Into Wine
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An Undeceptions podcast. Hey everyone, John Dixon here. This episode is about alcohol. Specifically, we're talking about wine through history and the Bible and how to drink well. So if you're on a journey with sobriety, you should feel free to skip this episode. We have 150 others to choose from. Stay safe. Listen to the rubbish in this book.

Don't drink Burgundy in a boat! What does that mean? Wine isn't just for enjoyment. Yeah, you speak the truth, my friend. I mean, look at this. I looked this up. It says it's worth 7,000 pounds. Nonsense! That's the normal, everyday... normal, everyday drinking wine Freddy gave us. Not the really expensive, out-of-bounds stuff. That's from the cheap and dusty wine on the... on the right.

Not the clean, expensive wine on the left. Not the... That's the cheap and dusty. Not the clean, expensive... Now that I think of it, there's stickers from Londis on the bottles. There isn't any chance, Manny, is there, that you somehow managed to direct us to drink not the cheap wine, but the unbelievably rare and expensive wine, is there? I must have just said the wine costs!

Seven thousand pounds. Well, I've got three pounds fifty on me. What have you got? That's a clip from the British comedy Black Books. There you've got Bill Bailey and Dylan Moran playing the dumb and dumber duo of Bernard and Manny, who realise they've accidentally drunk some very important wine while house sitting for a friend. But there's a solution. We'll mix some more.

What? We'll use some of the cheap stuff. Nobody will ever know the difference. But this costs 7,000 pounds. He's going to present this to the Pope. He won't know the difference. He's the Pope. He's used to the finer things. It's all waffle. Nobody is prepared to admit that wine actually doesn't have a taste. But you can't taste anything. Wine actually doesn't have a taste. That will be sacrilege to the ears of some, including our guest today. She reckons wine is a precious gift from the Creator.

Wine is the second most mentioned liquid in the Bible, behind water, of course. But if we're talking only about liquids you drink, because of course water in the Bible is washed in, crossed over, even walked on once, it turns out wine is number one.

In fact, wine appears more than 200 times in the Bible, 30 in the New Testament, 180 in the Old Testament. Almost all of them are positive references, not critiques of alcohol. And anyone who knows their gospels knows that Jesus drank wine. On one occasion, he becomes the vintner, the winemaker, and it's the best wine, we're told.

Jesus was in fact so publicly associated with wine that he was falsely accused by his critics of being a drunkard. I don't for a moment think Jesus was a drunkard, but the criticism makes no sense if Jesus wasn't already widely known as someone who enjoyed drinking wine with his friends.

Christianity has a long, rich history with wine. So charge your glasses, or don't. Everyone's welcome here. I'm John Dixon, and this is Undeceptions. Undeceptions

This season of Undeceptions is sponsored by Zondervan Academic. Get discounts on master lectures, video courses and exclusive samples of their books at zondervanacademic.com forward slash Undeceptions. Don't forget to write Undeceptions. Each episode here at Undeceptions, we explore some aspect of life, faith, philosophy, history, science, culture or ethics that's

that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. And with the help of people who know what they're talking about, we're trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth out.

Your book is amazing. Wow. Everyone has to read this. Oh, well, thank you. Well, I'm sure we're recording already. So I might just dive into the interview. And, you know, if there's anything you don't like about my questions, you can just tell me that. That's Gisela Kreglinger. She's a former Vintner who now works as a theologian and author with a focus on theological engagement with culture and the arts.

She also holds a PhD in historical theology from the prestigious St. Andrews University in Scotland, where Prince William, the future king of England, went and where he met his wife, Kate.

Anyway, you'll soon hear that Gisela is deeply passionate about wine. She even runs wine tours of the Burgundy region of France and the Franconia region in Germany, two of Europe's best wine countries. We'll put a link to her website, which has all the details in the show notes. And while you're at it, make sure you pre-order her new book, Cup Overflowing, Wine's Place in Faith, Feasting and Fellowship. It's a cracker. Can you tell me a...

a red and a white that you think is generally reliable.

Well, I think for reds, I would maybe recommend a Cabernet Sauvignon that has a significant amount of fruit. And so people find it easy to maybe discover some fruit and maybe some of the tannins, which is sort of a peccary sensations on the tongue and has quite a bit of alcohol. So it's quite sort of, you know, like a strong, rustic personality coming to you. A big Aussie Barossa red. Yes.

Absolutely. Quite out there in your face, luring you into the world of wine. Or, you know, wine that I really like is a German Riesling that has more fruit and more floral notes. And again, it's quite easy to detect, especially the fruit and floral. It's very enticing. Some people like the sweetness of a wine. You know, sweet wines have gotten into disrepute, but this

Some of the most beautiful wines of the world are German Rieslings. And there's a lot of complexity with the fruit and the floral notes. That is an easy way into the world of wine for those who don't like sort of the drier wine.

in more rustic wines. So let Lady Riesling entice you into her dance of being in the meadows, in the fruit orchards, and let the wafts come your way and be enchanted. A German Riesling.

An Aussie Cabernet Sauvignon. Top recommendations. Although you'd probably recommend a French Cabernet Sauvignon, would you? No, I like Australian Cabernet Sauvignons. And I was just in Napa for this film project we're doing on Wine in the Word. And I had all these beautiful Napa Cabernet Sauvignons. I loved them.

