No, It's Not Getting More Dangerous To Fly
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I can see the joy on your face. Is this the Galen Druk effect? It is the Galen Druk effect. It's also known as the makeup effect. I mean, I was going to say, it's stunning. You don't look a day over, I don't know, 30. You know what? I got to make sure I'm keeping it young because if I keep it young on the outside, it reminds me to keep it young on the inside. I don't know how you keep it young on the inside given that you don't eat vegetables, Harry. I eat some vegetables. I like fish. I like salmon. Harry, I hate vegetables.

Absolutely hate to break it to you. Salmon is not a vegetable. Hello and welcome to the FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast. I'm Galen Druk, and it's been a difficult month for Americans afraid of flying. On January 29th, an American Airlines jet collided with a Black Hawk helicopter over the Potomac River, killing 67 people. It was the first major commercial airline crash in more than 15 years.

And in the weeks since, there's been coverage of more plane crashes. A medical jet crashed in Philadelphia, killing seven. A small passenger plane crashed near Nome, Alaska, killing 10. A Delta flight landed in Toronto, flipped upside down, though there were thankfully no casualties there. And just this week, two separate planes, one at Reagan in D.C. and another at Midway in Chicago, were forced to abort landings to avoid collisions.

If headlines like these give you anxiety, you are not alone. According to polling from the AP, the share of Americans who say flying is somewhat or very unsafe has increased from 12% a year ago to 20% this month.

And that poll found something else. The decrease in trust that Americans have in flying is not spread evenly across partisan groups. Republicans' feeling about air travel remain virtually unchanged from 12 months ago, while trust has fallen amongst Democrats and independents.

So what is going on here? Is partisan polarization taking to the skies, having already conquered everything on land? And what can Americans' feelings about flying tell us about other areas of public opinion?

Joining me to discuss is CNN senior data reporter and FiveThirtyEight alumnus himself, Harry Enten. Welcome back to the podcast, Harry. Where is the crowd? Where is the crowd to welcome me in? Why am I not hearing applause right now? We're going to add some cheering in the background. Cameron, cue the effects. All of a sudden, rapturous applause. Thank you. Thank you. That's thank you. That's what I'm talking about.

There we go. Yeah, WizKid Harry Enten. I was on this podcast when you were just a wee little boy, Galen Druk. I remember when we did Wisconsin Public Radio together and you were a producer out there.

I remember walking to school in the snow uphill with just a wee little jack. Oh, wait a minute. No, that wasn't me. But you get the point. I've been around for a long time. Harry, we go way, way, way back. We go way, way back. It feels like Welcome Back, Cotter. That was what I was going to say. And now we're all grown up. We're all grown up now. We're all grown up. I live in an apartment building with somebody else. I...

have my clothes dry cleaned. It feels like a whole new world. I mean, that's not the Harry Enten...

that I met back in, what was it, 2013, 2014? But Harry, I want to get to the point here. There is no one else I could imagine doing this show with, not only because you've dug into the data on airline crashes, which we will get to, but also because we are both somewhat afraid of flying and have actually had to face our fears together flying for work,

So first of all, do you remember our flight together to Boise, Idaho? It was a two prong flight. We landed in Minneapolis, St. Paul. We flew Delta, uh,

I remember the flight left at 735 or so in the morning. You were petrified. I grabbed your hand. I believe that I had a little alcoholic beverage on that flight as well. So, yes, the long answer to your short question is yes, I do recall. Harry, there are two things I remember about

That flight, which is that one of the alcoholic beverage you're referring to was a Coke Zero mixed with Bailey's. Correct. And the Bailey's curdled in the glass. Yes. And I would have been more disgusted, except...

To your point, I was terrified you were holding my white knuckled hand while the plane just like bounced all over the place between Minneapolis and Boise. I am proud to say that in addition to being all grown up professionally, I'm no longer quite as afraid of flying, not nearly as I was back then. But I know you also have some fears of...

of flying. So how have the past couple of weeks been for you? I haven't flown yet, but it's one of those funny things, right? I put my faith in the statistics, which we can get into, but obviously it's not ideal. I don't think anybody enjoys the fear of using a mode of transportation that sometimes we need to. Otherwise, we would spend a lot of time on the ground driving. And there's some people who do that.

