The Stanford Prison Experiment
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Welcome back. Did you miss us? I bet you did. I bet. I mean, of course you did. Probably some people more than others. Yeah, definitely some people more than others. But you know what? That's life and I'm okay with that, honestly. That's true. Let me just crack this open. We are currently drinking High Noon Sun Sips. It's a vodka soda mango situation. Made with real juice. Make sure that's real juice, y'all. Yeah, because we're like really healthy. We're health conscious. Every time we drink, we have to make sure that it's

Organic. Mm-hmm. These are really good. There is no correlation between this topic and the alcoholic beverage we have decided to drink. No, for sure. I mean, we did say that it could be thought of as innovative and...

I don't know, scientific in a way. Scientific, right, right. Right? Like canned vodka juices are a thing of... Yes, the future. You could say that. I mean, the present and the future now. That's true. But speaking of topics, today, this is Claire speaking, if you don't know my voice by now. Hello. You better have studied it. Yeah, you should have. And you can differentiate in a second. Worshipped it. I'm going to talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment. When you said that you were going to do this one...

I truly was more excited than ever before. Oh, wow. Because I just love like this, these kinds of like psychological things. Yes. I know nothing about this. Mm-hmm.

And I just was truly really, really happy. Well, I also – when I decided to do this one and I got started on my research, I was like, ooh, should I have left this one for Tess eventually? Because Tess is actually from Palo Alto. Please, please. Please. And if you don't know, Stanford is in Palo Alto. That is true. I'm actually excited to have you here for the –

I'll stop the sentence there. I'm excited to have you here. But to like, you know, if there's anything about Stanford or Palo Alto or – For sure, yeah. I don't know much about Stanford. Can't say that that was ever a school that I – Your place of residency. That I was thinking of going to. That 9% acceptance rate back in the day really shot me down. I don't think I ever wanted to go to Stanford though. I didn't even try to go to college. So –

Welcome to your history podcast from the girl that didn't go to college. That's what we love about this, though. That's true. That's why we're relatable. We are relatable. But yes, Rep Palato, that's 650. Yep. I'm happy to hear of any places that sound familiar, and I'll say a little shout out. Maybe something I did there. Absolutely. I've been to a frat party at Stanford. Oh, I would love to go to a frat party at Stanford. It's not what you think. Is it horrible? It's like...

No offense to anyone who went to Stanford, but it's just kind of like a whole bunch of nerdy people. Yes. Like tech, like 17-year-old tech bros. I bet anyone who went to Stanford is not listening to us right now. That is true. They're like, delete, delete before they even play it. Like, this is disgusting, actually. But yeah, I mean, I first heard about this when the movie came out.

What movie? It's called... The movie is called The Stanford Prison Experiment. I have not seen it. It's an IFC film. The guy who plays the...

The lead researcher is – I'm looking up his last name. Oh, Billy Crudup. Is that how you say it? Is it really? I find him sexual in a way that is just – I don't even feel like I have to explain it. I feel like a lot of people might agree with that. Is he the one on the morning show? Yes, he's the one on the morning show. Oh, he's very sexual. He has this like essence to him that is – Oh, God, yes. Wait, why do I feel like we've talked about this before on another episode?

I don't know if we talked about it before. This is a Billy Crudup podcast now. And our guest for today. I did recently watch – oh, my God, what a dream. I did recently watch – what is that movie where they're in Santa Barbara? 20th Century Woman.

Oh, Jesus. And he's in that. Yeah, no, he's great. Yeah, he really is. Shout out to Billy. Shout out to Billy. But he plays kind of like the lead psychiatrist that we're going to learn about in the movie. And there's lots of like young actors who are just killing it now. Ezra Miller. Oh, I can't wait to watch. Yeah, it's good. It's a good movie. But that's the first time I ever heard about this. Got it, got it.

And then lots of research. Shout out to the podcast You're Wrong About. Got a lot of info from there. Love. Got a lot of info from just the website and the actual study that is made public and available that people study till this day. I can't wait. Should we just get into it? Yes. Yes. I'm on the edge of my seat. I hope you guys are all too. I'm going to crack open another one of these. ASMR. ASMR.

Oh, also just a heads up to everyone. You guys don't know this, but I usually print out my notes and today I have joined 2021 and I'm reading it off my phone. Oh my God. What the hell made you do that? Times are changing. Laziness mainly. Also hard to find a printer sometimes. Yes. And protect the environment. Of course. Of course. Of course.

Okay, here we go. The Stanford Prison Experiment. And by the time you're listening to this podcast, there will be an Instagram post up with all the pictures. Swipe through those. Follow along. Swipe through those. Yes. All right. So what is the Stanford Prison Experiment? Tell me. I'll tell you. It is actually one of the most famous psychological studies of all time, but it is also one of the most controversial studies in the history of social psychology. Okay.

Wow. We love controversy. We really do. We had a whole discussion about it earlier. So it was conducted at Stanford University, obviously, in August of 1971 by a research group of college students. And it was led by psychology professor Philip Zimbardo. Billy Crudup plays Philip Zimbardo. Yes. I wonder if he really looked like that in real life. Probably not. Probably not. He wishes.

I mean, we could look them up and see how it looks now. But definitely not as charming, I would say. That's okay. It had other qualities. Yeah, exactly. So what the actual study was is that it took participants and assigned them to be inmates or guard at a mock prison that they created in the Stanford Psychology Building. And Zimbardo and his colleagues were interested in finding out

Whether the brutality reported amongst guards in American prison was due to this word, sadistic personality of the guards or

which I didn't know what sadistic meant. When I hear that, I think of Satan. I was going to say I think of the devil. Yes. Is that not? It's not like you're evil. I mean, it is kind of evil because the terminology for sadistic behavior is deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others. So it is evil and it does kind of – Relatable. Yeah. Am I sadistic? Yeah.

No, I'm not. I don't enjoy that. Yeah, no, no, no. Me either. No, no, no. Of course not. So is it that –

the guards had sadistic personalities, meaning it was – where is that word? Dispositional. Like is it because they have these personalities or is it because of the prison environment and the power structure? So is it more situational? Kind of like nature versus nurture. Yeah, exactly. So it's like do guards innately have personalities that make conflict inevitable with prisoners because –

Do prisoners just have personalities where they disrespect the law and guards are just usually more domineering and aggressive people? Or is it the power structure that makes these people butt heads? Totally. Right. Also, it's like –

Psychology is just obsessed with like trying to figure out why we are the way we are. Exactly. And I think like the core of everything is like, are we good? Yes, exactly. Or like, have we just all become fucked up based on our circumstances? Right. Or like are humans born with these qualities that like we can't escape from? Right, exactly. And it's like also people just want an explanation to the evil around them. And we'll do anything to find out.

Yes. If it can be changed. Exactly. Exactly. So he was super curious about that. And, you know, that is why he did this experiment. And we will see soon after the experiment began, the guards did begin mistreating the prisoners. And the study is cited to say that it's evidence that there's this ancestral gene that we all have, that it's like an impulse that

that with a little nudge, we could all become tyrants. That is like what he is trying to set out to say. So that's what he was trying to prove? Yes. He believed that before he started? He believed that before he started. And he was like really big in prison reform and all of that stuff. Um,

And yeah, but that was his idea. And so he was like, I'm going to create a prison and with like average people, assign them as guards and prisoners. And let's see if they take on these roles or if they'll just be like, we're just dudes hanging out. Wow. How did he find the people? We'll get to that. We'll get to that. I do just like, because I did a little shout out to, because I think this is fascinating. Yeah.

