589: The deeper meaning of muscle for women | Bonnie Tsui
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Welcome to the MyBuddyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wachub, founder and co-CEO of MyBuddyGreen, and your host. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. With Stash, there's no more confusing, frustrating gatekeeping to keep you from investing. Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster.

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$25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures. That's get.stash.com slash mindbodygreen. Paid non-client endorsement. Not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Investing involves risk. Offer is subject to terms and conditions.

What does muscle mean to you? Strength? Power? Maybe even beauty? Well, today's guest, award-winning journalist and best-selling author Bonnie Swee, is here to explore all of the above and more. Bonnie's latest book, On Muscle, takes a deep dive into the science, history, and cultural significance of muscle, showing us how it shapes not just our bodies, but also our identities. Bonnie grew up balancing two worlds, art and athletics, raised by her dad, who was both an artist and a firm believer in the

value of movement and muscle. She spent a decade as a competitive swimmer and her lifelong fascination with the human body is evident in her writing. In On Muscle, she unpacks everything from the way muscle communicates with the brain to its role in confidence, longevity, and even metaphor. In today's show, we'll talk about the adaptability of muscle, why it's never too late to build strength, and the link between muscle, brain health, and longevity. And

we'll dive into the incredible story of Jan Todd, a pioneer in women's weightlifting. This conversation is a love letter to muscle, its resilience, its beauty, and the ways it shapes both our bodies and our lives.

So why a book on muscle? Literally, that's the title, On Muscle. I wanted to continue the conversation of the body that I started with Why We Swim, you know, but kind of expand it out to include land activities, you know, just but just that we we all inhabit.

inhabit a body, right, in the world. And I think I was just really enraptured by the idea of the fact that muscle is one of those things that we take for granted, but do we really understand it? And I wanted to examine muscle from this 360-degree view of science, culture, you know, art, society, gender, power, politics, all those things. And of course, as a woman in the world, I

we get different messages about muscle, right? Than men do. And I was very interested in examining that as well because I grew up the kid of a

an artist, my dad, who was born and grew up in Hong Kong and he trained as a martial artist as well. And when he came to America and then I, and my brother and I were born in New York to him and my mom, that he kind of raised us up in his studio as artists and artists.

And also he wanted to train us up as athletes, you know, as people who knew how to the value of exercise. And so my brother and I, he always says that he trained. My dad says he trained us up as to be his little ninjas. And my brother and I are very, very constitutionally averse to conflict.

But what we learned from that was the value of being embodied, right? Like of physicality. And for me as the girl, like he didn't treat me any different from my brother. And I think that very early upbringing and view of the body, not just as a, in form, right? As the artist, I was looking at the body in this way and appreciating it the way my dad did, but also as the,

functional, right? So those two things really went together in a way that I think was really healthy for me. So with regards to women and muscle specifically, can you walk us through some of the history here and the cultural changes that we've seen over the years? Sure. I mean, I think any woman in the world knows that muscle has been for a

a long time equated with masculine, right? Masculinity. And this goes back to, you know, the biological underpinnings of like what it is to be exhibit strength, visible strength, because in nature, you know, across species there, there's often the larger one of the, of the, of the animal, like in male and female is larger. And so tends to be the one that is fighting off

predators or going to get food or protecting the nest. And there is like a, there are, you know, various balance, imbalances here across species. And, but we don't live in that world anymore. We don't live in a world in which we need a man to go and like clean up

club animal and drag it back to the cave. And so, and that is a very crude way and sort of stereotypical way of saying it, but I guess we live in this modern world and there, I think that the sort of biological underpinnings for when we hit puberty, you know, like up until age 10, girls and boys are

like physically are pretty much the same, you know, in terms of like speed and power and strength. And so in oftentimes the girls are stronger than the boys because they start to develop a little faster and grow a little faster and then pass at ages when, you know, the muscles that come with male puberty kind of tend to be bigger. The growth of the bones is longer. You know, you have bit

bigger levers to produce more force. And so there are indisputed changes that come with puberty to the body. But I think that with our ideals of beauty, there's still this collapsing of muscles into this gender binary that I think can be very harmful these days. But do you think, I think culturally, I've seen a big shift in the last couple of years where

More women are lifting weights. They're lifting heavier. They're focused on increasing their lean muscle mass. They are eating more, not eating less. I think, and I've said this before, I'll say it again, that...

