Conversations: For the Love of a Good Man, Gays in the Ancient Greek Military w/ H. Voss
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poorly microphoned introduction. And why? Why does my microphone sound funny? Well, because I'm in Greece, so you will have to forgive me. I am currently in between the two group trips that we've had this year. We are rocking our way through Greece. It's so hot.

And I've just woken up, so excuse me for being bad at ad-libbing in this moment. Today, I am here with another conversation episode. Today, I spoke with Harrison Voss about, well, gays in the military. Gays in the ancient military. Gays in the ancient Greek military, if we're going to be really specific. And we are gays.

We talked about just generally same-sex, same-gender relationships in the ancient Greek world, obviously applying to men because, let's be honest, we don't really have much in the way of evidence of women, but the relationship between men is fascinating, and Harrison has done a lot of research on that. He is both a writer and a poet and an all-around enormous nerd for this. I mean,

Who doesn't want more of these kinds of retellings, but also digging deeper into those ideas. So check out the link in the episode's description. We really dove deep into this topic. We talk a little about the Sacred Band of Thebes, but also just this broader idea of these kinds of relationships in the ancient military, because turns out, what huge surprise, there have always been gays in the military.

And a quick note about this episode, we did record, honestly, a handful of months back now, so there might be references here and there to the overall terribleness of the world that haven't aged or have. Conversations for the love of a good man. Gaze in the Ancient Greek Military with Harrison Voss. Hi, how are you? Thank you for coming on my show.

I normally am better at introductions than this, but here we are. It's been a day. Yeah, no worries. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

I'm happy to have you. I, we were talking off mic, but now it's on, but I'm always so thrilled to have, I mean, I will always take any and all topics about like queerness in the ancient world, but specifically, I mean, gay is in the military. I think that is a, you phrased it off mic. So I won't pretend that I can't, that I said that first. I did steal that from you directly, but I'm so interested. Like, how did you get into this? Can you tell me a bit about your background? Like, where are you coming to the topic from?

Yes, absolutely. So I guess to begin with, I should say that I'm not a formal scholar. That's fine. Neither am I. We love it. But I...

I guess let's go all the way back to the beginning. So when I first became interested in ancient Greece as a kid, a lot of kids do, and then like throughout middle school and high school, you know, became very fascinated in it and studied it then in college. And my senior year of college, I opted for

various personal reasons not to do a thesis, but I was like, okay, if I'm gonna do not write like a big BA history senior thesis, then I want to do like take history seminars and like do kind of independent research tailored to you know, my interest in ancient history. And so at that time,

Again, I apologize if this is kind of rambly, but like... No, no. And also, I'm sorry to throw you in, and then it becomes like, oh God, right off the bat, like try to tell a life story. So don't... No pressure. No worries. And also like my sort of like academic interest in ancient history is very weird in that I entered it kind of through the medieval back doors, I like to say, through the Eastern Roman Byzantine Empire, which...

I'm not sure how much you know or your listeners know, but was the continuation of the Roman Empire into the Middle Ages. And a lot of the awesome stuff in ancient Greek that we know and read about today is from them. They were preserving it, commenting on it, riffing on it. And

Their culture really from late antiquity all the way to 1453 when the empire ended was really imbued in this ancient culture, this ancient Hellenic culture specifically. And so I was fascinated by that civilization, really wanted to study it in college.

Didn't really do my due diligence when I was applying to college because there was only one history professor in the department who, like, I could have used as like a major advisor in Byzantine history. And he left my sophomore year. So I was like, all right, work. I guess we're going to go. We're going to go back to ancient Greece because... Okay, that is funny. Yeah. That's...

I've always been fascinated in the ancient world, and with Greece in particular, I loved... I don't know. I was just kind of like a nerdy kid. I loved Greek myths and really Greek-Greek history, and I'm also a very stereotypical boy history lover, and I love military history. And...

Now with this route of studying Byzantium gone, I knew well enough that my real interest in the civilization was this Hellenic underpinning.

Sorry. No, you're right. You're right. And I'm like, there's a Byzantinus I love, Leonore Neville, who has a great quote that's like, I want classicists, like classic students to be reading Thucydides and the princess Anacomimi, who's this 11th century, or 12th century, pardon me, historian, because she was writing in ancient Greek, you know, in the Thucydidean style thousands of years later. And it

It's like you can like read them in dialogue so well. So I was like, all right, if I can't study her, then I'll study Thucydides. So I started reading.

To do that, my major advisor was a fantastic professor. I'm going to shout out Richard Billows, amazing man. And he taught a seminar my senior year on the Golden Age of Athens. And I had no... So I guess to rewind a little bit, the first semester of my senior year, I took a classical literature seminar. And...

From the class I had taken until that point, I was kind of aware of, okay, you have...

Like, I knew that, like, the gayness was a thing in ancient Greece. Yeah. I'm like, you know, you're reading... They make it pretty obvious. Like, a lot of people have tried to get rid of that, but, like, they made it pretty obvious. Really obvious. And, like, such to the point that, like, I, you know, my dubious ass was like, oh, but, like, how gay was it really? Like, I... And then it's like, you read any, like...

classical Hellenistic later historian and like they're talking about like so-and-so's boyfriend like ratted him out like like all these little anecdotes about you know same-sex couples pretty much and so I was like okay and of course you know you have like people like Plato writing about it

And so I was like, all right, in this classical literature course, I really want to look at, because we read basically from like Sappho through imperial Roman literature. I want to say like Livy. Oh, yeah. Fun? Yeah. No, the Sappho was fun. The Sappho was really fun. The Sappho was great. But, and I know you're, yeah,

Actually, I don't know. Are you a Virgil stan? Like, not a big Virgil stan? I'm not a Rome stan. Yeah. That's kind of my stance broadly. Okay. Because they're so militarily empirical, I guess is how I'm going to phrase it. Yeah. But I do find Rome interesting. I think it's...

It's hard. And I'm sure that you've, you know, encountered this in your own way, but like it's Rome is a hard one because 50, 50, the people who are interested in study ancient Rome are either like cool nerds or fascists. And it's like, it just, to me, like Greece, I mean, Greece obviously has like similar vibes, but because so much less of their military history and like, just because they were so much less like,

like imperialist minded, I guess, or like rather their empire was a lot less destructive. I just find I end up loving Greece more, but I do love when other people come on to tell me about Rome.

Yeah. Well, unfortunately I won't be one of those people. That's fine. I do prefer Greece. The Romans weren't as gay. That's why Greece is more fun. They were, but they were different. No, but you're right. Like, so that's also partly, I also have similar misgivings with Roman also with Rome, like all the names, this is going to sound so silly, but all the names are the same. So like, and they're way more boring. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that being said, um,

I did love the Niaid. I just like think it's a fantastic, interesting piece of literature. Obviously, I love Homer, you know, like, I mean, if you were to say otherwise, I would probably have to kick you off the show. But I, you know, I'm like, why can't why can't we all be friends? Why can't we love both? But so in this class, I for like a final paper, I was like, oh, I'm going to put, you

virgil's aeneid specifically the um episode in book nine with nice the soldiers nice in your alice um in dialogue with plato symposium um which i was riffing off of a argument i want to say the class's name his last name is mckowski where he talks about how um

Virgil seems to be very clearly being like, oh, Nicene Urialis are like the Achilles and Patroclus in Plato's Symposium. And basically my paper was like, no, I mean, they are like...

they're definitely a homoerotic pair in sort of as Plato lays that out in his symposium, but not the Achilles and Patroclus. Because Plato's very, I want to say it's in the Phaedrus, his Phaedrus speech. He talks about how Achilles and Patroclus are the, not the ideal pair,

homoerotic pair but sort of like the unique homoerotic pair because you know this goes back to the classic argument of like who was the top of the bottom pretty much in their relationship of whether because Achilles was younger he was the beloved he was the aromanos and so

By dying after Patroclus, he then is kind of like the more outstanding beloved. Like that's not how the lover and beloved dynamic was supposed to work. The ideal lover and beloved dynamic that Phaedrus discusses in the symposium is that you have... And I can just get into also the... Again, apologies for rambling, but...

sort of like pederasty as an institution. Yeah. Yeah. So again, not great. Three thumbs down.

