601: How to improve GLP-1 levels, naturally | Colleen Cutcliffe, Ph.D.
39:21 Share

Welcome to the MyBodyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wachub, founder and co-CEO of MyBodyGreen, and your host. This episode of the MBG podcast was made in partnership with Pendulum. If you care about gut health, you need to know about acromancia. Since its discovery in 2004, over 4,500 papers have been published on the strain, finding that it's essential for keeping a strong gut lining, supporting metabolism, improving digestive regularity, and maintaining healthy weight. But here's the catch. To date, it has not

been found in food. The only place it occurs naturally is breast milk. Thanks to an innovative delivery system, Pendulum is the first company in the market to offer live acromantia as a daily probiotic. Learn more at PendulumLife.com backslash MBG and get 20% off all Pendulum product subscriptions on first orders.

Discount apply to checkout. That's P-E-N-D-U-L-U-M-L-I-F-E dot com slash mbg. Learn more at PendulumLife.com slash mbg and get 20% off all Pendulum product subscriptions on first orders. Discount apply to checkout. That's P-E-N-D-U-L-U-M-L-I-F-E dot com slash mbg.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two-factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast for 40% off. Terms apply.

Fatigue, blood sugar spikes, weight gain. These symptoms may all trace back to one surprising source, your gut.

In today's show, we're diving into the science of the microbiome with Dr. Colleen Cutliffe, a biochemist, microbiologist, and the co-founder of Pendulum Therapeutics, a company at the forefront of microbiome science. With a PhD from Johns Hopkins and years of experience in biotech, Colleen blends scientific expertise with a deeply personal mission to help people, starting with her own daughter, heal from the long-term impacts of antibiotic use and gut imbalance.

In our conversation, we unpack how a healthy microbiome supports everything from blood sugar regulation to energy levels and why disruptions to the system can lead to cravings, chronic illness, and even food sensitivities. We'll also explore how certain microbes can naturally stimulate GLP-1, the same hormone mimicked by today's popular weight loss drugs, and what to look for when choosing a truly effective probiotic. This is a fascinating convo about the next frontier of health where microbiome science meets metabolism. Let's get to it.

So let's start by sharing your personal journey. You know, what sparked your passion for the microbiome, which ultimately led you to co-found Pendulum? Sure. I've always kind of been a scientist and interested in health, starting with getting a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology from Johns Hopkins.

I did a pretty traditional postdoc at Northwestern. We were looking for markers for kids' kidney tumors. Then I moved out to the San Francisco area where I worked in a pharma company developing drugs for Parkinson's disease. Then I joined a startup company like everybody does in the Bay Area. And that company was building a DNA sequencing instrument for

And I ran biology there and that company went through rapid growth and went public. And on the other side of that IPO, I started Pendulum. And so I've always been on this journey of how do we create products that can really help various health issues? And so in that vein, being in health was nothing new for me or my career.

But the microbiome was particularly interesting because of two things. The first was the technology that's enabled the microbiome to be a science. So probiotics and yogurts have been on the shelves forever, but they actually haven't been steeped in new microbiome science, which comes out of DNA sequencing. And so because DNA sequencing has become like a

tool that lots of people can use, we now have microbiome as a real science. And over the last 20 years, you'll start to see all these publications and all this knowledge about the 99.9% of the microbiome that isn't on the shelves today. And so for me, that was a really interesting science problem. What are the 99.9% of microbes that aren't on the shelves today that could really be helping people? And how can we start to help people with very specific,

designer, next generation probiotics. And the second thing was, so that was sort of a technical professional reason, but the second thing was actually quite personal. And that was that my first daughter was born almost two months prematurely. She was four and a half pounds when she was born. She was in intensive care for the first month of her life as a first time parent. That was incredibly traumatizing. And they had her hooked up to all these machines and monitors, and they were giving her multiple doses of antibiotics.

