575: A women's guide to metabolism, protein, & training smarter | Abbie Smith-Ryan, Ph.D.
48:58 Share

Welcome to the My Buddy Green podcast. I'm Jason Wachub, founder and co-CEO of My Buddy Green, and your host. This episode is created in partnership with the Toyota Crown family of vehicles. If there's one thing I know about the MBG podcast community, it's that it's full of folks who are passionate about leveling up in all aspects of their lives. From career climbers to folks who just want to make an impact on the world around them, to people who just want to get the most out of life, this audience is full of go-getters.

Toyota makes cars that can help you get there, no matter the goal or destination. The Toyota Crown family featuring the sedan insignia comes with the quality and reliability Toyota is known for, with a sophisticated look. Featuring next-level interior details, both models include heated and ventilated front seats, heated rear seats, and a heated steering wheel. And they both provide a smooth ride with low noise, vibration, and harshness.

The Toyota Crown Family models' exteriors are sleek, stylish, and bold that stand out on the road. Learn more at toyota.com slash toyotacrownfamily. Again, that's toyota.com slash toyotacrownfamily. Toyota, let's go places. I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto-friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger, so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. One, two, three.

Three. Will that be cash or credit? Credit. Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion that does the heavy lifting so you can do you. Get yours at Samsung.com. Compatible with select apps requires Google Gemini account results may vary based on input check responses for accuracy.

What if I told you that achieving your optimal health doesn't require endless hours at the gym or restrictive dieting? Today's guest, Dr. Abby Smith-Ryan, is here to show us how to train smarter and fuel better. Dr. Smith-Ryan is a leading expert and researcher in exercise science and nutrition whose mission is to simplify the science and empower women with practical, effective tools for every stage of life.

Abby's work out of her lab at the University of North Carolina is innovating on a whole nother level as she's contributed 165 peer-reviewed manuscripts. In today's show, we're diving deep into what women really need to know about nutrition and training throughout their lives.

Abby highlights why protein and micronutrients are essential for women's health, how small changes like eating before workouts can optimize muscle performance, and why strength training is the ultimate key to longevity. We'll also debunk common myths around fasting, calories, and creatine. It's time to take the guesswork out of all things wellness. Let's jump in. So if we think about women's unique needs in terms of nutrition and performance,

What immediately comes to mind for you? I mean, immediately I think about the unique life stages that women have compared to males. And I immediately think about menstruation. So when girls start their periods,

I think about pregnancy. There's a lot of unique needs around kind of pre and postpartum. And then I think about perimenopause and there's unique needs there. So one key component and takeaway is that women's needs are ever evolving and it does depend on where they are in the lifespan. And so let's start with nutrition and let's go through those first.

Those are three major stages, if my memory. So we've got menstruation, pregnancy, perimenopause, menopause, if I pick out that right. Yeah, and I would even use my nerdy brain to say perimenopause is this big phase where we need a lot of different support. And then you have postmenopause, which is every time after that, which is more into our older women. So I would almost say four. Okay, so...

menstruation pregnancy perry post okay so i thought and i get there's no one size fits all i think our audience gets that but let's just try to do it

We're eliminating the men at least for this conversation. So in terms of nutrition, can you talk about the unique needs during those four phases? And we'll start with the first one of menstruation. Yeah, and I'll try and take a more global view. I think the first question that I always ask as a scientist is, do our recommendations need to be different? We have lots of knowledge and research on men.

And that's where a lot of our recommendations started. That doesn't mean it all needs to be different for females. And when I think about some of those key things that would really target across any of those life stages, some of it comes to our micronutrients. One thing I think about is iron. There's new research about vitamin D. I mean, calcium. Like there are some good research to say why.

why some women need different micronutrients, especially at those different life stages. I think a lot of the conversation now is centered around some of the macronutrients. And, you know, I hear a lot about protein.

And I think I always like to take a step back and say like everyone needs protein and our protein needs should be based on our exercise and our goals. And do women need more protein? There is some data that suggests particularly across the menstrual cycle and the premenstrual phase. So that would be right before someone has their period that we may have some more protein turnover. So slightly increased protein and calorie needs by a couple hundred calories.

