fan? No, I'm kidding. Until it gets weird and I gotta go? No, no. I just, I love growing with the people I love until I feel like we're growing apart. Yeah. Rather than together. Does that make sense? Sure. You write a lot of songs about it. True. Wow. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness. I wasn't expecting to talk so much about music today. It's kind of fun. What did you think we would talk about? Oh, more death. More death. I'm kidding. I'm joking. We got the death out of the way. I'm totally joking. We started with death. We're going towards happy. But it's fun. I love having no idea. It's fun. But explain to me, like, there must come a point where after the first record, after you start to understand, you know, the popularity and the sort of...

how many people love what you're doing, then you get savvy, right? By the second record, you're kind of like aware that you are at a precipice of huge pop stardom. The pressure was kind of, the pressure built a little bit. Does that make sense? Sure, yeah. Just sort of like the... Just talking about it, I'm anxious.

No, no, no. But like it's a big thing. Yeah. It was a sort of like interesting era. The next, the albums, the two albums that followed my first felt like they had to kind of prove a point. Which was what? Just sort of like solidifying my spot. That you're a person with a point of view. That I could stick around. You know what I mean? It was like, that was the kind of time when I felt like the label was sending me everywhere and we were doing like the big pop records. Yeah. Like they were slightly more pop-

And it was really fun, but I was everywhere every single day. So those two albums kind of had me really doing the work so that I could, from then on out, just kind of like...

know what the work was. Let it happen. You know what I mean? Just sort of change the formula. But that was also when, because the first album you didn't write any, but the second one you started, right? I wrote quite a bit on the first album. You did? But yeah, but there was a, it was, I co-wrote some of the first album. Actually, Tattooed Heart I wrote alone in my room when I was way younger and found a home for it on that album. Way younger? Tattooed Heart, was that the first song you wrote? No, no, no. I think it was maybe like four.

When I wrote it. I don't remember. But it made it on. But it made it on. It hung around. And I think I was just kind of still finding my voice and figuring out how to speak up and say like, oh, and also I'm a vocal producer. Would it be okay if, excuse me, may I comp this myself? Right. And sort of like... Does that mean write it? No, comp it. So comp is...

The writing is just sort of, you know, just writing, whatever. Yeah, and the top line and the vocal arranging and whatever. And all of that I've always loved to do. But the comping is basically just vocal producing yourself, like sitting behind the computer in the Pro Tools session and like looking through the playlist of takes and comping it together yourself. So like picking words that you like, the takes of or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah.

if the diction is better here, like picking that one, or like if you like this run better here. Oh my God, this must take hours. Oh, it's heaven. It's so much fun. Yeah? It's really heavenly. Because when I listen to pop music, I'm like, there's so much going on. It must take like two weeks to do one song. Oh, sometimes. Sometimes.

Sometimes. But the best part is the vocal arranging, which is just sort of like adding all the stacks of harmonies and sort of like figuring out where there should be a little response or like a little background, like...

Yeah. Or like a big swell of harmonies or whatever it is. And you kind of, you do that on your own a lot of times? Yeah. It's really fun. And it's really fun to work specifically with Max Martin on it because he's like the guy, right? He's just so wonderful. And we've built such an amazing trust over the years that like he'll,

leave me alone in the room and then let me surprise him with the vocal arranging that I've done or like whatever it is and it's so fun we love to nerd out together yeah what's a guy because he kind of invented modern pop music somehow truly yeah and what is a guy like that like how does how does that work when you're working with a producer is it

What makes him such an amazing producer? Is it his sense of arrangement? Is it his sense of rhythm or sound? I mean, what makes him a signature guy? I mean, all of it. I mean, he's truly just a genius in every capacity. Just...

freedom to like what I'll do with like a vocal pass or like a melody pass and then there's like a mathematical element that he brings with like when we go back and forth it's really hard to describe but like when we'll go back and forth melody passes together it's just kind of this really beautiful um

dance that we do. I don't know, but he's so genius and the best thing about him, obviously other than being the greatest producer of our time, is just no ego. There's no ego there at all. There's no ego there at all. There's endless curiosity. And like we said, point of view and curiosity and that intention leading the way of just like, oh, what's the most interesting and beautiful thing we can make today? Not like, oh, how can we shatter the... There's no...