Before we go any further, I want to acknowledge again that some of you may have been directly or indirectly harmed by alcohol. For some, drinking is a terrible choice, and we're not going to shy away from that in this episode. Gisela, though, grew up...

in a healthy drinking culture amid her family's vineyards in gorgeous Bavaria. Talk us through your background, Gisela. The idea of growing up in a winery in Bavaria sounds idyllic. Whenever I tell people that I grew up on a winery, the first response usually is,

Oh, that must be so amazing. And they have these visions of a courtyard and you sip wine in the sunsets. And, you know, of course, these things are part of our lives. Skipping through the vineyards, that sort of thing. That's true. I actually grew up at the bottom of a vineyard in a playpen while my mother worked with all the workers in the field in the vineyard. And so that's where I was parked.

So, yeah, I grew up on a winery in Franconia, which is part of Bavaria. And my family has been crafting wine for, you know, many generations, at least 200 years, and have been making wine for the Lord's Supper. Franconia has a winemaking tradition stretching back at least to the 8th century.

That's when Alcuin of York was in Franconia. We think of the Germans as being all about beer, but wine, especially white wine, is a big deal in this region. Did you have a glass of wine at mealtimes, even in your, I guess, later childhood, early teens? Was that a normal thing? Yeah, we weren't allowed as children to drink wine, but in Germany it's

legal to drink a little bit of wine under the supervision of your parents when you're 14, and that coincides with being confirmed in the Lutheran Church. So I had my first glass of wine when I got confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and we celebrated that like a wedding. Right. Wow. Okay. So then you moved to America. Can you describe the...

Is it culture shock? At least the drinking culture difference between Germany and America. Yeah, you know, I've lived in a lot of different countries. And so when I moved to America, and especially the American South, which is very Christian, I was always intrigued by that and realized that I had a lot to learn. And I remember, you know, beginning teaching position at a seminary, and it was a dry campus. And I'm like, wow, a dry campus.

A dry campus, for those who don't know, is a university campus where alcohol is banned outright. Remember, the legal drinking age in the US is 21, unlike most of the rest of the world where it's 18. So it sort of makes sense to ban alcohol on most campuses in America because, you know, 75% of the undergrads are below the legal drinking age.

And I'm like, wow, a dry campus. And the campus looked beautiful. I mean, everything was lush in green, even though it was very hot in the summer and not a lot of rain. But I realized dry campus meant that you weren't allowed to drink alcohol on campus.

So that was a big adjustment for me because I've come from a culture and then I did my, you know, my PhD studies in St. Andrews in Scotland where, you know, you would have reception after, you know, classes and you would get together and you discuss theology over a glass of wine or, you know, in Scotland they would have a wee dram of whiskey. And so moving into sort of an American context was an adjustment in,

that the whole food and wine culture and the way they gathered was very different. And one of the big differences, of course, is that they didn't have wine, but also that the gatherings didn't last for long. I just feel like the people have not developed a stamina for gathering and lingering and discussing and then having another glass of wine and just being together and really hashing things out. But I guess I'd love to know what you think

What accounts for the difference in America, the sort of generalized wariness about alcohol and wine? You talk about it in your book, but can you give us the simple version of why there is this hesitation? Well, I mean, actually in the South where I live, it's a very heavy drinking culture.

So that's very interesting. But historically speaking, you know, especially as it regards to wine, the U.S. has not had a real opportunity to develop a sort of a thoughtful and healthy and wholesome relationship with it because, you know, in the early days, it was very hard to plant vineyards. It wasn't possible on the East Coast.

And so the becoming of this country went hand in hand with drinking rum and then whiskey. And in the early 19th century, the explosion of distilleries that happened in the U.S., you know,

went hand in hand with the Industrial Revolution that also happened in the UK. But that sort of made distilled spirit widely available to the American population. And that's how they came of age. And that's still one of their preferred drinks after beer. Beer is the most popular drink, then it's distilled spirits, and only after that it's wine.

So you have both the ambivalent relationship with alcohol. There's what I call the Zing Yang movement. You either drink a lot or then you have these temperance movements. You don't drink. When Europeans first arrived in North America in the 16th and 17th centuries, they tried, but mostly failed, to grow vineyards. Wine then had to be imported, which made it prohibitively expensive for normal people.

So it was hard to transport the wine culture of Europe to the New World. The early Americans could make stronger spirits like gin and whiskey pretty easily. Distilleries shot up around the country and by the 19th century, America was awash with cheap spirits.

It was a disaster. There was rampant alcohol abuse, especially following the Civil War, with traumatised soldiers self-medicating with spirits. Alcohol-fuelled violence skyrocketed throughout the country. And these abuses led to an understandable crackdown on drinking culture from both religious institutions and the government.

The Christian temperance movement was actually a godsend. It wasn't motivated by purity or being down on pleasure, but by a passion for social well-being. And between 1920 and 1933, strong laws were passed seeking to curb the manufacturing and selling of alcohol right across the states. This is the so-called prohibition era.

According to Gieseler, modern America struggled to develop a healthy relationship with alcohol, with many coming to believe that a healthy relationship with booze was just impossible, and so all drinking was immoral.

What I have discovered is that as a culture, there hasn't been a conversation yet how to sort of develop a wholesome relationship with alcohol and wine and have a conversation about that and then also have some thoughtful reflections about it and also the boundaries around it. For example, where I grew up, usually we didn't drink.

any alcohol before five o'clock. Well, here it is quite acceptable to say, well, it's five o'clock somewhere, or you have a drink over a business lunch or things like that. And that's just not as common where I come from. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's have one of those thoughtful conversations, particularly as it relates to the Bible and to the history of Christianity. So I want to wind back, wind back, not wine back, to the Old Testament.