The study was inspired by the Milgram experiment, which is, it measured the willingness of participants to obey an authority figure. Basically, these participants thought they were in a different study.

And they told the participants that they would send electric shocks into learners, like their counterparts, and that these fake electric shocks would gradually increase the level that would be fatal if they got answers wrong. And so basically they were saying if people would do it because an authority figure told them to do it or if their conscience would step in and be like, I'm not going to do that.

Interesting, because every experiment like this, the participants have to be oblivious to the reason they're there, right? Or not always? I don't know. And this one, I think...

If you're oblivious to the reason why you're there, it's probably more effective. Right. Because if I'm going in knowing why I'm there, then I'm not going to shock the people because I'm going to be like, well, you're going to try to see if I listen to authority. Right. Yeah. I've just always wondered that, like, obviously with like sleep study and things that are like, of course we know what you guys are trying to figure out. But in something like this, that's so psychologically like manipulative.

Do you have to lie to them about? This is the thing about the Stanford prison experiment, what you just said. Jesus, no, you scared me. I know. I feel kind of like on edge. Me too. And I apologize to everyone because like this is kind of like an on edge episode. Every time we're like talking about psychological stuff and also it gets pretty dark. Yeah. I feel like uneasy. Take another drink. You'll feel better, baby. You always do. Here we go, everyone. Cheers.

So he was inspired by that experiment. Got it. So let's get the study on the road. Zimbardo put out a local newspaper ad in Palo Alto calling for volunteers and a study of the psychological effects of the prison life. So he did say that. Okay. So anyone –

Could apply? Anyone could apply. I believe so. I'm like, I wonder if my parents applied. Well, maybe. How old was your parents in 1951? They were in 1954. My mom just graduated from high school. Shout out to you, Cindy. Love that. So like teenagers. They definitely could have applied. But your mom... My parents were in Palo Alto in the 70s.

Just kidding. They got there in like late 80s. Right answer is mostly tests. Wow. That's why we're here. I always imagine my mom being in the Bay Area in the 70s. Nope. Okay. It's a gorgeous site if you picture it. It really is. So 75 applicants answered the ad and they were given a diagnostic interview and personality tests.

personality test to eliminate the candidates with psychological problems, medical disabilities, and a history of crime or drug abuse. Makes sense. It's like a jury. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do they do that with juries? I think you have to be like non-

Like opposed or like not predisposition. Right, right. You know, like if you're – like probably if you have depression. Right. Yeah. You can't be on – You can't be on the jury? Well, they would never have jury members. Well, no. Like I think if there's something like mental health related to a specific incident – That makes sense though. That makes sense. Someone look it up. I'm already feeling so miserably disappointed. Well, no, no, no. But that's also the thing and it's like you guys know what you signed up for with this podcast because –

When I started researching it, I was like, holy shit, what am I doing here? Like, I don't know what you guys are saying. But that's like why we're here. That's true. To learn together. That's true. And no, I know that most people have depression. I take that back. And then everyone listening is like, I'm not depressed. So what is wrong with you two? God. Like I know every day is really just a dark one. A dark one. I was like, we're actually really

happy. Good for you guys. Let me know how that goes. Let me know what you're taking. No, literally. Um, so the seven, oh yeah, we already went there.

24 men judged to be the most physically and mentally stable, the most, in quotes, normal, were accepted to participate. Just men? It was just men. So that's why I'm wondering if – no. Hello. We're back. Yes, it was just men that was the applicants. Also, in the 70s, I feel like it's still a time where it's like just men for everything. Yeah, and they're like, we wouldn't want to do this to a woman when she's home with the children. Yeah, exactly.

How could she ever leave? Yeah, exactly. So it was just men. Got it. And the 24 applicants were actually all white middle class men. So we'll talk about that later too. Was that purposeful?

I don't know if it was personal or – what did you say? Purposeful. Purposeful. Or personal. It could be both. It could be both. But that is the – well, also, okay, so this is a good point. I'm thinking Palo Alto in the 70s is probably mostly middle class white people anyways. Yeah.

I'm sure. I'm not exactly positive of the demographic. Me either. Before now, which is obviously a different story. Yeah, and I've only been to Palo Alto once. I think – I'm sure in the 70s it was very middle class. Yeah, yeah. Very white. I think it's always been super, super white. Yes, okay. So exactly. So that was like kind of what they were picking from. There was one Asian American participant. Got it. But the rest were –

White as bread. So the participants didn't know each other prior to the study, and they were paid $15 per day to take part in the experiment, which is – we love these. Inflation? Yes. It would be $163 today. Not bad. Sorry, $100.63. Okay.

I need that $63 to participate because otherwise it's not worth it. Yeah, $100 seems a little – if you were getting closer to $100, I'd be like, I'd do that. Yes, but also it's like you think about it, this is 24 hours a day. And this study is supposed to be for two weeks.

So – Cheap. Stanford, come on. Yeah. We know you have the money. Come on. It's not a cute look. But they're also like, we know that people will do anything. That's true. Can you imagine $15 a day? I mean, now it is $100 a day. Yes, I sure can. We've all been there. Yeah, we sure have. We're actors in LA, right, guys? Let's hear you. Let's hear you. So, okay, what exactly was this prison? Because they weren't actually going to jail. So they had to create a prison. Yeah.

In the basement of the Stanford University Psychology Building, it was just a 35-foot section of the basement. Yeah, it's small. They created this corridor because it was like a hall with one side was like one room closet and the other side was like three office rooms.

Um, and the, the hallway was called the yard and that's, was the only outside place of their cells where prisoners were allowed to walk, eat or exercise except to go to the toilet down the hallway. But prisoners had to be blindfolded so that they didn't, so that they didn't know which way to get out of the prison. So they were really trying to disorient. Yes. Yes. Like they were trapped at this place and, and,

it's just like already is giving me anxiety thinking about that. Yeah. So I'm sure like fluorescent lighting. Oh, exactly. It's like, it's a, it's a seventies basement. Yeah.

It's tough. Each cell was six by nine feet and contained only a cop for the prisoners. At the end of the hallway was a small opening, which they videotaped the events and were kind of watching that as it was going. And on the opposite wall of the cells, there was that small closet I was talking about, which was called the hole. And that's where the solitary confinement was.

It was dark and about two feet wide, two feet deep, but tall enough for a, quote, bad prisoner to stand up. But I bet he was, like, hunching still. Oh, God. I'm so claustrophobic that this is literally starting to make me, like – Also, like, we're trying to figure out our room situation with recording and everything. We look crazy. We're, like, in a hot room right now with pillows around us and, like, a blanket hanging from the wall. Yeah.

Yeah, our editor was like, we need to work on sound. And so I'm just kind of feeling like we might be in that solitary confinement currently. We're method podcasters. Exactly. And we're also blindfolded right now. Exactly. So we know exactly how they feel. Yeah, totally. Let's see how we are at the end of this podcast. See if we've done something to each other. Yeah, if we survived. Not like, I don't know anything. I'm just assuming that. Yeah, well. Maybe. I don't know. So there's an intercom system which allowed them to secretly bug the cells to monitor the prisoners.