And then as we are growing a human, so during pregnancy, there's increased protein needs. And then through perimenopause, some of our initial work has also shown that there might be a greater kind of initial onset of anabolic resistance. Our muscles might not use the protein the same. And double-clicking on protein, you mentioned iron. I think of heme iron, that's essentially animal protein. Non-heme is the plant-based protein. So if iron is up there, like...

just to double click on protein, it makes sense. Yeah. And I mean, it's even one step further of like, I am definitely a whole foods person and we should be getting our food and our macro and micronutrients through foods. But iron is one of those things that

Unless you're eating red meat every day, as a female, you still might need to supplement with iron, particularly if you are menstruating or bleeding, you're losing some of that blood. And then on top of that, I know a lot of the listeners are active. If you are damaging red blood cells through exercise, it increases our iron needs as well. Specifically, that happens, I think most people, I don't know if they're aware of this, if you run a lot, you're in danger of doing that. Yeah, and I...

And the ultimate question I always come back to, and this is specific to females and maybe even myself of, I think everyone's trying to do the right thing, but it's so dang confusing.

And like why, if something like an iron supplement might actually give you more energy and more oxygen delivery and you feel better, like why would we not do that? Because we're trying to do all the other right things to help us feel better and make it through our day to day. And so it is really picking apart what are the things that are going to be the most impactful and the most feasible. And iron is one of those things that if you are low in iron, it will absolutely impact your health.

day to day and your fatigue levels. And so do these iron, vitamin D, calcium and protein, it seems like does that hold true for all four menstruation, pregnancy, peri and post? I would say so maybe at slightly different levels and particularly different goals. So the thing that comes to mind is let's say vitamin D.

For someone that's menstruating, we're really thinking about, and we talked about children briefly, but our younger group, they are generating bone density, whereas our older group are trying to maintain bone density and prevent loss. So the function might be slightly different, which is really what we got to dial in. And so bone density, I think I've got, I mentioned this before we started, I have two young girls, seven and five, and our kind of rule in the house, and we're

I think we try to maintain some sort of a healthy diet, you know, and we also want kids to be kids. Like they're going to go to birthday parties, you know, they're going to have cake or donuts. We always emphasize protein. Like, okay, you can have the dessert, but you've got to have protein. Like that's our rule. Like protein, protein, and then, okay, if you want to maybe have at it. Not

Not every day, but every once in a while. No problem. Yeah, I mean, I have two little boys and we have a lot of the same conversation. But what I think about too is we have become this protein-centric society, which is not a bad thing. But especially...

as we age, it's not just protein. It's, okay, let's make sure you add a fruit and a vegetable. And particularly with our young girls, our whole grains, we get a lot of micronutrients in our whole grains. That doesn't mean it needs to come from goldfish and Cheez-Its, which likely they will get, but it is recognizing that like,

If they're active, it's really setting the foundation. And I think that's really important. And obviously I was a young girl at one point. But the thing that we see up into perimenopause is women are under eating.

And it's easy to say, okay, let's focus on protein. But what about like our fruits and our vegetables and our whole grains? Because there's a lot of micronutrients and really important energy within that. So I'll segue to you. You're busy. You're at university. You're conducting studies. You've got two little kids. How do you approach protein?

diet? What does a day in the life look like for you in terms of how you eat, how you exercise, how you pull it all together? Yeah, I hesitate to, I'm going to tell you, but I think it's important that one, I am normal and some days are better than others. Like I think we have to realize it. So is everybody. So is everybody. I know, but I think in these days, like everyone views like, oh, like this is the only way to do it. And

And really my approach to science and to life is what can we do consistently and how do I use the science to evolve? And this is what we, even within the science, I do emphasize protein. So trying to get 30 grams of protein multiple times throughout the day. But I also pair that with a vegetable.

Like really every time I eat, it should be two of those things, both of those things. The other thing is, can we do it in a very feasible, simple way? So like my meals aren't fancy. It's very much an animal based protein or a dairy based protein with a vegetable. And then if I have higher volume, I'll add a starch. And I do that really kind of like

I mean, my meals, like sometimes I'm teaching all throughout the day, but so like a couple of hopefully three meals and then some snacks like a high protein yogurt or a protein shake. That doesn't mean it's just protein. It's usually got some berries on top and some of those things. And then I will be the first to say I was a collegiate distance runner and I did not believe in dietary supplements. I absolutely rely on dietary supplements and that's not because I'm not eating whole foods. It's just not feasible.

particularly as I age to get all of the micronutrients that I need. What did you run? So I ran cross country and track. So like 1500, 3K, 5K. Oh, wow. Okay. And so you didn't believe in supplementation then, but you do now. So I'm curious, what do you take today? Well, what do I take today? Probably too many things to list, but I do take like a multivitamin, omega-3, vitamin D.

magnesium, creatine. And then I think one of the largest opportunities right now in like I'm early 40s is the changes to brain health. So very fascinated with nootropics. I also like I do use a protein powder and I really love actually I think about I feel like everyone should have this. I use an essential amino acid powder with a seltzer.