If it helps, I've done like a two or three part on the symposium where I basically came across like that. Yeah. Where I was like, it's really some of the stuff that they talk about is interesting from certain like points of view, but also broadly pederasty, terrible, gross and weird. Yeah, it's horrible. It's like really, really bad.

It's so hard the way they talk about it too. Cause it's like, yeah, especially the symposium because you're like, you're making really interesting points about same sex relationships and simultaneously. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, I think, um,

Yento, I listened to your conversation with her and she makes the great point, which I'm like, no one talks about this enough. I love Yento. Oh, absolutely. The age dynamic in the pederast relationship mirrored pretty much heterosexual relationships as well. Heterosexual marriages, I should say. Where the wife would typically be married when she was a young person.

Yeah. Girl. Yeah. Yeah. So really not great. It seems to be that the Greeks just were really interested in young people, which is gross. But that being said. It's hard to love them. And also easy. Yeah. The institution of pederasty.

seems to have originated in the Archaic Period, seems to be the consensus. We have really interesting early evidence from Crete, actually. They're both from Crete. Or no, I'm sorry, one is from Crete.

where there are these statuettes that were discovered at a sanctuary to Hermes and Aphrodite. And it's of like an older man and a younger man holding hands. And it seems to indicate sort of like an initiation ritual. And the writer Strabo, quoting an older historian, I want to say from like the 4th century BC, Ephorus, he talks about a Cretan ritual

Really weird Cretan ritual where you would have an older lover and Erastus as the Greeks would say would go to the family of a Younger man the Romanos the beloved and say hey, I want to abduct your son and Take him to my country estate and then for two months

They would hunt, feast, just like guys being bros, you know, like out in the countryside. And then at the end, Erastus would gift his Romanos a bunch of gifts, but most notably to me was a set of armor. And also the Romanos would be able to reenter society and be known as...

I believe the word is kleinos, so famous. Like he was known as famous for having gone through this sort of initiation ritual. And then on the island of Thera,

to Santorini, these inscriptions have been found, which I find interesting is that they are, I believe, some like the earliest in like the Greek alphabet, like the use of the alphabet. And they're at a sanctuary to Apollo. And it's literally saying like, so-and-so banged so-and-so, and then so-and-so banged me. And it's...

are like so and so beg so and so like and he's he also danced for Apollo like they call upon Apollo so like there's a lot of debate as to whether these inscriptions are you know graffiti because they do they kind of are similar to you know much different context but like later Roman Pompeian graffiti um

Which it's often just for the context of listeners to like, it's, it's one of those places would I imagine, I mean, I know the case for Pompeii, but given its theory, Santorini you're talking about, these are places where we have really unique examples where we can have surviving graffiti, whereas normally those things would be lost to time, but both of those places were preserved by volcanic eruptions. But I imagine that,

Like, saying all of that, that these inscriptions from Thera had to be much later because, like, the eruption happened before, like, the alphabet existed. Yes. No, this is true. So these are from the, I want to say the 8th and 7th century. Oh, cool. 7th centuries. And...

The art like again the argument rages my personal opinion is that they actually are of a sort of like sacredness because a they like call explicitly upon Apollo at the sanctuary to Apollo and also if they were seen as You know profane or blasphemous they probably would have been scratched out like the fact they still were there kind of indicates, okay, I

They seem to have been connected to this religious space. So very Apollo, sorry. Just like very Apollo. Very true. Very true. That's a great point. Didn't even think about that. But so you have these...

In, I guess, the preceding archaic period, in the archaic period preceding the classical period, you had pederasty as a sort of an initiation ritual in various parts of Greece, which then carried into, in certain city-states, into the classical period. And this is sort of, I guess...

the underpinnings to go back to Plato, to what they were trying to get at. Because now you have philosophers in the mix, and they have to kind of like, not necessarily problematize, but understand why things are the way that they are, I guess, as philosophers do. And so they, in the symposium, they...

I speak as though like the interlocutors in the dialogue are like, they're in the room with me now. I know. But B-Bomb's like, Plato? Where is Plato? I don't really want him around. Exactly. But there's a very discreet difference between like cosmic reality

I want to say like erotic love and or just, yeah, just like the more baser erotic love. And the idea was that this basic erotic love was not what pederastic relationships should be about. Like if you have, yeah,

if you have that, then it's bad. Which, I mean, I agree. And so what the symposium really does is talk about the virtues that can be gleaned. So again, harkening back on this sort of initiation process, this sort of

like this mentoring process, I guess, that could be derived from these relationships. And so Phaedrus in his speech is explicit about how

This would be really great for the military. How if you had an army of soldiers made up of pederastic relationships, then they would never lose a battle. And what I find interesting is that he's like, well, it's because the Erastes, the older lover, he would never abandon the younger to be killed. And the younger...

would want to impress his boyfriend, so he'd fight harder. And I'm like, yeah, great. Classic toxic stuff. Love that. And then the next speech, Pausanias, he goes even further and says basically these relationships can be used to cultivate, should be used to cultivate virtue. So the older mentor, the older Erastus, he should be teaching the younger Romanos basically what

how to be a virtuous man, pretty much. And the idea being that if he does this, then it would better the city as a whole because then you would have a virtuous citizen body.

So then I took those two speeches and then looked at Nicens and Euryalus, this episode in Virgil's Aeneid, and to give context for listeners, in this part of the Aeneid, Aeneas is in Italy. He's like, I'm going to go get some Italian allies,

"You guys pop a squat while I go do that." And then the Trojan army gets besieged. They're under attack. So these two soldiers, Nysus and Euryalus, are like, "All right, let's sneak out across enemy lines, go warn Aeneas. Hey, this is the situation. You've got to hurry back and help us." The way that Virgil depicts them is very much in this

pederastic like older erastes younger romanos dynamic so nisus is the erastes uh urealis is the romanos and nisus is specifically saying what really stuck out to me was he says um what is this desire that you know is making me want to perform this deed like has it it's almost as if the desire has become a god to me um and the word that he uses specifically is uh cupido

And when you look at Plato's speeches in the symposium, it talks specifically about how Eros, again, desire, will be the one, the god that inspires the soldiers to go for virtue, pretty much. And this then...

gets the two soldiers they go to Aeneas' son Ascanius and basically get permission to go on this mission they get caught because Euryalus sees a nice shiny helmet and then they're killed Euryalus here's what's like really important to me at least in my nerdy brain is Euryalus dies first so the beloved dies first and

is unable to defend him, but because he's unable to defend him, he then is killed. And this to me is like, okay, this is how you have them being the ideal relationship because with Achilles and Patroclus, Achilles in Plato's Symposium is the Aromanos and Patroclus is the Erastus. So it's the reverse. Patroclus dies first and then...