And there were no windows or clocks to judge the passage of time, which later resulted in some disorienting experiences. They're basically like in a coffin is how I feel. Yeah. No windows. Like I need natural light. Oh, God. Mm-hmm.

Oh, and no clocks. You know, you really don't think about that, how important it is for us to have some sort of like sense of space. Oh, I would lose my mind. In this world. And even if someone was like, you have to do it for two weeks, like. Oh, it's making me anxious. So like I, we had a COVID scare not that long ago and I had to sit in a room for five hours and I'm like, I'm not going to make it out. I'm not going to make it out. It's too much. I thought you were going to say five days. No.

five hours guys like watch a movie and it's like tears oh when you were waiting for a result oh I see I was like what what were you doing like why is it such a short amount of time like that's as long as the quarantine yeah it's only five hours of quarantine for COVID I don't know why everyone's making such a big deal about it yeah yeah Jesus um so that was what the prison was it's not holiday um

So how do we decide how the prisoners or who's the prisoners, who's the guards? And they did this by flipping a coin. Also, talk about like $100 seems way more worth it when you're a guard. Yeah, no kidding. Than when you're a prisoner. Because the prisoners were literally confined there for 24 hours, like could never leave. And the guards were just on shifts. So they could go back home? Yes. I think so.

think so. Right answers mostly. But like they did not have to stay in the yard in the prison with them. Then they had different shifts. Got it. But the prisoners were confined there 24 hours a day and we'll see what they had to go through and their conditions soon. So it's also like that's just I mean it's just luck at that point. Wow. Life's all about luck. Sure is kids. So 24 subjects divided into 2, 12 prisoners and

12 guards. That's right. That is right. And Zimbardo, Billy Crudup, took on the role of the superintendent and an undergraduate research assistant took on the role of the warden. So now we have our subjects. We have our jail. Let's begin the experiment, shall we? Yes. This is so crazy to me that they did this. They,

Did a full-on arrest. So they had real Palo Alto police show up without warning to each prisoner's house and arrest them, like threw them on the cop car, patted them down in front of all of their neighbors. They even had a reporter from San Francisco come and act like, what are you, what'd you do? Like, we're here for the arrest of so-and-so. Oh my God, were these all field actors? Yeah.

Like, if you guys need any help, call me. Yeah. Like, it seems like they were a little too into it. Like, too into it. Wow. So, like, those cops didn't have anything else to do? Oh, honey, don't we know about that, right? Yeah, don't we know about that? All my college listeners in high school, we all understand this. Yeah. So, it's just, like, and it's also, like, can you imagine trying to explain that to your neighbors later? Like, it was fake. Yeah, like, guys, don't worry about it. We were just playing around. We hate this neighborhood. Like, these guys, right? So, they charged them with armed robbery.

But they did the whole thing. And then they took the prisoners to the Palo Alto police station where they got like their fingerprints done. They got mug shots, like everything that you would do if you actually got arrested. Then they blindfolded them and took them to the Stanford psychology building prison. They're like, we don't want you to see how beautiful this campus really is. Yeah.

Don't look at that foliage. Yeah, like literally. And so they had no idea where they were going, which just talking about it, you sign up for this project, but I don't feel like they knew what they were getting into. Like that's a scary thing. If someone bursts in here right now and arrested you,

Like, even though they had already applied, it's probably – did they not tell them they were accepted? No, they did. And they let them know that they'll be prisoners. But they never – they didn't ever give them warning of, like, at Tuesday, someone's going to come arrest you. Oh, so trying to make it feel as authentic as possible. Yes. Jesus. Exactly. So – but the guards –

Did have an orientation before, but the prisoners did not. Right. They didn't need to know, like, what they're going to be doing. Exactly. And I'll come back to that in just a second. But going back to the prisoners, when they arrived at the prison, they were stripped naked, which, like, by these guards. So it's, like, just by another stranger who's, like, also your age, which is weird. So they're stripped naked. Yeah.

De-loused, which, you know, checking for lice. But also, I think it's like they have this can and they just spray it all over their body because you have body hair everywhere, especially as a man, to make sure you don't have lice anywhere. I should have used that can in high school. Yeah. No joke. I had lice so much as a kid. Yeah. I'm so sorry to share that with everyone. I mean, I, too, got one when I was 18 years old. Oh, 18 is always tough. Always tough. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I digress. I do.

Um, okay. So they, they're delousing them. Um, where are we? Okay. They had all their personal possessions removed and locked away and they were issued a uniform and, um, their uniform. So weird. It's a dress and they did this purposefully because they wanted to, um,

Is it… Emasculate. Emasculate. That's the word. They wanted to emasculate them and humiliate them, which also like… Guys, I don't know. Dresses are fantastic. Right. But think about in the 70s. In the 70s. Like women just stopped wearing dresses like… Totally. 10 years prior? Totally. It's like a very feminine thing. Yeah.

Now guys would be like, I don't want to wear a dress. No, totally. That's something – yeah. I'm sure that's the history of – Yes. Yes, absolutely. Also, it's like you're so fragile that you put on a dress and all of a sudden you're like, I'm not me anymore. Yeah, what's that say about you? Yeah, what's that say about you? Take time to think about that.

So they had to wear a dress. Oh, this bothers me so bad. They couldn't wear underwear at all. Guys, I hate going commando. I just don't like it. It's so unsettling. It's so unsettling, especially in a dress. Yeah. Easy breezy. I mean, I know what it feels like as a woman to not wear underwear with a dress, but as a man, it must feel even different. More stuff going on. Different wrists. You catch my drift. Quite literally. Literally.

Exactly. So they were wearing a dress, no undies. They had, they lost, basically they were like, you no longer have names when you're in this prison. And they went by numbers that were patches on their uniforms. And that was their prisoner ID. Each prisoner had a chain, a heavy chain that was on their right ankle. It was apparently very uncomfortable, which I'm sure made it like hard to sleep or do anything like that.

Um, and each prisoner's hair, they had to wear a stocking cap made from women's nylon stockings as to simulate having a shaved head. But they looked like a bunch of idiots. Like, oh my God, it's so haunting and weird looking. Like, it just looks like someone was wasted and got dressed at night. It's very odd. Wow. Yeah. So that's a prisoner's outfit. Um,

And they were confined 24 hours a day. In contrast, the guards lived a very different life and were separated from the prisoners, given rest and relaxation areas. They were just, like, going to happy hour. Exactly. And they were just, like – it was chilling for the guards. All guards were dressed in identical khaki uniforms and carried a whistle and a billy club borrowed from the police, which I'm, like, we're just giving, like, young boys some clubs. Yeah.

Is that the only weapon they had on them? That is the only weapon that they had on them. Unless you count their hands. Is that foreshadow? A little bit. Not too much, but a little bit. Yes. And they wore special sunglasses that were like so contrasted that it made it impossible for the prisoners to see their eyes.