but I don't think anyone takes any real pleasure. Famously. Didn't you take the train from New York city to Miami? Yes, I've taken with my father back in fifth grade. I took the, uh, the train from New York city to Miami. The pancakes were very good. Ironically, unfortunately we got into an accident on that train ride. Uh, and we actually hit a fire truck, uh, when we were going by train, we hit a fire truck. Uh,

I think there was. I think the fireman, you know, he the gates were down. He went around and like North Carolina and we had a fire truck. I also believe, though, I wasn't awake for it. We might have also hit a bicyclist as well. So there is no mode of transportation that's 100 percent safe people. Wait, Harry, you set me up perfectly, which is to say, despite the past few weeks or month plus, you

flying remains basically the safest way to travel. And you often hear sort of statistically that the most dangerous part of your airplane journey is getting to the airport in a car or cab or public transit, train, whatever. But once you're actually on the plane, that's the safest leg of the journey. And so let's talk about those statistics that you have dug into. How safe is flying

today compared with past decades? Yeah, I mean, look, I think there are two ways you can look at it, Galen. One, we can look at the long-term trend, right, which is fatalities, commercial airliners, which are the safest, right? Commercial airliners are far safer than general aviation. Your private planes, your little propellers that one pilot goes up into, sometimes amateur pilots. I

And if you look at commercial aviation, what you see is, I believe, in total unscheduled commercial aviation flights, U.S. flights, there have been 62 fatalities aboard those over the last 15 years since 2010. That includes the unfortunate event down in Washington, D.C., which killed, I think, 60 aboard the American Airlines flight. I think it might just be passengers, but you get exactly what I'm saying there.

And you compare that to, say, 1982 to 89 period. That is basically the last eight years of the 1980s. There were nearly a thousand fatalities from commercial U.S. scheduled flights. So it's significantly safer in that way. Another way you can look at it is just look at the NTSB data, which combines both commercial and commercial.

general aviation. And what we saw was that there were fewer crashes in the month of January, this past January, than any January on record. And I believe the number of fatalities was tied with, at least the last time I looked at the stats, with 2022 for the fewest number of crashes that involve fatalities. So any way you slice it, there are fewer fatalities now

than there have been in the past. Unfortunately, because of one high profile incident, and we obviously mourn all those who passed, that has sort of cast a general cloud over aviation overall. And now any little incident, even just involving general aviation, which they happen every month, we just don't hear about them, become a very big deal. Yeah. So what are we talking about there? If we look at

all aviation and not just including fatalities. So a lot of these incidences, I mean, obviously the Delta landing in Toronto upside down was no small incident, even though there were no fatalities. But you often hear of little planes crashing in Alaska, for example, private planes, et cetera. So when you take all of that data together, how many quote unquote incidences do we usually see in a month? And how many are we experiencing now?

say, in February or January? Yeah, so obviously we don't have the February, final February stats, and we have preliminary January. And we were talking a little bit more than 60 in the month of January incidents. And that is a record low. Normally you're looking 70 north into the 80s, 90s, 100s.

of incidents per month, but most of these involve general aviation, smaller planes. Not all of them involve fatalities. Some of them unfortunately do, but this is what we're saying here, which is there are tens, if not hundreds of these incidents every month. We just don't generally hear about them because there's,

They tend to either happen up in Alaska, which is a place where there are, I believe, more pilots per resident than any other state, or they are so small. You know, if there's a car crash that kills somebody in a random state in this country, we normally don't, you know, have giant news write-ups about them because they're

part of everyday life, unfortunately. And having small airplane crashes are part of everyday life. And therefore, we don't tend to pump them up. But now we're in such an environment whereby every little incident gets noted. So basically, what you're saying is it's vibes. Nothing has changed about airline safety over the past month.

There's a lot of vibes. I mean, the one thing that obviously has changed is that we had a very high profile fatal crash down in Washington. That's the first time we've had a high profile fatal crash of a commercial airliner since 2009. So that is something that has changed. But there have been a lot of close calls, right? We can remember those runway incursions, which are essentially where an airplane is

is where it's not supposed to be on a runway, right? And the serious close calls, not the ones that, you know, oh, something could have happened, but it really wasn't that close. I'm talking about the serious close calls. I think they're like class A or B. And we can recall back in 2023, in the early part of that year, there was a lot of talk of those close calls, those runway incursions. And it turns out that 2023 had the highest number on record.