It's just he's such an art forward, eagerness person. He's an eagerness person. So you can really... Yeah, I love him. We had such a beautiful time working on it. If he has no ego, you can interface and create together without argument. You have to earn...

that sort of trust together. Yeah. But he's also just so curious and open and wonderfully welcoming in that way. It's so weird because like talking to you, like, you know, because I, whatever, I play my dumb music and I've talked to musicians before and at some point not too long ago I realized that the life of being a musician is,

is that you don't live a regular life. You spend days and days and weeks and weeks in the studio doing this stuff. And some part of me thought, well, there's a freedom to that, but the drive to make the thing right

could get frustrating but the way you're describing it the whole thing is just this process of discovery and the process is exciting well I think it depends on the room and it depends on your process and it depends on your collaborators process and stuff like that I mean I've been like when I was young when we were making like Dangerous Woman which is like my third album it's like

Or maybe it was my everything. I don't remember. But like we would, we would spend such a long time working on a pre-chorus. Right. We would spend weeks and weeks and weeks. Yeah. And then I finally was like, let's bounce around. Yeah.

Let's bounce around. It's not there. Yeah. Let's bounce around. Yeah. And let's play. Yeah. And let's do a new melody pass on something. Hand me a mic and I'll just sing and I'll just try new things and then we'll find something else. And then guess what? We'll come, we'll bounce around and that will be there when we come back. Right. And that's, I think when I discovered that's how I, that's how I'm able to be like my most productive, creative self is when I like sort of,

take that pressure off. If it's not pouring out of me, like, I'm not going to shove my head in the sand until it comes out right. I just, I don't have that. I like, I have a perfectionist tendency in a different way. Yeah. And,

Like if it's not right, you don't get frustrated and say, fuck it, let's come back in a week. You're just sort of like, let's open it up and try some other places. I just sort of like to let the right thing fall out. And if there's a beat that I love, but it's not pouring out in that moment, I'll save it in my favorites folder and I'll come back to it the next day and it will be there that day because I know there's something there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I know enough to know if I hear something, a track or something that like,

inspires me that it'll be there if it's when it's supposed to be there. And also you have this complete control over this massive vocal range. So I guess over time as you kind of got control of your instrument that it opened up a lot of avenues for you to experiment with.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Is that just more innate? You know, that like it just, you don't think that way? Like, you know, like, well, if I take it up to this octave and we can go down from here and that kind of, you just kind of feel it out? Yeah, I think it's emotional. I think it all comes back to intention, like you said, and point of view. It's like a, if we, if this adds to the story, then it'll become higher, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's making you laugh? Because like, for me...

Singing in and of itself is so terrifying that I feel so vulnerable. And it took me years to do it in public. And I don't do it professionally, but I wanted to do it because I like doing it. But just the act of hearing my voice with no real control over it, it almost makes me cry.

Because I feel so, you know, like exposed. But that's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. It's hard, you know. But it is beautiful. But I can only imagine that if you have control over that and you're comfortable in that vulnerability, that, you know, your palate just becomes so big.

And you can connect whatever emotion you want to whatever sort of vocalizing you want to do. Well, I think so. I think it's helpful, especially when you're, you know, doing a musical movie or something like that, where it's like...

That is driving the story, really. And we have the ability to sing live. And that was in you early, too, because the musical acting, you had to connect it to action. Yeah. And so the script in and of itself gives you the emotional outline that you have to sing.

You know what the story is. The lyrics, yeah. But also in a movie like in Wicked, I mean, you're building scenes. Yeah. So there's emotional arcs to every scene. And you can just sing to that. And you can sing to that. And then also you can be singing one thing and feeling one thing and saying one thing and –

doing a totally other thing with your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the beautiful part about working. Yes, and working with a camera, it's different than doing it on stage where you have to play to the last row in the house. Right, right. And all of, everything has to be larger than life and you have, you get to come in with a close-up. It's amazing how, you never did Wicked on stage, right? I never did Wicked on stage, no. And, you know, in this, like, I'm so happy that

It's so successful. I'm so happy as well. I'm so grateful too. Isn't it crazy? It's really beautiful to see how many people it's touched. It's wild because a musical is a big gamble. It's crazy. Right. I was like, I hope theater nerds love it. So when did it, and I'm sure you've talked about this a lot, but what was your relationship with Wicked before you took the role?