I think women were sold this terrible idea that you had to exercise more and eat less and juice and cleanse and maybe you shouldn't focus on lifting. You don't want to be bulky. And we conflated weight and health and it was terrible and it's all wrong. And the reality is,

If you're looking to, you know, quote unquote, get toned or feel great and feel or look great in your body. No, you don't necessarily need to exercise yourself silly and eat less and juice and cleanse. You probably need to

eat more protein and do resistance training and build lean muscle mass so that you melt away the fat. And you may even gain weight, but you're going to notice it in your waist. And that culturally it's become more accepting for women to have some muscle. And it's bigger than just the physicality of what it looks like for a woman to be toned. It's this idea of women stepping into their strength and

their power, it's okay to be strong. I think it's just tremendous. It is tremendous. And I think there's always been a kind of pendulum swing back and forth, right? You kind of look back over the decades to various fitness crazes and sort of when bodybuilding stepped into the fore and muscles became more visible. And I think that it's constantly this shift. But now we have much more

reason to, there's more science behind it. There's more knowledge behind the fact that with age, starting from age 30, sarcopenia, you lose muscle. That's age-related muscle mass, especially with women. As you age into perimenopause, menopause, the

necessity and vitality and importance of having muscle in your body as resources to draw on for your overall health, for your brain health, you know, because muscles are constantly talking to your brain. Muscles, when you exercise and move, are sending messages to all these different parts of your body and actually make your brain bigger, you know, and that's why when we are

are when the kids in school with PE do better in school. And that's because there is this brain, mind, and muscle communication that's happening all the time when we're moving. And muscle is one of those incredible tissues that is probably the most adaptable, changeable tissue in

in your body. I mean, it's one of the most and it's like changing from moment to moment. And I think what is so awesome about muscle that I learned through this book is that this idea that we are capable of change. And I think that no matter when you start to lift, you know, you could be a lifelong non-exerciser. I don't recommend it. But if you start exercising, you're

Even in your 70s, you're going to see the benefits and gains and you're going to see the fact that you can get stronger and the muscle will respond to the environment and to what you need it to be doing well into your older age. And I think that that's something that people don't realize and they think it's passed me by. Exercise, lifting, strength training has passed me by and it hasn't. You know, it's such a self-confidence and self-esteem booster because if you do resist

resistance training and you do eat enough protein maybe you take creatine you're going to experience results and you will look in the mirror and you will notice a difference and that's powerful right you'll notice a difference every day i think that that's what's so it's so beautiful too right these incremental daily gains that you have that you know suddenly two weeks three weeks four weeks six months down the line you're like oh i can lift that

you know, bag of groceries that I had a lot of trouble with before. I can go up and down these stairs, no problem. Like my, you know, it, it, I'm steady. I'm just, it can be small things that become big things. And I think that that is really something that

in our increasingly virtual world, like having the tangible gains is very grounding. Well, it's the, you know, you got the aesthetic benefit. I think everyone likes looking in the mirror and feeling good about how they look. And then the functional, you know, I can do the stairs with the groceries. I can lift heavy things. And then you touched on the longevity benefits. So you also mentioned, you know, you mentioned beauty and the book is almost a love letter to muscle too.

So can we spend a moment, like what do you think makes muscle so beautiful? So many things. I mean, I think, so in the form, there's a, the book is broken down, as you know, into these theme sections. And there's a section on form, which is about art and anatomy and the aesthetics of what muscle sort of how, you know, it is not only how we move through the world, right?