Of course, then 2024 had the lowest number on record, at least dating back over the last decade. And so, look, sometimes you get lucky and these close calls don't result in fatalities. But if you roll the dice enough, right, and you get a lot of close calls up in the skies,

Unfortunately, eventually your luck is going to run out. And I think that's obviously we don't know exactly what caused the collision in the Virginia, Washington, D.C. area. But eventually your luck is bound to run out if you play it back enough times. And this gets us to maybe a more political question.

place where in the wake of that crash, we've heard some lawmakers suggest there needs to be more oversight into these close calls or investigations. You know, there's been some criticism of the layoffs at the FAA. And it seems as though at the very least, Americans are perceiving

airline safety in a political fashion. So an APNORC poll from earlier this month found that the share of Americans who say flying is very or somewhat safe is 64%.

And as I mentioned at the top, that is down from a year ago when in the same poll, 71 percent said that flying was very or somewhat safe. The drop in trust, however, is not spread across partisan groups. Republicans' trust in flying is virtually unchanged from a year ago.

For Democrats, it's fallen from 76%, saying that it's very or somewhat safe, to 69%. So that's a seven-point drop amongst Democrats. And it's really fallen amongst independents. So from 61% a year ago to 43%

this month. So Democrats and independents less trusting. Independents now less than half say that flying is very or somewhat safe. I want to talk about those Democrats. First of all, what's up with independents?

Are they just, you know, they don't trust either party, so they don't really trust airlines. They don't trust the FAA either. Like, why are independents not down with flying? Well, it's interesting. You know, I think there's something to that. When you're an independent, I think you're just generally less trusting of institutions, right? And so you have more of an ability to get swayed and maybe getting believed that the government is not looking out for your best interests.

And so I think that that's part of what's going on. But more than that, you're less tied to a political, you know, a certain political way. Right. So it wouldn't be surprising to me if those numbers would generally just move a little bit more quickly. I think it is interesting that their numbers moved more than Democrats. I'd be interested to see which of those independents actually moved the most. You would think Democrats.

Maybe they are independents who lean Democratic, right? Because independents can lead towards a certain group. Among Republicans, I would expect that number to be dropping off. But normally speaking, right, normally what we see is it's that really that center of those independents, the independents who a lot of them don't necessarily vote, the independents who generally speaking had the lower approval of, say, both Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

I think that's the group that we oftentimes, you know, see the largest amount of movement from. And I've been looking at a lot of sort of stats out there, you know, among independents. And there was some nugget. I can't remember what the poll exactly was, but it was like another one of those examples where the Democratic number was actually slightly higher than the independent number when you would have thought otherwise. And it might just have to do with the fact that independents, as you were sort of hinting at, generally tend to be less trusting of

news sources in general. They might be getting their news sources from some place that maybe they shouldn't be necessarily trusting, given the amount of, you know, statistics we have that do suggest that airline flying is safe. But yeah, if you look generally across, oftentimes independents are some of the biggest believers in conspiracy theories, for example. And so that shouldn't necessarily be, you know, the biggest surprise. You

And, you know, independents basically were the ones who were always the ones who had like the higher viewpoints of Russia, despite the fact that you might not expect that given the partisan polarization, the favorable ratings. But independents sometimes tend to be outside of the sort of mainstream political dialogue when there isn't a clear left and a clear right that's going on.

Yeah, I mean, oftentimes political analysts, cynical political analysts will be like, independents are fake. They're all just either Republicans or Democrats, because when you push them hard enough, they vote pretty regularly with sort of the real partisans, the reported partisans from either the Republican or Democratic Party. But there is something about them that makes them unique, that they're not willing to say they're actual Democrats or actual Republicans.

And I think it does come to maybe trust in institutions or skepticism of people

some types of political organization. And so on some things, they probably will view the world a bit different than people who are willing to say that they're part of a party. Okay, so let's talk about the partisan split, though. The day after that American Airlines crash, Trump implied that DEI policies might be to blame. Two weeks later, the administration fired about 400 FAA employees.

And so the question here is just how much of the decrease in trust amongst Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents is basically a reaction to Trump being president.

I mean, I think some of it is. Now, when you were talking about those numbers earlier, Galen, and I was looking at them, you correct me if I'm wrong here. Were Republicans already lower than Democrats were on airline trust? And then basically Democrats have come and

Yeah, Harry, that is exactly right. So.