I adored it. It was my favorite musical since I was 10. Really? That musical? See, it's been around that long. I loved it more than anything. And it was kind of the dream of my life was to be a part of it in some capacity, whether it was on Broadway, whether it was whatever it was. I was stalking Mark Platt for 10 years. But, you know, when I found out that they were going to make it into a movie, I was on the Sweetener tour and I was...

I'm freaking out because I was like, is this happening now? If it's happening right now, I'm going to need to figure out a plan. How to get off the tour? I have to pay everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just pay everyone, take care of everyone. Because a lot of people work on this show, not just me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I take that very seriously. And I'll figure it out with my fans. But...

If this is happening now, I need to get into vocal lessons. I need to get into acting lessons. I need to get ready right now. Really? What do you need from vocal lessons at this point? Well, it's a totally different vocal track than what I usually sing. I had to train myself to sing opera. I trained with Eric Vitro, my vocal coach, for three months before my first audition so that I could sound like an authentic coloratura soprano because Glinda's voice...

But Glinda's vocal track is completely different than what I usually sing. What do you usually sing in musical terms? Well, I mean, it's just a very different placement. It's pop music, and I usually use my mix and sometimes my belt. But when I sing high, high, high stuff, it's usually in a whistle register, which is very different than a...

you know, operatic, full falsetto, or like that kind of coloratura sound. So you had no real experience in that? Mm-mm. And, but because, so what's a vocal coach do with you? Like, you know, like do they say like, look, you know how to sing, but let's learn this. Yeah, so basically it's just kind of

training the muscles to do new tricks like any other muscle in the body just kind of like using doing exercises was it hard? it was really hard yeah it was really hard actually the other day I was like listening I was on a long flight and I went all the way back just because I was feeling like

Nostalgic. Nostalgic. And I was feeling like emotional. And Eric had texted me congratulating me. And he was just emotional because we worked so hard for this role. Yeah. And I went all the way back to listen to the very beginning. And it's just crazy to hear the difference like week to week.

in how that upper register strengthened and began to sound slowly more and more technically correct, like how it was supposed to be for the role. Now, had you been, like, was this in preparation for an audition or you've been offered the role? No, no, no, no, no. This was in preparation for my first audition where they had me sing for both roles, even though I was definitely, certainly a Glinda and coming in for Glinda for sure. I think they just didn't know if I'd be able to sing the Glinda part. So I think...

Because publicly I had only sang Elphaba songs and I sang The Wizard and I on the Wicked Anniversary thing. But on some level, who the fuck else is going to do it? What is that list? That is so kind. That's so kind. No, I mean, the thing is, is that...

she requires so much more than people like realize or than that I, there would be no reason for them to assume that I could act this or sing this. But of course you can act. You're so funny. Everyone knows you're funny and you can do things and sketch and SNL and everything. Well, that is so kind, but just, there's, but with Glinda, there's like, that she goes to,

to other places and there's so much beneath the surface that's like really broken and really real and there has to be a real person with insecurities and traumas and a human heartbeat underneath the surface for that comedy to land because comedy is just telling the truth we don't play the jokes we just say the stuff and there has to be a person there and dimension and nuance so you're able to tap into your trauma and depth and brokenness well to hers I'm not good at using mine for acting I'm not it's distracting yeah

Really? I had to use Glenda's, yeah. So you had to fabricate it? I had to just learn her inside and out. But when you draw from... That was what helped me. Right, but like emotionally, you must relate. You find the balance between, of course, yes. Yeah. There are certain parallels between us and in our lives that feel really adjacent that are inevitable, that they tap on my own sort of traumas and my own sort of pain, of course. And that's very... It's interesting to kind of notice that

acknowledge it, feel it, and then bring it back to Glenda immediately. Right. So that I can be honoring her and staying in her body and staying in her experience. And also be able to repeat it take after take. Yes. Without triggering your own. Yes. It's nice to acknowledge that connection and find it and say, okay, here's where I've felt that kind of grief, that kind of loss, that kind of insecurity, that kind of fear. And