And then Achilles dies for him afterwards. According to Plato, this is what the Arasae should be doing. If the Romanos either lives or dies, doesn't make a difference, the Arasae should be dying for him. The Romanos shouldn't have to die for him. And...

So that's why I was like, okay, nice new realist. They are specifically a platonic romantic couple. Platonic with a capital P. Yeah. But also like, sorry, etymologically, I've been thinking about, because sometimes you just have a brain that thinks about etymology on a regular basis. And I think about platonic so often because it's like, we say platonic, but then also you go back to Plato and it's like, do you mean platonic? Because...

But just to go to everything you just said, because it's so interesting. And I've always found this... Well, I mean, the symposium is both so interesting and so messy. Like, it's wild. I mean, it's an incredible piece because it really does give you so much information, I think, about these types of relationships in the ancient world. And then obviously also is so problematic. But one of the things that interests me is how...

you know, um, Plato through that conversation is essentially trying to like retcon Achilles and Patroclus, right? Like, because what he's trying to do is write an Erastus Romanos relationship into a Homeric text, uh, work and a story which preceded, we assume preceded Erastus Romanos relationships. And that's why he can't quite make it work because it,

existed outside of that mentality. And I, but I, and I, it's just such an interesting thing because yeah, you're like everything, like,

Fitz and then you have Virgil coming in later who's writing with all of this in mind, with all of this in his background. I mean, that's just the fun of ancient text broadly, right? It's like all of the stuff that they did and did not know and looking at why some people write things differently with all of this information. And the Aeneid, like for all that I don't really care about the Aeneid as like a piece of Roman literature, I do care about the Aeneid as like a late,

stage epic, I guess is how I would phrase it. Like I care about it as an epic poem written in full realization of everything that came before it, because I think that it is quite unique in that way. And this is such a great example of that because like,

he clearly could write. He basically, like, did... He wrote what Plato wanted Achilles and Patroclus to be. Yeah. No, I'm... I just have to say that's also why I love the Aeneid. Like, it's because... Yeah. To me, it's like this apogee of...

you know, classical literature up until that point. Yeah. You know, because again, like you said, like he had all this amazing literature before him to work with. And he wrote it on purpose, which I think a lot of people, it's hard to differentiate that from Homer because we conceptualize Homer as like a person who wrote it. And that is generally incorrect. Yeah. And, and so like, if you really think about like, no, the Aeneid was written, whereas, you know, the, the Homeric epics, we,

we could say were composed, right? Like they weren't, nobody sat down and was like, I'm going to write this out in this like, you know, like poetic verse. Like no one sat down and was like, I'm going to do this. Whereas Virgil then did. And so what, like, what does that impact? You know, how he chose to tell his story. It's just so interesting compared to the alternative. No, absolutely. And what I find interesting about Homer in that, um,

Yeah, again, my history advisor was of the mind that, and I know that this is like a scholarly camp, but I'm like, sure, why not? Because Homer was sort of like a composite of traditions and whatnot, you would have had, and it would have been composed during this Iron Age period where you had in places like Crete and Thera,

you know, pederastic relationships as these initiation rituals, you would have some...

You would have like bones to throw to them pretty much. Yeah. In the Homeric epics. While also for communities who didn't like that, who didn't have those relationships and were like, we do not support. You know, you couldn't go to the rhapsode and be like, hey, what's going on here? You'd be like, I didn't say that they were, you know, lover and beloved. Like, that's not it. You're reading into it. Yep.

um which i think i mean to me that that makes the homeric um epics like even that much more rich um because it's just you know they're up there's they're a fullness of like greekness all over the greek world pretty much yeah well it's also interesting to think about them as like composites over such a long period of time yeah too right where like

I don't think this really applies to Achilles and Patroclus because it's like so heavily in it like is the story. But for so many other things, like you can imagine that these moments or references, similes, asides, whatever, like you can imagine them being put in.

At some point when I, you know, a city state was particularly relevant or when like a certain thing might be more like people might connect more to these moments or these stories like these myths, like because there's so many similes and there's so many like myths.

within the myth. And it's so interesting to imagine like where those were coming from, whether they were like inserted later. And if so, why? Like I just, yeah, I love that, that level of speculation. Yeah, no, it's awesome. Um, I love it, but yeah,

Moving beyond Homer. So that was, or like moving back to Virgil, I should say. So I wrote that paper. It's now, if anyone wants to read an article form of it, it's in Ancient World Magazine where I get into like the nitty gritty. I can link to it. Amazing. Yes. Yes.

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this paper and all this symposium, gayness, military stuff in mind than going into my last semester college where I took a seminar on specifically fifth century Athens, so classical Athens. While I was in the course, we ought to do research and presentations on specific topics.

I think on like the judicial system and also on the military. And while I was doing it on the military, I knew in the back of my head about the Sacred Band of Thieves, which... I've been waiting. I've been waiting. I know.

I know. I don't, cause I know you've had people who talk about the, no, I haven't, but I need to, I like I've had themes, but I've been like aching for a specific, I need to have somebody to come on and talk about the sacred band specifically, but feel free. I've not, I mean, God ever, however much you want. Cause it's definitely been like a, on my list. So I guess like what, just as like a prelude before I talk, cause I, I use the sacred band of thieves a lot in my fiction writing. Um,

Not even more. But so like, I guess it's like a prelude. So I knew, honestly, probably from like Tumblr.com. Respect. There was like the Sacred Band of Thieves, which is an army made up of 150 same-sex couples, you know, of an Erasus and a Romanos, and that they were badasses pretty much. They won everything.

Not every battle, but pretty much almost every battle that we have with them recorded. Yeah, like Alex the OK, as my producer Michaela would require me to call him. He like...

he had to really like work to defeat them. And I just love that they were like what made them famous for being like what made them, everyone knew that what made them so good was that they were all in these romantic relationships. Exactly. And like it has, so we're going to put thebes or not, not thebes, Athens to the side. Let's talk about thebes. Happily. Yeah.

So in the 4th century... So the Sacra Banthebes came about in the 4th century. I want to say in 379. It was formed in 378 BC. After the Peloponnesian War, Athens loses. Sparta's then... They're the big dogs in Greece. And they...

set up in 382 a military regime um in thebes um they're basically let in by um oligarchic supporters in thebes um spartans involved in oligarch

It's not relatable at all today. Not at all. But that... So all the democratic faction leaders, they actually fled to Athens, which is interesting because thieves in Athens have, you know, a, let's say, less than harmonious history with one another. Very long-standing beef. Yes. Very long-standing beef. Exactly. And so...

Then in 379 the Democratic partisan Democratic partisans of the IBS came they snuck back into the city and during the aphrodisiac festival in honor of Aphrodite They dressed up as a woman as prostitutes essentially and

while the Spartan commander at the time in charge of the city was feasting. It's a festival for Aphrodite. He was getting drunk and he was having sex. Let's be perfectly honest. Exactly. So he's like, bring the ladies in. The ladies come in. They rip off their clothes. They got knives and they're not ladies. And they're able to retake the city. And

The Democratic faction was led by these awesome guys, Pelopidas and Epaminondas. And we know the most about the Sacred Band from Plutarch's life of Pelopidas. Very sadly, Plutarch's life of Epaminondas has been lost. I'm like, you know, it's been over 2,000 years and I'm still not over it. It's okay. Ovid wrote a Medea and I'll never get over that being lost. Oh my gosh. We have...