But it also gives us shape, right? It gives us like integrity. And I think that we it's I was so interested to dig into the history of why we think a muscular body is beautiful. And kind of going back to ancient times, ancient, you know, older literature into history, like the Greeks, right?

sculpted muscular bodies with bulges and ripples before they even understood what muscle was. And they didn't actually put them in the right places, but they knew that like an articulated, there was something associated with that. And that was like the control and fitness and a form that was beautiful, right? Because it was strong. And I think that that is something that does translate to

to today, right? It holds true today because all of these Renaissance artists who really were able to

communicate the beauty of the human body based on like sort of anatomical study, you know, like Michelangelo and Da Vinci and like that, that all of that is based on anatomical study, like dissection, right? So to kind of examine what is the stuff of muscle that makes us work and how to understand it. And there's just like, I think that there is an association of power.

that even before we understood that muscle was the thing that moved us, that it gives us this integrity and form in the world. Does that make sense? Sure. So I do think that it is beautiful because of that. And on the subject of beauty, you write specifically about shoulders. Yes. I love shoulders. Yeah. I mean, as a swimmer, I think I'm super biased. I think the metaphor of...

Okay, so one of the things that I really love about writing about muscle and examining the cultural importance of muscle is how we talk about it and how we talk about different parts of our bodies, you know, like as metaphor. So

To shoulder something, right, is to kind of be able to carry this burden, right, this capability. And like we kind of think about different emotional states with our posture, like, you know, shrugging your shoulders or bowing your shoulders, you know, you kind of indicate indifference. Or if you are sort of bowing your shoulders, you are indicating that you are

You're sort of like differential to something. But they are like strong, you know, strong shoulders. It's something about the way you carry yourself. There's like a regal posture to having strong shoulders, I think. And of course, like they are so integral to every single movement every day. I mean, so many muscles are, but I think there's something special about like this multi-rotational movement.

joint here, all these different muscles that work on your scapula. Like there's 17 different muscles that make this kind of motion possible and everything. I think I write this in the book, but it's like everything from like reaching for a glass or like putting your phone in your pocket or like typing, you know, it's just, it's so everything in our lives is so dependent on, on that movement. And so many things can go wrong when your shoulders are messed up.

Oh, yeah. So it sounds like functional, a little bit metaphorical. And then aesthetically, it seems like you like shoulders, too. I sure do. Yeah.

What do you think about shoulders? When I read the book, I was like, ah, you know, it makes a lot of sense in that shoulders are very functional. And it's one of those things that, you know, you don't think about it until you have an issue with the shoulder. I've had issues with shoulders. I've dislocated my shoulder. You don't realize how much you use it. And I do think it's this idea when it's very visible. If someone's walking toward you from a distance, like broad shoulders, you can kind of see it and they,

And no matter what you're wearing, so if it's winter and you're wearing a winter jacket, like you maybe aren't going to see someone's arms or legs, but you will notice broad muscular shoulders because it essentially extends your width, if you will. Your clothes hang from there, right? Yeah, exactly. It kind of makes sense. Something else I wanted to touch on in the history, you write about the first female weightlifters, right?

Can you talk about them? Yes. The opening section of the book is on strength. And I talk about this pioneer female powerlifter named Jan Todd. And she was the first woman. She really, she broke all these. She won the first powerlifting world championship. She broke everything.

many different world records in many different weight classes lifting. And she also was the first woman to lift the stones of strength known as the Dinnie stones. And they are these Scottish stones of strength. And, you know, some people call them manhood stones because in Scottish culture, you know, there's stories of certain stones that you would lift and you, and when you were capable of lifting them, you were a man, you know, you are not no longer a boy, you are a man. And so there was this idea of like, if,

If a woman could lift these manhood stones, then what did that mean? Right. It was it. I think that a lot of sort of the resistance to women being strong over the course of history, physically strong, is that there's an association between

of physical strength with other kinds of strength, right? Other kinds of power, because for the longest time, physical strength is how you demonstrate power, how you demonstrate that you have power and influence in a society, in a community, and that you should be rewarded for that, right? So there's a lot to unpack, and that's in the book. But I think what's so wonderful about Jan's story is that she did not know how

how strong she was. And part of that, you're kind of like, oh, well, how did she get so strong? And the important thing to realize about her story is that

And many people's sort of this like undiscovered sword in the stone, you know, King Arthur kind of discovery thing is that many people are not given the chance to discover their abilities. And in this case, clearly at the time in which she was growing up and, you know, she was in college in the 70s and she was like Title IX. It wasn't around, you know, she wasn't doing sports. There were no sports for her to play, even though she was like the fastest kid in her school life.

And she knew that she was strong, but she did not have the opportunity to discover exactly how strong she was until she started lifting. And...