Noah did not like that. Noah did not like that. And I wouldn't like that either. I draw the line. Imagine being a dog and not being able to see someone's eyes. I know, Noah. That must be scary. It's unsettling. I know. You scared of the Stanford Prison Experiment? Noah is Tess's dog, by the way. Also known as Tubby. We're like, Noah's our best friend that's sober right now.

talk to him like that. You're my boyfriend, actually. Yeah. Someone actually did think that Noah was Tess's boyfriend that one time. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was like, I have to go back to him. He's like, damn, she's really in it, isn't she? If you're a dog owner, you know. You know, you know. Yeah, so I don't know. It just probably looked like a really weird Halloween party with everyone there together. But it's like they thought this

obviously this is a high end professional experiment with people in this field, but just everything from like the stockings, making them feel bald. It's like they're ripped of their humanity of personality, self-worth. They exactly. It was very calculated. And, and, you know, they had an orientation, like I was saying before with the guards the day before the experiment, um,

And they were instructed to not harm the prisoners physically or withhold food or drink. They were advised to do that is what Zimbardo said. Foreshadow. Yeah, exactly. We love foreshadowing. We do. It gives me a little oof. I like it. And then Zimbardo told the guards that the prisoners' life is totally controlled by us and that they'll have no privacy. We're going to take away their individuality in various ways. We want to make them feel powerless. Okay.

So they were instructed to do whatever they thought was necessary, except physical abuse, to maintain law and order in the prison and to command their respect to the prisoners. So they could go to the bathroom by themselves? The prisoners? Yeah. No. The prisoners had to be blindfolded and escorted by guards. God, it always stresses me out thinking about, like, pooping. Oh, well, just wait. I can't stop thinking about it. The pooping is really getting test, not the other thing. Yeah. The pooping.

I mean, I get it. Like psychological torture? I mean, already, like if I – I don't know. It's just like it sucks to be a prisoner. Yes. Like it's so different. Yeah. Yeah. So first day is pretty uneventful. And then at 2.30 a.m., the prisoners are awoken. Is that a word? Awoken? Awoken? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Selzer might have not been the best idea. I am burping at the storm. Me too. I keep like trying to go away from the mic for Christmas.

You hear this? You know what to do. So, okay, okay. Everyone's like, please stop talking about poop and burping. It's like, it's relatable. Yeah, we're like. Everyone poops. Everybody does poop. I think there's a book about that. There does. Yeah, there is. Okay. So the prisoners were awoken at 2.30 a.m.

From sleep, obviously they were woken, by blasting whistles for the first of many counts. And what these counts were is where they like lined them up all in the yard, which was the hallway, and made them like go through and, you know, say their numbers. And it was thought of as a way to keep them in order and also a way as them to identify themselves as these numbers now instead of their names and like to dehumanize them more and

It's a little upsetting, but also like

This is the first day. And so I'm just thinking like if I was a prisoner and this is how it kind of went and I saw someone my age like telling me to do that, I'm like, fuck off, dude. This is an experiment. This is real. It probably feels like a play. Yes, exactly. And so a lot of the prisoners were like, no. I wonder if anyone even laughed. Yes, they did. Like they definitely – people at the beginning – I'm sure there were like a few prisoners that were like, I'm going to take this seriously. Yeah.

But there were a few who were like, who cares? This is stupid. Right. Well, the guards did not like that. And they started automatically making them do like push-ups as like a punishment. Were they –

Were they allowed to do that? Yeah. Or this was something that they came up with of, like, spur of the moment? They came up with it spur of the moment. Okay. Because they were allowed to do anything besides harm, then? Yes. Exactly. Except for, like, physically, like, punch them in the face or something like that. Or, like, you know. Okay. Darker things. Oh, boy. Yeah. So then they started doing push-ups. But besides that, it was a pretty unbentful day. But on the second day...

The prisoners in cell one block... Blockaded? Blockaded? Blockaded. Blockaded. Their cell... I promise I can read, guys. It's a lot of pressure right now. It is. It's so much pressure. Sometimes you forget everything. You do. And that's how you know you're in the art. Exactly. So they block... They push up things against their cell door with their beds and they took off their stocking caps and they took off their numbers and they refused to come out and follow the guards' instruction. And they begin to taunt the guards and like...

Call them names. This is day two. Day two. Men. Men. But also, like, I don't blame them, too, because it's like, you know this is all fake at the beginning, and you're just like, fuck off. It's literally like the kid that gets the lead in the play, and you're like, dude, it's just a play. Like, stop it. Calm down. And, like, all the, like...

People that don't have any lines are mad at them. Oh, that's exactly what it is. It's like the lighting people. Theater kids. Yeah, the tech nerds are like, we hate you actors. That's literally what is going on. Also, like, you didn't even have to do Stanford Prison Experiment. Just like go to a group of theater kids. Literally. Once again, it's not like high school. This whole thing is really reminding me a lot of high school. And it will. And then it gets a little dark. But yes. So that pissed them off clearly. And also, it's kind of like,

You're put in this position of power and then you have other people being like, I'm not going to take you seriously. Right. Which is what this whole study is about to see how people react to that. So those guards call in reinforcement because they were on shifts. So they call in more of the guards who weren't on shifts and the nighttime guards stayed overnight because we were like, we will stay to help you figure this out. How many guards were usually on shift at a time? I think three. Three.

Three. But at this point, they had nine because they were like, we cannot get them out of their cell. I'm just imagining these men. They're like, damn it. Like, what do I do? And so what they decided that they were going to do is take a fire extinguisher and shoot a stream of –

skin-chilling carbon dioxide into the prison cell, which then obviously makes everyone, like, move back, and then they break open the door. From there, the guards broke into the cell, stripped the prisoners naked, took their beds out, and then forced the ringleader of the prisoner rebellion into solitary confinement. And then they just, like,

Begins to, like, harass all the prisoners from that. So they, like, took it to zero to 60 real fast. Oh, my God. Guys, I was just joking. Like, shut up. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yes. So speaking of always having one person who is, like, too much. There's always one. There's always one. Almost immediately, a guard named Dave Eshelman, who...

Was later nicknamed John Wayne after the guard in the movie Cool Hand Luke. He kind of takes charge. His dad was actually a professor at Stanford and this kid went to Chapman at the time. Oh, Chapman kids are the worst. I knew Tessa was going to have a reaction. I knew it. And like, honestly. No shame. Or no. Whatever. If he went to Chapman, you probably agree. Yeah.

It's a great school, but there is just something about those Chapman kids. Yeah, there's just something about them. I'm going to slap them across the face. Yeah, and Dave Eshelman was no exception. He was too much. He almost immediately kind of takes on this persona of a guard, like right when he gets the clothes on. I assume if his dad's a professor at Stanford, he's from California, he starts talking with this –

old southern accent like it's so cringy and it's so gross and he just takes on this persona of like john john wayne is what they called him oh god this literally reminds me of someone i used to date who chris you're gonna blank out the name who i'll okay we'll talk about it later yeah because it's just that's the one i don't want to reveal too much

But, like, just also, like, what a loser. Literally. God. So he – but he comes up with this idea that's, like, okay, we're not going to be able to have nine people on the whole time. So we have to figure out a way to control these prisoners with just three of us. Let's, like, fuck with them psychologically is what he thinks. This all happened so quickly. So quickly. It's day two. It's day two. So –

He was like, let's use psychological tactics instead of physical ones. And what that turned into was a privileged cell. So he's like, let's create one of the cells and that's where we will make them think that's where the good prisoners go. And you get privileges such as you get your uniforms back so you don't have to be fucking naked. You get your beds back. You get special food to have in front of the other prisoners. He's like, let's fuck with their minds.