What are our first references to wine, and what do they tell us? Well, I think the first reference to wine comes with the story of Noah. And it happens after the flood when God makes a covenant with Noah. And really right after that, Noah plants a vineyard. And this is sort of Noah's our first vineyard in the Bible.

So God said to Noah, this is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth. Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. Genesis chapter 9. And that story goes hand in hand with Noah also getting drunk and the story of him lying naked in his tent, his son finding him and that sort of

whole story is very upsetting. So often readers of the Bible don't realize how profound of an act it was for Noah.

to plant a vineyard because when you come off the arc and you have to start anew, the first thing you would want to do is to plant grains because the grains are a fast crop. You have that within a season while with planting a vineyard, you have to wait four to five years for the vines to be fruitful and then to make wine. So I really feel like it was another act of

of faith, just like Noah built an ark years ahead of when the flood happened. Noah planted a vineyard years and aeons before God created this people. It was really a confidence in God's future and that God was going to make them into a civilization.

The account of Noah is one of the more mysterious episodes in the Bible. So much so that we have a whole episode on it with my Wheaton colleague, John Walton. Link in the show notes. An interesting tidbit, though, from the biblical flood account is we're told that Noah's ark came to rest on Mount Ararat.

a majestic peak that apparently straddles the border of the modern states of Turkey and Armenia. This mountain even features on their passport stamps. And I have researcher Al promising me this is true, and so I demand you hold it up for verification. You're right. There it is. That's fantastic. There it is. And what does it say, mate? Can you read the Armenian? I'm still practicing. Come back to me in a week. Okay, I've got some mates who can help you out there.

Anyway, it's from this region in the Caucasus Mountains that the world's oldest winery was discovered just in 2007. It's in the 6,000-year-old Armeniwan Cave in Vyats Dzor in Armenia. Quick hello to my beautiful Armenian friends. Christina, g'day. Hagop, g'day.

In neighboring Georgia by the Black Sea, researchers found the oldest chemical traces of wine in two pottery jars over 8,000 years old. Maybe it's Noah's cellar. Okay, maybe not. But the region is dubbed the Cradle of Wine. It's a happy coincidence that the place where we found the earliest evidence of winemaking is the very region traditionally associated with Noah.

there's got to be some super old echo of oral tradition in that somewhere.

Still thinking about the Old Testament, though, what would you say is the dominant theme about wine in the Old Testament? I mean, there are some criticisms of drunkenness and so on, some proverbs against wine. But are these dominant or is some other theme dominant? I think the most important theme and understanding of wine that it is a gift from God and a blessing. This is how we know God's blessing. It's an abundance of vines and vineyard and wine.

and wine for life and celebration, and that is a theme that occurs throughout the Old Testament. You know, in Psalm 104, which is a beautiful creation psalm that celebrates God as our Creator, it said that God gave wine to gladden the hearts of humanity. "He makes springs pour water into the ravines. It flows between the mountains. They give water to all the beasts of the field. The wild donkeys quench their thirst.

Psalm 104

So you have the sense, yes, creation is a gift and wine is a gift. And it has a very special purpose in our lives. It brings gladness and joy. It helps us lean into the joy that we have in knowing God as our Creator and Redeemer. And it imbues our sort of daily meals and celebrations with something very, very special that sort of lifts it to another sphere.

I don't mean to be at all disrespectful or blasphemous, but would it be going too far to sort of say that the fact that wine - there was a wine sacrifice in the temple is an indication of God's own approval of wine? Yes, that certainly is another indication that, you know, the best of creation was brought to the temple.

And, you know, the temple was an important place where the Israelites celebrated and cultivated their relationship with God. And it taught them that all that the earth brings forth is a gift from God. And so by returning it as a sacrifice, they acknowledged that all was given from God. And so they bring back the first fruit of it. And wine was part of that. So it really elevated wine to something very, very special.

And I think it really becomes apparent when wine is used to talk about the eschatological age, the age to come, God's redemption in the future, whether that is through a Messiah that would come and deliver God's people or whether that was Jesus himself.

in the Lord's Supper, talking about the end of times when He will return, where He says in the celebration of the Passover, turned into the Lord's Supper, "I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Jesus mentions wine a few times in the Gospels. As a Jew, he will have drunk wine at most celebrations. There's evidence of ancient vineyards all around his home district of Lower Galilee. There's at least one ancient wine press we know of in Nazareth itself. I've stomped on it. But the wine in those days was non-alcoholic, right? Stay with us. ♪

This episode of Undeceptions is brought to you by Zondervan Academic and their new book, The Challenge of Acts, rediscovering what the church was and is by my friend N.T. Wright. The book of Acts looks at what happened immediately after Jesus' resurrection. It traces the extraordinary first few decades of the faith as it slowly but relentlessly spread across the Roman world.

Tom's book does a remarkable job of breaking down this epic story into digestible chunks. And in doing so, he captures both the historical details and the deep theological roots of Christianity. The Challenge of Acts, Rediscovering What the Church Was and Is, is available for pre-order now. Do yourself a favour.

and head to zondervanacademic.com/underceptions don't forget the underceptions bit and get yourself a copy today the gen z brides of the day they are exchanging their i do's but they're not serving any booze at their wedding receptions honey our latest besties in messy are none other than the hashtag dry wedding girlies and they're touting the benefits of not having liquor at

That's courtesy of the New York Post, tracking the trend of dry weddings.