There's too much loss, too much loss. Truly. Honestly. Everything women ever wrote other than the stuff Sappho got survived, that survived randomly. Truly, truly. Hey, shout out to those Egyptian garbage pits. Damn right. They give us everything. They give us everything. Women were trash and I'll take it. So they kick the Spartans out.

They know, Pelopidas and Epiphamondas know, okay, they're not going to be happy about this. They're going to come back and try to whip our ass. And another Theban, Gorgidas, I can't remember off the top of my head if it's explicitly linked to being his idea, but he is the one that's credited to creating the Sacred Band. And basically he's like, okay, if we have an army of people,

who are boyfriends, then they'll be unstoppable. Again, going off of ideas that are discussed in Plato's Symposium, which

Was being composed. Basically that same-sex relationships make you more virtuous, which I think is like just to spell it out. Yeah. Thank you. That's what Plato said. Exactly. And I mean, it was used to also like bring women down a peg, but still it's interesting and valuable. No, literally. That was another thing. I remember saying to a friend once, like who asked me like, oh, why was Angel Grace so gay? I'm like, honestly, like,

When you're that misogynistic, it just goes... They misogynize themselves into being gay. Like, I have no other way of describing it. Yeah, no. Like, really sad, but, like, really upsetting. But also really gay, you know? But also really gay at the end of the day. Yeah, and that's nice. Now. But Thebes in particular, they had a very unique relationship with...

like homosexuality and that it didn't, it doesn't seem to be the way that it was, let's just go with Athens, but also with Sparta, where you had like, with Athens in particular, it was usually between men who were in their 20s who were soldiers and then like guys in their teens.

And then when the Romanos, the younger guy, turned 20, entered his 20s, then the relationship would end and he would turn into an Erastus. 20 is the line. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. Interesting. Cool. Yeah. I'm like, the idea, sorry, as a woman nearing her late 30s, the idea of a 20-year-old being an adult, let alone on the older side.

Yeah. I mean, all right. No, it's crazy. And what's interesting is that the argument for Athenian men, like the Erasus being in their 20s, is because then when they turned 30, when they entered their 30s, that's then when they would be getting their child brides, pretty much. Oh, goody. Yeah. So the argument's like, oh, like these guys, let's say they want a romantic relationship. Well, they can't have a romantic relationship with a girl, right?

So that's what they'll do with other guys. I'm like, okay, cool, whatever you say. I just have to say this because there's a line that's been running through my head. I mean, a lot lately, generally. Well, not lately, but mostly in this conversation. I'm talking around in circles. I've been re-watching Parks and Recreation. And there is just this incredible line, and it's so...

funny and true and relevant where there's basically what's meant to be a bigoted Christian woman is talking about something and somebody says, what about the Romans? And she just says, perverts. And then they say the Greeks and she says, gay perverts. And that's a very poor rendition. The clip is generally hilarious, but it's just so true. Oh yeah. Just...

Really, really gross stuff at the end of the day. Yeah. That's why, hey, this is why though I love Thebes because they were a little less gross. They didn't, it doesn't seem that they had this sort of like, oh, the young guy's got to be a teenager. Like, no. They would have, um,

Honestly, it seems to be lifelong monotonous relationships. And there doesn't also seem to have been an emphasis on this age differential. It very much... It could have been...

like a year maybe two years but like a regular relationship today like that's fine yeah exactly um but it wasn't this like strict you know you turn 20 you gotta be an erastes now um well and that's what makes it it's funny that it's the athenians being grosser because like of course it would be the athenians well wait till i talk about the spartans oh you mean they're worse oh my god or different

But it's so interesting because, yeah, like that's what that line, those like strict lines

quote-unquote rules, that's what makes it so gross and predatory. I mean, obviously also like the general age issues, but like, you know, as you mentioned that Yentl said in a past episode, like it's not that the girls that they were then marrying later, like were older. So it wasn't that necessarily that the boys were like younger than the girls in these situations. But the fact that there are these like strict rules around it,

Really make it so that it's just like, it's like a weird cultural practice versus an actual like, like romantic relationship, which it sounds like the Thebans were like, no, no, like we're just like life partners, not some weird, like it's supposed to be mentorship, but also there's sex. Like, yeah, that's so interesting. Exactly. Yeah. No, I agree. And the, the,

Xenophon, the Athenian Spartan, I don't know what he would prefer me to call him, probably Spartan, but like writer at the time. So he's the main source or main contemporary source that we have for this period of history, the fourth century. And he is notably silent on the sacred band of Thebes. He says that

Thebes had a select men. So like they had some special fighters. And he says in his symposium that the Thebans would put lovers next to their beloveds in battle because that was the only way to get them to fight. Because if...

like they would be too if they didn't have someone next to that like their boyfriend next to them pretty much they would just run away um which is like sure so just anti-themen propaganda oh a hundred percent like from an athenian or a spartan yeah i would have thought uh but he wrote in um

I want to say it's, yeah, in his Lacanian constitution about the Spartans, he says how in Thebes, when he's comparing Spartan pederasty versus Theban pederasty, and is like, well, in Thebes, the men live with each other sus ogentes, so also pederasty.

totally pronounced that wrong, but basically yoked together is the translation, which is actually a word that is used to describe heterosexual marriages. I was going to say, yeah, it sounds like it would be the same. Yeah. So it really does, like the picture that emerges, and he's saying it obviously as a slight, so like

You know, when like my critical historian hats like, well, he could be like being dramatic, you know? But at the same time,

you know, we can also maybe take it a face value. Like, well, yeah. And we, when we have the, the material evidence for the sacred band and then also things like that, like it makes sense that, yeah, like sure. He could be meaning it as like a slight, but it also lines up with archeological evidence. Right? No, it's true. And, um,

Whereas his... So that's the pederasty or same-sex relationships, I think would be a better way of just describing them. Whereas Spartan was really gross. And the...

I want to keep making jokes about how, like, ha ha, oh my god, you believe the Spartans are gross? But then I'm like, it's old, because obviously they're just fucking terrible. So bad. Now more than ever, the relevancy of their terribleness is just hard to take. Yeah, no, 100%. And with Xenophon, it's like the Olympic gold medal Simone Biles level gymnastics routine, mental gymnastics routine that he does.

To talk about how, like, yeah, Spartans had same-sex relationships, but they weren't sexual at all. Like, they weren't doing anything. Basically, when a Spartan youth turned 12, the state would then give him what they called an inspirer. Yeah.