And, oh, this one makes me so, they were also the special privilege cells. You got to brush your teeth, which the other ones, they were like, let's take that away from them. At my drunkest, at my highest, I will always brush my teeth. Oh, really? Do you? Do you? No, I'm genuinely like, if I'm really drunk, I really brush my teeth. Yeah, no, I get it. And this has been an issue with a lot of people. No, but...

Please. Yeah. Dental hygiene. No, that does. I have so many other things that make me disgusting, but this one is one that like it irks me if I don't do it. Oh, wow. God, I really admire that. Thank you.

Well, I would lose my mind if someone said you can't brush your teeth and that is what they did. How did they know how to do this? Like there are these kind of average Joes that are like let's do psychological tactics on them. That's what I'm wondering. Of trying to put a certain number of people in this group in a position of like privilege and not. I don't think I would think of that right off. That's kind of like a crazy thing to think of. I had the exact same thought. I was like it's kind of like –

evilly brilliant. Yes. Like how are you that smart? Yeah. Someone else is listening and like immediately they're like, you got to do psychological. They're like, that was the first thing I thought of. You guys are idiots. Well, you're dark. So yeah. Hey, we're good people. We're angels. That's why we wouldn't have it. We can never do something crazy or evil like that. But I agree. It's like, that is very strange. Um,

So, yeah, the privilege cell. Yeah, they also got to eat special food in the presence of other prisoners who temporarily lost their privilege of eating, which, again, it's like I thought Zimbardo told you all, like, don't do that. Is he aware? They're watching the whole time. So they're not going to reprimand what the guards are doing? So I think that he was kind of watching and was like,

And I want to talk about some – we'll talk about some things later. But I think he was watching and was like, don't stop them. I just want to see how far this will go. Of course, because I guess if you do intervene, then what's the point of seeing how these people act? Yes. But also, like, God, I wonder what, like, they had to sign and, like – But it's also, like, the 70s. So, like, did they have to sign anything? I guess if you go without food, you can't survive without food for two weeks. Well, and the study was supposed to be two weeks. Like, let's hold on to the end. Yeah.

Maybe I am evil. God. But also, like, torture to, like, see other people eat good food. What is good food in this case? Like... I don't know. So I'm just going to refer back to what I saw in the movie because I was, like, kind of going through it last night as I was falling asleep. I can't watch a movie all the way through to save my life after 4 p.m. Yeah, yeah. But I saw, like, fast food things. So I think they might have brought some, like, fast food in for them. Oh, yum. Yummy. Yummy.

Yeah, so someone's like eating a quarter pounder in front of you and you're not eating at all. They just bring like oysters in. Oh my God, that would be our torture. I know, I'd be like, I can't do it. I'll be good, I swear. It's like, it's been 24 hours. I'll be good, I swear.

Okay, just have this thought. I think it's fun for the listeners. What would be your food that would torture you? That's a great question. Yeah. Mine would be oysters. Yeah. But it has to be with like sauces and...

what's it called? Like the, like a country mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have to be like the whole thing. Not just like an oyster. Like, please, you need that sauce. Yeah. You need the sauce always. Yeah. Also mine would be like something like Mexican food or something. Maybe pasta, maybe a good, like, I'm so sorry. Um, so yeah, again, privileged self. They got, they got good food. Um,

Okay, so they go even further with it. Then, after a few hours, the guards would randomly, and I think this is from this John Wayne documentary,

would start switching the prisoners around and then on the privileged cell, they'd be all of a sudden like, you got to go back to regular cell. And then they'd switch out the other prisoner and you get to go to the privileged cell. And they did this because they wanted to think, they wanted the prisoners to think that other prisoners were ratting them out. And they wanted them to think that because they wanted the prisoners to turn on each other. This is all from the guards. Like that is...

That is sadistic. Like, that's crazy. That really is. Yeah. Because that's not what they were told to do. No. They were told to be hard on them, but that idea he came up with. God, I just need a burp break every second. Same.

But I can't stop drinking it. As she reaches for it? Yeah, exactly. So they did that to break the solidarity of prisoners. And it did, but it also bonded the guards. Because they were like, guys, we're in control now. And we run this shit and we're better than them. Right. Mm-hmm.

Yep. God, so this little asshole is just like looking behind the mirror. What's his name? Zimbardo. And he's just like, his fingers are tapping together like, ha, ha, ha. Like, actually, it's very strange. Zimbardo loved the theatrics, which like comes with the dress and it comes with things we'll see later. Like, very theatrical guy Zimbardo was. So they started being...

They started upping their aggression even more. They started being super controlling over, Tess, this will trigger you, over the bathrooms. Oh, God. And how long and how often they could go. They made rules around that. And then ultimately, the prisoners, guys, we're still on day two. Well, I think we're going into day three now. Ultimately, the prisoners had to just use a bucket in their cells, but the guards wouldn't empty it because they said the smell was punishment. Right.

Like, have you ever heard of just, like, a bad day? Like, give me a fucking break. Wow, I wonder what they're, under this amount of stress, can you even go to the bathroom? Well, also, it's like when you travel, sometimes you're irregular. Yeah, or you're just, like, truly... Too regular. Yeah, it could be. I digress. Once again, stress out about the bathroom situation. Yeah, it's a stressful situation. The smell just, it's like a tiny room and... Also, they're literally doing everything they can at this point just to, like, really fuck with that. Yeah, already. Yeah.

Okay. I'm excited to get to this. Less than 36 hours into the experiment, prisoner number 8612, Doug Corpy is his actual name, began suffering from acute emotional disturbance, disorganized thinking, uncontrollable crying, and rage. It's like a Monday for me. Like, and? Like, show what? So...

He started having a breakdown 36 hours into this, which again, I almost had a breakdown five hours into my quarantine. Right, right. And I was in my lovely sister's home in Atlanta, like gorgeous surrounding. Right. Your pee wasn't like just sitting next to you. You're like hungry and tired. Exactly. So I understand it, Doug. I do. Where'd you go?

Okay. God, this is the hard thing about phones is that they scroll. And they keep scrolling. And they keep scrolling. But I want to tell you guys about him. 36 hours. Okay. We're back. There's a video of his breakdown. And I'm going to play it for you guys. Oh, God. I'm really scared for some reason. Don't be. Okay. Just lean in. Okay. So let me pull this up. This is Doug, prisoner 8612, having a breakdown. Okay.

It almost sounds like a movie. Okay, interesting. Remember that Tess said that later. Just remember that she said that later. The don't you know kills me. Don't you know? It's like very transatlantic. Yeah.

We'll make her a star. You're shaking. Yeah, I'm smoking sugar. Don't you know? I should drive my crazy in here. Yeah. It's like the fact that he was like, I'm burning up inside. Was it hot in there? What was the AC like? Probably that's how it feels right now and I'm sweating. Can't came in. So that was 36 hours into it. Oh my God. I don't mean to laugh, but also it's like the don't you know kills me. Do you know anything of the contract they signed of like, if you are, if you want out, could you get out? So yeah.