And I do that on days like when I'm, you know, at the soccer field for three hours and I'm not maybe having a meal. It helps me maintain my amino acid content and it's delicious and hydrating as a way to kind of supplement with that in between meals. Awesome. Well, we can all find about this, but I'll have to send you some of our products to try. So you mentioned creatine and protein. I think the why for many people comes back to body comp.

metabolism and this coming circling back to something you mentioned being protein centric now which i think is a positive thing today because if i rewind 10 years ago and i mentioned this in the show before i think so much of the messaging for women was around weight loss was around eating less was around cleanses and veggies and we love veggies but like green juices and and

It's shifted from a conversation largely around scarcity and deprivation to one of, no, you don't need to lose weight. We need to do a body recomp. In fact, like you're not eating enough. You need to eat more protein. You need to lift. And I just think it's a message of empowerment and ultimately better for longevity. We've learned that.

And so getting to the body comp conversation at the highest level, I think a lot of women want to optimize their body comp. So they want to, whether it's maintain their weight, increase their weight or potentially lose weight, but want to lose fat. That's what we're really talking about. So like grow lean muscle mass, lose fat.

And there's a huge role metabolism plays there. So for a woman listening, how should they be thinking about optimizing their body comp and ultimately their metabolism? Yeah, I mean, this is where I spend. This is, I would say, is like my bread and butter. Body composition is a funny thing. And we have this midlife stage that even if you do all the right things, there are going to be some changes in your body composition. But you hit the nail on the head when we really need to focus on maintaining and building muscle.

because it's the most cardio protective, metabolically protective, bone protective. And so I see that in, yes, I think if you asked a woman, would she like to have less fat and be leaner? I mean, I think the majority of women would say yes. And every man would raise their hand too. Well, right. Yeah. This is not exclusive to women, but I think we also have to remember that even if we build muscle

and we keep the same amount of fat, we're so much better off. The other thing is, again, based on my age, like I grew up in that same scarcity mindset of exercise more and eat less. And no, I mean, like I know to this day, that is the wrong message. And it's the message, it's the opposite of the message I give. But I say it in the way that

It's hard to take what you've learned and what you were taught and overcome that. And that's part of what drives my science is to here's the evidence of why you shouldn't.

And sometimes I have to convince myself of that, especially when you think about like as a distance runner, the whole reason like you just run, you spend all this time. But in reality, and I say that because it doesn't have to be complicated. And some of the key things that women can do to help optimize body composition and energy expenditure metabolism is really focusing on the window around training.

So a lot of our work shows that having a little bit of protein, so let's say 90 calories prior to exercise, is way more beneficial than having it after or not at all. And then if we take that one step further, a lot of our initial work is saying and is showing that if you're going for long periods of time without eating,

so several hours, that has a huge impact on your resting metabolic rate, which is the opposite of why most women are fasting, right? The goal is to try and enhance metabolism and maximize body composition. So like really the key takeaway is

to maximize body composition, it's actually to eat more regularly. To eat more essentially protein and with like some fat and carb like at regular intervals. And I know you, you know, you, we, we talk about vegetables, but like fruits and vegetables, um, they give us a lot of nutrients and hydration. And so I, I would say like, if you build your meal around a protein,

and a vegetable and or a fruit, like you are so much better off. And fiber, like there's a lot of things that happen with our gut. And then if you do something as simple as have, I mean, it doesn't have to be a lot of food, but like we've looked at a protein shake or a yogurt or cottage cheese, like a high quality protein before you train.

It will have an immense effect on your exercise volume, your recovery, your muscle, your energy levels. So translation for a woman who's listening and maybe they do some sort of, not like we call it time-restricted eating.

You don't want to have an early dinner at 5 p.m. and then go work out fasted at 7 or 8 a.m. in the morning. Absolutely not. That would be terrible. Yeah, I mean, essentially, it's almost like you, I hate to say this as a physiologist, but like you almost might as well not work out. Like you still might get some of those cardiovascular benefits, but you're not going to get muscle benefits in reality or anything.

going to have probably a harder time recovering, more muscle soreness. You might not be in a better spot. I think a lot of people are going to be very happy with what you just said. Well, they are, but they're not. So here is another really practical takeaway. Like you said, I'm a busy mom and I have a full-time job. My students, my research team always gives me a hard time of like, it's not fair you have science on your side. And I say that because...