And it's not just a thing among religious types. A recent study by the UK site Hitched found that 11% of surveyed couples were considering a dry wedding. Now, the reasons for dry weddings, of course, vary. Respecting the sobriety of friends and family, supporting someone in recovery, and just not wanting to shoulder that extra cost. I mean, seriously? Alcohol budgets at weddings today are obscene. That said...

Jesus wasn't against wine at weddings. Good wine at that. You mentioned Jesus, so let's turn to him and to the New Testament. There is clear evidence of ancient virgins

vineyards in and around Lower Galilee and Nazareth, and they've even found an ancient wine press on the outskirts of the ancient village of Nazareth. Should we be surprised at that? No, not at all. There were wine presses all over the place, and Palestine had always been known for being an area

where vines flourished and where viticulture was an important part of the industry for thousands of years, really. So it's an old tradition. For my listeners who maybe don't know much about Jesus or the Gospels, tell us Jesus' story with wine. Okay. Well, it's very interesting that some of the Jewish teachers that were critical of him

accused him of being a glutton and a drunkard because he was known to hang around with all sorts of people, respectable and not so respected by society. And he shared meals with them. And that's really how he did his ministry in broad. He joined dinner parties and enjoyed wine and drank wine. And it's mentioned here,

here and there. But you know, he was on the road for over three years, and he didn't have his own home. So he would have been with all sorts of believers and outcasts and religious elites and sinners and had a meal with them and enjoyed wine. But really, two of the most important

moments in Jesus' life is at the wedding feast of Cana. He and his family were invited to a wedding feast in a little town called Cana. And it might have been even a priestly home because the jars that were there were made out of stone rather than clay. So we don't know a lot about... Which maintained purity. Yeah, yeah. So we don't know a lot about that. But, you know, the host ran out of wine.

Weddings were a big deal in Judea and Galilee. They could last up to a week, and running out of wine was a huge embarrassment for the entire family. It's kind of the equivalent of forgetting to organize food at the wedding reception. And the entire suburb where you and your spouse are going to live, they're your guests.

And what happens next appears to be the first chronologically recorded miracle in the Gospels. And Gisela does such a wonderful job of explaining it that it's time to press pause. We've got a five-minute Jesus for you. At least, Gisela does.

And then Mary, Jesus' mother, saw it and she turned to her son and said, they have run out of wine. And she sort of knew that he could do something. And though he was hesitant to, he transformed water in the six stone jars of water for rites of purification that the Jewish people did at the time.

His mother said to the servants, Do whatever he tells you.

John chapter 2.

And he transformed it into wine, but not only into wine, into really, really excellent wine. And in that way, the wedding party could go on. And most people probably didn't even notice. I mean, his mother knew, the disciples knew, the people that carried the wine to what I call the sommelier at the party. There was someone in charge of the wine who then said, "Wow, I don't understand this. Usually you serve

the best wine first and then after the party has gotten intoxicated, then you serve the lesser quality wine because it doesn't matter so much. But no, he miracles for an abundance of choice wine. When the steward tasted the water that had become wine and did not know where it came from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew, the steward called the bridegroom and said to him,

Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now. Jesus did this, the first of his signs in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory, and his disciples believed him.

So, it affirms that Jesus gave value and dignity to human celebrations, but he deepens the wedding party celebrations by providing this abundance of wine. So, there's an affirmation of the goodness of celebration, the goodness of joy, and the goodness of wine. But then, I think there's another wedding party altogether.

When the Old Testament prophets talk about the Messiah, they talk about an abundance of wine flowing in feasts and celebrations and even a wedding feast that God has with his people. And so when Jesus steps on the scene and his first miracle is to transform an abundance of water into an abundance of wine, he really steps in as the bridegroom and says, "I am the Messiah." How about that?

Wine as a sign of God's presence. Think about that next time you go to the bottle shop or the offy. I forget what they call it in the US. Anyway, back to the five-minute Jesus. That has a celebratory theme, obviously. Is it also true there's a more solemn sense of the meaning of wine if we go to the end of the Jesus story and it's the Last Supper and now wine is...

is a picture of His own shed blood, which rather dampens the joy, doesn't it? Well, that's a really, really good point. You know, when Jesus first celebrated the Passover meal with His disciples and then turned it into what we now know as the Lord's Supper, we interpret it in light of His own

death and resurrection, you have to remember that the Passover meal, though it was also solemn, it was also a very festive celebration with four cups of wine being drunk over the course of an evening and the Israelites retelling the story of the Exodus and that God has saved them. So when you think about Jesus celebrating the Lord's Supper in those early days,

It wasn't what we experience in church today where we, if we're lucky, we get a wafer and a sip of wine or grape juice. For them it was the Passover celebration and they drank four cups of wine and then Jesus does this remarkable thing. He takes one of the cups and speaks about his impending death and he says,

drink from this cup, this is my blood shed for you. So, why now comes to speak of Christ's crushing death? And yes, there is a somberness to it. It speaks about something that's been crushed. Christ sacrifices life for us.