Because now I'm just really freaking the fuck out. Yeah. And we're going to go into it more. Zimbardo says that they knew that they could leave at any time. I don't think that they knew that they could leave at any time. And we're going to learn more about that. Okay? You guys just hold on. Be patient. And this is how we keep you listening. Yeah. So, yeah. It says, Jesus Christ, I'm burning up inside. Can't stand another night. Okay.

And the guards reacted to him by telling him he was weak. And they told him what kind of abuse he could expect from the guards and prisoners if he were in San Quentin prison, which is like, wait, what? Like, if someone were to tell me that, I'm like, but I'm not there. Right. I'm not an actual – I signed up for some fucking little thing in the newspaper. Yeah, exactly. Like, please stop. So very weird that they said that. Yeah.

Number 8612, or Old Dougie, was given the offer to become a snitch in exchange for no further guard harassment. Which I also don't know what, like snitching on what? Right, what are the prisoners doing? That's so. Yeah, you see them, they're in their cell. But even saying, I mean, that's just a psychological tactic. Yeah, it is. Saying to someone, you're on our side. Yes. Wow, you're exactly right. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. Yeah, so if you snitch, we won't, you know,

harass you and he was told to think it over during the next count prisoner number 8612 you know the counts where they're all lining up told the other prisoners you can't leave you can't quit and he was just like saying that the whole time during their count which is the other prisoners are dark like whoa what yeah it's just like you see him having a breakdown all of a sudden you're just like you can't leave you can't quit 36 hours in guys

And then, okay, so then they said that number 8612 began to act crazy and in a rage that seemed out of control. And it took a while before the researchers were convinced that he was really suffering and they had to release him. So they let him go. Oh, they did? Yeah, they finally did after he said he was burning up inside. I mean, don't you know?

Oh, my God. Yeah, so he's gone. He gone. Has he talked about it since? Okay, yeah, yeah. No, I'm sorry. I have so many questions. I just don't want to ruin it. No, no, for sure. I'm just, I can't. I can't sit still. I know, I know. So they let him go. So the next day, again, Zimbardo with the theatrics, they had a parents and friends visiting day.

And they were worried that when the parents solid-stated the jail, they might insist on taking their sons home. So to counter this, they made the prison environment seem very pleasant and benign. They groomed the prisoners. They had them clean and polish their cells. They fed them a big dinner. They put music on the intercom. And they even had, quote, an attractive former Stanford cheerleader greet the visitors at the registration desk, which is so weird. Gross. Gross. Gross.

Yeah. So they were like, we cannot show the real us. But were the prisoners allowed to be like SOS? Well, they also were like, let's do an experiment on the parents. So they made it really inconvenient the whole time. They had to go talk to the warden first, which was just, you know, a research student. They had to go through all these hoops and then they cut down the visiting hour from an hour to 10 minutes. And

And they were like, we wanted to see if they would comply with it. Which it's like, yeah, they're going to comply with it because they want to talk to their son and this weird research thing. And they're like, even though they're inconvenienced, they did it. Which I don't really feel like proves anything. Right. The parents were also like,

But the parents were truly like, my son is unwell. So they noticed that there was some sort of unsettling nature. Exactly. Like, why is my son in a dress? I don't know. Yeah. Why does he have that nylon sock on his head? It's very strange. Why is he trembling and sobbing? Yeah.

Exactly. And then Zimbardo said, when one mother told me she had never seen her son looking so bad, which also like it's the fourth day. And they're probably like pale. Yeah. And bags under their eyes. They've been stripped and all that stuff. So when one mother told me she had never seen her son looking so bad, I responded by shifting the blame from the situation to her son. What's the matter with your boy? Doesn't he sleep well? Then I asked your father, don't you think your boy can handle this?

Ooh. So he gaslit the shit out of the parents. Wow. Mm-hmm. But you're like, why? Well, I mean, he just liked to mess with people. God. So many questions. So many questions. That would be so weird. Yeah. It's like, I guess that they, if they weren't doing this, what would the experiment be?

be like like they just would be waiting outside there's not like it gives them excuse of how fucked up they were but like was there some motivation of like well let's at least like quote have fun with this he loved having fun he wanted his result i'll say that zimbardo wanted his result

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place.

You guys, they have everything. So from like the day you get engaged, you can start planning on Zola. You can find the venue there. You can create your save the dates. You can make your registry. You can make your wedding website. Even to the final stages of tasting your cake, Zola has everything.

everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan

your wedding from the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. And I'm already revealing a little bit, but like, but like, yeah. Cause then what else would this be? Yeah, exactly. It would be watching people sleep. A nothing sandwich. So he's really trying to see like what like psychological torture and power can do. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Which kind of goes back like with him saying that to the, I think it's the Milgram experiment where it's like, will you just listen to authority if you're told that? Or will you do what your conscious tells you to do? Right. But it became so much more.

Yeah. I mean, it already has, but it's just interesting. It's like you see your son suffering, but you have the person who's in charge being like, well, you don't think he can handle this? Right. And so you immediately then your reaction is like, oh, then something is probably just innately wrong with him. Yeah, exactly. You're like, oh, well, he can handle it. He needs to buck up. It's fine. Let's buck up. So...

Oh, this is tough. After the visit, rumors spread. After the visit with parents and friends, rumors spread of a mass escape plan that these prisoners, like, we're getting the fuck out. And that the guy, Doug, who had left was like, I'm going to get you guys out with me. Oh, my God. So the guards freaked out. They, like –

Yeah.

That's one way to put it. And so you could get so sick. Oh my God. I bet my mom is truly like listening to this, having a mental breakdown. So sorry, Deb. But like, it's so gross. Like people poop in there. Yeah. So they had to clean a toilet with their bare hands and the guards were just like, we're going for it. And then Zimbardo invited a Catholic priest who had been a prison chaplain to evaluate how realistic the prison situation was.

half, they did say half of the prisoners introduced themselves by their number rather than their name. Interesting. And when they were, Oh God, their identity has already been completely stripped away. Yes, and it's like three days. And then when they were like writing a letter to their parents too, like there was a prisoner who signed his letter by his number rather than his name.

Never forget who you guys are. Deep down. Wow, it is so Lord of the Flies. It is. It is. This is also upsetting. The only prisoner who did not want to speak to the priest was prisoner number 819. And he was feeling sick and refused to eat and wanted to see a doctor rather than priest, which like, yeah, yeah.

And eventually while talking, then they were like, just talk to the priest. And so the priest would come in. Yes. The priest came in because he was like, they wanted to make it feel like a real prison. Like, and he had been like a prison priest at some point or whatever. And so he came in to talk like, again, Zimbardo being like super theatrical and like some things are like, it's a little unnecessary. He's like, make them start singing something from Greece. It's like, let's just see how far this can go.