Like I used to train hours. Like I don't have time for that. Yet my body composition is the same. You can train smarter and fuel better. And so like sometimes I train at 530 in the morning. Will Sundays I train fasted? Yes. But I'm not eating at 5 p.m. One of my collaborators, Dr. Mike Ormsby, he's done some really cool work of pre-bedtime feeding.

So maybe I'll have a high quality protein or a quality snack before I go to bed. And then more importantly, I will make sure I fuel right when I finish. Another strategy is like the last thing I want to do at 5 a.m. is slug down a protein shake. But that's where the essential amino acids come in. Or like maybe it's a small like four ounce drink of milk where I've gotten something. Again, it's not about protein.

this massive fuel. It's about just kind of getting some amino acids in the system. And carbs are fine too, but it depends on what you're doing. And so are you, for someone who's waking up early and working out, I think about muscle protein synthesis and kind of the gold standard. You want that 30 grams, you want to hit the two and a half grams of leucine, that's critical. So are you okay with maybe having

It's how the aminos should address that. If they've got two and a half grams of leucine, you're good there. But if you're having like a yogurt and you're not, that's maybe 20 grams of protein or 15, you're not going to trigger MPS. You work out and then have the aminos or protein and creatine right after within like a two hour window.

Are you okay with that in terms of like those who've got like lean muscle goals in terms of that like two hour window? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I guess the other view is like,

We don't need 30 grams to begin that protein synthesis process. That's what we, our optimal goal is. But for instance, if I'm going for a run, the last thing I'm thinking about is like stimulating muscle protein synthesis. I have like other fitness goals. So it would say, I would say if my goal is, is purely an increase in lean mass, then I would want to be more focused on some of that. Not just protein, but also like enough calories, right?

Because we've seen that a lot where women may not gain muscle because of the lack of calories. But yeah, we have to think it's not every window is meant to maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis. It's to kind of fill our amino acid pool. We already have amino acids in there. And so we don't have to have 30 grams. Like if I had to have 30 grams before I went and run, I would not feel so good. So it's, you know, just kind of topping it up.

The bigger question would be almost like the example you gave. If you stop eating at 5 p.m. and then train early, that's a really big window where you might need a little bit more. And I can't even, and this is where maybe men and women aren't so different. I'm like a pretty large man. I'm 6'7". I'm like 225. If I wake up early and go work out, like at 7 a.m., I'm like, I need to eat something before. I just can't do the fasted. I'm just...

Can't do it. Here's the crazy thing. And this is, I think, a really important difference in female physiology that often gets overlooked because it is a bit more qualitative. Like there's days if I don't eat, I actually feel better.

And there's this anxiolytic response of like you almost, now it's short term, you can't do it long. And so I say that it also ties in to some of the hunger cues and the very well documented changes in brain clarity and cognition, really starting in postpartum and into menopause that

There is more to be said of just like eating because you're hungry, because sometimes you might wake up and not be hungry if your metabolism is really slow. And there are a lot of things related to brain function that we forget about in addition to kind of peak muscle. And so is there, if women need to eat more, can they max out? Is it you don't want to have more than six kind of meals?

meals a day, whether it's like three large ones and three snacks, like are there diminishing returns or it's like maybe or just do you ever is there a rule of thumb there? I mean, yeah, I feel like this is it's so much depends on how active a woman is, like how many calories they're burning. I do think we've gotten I have seen and actually spoke to women that they

are following the messaging of lift heavy and eat more and they're gaining fat. Like, I think we have to have to realize it is fueling for your lifestyle and feasibility. Like there's no way that I'm going to have six meals a day and that's okay. You know? So I think it is saying like, well, what, what can you do and what, how does it meet your energy needs? And then, yeah, I was going to say that one other really important point of that is that

how many calories do we need is a starting point. And that is a bit of an elusive target, I think, for our women, because it does change a little bit across the menstrual cycle, throughout pregnancy and in perimenopause. But it is largely, it appears to be impacted by fasting or lack of meals. And I say that of like, okay, I'll use myself as an example. I don't

don't want to have to eat six meals a day. Nobody has time for that. And so like, I'm okay. Like I also, I don't know, sometimes I just don't have time or have the desire to eat, but I'm going to eat anyways. And so it's this blend of, you know, getting enough for the right goals. This episode is created in partnership with the Toyota Crown family of vehicles. The Toyota Crown family shows the sophisticated side of Toyota and effortlessly makes an impression.

