Welcome to Cloud!
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You're listening to a Life Uncut podcast.

Hello and welcome to Cloud. I'm Keisha Pettit, or some of you will know me as Producer Keisha from Life Uncut. And over the past four months, we have been working incredibly hard to create this very special project. It's a brand new 10-part miniseries called Cloud.

Cloud is a podcast series designed to discuss ADHD and late age diagnosis. It includes both personal stories and conversations with world leading experts like Mark Manson, the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, neuroscientist TJ Power and relationship experts Sabrina Zohar and Logan Urie.

This podcast series was made for you, however, it was also a very deeply personal story for me because at 29, I sat across from my psychiatrist and I finally asked him whether or not he thought that I had ADHD. One of the more definitive cases was the joke between us. Since then, I have been on quite a journey trying to figure out what I thought were personality flaws and what was actually symptomatic of a condition.

I've been really open about a lot of things in my life, most notably some of my terrible, terrible dating experiences. But this conversation was something that I felt really hesitant about. Creating Cloud has actually been one of the most life-changing and helpful things that I have ever had the pleasure of pursuing. This podcast series will cover why ADHD is everywhere right now, how it presents differently in women, and the lifelong narratives that you might create about yourself when ADHD goes undiagnosed.

Today's conversation is about emotional regulation, shame, masking, impulsivity, self-criticism and success. As for the rest of the series, I am joined by the most wonderful psychiatrist, Dr. Kieran Kennedy, to discuss all of the expert stuff. And I want to make it really clear that I am not an expert in this space. I am merely someone who has done a bunch of research into the hows and the whys that I am the way I am. Welcome to CLOUD.

Keish, we have literally received hundreds of messages over the last year or two requesting an episode with you on ADHD and your diagnosis. And Laura and I always said we will give you the space whenever you're ready. But the fact is you weren't quite ready until now. Why is it that you weren't ready? And what made you feel like now was the time to speak about it?

I think mostly, I mean, I understand the responsibility that our platform has, you know, and it's this type of thing that I didn't want to talk about it until I felt as though not only I wholly understood it, but I had kind of worked through a little bit of the

the emotional process myself. And I was at a point where I felt a bit more comfortable. There's also the fact that when you talk about things like this, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism. And particularly with ADHD at the moment, there's a lot of eye rolling. There's a lot of like, oh, everybody thinks they've got ADHD these days. And it's all over my social media and

And people are talking about it too much and blah, blah, blah. And so there's kind of two parts of stigma that are associated with ADHD. One is the stigma of what people think the condition is. And that's the fact that you're this really intense, really annoying, always fidgeting, can't sit still. You are emotionally eruptive. That type of stigma is one thing. But then the stigma of being yet another person talking about it in media really made me feel

I don't know, I guess like on Life Uncut, I never mind talking about it. I never mind joking about it, especially if it's in a self-deprecating way.

But I felt like I would be annoying. I felt like I would be opening myself up to more criticism about the fact that people are like, oh, God, here we go again. Here we go. Someone who thinks that they're really unique and really quirky and that their lived experiences are so different to everybody else's when they're not. There's unfortunately definitely a narrative at the moment that's like, oh, another person with ADHD. I understand that and I totally understand why you feel like you didn't want to put yourself on that platform to be another person.

But I think that makes this series with you even more beautiful because you wanted to sit in it for a little while, not be that person. And I know that you want to deliver this series in a very different way to anything that we have seen in the media landscape so far. Absolutely. And it's had so many people like myself in there. You know, I was 29 when I was diagnosed, I think.

29? Something like that. Around about that age. I can't remember. Nearly 30 and a lot of women in particular don't figure this out until much later in life. And so we have this light bulb moment where we realize like, oh my God, that's what it is. Like that's the thing that I've been experiencing my whole life. And I didn't know that that's what it was called. Not only did I not know that I was different in that way,

But it has a name and there's a lot of hope that's associated with figuring that out because there's treatment options, there's management, there's other people talking about it. And that's a really, really positive thing. But the negative side of it is that I think the condition has been really over-trivialized. As soon as you type in ADHD into your social media, like whether it be TikTok or Instagram,

You will be flooded. And some of the content, as someone with ADHD, I just find it so incredibly unhelpful. There'll be things like if you sleep with your hands in a T-Rex position, it means you have ADHD. If you have ADHD, it means you hate big spoons. And I'm like, no, it doesn't.

Also, like I don't care if it does. It's so unhelpful. It's like who cares if you don't like a big spoon? Well, it's like these are the things that trivialise it in a way that like that doesn't impact your life. That doesn't, you know, and I mean I guess for me the reason why I was so excited about you being

being willing to make this series is because there's so many people out there who have already gone through the diagnosis and will feel comfort in listening to this. But there's a lot of people who question, okay, is this me? And I don't want anyone to listen to this and self-diagnose, but I do think for anyone... But if you have T-Rex arms, it's you. But I think if you're anyone who's kind of

Because there is so much material around at the moment. If there is someone who's questioned, this might be the information that's needed to go through the processes and it could potentially change your life doing that in the same way that getting diagnosed has for you, Keish.