Then she's just, she's had an extraordinary run. I mean, like she was, Sports Illustrated called her, you know, the world's strongest woman. And she was able to do all of these incredible feats. And then since then, she's become a very respected sports historian. And she's at UT Austin and she co-founded the Stark Center, which is one of the few like institutions

international, like IOC sponsored, like research centers, you know, because it has so much about sports history and specifically strength sports. Just how across history, women have been not allowed to be strong, not given the same opportunities, but that's obviously has been changing over

And is changing even faster now. Right. And so I think for someone to occupy a body in which she was able to not only inhabit that and understand what how transformational being able to demonstrate strength was for her as a woman in the world, but then to be a scholar and to be able to write and talk about those changes for women across these decades has been I think that she's just such an interesting and influential person to talk about that.

And she also runs the events for the Arnold Strongman, you know, and strong, strong woman competitions. And it's because of her that this, that these, that the female portion of these competitions really exists because she was the first one to demonstrate that that's possible. And now she administers all of these events for the, for the Arnold Strongman. And so it's just really, I think that her story is, is so, uh,

revealing of the changes that can happen, you know, and for the better. And she actually, I was just talking to her yesterday and she said, I just came back from the Arnold. I think it was the best competition we've ever had. And all these women, she said, all these women just kept breaking these, you know, lifting like 600 plus pounds. And she just was so over the moon about, I think,

Being really proud that this is what we're seeing and the sky is still the limit because we haven't hit that yet. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. Are you still putting off saving and investing because you'll get to it someday? Stash turns someday into today.

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Investing involves risk. Offer is subject to terms and conditions. Well, agreed. I think it's such a tremendous time for women of all ages, including girls.

Muscle resistance training is a vehicle for self-esteem, for a positive body image. And this wasn't a thing years ago at all. No, it wasn't. And I think about the rugby player Alona Marr, who basically I think she single-handedly has changed the conversation around muscle because she's both this incredible athlete, just strong.

strong and beautiful and just like a force of nature on the field. And she's able to be so, I think she also has this very, she's like Lucille Ball. I think she has this comic and charismatic personality in which she's able to both be like talk about

Yeah.

These two things have long been seen in opposition. They're not. They really aren't. And she has done so much for girls. You talk about being a role model for girls who are coming up now. And this is so important for them to see that because to see that that is something that they can be and shouldn't feel bad about. And she's pretty verbal and vocal about that. And I think that because she talks about how when she was a big, strong kid growing up,

And playing sports that she didn't have someone to look up to who was telling her that it was okay to be big and strong, to be a big, strong girl and dominate in sports in that way. What I think is so amazing is you mentioned beautiful and feminine. And those words were often linked together, but now they're linked with strong.

beautiful and feminine. Strong can exist. It makes me so happy. Yeah. Yeah. Because, and, and, you know, you've heard this, I've heard this, we've talked about this, we touched on this a little bit where, where,

When you're a woman in the world, you know, you might be told that you should exercise, but don't lift too much because you'll get bulky. Don't get too big or you'll be seen as masculine. So hard to do, by the way. You know how hard it is to do that? It's like, it's extraordinarily difficult and rare to get bulky, period. You have to work really hard. Yeah.

You have to be focused on getting bulky to get bulky because it's not going to happen. Certainly, we've been told that like for women, that there is like an upper limit, you know, for what we should be in terms of size. And so I think that's getting exploded more because we have to lift heavy to see the benefits, the maximum benefits of health. So I think that that's something that's beginning to break through in a really great way because it's

People who I people I know who wouldn't have particularly like even been interested that much in exercise are lifting more now because they understand that that's something that they're they should be doing. So I think like some of the health benefits, the signal of.

Lifting heavy being really important for you as you get older has kind of broken through a little bit, helped to break through that stereotype of women should only be like, you know, toned or like have a Pilates body like long and lean or whatever. Like that's just...