He was supposed to inspire the younger Spartan, you know, into being a better soldier, virtuous man, et cetera. And again, Xenophon's like, this was totally educational, you guys. Like there was nothing else going on. Meanwhile, you know, everyone else is like, no, like this is,

like Spartans in particular were seen to be extremely into homosexual relations, like same sex relationships and such that, um, the, like a byphrase for anal sex was like Laconia and ass. So it's like, you know, instead of fun, you can do all, all the like, you know,

mental gymnastics you want but at the end of the day like we can see through this um we also just from the mythological side i'm trying to think of if there's more but like apollo and hyacinth is explicitly like hyacinthus is spartan yeah he's meant to be like yeah yeah and i i feel like there might be more yeah anyway it's interesting that's funny no and the um the um sanctuary athera that i mentioned earlier was um spartan

Oh, so it's like, okay. Yeah. Apollo loved it. You guys love it. Like, let's be honest. Yeah. But so the Thebans, they had a more, you know, not to be anachronistic, but they had a more modern sort of understanding of male homosexuality and treatment of it. And, and,

They then formed this army, were able to beat a Spartan force at the Battle of Tegira shortly after they retook Thebes. And then in 371 BC, Sparta marched back into Boeotia.

to basically reassert their dominance in the region. Thebes at the time had formed the Boeotian League, which was just like an alliance of cities in the region. And Sparta was like, oh, we don't like that. Like, what are you doing? And so they marched back into Boeotia and clashed with Thebes at this very famous battle, Lutra.

Which is actually the subject of a short story that I wrote coming out next month. And this was a really significant battle because it broke essentially the Spartan mirage that had prevailed up until that point. The Spartans were able to win so many battles up until that point because literally people were so scared that they just wouldn't even fight. And Epaminondas came up with

this unique stratagem which was normally how ancient army's fault was you put your best soldiers on your right flank against the opposite army's uh left flank which is where their weakest soldiers were so i feel like that would be very quickly circumvented as soon as the others realized they could just swap

Yeah, well, that's what... It took hundreds of years, but Epaminon just came up with that. Okay, guys. He was like, no, what we're going to do is put our best soldiers on our left flank and put best against best. And so...

Sorry, not to be screaming duh at the ancient people, but okay. No, I don't disagree. But this is also where the phrase cutting off the snake's head comes from. Because Pamanatus apparently took a snake, took its head off, cut its head off, and was like, this is what we got to do to the Spartan army, you guys. We got to put the sacred band up against the Hippaeus, the Spartan royal guard, and their soldiers, the other Spartiates.

And this works. Basically, the Thebans charge right at the Spartan, best Spartan line, killed the Spartan king, Cleobardus, right away. And then it just turns into an absolute rout. So many Spartans die, and it breaks the Spartan mirage. It is such a devastating battle, or defeat, I should say, that...

Thebes is now seen as like they're the big dogs pretty much in Greece. And they're able to then march into the Peloponnese, like actually into Spartan territory and

rebuild, I should say. So they free a bunch of helots and are able to rebuild the city of Mazzini. And that's seen as like another death blow because all these helots are, you know, they have a city now, essentially. Sorry, I got to stop you here because really? So do we have evidence they like freed

So just to the listeners who need the reminder that Spartan helots were like, they're very, very, I mean, a very Spartan slave class. Yes. That were like unique to Sparta in their terrible situation. But also a lot of them were originally from Missenia. Yeah.

The Thebans just, like, let them have it again? Yeah, Epaminatus rebuilt the city because he knew that the only reason why the Helots were able to... Not the only reason, but, like, a big reason why they were able to stay in bondage was because they didn't have a city to, you know, build around, localize around. Yeah, they didn't... They didn't have a home. Yeah, they... Sorry, I need to...

Phrase a point here that's not at all related to current events. Not even a little bit, but it's, it's almost like a strategy for dehumanization and breaking down the

the wills of a particular group of people would be to strip them of their ancestral homeland and, uh, basically revoke their rights to any kind of, uh, citizenship or, uh, you know, ability to, uh, move or regain, uh, any kind of official, uh, country hood that they might've had originally. It's almost like that's a good, that's what empires do to break people. Yeah, precisely. Uh,

And that Epaminondas understood this well and was like, all right, I'm going to then rebuild the city. And I have to be honest, I can't remember off the top of my head. From what I remember, it's that a lot of helots after Lutro just ran away. Like when they learned that the city was being rebuilt, they were like, all right, we're just going to get out if we can. And...

That was, again, another death blow to Spartan supremacy was this loss of... Now I need to figure out how I want to phrase this, but like, slaver legitimacy? I don't know how you want to phrase it, but with Messini now as a city, for the helots, they couldn't, as you said, psychologically enslave them as well. Yeah, well...

Every time I have a conversation these days, it inevitably descends into not at all relevant topics. And it's not because I bring it there ever, never. But that's really so, that's so interesting. And I think maybe...

really, really powerful proof that freedom, real, actual freedom to people and return to their... I mean, or rather, like, it's almost like, and push back against me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like Sparta had set up what we might call an apartheid situation where some people had more rights than others because the Spartans, of course, had full citizenship rights. But if you weren't

Spartan. You weren't considered a full citizen and that is designed to break people's will. But when they are given agency and freedom and access to community, the imperial boot isn't so strong. It kind of just turns into a weak, flimsy sandal. And that was...

Thebes, again, that's why I love Epaminondas so much. He's one of my favorite historical figures. I've always loved Thebes, I have to say, and I also didn't know any of this. So you've just given me so many more reasons to love Thebes. Oh, yeah, they're awesome. And for any listeners who want to learn more, James Romm recently wrote a book called The Sacred Band about this period in history that is...

Absolutely unreal. I wish it had come out when I was doing research for some other writing, but I'm just really happy that we have it now. It really covers Epaminondas and just this period super duper well. And unfortunately for Thebes, they had Epaminondas, they had Pelopidas, but once they both died, they didn't really have any...

replacements like of the same caliber um and so you then had like kind of like a multipolar system in Greece um in terms of like state powers really up until uh the Battle of Carinnea in the 330s which is when Philip of Macedon came in and was like all right I'm just gonna

conquer greece now um oh right his dad did alex the okay didn't even go down yes i yeah michaela would have been screaming at me i'm glad you corrected no no well no alexander was there so like this okay it's very um here i'm like this is like the great irony of like gay queer history is that alexander the great you know infamous bisexual warlord um of antiquity um

what led the cavalry that again, this is, you know, everything's scholarly is contentious. Um,

I personally subscribe to the theory that the Theban sacred band, so during the Battle of Carinnaia, Thebes was fighting with Athens. Athens broke apart. Like they went, I don't want to say detached, but basically like there was an opening in their flanks for the Macedonian cavalry to basically come in and attack the Theban sacred band. And the cavalry was led by Alexander.

And they killed every member of the Sacred Band to a man. And the reason why I believe that this is how the battle went down is because

We have the archaeological remains of the Thief and Sacred Band at this battle. And we can tell from their skulls that they were... Some of these soldiers were struck by blows from above. So it would have made sense for like, okay, like a horseman's coming down, throwing down his sword and, you know, killing them. And...

So Alexander is the one that ultimately destroys them. But there's a quote in Plutarch that I still find very memorable, which is that Philip, when he looks at the destruction, all these dead couples, goes, let any man who thinks what they did shameful not think that. Essentially, I'm paraphrasing now. Which is to say that...