And then say, okay, but what's Glinda's trigger here? Sure. I want to use Glinda's trigger. Yeah. So you load up, basically. Yeah, I just get to know... I tried to just get to know her as much as possible. But yeah, but, you know, there was so much to prove. There was really so much to prove. I felt like I had...

working against me. I felt like I had so much stacked up against me. For getting the role? Yeah, I thought that it would be almost impossible for me to get it. I knew I wanted to do everything I could to earn it. Yeah. And I wanted to do...

as much work as I humanly possibly could to prove that I could be the person that I could disappear and erase any sort of traces of familiarity and, you know, all of that is possible. All your Ariana Grande-ness? Yes, and become a character like any other actress or actor could or would. But it really took a lot of... Oh, that's interesting. It took a lot... It was an uphill battle. And, you know, John has spoken about it and we've spoken about it a lot. And I'm so grateful that...

The audition process was as thorough as it was because...

I love Wicked so much. I didn't want it to go to me if it wasn't meant to go to me. But that's interesting that you were both aware of who you were in the world in terms of your popularity and success and what defined that. And the talent was undeniable. That's kind. But the question was, can you separate? Yeah, I needed to disappear into her. And you were aware of that from the beginning. I was, yes.

And what was the process like when they first put you in with Cynthia? Okay, so the funny thing is, is we didn't chemistry read together at any point. I had my first audition, then my callback, and then my third callback, which was a screen test with two different actresses, two different Elphabas.

And neither of which were Cynthia Erivo. Yeah. Somehow she tested with two different Glendas. Yeah. Neither of them were me. Yeah. And we both were cast and John just went like blindly and believed that it had to be them. He was like, I know two things. I know that she's Elphaba and I know that she's Glenda. So we're going to have to figure the rest out. But that must have been interesting because of the dynamic that plays out on screen that you didn't really know each other.

And you'd already both fully put these characters together for yourself. Yes. So that must have been a very exciting first meeting. Yes. It was amazing. It was really special. The first time we met, we sang together at John's house. And Stephen Schwartz accompanied us on the piano. We sang for good. Yeah. And it was really emotional. It was really special. Yeah. And we felt really...

safe and good. Did you cry? I did. I cried my eyes out. Of course I did. Did she cry? I think so. A little bit. I think so. Yes, I think we were both crying for this whole thing. Yeah. No, but it was good. I mean, I think the thing that was most important that we did was call each other up right away and say like, hey,

This is big and heavy, and it's going to require so much of us. This is not going to work if we don't have each other's backs every second of this. That was the first text? It was literally one of our first calls. We just got very real right away. And I was like, I want you to know there's nothing that you can't control.

Talk to me about. There's nothing you can that you need to avoid. There's nothing that we can't work through together. Right. We have to build a very true safety within each other. Otherwise, all of this doesn't doesn't work the same way. Yeah. Like it just doesn't and won't. And also we deserve to have that safety in each other for this. And it was beautiful. And that was a commitment that we made. And and it grew from there. And we continue to nourish that pact.

Yeah. Wow. So it's sort of like you create one of the strongest friendships in your life out of necessity to honor a piece of art. Yeah.

Wow. And it held. You guys are good. And it held. And it held. And it held. But the process of shooting the movie must have been daunting and exhausting. And, you know, there's flying involved. There was so much hard, beautiful work. But I have to say, like, I, there was, I mean, every day was a...

to 15 hour day like every single day and there was never a moment for me where I didn't want to savor every second or be there and you know there was this moment oh my god Jack our first lady who's still such an amazing human being I love him so much but he he

He came into my tent, which is what we had on set because our trailers were quite far away. We never had that much downtime. So we had little tents right off to the side. Almost every scene. Yes. Like literally a tow out of Munchkinland. We had a little tent with heaters in it and little snacks to sit down for. And the director's chairs. Yeah, just to sit for a few minutes. And Jack came in and was like, Ari, I'm so sorry to bother you. He was like, would it be okay if we broke your turnaround for tomorrow? And I was like, just kidding.