not because she was sick, but because she was so fragile, they didn't think she could take an infection. And so these probiotics were a part of her regimen, a part of every preemie's regimen in the hospital. And when we took Annabella home, ostensibly a healthy child, we started to notice things about her as she got older that were different from the rest of our family. And this publication came out that showed that babies who were on a lot of antibiotics were

later on in life were more prone to chronic illnesses. And the Mayo Clinic repeated that and showed that if you're under two years old and you're on a lot of antibiotics, later on in life, you're more prone to obesity, diabetes, allergies, asthma, ADHD, celiac disease. So all these things that come up later in life because you've decimated the microbiome very early in life. And so then I was like, okay,

We got to start this company because I could help millions of people with these products, including my own child. And that's what inspired me to launch this. So what do we know about the microbiome today in terms of assessing one's health? How does one get a baseline understanding of microbiome?

how's my microbiome well first of all i think one of the things that we've learned in this 20 years of research is that the microbiome appears to be integral to a lot of different systems in the body so traditionally there are 11 organ systems in the body that's in the medical and biological textbooks we now know the microbiome is linked to every single one of them and so having a healthy microbiome is actually about being at the core of all of the different systems in your body

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people trying to capitalize on telling you information about your microbiome that may not necessarily be so usable. And so we've done a lot of testing of the microbiome tests that are out there. And I would say that, you know, the first thing to note is it's really great to go through this journey with a practitioner who's knowledgeable about the microbiome because they can really help guide you. But the second thing is that most of the microbiome tests out there are based

not giving you deep information that's really going to help guide you on your health journey. And I hate to say that because I really am a fan of the microbiome tests, and the more people take them, the more information we get. But a single microbiome test in one day, one moment, actually doesn't give you enough information to make good choices off of. Agreed. I've heard the same thing over and over. Exciting but early and wide variety of results.

With that said, is it a feeling? Is it, I feel good. My labs are good. I have regular stool movements. How does one assess? Or on the flip side, is it,

I don't feel great or there's something I'm dealing with. And not only should I treat whatever ailment it is locally, but I should also treat my microbiome accordingly. Absolutely. So we've like kind of built all these amazing biohacker tools to measure everything in your body. And you see people wearing all these different devices. But actually, one of the most popular

potent diagnostic test that we have is our own poop. And so that is kind of the first indication that you might have something wrong with your GI system or your microbiome. And so it's funny because I'll ask you this question, you know, have you ever pooped and then turned around and looked in the toilet to try to look at your poop? Oh, I do it all the time just to get an idea of your point. Like what is what do my stools look like? Is my GI system functioning well or something off?

And we're all doing it all the time. And like, we're annoyed when there's too much toilet paper in there and you can't see your poop, right? And so this really is, you're getting daily baseline information about your microbiome and the health of your insides, literally. And so I think when you start to have things like increased diarrhea or constipation or gas or bloating or food sensitivities, you're now sensitive to foods that you used to be able to eat. These are all indications that you don't have an optimal microbiome. But then to the point that I was making about

the microbiome being connected to these 11 systems, there are other things now that can tell you that you might not have a healthy microbiome. And so at Pendulum, we've been really focused on the gut metabolism axis. So if you are feeling, if your A1C is high, if your blood glucose spikes are high, if you're feeling...

But maybe to get down to the much more practical, if you eat lunch and then you have that post-afternoon sluggishness, like you're not as smart in a 2 p.m. meeting as you are in an 8 a.m. meeting, this is another sign that your body isn't really metabolizing glucose properly. Again, if you have food sensitivities or you're gaining weight in a way that you used to not gain weight or you're having a hard time losing weight,

All of these are signs that your metabolism is not optimal and that could be linked to your microbiome. And that's what we've been really focused on showing is that there are certain changes you can make to your microbiome that will increase your energy, that will increase your sustained energy so you don't have that post-lunch brain fog that will also help you with cravings around food. So there's a lot of ways in which you can improve your metabolism simply through your microbiome.