Just hop in the driver's seat and you'll feel ready to take on anything. In two stylish, dynamic models, you can find the perfect option for you. The Toyota Crown Sedan is available with bi-tone exterior paint or a nightshade edition with darkened accents. In addition, it has an available hybrid max powertrain with up to 340 horsepower. The Toyota Crown Cigna has a sweeping roofline, monochromatic grille, hammerhead front design, and sizable cargo space.

It boasts fuel efficiency of up to 38 combined estimated miles per gallon. Those have comfortable, dynamic interior designs and a quiet, smooth feel to the ride, so you feel completely in the zone the entire journey. Learn more at toyota.com slash toyotacrownfamily. Again, that's toyota.com slash toyotacrownfamily. Yeah, look, I can't do it. And if I were to pay attention to my, you know, one gram per pound, 200 gram, I can't do that.

And so what do you think of the kind of more realistic rule of thumb in that, you know, focus on

two big ones, you know, focus on maybe breakfast or dinner and like be maniacal. I'm going to get my 30 to 40 grams. More importantly, I'm going to hit my leucine threshold in the middle of the day. It's kind of like have at it, like do what feels right, but really focus on like the bookends of the day. Yeah. I mean, honestly, for women specifically, I would say focus on the front end of the day. It's when we have the most

Mental acuity, dedication. And there is really good data that if you can fuel yourself when you need it, toward the end of the day, our hunger hormones set in and we can't overcome them. So more realistically, I interact with individuals that they fast most of the day. They'll have something for lunch. And then obviously in the U.S., a lot of our meals focused around dinner. But then once you start eating, you can't stop.

Eat like you have this desire for sweet things and you keep eating. And that's really the sign that you're under fueled during the day. And so, you know, maximizing a high quality protein and a fruit and vegetable early in the day. And then obviously everyone's schedules different. My follow up advice would be don't go several hours without a meal. Maybe that is grabbing a 20 gram yogurt or a protein shake or maybe a bar, but like making sure it's

It's not going for several hours without something because that's where things fall apart. Like I would say arguably in the middle of the day is when our brains and bodies are most active, even if you have a sedentary day job. And the other thing too, I know everyone kind of knows this, but I also don't think we talk about it enough. I'm curious your view on

Make sure to hydrate so it's not a false hunger cue. 100%. And there was some really fascinating data, particularly in our women in 30s and 40s, of there's this increased brain fog and migraines.

headaches and honestly a lot of it comes back down to hydration and electrolyte imbalance and so yeah I wouldn't say just water but actually hydrating it is really important not only for hunger but for a number of other physiological outcomes so in terms of hydration and electrolytes very popular right now super important

In your view, how are women's needs potentially different in terms of electrolytes? Maybe more potassium, less potassium, more sodium, vice versa. How do you think about the core minerals? Yeah, I mean, it so depends on women's sweat rates. But honestly, what I would think about, and this is more of a supplementary electrolyte, but the magnesium supplement.

Like most of the electrolytes on the market are going to get you what you need. And some of them are so salty, it's just meant to have you keep drinking. But it's thinking about and even the sugar content. Sometimes the sugar is helpful to help replenish that hydration. For me, it comes down to what am I getting through a drink versus food?

And that's where it's going to impact. Like if I'm a person that doesn't have any salty foods or, you know, has low potassium, I want to look for those in those rehydration beverages versus I just need something that has a little bit of everything to replenish. But then really, I do think a lot of the differences come in through like magnesium. And with magnesium, the rub is my huge fan of magnesium. But the rub is for people you need. You need enough.

But if you do too much, it's going to put you to sleep. It's going to, I was going to say, it's going to put you to sleep or if you're taking the right kind, it's going to make you run to the bathroom. And, and that's where like, I like some of that at nighttime because it is doing what it, where, yeah. So like, I mean,

I mean, honestly, this is probably not popular opinion, but even something like milk has electrolytes. It's really just maximizing... Milk? Milk, yeah. I'm not saying to necessarily just use that. Milk is coming back. I feel like good old-fashioned, I would say grass-fed milk is making a comeback. I think it's positive. Yeah, yeah. So I do think sometimes those electrolyte beverages are helpful. And so creatine. You're a big proponent of creatine specifically for women. Yeah.

Tell us more. Yeah. So, I mean, I have studied creatine for many, many years. It wasn't always just in women. And most people know of it in more like a sports supplement realm.