A year ago, 76 percent of Democrats said that flying is very or somewhat safe. Today, it's 69 percent. With Republicans, it was 70. Then it's 70 now, basically. So Democrats and Republicans are now basically in the same place. Yeah. So I think what's going on here is you might have expected that Republican number to go up. Right.

Right. You might have expected that Republican number to go up based upon the change in the presidency if, in fact, we were getting things falling along political lines. But it didn't. The Democrats fell down, which made you might have expected. But the fact that you now have a Republican in the White House, I think that there are a lot of Republicans who are just going to be generally more trusting in the United States government and anything that it might touch.

So this makes a lot of sense to me that now essentially you might have expected, just generally speaking, both numbers to fall, but because you essentially now have that Democrat leaving the White House, that Republican coming in,

It's not much of a surprise to me that those numbers have generally sort of met and that Republican number didn't fall because you have a Republican now in the White House. But it might have almost certainly would have fallen if, in fact, the Democrat was in the White House. That makes sense to me. There's sometimes numbers don't click. Those numbers click for me. And this is around the edges. We're not talking about full scale sort of.

double digit movement or, you know, a 20% shift in how Americans are viewing things. But does this mean that around the edges at the very least, uh,

So many things have become motivated by partisanship that now even flying and viewing the safety of flying is now partisan. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was a little bit partisan before, right? Republicans were below Democrats before this year, right? You know, you take a look at that last poll. I think it's just a continuation of part of a pattern. You know, you talk about

you know, things becoming polarized along partisan lines. I mean, I was just looking at responses to a Gallup poll from 2023 over whether or not, you know, JFK was killed by one or more people.

And what you saw there was it was to some degree whereby, you know, Republicans were more likely to believe that JFK was killed by two or more people. And funny enough, in that poll, jumping a little bit back to that earlier conversation, independents were right there with Republicans. Right. It was not.

the case where independents were in the middle of the two, they were more likely to believe in the conspiracy theory. So all of this sort of just jibes with me. I'm sort of a little surprised. I don't know why we would think that there isn't some, you know, polarization occurring, even when it comes to something as just whether or not the skies are safe or not.

Um, will that be cash or credit? Credit.

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This conversation makes me think of a recent Ipsos survey, which gets at the much broader question of partisan motivated reasoning. And in this survey, they asked Republicans and Democrats about satisfaction with the federal government. They asked everyone about satisfaction with democracy.

the federal government and uncertainty around the political climate. They found that no demographic crosstab showed any difference in response, except for party identification, which showed a massive difference. In short, party ID matters most for how you view politics.

reality in some sense, or at least the political reality. And all of the other things that we talk about, education, race, wealth, whatever these things are totally irrelevant in the face of just how you identify politically. What does that mean in terms of data collection? Because like, if people are just reporting reality through a political lens and not based on actual data,

either experience or harder evidence, is that going to mess up our jobs of sort of analyzing data for anything other than just reading it as, okay, America's divided? Well, I guess the question is, if you average it all out, does it then sort of... This is the old idea of polling averages, right? You take...

Survey X, survey Y, survey Z, you throw it all into a jam, you spin it all up and you hope that the average works out. Is that where we're going to be? Does that work? Maybe, maybe not. But I think it sort of tells you what you can learn from that polling data. And that is that you try and control for those factors, right? You try and throw in some model and try and figure it out. I mean, look,

It was not much of a surprise when folks were asked about economic conditions in the country that as soon as Donald Trump took office, the Republican number went up and that Democratic number went down. Independence, though, stayed about the same. Maybe there's something there that maybe we're just going to have to rely purely on independence, though, as part of earlier discussion sort of hints at that might not necessarily be the wisest thing because, you know, they're sort of different countries.

Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that problem nearly as much because I'm just using that polling data to try and get an understanding of where Americans are, not necessarily where the reality lies. And those two don't necessarily equal each other all of the time. But it's certainly something that I'm keeping my eye out on. But until I see X reality and then Y polling data, when you look at overall not matching,

Right. So if you take Democrats and Republicans together and independents as well, you can track over time how Americans are feeling with it's better or worse or whatnot. But underneath that sort of

So it fell 10% in January.