Let's spend some time on that. I think that's very interesting. And I think traditionally, people used to tend to think of, oh, microbiome, healthy. I understand its relation to the immune system. Everyone anecdotally has a story around, you know, too much antibiotics and a week and then I became vulnerable and so forth. I had to reset the gut. I think most people get that. But I think it's so interesting, given the rise of GLP-1s, how...

the microbiome is influencing weight regulation and how it can contribute to obesity. It is amazing because when we started our company over a decade ago, it's like 12 years ago, we would talk about the GLP-1 pathway and nobody knew what it was. And now it's awesome because everybody knows what GLP-1 is. And

the thing that maybe a lot of people don't know is that all the drugs that are out there, all the GLP-1 drugs are named GLP-1 drugs because they're actually mimicking, they're drugs that are mimicking your body's natural GLP-1 hormone. So your body actually makes its own GLP-1. It,

stimulates it after you've eaten food. And so after you eat food, your GLP-1 levels go up in your bloodstream. That tells your brain, hey, we're full. We don't have to eat anymore. And it tells your cells that we need to start to metabolize the sugar that was just eaten. And then it'll go down over time. You'll get hungry again. You'll eat. And then your GLP-1 hormone will go up. And so your body naturally produces GLP-1 in this

sort of rhythm. And these drugs are mimicking that. And you're sort of injecting into your body very high levels of this GLP-1 mimic so that you're kind of off the cycle. And so you're getting this constant messaging of we're full and we should metabolize all the sugars we ate. And that's why people have these sort of very immediate dramatic responses to the drugs. But your body actually does this on its own. And so you have this other pathway that you could be targeting. And maybe the most important thing about that is

It's your microbiome that stimulates GLP-1. And so you might not be making the right amount of GLP-1 hormone because you're missing these microbes. And if you gave it back to yourself, now you're back on the GLP-1 train of your own. So I think you've got everyone's attention. If we could foster GLP-1 naturally through our microbiome, I think everyone would opt for that.

over a pharmaceutical, not to say the pharmaceuticals are bad, but I think people would probably opt for a natural way to do it. So how do we do so? So, well, first of all, we actually, I don't want to be like anti on the drugs because there are people with diabetes that need to be on the drugs. And there's a way to actually do both. You could have the drugs, but then also have your, you know, stimulate your body's natural way. So there are two strains. So I'll tell you the two secret sauce ingredients to look for. There are two strains that have been published to date that have been shown to be able to directly stimulate GLP-1 production.

One is called acromancymeucinophila, and the other is called clostridium butyricum. So if you're looking for strains that can directly stimulate GLP-1, those are the strains that can do it. And then if you're looking at prebiotics, which are the food that feed these microbes, there are a variety of prebiotic fibers and polyphenols that help enhance the growth of these two strains that will then also help you improve your GLP-1 production. So acromancia. Let's talk about acromancia.

I've known about acromantia for years. I've had people who are very passionate about longevity

say to me, you've got to check your acromantia. You know, if you, if you don't have the appropriate levels of acromantia and you get really sick, maybe cancer, you're not going to make it. But if you're good on your acromantia, studies show like your body will be resilient enough to beat the cancer or beat whatever it is. Like you have to have to pay attention to acromantia, but I'm not the expert you are. Tell us.

Acromantia has become known as a keystone strain, meaning it is one of the most important strains in your microbiome because it plays a variety of functions. And to your point, it all started with these correlative studies where people were saying, well, if you go through cancer or immunotherapy and you have higher levels of starting acromantia, you appear to respond better or you don't have to do as many rounds of treatment. There was also a really cool study that showed that they

took all these people and they put them on the same diet. So a calorie restricted diet that had, you know, less fats and sugars and just a normal diet. But they found that the people who had higher starting levels of acromantia actually responded to the diet better. So you've ever wondered, like, why could two people go on the same diet and one person loses all this weight, the other person doesn't? What this study showed was that the people who lost more weight were actually starting out with more levels of acromantia.

So that started to get people pretty interested in, okay, well, what is this thing doing? And it comprises a pretty substantial portion of the healthy microbiome. And so you've got a lot of it. So what is it doing?