You and I have been speaking about ADHD a lot over the last couple of years. And when we were talking about doing a single episode on it, I brought it to you and said, how about we do a mini series? And you were very, very apprehensive about it at the start. And I would love to know why it was that you felt that apprehension, but then what was it that changed your mind in wanting to make cloud? I think when I was going through my diagnosis process, I found that a lot of the content I was seeing about ADHD was

that didn't help me and also I didn't relate to it. This whole series that we've created kind of goes along the mentality of reason, not excuse. And what I was seeing a lot of online was this type of conversation of, I might emotionally erupt at you at work and I will interrupt and I will miss all of my meetings and you just have to get over that because that's just my ADHD. Like an excuse. I was looking at it and I just thought,

fuck, that is such a privileged position to be speaking from because if you're in that position where you can miss every single one of your meetings and you can go off at people around you and just completely destroy the relationships around you and still have a job, like how lucky are you? Because...

I couldn't do that. And I've had to create strategies and mask a lot of my behavior throughout my career to make sure that I'm not doing those things to cause myself to become jobless. Do you think though it's people not so much using it just as an excuse, but also giving themselves validation as to why they do those things? I mean, I would be surprised if there's many people out there who have ADHD who are like, fuck it, I can do all these things because I have ADHD. I think people's

have this almost revelation that like it makes sense now why I have found these things so hard. And I guess it's more an explanation to themselves rather than an excuse to the outside world. I think it's also a pushback on the fact that if you're neurodiverse and you're living in a neurotypical society, a lot of you has had to adapt yourself. You know, we've had to kind of soften certain parts of our tendencies or maybe change the way that we approach things to fit a neurotypical world.

And so I understand where it's coming from, but I don't find it helpful. The other side of that is that if you have someone, let's say that it was like an employer or potentially even like someone that you're dating, and the only thing that they had ever heard about ADHD was the person who was shouting, you just have to get over it and you just have to get used to it. Or the person who just

is late for work, lacks the ability to be organized, lacks the ability to make meetings on time, speaks in meetings when they're not being spoken to or it's not productive conversation. There is impulsive parts of ADHD that can be challenging in a workplace. There's also incredible parts of it that can make that person hyper-focused and very passionate about it. But

it gets a bad rap, I think, in workplaces. Absolutely. And so if you think about a hypothetical situation where like, let's say, Britt, you and I were going for a job. We were both equally qualified. We were both, you know, the two at the top that were going to be picked between.

And the employer found out that I had ADHD and that you didn't. And the only thing that they knew about ADHD was the impulsiveness, was the I'm going to miss every meeting. Like they're going to hire the person who doesn't have it because they want to look after the rest of their staff. You know, they want to make sure that they don't have to deal with things that are unnecessary. There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about ADHD.

And I also just didn't like the fact that that was the only conversation that I was hearing. That's kind of what ended up leading us to talking about creating a conversation that not only added the other side of ADHD and the parts that can be really good. And I don't want to be like toxic positivity. It's your superpower. Like, yeah, there are certain things that really fucking suck about it.

And the exhaustion and the mental burnout that can come as a part of ADHD can be really debilitating. And I don't want to dismiss anyone who experiences that. But I wanted to try and talk to people about the way that they have created either structures around them or they have shifted their mindset with ADHD to make it work for them and to make them feel a really fulfilled life. And there was this particular post that came out.

in the Life Uncut Facebook group. Would you like me to read it to you, Keisha? I do have that here actually because it was really, really beautiful. We've shortened this because it was quite long but I am going to read it. It is from one of our lifers called Michaela and she did put it in our discussion group.

An open letter to producer Keisha. Thank you. You don't know me, but I wanted to say thank you for changing my life. I've been a listener of the podcast since the early days and it's always been like listening to friends catch up and your presence on the pod since you have joined has been nothing but epic. I just want to say that your transparency in talking about your journey with ADHD has changed my life. I found myself relating to your struggles and I decided to look into getting a diagnosis. Oh my God, in caps, she yelled that.

A psychiatrist diagnosed me with severe ADHD and since being medicated, my life has only changed for the better. I thought the fatigue, depression and inattentiveness was a fault of mine, not an obstacle that could be managed. I'm a PhD student studying forensic science and this has changed my outlook on my study, ability to focus and work and teaching. It's changed my personal life incredibly. It was like I was looking for an earring back in the carpet with only a small lamp in the corner of the room, but now all the lights are turned on.

I've been meaning to write this message for weeks, but I couldn't quite find the words to express my gratitude towards you for changing my life. Oh, okay. I know. It makes me want to... It's actually just...

She put into words the way so many people feel and she felt that without you even doing a deep dive yet, like that is the impact you've already been able to have, which is why I think it's so amazing that you're going down this track now of like pulling apart every single piece of it, which can be quite confronting for you. And we're just so proud of you for doing it too. Yeah, I feel really emotional reading that. And I actually think it's not because she's thanking me. It's because I relate to her.