January. Democrats had a 21% drop from month to month, independents an 8% drop, and Republicans held steady at high positive sentiment. So in some ways, this doesn't exactly mirror airline safety because independents fell the most when it came to airline safety. But in

It has the same phenomenon that you're talking about, where you might expect Republicans to go up, but because there's been some negative data, particularly when it comes to inflation and egg prices, which I know is a story that you're working on, Republicans held steady, whereas you see some significant drop off amongst the other parts. Yeah, I think that matches exactly right, which is surprise, surprise, surprise. Republicans all of a sudden, you know, are more likely to,

to deflect negative news. Democrats are more likely to, you know, see negative news and then react much more than they would have with a Democratic president. And it'll be interesting to see if the economy, you know, if all of a sudden views of the economy become better, how much do Democrats move? How much do Republicans move? But this is what we're talking about. This is why none of this is surprising, Gail. This is why none of this is surprising, because we see it industry after industry, after industry, after industry, after industry.

Even with football in 2017, right? When we saw Donald Trump go after the NFL. Now, of course, he's embracing the NFL. But when he went after players for kneeling during the national anthem, all of a sudden, Republican views on football became more negative. Football.

Football, which is sort of the last bastion in my mind. I don't ask a fellow Buffalo Bills fan whether or not they're a Democrat or Republican, but basically anything can become polarized along partisan lines these days if there's a reason for it to be. Shot in the dark. Do you have any predictions about the next nonpolitical thing that will become polarized in America? Well, if we have a toilet paper shortage, maybe it will be that. Oh, no. Number two can't become...

a partisan flashpoint. Oh, please, please. Everything can become a partisan flashpoint, even having to lock the door when you're going to the bathroom. I mean, you know, this is one of those things that, you know, I was thinking about sort of airline safety and

You know, when you look at the reality and then you look at how Americans are reacting to it. And I thought about in 1973, I think it was Johnny Carson went on The Tonight Show and basically said that we had a toilet paper shortage. He was quoting some congressman from the Midwest saying,

And there really wasn't one, but he caused one. And then he had to go on The Tonight Show and apologize for it. So sometimes we almost are able to cause things just by our reactions to, you know, a run on the bank when in reality there was no reason to be worried about the toilet paper shortage because there wasn't one. And there isn't one now. So no one listen to this and run off and, you know, buy all the Charmin and the Scott in the store, please. You know, Harry,

your reference to the 1970s reminds me that we used to do a segment called Harry's History, where we just gave you basically the microphone and asked you to talk about a historical moment in American politics. And

This moment that we're in right now oftentimes gets compared to the Gilded Age because of this intense polarization. You know, there are some other trends that folks point to as well during that era when it comes to the economy and frankly the polarization of the economy as well. But

As we begin the second Trump term, what moments in political or election history are you looking to as a guide? I think there are a few. You know, yes, I would say the late 19th century, given the closeness of the elections, the

So, yes, that's one of them. But, you know, there are other ones that it sort of reminds me of. Right. I think this is the most dovish Republican Party in some ways, protectionists since the early 1950s and Bob Taft.

from Ohio, which, you know, was very much there with the international swing of the Republican Party. But another way, I think, you know, speaking more broadly, internationally speaking, it definitely reminds me of the first half of the 20th century. And it reminds me of the 1920s in so far that we have more so than ever before,

at least in my lifetime, we're listening to outside voices, outside parties, right? We're willing to A, you know, in Germany, the AFD, right, all of a sudden gets, you know, what is it, 20, 21% of the vote or something like that. We've seen, you know, in the United States, the Republican Party, we have a two party system here, but we've seen increasingly different views of

getting into that. And in the Democratic Party, it's very similar, right, where we have a left wing within the Democratic Party, more accepting of socialism, democratic socialism, especially among younger groups. We see that fewer if you, you know, you talk about independence and how real they are. We see more folks who are willing to say that they're independent than them when pushed. They still don't necessarily lean towards a party. So I think in that way, we're kind of in that

sort of early part of the 20th century, whereby we're increasingly less trusting of government

And we're more willing to listen to outside views outside of what used to be sort of the mainstream, both on the left and on the right. But at this particular point, because Donald Trump is in power, he is now a mainstream voice. But certainly when he ran in 2016, he was very much the outsider. Yeah. If you've been paying attention to the news over the past month or so, you'll hear a lot about the end of the post-war world order, post-war consensus, the

And if you've been paying attention to public opinion data, you've seen the crumbling of literally the crumbling of that consensus before our eyes in the first two decades, basically, of the 21st century. Right. You've seen Americans fraying in terms of the barrages.

bonds they share with each other, how often they agree with each other, how willing they are to look outside of the consensus to other views, other opinions, whether it's conspiracy theories, whether it's political movements that had become unpopular or fallen out of favor. You can read this all in the public opinion data. I mean, and we've seen the breakdown of it just generally in terms of group voting, right? I mean, we had the smallest age gap in the last 20 years in an election.