And what it boils down to is two really important things that that acromancy does. The first we kind of just delved into, which is that it stimulates GLP-1. And GLP-1 is important for your metabolism, for your food cravings, for how your body metabolizes sugars, which is a core fundamental to not only your metabolic health, but your cardiovascular health. So it plays that role in stimulating GLP-1. But the other thing it does is

is it is literally responsible for the structure of your gut lining. And so if you think about your gut lining like a wooden fence that has all these wooden planks that are held together by glue, I have a wooden fence in my backyard. And when we first moved in, it was awesome. It was really strong. But what can happen over time and through just weather patterns is that that glue can start to thin and a plank, they start to weaken and one could fall and then you've got a leaky fence.

And so you want to have good upkeep of your wooden fence. Well, your gut lining structurally is literally the same. You have these epithelial cells. Those are the planks. They're held together by glue, which is called mucin. And acromantia is the only strain that's ever been shown to literally be at that mucin layer. And all day and all night, all it does is it strips away the old glue when it gets old.

and it puts up new glue and it keeps your fence strong. And that's important because when you get a fence that is leaky in your gut and you start to have molecules going in and out of it, then you start to have issues with your inflammation, your immune response, pathogens and GI issues. And so it's just a terrible thing. You don't want a hole in the fence of your gut lining. And acromion

is the only guy we know of so far whose job it is to keep the structure of that gut lining by regulating this glue. And the other thing about acromancy that makes it interesting is because it lives right at that mucin layer and it's constantly removing and replenishing the glue is it also plays this signaling role. So it's right there where all the signaling is happening. So it just plays this outsized function in our gut health through regulating the gut lining and stimulating GLP-1. We talked about the stool test briefly and I've done them all.

And, you know, my doctors pretty much said the same thing, like, don't take it with a grain of salt. But literally the first thing I would look for in the test is my levels of acromantia. That's where I went. I've been trained. Well, they put them at the top now. So if you get a stool test, I feel like they're always like on the first page. Yeah. But like, that's what I look for. Some other stuff, whatever. My acromantia is good. So how do we get it?

So lots of people have been trying to figure out what are, well, let me start by saying this. There are foods that you can eat that can help stimulate the growth of acromantia. So foods that are high in fiber. So think about the produce section of your grocery store, all those leafy greens, you know, all of those that are high in fiber are able to increase the amount of acromantia in your microbiome. And then also things that are high in polyphenols.

So, you know, raspberries, pomegranates, green tea, there's a bunch of sources of polyphenols. There's also been studies that show that if you can increase your dietary intake of polyphenols, then you can also increase your levels of acromantia. But what happens when you have no acromantia left or you're trying to do the one-two punch of, I want to take those prebiotics that feed my acromantia, but I also want to get acromantia directly? Well, people have been looking all over for what foods actually have acromantia in it. And to date, acromantias

But acromancy hasn't been found in any food except for one, and that is mother's breast milk. And so the current theory is you get it from your mom and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to lose it. And so until recently, that's the only way you could get acromancy. And so one of the things that we did as a company was to figure out how to manufacture acromancy. So if you imagine it's sitting in the recesses of your gut microbiome, it lives in this mucin layer. It has to eat that mucin. Like it's just in this very weird place.

And so to be able to actually manufacture it is quite a technological challenge. And so we spent years actually figuring out how to make it and then brought acromantia to the market as a, you know, live acromantia probiotic that you can now supplement. You did. You are the one. You need acromantia. You are the go-to. And so I want to take a step back again and like touch on the microbiome and it's connected to everything. And what's your view on,

on diet in terms of, again, I think it's hard to generalize, but if you had to generalize in terms of, I want to eat a diet that is probably going to be good for my microbiome, what should we enjoy versus what should we limit?

Or try to avoid. Well, nutrition is one of the most potent ways you can impact your microbiome. So it is actually really important what you're eating. I mean, these guys are all living inside you. What you eat is deciding who grows and who doesn't.