And it is helpful. But to be honest, like I could care less if I can get a couple extra reps on my squat or my bench press. That's really where a lot of the research is or like you can maybe sprint a little bit more on your intervals. That's great. I think the really cool benefits more come from our brain and our recovery and our bones.

which is what makes it unique for women. The other really important piece is like you can get about five grams of creatine, which is a typical daily dose. If you were to add, let's say like another six to eight chicken breasts in your diet. It's a lot. Yeah, my mouth, my jaw hurts just thinking about it. So it comes down to feasibility of like, I'm still gonna eat my high quality proteins, but adding that extra creatine can be really helpful.

And, again, that's where we bring in some of those brain differences and recovery differences. Like I even say now some of my recommendations have changed a little bit of like five to 10 grams a day can be really helpful for the brain components.

And this goes back to some of those life stages we've talked about, like younger girls, active girls. I would, and again, Whole Foods first, I wouldn't go say, hey, all you young girls take creatine, but prophylactically in a prevention of concussion. So if you have like high impact, you know, high school sports, whereas through pregnancy, like I supplemented with creatine with both my children.

into like even while I was nursing based on the potential benefits about five grams. And then now as I've aged a little bit, I stick closer to like five to 10 grams a day, especially in periods where I'm really trying to focus on like the brain health component. So

You'll often hear three to five for just muscle. Like if I just want the muscle benefits, you could probably start at three. And then what I'm hearing is if you want the brain, you're probably going to want to go five, maybe 10. And then bone is like north of 10. Am I summarizing correctly? Yep. Yeah. And I mean, I think my response is, wouldn't you want all those benefits? Yeah.

But we do need to like it also comes down to like how much are you getting in your diet and what are you consistently doing? And so and frankly, some of the times I don't want to take 10 grams every single day. And I might not. It's not like you if you stop taking it one day, your levels go back to baseline. It comes back to consistency. And so that's another thing to consider. And how do you think about body weight and dosage?

Yeah, I mean, it's an important conversation, but we don't need to make it more complicated. I think, meaning like, could we probably narrow in our dosages better for size? And someone like you, would you maybe need a little bit more than someone like me? Probably. But at the end of the day, like if we're like, if you consistently take it, your levels are going to saturate. The time to get there would be more of the question. And yeah.

Where science is today, and it's a very different place from where it was a decade ago, there's no...

health consequence. If you're taking more dosage, the kidney conversations become completely debunked. Like there's no real downside unless maybe you're sensitive to it. Yeah. And I like to remind people that if you do increase creatine and protein, it's not the same thing, but it is wise to consume more water, more fluid, just especially with our protein because you are creatinine

cleaving off that nitrogen. The other conversation we have a lot, and this is partly why I've specifically studied it in women, there's this conversation about weight gain. Like, why would I want to take creatine if it's going to increase weight? But it's so temporary. Well, one, it doesn't typically happen in women. And we've shown that even across the menstrual cycle. Like, you may gain half a pound. And really, it is signifying that you're pulling water into the cell

which helps prevent dehydration. It helps with hydration. It really helps with like, I mean, in indirectly cellular energy. Like, why would you not want that? And I will absolutely give up a half a pound for that. Well, also not to just to clarify,

Gaining weight's not bad. It's gaining the belly. You don't want the belly fat or the quote unquote bloating, so to speak. But like women may, women or men may take creatine and experience weight gain. And if you actually do a DEXA or a body scan, you'll find like the weights of the muscle. But we don't want, no one wants the unwanted belly fat. Well, yeah. And I do, I do hear a lot of people, particularly women that creatine, it's not a lot of people, but can cause some bloating.

And I would say, well, what are you taking it with? Creatine by itself is not usually going to cause that. Or are you taking enough water? So...

I think we have to make space. Everyone is different. But yeah, the side effects that some people are experiencing are not directly coming from the creatine itself. 100%. I think hydration is, that's the PSA. Hydrate. If you're taking creatine, if you're increasing protein intake, if you're taking creatine, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. Something else you mentioned, you said train smarter. I don't think anyone wants to train more.

I want to do less. I think everyone wants to do less. They want better results. So what comes to mind when you said, how can we train smarter? Yeah, I mean, this is where I spend a lot of my time. And I think it brings in this conversation of lift heavy. Women should do whatever the hell they want to do. Like we don't need more barriers to what we should and shouldn't do.