But you also have to realize that in the Lord's Supper, we don't just remember Christ's death, we also celebrate his resurrection. Out of death comes this new life. And wine speaks to both of these realities. Wine and the whole winemaking process, grapes having to be crushed, pressed.

squeezed of their life and then you have the grape juice and then that grape juice is being transformed so it speaks the whole winemaking process speaks about Christ being crushed nailed to the cross for the sins of this world and it's really interesting in the medieval tradition they had this art

This art form where they depicted Christ in the winepress. And so Christ is crushed in the winepress and at the bottom of it you see the Eucharistic cup that collects the wine that's Christ's blood. So yes, there is this somberness to it. But there's also this dimension that wine brings joy. And what Christ has done for us has set us on a new path.

of eternal life. And that is incredibly, that's the most joyous news that you could receive. So wine speaks to that as well because wine brings joy, gladdens our hearts. And so when we drink from the Eucharistic cup, we both receive

the blood of Christ being shed and we also receive the joy of new and eternal life. You know, wines, good wines can be kept for hundreds of years.

So, wine, like no other food, can speak to us of eternal life, life that will never end. And that even though we experience a lot of turmoil in this life, and we will die, for us, death is a door into the eternal presence of God. And wine speaks to all of that. Well, you can press play now.

Hey all, I asked Gisela for her take on the claim that I keep hearing today that the wine of Jesus' ministry was non-alcoholic, or at least very low in alcohol content. But if you want to hear her answer to that, you're going to have to subscribe to the Plus Feed. Sorry, it's probably worth it though, just for her answer.

The Old and New Testaments paint a pretty consistently positive picture of wine. God gave wine as a gift to humans to enjoy properly in the way he intended. So, how did the early Christians navigate all of this? You write that Cyprian, the great early to mid-third century bishop and theologian, wrote the first defense of wine.

Why did he have to do that? And what did he say? Well, I think the defense of wine has come, you know, third century, probably earlier, because people do abuse it. You know, this is just part of the story of humanity. You know, people receive this gift and they abuse it. And then voices emerged that said, well, it might be better for us not to drink wine.

Wine was a normal part of life for the early Christians, not just at communion or the Lord's Supper, but also at communal feasts and regular celebrations. And although wine might have been too expensive for the very, very poor...

It wasn't an elite drink. People in the lower classes regularly drank wine at meals. But soon enough, the less orthodox branches of Christianity developed an anti-drinking policy arising mainly from their heretical view of nature and bodily pleasure. The Enchretites, named from the word for self-control, disdained the body.

and physical creation and wine of course was a no-go for them in the third century the hydroperastatai were a kind of water only mob that's the hydro in hydroporastatai they insisted on using water instead of wine in the communion meal what drove this was a hyper asceticism which was completely at odds with the earliest forms of christianity

And basically all of the Gnostic sects shunned wine. For the same reason they shunned the God of the Old Testament. They despised creation and looked to the higher spirit to deliver their spirit from the entrapments of the body and its enjoyments, like wine.

But that, my friends, is not Christianity. There are decent moral and social reasons people might avoid alcohol today, but suspicion of bodily pleasure isn't one of them. And thankfully, cooler heads prevailed in ancient Christianity. Undeception's favourite Cyprian is a really good example. He was the third century bishop of Carthage that we featured in episode 112, Cultural Christianity, with Nadia Williams.

When he wasn't giving sermons urging believers to help plague victims, which he had to do quite a lot in the 250s AD, Cyprian was writing on all manner of theological topics, including his defense of wine. Against the teachings of the Hydroperastatai, he said that avoiding wine, actual alcoholic wine in the communion, was so disobedient to the commands of Jesus at his last supper

Removing wine was removing God's grace. Now, I suspect that's an overbold rhetorical flourish, but his view became the dominant view for the rest of church history until basically five minutes ago. Communion isn't communion if it doesn't use genuine wine. That's not the sort of thing we'd normally associate with historic church dogma.

Cyprian and so many other of the church fathers realized, you know, just because we abuse wine doesn't mean we can just sort of delete the whole history of wine and faith. You know, scripture is the foundation for how we conduct our lives as Christians. So they read very carefully both the Old and New Testament and affirmed

that wine is a gift from God, that we are to receive faithfully. But also, you know, wine speaks...

in a very profound way of Christ's sacrifice. The whole winemaking process parallels the sacrificial death of Christ, and yet wine is transformed into something beautiful and new and lasting, just like Christ's death is transformed into resurrection life that lasts eternally. So I think this is what theologians have come back to,

to over and over and over is we need to be faithful to Scripture. And it's not those who are ill and those who abuse God's gifts that determine the life of the healthy, but it's Scripture and the wisdom that we can gain from Scripture in how to receive those gifts well. Is this why in the medieval period, monasteries often engaged in making wine?

You know, that's a great, great question. Why did monks and nuns plant vineyards? You know, one of the really important figures in the development of monasticism in wine is Saint Benedict, who wrote the Rule of Saint Benedict. Gisela claims in her book that, quote, no monk shaped Western Christianity and viticulture more than Saint Benedict of Nursia.

St. Benedict's lifetime straddled the 5th and 6th centuries, a very turbulent period in the history of Italy. Benedict basically established the Western monastic movement,

His rule, that we now call the Rule of St. Benedict, was a several thousand word document that outlines instructions for living as a monastic community. And this influenced monks and nuns for at least 800 years. It was the dominant rule book on being a monastery.