So I've already mentioned, but things that are high in fiber and polyphenols are really good for boosting these microbes that actually stimulate your butyrate production. So foods that are high in fiber and polyphenols are really great for you. Acromantia actually thrives off of the mucin, the glue, which is actually a beef byproduct or a meat byproduct. And so it's not terrible to get, you know, ingestion of mucin.

meats and proteins in that way. And I know there's a lot of camps that kind of go extreme in these different directions. I would say probably one of the most important things for your microbiome is the resilience of your microbiome. And what I mean is that if you're having food sensitivities or you're cutting out a bunch of different things in order to try to just, you know,

make it through the day without having to be in the bathroom all day long. Or when you get stressed, you have all these GI issues. One of the goals that everyone should have for their microbiome is resilience. And how do you have a resilient microbiome? It's through the diversity of these different functions. And how do you get the diversity of these different functions? It's through diversity of diet. And so probably the most important thing is like,

Don't eat the same thing every day. Try to diversify your fibers, your polyphenols, your protein intake. And then the sort of obvious things to avoid, like processed foods are really not good for the microbiome. They are artificially created things that your microbiome, you know, isn't used to figuring out how to metabolize. And so I think that's probably there's some really good evidence that processed foods are good.

pretty detrimental. This episode of the MBG podcast was made in partnership with Pendulum. Fortify your gut health with Pendulum's Acromantia. Featuring the live probiotic strain Acromantia, this supplement helps counter the impact that diet, lifestyle, and stress can have in your gut lining. The results? Pendulum's Acromantia can improve digestion, reduce food cravings, and even help stimulate GLP-1 production based on preclinical studies.

So what's on your go-to shopping list in terms of diversity? Are there certain food groups or services

certain vegetables or lean proteins that you prioritize, that you try to get in, that you always try to have in your rotation? Yeah, we definitely have a lot of the big leafy greens in our rotation. So I grew up in the South, so I'm always pushing collard greens in our house. So collards are great for you. Kale is great. Asparagus, all of those in the produce section are really good. I just happen to love those

particular vegetables. But I think anything that you can get into the rotation that's in that green leafy area is fantastic. If you have great recipes for Jerusalem artichokes, otherwise known as sunchokes, those are amazing for your microbiome. And then in terms of berries, there's berries at every dinner at our house. We've got raspberries, blueberries, blackberries, pomegranate seeds. So all of those are great to have in the rotation as well. So something else

And I like that you also called out meat previously, like diversity. I think diversity is key here. Is that safe to say? And that I think the danger sometimes we see in our world is something becomes in vogue and there's a certain way of eating. And often that involves restricting certain food groups that, you know, this over here is the devil and it's going to kill you or do X, Y and Z. And then we restrict that.

I think there's consensus that ultra processed foods are probably not good for you.

And you should try to avoid them. But when it comes to whole foods, it feels like all of them. Enjoy whole foods in its entirety. That's right. Enjoy all of them in its entirety. Don't hone in on one thing specifically. And I'll just get on like my soapbox about the gluten-free craze, which is that, I mean, there are definitely people who need to be gluten-free and they have a true allergic reaction. But

All of a sudden, there's all these products and people who are randomly going gluten-free. One thing to remember is that, again, you're feeding the microbes in your microbiome. And if you don't eat something, those microbes are going to die. And so you can actually make your body gluten-sensitive by not eating gluten. And so what you don't want to do is to do these random restrictions. And then all of a sudden, you've created a sensitivity that didn't exist before because you've reduced the diversity of your microbiome. Yes, and I love that you used the word resilience earlier.

And I think also I interviewed someone months ago and we were talking about sleep. And he was like, I want people to be resilient sleepers because, you know, and I'm this cliche sometimes you can't always have like the perfect electronic sundown and your kids are in bed and your eight sleep is perfectly cool. And you've had a pleasant, you know, evening. And no, like sometimes like you need to be a resilient sleeper. Stop like your microbiome. You need to treat the same way. You need to be resilient. You need to throw a wrench in there every once in a while.

You can't create a perfect environment for your microbiome because the world just doesn't work that way. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the resilience piece allows you to live because we know that when people travel, when their circadian rhythm changes, all of these things lead to microbiome depletions. And so what are you going to do? Are you going to stay in your house for the rest of your life? I mean, it just feels like you have to have resilience and get out there and do things.