And so finally he broke down and began to, to talking to, to, to the priest. He broke down and began to cry hysterically. And so the psychologist removed the chain from his foot and the cap off his head and told him to go into a rest, to rest in a room that was adjacent to the prison yard, to the hallway. Um, they told him they would get him some food and take him to see a doctor. Um,

But while that was going on, one of the guards lined up the other prisoners and had them chant out loud, prisoner number 819 is a bad prisoner. Because of what prisoner number 819 did, my cell is a mess, Mr. Correctional Officer. So he's just in like the hole basically hearing all of his peers chanting about how he fucked it up for them.

psychological torture oh my god it's like just so intense at that point um uh they said oh my god we realized that he could hear that it's like yeah no shit you probably loved that he could hear that um so they went back into the room where they found him sobbing uncontrollably they tried to get into the the like psychologist and zimbardo they tried to agree uh get him to

agreed to leave the experiment, but he said he could not leave because the others had labeled him a bad prisoner. At that point, Zimbardo said, listen, you're not number 819. And I never found out what his actual name is, but he said, you're that person. And my name is Dr. Zimbardo. I'm a psychologist, not a prison superintendent. And this is not a real prison. It's just an experiment. And these are students, not prisoners. You can go. Oh, he said that?

Yeah. He's like, just go. And then he stopped crying suddenly, looked up and replied, okay, let's go. As if nothing had happened, which is very weird. Did he go? He did. He left. He left. So people are dropping like flies. Yeah. You could say that. Yeah. It's just strange that all of a sudden it's like it clicked for him that it wasn't real. Yeah. So we're getting close guys, because it's like day four or five.

Um, I'm winking. So at that point, no, wait, no. Okay. So the next day, all prisoners who thought they had grounds for being parole or for being paroled. So I think that was like all of them, uh, were chained together and individually brought before the parole board, which was just graduate students. Um, the, they, they told the prisoners that,

If they forfeited the money that they had earned up to that time. Oh, they told the prisoners, would you guys leave if you had to forfeit the money up until this time? And most said yes.

Then they ended the hearings by telling the prisoners to go back to their cells while they considered their request. Every prisoner obeyed, even though they could have attained the same result by simply quitting the experiment. But here's the thing. Those prisoners never, clearly, they never thought that they could just quit. Right. That wasn't even in their head. No, they were messing with them so much. And then being like,

Would you give up all your money if you could leave right now? Do you think that you could just say, like, yeah, I'm going to go if people are asking you that kind of shit? Damn. Yep. Okay. One prisoner developed a – this says psychosomatic rash over his entire body when he learned that his parole request had been turned down. Remember that, the rash, okay? Yeah.

Triggering. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, I just got a rash after I went to Mexico. Full body. It was show tough for Tess for a while. She couldn't wear crop tops. Devastating. It's like when they were going through, they were sad they couldn't wear crop tops. I actually relate on such a deeper level to them now.

I get it. Oh, my God. So, prisoner number 416, a newly admitted standby prisoner, expressed concern about the treatment of other prisoners. The guards responded to him with being more abusive. I understand it sounds like it's just like all we're doing is talking about how they're just getting more abusive, but this is the psychological study of it all. They, when he refused to eat his sausages, that's what it says. Who would ever refuse that? I would have. Yummy. Yummy. Yeah. Yeah.

Shout out to Vienna sausages. Now you guys hate me. But I loved them as a kid. Yummy. So good. Yeah. It's probably why my friend who I mentioned before, yeah, Emma. Emma. It's probably why she's a vegetarian because I made her eat them before. Oh, I mean, hey, nothing wrong with that. I love them. Same. Okay. So he starts going on a hunger strike and the guards instructed the other prisoners to repeatedly punch on the door while shouting at 416. Okay.

And they said they would, because they put him in solitary confinement, and they said he would be released from solitary confinement only if the other prisoners gave up their blankets and sluts on their bare mattresses, which all but one refused to do. So they were like, no, fuck that. He can stay in solitary confinement. So they're just turning on each other. Oh, God. So Zimbardo had intended that this experiment should run for two weeks. Right. But on the sixth day, Christina...

A recent Stanford PhD was brought in to conduct interviews with the guards and the prisoners. And she freaked out what she saw, what was going on. Yeah. Which honestly, it's like, finally we get a woman in here to be like, let's stop this madness. And everyone needs a woman in their life to say that. This is not, this is a proof that women should run this country.

And everything. Yep. Yep. What does? What does? She was like, what the fuck are you doing? These boys are unwell. You have to stop this. Would you imagine walking into that? God, no. It's so crazy. It's like these, like, 20-year-old boys. It's just like frat house gone psychologically wrong. Yes. Well, it does kind of sound like Rush from what I've heard. Oh, God, yeah. So dark. So she freaked out. And so on August 20th,

He's like, yeah, new after 12 hours. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's like, this isn't fun for me anymore. Right. He's like, now people are literally like. Yeah. So on the sixth day, it is shut down. And say how to like have sessions with everyone after being like, you did?

And they're like, no. I'm sure not. And the guards are like, we're good. Yeah. We're good drunk. See you later. So Zimbardo's conclusions, the authors and their conclusions suggest that innocent people thrown into a situation where they have power over others will begin to abuse that power. And people who are put in situations where they are powerless will be driven to submission, even madness. Yeah.

They said that none of the guards showed sadistic behavior before, but then they did. Therefore, these findings support the situational explanation of behavior rather than the dispositional ones because they were like they weren't sadistic before they came in and they're sadistic now.

So, guys, I'm not – oh, my gosh, Noah. I know. I'm like – I'm like talking about all this dark stuff and I'm looking over at this dog. I'm posting this on Instagram page of how cute he is right now. He's literally just on the back wagging his tail. You guys are going to love this and it's going to be a bright spot. Put it on. Yes, baby. I know. I know. So that in total is the Stanford prison experiment. But I'm not done with you guys yet. We're not done.

Here's the thing. People have had this in textbooks. They have studied this for years to show the power structures. This study is actually kind of full of shit. I'm so sorry to disappoint you. What do you mean?

There are so many things wrong with this study. And this is, if you listen to your wrong about, they'll go into details of why we should never study this study of showing how our psychology works. There is so much wrong with this study. Shall we begin? Yes. First of all, they were all white middle class men, except one Asian American.

So you can't say that's how the prison system is at all. Like already with science experiments, I mean, I learned that in fifth grade. Like it's very subjective. Right. You have to have diversity in any study. Yes, of course. Of course. And like in prison, it's not just all white middle-class men. So that's one thing. So this was supposed to be a study of the prison system, right? Structurally, the Stanford prison experiment is much, much closer to a prison of war camp or concentration camp.

In prison, yeah, in prison there's an existing hierarchy already. You don't go into prisons –

That are being made spontaneously with guards at the same time. What happens is you go into a prison, just one person, and there are decades long of the social system in place. And the guards have standards of behaviors that have been built up for years. So it's not really teaching us anything about prisons in the first place. Right. Because it's not a prison. It's not set up like a prison. Right.

This is a big one. Zimbardo turns out was actually encouraging the guards to push them to hysteria, which kind of ruins the whole point of seeing if people take on the power. Right. Like let it happen naturally. Don't be like literally abusing someone. Yes. Because of course that's going to happen. Exactly. So at the beginning of the study, he's telling them, make them feel worthless. Make them do that.

So then already the guards go in being like, I got to make these people feel like a piece of shit. That is my job now. Instead of letting it happen naturally.

Right. There's no neutrality to this. No. It's so like devised. It's so planned. Yeah, yeah. Already. And so then it's like, why even do an experiment in the first place? Because you're controlling it too much. Yeah, yeah. Zimbardo also stated that participants only had to state the phrase, I quit the experiment in order to leave.