And I do feel like that's some of the messaging of like, oh, I shouldn't be doing the things. Well, one, do the things that we also exercise for our mental health. But a lot of the work that I look at specifically is around high intensity interval training, high intensity resistance training. And it's trained smarter because really, like we also have to think about the negative consequences of exercise, meaning like there will be joint pain and injury if you do exercise regularly, which now there's better technology for that. But

How can we have a bigger bang for our buck when we are trying to juggle all the things? And to me, that's where one, some high intensity interval training comes in, especially for the cardiovascular benefits, which women are at a major decline in heart risk as we age. So that overcomes some of that. It also, our work has shown high intensity interval training can also stimulate muscle

which you won't see with traditional endurance training. And then like a lot of the times the question of what is high intensity resistance training? It's really the best way to describe it is you're lifting a load that is, you know, maybe around 80%. So something you can lift about six to eight reps. The rest period is short.

in between sets and it's all whole body movements. It's really just more of a strength and hypertrophy based program, but keeping it quick, keeping the load heavy, keeping it quick. So essentially being more efficient because you're not resting in between sets really.

How do you think about for those who wear or tracking their heart rate, maybe they're wearing a whoop or something else. How do you think about the heart rate zones and where you want to be if you want to get bang for your buck when you're lifting? Yeah. And this is where my opinion might differ a little bit of like if I'm talking to a woman who her her pure and only goal is to build muscle.

I might change some of those recommendations on the rest periods, like, cause we want to make sure she's lifting a heavier load. Like there's a volume based component, but most of us women, like we want to build muscle, but also maintain health and feel better. And so that's where I think those heart rate zones of if the goal of high intensity interval training and high intensity resistance training is to get you at a heart rate that is not sustainable. And then you have a break, you spend more time in those higher heart rates to allow for some of those cardiovascular changes.

So if we were to say 30 minutes, I'm lifting for 30 minutes, how would you split up say zones two, three, four, and five? If you were splitting up the pie?

Gosh, I mean, you're not going to like my response on this. Like, I don't care. It really is like, okay, if you have 30 minutes and access to weights, and this is another really important part of the conversation that I think is being lost is if my goal is to build muscle, it's not just living heavier weights. It's a volume component. Like we know that hypertrophy and is linked with volume. And so when we create our exercise program or if I have access to weights, I'm going

go in and do a push-pull exercise of the largest muscle groups that you can lift, you know, let's say six to ten times, and you're doing multiple muscle groups if you have time. Like, the other piece is consistency. And so I would care less about zones while lifting, right?

And more about are we able to lift a certain load and get some of that volume in there, simulating the muscle effectively. So let me approach the question a different way then. Hear you loud and clear.

For someone who wants to, like, okay, say they're lifting three days a week, four days a week, they're going to hit the volume. Volume essentially is like you got to hit enough sets and reps. Otherwise, you know, and probably you should feel a little sore the next day. I think that's kind of like the best way for not feeling sore. You probably didn't do enough. Unless you had appropriate nutrient timing. There you go.

But you should feel something. If someone's doing, say, two to three days of HIIT, whether that's rowing or the assault bike or Pilates, how do you think about duration and the heart rate zones? There's some school, well, you know what? You'll often hear, well, this isn't HIIT, but you want to do two 45 minutes of zone two a week. If we're talking purely longevity, cardiovascular benefits, right?

And then others will say, well, you know, you want to get the VO2 max. So one day a week, you want to like go all out and try to kill yourself. I'm not so much a fan of that, but I understand. I approach it a different way. How do you think about HIIT?

In terms of duration and like heart rate zones or how we can measure, like, are we actually accomplishing this if we've got a couple of days a week? Yeah. Great question. I still think it's even more complicated. So, and this is a, this is a biased response. Like a lot of what.

my recommendation is very leveraged in the science of a protocol that seems to be most effective for these VO2 max changes, cardiovascular changes, metabolic changes, is 10 sets of one minute on, one minute off. And cumulatively then, so then really you're only training for 10 minutes.

But it's 20 with the rest period. And we've seen changes in three sessions. Wow. How hard are you going in that one minute? So that one minute is like something that you could not do for a minute in 20. So you're going pretty hard. You're going like zone four or zone five, so to speak, anywhere from 70 to 100% heart rate.

Yeah. And I mean, I've even seen a little bit less and that's okay. That just might mean like you, it might take maybe one extra session to see some of those benefits.

And so it's a very manageable, effective approach where you don't really have to worry about time and zone. It's can you fit that in a couple times a week? And we've shown like the twice a week and not just us. I also know that you interacted with Dr. Kabbalah. A lot of his work focuses on that. And anyone can do anything for a minute. It's the feasibility component and the

consistency, something that you can do again and again, and it can meet you where you're at. Depending on your fitness level, that might change. I'm even thinking like pre-postpartum or as we age. I think that's really important because my big watch out, and I don't think I'm alone here, is as you get older, you don't want to get injured. And

I think for people who maybe didn't play competitive sports, figuring out like they don't, I think it's hard. You have to be very in tune with your body. Like how hard can I go and know when to back off? It's something I'm very aware of now. Like I kind of know my limits. It's like why I don't do group class. Like I kind of know from being an athlete. I think that's hard.