The feeling of wondering what life might have been like had I known earlier. I particularly connected to her story because I did an honours in biomedical science and I had the plan of doing a PhD. And I think back to that time when I ended up deciding to leave the lab and leave, you know, that process of doing a PhD. And it was because I was so deeply depressed and so mentally burnt out

And I didn't know why. I thought at the time it was because I didn't have the grit. I didn't have the dedication and I didn't have the time management skills. I wasn't smart enough. I didn't have the things that would make me be able to complete it. You know, I did a year and a half of work in the lab and I ended up kind of throwing that whole thing down the drain and reading her story. Mm-hmm.

Firstly, I don't know how the hell you got that far into your PhD without being diagnosed and medicated because I just so look up to you. I wasn't able to get that far, but it really reminded me of, oh, wow, if I had have known this earlier,

how would my life have been different? You know, what would I have been able to achieve? And that's a really big part of the process of finding out you have ADHD and finding out that a lot of the reasons for why you are a certain way or why you can't seem to pay attention to something for an extended period of time or why you crave novelty. Like I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety back in 2019 and I was medicated at the time.

And for me, the medication, it definitely wasn't the right one. I kind of became a bit of a zombie and I wasn't able to do my job in breakfast radio as well as what, you know, I had done previously. And I remember going through this process where I was like, well, fuck, what are my options here? My options to either remain as depressed as I am and to feel as unmotivated as I've felt for X amount of years. It was probably about 10 years by that point.

Or I can be on these meds and I can not be as quick and I can not be as witty and I can not really show up and do as well at my job. But like, God, I don't feel as awful internally, you know. And I think a lot of people, particularly women who are late age diagnosed, we go through this process of it's a really emotional and kind of you almost grieve what your life could have been. And had I have known this earlier, I

Would I have been as hard on myself? Would I have beat myself up so much for not being able to like remember things in the way that other people did, to not have the skills to turn up for people in my life how I wanted to and how I desperately think they deserved? Would I have sought out really impulsive experiences and gone into relationships that were so fucked and

because I needed that dopamine high, like I needed that buzz to get myself to feel anything, probably not. Like I probably actually wouldn't have had to have experienced as much of that. And so that's why that post hit me so, so, so deeply. And that was kind of why I was like,

Oh, I've been worried about, you know, people rolling their eyes at me and I've been worried about them saying certain things that will be negative and judging me and whatever. And I kind of was like, they couldn't possibly say anything to me that I haven't said to myself. They couldn't possibly judge me more than what I've already judged myself.

And we have the ability to create a different type of conversation. Like that's such a special position to be in. And it's something that I actually hold so deep in my heart that I'm like, wow, how lucky am I that I am now in a position where I could potentially alleviate some of that self-hatred for someone else. It's such an honest reflection on it, Keish. And I think one of the things that I've noticed in the way that conversations about ADHD have shown up in media is people

that a lot of women who have been speaking about it, and this is in no disrespect because I know that so many people have gone through that same journey, like incredibly successful women, women like Julia Morris. She was just speaking about it on I'm a Celebrity, Celeste Barber, Mia Friedman. Like there are so many incredibly successful women. And I think that we have that example now. And I guess for me, I'm like, a lot of people refer to it as a superpower. And a lot of people have managed to have these

phenomenal careers regardless. But there are also people who are not able to hold down phenomenal careers. I don't want to discredit and say that the women who have come out and spoken about it haven't struggled through it. I absolutely give credit to the fact that they have, but it hasn't stopped them from creating empires. And I think that hearing you say, okay, well, I lived this life

that I wasn't able to achieve in. And I had to find a career that satisfied different needs because of my personality is really a different conversation because, you know, thinking that you were having to do repetitive tasks and working in a lab and that did not suit being someone who had ADHD is a different story. That's a story of I failed at that thing that I thought I really wanted to do. Mm-hmm.

for you sharing that. Like, I'm sorry that you had to go through that before being able to know what it was and why that was the case. I appreciate that. And I think that you're exactly right. And that's the benefit of the diagnosis, right? It's not about creating excuses for the way that you are, but it gives you the license to just be a little bit easier on yourself because you kind of understand, oh, well, that makes sense. You know, that's why we call this podcast Cloud, because every single late diagnosed woman that I ever spoke to was like,

oh my God, I just feel like the cloud has lifted. You know, this fog has cleared. It all makes sense now. It all makes sense why I wasn't able to do that or why I kind of, for me, I didn't realize that was why I ended up finding myself in media because in media, there is inbuilt novelty. There is excitement. There are people that are having conversations and it's very on the go and there's heaps of deadlines. And it gave me that feeling

that I lacked so deeply working 10 hours with rats on cocaine in a lab. Like, go figure. I wonder why. Yeah.