And so on that note, you know, you mentioned your daughter. And I think about resilience, getting out and doing things. Kids,

childhood. How much of our microbiome, it sounds like a lot of it's shaped in childhood, but what can we do? Because it's also not etched in stone. We have the power to change. Yeah, well, I will say just at a high level, if you're an adult, you know, all hope isn't lost. And unlike, you know, when you go get genetic testing, you're like, oh man, I have this mutation, what am I going to do about that? Nothing, you're screwed. When it comes to your microbiome,

you are actually changing it all the time and you can always change it. And it's never too late to modify your microbiome. It really is the ultimate reset and hope. If you don't like where things are today, you can actually change it directly. But you're right. At childhood, that's when a lot of the early developmental things are happening in the microbiome. And so

You know, there was a period where nurseries, everyone would have these hypoallergenic filters and antiseptic wipes and God forbid the baby ever be exposed to a single allergen. And I think very shortly after all those products became in vogue, people realized like, actually, this is

really terrible for the immune system and the training of the immune system for a baby. It has to be exposed to things to know what's safe is just part of the air and what's actually dangerous that I need to have a response to. And so the same goes for your microbiome, which is exposure, exposure, exposure. It's fine for kids to get sick.

In the dirt are all kinds of microbes that are good for them. It's fine if they've got dirty hands. There was a study that came out of Stanford that showed that people who have dogs have more diverse microbiomes than people who don't. So get that dog, let it sleep with you, cuddle it. Exposure is really great for building your microbiome. I have a couple of things to unpack there. You mentioned dogs and environment. In your view, how impactful is environment? So I'll use an example, an extreme example, but I'll use it.

let's say I've got all the diversity in the world, I'm doing all the right things, but I live in a potentially toxic environment. And, you know, there's forever chemicals all around. I'm consuming plastic. The air is not clean, so forth, versus someone else who may be eating more processed foods than ideal, but, you know, they're living in nature and they're rolling around in dirt and, you know,

avoid plastic and all those things. Like what's your take on those two examples and the role that environment can play? Well, I'd love to take that person who's rolling around the dirt and hanging out and have them eat less processed foods. But your environment very much shapes your microbiome. And when we talk about the microbiome and the depletion of the microbiome that makes you less resilient, a lot of that is these environmental exposures because what they're doing is they're, it's

essentially depleting or they're killing certain microbes. And so you're constantly fighting this battle of trying to replenish your body with these microbes. And so you see people with these kind of extreme environmental situations that have, they tend to have less diverse microbiomes and their microbes are really, they're just trying to battle these external things instead of really trying to build the overall resilience that you want. And so nutrition is the number one thing that impacts your micro, well, it's actually the number one thing that impacts your microbiome is taking an antibiotic.

The second most important thing is your nutrition. And the third is really your environment. And let's add to environment, you know, things like external forces that create stress in your life, stressors.

Stress is another really big thing that can deplete your microbiome. And so none of us can live a stress-free life. But to the extent that you can try to minimize that external stress, that is also really helpful for improving your microbiome. So on that note, we know that stress kills. What does the science say specifically about what stress does to someone's microbiome?

There have been multiple studies that show that when you are in a stressed environment and you look at a microbiome before that and then after that, that your microbiome is depleted. I think it's still unclear how that happens or why that happens. But the correlation is that when you go through periods of intense stress, your microbiome becomes depleted. And back to children, antibiotics happen with kids. If you're a parent listening and you're a

child's young and they had to do a serious round of antibiotics, what do you recommend in terms of protocol to reset the gut? Well, I would say if your kid got sick and they went on an antibiotic, it's all about replenishing. But if you know your kid's going to go on an antibiotic, so you know that they're going to have some kind of a procedure where they're going to have to take antibiotics, you can start this preparation before they even go on the antibiotics and

And so the starting point is certainly nutrition. So making sure that when they're coming off the antibiotic or even before the antibiotic, they are consuming foods with lots of fibers and polyphenols is important. Most kids, you know, don't love their veggies. And so to the extent that you can sneak these things in or get these, you know, prebiotic powders that you can like get and get into their, you know, smoothies or oatmeal, that's all really great for them.