Now, it seems that he would have preferred monks not to drink at all. He thought their work was too important to risk being drunk. Not only did they have lots of praying to do, monks had a very serious scholarly life. And then they had work with their hands for another four to six hours a day.

But Benedict was also aware of Italy's rich history of winemaking, dating back to pre-Roman times. So he settled on what he thought was an ideal practice of moderation. And in the rule, he writes, we believe that one hemina of wine a day is sufficient for each person. Hemina, that's 275 milliliters a day.

or just over nine liquid ounces, about half a pint. By Australian measurements, that's just over two glasses of wine a day.

He operated in Italy, and Italy was a heavy wine drinking culture. And I think St. Benedict, you know, he was quite shaped by John Cassian and the Desert Fathers, and he would have liked a more austere approach. But he realized, you know, I can't really forbid Italians to drink wine. And then he also knew that, you know, that was in the Bible. So he said, you know, every monk and nun is allowed one hemina of wine a day, which is probably about a third of a liter.

And Benedict also, in his rule, said that all monks and nuns have to be involved in manual labor. So they really became very agrarian in their approach to missions. When they set up a monastery to sort of evangelize Europe, they, of course, set up a place of worship. Worship was so important to them.

But then they also developed agriculture. And of course, they planted vineyards because they needed wine for the Lord's Supper. And so that's how that story began. And, you know, wine was an everyday drink. Access to safe sources of water wasn't always guaranteed. But the, you know, the alcohol in the wine killed off a lot of bacteria. And so it was a fairly safe wine.

beverage to drink. So the Benedictines really took off in Burgundy in, you know, maybe

the 9th century with the reform of Benedict of Ariane and sort of exploded over a couple centuries and planted vineyards and became very, very successful. Am I right that the monastery at Cluny became a particularly famous centre? Yes, Cluny became a really, really important centre and it was a satellite monastery called Abbey Saint-Vivant

on the Burgundian Cote d'Or, the golden route where all the Grand Crus are. And it was Benedictine monks who planted many of those Grand Crus. And I actually, once a year, I lead a wine pilgrimage and we go to the ruins of that abbey that is being rebuilt by Burgundian vintners. And we get to follow those in the tracks of these monks and nuns. And we really owe them much.

most of the wine culture that we know now. It's from these monks and nuns who continue to do agriculture, plant vineyards, and craft wine to the glory of God. I believe that they built

what I call cathedral structures into their wines. They crafted wines in such a way, they learned how to craft wine that really exuded a lot of beauty and complexity. So it was worthy to hold the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That was very important to them.

Monks and nuns engaging in winemaking as an act of worship might sound weird today. Actually, I think it sounds awesome. But the Benedictines are credited with the earliest forms of champagne. Monks in Portugal created port. And another monastic order, the Cistercians, are who we have to think for Sauvignon Blanc. Christianity has overwhelmingly endorsed the drinking of wine. It can all go wrong.

That's coming up. In India, hundreds of thousands of vulnerable women and children face a dangerous holiday season with rising rates of sexual abuse, forced marriages and physical abuse across the country. This Christmas, Anglican Aid is helping give these precious people a better chance. And you can help too.

Anglican Aid is partnering with the Bangalore Women's Safe House to provide crisis accommodation for up to 40 women at a time.

But many more of these houses are needed, and you can make that happen by heading to anglicanaid.org.au forward slash underceptions, anglicanaid.org.au forward slash underceptions, and give a tax-deductible donation to their Light and Life Christmas Appeal, anglicanaid.org.au forward slash underceptions. Thank you.

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Ridley College and the Explore Ridley Online initiative. If you've ever thought about tertiary biblical study, Ridley has you covered. I used to work there. It's a wonderful place. The college offers online qualifications in ministry, ranging from diploma to master's level. You'll also get a chance to sit under the teaching of some Undeceptions favorites, including Mike Bergeron.

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I woke up one morning after a night going like, "This is probably not good." And I don't miss it generally now at all. And I know that varies for some people. Some people really still do and some people don't. And when I think of the sort of chaos I used to invite into my life, I'm really much happier now.

That's actor Daniel Radcliffe talking about drinking on the off-camera show with Sam Jones. He's best known for playing Harry Potter, of course, but he has a huge acting resume behind him now. Like many child stars, Radcliffe had some wilderness years where he really struggled with substance abuse, in particular with alcohol. And he made the call to give up drinking entirely. He's now one of the most high-profile teetotalers in the world. Good on him.

And I think there was some part of me that was like, actors have to be like crazy cool drunks. Like I have to live up to this weird image I have in my head of what it is to be like a famous actor or something. And then at a certain point it becomes about like,

Like Radcliffe, heaps of people hit a point in their lives where they realise alcohol has and is taking up too much space. And Christians have been at the forefront of picking up the pieces of alcohol abuse for years.

Many, many churches, especially I notice here in the U.S., have recovery programs as part of their church programs. And the famous 12-step program designed to help recovering alcoholics, that's Alcoholics Anonymous, is actually based on the model of church discipleship. The founders, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, were influenced by Christianity, Bob Smith openly and especially influenced.

And of course, there's that recognition in AA of a higher power. God, as you understand him, it's an essential part of the program. Conscious of the need to be good neighbors. A lot of churches now serve grape juice for communion instead of wine.