Selfishly, I'm glad the fog didn't lift earlier. You wouldn't have ended up here at Life on Gut, that's for sure. I think that there's also a part of how we've spoken about the fact that there does seem to be so many people, especially in media at the moment and on social media, that are talking about ADHD and there actually are a larger portion of people who, just like me,

end up in careers like that because it suits the way that your brain naturally is. And I look at women like Celeste Barber, like Mia Friedman, Julia Morris, and I think what were the things that made you able to be that way? What were the strategies that you put in place? Whether you were aware of the fact that it was a strategy about ADHD or not, how did you get to the position that you're currently in now? You know? Yeah. Keish, how has being diagnosed changed your life?

I mean, we know. I know that I'm going to cry in this. That's okay. That's okay. It has been the single most life-changing thing I have ever experienced. Feeling the weight lift, feeling the shame around what I thought I was, you know, feeling the lightness of medication. I kind of liken it to putting on prescription glasses for the first time. And I remember kind of in those initial days just being like,

fuck, is this how people actually are? Like, is this what it's like to have dopamine in your prefrontal cortex? I am unstoppable. Maybe that was what my sister said when she got hearing aids. She was like, people can hear. That's exactly how I felt. And it's like, wow. And I don't think I realized –

I don't think I realized how bad the burnout got until I felt the relief. And I don't think I realized how many of, you know, the things that I would say to myself that I didn't like about myself were able to be softened. For me, it was through medication. For other people, it's not. For some people, it's through lifestyle changes and all of those other things. But yeah.

Yeah, I guess figuring it out made a lot of every experience of my life make sense. It made sense why every single one of my school reports said the exact same thing. Struggled to pay attention. Every single one of them. Interrupts people in class. It's actually crazy because as a part of your diagnosis, essentially you have to kind of show that you have had this since before you were 12, which is kind of strange. And my mum ended up having a couple of school reports, weirdly, still at her house, and

And I read them all and as I was reading them, I got really upset about it because I was like, how the fuck did no one notice? Like every single one of these reports says the exact same thing. They all say she shows academic potential but she's so easily distracted and she disrupts other people and she talks too much in class and, you know, she's missing days all the time because she's off playing these sports. Yeah.

And I was like, guys. Yeah, alarm bell. And there's a process that I think a lot of people go through where anger is a really natural emotion, especially when you're late age diagnosed. And it's got to do with that whole like, oh, I wonder if things had to be as hard as what they actually were. When you spoke to your parents about getting diagnosed, did they agree? Because it's an interesting one. Often if your parents haven't noticed it in you or they don't think that of you, it's

It's hard for them to get their head around that this might be what it is because ADHD, as we know, and it's something that we will cover in the series and you cover beautifully, Keisha, is that it presents very differently in women than what it does in men. And there's different kinds. You know, there's inactivity, there's hyperactivity, there's different ways. And I guess that people...

People have a very specific or have had prior to the many conversations that have been had publicly about it, that there was a, you know, it was kids that could not sit down, couldn't sit in their seats, were constantly like up and go, go, go. But that is not how it presents in a lot of women. Hence the late diagnosis. Yeah. There are different gender tendencies, I guess. Characteristics. Yeah, yeah.

The thing about ADHD, so right now there are three types. There's hyperactive, there's inattentive, and then there's combined. And I was combined type, so I am combined type. So I think for me, a part of the anger came from the fact that, you know, our understandings of ADHD have evolved so much, particularly for girls and particularly for inattentive type people.

because it was previously thought of, like you said, as this really boisterous condition where you would kick down the walls and you would have tantrums and you would just have this lack of ability to kind of regulate yourself. And now I've got to give grace to the fact that our understandings of that have really changed.

But there was a little bit of anger left over in me because I do have the combined type. So I did have those hyperactive symptoms as well. And I remember talking with my mum about it and I guess I've had to come around and kind of apologise to her because I was really angry at her for kind of being like, how didn't you notice? You know, how didn't you think that this is something that it could be and that you could potentially get me help for?

And I've had to let that go because, you know, firstly, it doesn't really serve any of us. And I know that she only ever had my best intentions, but I haven't actually told my dad. And I think the reasons for that have a lot to do with the stigma that's associated with it, with the fact that

a lot of that generation think that it's not real. The truth is I don't know how he would react, but I think I've wanted to protect myself from the possibility of the fact he might not react well. Or invalidate it. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. And I think that also because of the element of it being there from childhood,

I know that for them it could cause them to be quite defensive and kind of be like, well, you know, it's not my fault. We didn't understand what was going on at the time. And for a lot of little girls it has to do with social conditioning too. So...

For a lot of them, particularly if you fall into the inattentive type, the hyperactivity can be between the ears, can be inside your brain where you overanalyze everything. And that's because as a girl, you're taught to be polite. You're taught to be quiet. You're taught to sit down, sit still. All of those kinds of feminine qualities that are ingrained in us once we are really, really little.

And so it causes that hyperactivity to be turned inwards. And that's why a lot of girls, myself included, were diagnosed with anxiety disorders because that looks like anxiety on the outside. And so you can kind of get stuck in this loop where you think it's anxiety. For a lot of us, we were medicated. And it's not until we get into this kind of phase of our late 20s, early 30s where there is this exposure of ADHD and where we're able to go, oh, hang on a second.