There, again, this sort of more modern conception of even homosexuality was seen as by contemporaries not, you know, normal or preferred, which, you know, I disagree with those opponents. And it seems that Philip is on my side. No, it is so interesting, though, to like,

to look back at how those things are viewed. I don't know. It's so interesting the way a lot of bigots try to erase gay history and say that it didn't exist at all. But what's more interesting is to look at the complexities. Obviously, there hasn't really been a period where it was ever like, this is great, you should get married, and everyone should live happily ever after. That sucks. But we do have...

such periods of like or such evidence for like the real respect and value that people have given to same-sex relationships like over since the beginning of time and I think it's so interesting to like hold on to those ideas and revisit them and just I don't know just I mean I love all of the evidence because I like to shove it down people's throats but it's it's fucking interesting and like

Yeah, I don't know. Any kind of attempt to erase that stuff from history is so nonsensical for lots of reasons. I mean, it's obviously horrifying at its absolute core, but it's also like, it's just dumb. And I think that's where I'll just never agree with those people because it's stupid. This stuff is just fucking fascinating. Why are you so insecure that you need to pretend it doesn't exist instead of just being like, this is interesting and different. Yeah. No, 100%. And like,

Again, it's interesting to me how a lot of what these... I'm thinking specifically about far-right appropriations of ancient culture. Again, going back to those horrible Spartans, they're put on such a pedestal by these hate groups, and it's like they...

were you know banging each other in the barracks like it's it's um and they had um a lot of views on things that you know don't really fit you know the current appropriations um and also i mean again i always get hung up hung up on sparta because like

They really do suck. I view that in a level, on a military level, like I'm thinking. They don't

Like it was a mirage. Like, and I know you did like a series on Sparta. So like, yeah. And the mirage specifically, because that's what's so interesting. Yeah, exactly. Like they, like when you pull that back, they were just like, you know, another city state. They were good at propaganda. Exactly. There are modern parallels. Yes.

Exactly. And like oligarchs running propaganda? Who would have thought? Who would have thought? But so that's why when I was so drawn to Thebes because they like are the ones who single-handedly broke this barrage during this period of history. And like

Jews in an army of gay guys. Or queer guys. I don't know what they liked. Yeah, fair. But it's very fascinating to me in all that respect.

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ethical factories, Quince delivers premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. Discover everyday luxury without the markup at Quince. Go to quince.com slash styleupgrade for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash styleupgrade. What I was fascinated by and really wanted to explore was sort of how it tied into masculinity, which again is something that these groups today are so hung up upon. And

In the Athenian context basically what I wanted to explore was so I knew about the sacred band Why didn't Athens ever form a sacred band or something like that? Because we have so much evidence From that city-state that you know, they were really into same-sex relationships and

Basically, what I ended up doing kind of like in-depth research on was tying these pederast relationships, you know, as discussed in like the symposium and elsewhere to the Athenian Ephibaea, which was a military training system that

I, again, this is another like area of scholarly dispute, but, um, we don't know when it really began. Um, but it seems to be the late fourth century. We have, we know about it from, um, Aristotle's writing pretty much. Um, and, but there were Athens is had already kind of fallen. Exactly. Yeah. Um, but you had, um, certain, what I like to call like precursors, um,

to basically where like men of the same age range, so 18 to 20, was when Athenians would become, Athenian young men would become Ephibs. And basically what an Ephib was is a, like an unarmed hoplite or a light armed hoplite. That's, yeah, that's a better way of phrasing it. Yeah.

they would you sorry this is how much my show never talks about the military no worries i know the word hoplite very well but could i fully define it as compared to anyone else in the military no could you give us a little just like an overview hoplite what does that mean so of course um the hoplite was the um basically like when you think of a stereotypical greek soldier like

with the big horse crest helmet, had a big shield, the apis, and a big old spear and bronze armor. They would fight in phalanxes, so

Now I'm like, how do I describe a phalanx? But basically like the big blocks of soldiers. Yeah, they would lock their shields together in certain or rather like arrange them in certain ways to provide like a larger shield. Exactly. Yeah. You get military historian over here for sure. No, I mean, hey, that's better than how I could describe it. I do know a phalanx.

They were the, basically they were the aristocratic land infantry. And specifically aristocratic because you had to supply your own armor. So you could only like, you know, get this armor if you were wealthy, pretty much. You could afford it. And then of course the wealthiest would be cavalry because they could afford horses. And the hoplite was then like,

Even though it was for, even though really only aristocrats could be hoplites, it seems to be that most people, most citizens who were in the Athenian military were rowers in the navy. They did have a good navy. They had a really good navy. And all you needed to do to become a rower was, I think, buy the pad that you would sit on in the ship.

This is crazy the amount that they expected people to bring to their military positions. Yeah, I know. No, I agree. So the Hoplites were these heavily armed soldiers. And the Afib was basically the opposite of this. So he wouldn't have armor. He would be...

just like a light-armed soldier. And what was interesting, there's a French scholar, Vidal Naquet, he wrote really like the fee book, I think, about this, called The Black Hunter. And it is about how the Efebea, the system of military training, was reflective of kind of like

the transition for Athenian males from young men to full citizen hoplite adults. And that being said, even people in the Navy would go through the FBA, which I found interesting. But so it was seen as like a training system for both the military and for being a citizen. And

What they would do, what that means is that the young men, so the ephibs, would have to go from a state of, I believe what he calls uncooked, to cooked. So in order to become a full hoplite, you have to first become the opposite.

And what this meant is that, okay, like the hoplite lives in Athens and he's heavily armored. The ephebe lives his first year. He's in a fort or a couple of forts on the Piraeus. And then in his second year, he's on the fringes of Attica in these other forts. So he's at the fringes, like the physical fringes of Athenian society. And then...

In addition, during the Askaforia Festival, which I believe was a festival for Demeter, Ephibs would dress up as a woman. So again, go into this idea of, you know, in order to become a man, first you kind of have to be a woman. And basically what I found with this, you know, formal military institution was like, oh, this is kind of how they treated pederast relationships as well. And what I found

argued in my paper was essentially that the pederast relationship because it was usually like I don't know when let's say a guy was in his mid-teens so right before the ephedra started if you're going off of Plato he should be learning from his Erastes basically the same virtues that the he will then learn in the ephedra so

It's kind of like a primer for the more formal civic military training he gets later on. And it'll be through this non-institutional romantic relationship. That being said, the way that Athenian same-sex relationships worked were so wackadoodle-do. I have a quote written down that I just need to say because I'm like, this perfectly encapsulates

How masculinity was. Oh God, I'm excited and horrified. Yeah. During this period, it's from the historian John Winkler. In Athens, male life is warfare. Masculinity is a duty and hard-won achievement. And the temptation to desert one's side is very great.

So these young men had like, they were expected to be in these same sex relationships, but at the same time, you couldn't like enjoy it at all. Like you couldn't, and that's reflected in a, the courtship process. So usually what would happen is like the lover who, again, um, to build out the dynamics, it's like the Erasus would usually be like a freshly minted soldier, fresh minted,

off of their military training, like in their early mid twenties, whatever. And they would then try to court the Romanos by giving them, I don't know, like hairs, um, like, um, singing them songs, like kind of crazy, you know, romantic gestures, let's say. I love that. Can I just, this is also coming from my knowledge of like, you know, Victorian Edwardian literature and everything, but like the,

of time that humans determined that like giving somebody else some of your hair was like a romantic gesture like that went on oh I'm sorry I meant like rabbits you meant oh my literal rabbits okay well then the then the fucking in the Victorian period they were like cutting off actual hair and being like here's a lock

of my hair I love you but that is so much funnier that it's a rabbit all right well then just broadly different different forms of uh the same homonym they're giving off hairs exactly oh my god okay sorry that's even that's funnier too I got you a rabbit yeah no like um and like you can see that in um like the evidence on behalf of this is from like base paintings um nice okay

Okay, yeah, now I can picture a... Yeah. A little rabbit. And the idea was that the Romanos would be like, no, no, no, like, basically playing hard to get until he deems the Erastes like, oh, he's someone who's going to teach me how to be a good man, pretty much. Right. And then...