Now, for most of church history, and still for Catholics and the Orthodox, that wouldn't be seen as real communion. But it does come from a very good place. Can you talk us through what the tradition says of a more cautious note? I'm sort of thinking from the Bible, really from the Bible, but also how that was reflected in the Father's message.

and through the medieval period, just there was a clear command against getting drunk, right? Absolutely. Be careful then how you live, not as unwise people, but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. So do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit. Ephesians chapter 5.

"Ah, you who are heroes in drinking wine and valiant at mixing drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe and deprive the innocent of their rights." Isaiah chapter 5. So on the one hand, you have this celebration, which you've emphasized, this celebrating wine as a gift. But on the other, a very clear and consistent statement that drunkenness is wrong. Can you just talk us through that spectrum?

Yeah, I mean, and, you know, it meant different things in different periods. For example, when you think about the reformers, you know, mostly what they drank was beer and wine. You know, we don't do that anymore. So people had a lot higher stamina for alcohol than we have today. But, you know, throughout church history, there was always this sense of it's a gift from God, but don't abuse it. Hey, just chiming in here.

Martin Luther was a big fan of God's liquid gifts, especially beer. His wife, Katie, was also renowned for the beer she brewed for him at home.

In a letter he wrote to her in 1535, he complained that he'd drunk some beer, quote, which did not agree with me. I said to myself, what good wine and beer I have at home. And also, what a pretty lady. Researcher Owls put a fun article in the show notes titled The Beers of Martin Luther.

but don't abuse it and don't get drunk. I mean, that's what Luther struggled with. You know, he had all these people coming to him saying, you know, we shouldn't allow people to drink wine because people are getting drunk. And he says, no, you, we must teach people not to get drunk and not,

abuse alcohol and yet have it be part of daily life. And I think through that, in those cultures, and you know, I grew up in a Christian wine culture, so to speak, you know, Benedictine nuns first sort of plant, of course the Romans were there, but in the hills, it was the Benedictine nuns who planted vineyards in the seventh century. And,

So we've had a good long time to really develop some wisdom. And so, you know, in my culture, there is this sense that, you know, you don't drink before five o'clock.

and then there is the sense you don't drink every day and you know on Sundays we would have a glass of wine with our Sunday meal and then we would have a nap and go for a walk we didn't have to sort of get into a car and drive anywhere and so there's a much stronger sense of you don't drink and drive you know this is sort of contemporary but you know that the ins and outs of that wisdom I you know I don't know how how we would capture that but every culture has sort of

has to discern that. And so in my culture, there is the sense that you don't, you don't overindulge and you don't drink a whole bottle of wine by yourself unless you're

You really have like a wedding feast. We're going to be there all day and all evening. And then you drink more glasses of wine. You just drink in moderation. And then even moderation, you know, someone who is a man who is taller and may have a set can cope with a little bit more alcohol than someone like a woman who is petite and uneducated.

you know, can't deal with a lot of alcohol. So I think that sense of moderation has sort of varied even as we sort of look at church history because of the whole custom of people, you know, drinking more wine or beer because it was a safe source of liquid and they didn't have to drive while in contemporary contexts,

You know, everyone drives now and drinking and driving is just very dangerous. You don't want to do that. So you have to be, you know, you have to be very contextualized in how you set boundaries and the sort of wisdom that you develop. Let's understand it and then let's develop wisdom and boundaries around understanding and receiving this gift well. Receiving the gift well.

That handy piece of advice can be applied to loads of things. Christians believe that creation is full of wonderful gifts from God, but gifts shouldn't be abused. Abstaining from drunkenness is the instruction that comes with wine, repeatedly. Working out where that line of drunkenness is, though, can be tricky.

And according to Giesler, the boundaries of what is acceptable are quite a bit wider than many imagine. Readers may get a big shock when they turn to a section where you talk about holy tipsiness and holy intoxication. So talk me through what on earth holy tipsiness is. Well, you know, obviously...

Alcohol has an impact on your body and you can get intoxicated. And that's usually talked about in merely negative ways. And obviously, if you get really drunk, that is not good. And we should not approve of that. But there is a slight level of intoxication that's actually quite positive. It's that level of intoxication where you just relax enough that you can let go of your pretensions, right?

that you let go of your defense mechanisms and you open up to each other. Go, eat your bread with enjoyment and drink your wine with a merry heart for God has long ago approved what you do.

Are you basing this on Scripture, or...

your experience? On experience, but of course the science around it is also there. You know how alcohol impacts the body. But again, I just listened to a neuroscientist talk about how negative that is when you get intoxicated and you are so inhibited. But there's a level of being inhibited

That is actually quite positive. You know, we live in cultures, we have to pretend to have it all together. We're successful and we have to give this appearance of looking glamorous. And we actually long for places where we can just be who we are with all the strengths and weaknesses in the hardships that we go through. So to have a space where we can let loose a little bit and just sort of

You know, I remember in the tasting room, suddenly these confessions happened, confessions of delight and joy, but also confessions of deep sadness and trauma and loss and vulnerability that, you know, Germans tend to be quite reserved and not so forthcoming with their personal lives and

Growing up in a tasting room and watching a whole group be transformed from very sort of uptight and stiff and formal and wanting to appear to be successful and having it all together to at the end people just laughing, crying, sharing, being vulnerable and having really wonderful conversations with each other. That's

German Nüschen. Yeah, German Nüschen. To be too sober. To be too sober as a negative. If you're too sober, if you can't let go and have fun and relax, that's not a good thing. So I think wine can help with that. And that's also important for our celebrations. You know, we need to learn how to celebrate again. Yes, you link wine to relationships, don't you? Can you tell me more about that important connection?