I think it's that. I think that's what it is that I've been having. This anxiety didn't necessarily fit. And I've kind of been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole this whole time by treating it as anxiety alone. And that was very much what I experienced. And I think that that's the reason that I haven't, you know, wanted to be particularly, I guess I kind of pick and choose up until this point, obviously this podcast is going out and I'm happy to talk about it publicly now.

But I've just been careful of picking and choosing who I talk about it with because I just haven't wanted to have to deal with their judgment, you know? Keisha, I know you've said it's changed your life, but I think it's really important to let people know like exactly what that looks like. What are the main things in your day to day that changed for you so that people at home might be like, wow, like that's me. That's what I need. The main one that I have felt a really big shift in is my emotional regulation.

And there is a lot of talk about this from professionals who say that the thing that people with ADHD struggle with is not actually a lack of ability to pay attention. Firstly, we have the ability to hyperfocus if it's something that we really care about. It's actually in the way that we process emotion.

For me, the biggest light bulb moment and the thing that has changed the most is that I experienced this thing called rejection sensitive dysphoria. It's also kind of labeled as criticism sensitive dysphoria. And it's this extremely heightened emotional response to perceived criticism. And perceived is the key word in that. So I had absolutely no idea.

that the way I felt when people would say certain things to me or if I was ghosted in the dating world, I had absolutely no idea that that was a really hyper emotional reaction.

I truly, truly, truly felt that everybody felt that way. And so there would be these little things like someone would make a comment and it very much happened in my romantic relationships. And it's still an ongoing process, but having the diagnosis and having the awareness of what this rejection sensitive dysphoria is gives me more of the ability to kind of zoom out on it and

and be like, okay, this is what they said. Is that what they actually meant? Is that criticism? Do I need to internalize that? Do I need to feel like an absolute useless piece of shit because of this one little comment that they've made? Yeah, it like throws you

for your whole day or your whole week? Oh, in months. Months and months and months. And that was the thing when I was dating, you know, before I kind of knew about any of this is that I had no idea why I would be so hurt by some of the things that people would say or some of the things that they would do. And I didn't really have much awareness of that. So that was one thing. Another thing is that my impulsivity has drastically shifted. When I was going through the diagnosis process, they ask you questions about like,

your financial impulsivity and kind of drug taking habits. And I was like, you know, that's the one thing that just doesn't really seem to fit. I don't think I'm that impulsive of a person. And then I realized that impulsivity actually impacts a lot more than just your bank account and whether you want to put a substance up your nose or not.

I was so impulsive in the way that I would do every single thing in my life. I hate making plans. I just get so overwhelmed by the stress of it. I like to, you know, I would kind of euphemistically be like, I'm so spontaneous and that's such a good quality. And, you know, I'm so adaptable and I'm so flexible and that's absolutely fine. You can call me and we can go to Africa tomorrow. That is not a problem to me. Also still not a problem. Yeah, we can still do that, yeah. That's absolutely a wonderful idea in my mind.

but I was really impulsive in the way that I would go about friendships and I would go about projects and I would start all of these new hobbies and I would get all of the gear for them. And then I would do it for three weeks and then I would never do it again. I would kind of be like, ah, I've moved on from that, you know, next, next, next, next, next.

And it was this whole life of, okay, what's next? What's next? Where's my next buzz coming from? Where's my next thing? In my romantic relationships, I was so drawn to that thrill of that chase and getting the person and, yeah,

It created this sense of like I couldn't have a healthy, balanced relationship because I was just so in need of the toxicity. I just wanted that buzz. You know, I wanted that dopamine. We've all been there. Yeah. I don't think I'm ADHD, but I do recognize a lot of that in myself. Absolutely. And so that has shifted massively.

The time blindness thing is still something that I really experience. Time blindness is where you can get stuck in these moments where you have absolutely no idea that it's been three hours and you're still in a scroll hole. And I think that a lot of people experience that. I think that people with ADHD have to be a bit more careful about it because we kind of lack that awareness of time.

when enough is enough. But that was actually a conversation I had in this series with Johan Hari and about how our technology and how the society that we're in at the moment actually exacerbates a lot of the things that people with ADHD naturally struggle with. Which is also the big question that a lot of people have. And it's the constant one that comes up, like, is it ADHD or is it just a condition of the society that we live in? And

I guess the thing is, is like, well, like we said earlier, this is not about self-diagnosing. Like this is not about you listening to this podcast and then making the decision that you have ADHD by any means. But it is also recognizing like what are the differences between things that we might all do on a certain spectrum versus things that are like very much considered traits of ADHD. Have you guys felt a difference in me? I mean, I've known you now for...