So this is important because later on in life, when the young Athenian is now an adult, he is like a full citizen, charges could be brought against them for how they behaved as teenagers that would then invalidate their laws, essentially. So we have a case called Against Tamarcos, which is basically arguing that this guy, Tamarcos, when he was a teenager, was prostituting himself and

was basically behaving you know, unmanly and The threat of this was even though this was happening while he was a teenager while he was like expected to be in these same-sex relationships by You know not playing it cool. I guess for lack of a better word He could then be charged

um and his current like whatever laws he you know brought forward and passed as an adult would then be invalidated because of how he was potentially perceived as behaving when he was a teenager and when he was in the eromenos position exactly gross so it's like on top of it you have the society like pressuring these men these young guys to be in these relationships but at the same time it was like no no no like you can't

like you like it at all. Yeah. Which, you know, I'm sure many of them did not. Yeah. And then so like they would have to behave a very specific way. And then when they, so that when they became men, they could not then be faulted years later as being like, you enjoy being a Romanist too much.

See, okay. Nightmare, nightmare. Honestly, I remember reading about this and being like, this is horrible. And I told him, I remember talking to my brother about it when I was doing this research. He was like, Harrison, this just sounds like really aggressive hazing. And I'm like,

You're not wrong. Yeah. But I, I think that that's like, I think that looking at this is so important because it's such a great reminder that the idea of toxic masculinity is just as impactful on men as it is on women. Like this is toxic masculinity. This is,

the belief that like, if you are not a certain way that you're like, quote unquote, not a man and it is terrible for everyone involved. And so like, yeah, this desire some people have to fight against the idea that, that toxic masculinity exists. Like it's hurting men just as much really is like, that's so damaging and terrible. No, a hundred percent. And that amazing segue is what a lot of my historical fiction writing is about. Yeah.

That's not my poetry. So I write short and also longer prose, usually historical fiction, a little bit of fantasy, but set in antiquity or Middle Ages. And a lot of my stories, namely this one that's actually coming out next month, focuses on how really...

ancient masculinity was so aggressively toxic and like we like if you didn't buy it to that system and like you were a dude and

And even if you did buy in, like it still sucked to go through it. Yeah. But if you didn't buy in, then you were especially like ostracized. Yeah. And it's, you know, horrible, horrible. Yeah. Well, okay. And I've been thinking about this myth since you started, since we started talking about this. And-

kind of waiting for the right time to bring it up and this is it because I think that like yes everything you've just said yes and then I also think that there's there's this level of propaganda put in place on the ancient men and and to basically like emphasize what you've just gone through which is that like you're not allowed to like it you're but also you have to go through it and it's good for you but you're not allowed to like it and to me that is

Like it is basically written into their mythos through the story of Zeus and Ganymede, right? Like totally. Yeah. Like that, that story is about an older man and a younger man and Zeus abducts him. It's meant to be bad and traumatic. And then this kid is quote unquote serving Zeus and,

For, like, I mean, mythologically, for eternity, like, given this kind of, like, it's not obviously spelled out that he's given this eternal youth, but, like, essentially that's what happens. Is he's, like, this permanent erominos, and yet, but this is meant to be, like, a nice story. Like, his dad was given some fancy horses in compensation, like...

It's horrifying. And it's written into the mythos as this kind of like origin story that's meant to be nice and good and not terrible, even though on its face it's terrible. But I mean, that's most of Greek mythology, let's be honest.

yeah and like spun is romantic like yeah exactly like yes but it's like the way they use words like beloved in that way right like it yeah it's it's propaganda it's it reminds me of how um they use the word rape and then to mean abduction and obviously sexual assault but i've had the number of people i've had criticize my work on the show by being like rape just meant kidnap like it

As if it does, because I would be like, yeah, that's that's rape, rape, like, and they will rape just meant kidnap. And I'm just want to scream into the void. Like, why do you think that is? Yeah, it's not because there wasn't rape. It's because they weren't acknowledging it as a bad thing. They just weren't because it was the the crime was taking someone's property. That property was human. Like, yeah.

That's just how, that's, this is just how language and words evolve and things. So I don't know. It's yeah. I don't even know how it got on there. Cause I just, we're rambling about toxic masculinity, but this is, it's, it's so dark and so interesting. It is. It's so that's the thing is like, I find it's fascinating because again, we live obviously now in a patriarchal world, like with, with, um,

just like severe toxic masculine, like now more than ever, just like really pervading. And I was talking to my friend the other day about how I'm like looking at like people my age, younger, and I'm like, like guys, I'm like, I just want to like grab them by the shoulders and be like, how can I get you to stop being, you know, interested in fascism? For lack of a better word.

like how can I knock this out of you like laugh because otherwise you want to cry it's true it's like yeah like it's so it's interesting because like I've like um mostly because like I again you know I love ancient history I love um military history so you know the algorithm on all these apps it's trying to hook me in it and like I can see just how um

easy it is for young men to just like totally be swept up in this disgusting system and I'm just like oh like gosh what what is it what will it take till I catch you to realize like no this isn't good stuff um yeah and like not only is it not good for like

Other people and everyone, but it's also not good for you. Yeah. And. Well, think of like the, all of the red pill bullshit of like that realm or like the, you know, incel nonsense, the what's his name? People, the what's Andrew, whatever. Yeah. Like all of that stuff. It's harmful to the men just as much, but like,

And it's just like so toxic and terrible. And, but yeah, you can see how people fall into these mentalities, especially with, I mean, and that's now it's still connected to ancient Rome because of the office of it all. They, they literally use his work as like a, you know, the like pickup manual, but like,

But the military side of it, like it's so easy to fall into it because also like Roman and Spartan propaganda worked. It worked. And like it just like American propaganda works now. Right. Like especially with. Yeah. With. Oh, my God. The algorithms like I can't even imagine. My algorithm is so feminist that I don't think I'd ever get near that stuff. But like. I'm jealous. Yeah. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah.

But also it's because I never look into the military. And I imagine as soon as I would start, you know, like you're getting that. No, I'm like, I just want to see like, I don't know, like how, um, it's like to me, I'm thinking about like Demetrius, the procedure, who was a,

Hellenistic ruler and he's called the besieger because he built these wacky siege engines, like just like giant towers, crazy stuff. And I'm like, I just want to know about that. Like, I just want to feel like... Weird, right? Yeah. Like, I don't need like this guy, like, you know,

um doing bicep curls while like screaming like um spartan like you know misattributed spartan quotes exactly like they probably don't know how to spell it in greek oh no there's definitely like a sigma on there they love the sigmas they love a sigma um but so i guess what um

It's disappointing to me just to see like, you know looking at the ancient material, you know how You know cultures like Sparta and Athens were able to you know propagandize this sort of like not only propagandize but also institutionalize these toxic systems but then see how it like, you know, it's been a couple of thousand couple millennia and like I

We're still doing it. And that's why I'm like, let's look at Thebes. Yeah. They're not perfect, but, you know. Yeah. There are other...

ancient, pre-modern societies and just like lenses to use to look at. If you want to admire it, you know, I'm not one to be like, we should look at the past as a template. But like, you know, if you want to think that