But transcripts from a taped conversation between Zimbardo and his staff show him stating, there are only two conditions under which you can leave, medical help or psychiatric. And when you're in that, you're not really thinking, I need psychiatric help. Exactly. So he never told the prisoners, you can just say, I want to leave at any time. Actually, I forgot to say this. That priest told these prisoners the only way they could get out was with legal help.

This is priest. This is a fake priest. Like that's a horrible, it's a horrible thing to say. Did God support you doing this? We're going to pray for you priest. Yes, we really will. We're not a man of God. Yeah. God. So that's obviously like, no, that's, you're making shit up that they thought that they could leave. You can't. Um,

Let's see. Yeah, if you have a study and know what kind of result you want to get out of it, then it's really hard to make sure that you don't confirm your bias. Yeah, it's tainted. It's tainted already because he knew exactly what he wanted to get out of it, and so he did it. The guy with the rash that we talked about, how he broke out in rash, apparently he had eczema and they took away his medication. So it wasn't a stress rash. He had fucking eczema. Yeah.

Well, so all these people involved are just idiots. Yeah. Like, actually, Dave Eshelman, a.k.a. John Wayne, he said he was making it up and playing a character from Cool Hand Luke. He

He said he was a theater major. There it is. There it is. Of course. The guy I dated was also a theater major. This is what I'm saying. Were you dating him? Was I? Time traveler? Maybe. He said he was doing a lot of improv at the time. But Zimbardo does point out. Theater majors are the worst. Improv is the worst. I was once. I can say that. It's not like the Chapman kids. I wasn't one and I'll say that. I'm just kidding. I love you guys. Shout out to Hannah. Shout out to Katie. Shout out to Susie.

But Zimbardo does point it out. And I'm with Zimbardo on this one.

He's like, he has every reason to say that he was pretending because he was notoriously the biggest dick in all of that prison thing. Right, of course. So it's like, that's really embarrassing. But I feel like he really did take on that persona and he was not like, I'm an improv, so I'm going to, like. No, if you're making people clean the fucking toilets with their bare hands, you have some darkness in you. That's not just acting. A hundred percent. And it's like, of course you're saying, well, I was just faking it all along.

Speaking of faking it, our prisoner that had the freak out also said that he was faking it. Just because he wanted to leave? He said that he was playing along with the game, but he has changed his story so many times in interviews.

Like when he's with Zimbardo, he's like, no, I was in distress and torture. And then like a few years later, he'll be like, I was faking it. And then a few years later, he'll say that he was. Well, that also proves that he suffered something from this. Yeah. Absolutely. Story straight. Absolutely. A central fact is that not all guards were sadistic. Only about three of the guards were.

ever really acted shitty. So about a third of the guards, which you also have to think about, like a third of men are just going to be shitty no matter what the situation is. It's not the prison. Right. And no matter if they're acting or not, if that was a choice or not, they still were shitty and still made people feel upset. Right. But you can't necessarily say it was the prison that made them do that. Like if all the guards came out and were,

But it was only three of them. Wow. The other ones did follow along, which is interesting, but they weren't actively being like that loser talking with the Texas accent. Right, right. So that kind of like disproves what he's trying to prove. Yeah. It almost proves the opposite of what they were trying to prove because it's like you gave them all this ammo to degrade people and still only one third came out sadistic. Yeah.

But, you know, it's just like there's all these revelations on how it's kind of bullshit and there's pressure to take it out of textbooks and teaching now. And now Zimbardo describes the study as more of a demonstration and not an experiment. Well, he said he does now. Yeah.

Yeah. But also, it's like Zimbardo, you called it the Stanford prison experiment, so you can't really say that. You can't take it back, sweetheart. You really can't. And he, like, loves that it's being demonstrated everywhere. Yeah, he seems like a copula lasso. Yeah, he's very, like, it's too much. Too much. I think he had good intentions because he was, you know, prison reform and all of that. It's like, but then it all goes out the window. But not to say, like,

people did lose their mind. Like all of that is very real, but what he was trying to prove it, you can't with this experiment. Right. Cause it was so planned and so tainted. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I never even thought about that. I mean, this whole time I was even like, Oh my,

People are innately evil. That does prove everything. But yeah, if he's telling them, whispering in their ears, you torture them. Yes. Turn them against each other. Then what is the point of this whole thing? Right. Exactly. And that is all. And like, I'm sorry that I probably popped so many people's bubbles when I'm like, and it's all out the window. But that's even another part of the ecological factor.

Exactly. And the thing is, it's like we all just want to understand why people are evil and why people are the way they are. And sometimes it's just like people are complex and

And they're everything all at once. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly what it proves, if anything, with the guards that a third of them were doing this. And then the other ones were like, all right, I'm just trying to get fucking $160 or $100.63 a day. And the other guards, I'm sure, were like, guys, you just took off a week of pay for me for being an asshole. Yeah. It just shows that there's such a variety of reactions based on different factors that we probably can't explain in a lot of ways. Yes.

I think people also, like, we all feel powerless in some way. Yeah. Every day of life. And so I do think, you know, of course there's going to be a majority of people that are put into this and that are like, we want to feel superior because we usually don't feel like that. Right. Exactly. And humans are so malleable. Like, it's hard to say how you would react in a different situation. Like, it's just crazy. And it is crazy. Like, you are what you believe, you know? Yeah.

And I feel like he had good intentions and like it is an interesting experiment if he didn't control it the whole time. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. Wow. So that is the Stanford prison experiment. It is so fascinating. I think it's fascinating too. And the movie is, I actually really enjoyed the movie too. I would love to watch it now. They're all like, all those actors are phenomenal actors in it. So I really like it. And that all happened at Stanford. Yeah.

what's their mascot a tree it's a tree because that's like palo alto tall tree what if their mascot was like the prison experience they're like it is someone having a mental breakdown covered in hives it's the eczema people with poop all in their fingernails welcome to stanford university

If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. God. Well, that was truly, I mean, you did such a great job. Thank you. I've never heard really much about it, except I knew it was like, oh, what happens if people turn on each other? But that was the most information I've ever gotten about it. It's a lot. It's a lot of information. And I hope you're going to a dinner party tonight and can bring up this discussion with people. Yeah, and see what other people know. Because everyone, obviously, I think a lot of people have heard about it, but

I mean, I'm shook by a lot of revelations. Yes. And it's, you know, it makes you think when you're told what to do. Are you going to do it? Yeah. Are you going to fuck shit up or not? Yeah. Well, that's up to you. It's choose your own journey. Noah knows what he wants to do. Noah knows exactly what he's going to do. And he is going to try to ruin people's lives. Yeah. Exactly. Someone at the door, he's going to try to ruin their life. Exactly. It's okay. Oh, but guys, we...

I love y'all. I love y'all too. I like to pretend I'm Claire. We have a guest that is arriving, so we must wrap up. Yes, we're very popular. Yes, we are. You know where to find us on Instagram, at WriteAnswersMostly. Please like and subscribe. Give us a five-star rating and DM us what you want to know the history on. We want to hear from you. We want to get involved. And also just go out and be nice to people, unlike the guards in Zimbardo. Okay?

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