And then also supplementing with the probiotic strains themselves is really important. We know that most of the probiotics out there are packed with lactobacillus and bifidobacterium strains. You know, those are fundamental core strains to the microbiome. And what we've really been focused on in Pendulum are the next generation strains outside of those that are also really core. So Ackermansia, as we have

been talking about is a keystone strain that does get killed by antibiotics. And so you're going to want to supplement with acromantia, you know, once you've gone on an antibiotic. And I'll just say one thing about, you know, if you know you're going to go on an antibiotic, I used to, people used to ask me like, oh, should I take my probiotics with an antibiotic? And I'd be like,

What are you crazy? Like you're just killing the thing that you're consuming. But I've I think I've been proven wrong because in the literature, there are publications showing that if you are on a probiotic and then you go on an antibiotic, somehow those people, when they go after the antibiotic, they go back onto that probiotic.

It has better uptake than if you were never on one beforehand. So there is some kind of a memory or some residual amount of those microbes that can make it through the antibiotic. So if you know you have to go on an antibiotic in the future, starting that probiotic treatment two weeks beforehand can give you, I think, a leg up on the other side. Interesting. I used to hear the same thing.

All the time. It's just like, wait till the cycle's done. Yeah, no, now I am definitely a believer. Start 2E4 and keep going all the way through, even though it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. The data shows that it is actually helpful. And so where do you think the science is evolving? I just think of the GLP-1 conversation and how it's just exploded rapidly.

And more specifically, I think people are realizing GLP-1 is this pathway in the gut. And it's not just, it's not, there's more to, you know, the pharmaceutical. It's really not. It's a, it's a peptide. It's activating something within us. I think more people are exploring ways to, to take advantage of this through lifestyle strategies.

And so where do you think this conversation is going as it relates to the microbiome and GLP-1 and your work specifically? Because I think this is the future in many ways. Well, I think there's certainly more work to be done on how can you stimulate GLP-1 production in different ways.

you know, kinds of people. So if you already have metabolic syndrome, you've got type two diabetes, there's probably, you know, a certain protocol in terms of your microbiome that involves how do you manage with these drugs alongside your body's natural GLP-1 production. But I think what we're going to learn is,

there are probably more than just two microbes that can help stimulate GLP-1 production. So I think we'll start to discover other ones and then we'll start to be able to make formulations that are really tied around this. And I think that moreover, we'll be able to figure out more precisely what are the exact prebiotics that should be paired with these probiotic formulations so that you can really just be laser focused on increasing your GLP-1 levels. But I think that the big idea though is that

Much like insulin. So insulin is a small molecule your body naturally makes. And it is also a diabetes drug that is you just literally shooting insulin into your body. And there's the same thing that's happened for people, which is that their body, for a variety of reasons, is no longer making the right amount of insulin. And so now you're injecting it in. And so the GLP-1 story is the same thing. Your body's not making the right amount of GLP-1. So when you inject it in, you start to get all those benefits.

But unlike insulin, I think what we're going to learn is that you can actually stimulate your body's natural GLP-1 through microbiome interventions naturally. So how far away do you think we are from a

a strain for every ailment, not every, but many ailments where here's your strain for anxiety. Here's your strain for GLP-1. Here's your strain for, you know, whatever it might be. Well, it's an interesting question because I think because the microbiome is so, because it's tied to all the 11 systems, we're going to find that there are specific strains like acromancy. We're going to discover more of those later.

that are tied to multiple systems. And so the idea that you could have a few core strains that are really important for all of your systems, I think will start to be something that emerges. And then you might have these things that you're adding in that are specific for, let's say, production of GABA or production of GLP-1, but that probably there's this core that should be in all of those formulations.