That doesn't mean that I think that you shouldn't look at the past and be like, whoa, that's cool. Yeah. That's awesome. You know? Yeah. Well, that's what's the... But that's what's the fun of being on this side of history is, like, that ability, which, again, like, seems really obvious but isn't. But that ability to be like, I love this thing. I love learning about it. I love, you know, like...

just really diving into the depths of it. And simultaneously I can recognize where it's problematic and all of the reasons why it shouldn't be emulated. Like there, we, we can and should be interested in and love these things without, without,

thinking that they need to be valorized like it's wild that that's like a thing to be said but i'm like i love ancient greek and also or ancient greece and it was also terrible like both of those things can be true no totally like yeah it is weird today how we have and it almost feels like almost like a um

Oh my God, what's the word? I'm thinking about like the 18th century, like, or like Victorian, you know, like, you know, like, oh, you study something because it's like, it has this, um, quality of like worth that's, you know, um,

That prizes it above other things. Superior. Superiority. Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. I know the feeling. Which is so just, you know, it's not necessary. It is very Victorian though. You're right. It's very Victorian. Yeah.

to, yeah, to be looking back. But also it's like, I mean, the Victorians did it and we're doing it now, but it's looking back on those people through the lens of today and it's, and not recognizing that you're doing that. Like I'm doing that in my show. Absolutely. But I am fully aware that I am looking at it through that lens. Whereas so many of these people who see it,

from the other side or looking at it through the lens of like, say Christianity or rather not even necessarily Christianity as a religion, but I say it as like a cultural, like North American slash Western cultural identity. Yeah. Like you're looking at it through that, but it, you can't like it, that doesn't, it doesn't work that way. You know? No, a hundred percent. Like even like I'm working on, um, an article right now about, um,

Not to pivot back to Byzantium. And I apologize in advance that I tend to do this, but... I have ADHD. I respect this. I appreciate it. But about a Byzantine folk hero, D. G. Andesicretes, who...

I've always found fascinating. He, and the article will look at how pretty much he embodies certain aspects of pagan, um, masculine heroes. So like I specifically look at his parallels with Heracles. Um, and basically the conclusion that I like kind of came to while like reading into everything was, um, it's a no decent amount about, um,

Byzantine culture and like specifically their mentalities in terms of warfare and um they were very much like no like war is bad like like we we have to do it like they did it but um

that they still had like that Christian, you know, understanding of like, not great. But so that's why I'm like, oh, with their folk heroes, with their folk stories, they could kind of like outsource these sort of like martial virtues to these not explicitly Christian heroes. And

I was reading this and I'm like, yeah, don't tell the Crusaders that because they'll be like... And I was just like, that's all I could think of. No, literally. And then the Crusades happened and that became different. Exactly. It's like... But no, it's very...

That's an area that I definitely want to read more into. And I think there's really good scholarship coming out now about martial relationship in terms of psychology in medieval Roman society, especially because it was so different from the Crusades. They never developed an idea of holy war. Meanwhile, they were fighting...

pagans Islamic powers like for hundreds of years before the Crusades and you know it took like one one big campaign for the Crusaders to be like what about holy war yeah and it's like

I don't know. Like these guys did it for hundreds of years and they never really developed that. Like my, like, it makes me think of the Greeks were like for all, well, well, less the Romans, but the Greeks specifically, like for all we, you know, talk about these problematic aspects of their history, like, and even for all that they like, you know, use the word barbarian pretty fast and loose with like anyone who wasn't Greek. And even still with all of that,

What they lack compared to the world powers now is...

like even though they didn't consider themselves barbarians, like there wasn't this superiority. There wasn't this, like they were wars and atrocities. Absolutely. But they didn't, they weren't based in this idea that we're helping you by committing atrocities against you because we're superior. And that's what the West does now where it's like, no, no. Like I know you're all dying, but like, this is in your best interest because we're,

Western, what we bring is better than what you have, even though there's zero evidence for that fact. Yeah, no, that's a very Roman. Yeah, exactly. The Romans did that for sure. But like,

yeah it's just and that's where holy war come in comes into right this this superiority this like ours is better and thus we deserve to live rather than at least like in the greeks like they were definitely doing terrible terrible things and you know i mean when when athens came along there was there was a level of superiority happening but it wasn't still wasn't in the same way of based in like we have to spread our like it makes me just think of the way that the west tends to

seek to spread our version of democracy as if there it's like an undeniable fact that everyone should have exactly this form and like people have to be mad at me I'm not saying that democracy is bad I'm not saying the rule of the people is bad I'm saying that the form that is being forced upon others or that was like the form as it existed also was like never actually about the rule of all of the people it was about the rule of a very small subset of people we could revisit the idea because

It wasn't built for us. Anyway. No, no, no. Every conversation I have turns into this. I'm sorry, but I'm not. It's okay. No worries. No worries. It's, yeah. No, the world has been. The world's on fire. It literally, literally is. But we can still talk about the ancient people doing cool and gay things. So that's nice. Yes. That's what matters. Yeah.

I honestly feel like we could probably keep going, but I do try to keep our episodes around an hour and a half. So I would firstly, let me say, if you want to come back and talk about that Heracles thing you're working on, once you're done it, I would love to have you back, but, or, or anything really, but generally thank you so much for doing this. And is there anything you want to share with my listeners where they can read more from you specifically your fiction and stuff? Cause I'd love to hear more about that.

Yes, so I have a website, HarrisonVoss.com. It'll have links to all of my short stories and my poetry and also to some of the research I discussed today. You can also, I do not tweet at all, but if people are still on my website, you can find me at HTV498. I'm now on Blue Sky also at HTVoss, I believe. Okay.

And yeah, you know, hopefully I'll have some more stuff coming out soon. And yeah, I would love to be back. Amazing. I did see on your website that like most of the stuff you have on there, or maybe it's just everything I saw because I am me, but it has very mythological names of your work. Yeah.

your short stories and things I did a very short story about Hylas I was going to say that's the one I remember most but also that whole page is all Greek and cute so I was curious yeah, no, a lot of my short fiction is set in antiquity and I'm working on a like any writer interested in antiquity, I am working on a myth retelling, like a novel right now, surprise I'm definitely not in the same boat at all I know

And that, again, touches on all the themes we discussed today. Mostly toxic masculinity and integrity and how it sucks. Hey, it sucks now and it sucked then. Yeah. I'm so glad to know that you're working on this stuff and that that is like... Just even speaking about it this way is so refreshing. So I'm glad to know that there's work like that being done because...

We need more of it. Thank you. I think so too. But yeah, no, thank you so much again for having me. Thank you. This was really fun. This is great.

Well, nerds, thank you all so much for listening. Again, check out the link in the episode's description. I'm worried I meant to say more of those things here, but I don't have it in me. The conversation was recorded a few months back, and I'm just really excited for you all to have heard it. Let's Talk About Myths, Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangawish is the Hermes to my Olympians. She is sleeping in the hotel room next door. I'm jealous of her.

Select Music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, which, again, everything is still to come. A lot after this trip, let's be frank.

Keep in touch via a newsletter, which will come out soon. Again, mostly when the website is finished, which I hope to be soon. Mythbaby.com slash newsletter. I'm going to stop rambling now. Thank you all so fucking much for listening. As always, I absolutely love that I get to do these conversations. They fill me with such joy. I hope you liked it too. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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