Oh my gosh, four and a half years. Too long. Wow. We're in like such a long-term relationship, guys. Time flies when you're distracted. And I was diagnosed with Medicaid, what, nearly two years, a year and a half, two years ago. Four years because Lola was just born. Yeah. Yeah, four, almost to the month. So, okay, you guys have kind of known me half-half. Have you felt it too, firstly? Yes, absolutely. And I want to preface this by saying that

Everyone listening, you know that Keisha is our employee, but Keisha is one of our closest friends too. You can say things that a normal boss couldn't. No, but also particularly the amount of time that you and I spend together over the years is ludicrous. Sometimes it's like 18 hours a day. It was weird. We were in a little hole. So we saw each other socially.

to chill out at a movie at home, at work, at work events. Like there were all aspects. I was with you when you were meeting people out, like, you know, when we're trying to date and stuff together. So I saw the whole spectrum and I have loved every second of you and every part of you from day dot, but there have been noticeable changes since your diagnosis and your medication. And I think a big one for me is, um,

you're just so much more focused and you're more calm. And I don't want to say calm in terms of that you were ever not calm. I actually genuinely get what you mean. It's like an inner peace. Well, I think, yeah, it's just a peace. And it goes back to what you just said, your emotional dysregulation. Because I remember the number of conversations that we would have, like Deep and Meaningfuls, where I was like, I don't think they meant it like that. Do you think that maybe this is hitting you harder than it should? And I remember having those conversations on repeat because

And I would think to myself, she feels big feelings, you know, like...

sometimes your reaction, I don't want to say wasn't justified because I never want to say that, but sometimes it was bigger than what it needed to be and I've noticed that change drastically. I mean, I second everything that Britt said and I have absolutely seen a huge shift in you. Two things that I think from like an employer perspective, one is that I didn't know how to give you feedback before and it was because every time I did give feedback, I felt as though it

I had like hurt your feelings and it was not my intention to, but it made it really hard to kind of navigate, okay, what's the right way? Mm-hmm.

Because it wasn't criticism. It was just, hey, like try doing it this way. Or like even if sometimes if it was constructive criticism, it was definitely met with a lot of resistance. Whereas now I feel like we can be really collaborative on the things that are feedback. But I also like I'm also sensitive to feedback and criticism. So like I understand that too. I think that's normal human nature as well. And the other thing that's very, very evident and I almost am like I don't want you to be offended by this because I don't want it to – I don't want to hurt your feelings. It's not my intention. Yeah.

But I would notice that we could be having a conversation and it could be about something completely different. Like we could be talking about...

Africa. Literally Africa. And then all of a sudden Keisha would be like, I ate a pineapple on Tuesday. And then we'd be talking about something totally different. But we would be so deep in one conversation and the chat would pivot, but we weren't ready for it to pivot there yet. And so it was kind of this real. It wasn't even anywhere to pivot to. Do you know what I mean? It would just be so left field. We'd be like, Keisha, we'll talk about the pineapple later. Yeah.

Like it's not in the two-minute time crunch until our deadline. Obviously that's like a terrible example of. No, it's not. Actually, it so checks out and I've kind of learnt that and now I can laugh about it because I don't have this hyper emotional response to criticism or what I would perceive to be criticism. Like you said, it wasn't even criticism. It was just like feedback that you have to have when you have a job, you know.

I have learned that I have to sometimes explain to people that I've gone from A to D in my head and I didn't talk them through going through B and C. But there was also – I just laugh so many times thinking about it. Because she'd be like, do you want to go to the park tomorrow? Dog! Dog!

Frank, what did you do, Frank? I would have been like, park tomorrow. Oh, the last time I was at the park, this happened. And I had that pair of shoes. And where did I put that pair of shoes? And oh, that's right. I was supposed to go to the post office and pick up this thing. And I've forgotten and it's still there and I need to go and get it.

And maybe you just kind of hit the nail on the head in a different way. I think sometimes there would be like a running monologue that was said out loud of what you were thinking. And whereas now there's a lot more. Internal monologue. Yeah, there's a lot more silence. Like there's a lot more thinking before impulsively saying the things that you're thinking about.

There was also this thing that Mel Robbins, who is one of the biggest podcasters in the world, for anyone who doesn't know, she's in the self-help space and she has ADHD. She didn't find out until she was in her 40s when her son was diagnosed. And she said this one thing in a video once that I just remember looking at it and I watched it like five times and I bawled my fucking eyes out. It was when she was talking to Oprah and she was talking about how a lot of her life she hadn't felt present for.

And now she feels present for it. And she feels as though she's actually able to be an active participant in her own mind and in her own life. And I was like, that's it. That's what's changed. I now feel as though I'm not in this scatty daze. I'm not in this over analyzing, thinking about everything, trying to like work out what the people around me want from me and trying to do that and trying to please them.

I'm just able to be a lot more. I'm able to like relax into the situation. I'm able to relax into the conversation and pay more attention to what the person sitting next to me. And it's not a foolproof system. Like it doesn't always work. I will still often go off on random tangents, but I have more awareness of it now. And I also think I've got more awareness of when I am interrupting people. And that's the thing about ADHD as well, is that there is this certain element of the way that we kind of think about

things. And for me, my best friend was diagnosed three months before me. So I kind of had this person to talk to about all of these things and that was so incredibly helpful. And when her and I would talk about certain things and we would go off on tangents, or if one of us would be telling a story and the other person would start telling a story about ourselves,

We never cared. We never thought it was rude. We never thought it was trying to turn the spotlight onto ourselves because we see that as adding to the conversation and trying to have a shared experience where it was like, for the time when you were in the jungle for I'm a Celeb, this comes up all the time because it was fucking hilarious. And it was one of those moments that I was like, oh, wow, I did that badly there. Yeah.