I think part of that is all the health science that is underscoring the idea of lifting heavy being good for everyone. So just to double click on that, I absolutely agree. I think there was perhaps a double standard where a woman could be right about this in the book, be potentially, quote unquote, too muscular.

in the eyes of some and it feels like that's no longer the case. There is still a lot of pushback for women being too muscular. I still think that I don't want to say that that is gone because all of that stereotyping and all of that like putting you in your box and beauty...

standards and ideals, it's still out there. It's still being put forward by some subset of society. But I think that the direction that many of us are moving in, there's enough cultural force, there's enough of the idea that women should be strong and really strong and lift and lift heavy. It's like gathering momentum enough to kind of like push that out of the frame, if that makes sense. And I kind of like this

the sense of like the push and pull, because there's always that, right? There's always going to be some resistance to that. But I think there's more of it in the direction that, that we're talking about. That is really important that we, that we like to see. You may have to do a research trip to Miami because we've got some very strong women here. Awesome. I bet. So we we've talked about many of the benefits. I'm curious in researching the book of all the benefits, what really stood out to you? For me,

for building strong muscle. Yeah. I think some of the benefits that we don't really, again, like because of this historic binary dichotomy between like a healthy brain and a healthy bot, like having this division between brain and body and muscle and body and how like if you were like,

Really, if you were smart, you wouldn't be muscular. And if you were a big, strong athlete, muscle head, people used to call it that, that you were not intelligent. And it's funny because societally, culturally, that kind of still persists. There is still this idea of people telling athletes to stay in their lane when they speak about other things besides being an athlete and being smart.

body in the world because they are people with opinions and intelligence and I think that sometimes there's still that funny sort of political separation. But what I learned from a scientific and research and physiological standpoint of aging and longevity with muscle, like the correlation of a

of mental acuity as you get older is with so highly, highly correlated with physical strength and muscle and muscle mass and how much you are exercising. Because again, like we were talking about earlier, like your muscles are, your muscles are endocrine tissue. They're constantly sending out messengers all around, you know, to different parts of your body, telling them to do the job that they need to be doing.

And they are, when you move and you exercise, they are sending these myokines to your brain to promote brain health, to stimulate areas of your brain to be active and to be doing the things into old age, older age. And if you're not moving, if you're not getting up and moving your body, your brain does not get that beautiful wash of messengers and chemicals from your muscles.

And vice versa, right? Everything is kind of like is in this beautiful like loop. And I think that what with our...

It's so complicated, right? There's so many factors. But I think that that is like, if you think about building, bulking up your muscles, bulks up your brain, I think that's just such a great way to think about it. It's literally true, right? I know you've had many, many guests who've underscored this science behind it. Your hippocampus, you know, being the center of learning and memory, like it's just...

It grows when you exercise, when you move your muscles. And to know that, like, I think to just be to have that knowledge is very empowering to be like, I am not just moving my body to make it stronger.

strong. I'm strengthening my brain for my future, for now and forever. And I think there's a reason why exercise feels good, right? It feels good when you move your body, you feel joyful when you're jumping around. And I think that the more that we can do things with our body that are fun and playful, like this is sending a message to ourselves that this is something that's good for us, you know, and there's a reason why that happens.

And

What was the biggest surprise when you were researching the book? Maybe it's a study, maybe it's filled with great anecdotes. What really stood out to you where you thought, hey, this is really interesting? I didn't know that the age-related loss of muscle started so early. I really didn't. I did not know that when you're in your 30s, you're already starting to lose that muscle mass. And so you actually need to be working against that trend

from, I mean, as early as possible. And so I think that that was something that was really surprising to me. But also that the fact that even if you start later, even if you don't start till today, you're still going to get the benefits. And I think that's very hopeful. Like, I think that's very encouraging and inspiring that, you know, we've all seen these stories of

of, you know, the, you know, seven-year-old grandma who starts lifting because her kid's like, you got to start, you know, you have to start training and, and I don't want you, I want you to be healthy. And, you know, drops all the meds now can take the flights of stairs, no aches and pains, you know, just it's, it's, I think the transformation that that can occur

with your body, with muscle, strengthening it is amazing. Yes, agreed. And it just, it does get a little bit harder as you're older, but you can still experience results for sure, 100%. And you can still feel so...

you can still feel so much better because you've done it. I think that's also really, you know, we talked about some of this, this, this, these ideas of like capability and just feeling really confident and who can't use more of that. I know that,

Yeah, I was just talking to a friend. I was in the gym the other day and I was doing this deadlift. And again, like this kind of lifting, heavy, heavy weightlifting is new to me, right? It's relatively new to me. I've been swimming my whole life and I've been doing some form of weight training to some extent over the years, but...