Jack, I said, look at me. Yeah. I've been waiting 20 years to sing Defying Gravity and to be Glinda. You can break my fucking turnaround however many times you need to. And I think, and he got really emotional. It was a really sweet moment. I think because it was just such a big week for all of us. Yeah. And it was Defying Gravity coming up and he was just being protective and coming in. And I was like,

Don't fucking think about it one more time. We're fine. I'll be here. I'll sleep here. I don't give a fuck. I'll sleep here in my little pink tent. I don't care. And that was the kind of gratitude that I tried to lead with every single day.

And they paid off. And we had a family who took care of us. And we had coffees and waters. Yeah. And we got to take care of each other and do the hardest and best work, most gratifying work of our lives. And you're going to do it again. Yes, and we're doing it again. Well, both films are shot. Oh, that's done. Right. Okay. But we get to do this part again, which is really fun. Sure. Now we're doing a press tour about the press tour, about the press tour. And how do you deal with, because I know you don't do a lot of these longer talks, but

I'm having the best time. Oh, good. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm glad you came. I knew I would. I love your show. Thank you. I'm glad you made it. How have you kind of wrangled and kind of effectively managed...

You know, what comes at you from the world, you know, online, social media, tabloid shit. I mean, how did you have to, it seems like you had to take some time to figure out how to insulate or get boundaries around that stuff. Yeah, it's interesting because it's something that there kind of just has to be a boundary with. Yeah, absolutely. You'd lose your mind. Yeah, and it's a strange, it's just a strange thing.

It's a strange thing that you kind of have to accept being a part of your life because you have this massive gift of being able to be an artist. And you have this tremendous, tremendous privilege of being able to

play your dream role and make art and make music and have fans and have this connection with this human connection with people who want to hear what you have to sing about or want to see your performances and you get to connect in that way. And I lead with acceptance. I kind of just have to have a healthy boundary there and understand that choosing this life is, you know, it's a tricky one. And I'm,

lucky that I have just so much love to cushion me when I feel like it's the weight of it you know what I mean like I have in every direction so much love to be that cushion for me when it gets heavy and when it gets stupid and loud and present it's

It's strange. I mean, I was 19 when all of that nonsense started happening to me. And it's just a crazy piece of the puzzle. And I never... It's something that you work so hard to kind of try to understand. And, you know, it never...

It would never make sense to me. Does that make sense? I just love art. And that's all I care about. So it's just weird that that's a part of my... That people are preying on your personal life and speculating about things. Yeah. It's very strange. But it started when I was so young. With what? With just like my body or like rumors about my relationships or about my team or about my mom or about people I love. Like there was just no limit. And I was so young and...

And then did it kind of break you down at that point? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's impossible to navigate. And that's why whenever I have the chance to talk about it, I talk about how...

I think it's so important that these record labels and these studios, these TV studios and whatever it is, these big production companies make it a part of the contract when you sign on to do something that's going to change your life in that way. Yeah. On that scale, you need a therapist. Yeah.

To be seeing several times a week. Really? Because if this hits the way that we know it's going to, because we're the big studio, we're the ones funneling this money into this plan, we know it's going to work because this is what we do. We know how your life is going to change. We see how it can change and impact people in a negative way. We should be responsible for protecting you from that. Right. So that's why I try to talk about that. I think that

When these people are cast in these life-changing roles or when they get that record deal, when they get that moment...

That should be non-negotiable in the contract. That you have somebody to help you compartmentalize whatever. Everything that comes with being an artist. Because to be an artist, you are a vulnerable person with your heart on your sleeve. To choose to do art, you have to be a wounded person of some sort. Art in any and every capacity. It comes from some place, some sort of.

you know, soulful place. And you're a vulnerable person to choose art. So the same person that is meant to do art is the same exact person who's not meant to deal with that shit. Does that make sense? Of course. Yeah, because it'll tear you apart. Yeah, right. If you're going through the world, you know, showing yourself and having an open heart and engaging in a creative thing, that...

When, you know, predatory media or people lock into you, there's a persistence to it. And if you can't have a boundary that whether you need help or not to maintain it, it can destroy you. Yeah. And also where you put your energy is so important. And you want to be able to keep the focus. Yes. And also...