The bungee jumping. We were talking about you jumping off this platform. We weren't talking. We were trying to watch it. It was on the TV. We were watching Britt walk into the jungle. And Keisha was like, I've been to Africa. I went bungee jumping. Look at photos. And we were like, not now. Yeah, just give us a minute. And I just wanted to share this video of me jumping off the Victoria Falls Bridge. Because I thought that made me able to kind of show, oh, I understand the emotions that she's experiencing right now. I connect with that, you know. Yeah.

And finding out that firstly, most people think that that's really rude. It's just given me this ability to kind of zoom out and to sit in moments more and be more present with people. And the masking side of things is also something that I really... To be fair, I enjoyed watching it in the ad break. Thank you. Just so you know. It's a great video. I did enjoy it. I really enjoyed that as you crashed out. It was just the timing was a bit off. Yeah, it was inappropriate.

Keisha, I'm glad you mentioned masking because I do know that women with ADHD, and I mainly know this from you, but women with ADHD tend to mask a lot. They become expert maskers and they try to mimic the neurotypical community to blend in and not stand out. When did you realize you were masking and what was that like in terms of just pure exhaustion?

So masking, for anyone who doesn't know, is kind of the, I guess it's the act of counter surveillance of what's going on around you, looking for the behaviors of the people in your orbit and mimicking them. It's kind of this idea of trying to work out what people want from you and doing that. It's almost like a form of acting. And for me, it was really interesting to learn, or I guess to try and figure out where it came from, because I would always make the joke that

that I was a chameleon, you know, that I could be put into any type of social situation, whether it be with people who were, you know, just living in the country and I've done a lot of radio work out in very rural areas, or I could be talking to high-end business people in the middle of the city. I could be talking to people from other cultures. And I just found a way to kind of connect with them, I guess, and be what I thought they wanted me to be in that environment.

And what I've realized is that that actually led to a lot of my interactions feeling quite inauthentic. And it really led to me being what I would describe as an intense people pleaser. And I think it's important to kind of note where this behavior may come from. So there was this study from quite a while back now, I think it was 2010, where

They estimated that kids with undiagnosed ADHD experienced 20,000 more negative criticisms about their behavior than a neurotypical kid by the age of 10. And so that can kind of start this narrative in your head that the way that you are and the way that you behave is not liked by the people around you. And so...

You kind of learn to try and figure out what it is that they want from you so that you can behave in an appropriate way. And like we're all social creatures. We all want to belong. We all want to fit in in the group. And so there is a plus side to being able to mask as effectively as what a lot of people with ADHD can. It means that you can be put into any situation and you'll probably be fine. You know, you may even thrive. But it's really emotionally taxing and there's this constant fear

that internal thought of, okay, that person's, you know, their body language, they're not faced towards me. So does that mean that they're not liking what I'm speaking about? That person just yawned. That person changed the conversation to something else. So they don't want to talk about what I'm talking about. So I need to listen to what they're talking about and I need to try and

get interested in what they're saying so that I can show them that I care about what they're saying because people tell me that I interrupt all the time and that I talk about myself and so I don't want to be that way. Are you conscious that you're having those thoughts though or is it something that almost happens as second nature? I'm conscious of it now because I know what it is. Yeah. Yeah, like I said, it really resulted in me

uh, being a real people pleaser. And I think I, it's a lot of the reason that I struggled so much with validation and I needed so, so, so much feedback from people in a positive way that what I was doing was right and what I was doing was good and that they liked me and that, you know, I was appreciated and, um,

it was almost like an insatiable amount of validation. And so not only was I feeling as though I wasn't really able to kind of let the guard down and let myself kind of chill in any social environment, I also was exhausted from trying to figure out what people wanted from me. And that is not a complete circle even at this point. Over Christmas, I didn't take my meds for like two or three weeks because I just didn't really feel the need to. And

I kind of started to sense that there was a bit more criticism of the way that I was and certain things. There were quite a few arguments within my relationship about me being forgetful and me, you know, losing my keys and I lost my car a number of times and I couldn't find where I'd parked it. And like little things like that, it reminded me of the fact that I'm not quite over being

the point of not masking at all. And that can be a real debate with the whole ADHD diagnosis as well, is that kind of figuring out what is your personality and what is a symptom of a condition that you don't necessarily have control over. Because if you're able to take a pill

And that's able to change. Is it your personality? It's also a frustrating thing though, because once you've been labeled as someone that is forgetful, people look out for it. So it's like I, and I mean, I experienced this because I love to just verbalize what is going on at the time. If I'm looking for my keys, I'll say, where are my keys? I know that they're in my bag. I'm just looking for them. And instantly people are like, oh,

You always forget your keys. And you're like, no, you look out for the moments where you think that I've forgotten something. Like you're actually very aware that you have labelled me as a forgetful person and now you look for those. You don't ever comment on the 9,000 times that I know exactly where my keys are, that you'll comment on the times that you think I've forgotten it. That is the whole conversation about ADHD that I would love to shift because no one ever says, oh, my God, you're so ADHD.