It was not something like this kind of focused, heavier weight training, the power lifts, right? And I just was, I loved this feeling of like setting up for the lift. You know, it's this marshalling of all of your resources. And then when you kind of go down and you pick up the weight, you feel, I felt like this amazing current from my head to my toes, like just being, feeling like totally grounded and like present in the world. And I just thought that was amazing.

You know, you don't really feel that that often, like this grounding presence. And when you do, you're just like here and now in this moment. And I think that's just, I keep thinking about that. I keep thinking about how great that feeling is and how centering it is for me from a mental health standpoint. You know, like it just is just a moment in the day in which I feel here.

And I'm real, you know, and I think that's really beautiful. It is. The way you speak about it, the way you write about muscle in the book, it feels almost meditative. And it's much bigger than just, you know, going to the gym and trying to crank out a workout mindlessly with your headphones on. And what I love so much about this is, you know, metaphorically, like, it's much bigger than just building muscle.

It's emotional. It's mental. It's spiritual in some ways. You don't hear a lot of people talk about grounding and doing a heavy lift.

And when I read the book, it kind of reframed how I think about working out and muscle and everything it represents. That makes me so happy. You know, I really did want to do that. And of course, I didn't know exactly when I set out to do it. I didn't really know how it was going to happen, right? So I knew I wanted to examine muscle in this very moment.

surround sound way, right? But what were the stories? Who were the people? What were the themes? What were the... How would it all hang together? And of course, every book is different. And it did feel quite difficult. It did feel like I felt...

The effort. I mean, it was effortful in many ways. And I think fitting for the task at hand and the topic at hand to examine this, not just the tangible stuff of muscle, but what it means to us all, like the metaphor, like all like the cultural meaning across time, because this is not just. And when I say just, it is the stuff that actually is like the stuff of movement and motion and how we this is how we exert ourselves on the world.

and exert our influence on the world, but also metaphorically, this is how we exert our influence on the world. So what does it mean to show that?

I was thinking about grip strength. Okay, so grip strength, as you know, is one of those things that is so indicative of health and longevity and sort of is like a funny marker. I mean, you talk about surprises. I was very interested to learn that it's so correlated with longevity. Yes.

But then not just that, it's think about it. When you shake hands with someone, it's a greeting and you're kind of taking the measure of someone else. Like who's gripping it harder? You know, like everyone knows that feeling of like when someone is maybe gives you a limp noodle of a handshake.

And what do you think of that person? Or if they give you a firm one, crisp one, you have a positive association with it. I mean, it's like everything we do in life comes back to something that our muscles are doing. Even something as simple and universal as a handshake. I mean, it's just really...

That, to me, is a great example of how we don't think about and take for granted what our muscles allow us to do. From the simplest greeting to all of these like little, you know, talking to you, blinking at you, waving at you, you know, just everything.

It's how we communicate. Yes. So what do you want every woman to know about muscle? Oh, it's for you. Really, that strength is for you. And I think that you don't have to look a certain way for it to be for you. It's about what it allows you to do best.

more and better. And it is about feeling capable. It is about relying on yourself. I mean, I talk about in the book with my dad teaching me all of these exercises. I mean, we did like

push-ups and pull-ups and everything from elementary school. I mean, we were crazy. My dad was crazy and also wonderful. I mean, it was this kind of like quirky muscle academy that we were doing. I love it. He sounds awesome, by the way. He's my type of guy. You should see what I make our kids do. I'm going to send you a photo of him. You are going to be like, what? Who is this guy? He looks, I mean, he's just right. Muscle is fountain of youth. That's him. What I learned from him is

not just about lifting heavy things. It's about lifting myself. And I think that's a message that I want to send out there with this book because

Lifting and getting stronger and building muscle is not about... The most important thing is not about how it makes you look, although, of course, that can help you build confidence. It's about what it allows you to do. So that is about capability and ability and feeling that you are an agent. You have agency in the world. And I think that that is something that we all...

you know, really need to feel. Amen. Bonnie, we covered so much today. Other than picking up the book, I'll hold it up on muscle. Is there anything we didn't cover that you want to cover before we wrap up? I want to know what your favorite muscle is. What are your favorite muscles?

muscles that you think about. And also, I think that you associate with yourself, because I think one of the things that was so fun about researching muscle was that learning that muscles have different real personalities, right? They do different things. And so when we think about them, we attribute different qualities to them.