And I think what you don't want to your statement around that, just go heavy lifting, you know, well, if you just go heavy lifting or you just go all out in the VO2 max, it's likely you're going to injure yourself. And something I've experienced, whether it's, you know, if you can see like, you know, my playing around with my daughter, I got smacked in the eye. It's like two weeks has gone by and like, I still have this bruise.

30 years ago, that would be gone in like five days. Or, you know, I've got a little joint pain over here. Like the reality is recovery from injury. It's a bitch when you get older.

I'm not going to lie. I feel great. I feel like... Well, recovery from your day-to-day too, right? It's not just from injury. But I feel great. I feel fantastic. I'm turning 50 in a couple of weeks. I feel great. I feel great. That's the one thing. If I get injured or a little bit, like, oh, wow, not the same. Yeah. But I think you're also speaking to this of...

regardless of some days you feel better and some days you don't. And we have to realize like we're doing life too. And you adjust your training. Like you can still do high intensity work, but maybe it's not as heavy as a load or as fast and that you're still going to get that load because maybe we're not recovered. Our sleep was terrible. And so that's why this approach does help you adjust even how you're feeling. Agreed. So you're

You've done so much work. There's so much science, as you say, and the science is on your side. What recently have you worked on that is really important to you? It's a great question. I feel like right now we have like two areas of focus. One is more of a passion project is really trying to say, how do we help female athletes that are currently in competition? And that's any age, right?

And this concept of how do we incorporate the menstrual cycle and does it matter? Because regardless, you still have to perform. So really trying to understand, like, you're not going to change someone's menstrual cycle, but you can change their nutrition or their recovery strategies or some things to help with symptoms. So really helping that, I would say, younger group perform and optimize their health. And then...

A lot of my other time and passion is with this midlife women really because, and, and it honestly, it started even before I got there. I guess I'm technically midlife now. We can argue that, but, um,

It's amazing that as women, you cannot get help in one area. Like you might have, let's just say brain fog. Where do you go for that? If you go to your GYN, they're not going to have the training or training.

know to or how the hormones impact that. And then there's this big conversation about hormone replacement therapy, which I think it's good that we're talking about it. But you can't forget the lifestyle behaviors, the exercise and the nutrition and the lifelong things that happen, even if we bring in some of that hormone replacement therapy. But none of those like our health care is so disintegrated. Some of what we're trying to do is figure out

How do they all come together? And then more importantly, what is a feasible and evidence-based message that we can give because so many people are already overwhelmed? How do we actually give some effective information so that women know how to care for themselves better? So if you could wave your magic wand, have unlimited resources, do any study you could ever dream of, what would it be? I mean, there's about 12.

I do think like my bigger vision, and I hate to say this out loud because I don't know if it will ever happen, but is to create a women's health center.

Where you bring together experts that are MDs with a, you know, GYN, you bring physiologists, nutritionists, you bring in our psychologists, our neuroscientists. So a woman can come in and get all of the conversations that are impacting each other in one place where we also can capture data to understand how would we translate those on a more global level. Wow.

We don't have a physical location, but we're trying to have that conversation at MindBodyGreen where we bring in all those people. We don't have the data. I mean, that's something we can do in the future, but I'm sure people would opt in, but I love it.

We've covered a lot today. Is there anything we didn't cover that you want to touch on or anything you want to, any words of wisdom you want to leave our audience with? Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I always like to tell the women, especially that we work with and even the girls of be an advocate. We have to be advocates for ourselves, especially in our healthcare. So like, if you feel like something's not right, like have those conversations and don't take no for an answer, even though it's this long drawn out process, like there will be some answers. And again,

This is maybe more of a personal comment, but like we as women have so much guilt, mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. But like prioritizing yourself right now at whatever age literally will have a life changing impact for you and the people around you. Like I think we need a reminder that you might take time to exercise, prioritize your nutrition, whatever it may be, and that's not going to help you.

And that's actually going to be more beneficial than, you know, taking that time with the people that you're trying to serve. And I think women, we need reminders that like you matter, particularly in this age, like I'll say, you know, 30 plus of like, those are the time and the lifestyle changes that will actually improve your longevity when you get to 60. Amen. Abby, thank you so much. Thanks so much.