The racial realignment seems very much on, especially among Hispanics, certainly among black voters to some degree, especially younger black voters, Asian voters as well. So we have seen this sort of way that we think about politics sort of crumbling before our eyes, and it has become significantly different.

and significantly, let's say, more unpredictable in a way whereby, yeah, the elections remain close, but just like with the airline flying, there's a lot of change going underneath that hood. A lot of, you know, sort of on the surface, everything seems calm, but underneath,

A lot of this, a lot of the waving of the hands, a lot of waving of the paws or whatever ducks have. What are those called? Flippers? Flippers. I guess they're flippers. Feet, webbed feet. Okay. We've talked a lot about American division, but before I let you go, I want to get to a place where most Americans can agree, at least on some of these. So are you ready for a little trivia question? I'll try. Okay.

Okay, this is going to be a brief round of Guess What Americans Think About Airline Etiquette.

This is from YouGov. These five, hopefully not so common, airline behaviors. I want you to rank them from most acceptable to least acceptable based on a survey of American adults. So the first one that you rank should be the behavior that Americans are most permissive of, and the last one will be the least permissive of. So here are the ones that you have to choose from.

asking a passenger to switch seats, letting their children play in the aisle, silently farting, immediately standing up after the plane lands, and lastly, eating strong-smelling foods in flight. Of those five airline behaviors, rank them from most permissible to least permissible, according to Americans. I could tell you what I would think. I'll try and guess.

I feel like asking the passenger to switch seats, as long as you're polite about it, is fine. I would think that would be high up on the permissible level. But you tell me if that's wrong or right. On the least permissible, I'm going to guess that it's actually the strong smelling food, but I don't know. Or maybe it's the children running, but people tend to have patience for children.

Farting silently would be up there on the least permissible list. And then what was the what was the immediately standing up after the plane lands? I guess I'll put that in the middle somewhere.

I'm guilty of it, by the way. Okay, so read it for me. So I'm going to say strong smelling foods are the least permissible. Silently farting is the second least permissible. Those might be flipped. Then I'll say children running, standing up, and then asking a passenger to switch seats. That's from least permissible to most.

Okay, so you're in the right direction on some of these. So the most permissible, you are absolutely correct. Asking a passenger to switch seats, only 25% of Americans disapproved of that in-flight behavior. The next most permissible was silently farting. 46% of Americans disapproved.

I would think here that people are, have grace are giving grace for a bodily activity that is hard to stop. And at least they're doing it silently. But anyway, we, we continue.

The middle one is immediately standing up after the plane lands, which you were correct on that being in the middle. Then the second least acceptable is eating strong smelling foods in flight. Wow, it's the children. And then the last one is children. 86% of Americans said letting your children play in the aisle is acceptable.

Not OK. They disapprove of that behavior. I guess I had more faith that Americans loved kids than actually is the case. Once again, of the American intolerance of children in comparison, I'm sure if you asked Europeans this, they're like, let the children play in the aisle, blah, blah, blah. We should have a special program on the airplane for the children to play in the aisle. And in America, we're like, get those children out of the aisle and while you're at it.

put away that fish that you decided to bring with you on the plane to eat while we were in flight? Well, I gotta say, I'm a little surprised at this number, but you know, the American people, that's why I love them. They always keep things interesting. Unlike myself, who generally is to bed by 10 or 11 o'clock at night normally.

and not hanging out at the clubs because of my elderly age. Harry, you're always young at heart, and it is always a pleasure to speak with you. We're going to leave it there for today. Thank you so much, Mr. Anton. God bless you, Galen Druk. My name is Galen Druk. Our producers are Shane McKeon and Cameron Tretavian. You can get in touch by emailing us at galen.druk at 538.com. You can also, of course, tweet at us with questions or comments. If you're

If you're a fan of the show, leave us a rating or review in the Apple Podcast Store or tell someone about us. Thanks for listening and we will see you soon.