Well, like with all things that God gives, they are meant for relationship. Wine is meant to deepen our relationship with each other, with God, and with the good world creation that he has given to us. And so this idea that you would drink wine by yourself,

It's not a biblical idea. In the biblical times, people always gathered together. I mean, this is how their lives were structured. Today, we live such different lives. But it was meant for families and communities to come together for meals and share wine together. And so I think that's really, really important. And it wasn't just that they shared it with each other. There was this deep awareness that wine was a gift from God. The whole world was given to us.

to nurture our relationship with God and each other. That's how the world was designed to be. We were never meant to sit at home by ourselves and drink a glass of wine and feel lonely or just, you know,

watch TV. We were always meant to gather and be God's people together by sharing meals and sharing wine and lean into joy, even as we go through sometimes really, really hard times, like going through a divorce or having cancer or losing your business or having your spouse die. I mean, life can be brutally hard. And the most important thing we do, we need to cultivate relationships that we can be part of

when life becomes hard as well as when life is beautiful. This is all well and good. But as I spoke to Gisela, I was also thinking of listeners who might be struggling. There may be some listeners whose life has been damaged by alcoholism, either personally or a family member. What wisdom might you give them?

I think it's very, very important to take that seriously, to take seriously the trauma that alcohol abuse brings to families and communities. So my advice is to take seriously your story, whether that's a relative of yours or whether it's your own life. Take that seriously and take seriously that you need to heal.

that it's easy to get stuck in a trauma and not be able to heal. And so I want to encourage all of you out there who are listening to this, and if you have experienced trauma around alcohol, I hope and pray that you can find people that can walk with you to walk that journey of healing and of forgiveness. And for some of those people who have experienced this trauma, they will never be able to drink wine.

But then some might be able to heal from that trauma. Let's say you've had a grandfather who was an alcoholic and really damaged a lot of the family health. You might be able to say, you know, I have this trauma in my family, but I want to explore wine. It is a gift from God. How do I do this well? And that's why I have sort of an appendix in the back of the book that helps people sort of

think through and talk through how to develop a healthy and wholesome relationship with wine and i highly recommend that you don't try to do that on your own but do it in a community do it if you're married with your spouse or if you're single um try to

you know, gather a community that you savor wine with and have some food and see how that can deepen your appreciation of God's creation in the community that God has given you. But I want to say for all of those who have that in their story and history that do take that seriously and do seek help where you feel like you need help.

All good things can be perverted to become bad things. Think strength, wealth, intelligence, technology, sex, food, and of course, wine. Yet they remain God's gifts for a purpose.

And just as we need to work out what the purpose of sex is or strength or whatever in order to use them as they were intended by the giver, so wine can be misused, it can be harmful, but it's meant to be for joy and relationship. Like the best gifts, wine can point us back to the giver, to God. Can you conclude by telling us what you think

wine tells us about reality and God himself. Wine is a beautiful gift.

And the world is a beautiful place. And I think ultimately beauty speaks of our creator and redeemer. So I think to me, wine speaks of a giver who is giving in abundance and generously. You know, we could have just...

had water and bread, but we have an abundance of gifts like wine and all the flavors and colors in the world that really speaks of a benevolent presence in this world. It does to me. Obviously, not everyone will feel that, but if you really discover it and go out into nature, I always feel overwhelmed by what I find out there.

Savoring wine is a very personal encounter with something beautiful. And you might have very different memories that you associate with this wine and very different emotions from the experts. So really, they have put wine into a straight jacket, a rationalized straight jacket of talking about wine when

Really, you can have a very personal savoring experience and it will stir your emotions and call back memories that will help you in your experience and in your conversations. And it will shape things in a very unique way. And you know, this is how it's also with God. God doesn't sort of meet us in the sort of abstract way.

sort of theology or certain confessions that you have. God meets us where you're at, who you are, how you feel, what your experiences are, and he wants to love you and redeem you right there in a very personalized way. And this is really our encounter with wine as well. It's a very personal experience. And I feel like sometimes the wine experts in their talk, they make you shut up.

of your own experiences. And I think that's very unfortunate. So I want to free you and wine for this intimate encounter that it was always meant to be. I notice it's 4 p.m. where you are and where I am. And I'm thinking when it's 5 p.m. and not before...

I will open a bottle of wine and have a glass with my wife and we'll think of all these thoughts that you've given us. I'm really thankful for your time, Gisela. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

If you want to find out more about anything you heard in today's episode, Researcher Al has some great show notes for you. All the links to the books and shows and people we mentioned, some deep dives into the more complicated stuff, and there's a transcript of the full episode too. Head to underceptions.com to find them. They're way too long to put in the notes of your podcast app.

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Send. If you have questions about this episode or any of our episodes, you can send it my way. Send us an audio or text message via the links in the show notes and I'll try and answer it in an upcoming Q&A episode. See ya. Bye.

Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dixon, produced by Kayleigh Payne and directed by Mark Fosters Hadley. Alistair Belling is a writer and researcher. Siobhan McGuinness is our online librarian. Lindy Leveston remains my wonderful assistant. Santino DiMarco is chief finance and operations consultant, editing by Richard Humwee. Our voice actors today were Yannick Laurie and Dakota Love.

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