When you're an incredible entrepreneur because you have a tendency to take risks where other people don't, because you have an ability to kind of look outside the box and look for solutions that other people don't, no one ever says, oh my God, you're so ADHD, Laura, because you run three successful businesses and you can switch tasks with a click of a finger. You don't need the warm-up time to get into something different because you're just able to like

hop over to the next thing that's needed from you. No one ever says that. They always say, oh, you're so ADHD when you are late to appointments or you forget that you've had an appointment to begin with. It's always the negative side of it that's spoken about.

And that again perpetuates the narrative of the fact that you're not a good person, that people around you don't like you and that they don't want you to turn up as you naturally are in society. And it's a big part of why people kind of struggle to admit to the people around them that they have ADHD because they don't want the connotations of being a forgetful, thoughtless, selfish person. Yeah. And I think it has connotations of failing at something as well. There's this idea of like,

I think maybe you touched on it perfectly when you said this idea of an excuse, not a reason or a reason, not an excuse. But for some people admitting that that's what it is feels like it's a failure. Then the word deficit is in the title of the condition. Yeah. Like attention deficit.

hyperactive disorder. I mean, for a lot of medical things, we know this about PCOS. We know this about a lot of conditions. The names for them are shit. Like ADHD is a fucking terrible name. Having deficit in the title of something that you have to label yourself with. It's awful. Like it's awful to be like, oh, I have a brain condition that causes me to be deficit. In dopamine. In like the way that I'm able to pay attention to people. Like that's horrible. Yeah.

And also it's not true. We don't have an attention deficit. We have more of a lack of ability to direct where that attention goes. And that's why we can actually be incredible people to have in the workplace, incredible people to have in relationships and friendships. I'll tell you one thing. If you get someone with ADHD and you give them a task that they're interested in, they will get it done eight times quicker than anybody else. Like we can get shit done if we care about it and if we're invested in it.

And, yeah, there's a lot of the negative talk about ADHD that I've tried to work out whether I'm defensive about it because it is offensive or if I actually just think that there's a lack of understanding of what the condition is. Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. Or defensive about it because it is easily to be defensive. Yeah, because I have criticism of sensitive dysphoria. No, I don't read that at all. And I take everything that way.

No, Keish, we just want to say the biggest thank you for everything that you have shared in this podcast series and for the personal stuff, for the research that has gone into it, for the organizing of the incredible, incredible guests that you have put together. This was, I mean, it started as a little idea and it has truly grown into a phenomenal passion project.

And we hope that for anyone who listens to it, whether you've been diagnosed with ADHD, you suspect that potentially you might have it yourself or there is a loved one in your life who has ADHD and you want to better understand what it is that they go through and what their life experience is. This is what Cloud was created for. And we're so proud of you for what you have done to achieve this. Yeah, seeing you the last couple of years has been truly amazing.

to watch and even just the last couple of months that you've been working on this, like you've been working on this since last year non-stop and it's incredible and it's

The people that you have gotten on cloud to interview just shows how incredible you are to have been able to access these people. These are some of the biggest, most influential people in the world in their industry. So I just want to say we're really proud of you. The series is incredible. We've obviously listened to all of it. I sat in on some of the interviews to watch. It was really cool. So well done. And I know you're going to help a lot of people.

Thanks, guys. I so appreciate it. I mean, firstly, you gave me a project I could hyper-focus on for like a couple months. That was great for my brain. I was given the license to kind of do a real deep dive. And you gave me the perfect amount of we will lead you when you want guidance, right?

but you can create whatever you want. And I'm so grateful for that because it gave me the creative license to create a conversation that I was really, really deeply passionate about. And for something that I was initially quite reluctant to create because I didn't want the eye rolls and the judgment, I've ended up being so proud of what we've made and so, so, so deeply hopeful that it really genuinely helps people. Like I hope that it gives them

the ability to not be as hard on themselves and to not criticize themselves so much and to not feel that really, really deep exhaustion and mental burnout that living with ADHD can cause like,

It's just so cool that we have a platform that is able to provide that for other people. And that's something that I do not take lightly whatsoever. So with all of that said, Cloud is available now. It is a podcast series that will live in its own little feed. The second episode is available now for you to listen to with Mark Manson. And we have some truly phenomenal conversations coming your way in the next couple of weeks. There will be 10 episodes for you to consume and

Every single one of these episodes will be available on YouTube. You can like, subscribe, follow, you can rate, you can leave a comment about the podcast and what you thought, but most importantly, I really hope that you can share this with someone in your life that has ADHD. And I so deeply hope you love it.