And I wanted to know what you think about. You know, I don't know if I have a favorite. If I were to go back in time... So I played basketball in college and everyone loves to jump high. And you equate that with the calf. So I would...

My quick gut reaction would probably be the calf muscle because that was usually associated with one's ability to jump. Right. And so that's what I would say. Today, probably not. You know, who knows? Most men would probably say arms. That's my guess. You know what, though? My husband's calves were the first muscles I noticed about him because he would bike around.

Really? Yeah. And he had like soccer player calves and he would bike around and I would see those calves and think,

That's a good looking set of calves. So don't knock them. No, I don't. I think they're generally... I'm going to make a huge generalization. I think most great athletes probably... I can't think of... I'm visualizing on my head of all the great male athletes. I can't think of a great male athlete who didn't have strong calves. If I'm thinking...

And I'm thinking probably, you know, basketball, football, like the sports that I track and feel like I just, I can't think of one. So to me, it's, I think I value athleticism as being a former athlete. So that's what...

You know, you can kind of have, you always see people, you see guys at the gym, you could tell like that can be, you know, have the muscles, but like they don't like the cat. I don't know. That's for me. It's the, the calves I think are a little bit harder to get or maybe, or maybe signify athleticism. And now, now I don't know what I'm saying. I love also like the cross admiration of athletes to, to,

like across sports to the muscles um that they admire like i think i always think about i think it was in the olympics when i think kevin durant went to watch like so many people went to watch simone biles and he i i'm pretty sure he said something like i wish i had cows like that so yeah yeah

I think in the early 2000s, I was living in Washington, D.C., and this is when Michael Jordan was making a comeback and playing for the Wizards. And every once in a while, he was living above the gym I went to. And every once in a while, I would see him at the gym at 7 a.m. They could have played the night before, and he'd be there lifting at 7 a.m. And I just remember being in awe of his physicality.

and his muscles and his butt and his work ethic where I almost had the view where if I didn't know that was Michael Jordan, you looked at him and said, that person is an exceptional athlete. Right. Just the grace, right? I mean, there's something, so that's something we didn't talk about today, which was grace, right? Like you're talking about a person, you're talking about Michael Jordan. Let's say you didn't know it was him. You still knew

That he was a person who inhabited his body with something incredible, like an exceptional grace probably is what it is. And what is grace? It's like this...

coordination, right, of all of the muscles. But in a way that is exhibits a kind of efficiency and minimal wasted movement kind of thing, right? It's like a refinement of all of the movements. It's about the control. And I loved thinking about what that was, actually, in terms of muscle, because we know it when we see it. But what is it? Like, it's

There's something, it's as if that person is moving through the world effortlessly. But we also know that nothing is effortless when it comes to physical movement. And so what went, what is behind all of that? It's years and years of practice and discipline and refinement of those movements such that they appear to be that way. And I think that's also important.

what it is. It's the work behind it that you don't see. I think you're hitting on the athleticism. You know, we watch a lot of women's basketball, women's volleyball, women's soccer in our house. We have two little girls. They love those sports. And it's just the strength of these women and how quickly, but also it looks so effortlessly. And they're also so forceful in

And it is just, to your point, all the work that is required to move so quickly, so strongly, and have it look so effortlessly. That I think is what I'm in awe of. It's gorgeous. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, at the same time, while striving for that, I think it's okay to show your work, right? To show the work. And I think that's what

muscle is and what muscle kind of reminds you of, that it is like your work on display, kind of. And that's okay. That's a good thing. It does take that investment and it does take that dedication. And that's kind of beautiful. Yes. And it's amazing that girls and women of all ages can watch that on TV now.

It didn't happen years ago. Yeah, we didn't get to do that. We didn't get to do that. So I'm glad that they get to have that. Well, Bonnie, thank you so much. Love the book, On Muscle. Everyone pick it up. Thank you. It was great to talk to you.