It's just a very protective thing to know that where you put your energy, it expands in certain ways. And learning that is such a pivotal thing when it comes to self-protection and to being able to proceed and choose art and have that be your life. Right. But art at the level you're doing it, too. Like, it's not just about, you know, the public and the, you know, the...

the clickbait and the tabloids and everything else, but you also become limited in how you can live your life to a certain degree publicly, right? Expand upon that. Well, I mean that, you know, it's hard for you to disappear in public, I would imagine. No. No. No, I have, the thing is, is like I've created, and this is something I'm so proud of. Yeah. I've created such a healthy lifestyle.

life for myself. Yeah. And achieved a level of normalcy, like with my kind of my routine and what I have found that works and like I need it for myself, for my mental health. I do my thing. What do you like to do? I love walking. I love...

I love doing normal anything. Do you travel and stuff? Do you have fun? I do, yes. Do you have fun hobbies? Oh, well, I haven't in a long time. I mean, hobbies, yes, but I haven't gone on a vacation in 47 years. But, no, that normalcy is so important to me. It's such a healthy thing. And you're able to do it.

Yeah, and it's nice. And also, like, when I do meet someone or a fan or a waiter at a restaurant or something, like, I have such a beautiful, positive interaction. Oh, that's good. And that's the real stuff. Right. Like, that's real. Yeah. That is such a beautiful, special thing to know. And that kind of human connection is just so much louder than the...

The negatives. Sure, yeah. And it's immediate and it's present. And it's emotional and it makes me cry every time. That's great. I stopped for a cup of tea the other day and there was a waiter who had a tattoo on his arm of me. Yeah. And I literally, it was like a cute little like character, like a little anime style me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just started crying. It was so sweet. And we hugged and we met and I feel so...

grateful again. And that there are good people in the world. Yeah. And that also that you've been doing this long enough to where there's literally people that have grown up with you and they have a relationship with your heart. And I've grown up with them. Yeah, yeah. And we have, you know, we've had this lifelong bond and relationship and it's just like, it's really, it's beautiful. Yeah. And it's like, it's okay that

I have my people. Yeah, and a lot of them. Well, that's nice. But, you know. No, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. And I'm glad you're handling it all. Thank you. And you do great work. Oh, my therapist. I love her so much. We do great work. We do great work. Good. That's true. When you do great work as an artist, and I'm glad you've made the time to transcend your cough. I wouldn't have missed it. Well, thank you. And it was great talking to you. Thank you. Thank you so much. There you go.

That was a real conversation with a pop superstar and an actress and a funny person and a profoundly magically talented individual. She's up for Best Supporting Actress at the Oscars. Wicked is still in theaters and available to rent on digital platforms. Hang out for a minute, folks. Okay, look, we typically get quite a few Oscar nominees in the garage around this time of year. And on Thursday, you'll hear my talk with Best Director nominee James Mangold, who

And we talk about his movies, his influences, and of course, Bob Dylan. I caused alarm bells to go off in the Dylan camp because they read my script. Yeah. And were like, this is not the mandate we had wanted for this movie. We wanted this to be about the music, not about Bob's personal life. Very interesting. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. Yeah. I don't know how to make a movie that's just about the music. Yeah.

and COVID hit and kind of killed the movie for the near term anyway. Was this before you had focused on this one particular time, or was that always the arc? That was always the arc. There was always the arc, but the anticipation, like the book, Elijah Wald book, is not really, doesn't really delve into the personal. But to put the book in,

into film form without that other stuff, to me, would have been a crime. Like, it would have removed the music from all context. It would have taken the heart out of the movie. Well, at least as I saw it. So we were at a kind of moment of tension or impasse, and then COVID hit and in a sense made it irrelevant. And then about two months into COVID, this is 2020, COVID,

I get a call from Bob's manager who goes, well, you know, Bob's tour was canceled. I'm like, okay. And he goes, so he asked to read the script. Yeah. And I go, okay. And he goes, and he likes it.

And so suddenly the team, Team Bob, had completely changed because Bob was at a different point of view than what they had anticipated. And he goes, and he'd like to meet you. So then that became a series of meetings with Dylan where –

We discussed the script and his life and this period and a million other things. But the point being that I suddenly had license to go to places that his team had said I couldn't. You can hear my talk with James Mangold this Thursday to get every episode of WTF ad free sign up for WTF plus.

You can go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And remember, before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's some of the guitar like I play it. ♪♪ Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda cat ears is everywhere. ♪♪