And I don't think we're very far away from that. The other thing, I'm curious your take on how far away we are. And I've been hearing about this for a while, fecal transplants. Well, they're already happening. I think for me, it's how far can we get away from them? Because fecal microgram transplants have been

like invaluable to the scientific community because what they tell you, so first of all, a fecal microbiome transplant is exactly how it sounds. You literally take stool from one person and put it in another person. And what you're really doing is a whole hog microbiome transplant. And they've been really instrumental in science because when you do that,

you can actually see resolution of different diseases. So like you see improved insulin sensitivity. That was the first signal that your microbiome might be involved in metabolism. You actually see improvements in... There are a bunch of studies where these fecal microbiome transplants have happened, where you see improvements in different diseases, including IBD, IBS, as I said, diabetes. However, if you're feeling an ick factor about it, it's because...

There should be an ick factor about it. A hundred percent. A hundred percent, because you're not just giving all the good stuff. All the like unknown stuff is coming along for the ride too. And so there are these case studies of a person getting a fecal microbiome transplant to treat their C. diff infection and then ending up

being obese on the other side of that because somehow there were these other strains that came along for the ride. And now this person who never really battled cravings and obesity is now battling it. And so there is a safety component to, or an unsafe component to fecal microbiome transplants. So what are you most excited about in terms of the science and what you're working on at Pendulum?

Well, I think I'm most excited about two things. The first is podcasts like this where people can start to get really educated about what are these next generation strains and what should I be looking for and starting to help people. You know, our mission is to help millions of people improve their health through the microbiome. And so for me, the most exciting thing is to start to see people getting interested and invested and educated in the microbiome and starting to learn how that can help them with their health. The second thing is, I think, you know,

So metabolism is a huge opportunity, but I think there are more opportunities for the microbiome that are to come. And, you know, just as a little teaser, you and I, we talked a little bit about stress and the gut-brain axis is another huge opportunity. You know, your gut produces massive amounts of serotonin.

dopamine, GABA, and these signals literally go to your brain. These are neurotransmitters made in your gut that make their way to your brain and affect your brain function. And so I think that's a whole nother new exciting area of research. And what has had the greatest impact on you personally in terms of changes that you've made?

You know, you're a scientist. You're discovering new things. What have you implemented in your own life? Well, the first thing is that that daughter that I told you about has been on our products since they were in the lab and she would call them our lab products. And so I have personally seen changes in my own family. And so the pendulum probiotic

My mother is on it. I'm on it. My daughters are on it. Our whole family is on it. And this is the transformation for me, which is the belief and the trust and the data that supports that the microbiome is important for your metabolic health from childhood all the way through aging, the aging process. That's the biggest change we've made is to bring these into our lives. I'm sold. Any advice for getting a six-year-old to take it?

If you got a six-year-old that can take a pill, you're in great shape. You have to pour the capsule out. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of like, what do you think we're going to be talking about in say three to five years? Like how far away is some of the science?

I think it's awfully close. I mean, I think there's a lot of good science that's happening. And now people really need to figure out how to turn those into products. Figuring out how to grow these strains is one of the biggest challenges, the manufacturing. But I think once people crack the nut on that, we can start to really get into more products. Got it.

We covered a lot today. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you want to touch on before we close? No, I would just say probably the most important thing that I hope people take away from this is that probiotics are important for your digestion, but next generation probiotics go beyond digestion. And you can literally take a probiotic to help you with your metabolism, meaning your food cravings, how your body responds to sugar intake, and that you're

tackling your brain fog and your energy levels. All of that can be done through probiotics. So probiotics really go beyond digestion and into metabolism. And that's a new discovery that we didn't know before. It's very exciting. And congratulations on everything you've done. I am a fan. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

This episode of the MBG podcast was made in partnership with Pendulum. Prioritize a healthy gut with Pendulum's Acromantia. This next-gen probiotic supplement is backed by clinical research and over 15,000 medical professionals have recommended it. Learn more at PendulumLife.com slash MBG and get 20% off all Pendulum product subscriptions on first orders. Again, that's P-E-N-D-U-L-U-M-L-I-F-E dot com slash MBG.